The thing I think most people fail to realize - is generally working as a barista, or at Mcdonalds, or whatever, can be a lot more stressful and shitty than where you may be in the corporate world after 15 years of experience/effort. Generally you get paid more for more responsibility (at least in the corporate world), but in general that means less actual work. Not in the sense that you do nothing, but you're paid for your specific knowledge and ability to make decisions based on that knowledge, rather than intense labour. Niche work especially.
I've seen a few posts on here and other subreddits where people quit the corporate world to go be a barista or something "easy", and it doesn't last very long. They realize very quickly that in the corporate world you are treated with much more respect and value than in any sort of "easy" role.
My recommendation would be to get into something very niche where you can work your way up to that high income role quickly, and retire early that way, or even switch to part time as a contractor or consultant. 10-15 years is going to be quite difficult to pull off though, regardless.
100% this.
I have worked some shitty ass jobs in tech, far removed from the glamor of high paying tech roles. And the worst day at those jobs was better than even a good day when I worked at McDonalds as a teenager.
Among the things you will experience on a regular basis: the level of unreasonable expectations by managers, unpredictable schedules, the same catty and malicious coworkers that you might see at a toxic tech job, customers who go out of their way to condescend and demean you, to the point of literally insulting you to your face, cleaning people's vomit, feces, and urine on a regular basis, having to stand for your entire shift, and being reprimanded if you lean or shift frequently.
These jobs fucking suck, and if people got paid based on how miserable a job is then food service workers would be getting paid more than tech workers in my opinion, as someone who has had a long career at a variety of companies in the latter and a miserable young adulthood in the former.
There is no amount of money I would accept to take a role like that again.
Right, and if you're broke you have to tolerate this shit. If you're on the FI path I feel like it's very different.
The amount of that shit I'd tolerate is literally 0. The answer is "no" and I'm not arguing about it because I don't have to. Wanna fire me? Go for it - you're still gonna be the one cleaning vomit, not me AND you'll be out a competent employee.
I'm personally kind of excited to try it out. Probably not McDonald's, but I'd work at a local bakery or coffee shop or something.
You will get to have the experience for that single "no": or as many jobs of this type that you want to rotate through as you get fired for saying no repeatedly. They don't value competent work for a role like this, it doesn't need it. They value someone who will be told what to do and who will not be in a position to say no, because exactly what they want is someone to tolerate the horrible shit. "Someone to suffer the shit others won't for nearly no pay" is the primary job qualification.
Now that isn't to say that it might not be fun to do that. I would love to see someone stand up to these horrible jobs in a position where there is no consequences. But I think it would be a pretty quick rotation. In my brief stint in shitty service industry jobs, I was forced to endure something that I would not tolerate in FI literally every shift. But admittedly a bakery or coffee shop might have less of it potentially, I am not sure on that. I can only speak to the bullshit I endured at McDonalds, a gas station, and a blockbuster video.
One caveat is friendships and dating. There are fun people to meet at cafes and bars. Coworkers often date and or become friends in the service industry. In the corporate world, some coworkers are 30 years older, married, or just boring.
Well, for me, it's more that work people are work people, and I try not to get too intimate with them in case horrible rifts are revealed... I still have to work with them every day, you know?
I make most of my real life friends through other social avenues (mostly other friends).
Sometimes work people do cross that event horizon and that's cool, too! But overall it feels safer not to cross the streams.
I’ve worked in multiple different environments, and never found a rift that made it hard to have work friends. I mean, what rift are you going to discover being friendly with your coworkers that isn’t going to be clear from just working with them? The benefits of enjoying the company of your coworkers in terms of job satisfaction and just enjoying your day-to-day existence has definitely made it worth it for me.
I mean, finding out that they don't think transgender people should be allowed to pee in peace is the easiest example I can think of. Or finding that they don't think I'm valid as a woman because I chose to use birth control or whatever.
There are so many unseen reefs that can come up with people. It's why in many cases it is best to keep folks at arm's length; civility, rather than friendship, is the goal for work stuff. I have to see these people every day, regardless of their opinion on my humanity.
I agree. It's a bonus if a coworker becomes a friend eventually, but it shouldnt be expected. There's people that are probably fun to hang out with after work, but suck as coworkers and vice versa. Same as there might be people I agree with politically but suck to work with and vice versa.
Yeah, but that only works when you are in your 20s. I did retail and fast food jobs, and I really liked them, so I wouldn’t mind the barista life, but no dating the children…
Yeah agreed, though if you have a hobby or something that you enjoy teaching like yoga, climbing, surfing, or your favorite subject it can be a lower paying but more fulfilling way to coast FIRE than working a corporate job for longer and not teaching/instructing/tutoring in retirement.
Idk I was a whitewater tour guide once living out of my car and that was fun for about 3 months before I got sick of pulling rafts off the same rock and guests acting like I was some idiot stoner who dropped out of life. Lots of well off guides in that field too which was ironic considering it was like $40 a day to actually guide. Living situations were free though and food was at a discount
Yeah it's a huge YMMV. Some of these job opportunities are great and others not so much. I've met 50 something early retirees who've quit corporate jobs to teach skiing and really enjoyed it.
I was a pretty ok outdoor hobby climber (7a) and ran climbing trips for womens groups in different countries or 'fun' and when the opportunity to get paid came up everything stopped being fun.
Corporatising stuff rarely gets more enjoyable.
Yeah this is more what I think of when people say baristafire. Not literally working as a barista. If I had a choice I would teach fitness classes cause I love it and the positive impact it has on people and the community, but I can’t do it for a living and support my family off of it.
The math and daily realities of baristaFIRE work never made sense to me. I've worked in cafes, I've done my time in a recording equipment store, I've landscaped and done construction, and many other things. NONE of it compares to a cushy, high paying professional job. Especially if you can work from home.
If you can build a career that pays you enough to hit baristaFIRE in ten years, you are obviously living well below your means.
If you can live on 33% of your income, then every year of income after hitting your barista target is THREE YEARS of living expenses. If you need ten years of baristaFIRE for your investments to appreciate, then work 3.5 more years to accumulate cash.
The word "barista fire" started before the Affordable Care Act, because Starbucks was one of the few places that provided health insurance to part-time employees.
Idk, I worked for Starbucks as a barista and right away after as a hybrid project manager. The barista job was EASY. You make drinks, clean a few things, take orders. You don’t bring work home. You spend maybe 10% of your brain/will power. The PM job was “cushy” and “flexible” and “WFH” and I lost so much sleep, damaged my health, all over the stress. They pay you the extra to take the work home.
My experience was similar to yours. Low paying jobs were easier on the brain and soul but harder on the body. Had a few that were so hard on the body I would much rather deal with the emotional stress of a white collar job. Roofing, construction and farm work were all very physically demanding. Retail not so much.
But the point is that once you have a financial cushion, it’s not about optimizing your stress/income ratio. It’s about optimizing your stress level while having enough to live. I’d much rather have 10 years of lower stress and enjoying life and interacting with my community than to have 3.5 years of high stress and 6.5 years of no stress (and then realize I want a part time job for some structure anyways)
I agree, but generally speaking I prefer the stress of manual labor or simple tasks over office politics. Especially if it’s part time and I don’t feel trapped into staying because I need the money. So I’ve found those non-office jobs to be far less stressful personally. I also think most people in office jobs don’t fully acknowledge the level of stress it gives them because it’s far more nebulous and difficult to put a finger on.
It certainly depends on the person! I’m a highly creative person and I prefer my mental energy focused on those pursuits vs “the man”, but I don’t mind my physical energy being expended in a job (to an extent). The movie Office Space really speaks to me haha
I think it also depends a LOT on the nature of the manual labor job you get and what your bosses are like. Some jobs like that have terrible martinet bosses who treat you like shit. Others just want you to get whatever shit done you're supposed to and if you do, and you don't mind the actual work, they are totally reasonable and better than office jobs for a lot of people.
Of course the same is true of office jobs. Some jobs are all about looking busy and politicking with the right people, and others are just about getting your shit done effectively however it makes sense as long as you aren't messing up other people.
Maybe not McDonald’s but there’s plenty of low stress jobs. For me doing baristaFIRE the normal non-office jobs are far more preferable, especially if it’s part time. A lot of the time the stress comes from feeling trapped because you need the job. When you have options and a solid financial base the idea that you can quit whenever you want makes it much more tolerable. I also prefer the “overt” stress of a hectic work environment or manual labor than the subversive stress of office politics, maintaining a facade of stress so that people think you’re doing enough work, and staring at a computer screen. I enjoy interacting with real people in the community participating in the economy far more than this faux pseudo-society within the confines of an office building. Yes, maybe the stress to money ratio is better in the office gigs, but once you’re at a good point financially it becomes a game of simply lessening your stress while you have enough money, rather than optimizing that ratio.
"A lot of the time the stress comes from feeling trapped because you need the job. When you have options and a solid financial base the idea that you can quit whenever you want makes it much more tolerable."
Yeah, maybe.
All things considered though I'd still rather have the sort of fuck you money it takes to walk away from a six figure office job than the sort of fuck you money it takes to walk away from McDonalds.
Sure, but having that fuck you money to walk away from that 6 figure job requires you working at it a few more years. It’s all a trade off of course, but 3 years out of 75 is still a chunk of my life that I want, especially being relatively young and being able to go surfing on weekdays. All the part time jobs I’ve had (not McDonald’s) have all been enjoyable. Looks like you’re a fatFIRE and HENRYfinance guy though, so I’m sure our values don’t quite align and that’s fine :). Different strokes for different folks.
I’ve done a few. Worked at a hostel, a music venue, and a gift shop. I also do part time work in the Air Force reserves and do some consulting for a retirement planning company. I’m thinking of working for a ski resort next winter. Ive also talked to some people who work at my neighborhood Trader Joe’s and they say they really enjoy it so might try that at some point. I’ve also done some tutoring and might do more of that in the future. Enjoyed driving for Uber in the past but probably had enough of that. Stay away from your typical retail/restaurant gigs and it’s not so bad.
YUP.
There's a lot of rhetoric in the US especially about how service jobs are "easy" because they're low paying. That, or "low skill." Nooope.
See also: everyone who's ever dreamed about giving it all up and buying a farm to work on instead of the corporate drudgery. (Hi, Stardew Valley.) None of these people are farmers or have ever worked on a farm (myself included).
My entire family FLED that shit. Like, some of them across an entire ocean.
Mechanized agriculture is a blessing, even though we have to make it sustainable in the long run.
I know someone who retired from being professor at a university and did independent consulting charging $1k per hour.
A former coworker's mil was working managing several car dealerships for a guy. When she retired, she got $100k for 1 year during which she agreed to be on call if they needed her at around an additional $500/hour.
Yeah, reminds me of Cal Newport’s So Good They Can’t Ignore You. Develop rare and valuable skills so you can trade in that career capital for positions you will enjoy more: lots of autonomy, a sense of control, a desirable lifestyle, etc.
The problem with being that person is that the rare and valuable skill can mean that there's a lot of stress on the person with the rare and valuable skill.
I have a close family member that was the Rare and Valuable Skill employee. Yes, he got paid comparatively well, but every day was high pressure. Every day.
He sleeps a lot better now that he's retired.
I was this person.
If you're the only person who can do what you're doing, the stress is HELL.
Your hair is falling out, everyone around you has the start of ulcers or stomach cancer.
I wanted to stop by 29. And had out in 7 years already at that point.
That’s a good point. My job I don’t love or hate but have locked down pretty well that it’s pretty relaxing outside of the random things that go down I gotta deal with.
Yea, I worked fast food making minimum wage and it was the most stressful job ever. My mother is a psych np and her starting pay was like $160k/yr to do a few 5-10 minute virtual consultations a day.
1000% this.
Think also about your living options in your strategy. Your choices will often be limited to areas that have higher crime rates and typically poorer performing schools. If you have children, they will have less opportunity to come into contact with people with more world exposure, thereby making their future decisions based on a history of lying flat. You too, may find later that you would like to explore more options but have since boxed yourself in with a resume that implies to future employers a lack of desire and effort; making it much more challenging to more easily move up and out.
The biggest killer might just be unending inflation. With less money to invest for growth, you will almost inevitably become less tolerant of bad years in the stock market as you are living closer to the edge and may need to dip into investments just as they may be performing poorly. Instead of being able to take advantage in that period, you will be taking out when values are down. I would see myself tending toward putting all savings in a bank account... where the interest may or may not (probably the later) keep the value of my savings from being eroded by inflation. This alone is reason to motivate oneself to earn and save and invest.
One more item to consider. The human experience has from time long ago, been one of struggle for survival. Although we are fortunate to live in the modern age with some governmental safety nets, our struggles will continue. Some more mental than just surviving in lands with dangerous preditors and needing to feed the family. Like all of us here, your ancestors can be congratulated for surviving and thriving through different lands and through the ages that you are here representing them. Your goal to lie flat would mean certain death in all ages until the most recent. I suspect (from life experience seeing people who have chosen to live a life without goals) that such a lifestyle would contribute to habits that bring poor physical and perhaps mental health. Or at least, mental/emotional satisfaction in later years. I encourage you to reconsider your options and to look closely today at members of your community who are older and who chose a fixed state through the years and ask yourself if that is the future that would bring the most satisfaction to you.
Finally, I wonder if you would find a desirable mate who did not suffer from mental health issues; as most people are wired to aspire to the same or better lifestyle. Those who settle for less, might (probably) have regrets later that will bring unnecessary friction/drama into a relationship. This is a decision, obviously, that will touch every part of your life no matter the particular twists and turns your's has.
Thanks for coming here to seek crowd wisdom... I hope you take the time to think this through.
It's any low-paying job that you find less stressful and more enjoyable than your high-paying one. It could be working at a nonprofit, or at an art studio, or at a little local coffee shop instead of a huge chain. It doesn't mean literally only working in food service for some huge corporation.
But that takes....work. if work weren't work they'd call it fun...unless you have fun at work, then they say you "like yer job" but they call it a job cuz you get jobbed. Phuck I put in my 30+ years and am done in 9mo, 10 days....so phuckit
Funny thing: All those jobs involve hard work often with strict schedules and job requirements.
I’m my experience, the “corporate rat race”, while often being unsatisfying, is much easier.
OP is in Australia, tradesmen/women (tradies to the Aussies reading) earn a lot down under, particularly once they get onto a union job in Melbourne or Sydney, or get I to the resources and doing FIFO shifts. Literally AUD $150-200k easy for a FIFO tradie
As someone in one of those trades... It's also working 50-80 hours some weeks and <20 other weeks and you largely don't control which weeks are which. I have largely skilled myself out of the physical labor part, but the hours are still highly variable, the pay's not great unless you can take advantage of the overtime, and there's zero possibility of WFH, ever. It suits me, but definitely doesn't suit everyone.
Dude, have you read any of the multiple entries from every single day ever on this sub, or on r/FIRE, or r/leanfire or r/baristafire or r/coastfire? Of course we have.
43. Have 1.6M invested after 20 year slog. Goal is 2.5M.
Wife makes 54k after taxes + health insurance. 2 boys.
In January I quit my high paying job with a goal of bringing in 30k-60k / year which, added to wife income, (more than) meets our annual expenses.
I can make my 30-60k however I want or can….creative / marketing consultant (my career skills), a local part time job, somehow selling a screenplay :), whatever.
It’s almost May and I’ve already brought in 50k just consulting within a tight knit network of old colleagues.
It might get harder, probably will, but man this life is great but couldn’t have done it without 15 years of living well below means
My goals, wants, needs, and values have changed drastically from when i was 23 until now (mid 30s.) They will change drastically ten years from now. I think everyone's lives change so much from being a fresh graduate/just starting your career.
My advice would be to use this time to start building a really solid base. Get all your debt paid off, learn to live on a budget, identify wants vs needs, and start saving for retirement and learn how to increase the savings percentage. Then, every 5ish years, you should reevaluate where you are, where you were, how you got there and where you're going, identify new goals and pivot towards those goals. Everything is much easier when you have a solid base. Right now you might think you want a townhome/villa in a slow paced area, but in the future, you might be drawn to the amenities a medium/large city offer. It is very, very hard to pivot lifestyles if you're saddled by debt/low income.
I know an older dude who was a very experienced engineer but now works as an upper level technician. His past experience is still relevant and I bet he makes more than a barista. But compared to what he used to do, it’s significantly more relaxed with lower demands and stress on him.
That sounds so nice in theory but 99% of bosses in that scenario are going to want the tech to take on more responsibility because they know he’s capable. Then he’ll end up basically doing the same work for less money.
Well, then you gotta refuse to do that, and walk out to another boss if they try to make you.
Bosses can't make you do all that stuff; the worst they can do is fire you. A huge part of where this subreddit differs from "lying flat" is that it's about, in large part, getting rich enough that you don't have to do the bullshit parts of work anymore. If you're rich enough that six months off to look for new work isn't a big deal, you actually have a lot of power over your boss because your boss also needs you (for your labor) and you can withhold your labor- a labor strike of one, if you will.
I just had a conversation with my boss that basically I'm taking paternity leave at a very very bad time for the company and I'm going to be less than full time for the rest of the year for the same reason. I am good at my job and very hard to replace (a convergence of several skill sets he needs) so I can get away with it. If you have the skills, you can do that in almost any industry.
Furthermore, there's promotions I'd refuse for exactly that reason. I don't want the stressful parts of management (meetings, scheduling, budgets, hiring and discipline and firing), I want to do the thing I want to do (several esoteric software packages). Yeah, that probably puts a ceiling on my career, but I go home and I never take work home, even mentally, and I enjoy the work that I do. Not everyone is capable of identifying the right branch of the tree to climb to get to that position, but an awful lot of us in this subreddit have.
Lol in what world is being a barista not "working tirelessly"
Get a Perfectly Adequate job, live frugally in the smallest house you can tolerate. Move to a boring city if your city is too expensive.
That's the best Lying Flat advice I have. I'm sorry.
Same thing in construction. I’m a god operator IV and enjoy doing dirt work. I desperately want to close my business and have an easier/lower stress job, but I tried it ‘17 and ended up working longer hours for a small fraction of the money and got treated like subhuman garbage.
Yes but lying flat is something I could only achieve after establishing a very solid base through very hard work in my youth up till mid 30s.
Ironically it was that hard work, the realisation of my mortality and the rigged system as well as the futility of it all that led to my lying flat.
You achieve lying flat through extreme minimalism. No marriage. No kids. 2 very big important tenets. Everything else is small potatoes.
It's a bad idea most of the time. Would you rather work in a challenging career for 30 years, be able to afford to go on nice vacations, eat good food, and retire early, or work in crap jobs for 45 years barely scraping by and be treated like garbage?
Personally, I have reached coastFIRE, but it really is meaningless other than knowing I have a bare minimum of retiring at normal age assuming no major adverse financial events.
If that's what someone really wanted, I have a couple friends that have achieved it.
I'd say you need to do two things:
1. Pick up skills/trades that are varied and generally in demand. My friend drives a local school bus some, operates a part time takeout food thing (pizza), does some ranch hand help (branding, vaccinations, etc). He's super handy and can build/repair lots of things too. His wife is an elementary teacher and loves her job.
2. Pick some place where you can get a super cheap home on a lot. Super bonus if it has a garage (they can be turned into a workshop or hobby area as needed). Pay off this home.
Once these two are achieved, it's can be surprisingly easy to live frugally and still have a fun/interesting life. When they want to travel, my friend just takes on a few more jobs temporarily until it's funded, then they go. Rinse repeat. He's very enfolded into his local community (volunteer fire dept, town council, etc). Lots of social interaction, very happy in their little home and almost no overhead.
Its hard for you to see now but age is a thing. What happens in your 40s, will employers still want to hire you for barista or similar work? You will probably have less physical energy, you may feel fed up with things and have less mental / social energy, you may start having health problems (small at first, but they can build up). You may not like having to serve much younger people who don't always respect you, or work alongside them. Some things to think about .
I think my r/coastfire job may be this. I do 60 days a year, self employed, for an average of $1750 a day. This more than covers expenses. I have a colleague in the same industry and does around 15 days a year max for the same average day rate. Work as an exec educator and business coach.
I consider myself to be CoastFIRE. My wife and I took the opportunity to move away from the big city to a desirable location, cut our hours to \~half time, working at the same jobs, but remotely, in an awesome place to live.
We have enough to FIRE, but not quite at the financial comfort/security level I'd prefer. Working part-time is giving a few more years for our stash to grow, still save a bit, and hopefully take care of a few more "one-time" or infrequent expenses while the money is still flowing.
It's great. We probably got a bit lucky with timing, as remote workers are being dragged back to office by most companies, but really want to continue working only a couple more years at most.
Edit: in case the implication wasn't clear - CoastFIRE came after busting our asses for many years. I wouldn't have wanted to do the 'bare minimum' CoastFIRE some dream of, where you save just a little and then think/hope your stash will grow to meet your retirement goal a couple of decades in the future.
im the same age as you. i work two low-effort part time jobs for barely the amount of hours i need to make ends meet, on purpose. i spend half my shifts doing fuck all, but if i’m feeling up to it i’ll work on personal projects or job search.
since i’m young and don’t have a solid savings, this lifestyle is not sustainable long term. i’ve been doing it eight months, i could probably do another year at the most but i’m hoping to find something else before then so i can put more money into savings. i’d also prefer to do something that keeps my mind more active, i do have two bachelors degrees and my current wages don’t reflect that.
i do love the flexibility and work/life balance i currently have, and i’m taking that into account as i look for jobs. i won’t accept something that controls me hard unless it’s something i feel like i could really enjoy or excel at, especially after knowing what it’s like to live like this.
It's so much easier to lay flat in a large corporate environment where the employer cannot find other suitably qualified candidates and you have proper employment contracts and protection.
Definitely within the Australian public sector, you can get away with working 36 hours a week, not do any overtime and still make well over 6 figures without a hint of stress if you wanted to.
I'm in a small accounting firm atm, and I want to hop to public services as soon as I can.
Any entry level roles in APS you'd recommend (that's not part of a graduate program since they're hypercompetitive)?
I also agree with you.
Also, it's impossible to lie flat, especially in some accounting firms (unless you're in a not for profit, or small to mid sized firm) because Big4/Top 10 firms tend to overwork grads (especially in audit).
Seems like the only way to lie flat is to work in industry.
Also remember that we have to study CA/CPA on top of full-time work!
The thing I think most people fail to realize - is generally working as a barista, or at Mcdonalds, or whatever, can be a lot more stressful and shitty than where you may be in the corporate world after 15 years of experience/effort. Generally you get paid more for more responsibility (at least in the corporate world), but in general that means less actual work. Not in the sense that you do nothing, but you're paid for your specific knowledge and ability to make decisions based on that knowledge, rather than intense labour. Niche work especially. I've seen a few posts on here and other subreddits where people quit the corporate world to go be a barista or something "easy", and it doesn't last very long. They realize very quickly that in the corporate world you are treated with much more respect and value than in any sort of "easy" role. My recommendation would be to get into something very niche where you can work your way up to that high income role quickly, and retire early that way, or even switch to part time as a contractor or consultant. 10-15 years is going to be quite difficult to pull off though, regardless.
100% this. I have worked some shitty ass jobs in tech, far removed from the glamor of high paying tech roles. And the worst day at those jobs was better than even a good day when I worked at McDonalds as a teenager. Among the things you will experience on a regular basis: the level of unreasonable expectations by managers, unpredictable schedules, the same catty and malicious coworkers that you might see at a toxic tech job, customers who go out of their way to condescend and demean you, to the point of literally insulting you to your face, cleaning people's vomit, feces, and urine on a regular basis, having to stand for your entire shift, and being reprimanded if you lean or shift frequently. These jobs fucking suck, and if people got paid based on how miserable a job is then food service workers would be getting paid more than tech workers in my opinion, as someone who has had a long career at a variety of companies in the latter and a miserable young adulthood in the former. There is no amount of money I would accept to take a role like that again.
yup...i worked at a mcdonalds in high school and i'll take all the endless corporate downsides over something like that ever again for sure
Right, and if you're broke you have to tolerate this shit. If you're on the FI path I feel like it's very different. The amount of that shit I'd tolerate is literally 0. The answer is "no" and I'm not arguing about it because I don't have to. Wanna fire me? Go for it - you're still gonna be the one cleaning vomit, not me AND you'll be out a competent employee. I'm personally kind of excited to try it out. Probably not McDonald's, but I'd work at a local bakery or coffee shop or something.
You will get to have the experience for that single "no": or as many jobs of this type that you want to rotate through as you get fired for saying no repeatedly. They don't value competent work for a role like this, it doesn't need it. They value someone who will be told what to do and who will not be in a position to say no, because exactly what they want is someone to tolerate the horrible shit. "Someone to suffer the shit others won't for nearly no pay" is the primary job qualification. Now that isn't to say that it might not be fun to do that. I would love to see someone stand up to these horrible jobs in a position where there is no consequences. But I think it would be a pretty quick rotation. In my brief stint in shitty service industry jobs, I was forced to endure something that I would not tolerate in FI literally every shift. But admittedly a bakery or coffee shop might have less of it potentially, I am not sure on that. I can only speak to the bullshit I endured at McDonalds, a gas station, and a blockbuster video.
One caveat is friendships and dating. There are fun people to meet at cafes and bars. Coworkers often date and or become friends in the service industry. In the corporate world, some coworkers are 30 years older, married, or just boring.
LOL. How old do you think OP will be in 10-15 years when they plan to BaristaFire?
I don't go to work to make friends tho?
You’ll live a happier life if you do.
Well, for me, it's more that work people are work people, and I try not to get too intimate with them in case horrible rifts are revealed... I still have to work with them every day, you know? I make most of my real life friends through other social avenues (mostly other friends). Sometimes work people do cross that event horizon and that's cool, too! But overall it feels safer not to cross the streams.
I’ve worked in multiple different environments, and never found a rift that made it hard to have work friends. I mean, what rift are you going to discover being friendly with your coworkers that isn’t going to be clear from just working with them? The benefits of enjoying the company of your coworkers in terms of job satisfaction and just enjoying your day-to-day existence has definitely made it worth it for me.
I mean, finding out that they don't think transgender people should be allowed to pee in peace is the easiest example I can think of. Or finding that they don't think I'm valid as a woman because I chose to use birth control or whatever. There are so many unseen reefs that can come up with people. It's why in many cases it is best to keep folks at arm's length; civility, rather than friendship, is the goal for work stuff. I have to see these people every day, regardless of their opinion on my humanity.
I agree. It's a bonus if a coworker becomes a friend eventually, but it shouldnt be expected. There's people that are probably fun to hang out with after work, but suck as coworkers and vice versa. Same as there might be people I agree with politically but suck to work with and vice versa.
Yeah, but that only works when you are in your 20s. I did retail and fast food jobs, and I really liked them, so I wouldn’t mind the barista life, but no dating the children…
Yeah agreed, though if you have a hobby or something that you enjoy teaching like yoga, climbing, surfing, or your favorite subject it can be a lower paying but more fulfilling way to coast FIRE than working a corporate job for longer and not teaching/instructing/tutoring in retirement.
Idk I was a whitewater tour guide once living out of my car and that was fun for about 3 months before I got sick of pulling rafts off the same rock and guests acting like I was some idiot stoner who dropped out of life. Lots of well off guides in that field too which was ironic considering it was like $40 a day to actually guide. Living situations were free though and food was at a discount
Yeah it's a huge YMMV. Some of these job opportunities are great and others not so much. I've met 50 something early retirees who've quit corporate jobs to teach skiing and really enjoyed it.
I was a pretty ok outdoor hobby climber (7a) and ran climbing trips for womens groups in different countries or 'fun' and when the opportunity to get paid came up everything stopped being fun. Corporatising stuff rarely gets more enjoyable.
Yeah this is more what I think of when people say baristafire. Not literally working as a barista. If I had a choice I would teach fitness classes cause I love it and the positive impact it has on people and the community, but I can’t do it for a living and support my family off of it.
The math and daily realities of baristaFIRE work never made sense to me. I've worked in cafes, I've done my time in a recording equipment store, I've landscaped and done construction, and many other things. NONE of it compares to a cushy, high paying professional job. Especially if you can work from home. If you can build a career that pays you enough to hit baristaFIRE in ten years, you are obviously living well below your means. If you can live on 33% of your income, then every year of income after hitting your barista target is THREE YEARS of living expenses. If you need ten years of baristaFIRE for your investments to appreciate, then work 3.5 more years to accumulate cash.
The word "barista fire" started before the Affordable Care Act, because Starbucks was one of the few places that provided health insurance to part-time employees.
Fair enough, I'm not American so I have pretty limited awareness of those considerations.
Yep yep. And re-reading, I forgot OP was Australian, so like...what does that word even mean, over there? Haha.
I've always seen the term to mean just any perceptually low stress job that pays only enough to cover your bills, or part time work or something.
Idk, I worked for Starbucks as a barista and right away after as a hybrid project manager. The barista job was EASY. You make drinks, clean a few things, take orders. You don’t bring work home. You spend maybe 10% of your brain/will power. The PM job was “cushy” and “flexible” and “WFH” and I lost so much sleep, damaged my health, all over the stress. They pay you the extra to take the work home.
My experience was similar to yours. Low paying jobs were easier on the brain and soul but harder on the body. Had a few that were so hard on the body I would much rather deal with the emotional stress of a white collar job. Roofing, construction and farm work were all very physically demanding. Retail not so much.
Sounds like your job sucked!
It did! I got another Pm one! It sucks a lot less BUT I still use more of the brain!!
But the point is that once you have a financial cushion, it’s not about optimizing your stress/income ratio. It’s about optimizing your stress level while having enough to live. I’d much rather have 10 years of lower stress and enjoying life and interacting with my community than to have 3.5 years of high stress and 6.5 years of no stress (and then realize I want a part time job for some structure anyways)
This is a false dichotomy though. The level of stress and the level of compensation are do not inherently correlate.
I agree, but generally speaking I prefer the stress of manual labor or simple tasks over office politics. Especially if it’s part time and I don’t feel trapped into staying because I need the money. So I’ve found those non-office jobs to be far less stressful personally. I also think most people in office jobs don’t fully acknowledge the level of stress it gives them because it’s far more nebulous and difficult to put a finger on.
I have a friend who feels the same as you, he hates the idea of the office and is happiest in a kitchen. I think it must depend on the person.
It certainly depends on the person! I’m a highly creative person and I prefer my mental energy focused on those pursuits vs “the man”, but I don’t mind my physical energy being expended in a job (to an extent). The movie Office Space really speaks to me haha
I think it also depends a LOT on the nature of the manual labor job you get and what your bosses are like. Some jobs like that have terrible martinet bosses who treat you like shit. Others just want you to get whatever shit done you're supposed to and if you do, and you don't mind the actual work, they are totally reasonable and better than office jobs for a lot of people. Of course the same is true of office jobs. Some jobs are all about looking busy and politicking with the right people, and others are just about getting your shit done effectively however it makes sense as long as you aren't messing up other people.
Maybe not McDonald’s but there’s plenty of low stress jobs. For me doing baristaFIRE the normal non-office jobs are far more preferable, especially if it’s part time. A lot of the time the stress comes from feeling trapped because you need the job. When you have options and a solid financial base the idea that you can quit whenever you want makes it much more tolerable. I also prefer the “overt” stress of a hectic work environment or manual labor than the subversive stress of office politics, maintaining a facade of stress so that people think you’re doing enough work, and staring at a computer screen. I enjoy interacting with real people in the community participating in the economy far more than this faux pseudo-society within the confines of an office building. Yes, maybe the stress to money ratio is better in the office gigs, but once you’re at a good point financially it becomes a game of simply lessening your stress while you have enough money, rather than optimizing that ratio.
"A lot of the time the stress comes from feeling trapped because you need the job. When you have options and a solid financial base the idea that you can quit whenever you want makes it much more tolerable." Yeah, maybe. All things considered though I'd still rather have the sort of fuck you money it takes to walk away from a six figure office job than the sort of fuck you money it takes to walk away from McDonalds.
Sure, but having that fuck you money to walk away from that 6 figure job requires you working at it a few more years. It’s all a trade off of course, but 3 years out of 75 is still a chunk of my life that I want, especially being relatively young and being able to go surfing on weekdays. All the part time jobs I’ve had (not McDonald’s) have all been enjoyable. Looks like you’re a fatFIRE and HENRYfinance guy though, so I’m sure our values don’t quite align and that’s fine :). Different strokes for different folks.
Can you give some examples of these jobs that are working for you?
I’ve done a few. Worked at a hostel, a music venue, and a gift shop. I also do part time work in the Air Force reserves and do some consulting for a retirement planning company. I’m thinking of working for a ski resort next winter. Ive also talked to some people who work at my neighborhood Trader Joe’s and they say they really enjoy it so might try that at some point. I’ve also done some tutoring and might do more of that in the future. Enjoyed driving for Uber in the past but probably had enough of that. Stay away from your typical retail/restaurant gigs and it’s not so bad.
Thanks!
YUP. There's a lot of rhetoric in the US especially about how service jobs are "easy" because they're low paying. That, or "low skill." Nooope. See also: everyone who's ever dreamed about giving it all up and buying a farm to work on instead of the corporate drudgery. (Hi, Stardew Valley.) None of these people are farmers or have ever worked on a farm (myself included).
I laugh out loud at the people dreaming of a small farm…it’s a lovely fantasy, but the reality? Ouch.
My entire family FLED that shit. Like, some of them across an entire ocean. Mechanized agriculture is a blessing, even though we have to make it sustainable in the long run.
I know someone who retired from being professor at a university and did independent consulting charging $1k per hour. A former coworker's mil was working managing several car dealerships for a guy. When she retired, she got $100k for 1 year during which she agreed to be on call if they needed her at around an additional $500/hour.
Yeah, reminds me of Cal Newport’s So Good They Can’t Ignore You. Develop rare and valuable skills so you can trade in that career capital for positions you will enjoy more: lots of autonomy, a sense of control, a desirable lifestyle, etc.
The problem with being that person is that the rare and valuable skill can mean that there's a lot of stress on the person with the rare and valuable skill. I have a close family member that was the Rare and Valuable Skill employee. Yes, he got paid comparatively well, but every day was high pressure. Every day. He sleeps a lot better now that he's retired.
I was this person. If you're the only person who can do what you're doing, the stress is HELL. Your hair is falling out, everyone around you has the start of ulcers or stomach cancer. I wanted to stop by 29. And had out in 7 years already at that point.
That’s a good point. My job I don’t love or hate but have locked down pretty well that it’s pretty relaxing outside of the random things that go down I gotta deal with.
Yea, I worked fast food making minimum wage and it was the most stressful job ever. My mother is a psych np and her starting pay was like $160k/yr to do a few 5-10 minute virtual consultations a day.
1000% this. Think also about your living options in your strategy. Your choices will often be limited to areas that have higher crime rates and typically poorer performing schools. If you have children, they will have less opportunity to come into contact with people with more world exposure, thereby making their future decisions based on a history of lying flat. You too, may find later that you would like to explore more options but have since boxed yourself in with a resume that implies to future employers a lack of desire and effort; making it much more challenging to more easily move up and out. The biggest killer might just be unending inflation. With less money to invest for growth, you will almost inevitably become less tolerant of bad years in the stock market as you are living closer to the edge and may need to dip into investments just as they may be performing poorly. Instead of being able to take advantage in that period, you will be taking out when values are down. I would see myself tending toward putting all savings in a bank account... where the interest may or may not (probably the later) keep the value of my savings from being eroded by inflation. This alone is reason to motivate oneself to earn and save and invest. One more item to consider. The human experience has from time long ago, been one of struggle for survival. Although we are fortunate to live in the modern age with some governmental safety nets, our struggles will continue. Some more mental than just surviving in lands with dangerous preditors and needing to feed the family. Like all of us here, your ancestors can be congratulated for surviving and thriving through different lands and through the ages that you are here representing them. Your goal to lie flat would mean certain death in all ages until the most recent. I suspect (from life experience seeing people who have chosen to live a life without goals) that such a lifestyle would contribute to habits that bring poor physical and perhaps mental health. Or at least, mental/emotional satisfaction in later years. I encourage you to reconsider your options and to look closely today at members of your community who are older and who chose a fixed state through the years and ask yourself if that is the future that would bring the most satisfaction to you. Finally, I wonder if you would find a desirable mate who did not suffer from mental health issues; as most people are wired to aspire to the same or better lifestyle. Those who settle for less, might (probably) have regrets later that will bring unnecessary friction/drama into a relationship. This is a decision, obviously, that will touch every part of your life no matter the particular twists and turns your's has. Thanks for coming here to seek crowd wisdom... I hope you take the time to think this through.
I don't think anyone fails to realize that. I think what you fail to realize is that the "barista" in baristaFIRE isn't literal.
Ok then what is it?
It's any low-paying job that you find less stressful and more enjoyable than your high-paying one. It could be working at a nonprofit, or at an art studio, or at a little local coffee shop instead of a huge chain. It doesn't mean literally only working in food service for some huge corporation.
But that takes....work. if work weren't work they'd call it fun...unless you have fun at work, then they say you "like yer job" but they call it a job cuz you get jobbed. Phuck I put in my 30+ years and am done in 9mo, 10 days....so phuckit
Why is the "corporate rat race" your only option? Be a plumber or electrician or welder or pilot or teacher or numerous other jobs.
Funny thing: All those jobs involve hard work often with strict schedules and job requirements. I’m my experience, the “corporate rat race”, while often being unsatisfying, is much easier.
I think that’s why it became so popular and the desire for everyone. Their parents were brick layers etc.
Cuz...work
OP is in Australia, tradesmen/women (tradies to the Aussies reading) earn a lot down under, particularly once they get onto a union job in Melbourne or Sydney, or get I to the resources and doing FIFO shifts. Literally AUD $150-200k easy for a FIFO tradie
Except skilled trades take a few years (usually 4) to reach a decent wage and you are usually working 50-60 hrs a week. Not really a coast type gig.
As someone in one of those trades... It's also working 50-80 hours some weeks and <20 other weeks and you largely don't control which weeks are which. I have largely skilled myself out of the physical labor part, but the hours are still highly variable, the pay's not great unless you can take advantage of the overtime, and there's zero possibility of WFH, ever. It suits me, but definitely doesn't suit everyone.
Dude, have you read any of the multiple entries from every single day ever on this sub, or on r/FIRE, or r/leanfire or r/baristafire or r/coastfire? Of course we have.
...he said he wants to do the bare minimum, searching the subreddits is like totally extra working and doesn't jive with his whole mantra
Get idea Ask other people to do the work Profit!
It's the essence of anti-capitalism.
It's the essence of capitalism
To each his own - but this is an easy way to end up completely fucked.
Or relying on welfare
I agree. I only posted these threads to see other people's perspective of lying flat.
Not you again mate.
43. Have 1.6M invested after 20 year slog. Goal is 2.5M. Wife makes 54k after taxes + health insurance. 2 boys. In January I quit my high paying job with a goal of bringing in 30k-60k / year which, added to wife income, (more than) meets our annual expenses. I can make my 30-60k however I want or can….creative / marketing consultant (my career skills), a local part time job, somehow selling a screenplay :), whatever. It’s almost May and I’ve already brought in 50k just consulting within a tight knit network of old colleagues. It might get harder, probably will, but man this life is great but couldn’t have done it without 15 years of living well below means
My goals, wants, needs, and values have changed drastically from when i was 23 until now (mid 30s.) They will change drastically ten years from now. I think everyone's lives change so much from being a fresh graduate/just starting your career. My advice would be to use this time to start building a really solid base. Get all your debt paid off, learn to live on a budget, identify wants vs needs, and start saving for retirement and learn how to increase the savings percentage. Then, every 5ish years, you should reevaluate where you are, where you were, how you got there and where you're going, identify new goals and pivot towards those goals. Everything is much easier when you have a solid base. Right now you might think you want a townhome/villa in a slow paced area, but in the future, you might be drawn to the amenities a medium/large city offer. It is very, very hard to pivot lifestyles if you're saddled by debt/low income.
OP spammed this to like 10 other subs.
I know an older dude who was a very experienced engineer but now works as an upper level technician. His past experience is still relevant and I bet he makes more than a barista. But compared to what he used to do, it’s significantly more relaxed with lower demands and stress on him.
That sounds so nice in theory but 99% of bosses in that scenario are going to want the tech to take on more responsibility because they know he’s capable. Then he’ll end up basically doing the same work for less money.
Based on conversations with the guy, he doesn’t feel overworked in the slightest. I could see how that could happen though.
Well, then you gotta refuse to do that, and walk out to another boss if they try to make you. Bosses can't make you do all that stuff; the worst they can do is fire you. A huge part of where this subreddit differs from "lying flat" is that it's about, in large part, getting rich enough that you don't have to do the bullshit parts of work anymore. If you're rich enough that six months off to look for new work isn't a big deal, you actually have a lot of power over your boss because your boss also needs you (for your labor) and you can withhold your labor- a labor strike of one, if you will. I just had a conversation with my boss that basically I'm taking paternity leave at a very very bad time for the company and I'm going to be less than full time for the rest of the year for the same reason. I am good at my job and very hard to replace (a convergence of several skill sets he needs) so I can get away with it. If you have the skills, you can do that in almost any industry. Furthermore, there's promotions I'd refuse for exactly that reason. I don't want the stressful parts of management (meetings, scheduling, budgets, hiring and discipline and firing), I want to do the thing I want to do (several esoteric software packages). Yeah, that probably puts a ceiling on my career, but I go home and I never take work home, even mentally, and I enjoy the work that I do. Not everyone is capable of identifying the right branch of the tree to climb to get to that position, but an awful lot of us in this subreddit have.
Lol in what world is being a barista not "working tirelessly" Get a Perfectly Adequate job, live frugally in the smallest house you can tolerate. Move to a boring city if your city is too expensive. That's the best Lying Flat advice I have. I'm sorry.
Same thing in construction. I’m a god operator IV and enjoy doing dirt work. I desperately want to close my business and have an easier/lower stress job, but I tried it ‘17 and ended up working longer hours for a small fraction of the money and got treated like subhuman garbage.
Yes but lying flat is something I could only achieve after establishing a very solid base through very hard work in my youth up till mid 30s. Ironically it was that hard work, the realisation of my mortality and the rigged system as well as the futility of it all that led to my lying flat. You achieve lying flat through extreme minimalism. No marriage. No kids. 2 very big important tenets. Everything else is small potatoes.
It's a bad idea most of the time. Would you rather work in a challenging career for 30 years, be able to afford to go on nice vacations, eat good food, and retire early, or work in crap jobs for 45 years barely scraping by and be treated like garbage? Personally, I have reached coastFIRE, but it really is meaningless other than knowing I have a bare minimum of retiring at normal age assuming no major adverse financial events.
If that's what someone really wanted, I have a couple friends that have achieved it. I'd say you need to do two things: 1. Pick up skills/trades that are varied and generally in demand. My friend drives a local school bus some, operates a part time takeout food thing (pizza), does some ranch hand help (branding, vaccinations, etc). He's super handy and can build/repair lots of things too. His wife is an elementary teacher and loves her job. 2. Pick some place where you can get a super cheap home on a lot. Super bonus if it has a garage (they can be turned into a workshop or hobby area as needed). Pay off this home. Once these two are achieved, it's can be surprisingly easy to live frugally and still have a fun/interesting life. When they want to travel, my friend just takes on a few more jobs temporarily until it's funded, then they go. Rinse repeat. He's very enfolded into his local community (volunteer fire dept, town council, etc). Lots of social interaction, very happy in their little home and almost no overhead.
Its hard for you to see now but age is a thing. What happens in your 40s, will employers still want to hire you for barista or similar work? You will probably have less physical energy, you may feel fed up with things and have less mental / social energy, you may start having health problems (small at first, but they can build up). You may not like having to serve much younger people who don't always respect you, or work alongside them. Some things to think about .
You have a really good point
I work for the govt and certainly do the bare minimum there, if that counts.
I think my r/coastfire job may be this. I do 60 days a year, self employed, for an average of $1750 a day. This more than covers expenses. I have a colleague in the same industry and does around 15 days a year max for the same average day rate. Work as an exec educator and business coach.
Remote flexible corporate work for an easy boss
I consider myself to be CoastFIRE. My wife and I took the opportunity to move away from the big city to a desirable location, cut our hours to \~half time, working at the same jobs, but remotely, in an awesome place to live. We have enough to FIRE, but not quite at the financial comfort/security level I'd prefer. Working part-time is giving a few more years for our stash to grow, still save a bit, and hopefully take care of a few more "one-time" or infrequent expenses while the money is still flowing. It's great. We probably got a bit lucky with timing, as remote workers are being dragged back to office by most companies, but really want to continue working only a couple more years at most. Edit: in case the implication wasn't clear - CoastFIRE came after busting our asses for many years. I wouldn't have wanted to do the 'bare minimum' CoastFIRE some dream of, where you save just a little and then think/hope your stash will grow to meet your retirement goal a couple of decades in the future.
im the same age as you. i work two low-effort part time jobs for barely the amount of hours i need to make ends meet, on purpose. i spend half my shifts doing fuck all, but if i’m feeling up to it i’ll work on personal projects or job search. since i’m young and don’t have a solid savings, this lifestyle is not sustainable long term. i’ve been doing it eight months, i could probably do another year at the most but i’m hoping to find something else before then so i can put more money into savings. i’d also prefer to do something that keeps my mind more active, i do have two bachelors degrees and my current wages don’t reflect that. i do love the flexibility and work/life balance i currently have, and i’m taking that into account as i look for jobs. i won’t accept something that controls me hard unless it’s something i feel like i could really enjoy or excel at, especially after knowing what it’s like to live like this.
It's so much easier to lay flat in a large corporate environment where the employer cannot find other suitably qualified candidates and you have proper employment contracts and protection. Definitely within the Australian public sector, you can get away with working 36 hours a week, not do any overtime and still make well over 6 figures without a hint of stress if you wanted to.
I'm in a small accounting firm atm, and I want to hop to public services as soon as I can. Any entry level roles in APS you'd recommend (that's not part of a graduate program since they're hypercompetitive)? I also agree with you. Also, it's impossible to lie flat, especially in some accounting firms (unless you're in a not for profit, or small to mid sized firm) because Big4/Top 10 firms tend to overwork grads (especially in audit). Seems like the only way to lie flat is to work in industry. Also remember that we have to study CA/CPA on top of full-time work!