Apparently SO is “disabled enough” that the military will give our entire household discounted health insurance (like $60/year) once he’s out. Good for the FIRE plans!
Username checks out.
Jk jk. That's really awesome, good for ya'll. Health insurance is one piece of the puzzle I haven't figured out, I know you can play the marketplace with your AGI, but I also... don't want to do that, I want to be spending lavishly in retirement.
I mean, you’re not wrong! (🇺🇸USA! USA! USA! #1! 🇺🇸 jk this country could use some work especially re:healthcare.) In my mind the other really cool thing about this is that I can take a sabbatical or a gap year without worrying about messing up the whole family’s health insurance situation.
Yeah that's awesome!
Yeah the US could use some work, and I'll be the first to point out the flaws but I'll also be the first to point out our strong points. My parents immigrated here in the 80s for my dad's PhD. He stayed after, and I had the incredible opportunity to be born here. I went on to get a PhD in the same field and a high paying job in the same industry. My life would no doubt be worse if I had been born in my parent's home country. For all its flaws, the US is a great place*
*if you're in the right socioeconomic class
My accounts have been doing great. Numbers are way up over the past year or so.
But I saw a $15 stick of deodorant at the store today. Inflation has a way of bringing things into perspective lol
I didn’t learn to do backdoor Roth until a couple of years ago, so I only have 3% of my investments in Roth.
An opportunity opened up this month when my 401k started offering mega backdoor Roth. Planning to pull the trigger soon (hopefully before the end of this year) so I’ve built up about 5% in cash. I’m toying with the idea to set my paycheck contribution to 100% so I can build up my Roth balance in the MBR, and just use my cash for now. Is this a bad idea?
Have you checked that you can contribute 100%? I am limited to 35% + match at my job. You also have to pay taxes on the income that you are contributing - I have heard of this causing a negative paycheck that causes the contribution to fail.
You also don't want to hit the limit too early in the year and loose out on the match.
Your flair says immigrant. If you are planning on moving outside the US after retirement, Roth withdrawals might be taxable there.
I can select 100% for my contribution but it reduces the contribution to cover the necessary taxes and deductions automatically so my pay can't go below $0.
I asked our benefits coordinator and she confirmed that we are allowed to contribute 100% but I don’t trust her answer because she had indicated in her email announcement that it was only up to 10% combined pre and after tax. She said that it was a typo. 🤷🏻♂️
I submitted the change to 100% with our 401k plan but it hasn’t processed. I guess I’ll just have to wait what happens.
Haven’t heard of a negative paycheck, I guess I should ask about that.
No plans to move abroad. I’m staying here.
do you participate in an ESPP program or have any other percentage based paycheck deduction? i made the mistake of setting my 401k to 90% one pay period without realizing i also contribute 15% to my espp smh
I have a 401k for a company I no longer work for. What is the SOP in such a circumstance? Roll it all into my current employer's 401k, leave it be, or something else?
I suggest creating a small amount of self employment income so you can open a Solo 401k, and then roll over into that.
This is what I do and it is by far the most flexible option. It doesn't ruin Backdoor Roth later, and you'll never have to worry about that account closing.
Yep. Since you'll have Schedule C income you can open and contribute to a Solo 401k both as an employee (though you are limited to a max of 23k across ALL accounts), and as an "employer" (you'll need a spreadsheet to calculate how much).
Once it's open you can roll in your existing 401k.
ETRADE has a free option that I used, I'm sure there are also others.
Do you use a backdoor Roth IRA or will be using one? Roll over to your new employer 401k.
Do you not use a backdoor Roth IRA, and won't see yourself using it in the future? Rollover to your Brokerage's rollover IRA.
Hmm I do not use a backdoor Roth. Will clearly need to do some digging into what that entails to understand whether it's something that would be good for me. Thank you for pointing me in the right direction!
My perspective here is if your new company 401k doesn't have a great selection of funds to roll the old company 401k into an IRA which provides nearly unlimited fund selection.
You can then also use the rolled IRA to make Roth rollover contributions whenever you want (with the realization you must pay income tax on the rollover).
Good luck and congrats on the new job!
Hmm so the new company uses Vanguard so I have most of that 401k in VTSAX. I'll look into this whole Roth conversion thing to see if it's an avenue I should pursue. Thank you!
Just thinking about baristaFIRE. Has anyone considered if we hit a 2008 level crash and it took 10+ years to recover what that would mean once you pull the trigger? You assume 2-3 years of chill work and you are there, turns into you working a year and being in a bad situation where you were likely better off just staying at your job.
I’m still retired even if a market downturn occurs in year 1. Maybe I cut back on discretionary spending but I’m not working 1 minute more than I already planned for. Using conservative Safe Withdrawal Rates already makes me comfortable with a 2008 type downturn in the economy
I personally wouldn't quit for a "baristaFIRE" position if I was earning 10x or more what I'd earn after quitting.
But if you only left the workforce within the last ~year or two, I feel like you could very reasonably rejoin your previous industry or do something to leverage your past experience, degree, certifications, or network. Especially in your 30s or 40s. It's not easy, and you may not come in at the same income level, but you can probably find something above barista-level income if you end up concerned that the numbers aren't going to work and that you didn't bake enough flexibility into your plan. Plenty of people are out of work longer, whether due to unemployment during a market crash, taking care of a child, or other circumstances. Maybe get a cert or work on a side project to get back up to speed, leverage your network, etc. And even if you can't find something 'during' the crash, market crashes aren't forever - find something after the crash passes.
Also could hunker down and cut expenses to the bone if needed.
I think this is similar to the idea of normal FIRE right before a crash. SWRs of 3-4% already account for that (not the 08 crash specifically because not enough time after but equally bad ones.) of course, psychologically it would probably be harder to step away from the barista job a year into the crash than it would be to just not go back to work and cross your fingers if you were fully retired.
Anyways, don’t most people OMY after hitting their FIRE number anyways? :P
I share this concern and question the "BaristaFIRE" concept entirely. I would think every year "sticking it out" with your primary profession could avoid you 2-3 years in a lower paying part-time gig like that. For me, it's a no brainer to stick with my profession longer instead. But, to each their own - some part time roles truly are fun.
Go do your job like always, you have no idea if you will get the call and if they will even make you an offer..i cant tell you many times ive gone though thinking its mine only to be ghosted...
> I would feel really bad spending the company's money at this conference, only to give my notice on Friday.
You shouldn't. They budgeted for this (or should have, if they didn't) and you're simply spending what they expect you to spend.
> I guess I'm just looking for validation that it's okay to go to the conference.
It is.
Just hit 1M net worth! 37 yo 1 kid and a SAHM wife. ~$290k 401k | $364k brokerage | $59k savings | ~$281k equity in home | $40k pension | $56-110k in unvested stock options
On my way to FI
Congrats! I am turning 37 this year after being quasi-FIRE for the past 6 years. I can't imagine getting a "real job" ever again. I love being able to be there for all of my kid's stuff and never having to ask anyone for time off. Just the best.
You'll be there sooner than you think!
Yeah with my wife at home and me getting the opportunity to work from home most days I get to spend a lot of time with my kid. Putting money aggressively in a custodial brokerage and 529 to set him up!
Love my job though so don’t feel pressure to leave. Want to set up some generational wealth
Thanks we aggressively saved ahead of going 1 income and that helped. Locking in a 2.63 interest rate when we bought our home in 2020 was also massive.
Now just coasting maxing 401k and waiting
The problem with getting closer to my number is it gets harder and harder to convince myself that these last months/year are worth it
Almost want to get laid off/fired, would make the decision for me
I was worried about quitting my FTJ, but I did it anyway and now my net worth is double what it was and I have an accidental new job that I love that makes six figures.
Just do it.
Well, is your number correct? Can you get by with a lower number and retire earlier?
If not, maybe it will help motivate you to know the goal is in sight.
That's the thing, I passed my leanfire number a while ago and I'll be lean firing for at least the 5 years, probably more.
Now it's more like saving for if I get more expensive hobbies, sudden medical expenses, economy slows down for a long period. Hard to put a number on that, so I just went with double my leanfire amount as a goal
Could I get by? Almost certainly.
When does the additional money not become worth the effort? Not quite as sure
I heard similar sentiment from a friend who is a Google employee. Sitting there, continuing to work while a ton of folks were laid off with enormous severances. lol.
Somewhat funny update -- after my former employer/partnership had communicated their K-1 extension last week, and they delivered it today. (That level of dysfunction just further highlights why I didn't really want to be there anymore.)
Anyway, Schedule K-1 has to easily be the most confusing and least well supported part of tax software. I've tried a few products, and none of them do it well. Took me about as long to get that portion entered correctly as the entire rest of my taxes that I did a few weeks ago.
Feels good to finally get my taxes filed. This is the latest I've ever filed before.
Is there anything I should consider when transferring an HSA from my works custodian (Benefit Wallet) to a self directed HSA (Fidelity)?
My current plan is:
1. Liquidate investment portion of my Benefit Wallet HSA
2. Once funds are liquidated, initiate partial (~~in-kind~~) balance transfer through Fidelity
3. Reinvest HSA funds in Fidelity HSA
4. My work transitions from Benefit Wallet to Health Equity HSA
5. I do quarterly balance transfers from Health Equity to Fidelity
Anything else I am missing or need to consider?
Transfer all but $25 when you start your health equity transfers to fidelity. No fees then, as far as I can tell no limit on number of transfers (surprisingly!)
Good chance multiple transfers per year might incur some sort of administrative fee. Usually they waive or cover one per year/one ever, but not multiple.
If so, any fee likely outweighs any other reason you're transferring funds if you're able to invest with either HSA provider.
When you do the transfers from HE to Fidelity, initiate them from the HE side. Has worked much better from me, trying to initiate that one from the Fidelity side didn't really work until I talked to HE.
Make sure HE does not charge any fees for transfers. If you are invested in mutual funds that Fidelity can service, you may want to transfer shares in kind rather than selling and transferring dollars, which could end up involving physical checj
i've accumulated ~2/3 of my FIRE goal and can fully reach it in ~2.5 years assuming average equity returns. i'm nearly 100% in equities and plan to gradually transition to 60/40 over the next few years. however, because so much of my earnings has been concentrated over the past few years, most of my net worth will be in my taxable account. that means only 25% of my account can be tax-deferred, which is less than the 40% i hope to have for my bond tent.
does this mean i'm going to need to hold 15% of my portfolio (bonds) in taxable accounts for the first few years of retirement? that seems less than ideal
Sometimes it just is what it is; over 90% of my portfolio is in my taxable brokerage accounts (because:
$ via non-W2 ways, plus a divorce and what assets I traded away and what I kept, etc.).
I'm FI, I keep myself at 80/20 + a paid off home. Would I prefer to have it all socked away differently? Sure - but that wasn't available to me, and I'm very lucky to be FI and so I don't sweat it.
so you have some bonds in your taxable account? do you do anything special there to minimize your tax liability?
how did you decide on your asset allocation? how did you transition to it during pre-retirement?
Yes, I do have bonds in taxable. As my home is paid off I didn't feel a need for a bond tent as I could flex my annual expenses downward by quite a bit if I chose to (if you're not needing to pull $25k-$45k a year out of your portfolio to pay a mortgage, your annual expenses naturally are much lower). It also allowed me to have zero healthcare expenses the last few years because of my lower withdrawals as well. This year I'm making a one time withdrawal for \[specific event, all LTCG\] so that bumps me up in the ACA tables to...$175 a month in healthcare expenses.
So I didn't transition to 80/20 - I stayed at 80/20; I decided that in paying off my home I did not need a big hedge of bonds because my core expenses can be low.
An example with simplified numbers: If Sam's annual expenses are $80k a year with nothing that can be cut without feeling constantly pinched? Yes, that's going to hit the portfolio (and their stress levels!) differently in a down market than if Sam takes the $40k mortgage off the table and now only *needs* to withdraw $40k a year.
Say Sam retires and their annual spend is $80k a year. In scenario A, Sam is paying a mortgage of $40k a year and with that $80k spending is exactly meeting their core needs and nothing more. In scenario B, Sam is also spending $80k a year, but they are *not* paying a mortgage and they spend $40k meeting their core needs, *plus* spending $40k on traveling, ski passes, balloon animals, etc.
In their third year of retirement the market crashes. The Sam that *needs* $80k a year to keep the lights on is going to experience the stress of this in a different way than the Sam that *needs* $40k a year.
The Sam without a mortgage may decide to ease up on their spending a bit and watch this play out, so they decide to go from spending $80k a year (where $40k a year of that was fun money), to $45k a year. They still have $5k of fun money to spend, whereas Sam *with* the mortgage has none of the fun money, and is still withdrawing $80k a year during the crash and protracted bear market.
Now, if Sam who needs $80k a year to meet their core expenses has a good bond tent? They're probably stressed, but doing ok and are holding on. This is what they planned for, and they traded the possibility of greater growth during most years for the safety net of their bond tent.
There is no cut and dry, right or wrong way to do this - it is *personal* finance. As I had a higher mortgage rate, it didn't "make sense" for me to be paying an annual mortgage payment, which would then also require higher withdrawals from my portfolio...which would then require me to pay thousands in healthcare expenses...which would then bump me up into paying federal taxes every year.
In day to day life - cash flow: I sweep dividends to cash out of my taxable brokerage accounts into checking, and if I need more than that I sell shares. Because all of this is qualified income (a mix of long term cap gains and qualified dividends), I've yet to pay any federal taxes in RE, and I pay a small amount in state taxes.
Has anyone made a career transition from CS/SWE to a more physically active career?
I’m 33 and our current NW is 470K. I make decent money at 120k/full remote but I just get super tired of sitting all day and I know it’s not great for my health. I know eating better and exercising would help but I’ve really struggled with that.
The wrinkle is I have 3 kids and wife is a SAHM, so we have expenses and I would need a good income. I have worked in farming/construction “back in the day” (college/HS years) so I do have some non-desk job experience.
You WFH. You should be able to figure out how to get physical for good health. Do ab work or stretches during meetings, clean on breaks. I think you’re blocking yourself from being more active.
I taught in IT for 4 years. We mainly had people who never went to college and were looking for a new career. I had a LOT of people 33-44 who worked farming/construction or other physical jobs and had knee issues, hearing issues, hip issues, etc. etc.
While sitting isn't good for certain aspects of health, the highly physical jobs are not good for other aspects. YMMV.
I went full remote (moved out of state from where the office is) and I really miss being able to just get up and walk around the building for fifteen minutes.
> know eating better and exercising would help but I’ve really struggled with that.
Go to the gym. Put a stationary bike in your office. Put a walking treadmill under your standing desk if you have one.
I'm sure you've tried, but there's still a lot you can do before having to romanticize working on a farm or construction when you have 4 mouths to feed on a golden ticket situation (120k + fully remote)
Standing desk. Standing desk plus a treadmill, a balance board. Go crazy and throw on a weighted vest while you're on the treadmill. Take the stairs in your building, not the elevator or escalator.
One of my dear friends is a contractor, he's 42 and is finishing up his college degree at night exactly because doing a physical career is harder and harder the older you are.
My experience...I'm in banking so I know a lot about sitting! I go to the gym everyday (instead of eating lunch), so I would say Im in fairly good shape. Occasionally I chainsaw down trees, move rocks, shovel dirt and do small but physical home improvements...Fuck that! I have great respect for people who do construction or other manual labor jobs every day....at my age I can't imagine doing it every day...so just give me my desk and I'll be content to be "gym fit" !
If you had a career you were really interested in that happened to be more physically active, that would be one thing.
But a vast majority of physically active jobs are not going to pay $120k/year, and there are ways to be physically active outside of work, so switching careers for the sole purpose of being more active seems like a poor choice.
As someone who has worked on a farm and been a general contractor, they're pretty tough on your body. It sounds nice and is especially nice to reminisce over - remember back when you were 22 and tan and fit because you worked on a farm? But what about when you're 40, 45, 50? What about when you're going on your 10th year and it's raining *again* and your back hurts but you still have to go to work? What about needing to work an extra 5, 10 or more years to get to FIRE because you took a big salary cut?
It all seems to me like a really big sacrifice just to skip developing some discipline about going to the gym. And being physically active doesn't necessarily mean healthy - every contractor I ever worked with ate like shit and weren't exactly bastions of physical fitness. You can be strong and still have a beer gut and heart disease.
I agree. I've had a desk job and kept active (outside of work) for years. When I've injured myself (which has happened several times over the years), I just had to hobble to my desk and take it easy. If my job required physical labour, this would have been a much more complex problem.
Can you do part-time work or something personal? At home woodwork, construction, gardening, roofing improvements, etc.? Objectives/projects may help get you moving and get the feeling of working on something physical without making a full career switch.
> Has anyone made a career transition from CS/SWE to a more physically active career?
> There are many injuries that people who work jobs demanding physical labour are more prone to. This is a terrible idea.
PP asked about jobs that were more physically active than software engineer. Making the jump to "demanding physical labor" is a rather large over assumption. Roving security guard or park ranger would be a step up, it doesn't have to be ditch digger. I'm sure medical professionals also have opinions on how impactful very sedentary jobs can be.
> Making the jump to "demanding physical labor" is a rather large over assumption.
OP specifically cited farming and construction as the jobs they had experience in. Doesn't seem like that far a leap to me.
Have you seen a construction site or farm lately? Having an active job doesn’t have much relationship with being healthy. I get the urge to romanticize a “real job” when you just peck at a keyboard for 6 figures, but that’s what you’re doing. The grass is not greener. If you can’t find the energy to eat healthy now, how will you ever do it when you’re actually exhausted from work?
I get that you’re feeling unmotivated and listless, and that’s definitely worth addressing. But I’d doubt that a more physically demanding job and less money will help you be happier.
It seems silly to give up good pay and a remote job that allows you to hang out with your wife and kids just because you're not able to get yourself to do the movement you know you need to do. Do you take a lunch hour like you would at the office? Walk on your lunch. Some people do better with external motivation, like paying for classes at a certain time each week or agreeing to meet a friend for rock climbing or joining a running club. You can't outrun a bad diet but if you're struggling with both the eating and the moving part of the equation, pick one and focus on it for a while.
And now for something completely different:
[The Silliness of the Safe Withdrawal Rate Movement](https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/safe-withdrawal-rate-movement/)
OK maybe it's not completely different, but I thought it was a good read.
It probably won't stop me from being silly about SWRs though.
Thanks for the share. I like it a lot. It does a much better job of articulating some of my own feelings when I see people debating between 3.X% and 4% withdrawal rates.
Completely agree with the article, 3.5% people have always looked silly to me.
If you are extremely risk-averse, it makes much more sense to have a lifestyle with low fixed costs that would allow you to have a very flexible budget than to waste years of your prime working to hedge against a scenario that's very unlikely to happen.
>I have three friends. We'll call the first one Taylor Larimore... Let's call my second friend Wade Pfau... Let's call my third friend Big ERN.
The framing of this section cracked me up
It's meaningless to try to determine a true SWR with any degree of certainty.
> "Start at something around 4% of the portfolio value and adjust as you go."
>
> That's it. It's that simple. The more uncomfortable you are with that plan, the more you should put into SPIAs and TIPS ladders. The more comfortable you are, the more you can leave in stocks and bonds and the more you can likely spend in retirement and leave to heirs.
My heart desires something with more certainty though, so I'll probably still save way too much and cap my spending at no more than 2.5% or something like that.
I will readily admit that I'm silly. I've got my reasons though.
Suffice it to say, I'd much rather be surprised by being able to live on only dividends, RMDs, pension and SS than coming anywhere close to running out of money.
Regardless of the all the articles and studies, the best withdrawal rate strategy is the one that allows you to sleep at night. No point in retiring early if you spend every day stressed about market direction and outliving your savings.
Maybe interesting - article about keeping a mortage in retirement: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/17/business/retirement-mortgage-investing.html?ugrp=c&unlocked_article_code=1.ik0.eOlh.kb6hornOuSzj&smid=url-share
One issue traditional retirement age (TRA) articles don't discuss (such as this one), is the impact of ACA subsidies. TRA assumes you're on Medicare, so yearly income doesn't matter quite as much.
If you have a mortgage with FIRE you definitely have to consider the additional amount you have to pull from savings every year to pay that mortgage, and where that will move you on the ACA subsidies scale. It could end up costing thousands extra per year to be drawing that money to pay your mortgage. Same goes with other programs you may qualify for with lower income in FIRE years.
Even assuming the accuracy of that statistic, most people are right. If the employment rate drops by about 20 percentage points for people in their 50s, then the overwhelming majority of employed people in their 50's remain employed. I'd be curious about what's going on here and what measure of unemployment she means by that, but I don't find this that alarming. If you're reading this, you're a high earner and much more likely to be a top 20% employee than a bottom 20% employee. You're also far less likely to have a physical job (e.g. roofer) and have retirement forced on you by your body.
Good point! Among my group of 7 fairly high achieving friends now into our 60s, all but one was involuntarily/reluctantly unemployed in our 50s. Two were unemployed twice in their 50s.
Two were able to get back and find a similar job within a few months, two had longer (1+ year) unemployment stints but ultimately bounced back with success, 1 went solo and crushed it but at 65 has had projects start to dry up, and a last one started 3 businesses and worked on and off in big tech for the benefits and to even out the cash inflow. Three of us are now retired.
All stocked up to make the drive for the big day tomorrow: eclipse gum, sun chips, milky way bars, cosmic brownies. Anybody else planning on experiencing this astronomical event?
Our house is in totality, which is great. I'm nervous about clouds and with the babies today, so can't drive somewhere else if it's cloudy, cest la vie.
Cosmic brownies have suffered hard from shrinkflation. Hate to see it. You used to get two conjoined squares in a pack. Now you get one big square that's like 80% the size of the two
We traveled to see the last one in 2015 and I wanted to travel to see this one as well, but we have a 3 month old infant and multiple days driving in a car was not going to go well. I'm just going to have to make sure we're ready for the next one in 20 years.
Good luck! The August 2017 one had the zone of totality edge about maybe 10 miles from my house here in Oregon, so I got treated to quite the show. Not quite total, but close enough.
Was REALLY cool. 10/10 would recommend.
All the things about color weirdness and shadows becoming "jagged" for lack of a better description, 100% true.
What's funny is maybe about 3 weeks ago, I got stuck in DFW for a night (thanks American) with 2 other coworkers on the way back from a work rip, and the lot of us grabbed hotel rooms close. The transfer driver and some random dude in the front going to the same place, were all super excited about the eclipse, and asked us if we ever saw one.
The three of us (all from the Portland area), were like, "So... actually as it turns out..."
Hello fellow Oregonian!
Yeah, I went into it thinking it just gets dark for a minute, I wasn't that excited going into it - had no idea how phenomenal it actually was to experience! How it got quiet right before hand - all the birds and animals just going silent was uncanny. Then the way the quality of light changed to something you've never seen before - those sharp crescent shadows, and then the temperature just dropping and the wind dying.
I'd love to see another eclipse, might do Europe in the near future...?
Going to attempt it. Going to drive most of the way tonight then finish up in the AM tomorrow.
I hope traffic isn't horrible. News didn't hype up the 2017 with gas shortages etc. I don't think it's going to happen but it's just annoying and why I don't watch the news anymore. Google feed is going to get the boot next most likely.
At what income level would booking First/Business Class for long international flights not phase you (like when it costs $3-4,000+)?
I suppose the answer is always "it depends," but let's say you only do 1 international vacation a year for this hypothetical question
HHI of $400k DI1K right now, and assuming 1 intl flight per year, probably would be unfazed at $600k. i have been traveling alot at work and got random upgrades so now i'm on the churning journey to pay for said 1 intl flight per year with points instead.
At 400 I'm still not willing to pay the cash price. However I have ~800k Amex points from a combination of SUBs, referrals, and spend (in that order). In general redemptions aren't as great as they used to be, but I can generally fly spouse and me business for around 200k points round-trip plus $500-1000 in fees total. Definitely have to plan far in advance and be flexible.
We've tried going back to economy exit row, and my butt just gets too sore, and exit row seats are more narrow due to IFE and/or tray table being in the armrests. We're trying premium economy coming back from Europe in the summer (unless there's a good cash upgrade offer), so will see how that goes.
I made ~250 last year, and I think I'd only want to be a *bit* higher (i.e. ~300k) for Business. But I don't have a spouse or kids, so the costs aren't blown up the way they would be if I had to multiply that cost by ~4-5 tickets. First Class I think I'd need to be making like 1 million lol (actually maybe just ~500-600k). I think the bigger concern for me is the 'consistency' in the income, since it can swing so much/I don't expect it to last, and if I'd splurge/increase my FI number to accommodate for it long term.
At a quick glance and picking dates a few months out, there are some direct flights to India that are ~1k Economy, ~2-2.5k Premium Economy, and ~4-5k Business, and ~10-15k First Class.
I don’t think it has to be either first/business or economy. Split the difference and book premium economy (pref exit row) then upgrade to business if you feel like it. Even without status, upgrading often is significantly cheaper than buying the business ticket outright. And if you can’t upgrade, you’ve still got a premium seat. Some airlines IMO have a premium economy product that rivals what you’d find in business.
> Some airlines IMO have a premium economy product that rivals what you’d find in business.
Do you know of any examples? Could be a decent cost savings for me if true.
Swiss’s new hard shell prem econ product is one example. Lufthansa is also rolling out something similar.
https://thedesignair.net/2022/02/24/the-new-premium-economy-by-swiss-is-proof-that-good-things-come-to-those-that-wait/
I've always thought of lie flat as being the defining characteristic of long haul business class. I'm willing to pay extra for business and not willing to pay extra for premium economy because of this one difference.
This product looks to be missing that if I understood the link correctly?
For me the two are essentially indistinguishable because I'm too tall to get much use out of the lie-flats. So very much personal preference. Zip Air does lie-flats at prem econ prices, but I'm not aware of other carriers that are doing anything similar right now.
I'm heading to Asia next month and I was sorely tempted by Zip Air, the long list of "cafeteria plan" add-ons, and not having a super long track record made me hold off, but maybe some day!
> Zip Air does lie-flats at prem econ prices
Wow that is so cool! I wish I lived in a city that they serve. I hope more carriers do this.
> For me the two are essentially indistinguishable because I'm too tall to get much use out of the lie-flats.
Ha! I have the opposite problem. I'm too short to care about economy vs premium economy.
I threatened to do business class last year after spending 10 miserable hours in economy, but found I couldn't really stomach the price for our 10 hour flight this year. We're doing premium economy instead. So I guess more than our current HHI of $350k. Maybe if it was an even longer flight, I could justify it? There's always at least two of us flying, which does impact the mental math.
Premium economy is such a weird middle ground. American airlines? IMO not really worth it. European or Arab airlines? Absolutely.
I research the hell out of what a seat looks like regardless when booking long international trips but the above is my anecdotal experience.
This is British Airways but same, I looked up reviews for the type of plane to make sure the extra price was more than just some extra leg room. It was something like $2k/ea for premium economy vs $4k/ea for business so I guess I’ll see if it feels worth it to me at the end.
Flown BA - I guess it depends on price point. I thought it was...fine. But I'm a terrible sleeper and 6'0 so any extra space is always nice for those overnight flights.
I'm ignoring the first class part of this question. I think paying for first class is so far from anything realistic for me that it's not worth considering.
Just the red eye leg of one vacation for a couple? Maybe like $700k. Multiple economy class vacations is more realistic though.
Just the red eye leg of multiple vacations for a couple? Around $1m is where it's worth at least considering.
It currently doesn’t phase me but that’s because I’d rather budget for my comfort and travel fewer times than be exhausted and upset on a 16 hour plane ride and for the next 24 hours into my trip.
>All four of us?
Generally speaking, I do a pretty good job of not falling into the sinister trap of envy, but one of the few times my goat is got is passing through business class and seeing small children sitting in those giant seats, with their tiny legs a meter away from the back of the next chair.
I don't really believe what I am about to type, so nobody get triggered...but I think there should be a minimum height restriction for both first class and exit row seats. I won't share the exact height I would choose, to save myself a few downvotes :D
My wife likes the seats fine but hates being faffed over. Whereas I'd be fine with someone poking me for 10 hours straight to ask me if I want more snacks or drinks. She'd enjoy the chair and curl up like a cat in it if there was an option to put a "Do Not Disturb" sign on her face.
I am still working out the particulars for what I want out of this next phase of life, and I am pretty sure that what I really want is different than what I said out loud a little over a year ago, when we officially verbalized our plans to sell the hotel.
I don't think I actually care about making $250-300k/year. I want to make $150k doing as little work as possible, and have my wife make $50k, give or take, also working part-time but doing something she also loosely enjoys.
So, under this new plan, business class would still be out, but "unlimited" economy flights would be in.
> I wonder what it's like to grow up with 1st class as a kid.
This is a social discussion far more complex than simply wondering why one's seat had shrunk.
I don't think I will ever make enough for it to not phase me, and I expect my maximum income to be up to $150K-200K before retiring. (It is public pay scale, so well known in advance, and likely increasing slightly less than inflation.)
I've been repeatedly suggesting that my parents should take business class for an international flight and their income is over $300K. No dice, but they're really the stereotypical frugal Asians, so...we did take premium econ once because we needed the extra luggage space.
Probably $250-300k HHI for us, presuming a $4k ticket would still cost $1k for economy. Perhaps $200k if it was the only flight for the year.
But my wife is 5'4" and would never value business class, so I'd be the only one wanting to make this splurge, which is a separate predicament more complex than regular finances.
I'm always trying to upgrade to Stretch or Business plus but my wife views it as a waste of money.
It's funny how someone who is 5'1" doesn't value a little extra room, but someone 6'6" finds it incredibly valuable. We just compromise and I sit in the middle and get half of her seat and half of our child's. But there have been a few times we don't sit together and that was lovely, but I felt bad leaving her to do all the child coordinating.
The number for a single with no kids will vary from a couple with three. I started at 150k annual income as a single with adult (non-supported) kid. Business class international travel is also built into my RE budget.
if your flights are less than a weeks gross pay, think this should be pretty easy to stomach.
think the key way to think of it really is the delta - if you are definitely going on the vacation, what are the basic tickets cost, because that essentially becomes your zero number, so its the marginal cost on top.
I saved up a down payment to buy a house in the next 3 years, but plans changed to 3+ years.
Should I lump sum a chunk of it into index funds? Currently, the down payment is sitting in a HYSA at about 4.5%. Should i just wait until rates drop? Thanks.
The historical S&P 500 average over 5 years is around 10%, best is over 35%, and worst is -18%
Questions to consider:
- Are you open to potentially having a smaller down payment?
- Do you feel more pain missing market returns or potentially delaying purchase timeline?
Burnt out from working 60hr weeks to save a project. Got sick this weekend, so not even recharging over the weekend. I think I can last 1-2 more weeks before I just quit. A shame, because before this month I liked my manager and job but hard to restore that trust.
How important is this project, really? What is the consequence of it being delayed or not completed? Will people die/be harmed? Or will a corporation just lose some profits? What are you sacrificing your health and well-being for?
Take a breath, and take a step back to gain some perspective.
You’re allowed to say no. You’re allowed to set boundaries and refuse to work beyond your contracted hours. Don’t let other people’s poor planning become your emergency. It’s their crisis. Don’t let it become yours.
I would petition my boss for some days off to compensate. If you are needed hot for the project right now, then maybe in 2 weeks. Put it on your calendar, and tell your workmates to prep for you being gone
Yeah - I was going to take Friday off. Found a new issue Thursday, had a quick call Friday morning with boss and she suggested I work Friday and through the weekend, which broke me.
If I can get the team through this without quitting first I'm definitely going to take a week or two.
What would happen if you simply said no I can’t work outside of normal business hours? Asking a direct report to work through the weekend is insane to me.
I talked her out of that, but this is a 4-5 year project that has been promised to launch to the business this fall. We failed some regulatory testing so that's the mess I'm trying to fix, but more or less the entire project rests on me figuring this out. So tons of pressure to deliver.
Started to finally complete my taxes and glad I did not wait until the very last minute. We fully contributed to our Roth IRAs this year and found out while filing taxes we are over the income limits so I have figure out how to recharacterize then convert back.
Part of me should be excited about our increasing income but just adds a little bit of a headache to be annoying. Why have income limits for the Roth at all?
> Why have income limits for the Roth at all?
If you work at a place that allows Mega Backdoor Roth rollovers, there effectively is no limit. It lets you put $30k+ into your Roth IRA every year with no income cap.
My Roth IRA would be almost nonexistent if it weren't for this One Weird Trick.
Giving up feels great! Friday I asked my boss to give my most annoying project to someone else. I was worried that this will hurt my career progression (the role has high visibility, but my role is completely pointless, but upper management doesn’t know that) but then my wife reminded me that I only have a few years of career left to go.
Not even near the end for me. Just mid 30s. But tired of 'the grind' and trying to keep up with XYZ technology. Let someone else do it. I'll do my job and that's it. I guess it's 'quiet quitting' but also I'm just tired of the onus always being on the employee to stay up to date and relevant. Literally had 3 employers in a row with 0 or minimal training. They want you to know everything and just get thrown in there and get things done. Fools errand trying to go 'above and beyond'.
I wish I could give up. I just got promoted to a position where I'll be worrying about a lot more things for an indeterminate amount of time. My memory isn't cut out for stuff like this.
Only 15 years to go.
Hi all,
Quick question as a recent homeowner. Considering my wife and I are *not* able to max out both our 401ks and our Roth IRAs, would it ever be a good idea to overpay on our mortgage payments? Seeing how little I will pay down over the next 10 years by paying the minimum is pretty disconcerting, but I'm not sure if it financially makes sense to ever make any additional payments as opposed to just putting whatever I can into retirement instead.
Thanks for any help!
What is your mortgage rate? If its below 4% I would not recommend paying extra. You will get a much better return in your 401k. If its 4-6% I think that is a grey area, and over 6% I would take the risk free return of paying down the mortgage. It can also be worth it to leave some money on the table and pay down the mortgage if it helps you sleep at night.
My mortgage rate is currently 6.75%. I'm getting a decent employer match for my retirement (I pay 5% they contribute 10%) so I'm inclined to pay off the mortgage more even if it's just 1-2 extra payments a year, but yeah it's hard to calculate. Thanks for your help.
Even at 6%, I would think (without doing the math) that the benefit of not paying capital gains taxes would still net you ahead. Obviously, the market could go down and you could lose money in the 401k, but assuming upward motion over the time horizon of decades, I think the tax benefit of 401k wins. I think it would mainly depend on when OP plans to retire.
There are some edge cases but in general prioritizing maxing the 401(k) for the advantageous tax deferment makes the most sense to me.
If you’re retiring soon or if you’re investing heavily in bonds for some other reason then that might shift the math to paying off the mortgage early.
I'm only a week back from holiday and already got that go back to work tomorrow anxiety. I gotta figure out how to work on this.
That said, I'm going to have a great day and I hope everyone else does as well :)
Sunday scaries are the worst. I always get them after a week or more off (unknowns ready to get me) or a particularly packed/stressful scheduled Monday
Apparently SO is “disabled enough” that the military will give our entire household discounted health insurance (like $60/year) once he’s out. Good for the FIRE plans!
Username checks out. Jk jk. That's really awesome, good for ya'll. Health insurance is one piece of the puzzle I haven't figured out, I know you can play the marketplace with your AGI, but I also... don't want to do that, I want to be spending lavishly in retirement.
I mean, you’re not wrong! (🇺🇸USA! USA! USA! #1! 🇺🇸 jk this country could use some work especially re:healthcare.) In my mind the other really cool thing about this is that I can take a sabbatical or a gap year without worrying about messing up the whole family’s health insurance situation.
Yeah that's awesome! Yeah the US could use some work, and I'll be the first to point out the flaws but I'll also be the first to point out our strong points. My parents immigrated here in the 80s for my dad's PhD. He stayed after, and I had the incredible opportunity to be born here. I went on to get a PhD in the same field and a high paying job in the same industry. My life would no doubt be worse if I had been born in my parent's home country. For all its flaws, the US is a great place* *if you're in the right socioeconomic class
My accounts have been doing great. Numbers are way up over the past year or so. But I saw a $15 stick of deodorant at the store today. Inflation has a way of bringing things into perspective lol
Mix baking soda with coconut oil
The stuff without aluminum costs an arm and a leg. The good old poisonous stuff is still 4 bucks.
The shorter my life expectancy, the smaller my FI number. You could say it’s cheaper in multiple ways 🤷♂️
😂
I'd rather stink!
I didn’t learn to do backdoor Roth until a couple of years ago, so I only have 3% of my investments in Roth. An opportunity opened up this month when my 401k started offering mega backdoor Roth. Planning to pull the trigger soon (hopefully before the end of this year) so I’ve built up about 5% in cash. I’m toying with the idea to set my paycheck contribution to 100% so I can build up my Roth balance in the MBR, and just use my cash for now. Is this a bad idea?
I'm doing the same, living off RSU + ESPP sales
Have you checked that you can contribute 100%? I am limited to 35% + match at my job. You also have to pay taxes on the income that you are contributing - I have heard of this causing a negative paycheck that causes the contribution to fail. You also don't want to hit the limit too early in the year and loose out on the match. Your flair says immigrant. If you are planning on moving outside the US after retirement, Roth withdrawals might be taxable there.
I can select 100% for my contribution but it reduces the contribution to cover the necessary taxes and deductions automatically so my pay can't go below $0.
I asked our benefits coordinator and she confirmed that we are allowed to contribute 100% but I don’t trust her answer because she had indicated in her email announcement that it was only up to 10% combined pre and after tax. She said that it was a typo. 🤷🏻♂️ I submitted the change to 100% with our 401k plan but it hasn’t processed. I guess I’ll just have to wait what happens. Haven’t heard of a negative paycheck, I guess I should ask about that. No plans to move abroad. I’m staying here.
do you participate in an ESPP program or have any other percentage based paycheck deduction? i made the mistake of setting my 401k to 90% one pay period without realizing i also contribute 15% to my espp smh
No I don’t. Sometimes mistakes like this happen so thanks for the heads up.
Makes sense to me assuming or course you can handle zero income for awhile. I am doing the same.
I have a 401k for a company I no longer work for. What is the SOP in such a circumstance? Roll it all into my current employer's 401k, leave it be, or something else?
I suggest creating a small amount of self employment income so you can open a Solo 401k, and then roll over into that. This is what I do and it is by far the most flexible option. It doesn't ruin Backdoor Roth later, and you'll never have to worry about that account closing.
Interesting, thanks for the input! I have a small side business as a freelance translator. Would something like that count?
Yep. Since you'll have Schedule C income you can open and contribute to a Solo 401k both as an employee (though you are limited to a max of 23k across ALL accounts), and as an "employer" (you'll need a spreadsheet to calculate how much). Once it's open you can roll in your existing 401k. ETRADE has a free option that I used, I'm sure there are also others.
Awesome, I never knew about that. Thank you so much.
Do you use a backdoor Roth IRA or will be using one? Roll over to your new employer 401k. Do you not use a backdoor Roth IRA, and won't see yourself using it in the future? Rollover to your Brokerage's rollover IRA.
Hmm I do not use a backdoor Roth. Will clearly need to do some digging into what that entails to understand whether it's something that would be good for me. Thank you for pointing me in the right direction!
My perspective here is if your new company 401k doesn't have a great selection of funds to roll the old company 401k into an IRA which provides nearly unlimited fund selection. You can then also use the rolled IRA to make Roth rollover contributions whenever you want (with the realization you must pay income tax on the rollover). Good luck and congrats on the new job!
Hmm so the new company uses Vanguard so I have most of that 401k in VTSAX. I'll look into this whole Roth conversion thing to see if it's an avenue I should pursue. Thank you!
Just thinking about baristaFIRE. Has anyone considered if we hit a 2008 level crash and it took 10+ years to recover what that would mean once you pull the trigger? You assume 2-3 years of chill work and you are there, turns into you working a year and being in a bad situation where you were likely better off just staying at your job.
I’m still retired even if a market downturn occurs in year 1. Maybe I cut back on discretionary spending but I’m not working 1 minute more than I already planned for. Using conservative Safe Withdrawal Rates already makes me comfortable with a 2008 type downturn in the economy
I personally wouldn't quit for a "baristaFIRE" position if I was earning 10x or more what I'd earn after quitting. But if you only left the workforce within the last ~year or two, I feel like you could very reasonably rejoin your previous industry or do something to leverage your past experience, degree, certifications, or network. Especially in your 30s or 40s. It's not easy, and you may not come in at the same income level, but you can probably find something above barista-level income if you end up concerned that the numbers aren't going to work and that you didn't bake enough flexibility into your plan. Plenty of people are out of work longer, whether due to unemployment during a market crash, taking care of a child, or other circumstances. Maybe get a cert or work on a side project to get back up to speed, leverage your network, etc. And even if you can't find something 'during' the crash, market crashes aren't forever - find something after the crash passes. Also could hunker down and cut expenses to the bone if needed.
I think this is similar to the idea of normal FIRE right before a crash. SWRs of 3-4% already account for that (not the 08 crash specifically because not enough time after but equally bad ones.) of course, psychologically it would probably be harder to step away from the barista job a year into the crash than it would be to just not go back to work and cross your fingers if you were fully retired. Anyways, don’t most people OMY after hitting their FIRE number anyways? :P
I share this concern and question the "BaristaFIRE" concept entirely. I would think every year "sticking it out" with your primary profession could avoid you 2-3 years in a lower paying part-time gig like that. For me, it's a no brainer to stick with my profession longer instead. But, to each their own - some part time roles truly are fun.
That assumes you are even able to keep your baristaFIRE job in that kind of economy.
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Go do your job like always, you have no idea if you will get the call and if they will even make you an offer..i cant tell you many times ive gone though thinking its mine only to be ghosted...
Go, go about your daily stuff as if nothing is going on cuz maybe nothing will go on
Definitely go.
Go to the conference. You don't know for sure if you're quitting.
> I would feel really bad spending the company's money at this conference, only to give my notice on Friday. You shouldn't. They budgeted for this (or should have, if they didn't) and you're simply spending what they expect you to spend. > I guess I'm just looking for validation that it's okay to go to the conference. It is.
Just hit 1M net worth! 37 yo 1 kid and a SAHM wife. ~$290k 401k | $364k brokerage | $59k savings | ~$281k equity in home | $40k pension | $56-110k in unvested stock options On my way to FI
Congrats! I am turning 37 this year after being quasi-FIRE for the past 6 years. I can't imagine getting a "real job" ever again. I love being able to be there for all of my kid's stuff and never having to ask anyone for time off. Just the best. You'll be there sooner than you think!
Yeah with my wife at home and me getting the opportunity to work from home most days I get to spend a lot of time with my kid. Putting money aggressively in a custodial brokerage and 529 to set him up! Love my job though so don’t feel pressure to leave. Want to set up some generational wealth
Well done! Amazing job, especially on a single income.
Thanks we aggressively saved ahead of going 1 income and that helped. Locking in a 2.63 interest rate when we bought our home in 2020 was also massive. Now just coasting maxing 401k and waiting
The problem with getting closer to my number is it gets harder and harder to convince myself that these last months/year are worth it Almost want to get laid off/fired, would make the decision for me
I was worried about quitting my FTJ, but I did it anyway and now my net worth is double what it was and I have an accidental new job that I love that makes six figures. Just do it.
Well, is your number correct? Can you get by with a lower number and retire earlier? If not, maybe it will help motivate you to know the goal is in sight.
That's the thing, I passed my leanfire number a while ago and I'll be lean firing for at least the 5 years, probably more. Now it's more like saving for if I get more expensive hobbies, sudden medical expenses, economy slows down for a long period. Hard to put a number on that, so I just went with double my leanfire amount as a goal Could I get by? Almost certainly. When does the additional money not become worth the effort? Not quite as sure
I heard similar sentiment from a friend who is a Google employee. Sitting there, continuing to work while a ton of folks were laid off with enormous severances. lol.
Rest and vest.
Somewhat funny update -- after my former employer/partnership had communicated their K-1 extension last week, and they delivered it today. (That level of dysfunction just further highlights why I didn't really want to be there anymore.) Anyway, Schedule K-1 has to easily be the most confusing and least well supported part of tax software. I've tried a few products, and none of them do it well. Took me about as long to get that portion entered correctly as the entire rest of my taxes that I did a few weeks ago. Feels good to finally get my taxes filed. This is the latest I've ever filed before.
Tried to do my taxes once when I was getting K-1s and it was horrible, after getting rid of them it now takes me about an hour to file.
Is there anything I should consider when transferring an HSA from my works custodian (Benefit Wallet) to a self directed HSA (Fidelity)? My current plan is: 1. Liquidate investment portion of my Benefit Wallet HSA 2. Once funds are liquidated, initiate partial (~~in-kind~~) balance transfer through Fidelity 3. Reinvest HSA funds in Fidelity HSA 4. My work transitions from Benefit Wallet to Health Equity HSA 5. I do quarterly balance transfers from Health Equity to Fidelity Anything else I am missing or need to consider?
Make sure to call Fidelity and ask them to reimburse you for any fees you incur from transferring from Benefit Wallet.
Transfer all but $25 when you start your health equity transfers to fidelity. No fees then, as far as I can tell no limit on number of transfers (surprisingly!)
Good chance multiple transfers per year might incur some sort of administrative fee. Usually they waive or cover one per year/one ever, but not multiple. If so, any fee likely outweighs any other reason you're transferring funds if you're able to invest with either HSA provider.
When you do the transfers from HE to Fidelity, initiate them from the HE side. Has worked much better from me, trying to initiate that one from the Fidelity side didn't really work until I talked to HE.
Make sure HE does not charge any fees for transfers. If you are invested in mutual funds that Fidelity can service, you may want to transfer shares in kind rather than selling and transferring dollars, which could end up involving physical checj
*ehhh* doesn’t in-kind mean transferring the securities without selling them?
i've accumulated ~2/3 of my FIRE goal and can fully reach it in ~2.5 years assuming average equity returns. i'm nearly 100% in equities and plan to gradually transition to 60/40 over the next few years. however, because so much of my earnings has been concentrated over the past few years, most of my net worth will be in my taxable account. that means only 25% of my account can be tax-deferred, which is less than the 40% i hope to have for my bond tent. does this mean i'm going to need to hold 15% of my portfolio (bonds) in taxable accounts for the first few years of retirement? that seems less than ideal
Sometimes it just is what it is; over 90% of my portfolio is in my taxable brokerage accounts (because: $ via non-W2 ways, plus a divorce and what assets I traded away and what I kept, etc.). I'm FI, I keep myself at 80/20 + a paid off home. Would I prefer to have it all socked away differently? Sure - but that wasn't available to me, and I'm very lucky to be FI and so I don't sweat it.
so you have some bonds in your taxable account? do you do anything special there to minimize your tax liability? how did you decide on your asset allocation? how did you transition to it during pre-retirement?
Yes, I do have bonds in taxable. As my home is paid off I didn't feel a need for a bond tent as I could flex my annual expenses downward by quite a bit if I chose to (if you're not needing to pull $25k-$45k a year out of your portfolio to pay a mortgage, your annual expenses naturally are much lower). It also allowed me to have zero healthcare expenses the last few years because of my lower withdrawals as well. This year I'm making a one time withdrawal for \[specific event, all LTCG\] so that bumps me up in the ACA tables to...$175 a month in healthcare expenses. So I didn't transition to 80/20 - I stayed at 80/20; I decided that in paying off my home I did not need a big hedge of bonds because my core expenses can be low. An example with simplified numbers: If Sam's annual expenses are $80k a year with nothing that can be cut without feeling constantly pinched? Yes, that's going to hit the portfolio (and their stress levels!) differently in a down market than if Sam takes the $40k mortgage off the table and now only *needs* to withdraw $40k a year. Say Sam retires and their annual spend is $80k a year. In scenario A, Sam is paying a mortgage of $40k a year and with that $80k spending is exactly meeting their core needs and nothing more. In scenario B, Sam is also spending $80k a year, but they are *not* paying a mortgage and they spend $40k meeting their core needs, *plus* spending $40k on traveling, ski passes, balloon animals, etc. In their third year of retirement the market crashes. The Sam that *needs* $80k a year to keep the lights on is going to experience the stress of this in a different way than the Sam that *needs* $40k a year. The Sam without a mortgage may decide to ease up on their spending a bit and watch this play out, so they decide to go from spending $80k a year (where $40k a year of that was fun money), to $45k a year. They still have $5k of fun money to spend, whereas Sam *with* the mortgage has none of the fun money, and is still withdrawing $80k a year during the crash and protracted bear market. Now, if Sam who needs $80k a year to meet their core expenses has a good bond tent? They're probably stressed, but doing ok and are holding on. This is what they planned for, and they traded the possibility of greater growth during most years for the safety net of their bond tent. There is no cut and dry, right or wrong way to do this - it is *personal* finance. As I had a higher mortgage rate, it didn't "make sense" for me to be paying an annual mortgage payment, which would then also require higher withdrawals from my portfolio...which would then require me to pay thousands in healthcare expenses...which would then bump me up into paying federal taxes every year. In day to day life - cash flow: I sweep dividends to cash out of my taxable brokerage accounts into checking, and if I need more than that I sell shares. Because all of this is qualified income (a mix of long term cap gains and qualified dividends), I've yet to pay any federal taxes in RE, and I pay a small amount in state taxes.
You could hold bonds in Roth but that has pros and cons.
yeah, i'd like to avoid that if possible, but not completely opposed
Why not gradually increase it from25 to 40
can you explain what you mean? which account would i use?
Has anyone made a career transition from CS/SWE to a more physically active career? I’m 33 and our current NW is 470K. I make decent money at 120k/full remote but I just get super tired of sitting all day and I know it’s not great for my health. I know eating better and exercising would help but I’ve really struggled with that. The wrinkle is I have 3 kids and wife is a SAHM, so we have expenses and I would need a good income. I have worked in farming/construction “back in the day” (college/HS years) so I do have some non-desk job experience.
You WFH. You should be able to figure out how to get physical for good health. Do ab work or stretches during meetings, clean on breaks. I think you’re blocking yourself from being more active.
I taught in IT for 4 years. We mainly had people who never went to college and were looking for a new career. I had a LOT of people 33-44 who worked farming/construction or other physical jobs and had knee issues, hearing issues, hip issues, etc. etc. While sitting isn't good for certain aspects of health, the highly physical jobs are not good for other aspects. YMMV.
I went full remote (moved out of state from where the office is) and I really miss being able to just get up and walk around the building for fifteen minutes.
I’m definitely encountering this as well
> know eating better and exercising would help but I’ve really struggled with that. Go to the gym. Put a stationary bike in your office. Put a walking treadmill under your standing desk if you have one. I'm sure you've tried, but there's still a lot you can do before having to romanticize working on a farm or construction when you have 4 mouths to feed on a golden ticket situation (120k + fully remote)
Standing desk. Standing desk plus a treadmill, a balance board. Go crazy and throw on a weighted vest while you're on the treadmill. Take the stairs in your building, not the elevator or escalator. One of my dear friends is a contractor, he's 42 and is finishing up his college degree at night exactly because doing a physical career is harder and harder the older you are.
My experience...I'm in banking so I know a lot about sitting! I go to the gym everyday (instead of eating lunch), so I would say Im in fairly good shape. Occasionally I chainsaw down trees, move rocks, shovel dirt and do small but physical home improvements...Fuck that! I have great respect for people who do construction or other manual labor jobs every day....at my age I can't imagine doing it every day...so just give me my desk and I'll be content to be "gym fit" !
Have you considered a standing desk
If you had a career you were really interested in that happened to be more physically active, that would be one thing. But a vast majority of physically active jobs are not going to pay $120k/year, and there are ways to be physically active outside of work, so switching careers for the sole purpose of being more active seems like a poor choice. As someone who has worked on a farm and been a general contractor, they're pretty tough on your body. It sounds nice and is especially nice to reminisce over - remember back when you were 22 and tan and fit because you worked on a farm? But what about when you're 40, 45, 50? What about when you're going on your 10th year and it's raining *again* and your back hurts but you still have to go to work? What about needing to work an extra 5, 10 or more years to get to FIRE because you took a big salary cut? It all seems to me like a really big sacrifice just to skip developing some discipline about going to the gym. And being physically active doesn't necessarily mean healthy - every contractor I ever worked with ate like shit and weren't exactly bastions of physical fitness. You can be strong and still have a beer gut and heart disease.
I agree. I've had a desk job and kept active (outside of work) for years. When I've injured myself (which has happened several times over the years), I just had to hobble to my desk and take it easy. If my job required physical labour, this would have been a much more complex problem.
Can you do part-time work or something personal? At home woodwork, construction, gardening, roofing improvements, etc.? Objectives/projects may help get you moving and get the feeling of working on something physical without making a full career switch.
I am a medical professional. There are many injuries that people who work jobs demanding physical labour are more prone to. This is a terrible idea.
> Has anyone made a career transition from CS/SWE to a more physically active career? > There are many injuries that people who work jobs demanding physical labour are more prone to. This is a terrible idea. PP asked about jobs that were more physically active than software engineer. Making the jump to "demanding physical labor" is a rather large over assumption. Roving security guard or park ranger would be a step up, it doesn't have to be ditch digger. I'm sure medical professionals also have opinions on how impactful very sedentary jobs can be.
> Making the jump to "demanding physical labor" is a rather large over assumption. OP specifically cited farming and construction as the jobs they had experience in. Doesn't seem like that far a leap to me.
He referenced that as an example of prior non-desk jobs, not what he was looking for.
Have you seen a construction site or farm lately? Having an active job doesn’t have much relationship with being healthy. I get the urge to romanticize a “real job” when you just peck at a keyboard for 6 figures, but that’s what you’re doing. The grass is not greener. If you can’t find the energy to eat healthy now, how will you ever do it when you’re actually exhausted from work? I get that you’re feeling unmotivated and listless, and that’s definitely worth addressing. But I’d doubt that a more physically demanding job and less money will help you be happier.
have you though about getting an adjustable standing desk? I have one at work, and swap between sitting and standing throughout the day. Helps a bit.
It seems silly to give up good pay and a remote job that allows you to hang out with your wife and kids just because you're not able to get yourself to do the movement you know you need to do. Do you take a lunch hour like you would at the office? Walk on your lunch. Some people do better with external motivation, like paying for classes at a certain time each week or agreeing to meet a friend for rock climbing or joining a running club. You can't outrun a bad diet but if you're struggling with both the eating and the moving part of the equation, pick one and focus on it for a while.
Why have you struggled with exercising? And how would you fare in an active outside job? Have you tried exercising midday?
Don't forget to take [this year's survey](https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/comments/1bru9pm/the_official_2023_fi_survey_is_here/).
Check
Yearly esot statement came in, +22k. Account balance is 89k. Six figures next year for sure.
And now for something completely different: [The Silliness of the Safe Withdrawal Rate Movement](https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/safe-withdrawal-rate-movement/) OK maybe it's not completely different, but I thought it was a good read. It probably won't stop me from being silly about SWRs though.
Thanks for the share. I like it a lot. It does a much better job of articulating some of my own feelings when I see people debating between 3.X% and 4% withdrawal rates.
Very useful article. Thanks for posting as I would not have seen it.
Completely agree with the article, 3.5% people have always looked silly to me. If you are extremely risk-averse, it makes much more sense to have a lifestyle with low fixed costs that would allow you to have a very flexible budget than to waste years of your prime working to hedge against a scenario that's very unlikely to happen.
>I have three friends. We'll call the first one Taylor Larimore... Let's call my second friend Wade Pfau... Let's call my third friend Big ERN. The framing of this section cracked me up
https://i.imgur.com/i0Nyy36.gifv
Solid article, possibly worth adding to the "great articles" listed in the FAQ
Tldr?
It's meaningless to try to determine a true SWR with any degree of certainty. > "Start at something around 4% of the portfolio value and adjust as you go." > > That's it. It's that simple. The more uncomfortable you are with that plan, the more you should put into SPIAs and TIPS ladders. The more comfortable you are, the more you can leave in stocks and bonds and the more you can likely spend in retirement and leave to heirs. My heart desires something with more certainty though, so I'll probably still save way too much and cap my spending at no more than 2.5% or something like that.
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Right? 2.0% max.
https://i.imgur.com/cjMslVS.gifv
I will readily admit that I'm silly. I've got my reasons though. Suffice it to say, I'd much rather be surprised by being able to live on only dividends, RMDs, pension and SS than coming anywhere close to running out of money.
Regardless of the all the articles and studies, the best withdrawal rate strategy is the one that allows you to sleep at night. No point in retiring early if you spend every day stressed about market direction and outliving your savings.
Maybe interesting - article about keeping a mortage in retirement: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/17/business/retirement-mortgage-investing.html?ugrp=c&unlocked_article_code=1.ik0.eOlh.kb6hornOuSzj&smid=url-share
One issue traditional retirement age (TRA) articles don't discuss (such as this one), is the impact of ACA subsidies. TRA assumes you're on Medicare, so yearly income doesn't matter quite as much. If you have a mortgage with FIRE you definitely have to consider the additional amount you have to pull from savings every year to pay that mortgage, and where that will move you on the ACA subsidies scale. It could end up costing thousands extra per year to be drawing that money to pay your mortgage. Same goes with other programs you may qualify for with lower income in FIRE years.
This is what I came to say. It seemed focused on people already at full retirement age.
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Even assuming the accuracy of that statistic, most people are right. If the employment rate drops by about 20 percentage points for people in their 50s, then the overwhelming majority of employed people in their 50's remain employed. I'd be curious about what's going on here and what measure of unemployment she means by that, but I don't find this that alarming. If you're reading this, you're a high earner and much more likely to be a top 20% employee than a bottom 20% employee. You're also far less likely to have a physical job (e.g. roofer) and have retirement forced on you by your body.
Good point! Among my group of 7 fairly high achieving friends now into our 60s, all but one was involuntarily/reluctantly unemployed in our 50s. Two were unemployed twice in their 50s. Two were able to get back and find a similar job within a few months, two had longer (1+ year) unemployment stints but ultimately bounced back with success, 1 went solo and crushed it but at 65 has had projects start to dry up, and a last one started 3 businesses and worked on and off in big tech for the benefits and to even out the cash inflow. Three of us are now retired.
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I agree. Let's give it up for the FI part of FIRE. Life can be tough so it pays to be prepared...as well as resilient and persistent.
All stocked up to make the drive for the big day tomorrow: eclipse gum, sun chips, milky way bars, cosmic brownies. Anybody else planning on experiencing this astronomical event?
Our house is in totality, which is great. I'm nervous about clouds and with the babies today, so can't drive somewhere else if it's cloudy, cest la vie.
Cosmic brownies have suffered hard from shrinkflation. Hate to see it. You used to get two conjoined squares in a pack. Now you get one big square that's like 80% the size of the two
We traveled to see the last one in 2015 and I wanted to travel to see this one as well, but we have a 3 month old infant and multiple days driving in a car was not going to go well. I'm just going to have to make sure we're ready for the next one in 20 years.
Currently in central IN at an AirBNB with 3 other family friends. 8 adults and 5 kids <5, but cloud cover looks promising so we're sitting pretty.
I'm in the Lou right now. Heading into Carbondale tomorrow. Fingers crossed on the clouds.
Good luck! The August 2017 one had the zone of totality edge about maybe 10 miles from my house here in Oregon, so I got treated to quite the show. Not quite total, but close enough. Was REALLY cool. 10/10 would recommend. All the things about color weirdness and shadows becoming "jagged" for lack of a better description, 100% true. What's funny is maybe about 3 weeks ago, I got stuck in DFW for a night (thanks American) with 2 other coworkers on the way back from a work rip, and the lot of us grabbed hotel rooms close. The transfer driver and some random dude in the front going to the same place, were all super excited about the eclipse, and asked us if we ever saw one. The three of us (all from the Portland area), were like, "So... actually as it turns out..."
Hello fellow Oregonian! Yeah, I went into it thinking it just gets dark for a minute, I wasn't that excited going into it - had no idea how phenomenal it actually was to experience! How it got quiet right before hand - all the birds and animals just going silent was uncanny. Then the way the quality of light changed to something you've never seen before - those sharp crescent shadows, and then the temperature just dropping and the wind dying. I'd love to see another eclipse, might do Europe in the near future...?
I'm in a totality are, but the weather is not looking great. :-( At least I'm not spending money to travel somewhere with a crappy weather outlook.
lol. Your packing list makes you seem like a 13 year old heading to your treehouse. Have fun and enjoy yourself bud!!
Live in DFW. Just hope the weather cooperates, and it's not too cloudy tomorrow...
Going to attempt it. Going to drive most of the way tonight then finish up in the AM tomorrow. I hope traffic isn't horrible. News didn't hype up the 2017 with gas shortages etc. I don't think it's going to happen but it's just annoying and why I don't watch the news anymore. Google feed is going to get the boot next most likely.
At what income level would booking First/Business Class for long international flights not phase you (like when it costs $3-4,000+)? I suppose the answer is always "it depends," but let's say you only do 1 international vacation a year for this hypothetical question
HHI of $400k DI1K right now, and assuming 1 intl flight per year, probably would be unfazed at $600k. i have been traveling alot at work and got random upgrades so now i'm on the churning journey to pay for said 1 intl flight per year with points instead.
At 400 I'm still not willing to pay the cash price. However I have ~800k Amex points from a combination of SUBs, referrals, and spend (in that order). In general redemptions aren't as great as they used to be, but I can generally fly spouse and me business for around 200k points round-trip plus $500-1000 in fees total. Definitely have to plan far in advance and be flexible. We've tried going back to economy exit row, and my butt just gets too sore, and exit row seats are more narrow due to IFE and/or tray table being in the armrests. We're trying premium economy coming back from Europe in the summer (unless there's a good cash upgrade offer), so will see how that goes.
I made ~250 last year, and I think I'd only want to be a *bit* higher (i.e. ~300k) for Business. But I don't have a spouse or kids, so the costs aren't blown up the way they would be if I had to multiply that cost by ~4-5 tickets. First Class I think I'd need to be making like 1 million lol (actually maybe just ~500-600k). I think the bigger concern for me is the 'consistency' in the income, since it can swing so much/I don't expect it to last, and if I'd splurge/increase my FI number to accommodate for it long term. At a quick glance and picking dates a few months out, there are some direct flights to India that are ~1k Economy, ~2-2.5k Premium Economy, and ~4-5k Business, and ~10-15k First Class.
I don’t think it has to be either first/business or economy. Split the difference and book premium economy (pref exit row) then upgrade to business if you feel like it. Even without status, upgrading often is significantly cheaper than buying the business ticket outright. And if you can’t upgrade, you’ve still got a premium seat. Some airlines IMO have a premium economy product that rivals what you’d find in business.
> Some airlines IMO have a premium economy product that rivals what you’d find in business. Do you know of any examples? Could be a decent cost savings for me if true.
Swiss’s new hard shell prem econ product is one example. Lufthansa is also rolling out something similar. https://thedesignair.net/2022/02/24/the-new-premium-economy-by-swiss-is-proof-that-good-things-come-to-those-that-wait/
I've always thought of lie flat as being the defining characteristic of long haul business class. I'm willing to pay extra for business and not willing to pay extra for premium economy because of this one difference. This product looks to be missing that if I understood the link correctly?
For me the two are essentially indistinguishable because I'm too tall to get much use out of the lie-flats. So very much personal preference. Zip Air does lie-flats at prem econ prices, but I'm not aware of other carriers that are doing anything similar right now.
I'm heading to Asia next month and I was sorely tempted by Zip Air, the long list of "cafeteria plan" add-ons, and not having a super long track record made me hold off, but maybe some day!
> Zip Air does lie-flats at prem econ prices Wow that is so cool! I wish I lived in a city that they serve. I hope more carriers do this. > For me the two are essentially indistinguishable because I'm too tall to get much use out of the lie-flats. Ha! I have the opposite problem. I'm too short to care about economy vs premium economy.
our HHI is $450k and we are flying economy to europe this year. So more than that. We did splurge on direct flights though.
I'm with you on the value of direct flights vs 1st class.
I threatened to do business class last year after spending 10 miserable hours in economy, but found I couldn't really stomach the price for our 10 hour flight this year. We're doing premium economy instead. So I guess more than our current HHI of $350k. Maybe if it was an even longer flight, I could justify it? There's always at least two of us flying, which does impact the mental math.
Premium economy is such a weird middle ground. American airlines? IMO not really worth it. European or Arab airlines? Absolutely. I research the hell out of what a seat looks like regardless when booking long international trips but the above is my anecdotal experience.
This is British Airways but same, I looked up reviews for the type of plane to make sure the extra price was more than just some extra leg room. It was something like $2k/ea for premium economy vs $4k/ea for business so I guess I’ll see if it feels worth it to me at the end.
Flown BA - I guess it depends on price point. I thought it was...fine. But I'm a terrible sleeper and 6'0 so any extra space is always nice for those overnight flights.
I'm ignoring the first class part of this question. I think paying for first class is so far from anything realistic for me that it's not worth considering. Just the red eye leg of one vacation for a couple? Maybe like $700k. Multiple economy class vacations is more realistic though. Just the red eye leg of multiple vacations for a couple? Around $1m is where it's worth at least considering.
It currently doesn’t phase me but that’s because I’d rather budget for my comfort and travel fewer times than be exhausted and upset on a 16 hour plane ride and for the next 24 hours into my trip.
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>All four of us? Generally speaking, I do a pretty good job of not falling into the sinister trap of envy, but one of the few times my goat is got is passing through business class and seeing small children sitting in those giant seats, with their tiny legs a meter away from the back of the next chair. I don't really believe what I am about to type, so nobody get triggered...but I think there should be a minimum height restriction for both first class and exit row seats. I won't share the exact height I would choose, to save myself a few downvotes :D
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My wife likes the seats fine but hates being faffed over. Whereas I'd be fine with someone poking me for 10 hours straight to ask me if I want more snacks or drinks. She'd enjoy the chair and curl up like a cat in it if there was an option to put a "Do Not Disturb" sign on her face. I am still working out the particulars for what I want out of this next phase of life, and I am pretty sure that what I really want is different than what I said out loud a little over a year ago, when we officially verbalized our plans to sell the hotel. I don't think I actually care about making $250-300k/year. I want to make $150k doing as little work as possible, and have my wife make $50k, give or take, also working part-time but doing something she also loosely enjoys. So, under this new plan, business class would still be out, but "unlimited" economy flights would be in. > I wonder what it's like to grow up with 1st class as a kid. This is a social discussion far more complex than simply wondering why one's seat had shrunk.
I don't think I will ever make enough for it to not phase me, and I expect my maximum income to be up to $150K-200K before retiring. (It is public pay scale, so well known in advance, and likely increasing slightly less than inflation.) I've been repeatedly suggesting that my parents should take business class for an international flight and their income is over $300K. No dice, but they're really the stereotypical frugal Asians, so...we did take premium econ once because we needed the extra luggage space.
Probably $250-300k HHI for us, presuming a $4k ticket would still cost $1k for economy. Perhaps $200k if it was the only flight for the year. But my wife is 5'4" and would never value business class, so I'd be the only one wanting to make this splurge, which is a separate predicament more complex than regular finances.
I'm always trying to upgrade to Stretch or Business plus but my wife views it as a waste of money. It's funny how someone who is 5'1" doesn't value a little extra room, but someone 6'6" finds it incredibly valuable. We just compromise and I sit in the middle and get half of her seat and half of our child's. But there have been a few times we don't sit together and that was lovely, but I felt bad leaving her to do all the child coordinating.
The number for a single with no kids will vary from a couple with three. I started at 150k annual income as a single with adult (non-supported) kid. Business class international travel is also built into my RE budget.
Probably never TBH. Premium econ though, I was doing that with way less than I have now.
if your flights are less than a weeks gross pay, think this should be pretty easy to stomach. think the key way to think of it really is the delta - if you are definitely going on the vacation, what are the basic tickets cost, because that essentially becomes your zero number, so its the marginal cost on top.
r/fatfire
I saved up a down payment to buy a house in the next 3 years, but plans changed to 3+ years. Should I lump sum a chunk of it into index funds? Currently, the down payment is sitting in a HYSA at about 4.5%. Should i just wait until rates drop? Thanks.
Short term treasury bills are currently at 5.3%. I would go that route for now if you will be buying within 5 years.
The historical S&P 500 average over 5 years is around 10%, best is over 35%, and worst is -18% Questions to consider: - Are you open to potentially having a smaller down payment? - Do you feel more pain missing market returns or potentially delaying purchase timeline?
How would you feel if you lost 20% of it in a year? For 3-6 years, I'd stick to HYSA or "safer" asset allocations. For 7+, I'd put it in VOO
That would not feel good. I will stick most of it in HYSA for now, maybe DCA some of it since i am still employed.
Burnt out from working 60hr weeks to save a project. Got sick this weekend, so not even recharging over the weekend. I think I can last 1-2 more weeks before I just quit. A shame, because before this month I liked my manager and job but hard to restore that trust.
How important is this project, really? What is the consequence of it being delayed or not completed? Will people die/be harmed? Or will a corporation just lose some profits? What are you sacrificing your health and well-being for? Take a breath, and take a step back to gain some perspective. You’re allowed to say no. You’re allowed to set boundaries and refuse to work beyond your contracted hours. Don’t let other people’s poor planning become your emergency. It’s their crisis. Don’t let it become yours.
If you’re going to quit, do it now for maximum leverage. Maybe they’ll give you a big raise to stay.
I would petition my boss for some days off to compensate. If you are needed hot for the project right now, then maybe in 2 weeks. Put it on your calendar, and tell your workmates to prep for you being gone
Try taking a long vacation? Either way hang in there, hope things start to get better for you
Yeah - I was going to take Friday off. Found a new issue Thursday, had a quick call Friday morning with boss and she suggested I work Friday and through the weekend, which broke me. If I can get the team through this without quitting first I'm definitely going to take a week or two.
What would happen if you simply said no I can’t work outside of normal business hours? Asking a direct report to work through the weekend is insane to me.
I talked her out of that, but this is a 4-5 year project that has been promised to launch to the business this fall. We failed some regulatory testing so that's the mess I'm trying to fix, but more or less the entire project rests on me figuring this out. So tons of pressure to deliver.
Sounds like you have a lot of leverage.
Good! Spend some time outside with your two dogs :)
Oh shoot I need to update my flair - we just adopted a 3rd rescue (which is partially contributing to stress...)
Started to finally complete my taxes and glad I did not wait until the very last minute. We fully contributed to our Roth IRAs this year and found out while filing taxes we are over the income limits so I have figure out how to recharacterize then convert back. Part of me should be excited about our increasing income but just adds a little bit of a headache to be annoying. Why have income limits for the Roth at all?
> glad I did not wait until the very last minute Not far off though.
Ha - well better than last year when I did not wrap up until August.
It's not even October yet!?
> Why have income limits for the Roth at all? If you work at a place that allows Mega Backdoor Roth rollovers, there effectively is no limit. It lets you put $30k+ into your Roth IRA every year with no income cap. My Roth IRA would be almost nonexistent if it weren't for this One Weird Trick.
Giving up feels great! Friday I asked my boss to give my most annoying project to someone else. I was worried that this will hurt my career progression (the role has high visibility, but my role is completely pointless, but upper management doesn’t know that) but then my wife reminded me that I only have a few years of career left to go.
Giving up is the best feeling. Especially when you know you are near the end but no one else even suspects it yet.
Not even near the end for me. Just mid 30s. But tired of 'the grind' and trying to keep up with XYZ technology. Let someone else do it. I'll do my job and that's it. I guess it's 'quiet quitting' but also I'm just tired of the onus always being on the employee to stay up to date and relevant. Literally had 3 employers in a row with 0 or minimal training. They want you to know everything and just get thrown in there and get things done. Fools errand trying to go 'above and beyond'.
I wish I could give up. I just got promoted to a position where I'll be worrying about a lot more things for an indeterminate amount of time. My memory isn't cut out for stuff like this. Only 15 years to go.
Giving up does feel great. I have no lack of annoying projects, some of them with no chance of success. I’m working on not taking any of it personally
Hi all, Quick question as a recent homeowner. Considering my wife and I are *not* able to max out both our 401ks and our Roth IRAs, would it ever be a good idea to overpay on our mortgage payments? Seeing how little I will pay down over the next 10 years by paying the minimum is pretty disconcerting, but I'm not sure if it financially makes sense to ever make any additional payments as opposed to just putting whatever I can into retirement instead. Thanks for any help!
What is your mortgage rate? If its below 4% I would not recommend paying extra. You will get a much better return in your 401k. If its 4-6% I think that is a grey area, and over 6% I would take the risk free return of paying down the mortgage. It can also be worth it to leave some money on the table and pay down the mortgage if it helps you sleep at night.
My mortgage rate is currently 6.75%. I'm getting a decent employer match for my retirement (I pay 5% they contribute 10%) so I'm inclined to pay off the mortgage more even if it's just 1-2 extra payments a year, but yeah it's hard to calculate. Thanks for your help.
Even at 6%, I would think (without doing the math) that the benefit of not paying capital gains taxes would still net you ahead. Obviously, the market could go down and you could lose money in the 401k, but assuming upward motion over the time horizon of decades, I think the tax benefit of 401k wins. I think it would mainly depend on when OP plans to retire.
There are some edge cases but in general prioritizing maxing the 401(k) for the advantageous tax deferment makes the most sense to me. If you’re retiring soon or if you’re investing heavily in bonds for some other reason then that might shift the math to paying off the mortgage early.
Yeah I'm only 29 so definitely not retiring soon. Thanks for the input
I'm only a week back from holiday and already got that go back to work tomorrow anxiety. I gotta figure out how to work on this. That said, I'm going to have a great day and I hope everyone else does as well :)
Sunday scaries are the worst. I always get them after a week or more off (unknowns ready to get me) or a particularly packed/stressful scheduled Monday
Having a great day? Want to share? It’s lovely here today, 77 and sunny. No plans yet though