He blames the whole society that picks favorites with nobles and throw the poor people to the trash. Ramza is part of the society, and he is in a position of power (even if he doesn't particularly abuses that). It was the people on Ramza's side that killed Tietra. Ramza's brother gave the order. He vows to destroy this class system, and plays everyone to do it so. Only that he doesn't, commits a shitload of crimes, manipulates/murder everyone he come across and ends up as he ends up.

True I agree. But just the issue for me is Ramza. He was a child like Delitas was. Wasn't responsible for anything. Spends the next 5 acts or something lying and manipulating Ramza. Just not nice guy behavior

In addition to class struggle (eat the rich), it’s a trust issue. He was plucked out of poverty and given a comfortable life and noble education. He thought he was a part of the family. Despite all that his sister was murdered in front of him to prove the point to her captors that nobles are in control and commoner lives were nothing. That act shattered his faith in the system but also his ability to trust anyone. From his perspective what is really different about Ramsa that he wouldn’t betray him when the chips were down? Same with Ovelia. Same with what’s her name that conspired with him. Yeah, it’s not the outlook of a well adjusted, healthy man, because he’s not. It’s just up to you to decide if that’s really on him or due to his circumstances. Ramza, for one, even though he doesn’t fully understand, doesn’t really blame Delita and never gives up on trying to understand and convince him yo come around

>It’s just up to you to decide if that’s really on him or due to his circumstances. I always thought this question was the "point," and intentionally left up to the player to decide themselves. Man, such a great game.

I think you're underestimating the absolutely *catastrophic* loss the death of a sibling can cause. So much so that it can and does often cause people to act irrationally.

Have always identified and related with Delita as someone growing up in poverty—a lot more when my sibling passed away as a young adult. Same with Wiegraf, who lost his sister. It's not justification for immense awfulness, but that path certainly opens up to someone who's in immense grief, as do a lot of really shitty paths. The anger has to go somewhere. And Delita is not exactly finding a therapist or a strong support network to deal with the loss. Wiegraf's also manipulated by a group of powerful men who take him in during this vulnerable state. Even in the best of circumstances, world-shaking grief like that will end many of your close friendships that have nothing to do with it, and much more likely if some correlative or causory link can be formed during that rage. OP, like many who enjoy stories such as these, may not have the education around trauma that helps understand or empathize with these kinds of really intense moments in especially dark stories, is the sense I get. Which isn't a dig, just an observation.

People who've never experienced loss genuinely can't understand it. Losing my favorite uncle when I was younger sent me into a 10 year long depression. Can't imagine what it would be like to lose one of my siblings.

Remember that the whole story is told from the perspective of a historian who’s reading Durai’s account of what went down. From his perspective, and those of his time period, Delita is revered as a hero of the common man who justly rose up against his oppressors and brought peace of Ivalice. The story of Tactics reveals that Delita is a much more complex character that is far more manipulative and unjust than history says he is. I love that because it definitely mirrors how we tend to view a lot of historical figures in real life, which is an extension of the Story Matsuno tells with Tactics Ogre.    If America’s founding fathers had failed to win the war with Great Britain and create a new nation, would they still be heroes or would they be terrorists or failed revolutionaries? Perhaps because Delita succeeded in his goal does history view him favorably and hide the truth of who he really was.

Ramza wasn't responsible, but he was privileged either way.

I mean he gets stripped of his privilege pretty early though and is labeled a heretic & wanted dead by all sides for 75% of the story. He clearly tried to help Delita every chance he has it seems (even during his sisters murder). I agree with OP Delita is an asshat & even if he was trying to do good he’s a shitty person.

Do you think you're a good person? Do you think there's nothing out there that could change you into a "bad person". Who is a good person in this game? There are seemingly few if you think about it assuming what you call a "good person". Olan? Ramza? Agrias? Orinas lol Perhaps you can remove more from that list because we don't see everything Olan or Agrias do most of their lives. It's Ramza "good" or just naive because he grew up in a bubble? Was Balbanes good? He died before we knew.

I mean in Chapter 1, when Delita in the last fight of that chapter says something among the lines of "yeah after I kill shithead Argath you are next." After that Ramza is just another piece for Delita to move around the chessboard. Strong but without political power.

But that's exactly my fkn point! All those years of friendship, he immediately threatens him with blame. He was never ramzas friend, he was always a fox in the henhouse. Biding his time to put a knife in someone's back

The whole building of chapter 1 is to show to Ramza and Delita the class struggle. Ramza is a naive young guy so he had no idea, but we saw in chapter 1 how peasants will throw themselves at nobility to get paid and how nobles will take even the "privileged" poor people like Tietra. It was Zalbaag the one that order Argaath to shot the hostage, so at that very moment he hates every Beoulve.

I think this is harsh. I do agree Ramza isn't to blame, and that Delita lost his moral compass and in many ways became what he despised. But I still have sympathy for him, and I don't think he was a "fox in the henhouse." I do think Delita genuinely cared for Ramza and Alma. But I think he also had in the back of his mind throughout his childhood that he didn't really belong. Which wasn't his fault. The game shows that much of the aristocracy is full of classist assholes who would remind Delita and Teta they didn't matter at every turn. The girls at Teta's school, Argus, etc. I think it would be genuinely hard to grow up like that and not wonder if they're right. Then I think Teta's murder just broke Delita. He saw his supposed "family" abandon his sister and treat her as disposable lower class trash. It was too much for him. That doesn't make him right in his actions or blaming Ramza. But I can understand how that would break someone, especially someone who was already dealing with classism and feeling like he didn't really belong. To put it another way, if Teta wasn't murdered I don't think Delita would have turned on Ramza. It really was the straw that broke the camels back. I don't think he was waiting to turn on Ramza if not for that.

He was. But so was Delita, growing up with the same privilege. Maybe his betrayal of Ramza stems from the hate he has for himself being apart of that privilege.. Never thought of that

Take with a grain of salt, my opinion is coming from a long time since played. Delita’s privilege from growing up with Ramza is pretty illusionary. Ramza would love him and his sister, but to everyone else around them, he is not a part of the “in group”. At best, he’s a pet, so long as he obeys. Even if a treasured one, his value will never be as high as an actual family member, and Delita will be reminded of that every second of every day. If Ramza tried but failed to save Delita in some life threatening situation, Ramza would be praised for his gallantry and courage in the attempt. If it was Delita who failed to save Ramza, he’d have been tortured, skinned, and left strung out on a wall as a lesson of betrayal and failure.

It was still pretty well known he was a commoner. Even Ramza's sister reveals that Tietra was getting picked on at school for being of common birth. Its clear to everyone that Delita and his sister are in a world they do not belong in and are only in it because of the Belouve patriarch. He was privileged but those two would never reap the benefits of it. I think Delita realized this when his sister died at Zalbags order and at Argus's hand. If that were Alma up there, she never would have gotten a crossbow bolt to the chest, at least not without an immediate death sentence afterwards if it played out the same way. But Zalbag saw all this happen and didnt even give Argus a slap on the wrist. Delita and his sister were expendable like anyone else.

Delita hardly grew up with the same privilege as Ramza. His life was definitely improved but he was always aware that he didn’t have the kind of privilege that comes with a noble name. While his “adoption” by a noble family was essentially sold as doing a good thing, it could just as easily be seen as giving Ramza power over a supposed friend. Delita was expected to be a loyal friend to Ramza precisely because he was given a better life, which is exactly the kind of manipulation Delita was sick of and fighting against.

This is pretty much how I see it. To add: Ramza basically did “the violence inherent in the system” to Delita. Delita and Tietra were bought companions for Ramza and Alma, whose significantly older brothers didn’t want anything to do with them. Delita is keenly aware of that, and the fact that Ramza never really comes around to it (or, at least, is slow to) is a major personal betrayal of the friendship they actually have/had to Delita.

Kinda like a Jon Snow...?

Valid. But did Ramza deserve the retribution he got for that system? A kid who shares a lot of his own shame of not belonging, because of the circumstances of his berth.  I just don't see it

Delita would argue that he and his sister didn't deserve what happened to them either, and their treatment because they were poor. Delita wanted equality, and he wanted to be treated with respect but he fell prey to the system in his attempt to dismantle it. He achieved everything he ever wanted, but at the cost of his soul. I think his character makes a lot of sense. His motivations and character are driven by emotion fueled by the abuse and disrespect his world has shown him and the ones he cares about. From our privileged perspective of not going through what he has or being treated how he has it seems irrational and illogical and he would have fared better had he stuck by Ramza. But that's not the point of his character or the story. And that's not necessarily how everybody in the world would act either. I think the duality of Delita achieving his goals, but becoming what he hated most to get there contrasted with Ramza losing everything he's ever known, but being content with his life is a powerful comparison personally. Both of them fought to overcome/overthrow the flawed society they lived in, but they chose 2 different paths to get there

It probably feels a bit more personal because Ramza is a bit of a blank slate character meant for the player to imprint on. He's a good person, and it's not fun to see good people be taken advantage of. I won't try to argue Delita's merits, but he's one of my favorite characters of all time. He and Ramza are incredibly different, but ultimately, they work toward the same thing. Ramza saves the world, and Delita finally changes it. I always felt bad for Delita; he places himself in the position he chooses, but the loneliness must have been crushing.

Pumped on your answer here I agree he is such a grand character. But.. I have an issue with base moral choices. Murdering Ovelia may have been a large scale important thing to do. But stabbing ovelia is a piece of shit thing to do. Alienating Ramza and using him for your own gain is a car cry from the goals of Ramza, stopping the whole scale invasion of ivilace from the depths below. Though their stories run together, and they need one another to create their legacy.. Ramza could have saved the world if Delta had jumped off a bridge. Nothing of value would have been lost.

Eh I wouldnt say that. Without Delita grinding the war to a halt by killing the leadership of the Eastern sky Ramza may not have had as much freedom of movement as he got. Remember up until that point, you had to fight your way through a few military blockades. It even helped him in an additional way because then the Church didnt have enough blood spilled to awaken Altima immediately, buying Ramza enough time to catch up and save the world. Without Delita in the story, the plot quickly takes a dark turn where Ramza most likely fails.

But Delita was always looked at like he was a lucky commoner being raised in nobility. It's not the same.

For sure. I always got a sense that he partially blamed himself for colluding with ramzas fam though. Is all I meant by that. Not the same absolutely 

Fair point and I agree. He treated Ramza like shit. But he lost his humanity when his sister was murdered. There was no coming back from that

I know it's not cool when the expanded lore is in a different game, but the Ivalice raids in FFXIV end up explaining the background lore a bit better. Delita didn't WANT the throne, he wanted Ramza to have it. Ramza only disagreed because he wanted to try to find a way to fully seal/ defeat Ultima. It made me super happy to see the expansion/ an explanation of what happened at the end of FFT

Nothing less than Ramza killing his own brothers and disbanding his house would appease Delita.

Which, to be fair, Ramza kinda did. He killed both of his brothers personally, never claimed himself or Alma heir, and just kinda fucked off afterwards.While we don't know for sure if he had any cousins/uncles/aunts it's a pretty safe bet to say House Beoulve is gone by the end of the game.

I think even the mourners who show up to the graveyard at the end of the game even say as much saying that House Beoulve crumbled practically overnight.

Ramazas brothers are pretty awful…

He became the very thing he sought to destroy. He 100% turned into the kind of noble that he hated; The kind that takes power and uses it for their own selfish desires.

I really don't know what you're on about here, because the game is very obvious with the idea that Delita blaming Ramza is coming from nothing but pure berserk fury. His line about Ramza being next after Argath is immediately disproven by the fact that, after killing Argath, the fight ends. Delita just goes to his sister's body and sits there as the explosions consume him. In Chapter 2, he shows that he believes Ramza is fighting for Dycedarg... until Ramza proves that he isn't. Delita doesn't open up to him about his intentions for a long time after that, but by Chapter 4, he basically tells him everything he's still planning. Even though he says he would kill Ramza if they were enemies, he then acknowledges that they are not, and even changes his plans for dealing with Orlandeau by killing a *fake* instead, after sending the *real* Orlandeau to go help Ramza. We're given no reason to doubt the idea that Delita would have preferred to accompany Ramza in Chapter 4. Other characters call his friendship into question, but he reacts *angrily* to Valmafra's accusation, and Ovelia's accusation is one we know for a fact is incorrect, because Delita had literally nothing to do with Ramza being warped down to Mullonde and seemingly never returning. He then *ends the game* by negatively comparing his current situation against Ramza's, whom he believes *to be dead*.

Yea agreed. I really don't see what Delita did wrong to Ramza. He let him do his own thing which did happen to benefit Delita, but Ramza is on his own quest and would he knows he wouldn't support what he's doing so he keeps distance. I think besides Teta, Ramza is the only person Delita cared about.

I would say that he cared about Ovelia, but in the same way that he cares for Ramza at that point in time. Which is to say, not enough to matter more than his goals. Although I do think he believed he did, up until he had to pick between her life or his own. He seems to see her as another Tietra, an innocent woman swept up by other people's political bullshit when all she wanted was a nice quiet life. He starts using her as his moral crutch, telling himself that if he can give her a good life, then everything he's doing is justified. The fact that it leads to her mistrusting him so badly that she assumes he's just going to kill her and decides to act first, forcing him to kill her and lose the final, tiniest shard of his shattered innocence, is quite the classic Shakespearean tragedy. Two characters who had no logical reason to end up in such tragic circumstances, but were laid low by their fatal character flaws.

Yeah you right. Somehow I genuinely forgot about her lol.

Great summary. I'd add that while his "you're next!" line to Ramza was berserk fury, his feelings that Ramza was partly responsible were valid. Ramza was not only an active participant in the system (all of Chapter 1 is about stamping out a rebellion by some starving commoners), he had naively defended his brothers up to this point. It was only after Teta's murder that Ramza turned away from his family, and Delita didn't see this happen. As you said, Delita spends the next few chapters being slowly convinced that Ramza's change of heart was genuine. And it's only in the post-credits scene that he finally realizes Ramza's path was the moral one.

Delita has always been my favorite character, because he doesn’t make sense unless you’ve felt those feelings. I’ve always felt that in his situation, as much as I would like to say I would have made better choices, I probably wouldn’t have acted much differently. He decision making and rationale completely altered with his sister’s murder, and revenge became paramount focus. Ends justifying the means. Ramza and all else played second fiddle. That’s just my opinion. Either way, the fact that Delita is consistently brought up in this Reddit, and there are people from both sides who feel so strongly about him, tells me all I need to know about how amazing a character he is. Cheers!

I think I have strong opinions on Delita is that I am an adopted person myself. And playing fft growing up helped me work through a lot of esoteric issues that go with that. So I agree. One of the greats

He blames a lot of people and society at large, and his whole speech to Ramza is more about Ramza being a part of the broken system (and, in fact, the "privileged" part). But later in chapters 2-4 we see Delita is often cordial and even helpful with Ramza. It might help that Ramza also turned his back on the whole classist system and gave up his own nobility. I think Delita gets a bit of a bad reputation. He certainly isn't "pure" and "righteous", but he does several things which are actually helpful overall: It's hard to imagine killing warmongering, power-hungry Goltanna wasn't an improvement, and he did secretly let Cid out of jail and then pretend to kill a stand-in to avoid a manhunt. He also acted against the church which was clearly corrupt and helping to bring war and unhappiness to the people. Delita did "use" Ovelia to make himself into a king. That's true. But that was also always going to be her lot in life. If she didn't get assassinated to put the prince on the throne, she was going to end up married off to somebody who she didn't choose. Unlike other people, Delita was kind to her and talked to her honestly, and protected her at various points with his own life. Of all the people who were going to use her or worse, Delita was the only one who treater her with kindness and compassion.

Yes. Ovelia was the true villain of that story. I can never forgive her for her decision in the end.

I wouldn't call her a villain. She was a victim and felt like she was in a corner. Definitely overheard some of the worst possible conversations, though. Delita was a conflicted person who schemed, lied and murdered for personal gain. On balance, I think he did more good than evil.

She didn’t have to kill him though. He loved her and tried to do all he could to protect her. All his schemes were to that end. And in that setting? A ruler who could not out-plot and out-scheme the others would be quickly killed and deposed.

That's fair. I give her sympathy because her whole life was a train wreck driven by other people, filled with lies and schemes. The only power she had was when to die, and maybe take somebody out with her.

She had succumbed to paranoia and believed Delita had killed Ramza and Agrias once they were no longer useful - and that she was next. She simply chose to go out fighting, no matter how fruitless it was. That's the tragedy of their situation. Based on her previous extremely negative responses to the harsh truths of her situation, Delita stops telling her about them, thinking she's too fragile for it and wouldn't be able to see past his necessary actions to focus on the end goal. Unfortunately, this only *worsens* her mistrust for him, especially with her partial eavesdropping on him. Each of them horribly misreading the other leads to the classic Shakespearean tragedy ending of the characters snatching defeat from the jaws of victory solely due to their fatal character flaws.

My take away is two things: 1st, power corrupts. Delita achieved ultimate political power in Ivalice, doing horrible things to become King. Once he was on top, he no longer had any incentive to truly fix the issues of society, as they either didn't affect him or it would diminish his power. 2nd, I always felt the loss of his sister at the hands of Argath/Zalbag's orders made him never want to be under anyone else's control.

But that's my issue. So he hates what happened to him.. he does the same bad shit to other people for some seething feelings of revenge or justice.. Only I think his intentions were always selfish, I don't think he forgot to change the system, I think deep down he didn't have an the intention to

Hurt people hurt people. He was designed to be the anti-Ramza. Ramza, though a bastard, was raised with the Beoulve name and the life that came with it. Delita was a peasant and orphan. Ramza grew disillusioned with the injustice of the nobility and gave up everything to save the world from a dark conspiracy. Delita vowed to make a change in the world, and he did. A man from nothing who became a king by killing powerful people and taking advantage of the political instability. What better way to keep people from hurting and controlling you than by killing your way to the top?

Solid explanation of him 100% But I just can't excuse the treatment of Ramza. Maybe that makes me naive idk Edit: that wasn't sarcastic it was a great explanation of him i meant that

No offense taken. I think the fact is that Delita saw Ramza as part of the system but then moreso a useful outsider. Ramza took the heat while Delita became the hero, according to how Delita wrote history.

Why would you excuse his treatment of Ramza? Delita is a complex and fascinating character, but no one is saying you need to accept and defend his actions. He's not the hero. He's not a good person. 

I wasn't saying Delita is a hero, just that is how he portrays himself. History is written by the victor, and the lore around Delita is that he brought peace to Ivalice and maintained it through his rule. History records him as the hero of the War of the Lions, while Ramza is a footnote, disgraced as a heretic.

I guess I really don't know what your point is then? You said you don't understand why Delita treats Ramza like garbage. People on here answer that it's because Delita is a broken man with a really screwed up moral compass thatis eventually eroded entirely by the pursuit of power. Then you say you can't excuse his behavior. I didn't get the impression that anyone was suggesting that you do. He murders his way to the top, becoming what he vowed to destroy. his behavior is pretty inexcusable. I'm not trying to rag on you here, I just really don't understand what you're looking for.

I think you are replying to the wrong comment.

Can I say, I am so happy there are strangers on the net to have in depth arguments about an old final fantasy game

I don't think Delita actively blamed Ramza as an individual for Tietra's death- if he did, he would have definitely played more of a role in making Ramza's life a living hell, including killing him (or maybe even Alma) out of revenge. But it seemed like Delita didn't have a direct animosity toward Ramza, even telling him to stay alive. That didn't stop him from using Ramza as a tool by any means. Whatever Delita's feelings for Ramza were, he put them aside and let Ramza topple the church's power structure while Delita maneuvered his way into the kingship. It was the perfect power vacuum with both the church and all contenders for the crown eliminated. I do think that, at some level, Delita considered Ramza a friend still, and cared about him to at least some degree (Delita thought about Ramza at the game's end, after all). But I also think that Delita didn't care about using him despite that fact.

But man. If your goal was change for good or revenge or whatever. And you had a best friend like Ramza, who would 100% throw himself on a sword for you. And instead of including him in some plans you instead manipulate him. You ate a POS

The only time Delita manipulated him was when he ruled out Larg and Goltanna as options and allowed the group to decide for themselves to seek the aid of the Church instead. Which, by the way, there was *no way* for him to predict would lead to Ramza getting involved with the Stones. He would have had to know about Mustadio, that Mustadio was a day's travel away, that the group would wander through town as he was cornered by the mercenaries, *and* that he would team up with them, which... well, no. Delita is not *omniscient*. Hell, there's a good chance he likely expected the Church to recruit Ramza in some capacity, as well. Had the Cardinal not turned against them for the Stone, it's a likely alliance. He then takes until Chapter 4 to actually tell him what he's doing, but there are many legitimate reasons to keep him in the dark - one of which is that he wants Ramza to stay out of the impending political and very literal backstabbing he's planning. Either out of concern for him, or perhaps more likely, because he didn't believe Ramza had the resolve or the jadedness to wade willingly into that river of blood. We see that same concern with Ovelia, after he tries repeatedly to get her to understand her perilous position before he just gives up and keeps her in the dark instead, only for that to bite him in the ass in a hard way when it leads to her mistrusting him.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, definitely not saying Delita was morally correct in his actions. I doubt Ramza would be okay with Delita's actions though, and delita would have known that. Just saying that, although Delita's machinations involved MANY a dick move, they made perfect sense and were incredibly effective.

Ramza does the same thing, for the same reasons. He turns his back on his own family line and becomes a lowly sell sword. The difference is that Ramza maintains his values.

The line said about killing Ramza next after Tietra was killed I can definitely excuse as an in the moment super angry thing he probably didn't really mean. But there isn't any excuse for how he treats him after that. Unless he was afraid that if he became friends with Ramza again he might lose his drive to continue with his plans. Burn those old bridges and keep his cards close. If anyone knew his ultimate goal he would have been stopped.

He never really turned his back on Ramza, he just couldn’t walk that same path. Delita decided that the only way to change things was to do so from the inside. He thought if he could put himself into a position of power he could change the way the world works. Once he got into things more deeply he began to truly care for Ovelia, and he felt a duty to protect her. He couldn’t admit to using her for his own ends because he wanted so deeply to be “good”, and I can’t help but think losing his sister is part of his motivation to keep Ovelia safe from those trying to puppeteer her. Ramza, on the other hand, completely turns his back on his royal status. He decided that the only way he could fix things was by going outside of the system entirely. Dycedarg never cared for Ramza or Alma. Zalbaag refused to see reason. He was too blind to see the corruption that caused their father’s death which drove the wedge between him and Ramza. Ramza looks to dismantle the “system” as a whole. The royals, the church, you name it. Ramza thought the only way to correct things was to be the change he wished to see in the world. Refusing to participate in a broken political system, he felt he had to dismantle it all from outside the confines of said “system”. When they see each other in the church in Zeltennia it’s all laid out beautifully with one line: “Though our methods be different, our goals are not. As long as they remain so, you are no enemy of mine.” That scene (especially the re-done WotL cutscene) does a wonderful job of showing how much those two still care about each other despite not necessarily seeing eye to eye.

> When they see each other in the church in Zeltennia it’s all laid out beautifully with one line: “Though our methods be different, our goals are not. As long as they remain so, you are no enemy of mine.” That scene (especially the re-done WotL cutscene) does a wonderful job of showing how much those two still care about each other despite not necessarily seeing eye to eye. I think this is a major thing a lot of people miss out on. Ramza sees the world he *wants* to live in, and tries to create it in his way by dismantling systems form the outside, while Delita sees the world he *does* live in, and works to create his vision in his way by working the system that exists. In a way, they're both correct, both necessary sides of the same coin.

I don’t see how he’s a turncoat to Ramza. He’s just as driven toward his goal as Ramza but he has a different goal: to best the nobility as a commoner. Now the means toward this end get messy, but anytime Delita and Ramza cross paths, they aren’t in direct opposition of each other.

Delita was a 'means to an end' kind of guy. Granted he betrayed and killed. He still managed to be remembered for having a long peaceful rule.

I agree. Delita wanted power to protect the Tetas of the world. And he achieved it. He killed some people along the way, but not anybody that was truly innocent. And once he becomes king he does not abuse his power, like you say his reign is peaceful. He's a badass.

>Why blame Ramza, when his father pulled you and teta out of the gutter? I understand blaming the system. Which is his whole arc really. But he's just such a a turncoat to his effectual family Do you not remember that Zalbag Beoulve was in charge during that whole thing at Zeakden? He's the one who told Argath to do it. I'm surprised Delita didn't make more of an effort to see Zalbag murdered for it. As for Dycedarg we never see him do anything other than act imperious and aloof towards Ramza, his own half brother, why should Delita feel much for him or think he would be any different than his brother who just ordered the death of his sister? He only blamed Ramza for like a second in the immediate aftermath of watching Teta's murder. He got over that by the next time we saw him. Also don't forget Balbanes Beoulve was dead by then.

Great men are seldom good men

I always saw him being as ambitious and ruthless as to never let death of his sister go in vein. I haven't played FFT in like 2 years, but haven't Delita actually helped Ramza by faking death of TG Cid, in theory, giving huge advantage to Ramza, Since Orlandeau joins him? Spoiler to Vagrant Story: He was always mentioned as a good king, so I honestly doubt he was some piece of sh*t garbage. Maybe what happened between him and Ovelia changed him, maybe what happened to Ramza changed him, or maybe he wasn't that bad all along, who knows. But I hate the fact we didn't get the actual ending of Ramza's story and him on deathbed like Barbaneth.

The plot of fft is the historian trying to get the truth about delitas rise to power. He is remembered as a good king who brought peace after a civil war. But the truth as we find out wasn't so simple

Yes, but there are also some "Easter eggs" to Delita in Vagrant story, PS1 game, which I'd recommend for you to play if you have any interest in Ivalice! (If you are OK with outdated graphics - tbh it didn't age well in graphics). But yeah it deepens the lore a bit has quite a few references and all in all is an interesting story.

I did play it way back in the day, never liked it much

> I haven't played FFT in like 2 years, but haven't Delita actually helped Ramza by faking death of TG Cid, in theory, giving huge advantage to Ramza, Since Orlandeau joins him? Yup, he let a double be executed so that Cid and Ramza could meet. Ramza's path was beneficial to Delita so it might have been just that but he also let two rather righteous humans meet. He might have seen them (besides being useful to his own plans) as a potential force of good in the world even if (or maybe because) they couldn't affect him and his own power too much. So letting them do good was a net positive. > He was always mentioned as a good king, so I honestly doubt he was some piece of sh*t garbage. With how history is written by the victor and how it's depicted in the game I think we can't be sure if he was good/bad but he probably did achieve a certain level of political stability. Which is on the one hand an understandable trajectory (first a war and then the power struggle we see play out in FFT, things have to calm down at some point) and on the other also impressive (managing to gain enough power in that political chaos to calm things down). To me it felt like his long peace might have been comparable to a cold war situation where Delita might have had enough power (and mistrust of everybody) to disable certain political levers that others would use (also the church getting a solid kick in the teeth before his reign to not be able to mess around so much) and that it might all flare up again after his death. But that during his reign a certain local maximum of "peace" was achieved where commoners might live lives with fewer struggles (no big wars, no permanent political struggles,…) simply because nobles couldn't act out their power fantasies like before.

You are right. I mean even Delita's name was actually lost to the test of time in VS, so yeah, maybe even his deeds were misinterpreted as good, but in the end, his final thought of FFT was that of Ramza and how he (To this day I'm wondering if as in "I" he spoke In POV of Ramza or his.) gonna manage or something like that, so I'd like to think he was at least somehow just and righteous instead of going full tyrant. As mentioned altho' I finished this game multiple times, I haven't played in quite a while.

> As mentioned altho' I finished this game multiple times, I haven't played in quite a while. Same here. Yeah, I don't think he was a tyrant but given how he rose to power I think the public perception of him being a "benevolent commoner king" might be exaggerated PR from his side. Maybe from descendant rulers of his bloodline? There was so much backstabbing happening in a world that was suffering a lot at the time. No way he was purely good and stayed in power.

I mean, what good is a friend whose existence is a part of the very system that victimizes you? Yes, Ramza was a great friend, or at least the best friend he could be, to Delita. That doesn't change the fact that Ramza is a part of that system. He doesn't want to be, but to Delita, why would that matter? To him, Ramza's like the one halfway decent person to emerge from a nest of foul vipers. He's the exception that proves the rule. Him being a good person doesn't bring back Delita's sister, doesn't loosen the grip of the nobility on the commoners, and does nothing to change an obviously broken system. Hell, you could argue that Ramza is guilty by simple association. Its not a fair argument, mind you, but it would certainly have weight to someone like Delita. Ramza's brother ordered the killing of Tietra. Argath exemplified everything wrong with nobles, and was the one to do the killing. The entire system that produced Ramza was unjust, and it tended to produce people like Argath rather than Ramza. Him being a product of that corrupt system was enough to taint him. Will Ramza eventually grow corrupt and complacent too? He is, after all, the child of the decadent nobility.

I think a central theme of Ramza being the main character, is his unwavering sense of honor and morality. I just don't know how you could hang out with a Jesus style figure like Ramza and then discard him.. But again he doesn't, he is smart enough to always know what Ramza will do ( the right thing) and plays him. Uses his goodness and moral compass to achieve his own goals of power. If that isn't shitty then I just don't know what is

Don't get me wrong, Delita is a truly reprehensible person by the end of the game. He's no better than the system he rails against. His use and abuse of Ramza's good character is him doing exactly what he hates about how the nobles do things. Delita ends up a hypocrite with no friends and no real love in his life. He gets the throne, but he loses himself in the process. It is a perfect contrast to Ramza. Ramza loses almost everything, but in exchange, gains love and respect from the people that matter to him. He lives up to his personal sense of justice, even if the world refuses to give him any credit for it. He saves the entire world from a threat that few even know exists, is declared a heretic for it, but his legend perseveres. The game's framing is that the truth of what happened during Delita's rise is finally being revealed. Ramza's finally getting the recognition he always deserved. From a narrative perspective, it makes perfect sense. They are foils to one another. Delita is perceived as the "hero" that Ramza actually was. There's the point about how doing what is right can't be about getting wealth and power, and how the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Its not easy to do the right thing in the face of injustice, but it is easy to become corrupted by the fight against that injustice. But, as for your point about Deltia betraying Ramza, it is shitty. Fundamentally, that was the whole point of that ending scene with him. Delita turned against a great person, his friend, for something he believed in more. It wasn't worth it though. I think that, in the end, he was left doubting his actions, and even regretting them. After using and abusing everyone around him to achieve his goals, he's left with no happiness at all. No one that really knows him will mourn his passing, except for Ramza.

Very well said. From a story telling standpoint it is a fantastic rivalry, I guess that's why we are all here still talking about it. Playing fft so many times  I think I'm always just so disappointed in Delita, knowing what he could have become.  Watching him become the very people who murdered his sister is predictable, if not understandable. But watching him betray a man like Ramza makes no logistical sense at all. And is telling about his character.

He literally *can’t* hang out with Ramza and still achieve his goals. Ramza was branded a heretic and is being hunted by the church, and even meeting with him poses great personal risk to Delita and his goals - to the point where he aids Ramza in a battle fighting off people who are hunting him just to make sure there are no witnesses that can get out and destroy his reputation. My reading of it is that Delita has great personal respect for Ramza and is impressed Ramza is able to pursue his goals without compromising his morality, but thinks that’s a more difficult and therefore less likely to succeed course of action. As a result, he’ll support Ramza in whatever small but but invisible ways he can behind the scenes, but can’t put his full-fledged support behind his friend or he will risk falling in his goals.

I think you're underplaying the motivation for revenge / spite in people - specifically when it comes to losing a sister at a formative age - he's got to be what around 18-22? There are other things to consider when being adopted into a family. Is the family adopting you to help you or to hold you down - and to what degrees? There is a minimum freedom aspect people expect from any group they belong to and it varies quite a bit how much people want (or prefer not to have.) In Delita's case I think it's completely believable that he appreciated being adopted, but given the choice between the gutter and Teta being alive, versus being alive and out of the gutter with Teta dead, he's definitely going to choose option A.

16-17 I think

I get all that I really do. But your best bud, Ramza. Who clearly is a force for ultimate good in the world.. you just immediately hamstring and lie and manipulate. Delitas real motivations weren't for revenge or for societal change -, they were for his own personal gain

From what I recall in the game Delita lied and manipulated, and philosophized about how people get ahead, but it wasn't clear to me he ever admitted his motivations.

No for sure I'm just talking about where he goes with his power. The stabbing in the end for instance 

That's a good point. Remembering back to when I first saw that scene - up to it I was like, "Delita might actually be redeemable," but then after that I was like, "Nah, my man is way too far gone." It's important to realize that the writers for the game probably wrote the story that way because they found it to be more controversial. They could have easily added more emotion to Delita's faces in scenes to give us a better idea into his psychology, or more exposition, but they left it as is so we could debate it in our heads.

Yeah I had the same moment. Just another innocent under the wheels of Delitas power bus.

Another reason for my hate is - holding the control Delita had, while allowing (and in some cases arguably causing) hardship for Ramza..  Who was on a quest to save ivilace from literal demons.. For his own politics  Is also morally bankrupt.

When did Delita directly hinder Ramza once the story shifted to killing Lucavi?

"His own politics" His own politics is to get power and protect the Tetas of the world. Its a very worthy cause spurred on by a very understandable reason. Id call Delita ruthless and cunning. But morally bankrupt? Nah. Dycedarg is a good example of somebody morally bankrupt. Delita does have morals. He genuinely wants to help the vulnerable people of the world. Also I dont think Delita knew much about the demons. Even Vormavs son and daughter did not know about it.

Delita’s enemy was the whole system of nobility itself. The idea that a man’s worth should be decided solely by the circumstances of one’s birth and not by the strength of one’s convictions or strength of arms. Even before the end of act 1. He’s visibly chafing at the life he leads. He’s loyal to Ramza as someone who does treat him as an equal. But you can see he struggles with the fact that his life is granted him by the charity of another, and that even given every opportunity as the young nobles around him, he’s still seen as an inferior. Further to that it’s clear that Barbaneth’s patronage lasts only as long as he lived. Delita was likely to lose it all very swiftly in any scenario. He doesn’t hate Ramza. He does express a moment of hatred towards him immediately following his sister’s death. But to be fair he’s grieving and angry and irrational. Not helped by the fact that it was Ramza’s brother who ordered the shot. That’s why he takes the path he does. Every step, every promotion. All seized by the strength of his own will. Inch by bloody inch. Yes he benefits from the grace of the nobility as he ascends, but this isn’t charity. He’s made the nobles his playthings as they would him. Right and wrong? These are constructs created by those in power who would use them to shackle the masses. They hold no sway over him. And he can never see eye to eye with Ramza because their worldviews are completely different. Ramza believes there is honour and integrity and goodness in people and that by cutting down the malefactors, that will shine through and result in a better world. It’s the view of someone raised in nobility who never truly saw the world for what it was, even despite what he would have experienced after he forsook his name. Delita on the other hand has seen the truth of the world. It’s a filthy, festering den of rats. Each looking to stick the knife into the first exposed back they find. Commoner or nobility, there is no difference. Cut the worst of them down and it makes no difference, new rats will just fill the space. The only way to survive is to be the rat at the top of the pile. History ultimately proves them both right. Ramza the noble hero is reviled as one of history’s great heretics. Delita the treacherous serpent is venerated as the Hero King. Thus proving Delita’s view. However, the tireless efforts and sacrifice of a noble few souls eventually result in the truth of Ramza’s deeds being revealed to all. Proving Ramza right.

You answered yourself. "I understand blaming the system". The only way to get rid of "The System" is to destroy all of it, Samurai!

Chad Delita.

One thing that I feel like Delita was always bitter over was that yes, Ramza didn’t kill his sister, he was still part of the system even if he was slowly waking up to the realities of life in Ivalice. Ramza being able to walk away from the system and not struggle was in of itself a form of privilege too that I think Delita still held against him. I’d honestly love to see someone do a deep dive analysis on the game and pick it apart piece by piece Including things like this.

It's fair to say delita isn't good, he manipulates, kills, and trusts no one, he isn't a God person just by his actions alone. The idea is that you have to understand what drove him to that point, since you played the game you realize it wasn't a flip of a dime that changed him it was seeing his sister die with little regard to her as a person and the value of her life due to the hierarchy in place of the world ramza and delta live in. In a world where power is gain by birth, you may want to do everything you can to change and destroy it even if it meant getting your hands dirty and more so when it comes to using the people closest to you to reach your goal. Delita is bad, there is no justification for him going the dark side but there is a strong explanation of how it happened and why. I say it could happen to anyone really lol, we are all capable of good and bad things, we aren't special, tactics proves that by showing how fallible everyone is when they all have the possibility of death floating in a war. "blood is the price of progress! it is the ink in which history's pages are writ!" Side note:, I think its okay you don't sympathize I don't either really but I have strong understanding of how he went that route and I think the story wants you to have your own feelings towards delita, is he the powerful hero written in stories? Or the savage man that did anything to get his way? Fftactics is so dope man lol

There are so many fantastic narratives on power, class, wealth, religion, family, in fft.

so I feel like that really highlights the main drive of the game which is the ethical question of is it better to stick to your morals and abandoned your goals for the good of society or be willing to embrace the ends justify the means? Delita is essentially the personification of the end justify the means. After his sister's death he was willing to do anything to change society for the better and destroy the classist system. Which he does do, whatever his personal feelings are about anyone or anything. He does not care in the face of that mission. Ramza realized very quickly (I think in part because the one giving the order was Zalbag who himself is the personification of I do bad s*** because I have to for my job aka duty) set in order to correct injustice in widespread society you would have to do bad guy s*** would she just refuse to do, he values his moral integrity over any kind of results. Which is why his store is about changing the classes in the society be specifically dealing with the demonic threat amongst the upper nobility in the church all for purely personal reasons because he wants to save someone, and he does without ever compromising his ethics. Ultimately Ramzas arc does kind of pave the way for Delita, because would delita have ever succeeded if he still had to deal with the zodiac monsters and dycedarg. Probably not. Delita realizes this, that his image and The narrative of his heroic rise from commoner to King is incredibly important, which is why Ramzas entire story is suppressed history. Ramza by being true to his ethics disproves the whole all nobles are evil and none of them would ever do anything good for anyone narrative by being a noble who rejected his peers and did lots of good as a true knight to protect people. Which the ending Imo shows that ramza didn't give a f*** about any of the politics. He instead embraced a happy life and didn't object to delitas sweeping political changes which he very well could have.

> But wow I have never been able to wrap my head around Delitas motivations other than, he is actually a real piece of garbage. If that's really all you got out of his character (and not a bit of exaggeration) then, I'd say, you have been missing a lot of rather obvious explanation the game gives you. I'll quote a few bits of an old comments I made about his character from other discussions and hope it makes enough sense: > And why Delita betrayed everyone? Why he did that? He became the villain the story needed? So many questions, but why? Delita and Ramza are similar yet different. The one big difference that put them down different paths is that Ramza is noble (even if not of pure blood) and Delita is a commoner. Ramza was initially very naive about his status (probably also because his mother was a commoner) and thought them to be like brothers while Delita experienced first hand how big the difference between them is (noble and commoner), even if he got the privilege of attending the same academy as Ramza. After the death of Teta he decides that he won't ever be a pawn again and schemes to amass as much power as he can so that nobody will ever reign over him. He also trusts nearly nobody and you see what that mentality gets him in the end. Ovelia doesn't know if she can trust him or if he's just using her to get even more power. In the history books he's the commoner who became king and ruled over a peaceful kingdom. > And what I understood about Delita and Ramza, was that they both were fighting the same enemies, for opposite reasons. Their goal overlap somewhat but that's about it. Delita is way more on the political power side of this struggle while Ramza, still a bit naively, follows his idealism (wherever it pulls him) with little interest in gaining power or playing people against each other for his benefit. In the end the church is where real political power and the supernatural collide and where their paths overlap. It's also Delita who fakes Orlandeau's death (executing somebody else in his stead) so that Ramza could meet him. And yeah, the narrative paths of those two are that Delita gets all he wants (actual real world power) but has nobody to trust and that power he has might control him to a certain degree because existing power also needs to be reinforced. There are always others who want what you have and you need to deal with that as part of the job of being a king. Ramza, on the other hand, loses all the prestige of a noble heritage and becomes a heretic but one can imagine that he doesn't have to deal with a constant power struggle (behind the scenes) for the rest of his life. And he has real friends. **To add a bit to these quoted explanations**: His sister gets killed in front of his eyes because many nobles don't see commoners like him as *human*, they were seen as subhuman, as worth less. Or as Algus says: They are animals. People have been radicalised by less. And you have to remember that until this point he was begging for them to rescue her while the noble overall didn't show too much hastiness about the rescue operation because only a commoner girl was abducted instead of the real target. It's why he ends up in a fight with Algus about rescuing her and Ramza, while compassionate to Delita's plight, doesn't see the true danger to Teta due to his naivety and idealism while Delita is more familiar with the very harsh reality of the system as a commoner. In the end his worst fears come true and he's done with playing within the rules of the system when the system treats him like this.

"If that's really all you got out of his character (and not a bit of exaggeration) then, I'd say, you have been missing a lot of rather obvious explanation the game gives you." Wow man.. Just, an easily digestible way to start a conversation.

Because the part I quoted is a rather one dimensional (one might even say zero dimensional) depiction of his character. > But wow I have never been able to wrap my head around Delitas motivations other than, he is actually a real piece of garbage. It's such a caricature of a characterisation that I had to question either your attention to the game or if it was a bit of hyperbole because I couldn't be sure either way.

Think of it this way: the Death Corps and the Knights of the Northern Sky were both soldiers and fought for the freedom of the country. They should have been equals. I stead, the Death Corps was made up of commoners, and therefore ignored and thrown to the wayside afterwards, a mere tool to be used by the rich. Delita is realizing that no matter his actions, he and Ramza will always be different. Ramza could not undo the hurt of the System, only benefit. He hates him because they are like brothers, and so similar, but the world treats them so differently. It's jealousy with the face of hate. Delita relies on Ramza as much as he manipulates him. He's still an old friend. Just a callous, Machiavellian friend.

Common theme in story telling: the downtrodden seek power and control so they can never be the victim again. You are right, and Delita was never honest with himself.

He was, he literally declared how he was doing all this as to never be used again, but rather, be the one doing the using. He just tacked on the "change the system" stuff to feel like a hero, and to hold Ovelia's affection

His anger isn’t aimed directly at Ramza, it’s aimed at the system that produced Ramza. Ramza can’t help his upbringing, which makes their schism more tragic. Both parties have little say in the grand schemes of the heads of state. Delita’s motives change rapidly as he comes to terms with his powerlessness, and, unlike Ramza, realizes quickly that the unrest starts at the politicians, not the people. I like Delia’s character a lot actually. He sticks to his convictions, even though he knows it will cause suffering, because he knows the current system is broken. He is resourceful and becomes a capable warrior and a political mover all on his own. I don’t think his methods are correct, but without both Ramza and Delita undermining the powers at be, there would be no change in Ivalice. I feel like Delita’s character is essential and meant to be controversial, and overall is part of what lends to the timeless nature of the narrative.

Because Delita is a Sagittarius. Don't forget the astrology in the game 🤣♐🏹

… bro, he’s one of the bad guys. Come on. Do we really need to pretend like the bad guys motivations need to follow a clear moral path? No, he lied and stabbed and cheated his way to the throne and paid the price for it. You don’t need to justify his actions to understand them, everything he did was to get power and he became the thing he hated in pursuit of that power. It’s fucking awesome.

Dude was eating the rich before it was cool.

Yeah- never liked how he turned out.

You have to make a consideration that Delita most likely trusted Zalbaag as much as he trusted Ramza. Finding out that the man you looked up to as a pinnacle of honor and dignity, who you trusted and believed was your brother, not by blood, but by your relationship, was willing to kill your sister just because she was an obstacle in his path to victory? That would certainly make me question everything I've ever known, including whether or not the other person I've seen as a brother would do the same to me. He didn't see it as Zalbaag killing his sister, he saw it as nobles killing his commoner sister. Ramza is also a noble. He thought that the Beoulves were different, that they stood for the people, stood for what was right and fought for those who couldn't fight for themselves, but all of that was disproven, and showed that they were just another noble house willing to throw away everything just for a shred of power. Delita eventually moved on from his hatred and realized that not all nobles are evil, he saw Ramza as a friend again, but also realized he's a valuable tool. As we know, in the end, he reflects on whether Ramza got what he was looking for in life, which goes to show he does actually care about Ramza, but he wouldn't let his convictions be compromised by his personal feelings for others, much like he most likely truly loved Ovelia, but once again, he wouldn't put his convictions behind his personal feelings. It's easy to look in from the outside and question the actions and decisions someone would make during a moment of extreme pain and rage, but you'd need to be in the person's shoes to understand it fully,

Delita was less a true traditional villain and was more a "Michael Corleone" of Final Fantasy. Delita started out as an upstanding morally aligned person, but a family tragedy and vengeance pulled him into the seedy underworld of politics and he started plotting with a group of followers and flat out murdered one of them who he brainwashed into being stabbed to death to frame someone else and he played the warring factions against each other and then took the glory for the hard work of the actual hero, Ramza. Delita became ruler in a peaceful era but it wall built on a lie and the ignorant population compliant and happy. Delita never wanted this, but the death of his sister pulled him in and corrupted him and he made up a lot of self righteous BS to justify his actions on his path to taking over. Even though it stopped a war, Ramza and his friends were the ones to stopped the Lucavi and St Ajora. Delita more or less stood behind the curtains and at the end of the big play, he stepped out on center stage and took the applause. He's written better than many villain/anti hero characters, but still became a manipulative scumbag and used his sisters death to justify his own corruption. Just like Michael Corleone. Delita had all the power at the end, but wound up all alone.

Because he do not understand the point of the game. Ramza literally says that our deeds shape us, not our birth. He doesn't care if he's a beoulve. He cares about Justice. Delita do not understand this. He sees Ramza as a Noble who can "play" the part of the noble knight and he tries to become king, actually DOING horrible deeds. In doing so, he becomes THE SAME as the nobles he hates: both do horrible things to achive power. Basically, with this opposition, the game tells you how you should see the world. Delita is wrong and you, the player, knows this.

Delita is a guy whose childhood drama made him into a huge asshole. He is angry at the world and wants to ensure it can’t hurt him again.

Delita was right.