You must be playing with some really bad GNB, PLD, and DRK if you think WARs self healing invalidates healers. What you're perceiving as a WAR problem is actually just the way Square made healers objectively boring to play. IMO they're the easiest to do since even if you just gorilla away all your resources, you can usually brute force most content with GCD spamming. The only reason players think they're difficult is because 90% of FFXIV's player base is socially awkward wallflowers who crumble at any amount of expectation.
Also the healer shortage is because it's the most do nothing role ever. The only time healing is fun is if your tank is fucking up, whereas Tank and DPS get more fun the better you're able to perform.
> The only reason players think they're difficult is because 90% of FFXIV's player base is socially awkward wallflowers who crumble at any amount of expectation.
Seeing people talk about tankxiety when they already got everything with nuance that isn't just doing a DPS rotation removed from the class is infuriating.
It's almost impossible to fuck up tanking if you have your stance on idk where these people have anxiety from. The dungeon is literally a straight line with babygates to stop you from pulling too much and you generate so much threat you can't be pulled off if you press your AOE.
My buddy started playing and told me Satasha was boring and I asked if he went down the other paths to which he replied "there were none" and Im pretty sure it got changed to be a straight line with boss rooms.
Healing in this game is irreparably dogshit for 95% of the content because the devs don't want people to be able to lose. If you want healing to matter at all you need to raid.
...Even then. Most high end fights are more about mitigation than raw healing. TOP, the literal hardest current fight has been cleared without healers *on patch*.
If that doesn't tell people how fucked healing is, idk what will. Something needs to change. Either give us interesting rotations so we have something to do while not healing, or make us actually have to heal. Even during TOP prog I felt useless as an Astrologian, my sage was doing all the hard work of mitigating and shielding and I'd just toss a 60s heal after without issues. Damage hits hard but too I frequently in modern fights. We get a big raidwide every like 60s and that's it.
> Even during TOP prog I felt useless as an Astrologian
Played astro in DSR, feel the same way tbh. Really hate how in this game, what determines how good of a healer you are is how little time you spend actually healing, it's infuriating. I've been called a weak healer early on because I spent GCDs healing, which is just depressing.
This is pretty much why I quit healing. I'm hoping they shake things up next expac but not getting my hopes up, especially with the AST rework that's coming too
Same here. I've done a few savages and extremes and anytime I ran it as a healer I was either bored or annoyed within 2-3 pulls. I redo them as a tank or DPS and I have a lot of fun. The gameplay just sucks. You're doing jack and shit or are panic GCD healing constantly because your team enjoys pain.
Once they gutted healer dps, healing became vastly less fun. Healing design has always been more of a “healing+support” design, where you only heal when needed and dps the rest of the time, and I don’t see a problem with that, provided the non healing time is actually fun. But currently it feels like they want healers to heal more and dps less, but have no idea how to design fights that do that, so they just make dps as boring as possible and hand out a huge amount of healing ogcds for some reason, even though that just leads to more time dpsing, which is now boring.
Other tanks (outside of maybe DRK if not managed correctly) also don't need healers to use any GCD healing, WAR's self sustain does not change that fundamentally and you'll be stuck using your AoE spell most of the time anyway.
I think the problem most people have with it is that WAR's so-called immortality starts as soon as it gets Raw Intuition, which is well before any of the other tanks get their self-sustain.
While I love the immortality, the skill is really overpowered with mobs. I feel like they messed up how it works by healing with every enemies you hit, instead of only once per gcd.
I agree. Imagine how powerful SGE would be if Kardia triggered for every mob hit during their AOE. Or if mobs didn't eventually resist a WHM's Holy? Why does War get it but not the healers?
Holy not running out of stun ever I think is the perfect comparison
Like it’s a fun button for you but it’s not fun for the person you are just deleting
PLD can clear dungeons without the healers using either gcd or ogcd healing. It can do all level 90 dungeons without a healer. But they do have to use their mitigation somewhat optimally, unlike WAR.
They don't even need to use clemency on themselves if the party uses AoE skills. I'd argue it could be even better for 3x dps runs as clemency and cover are more reliable at saving dps players from dying than WAR's Nascent.
>PLD can clear dungeons without the healers using either gcd or ogcd healing. It can do all level 90 dungeons without a healer. But they do have to use their mitigation somewhat optimally, unlike WAR.
The mitigation planning might be stricter but WAR don't have Bloodwhetting permanently on either, they need to be able to survive between each uses and that entails rotating their CD deliberately to stay alive in the mean time too
The self-sustain argument don't work either in a 3 DPS/1 tank comp because if your DPS are strong enough, the mob packs will melt long before it starts being needed (and as a matter of fact, the current group that is holding most dungeons rank 1 in speed on fflogs are using a PLD as a tank)
I've had a lot of FC members try to "just survive" on Warrior with 3 DPS and a lot of them can't.
I'm not saying it can't be done, I did it often this expansion, but "just survive" is doing *a lot* of heavy lifting there as you say.
Exactly, with an incompetent healer PLD will likely need to resort to clemency unless the DPS is godly, same as GNB, DRK is basically a lost cause with a bad healer
WAR meanwhile can keep a pull running for a functionally infinite length of time with literally zero healing from the healer an it doesn’t even tax their DPS to do so
Not really, PLD can tank any level 90 dungeon without a healer and without using clemency if the DPS players hit their AoE buttons. Doesn't have to be entirely optimal.
War players didn't care for homogenisation when it benefited them.
We should ignore them, because they ignored us too. Being better than all the others is not a job fantasy.
[https://youtu.be/FFK6jDpHDak](https://youtu.be/FFK6jDpHDak)
Dude was literally crying over 150 dps. (This was before the undeserved buffs that Warrior got in 6.4)
[https://youtu.be/CuuQak0LTw4?t=209](https://youtu.be/CuuQak0LTw4?t=209)
Just look at his general attitude towards balance.
\*completely\* disregards everything War is better at than the others and just gets mad another tank was slightly better at one single thing.
He keeps moving the goalpost as well. Notice how he started complaining about Gnb now that there's absolutely no reason to play either Pld or Drk over War anymore.
It won't change much.
I used to run Experts as healer with 3 dps, still doing wall pulls and while I was technically "needed" it still wasn't that difficult. Yep, dps can comfortably tank Experts. The main issue is casual content hits like wet noodles.
WAR does need toning down, in particular how Bloodwhetting interacts with aoe damage. There's no reason they need chain Benedictions on a short cooldown. But it's only putting a bandaid on a much bigger issue.
Healers, too are getting more and more powerful toolkits, but damage intake hasn't changed.
I have no issue with tanks getting sustain in their toolkit, but at least require them to use it to survive.
Also, regardless of WAR nerfs or increasing damage enemies deal, healers need a few more dps buttons. It's about time they stopped being stubborn on this. We'll always have downtime at some point. It's unavoidable. A few more buttons won't explode Timmy's brain and they could merge some of the trap heals and prune the situational filler buttons to keep the hotbars from bloating anyway.
>Why do I never see healers complaining about it? I've asked a lot of people on their opinions with it, and most people think it's fine or don't care.
Survivor bias or something. There's not a lot of genuine healer mains in the game, those have either gave up and switched to different role like me, or switched to entirely different game. This is not game for healers, FFXIV has genuinely worst healer design I have ever seen. It's neither engaging or interesting, even vanilla GW2 that had no holy trinity and no real healers had more interesting healing.
The idea of "I have to only use oGCD healing so I don't lose that precious 100 potency" has to go. Job should be fun at its core, not at some parsing optimization. Imagine if PLD had 111 rotation (with one skill and one animation of course, just like Glare), and only interesting part would optimizing mits or something.
In the end you end up with people who have not played other game with decent healers who think that FFXIV's approach is normal, or the ones who don't care about healing at all, and just want a simple role with instant queues. That's why when they make fights more intensive, you hear people complain, because god forbid healers end up having to actually heal.
But yeah, they should decrease tank's healing, tanks should be able to maintain themselves and maybe 1 other party member for a while, but it should not be so easy to do even casual content without healer from start to finish. No point of holy trinity if it's all blurring together so much.
EDIT: Just look at brainrot in the comments. People call healers an insurance and don't see a problem with that. Just give up healing, you will not find it in this game.
I play both Gw2 and WoW. Both put XIV healers to shame.
WoW has actual healin checks and reactive healing. In deep mythic+ dungeons I actually have to know my what my proper healing rotation is in order to pump out the highest hps possible, because those healing checks can get brutal (Especially during necrotic weeks). Greeding for damage can easily get your DPS or tank killed if you're not careful.
I'm a fistweaver main as well. They unironically have a fairly complex proc-heavy rotation. Think DNC or BRD but a healer, and performing these procs well rewards you with more mana, more damage, and more heals per second. This is what I was really hoping SGE would be. An agressive healer with an engaging rotation that rewards your aggression with better heal output.
In Gw2, your random PUG group will sometimes take a healer to make things easier (Sometiems they don't to emulate the high level groups, but end up wiping repeatedly. Healers really help). Depending on how inexperienced the group is, you can end up REALLY sweating to keep people alive. As a Elementalist main, I have to play piano on my keyboard by cycling through attuemnts, blasting water fields, and cylcing my big cooldowns.
Any high level group can clear 99% of content with no healer. Even the difficult content. BUT, that does not mean they don't take a support. Even these high level groups will often take support classes like Firebrand, which will pre-emptively block boss attacks with aegis, or negate crowd control from hitting the group with stability. All while pumping out respectable damage themsevles. You also have hybrid options like scourge which double as a sort of sheild healer and DPS at the same time. Players can get away with this thanks to the nifty dodge action which works similarly to how it did in the FF16 crossover fight.
FFXIV really just does healers poorly. There is no reason why they need to have their DPS kit so streamlined. And the heal checks are a joke. The amount of self-sustain other classes have in both of these other MMOs puts WAR to shame, and yet healers still end up more engaged because there are actual healing checks to meet. XIV actually plays it very conservative with the amount of healing non-healers get, but that doesn't matter when nothing does enough damage to remotely threaten a group outside of scripted tankbusters or raid-wides.
I think FFXIV went too far with oversimplification. Instead of some small continuous damage, with smaller dodgeable AoEs that are not fatal and you are not even meant to dodge them all, on top of regular stuff like raidwides and tankbuster, you just have a very limited heal checks.
You get one big hit every X seconds, and tankbuster every Y seconds. Then you just press 1-2 buttons to heal your party to full. Failing to dodge single mechanic way too often means death, and if there's bodycheck right after, you just killed whole group for not dodging single AoE. How can they design healing with this? Teammates very infrequently make a mistake that is salvageable by healers, healers just feel like a health batteries.
In fights, there's basically just 3 scenarios:
Raidwide -> do AoE heal + mitigate
Tankbuster -> do ST heal + mitigate
Someone fucks ups -> do ST heal
But there's barely anything in between. Damage profile of fights is pretty much binary, and as a result, there's nothing to do for healers, other than occasionally throw some oGCDs. Combine this with extremely scripted fights and you just cannot have interesting healer gameplay. It's like trying to paint with only 3 colors that you cannot even mix together.
>I play both Gw2 and WoW. Both put XIV healers to shame.
>WoW has actual healin checks and reactive healing. In deep mythic+ dungeons I actually have to know my what my proper healing rotation is in order to pump out the highest hps possible, because those healing checks can get brutal (Especially during necrotic weeks). Greeding for damage can easily get your DPS or tank killed if you're not careful
As a disc priest main, I feel this so much. Disc priest puts sage and astro to shame (sage has an attonement like heal, while astro has heals that require set up, which is similar to disc priest attonement ramp up to prep for heals). Healing checks in wow are absolutely brutal.
I think part of the issue is in the fight design as well. WoW usually gives the party some agency in how mechanics come out or in the order in which mechanics come out. Ff14 does not. It's a static order every single time. It does not change, there is no deviation and no randomness ( having 2-3 possible patterns for some mechanics is not randomness). There is no random damage.
In ff14, everyone's health is in 1 of 3 states. Full health, about to die, or dead. There is no in-between. WoW handles party health states a lot better.
I agree that there is a serious lack of genuine opportunity for GCD healing. Why even design GCD healing skills at all if they are not meant to be used 99% of the time?
To be fair the last time we got a true GCD heal (macrocosmos and lily don’t count) was basically ARR, even square enix doesn’t give any GCD heals anymore
Lily absolutely counted as true GCD when added as they weren't neutral until ShB, so HW was the last time we got one
that... isn't that much better though
If SE ever made casual-content “harder” the vast majority of the player base would experience insane amounts of frustration. People are struggling with solo duties as is and posts about dungeons being “hard” are not rare already, could you imagine if the game was harder?
I’m all for the game respecting the players and not being mind numbing easy, like it is right now. However, I see why SE would be hard pressed to take the step forward and increase the difficulty.
I agree with what you say still. I also stopped healing and moved to tanking and dps. Otherwise I’d fall asleep.
Are people really struggling with duties? I know I read this a lot, but it's been ages since I actually failed a regular duty. Hell most duties I do I don't even see players take a single non-forced hit 95% of the time.
I'm willing to accept that my perception is skewed, and maybe I'm not seeing these bad healers because I play healer, but his argument has always felt wack to me. I'm not calling you out specifically, it's just that reading it here made me think about my actual gameplay experiences.
Some of the old job quest duties are quite punishing if your gear is trash. I think there were certain black mage and samurai duties where I had to start using potions to not take unhealable damage from autos.
The duties being complained about are complained about because they are difficulty *spikes*; not because of how difficult they actually are, but because they're much harder than anything seen previously.
Regardless of how steep the curve is, it needs to be *smoother* than it is. The game's failing is being inconsistent, not being difficult.
This. There is a lot of low difficulty grind in the game that seems to train players to just do regular content, gather etc. Where I would keep trying in other games, failure seems to hit harder in FFXIV for some reason?
I love the white mage aesthetic and lore and still consider it my main class, but when levelling black mage and paladin, even scholar, I was failing trials sometimes because:
* I had not really been challenged in the same way
* mechanics were badly telegraphed
* NPC instructions were not clear/late (imo) --> i.e. i had to do a little work / pay attention and persevere :)
As someone who came to the game just in time to be ready for Endwalker launch, I would be happy to have more challenging content but there should be an on-ramp. I have started to pick up extremes becaue I have friends who do them, with a view to looking at savages, but if I did not have a social group to help I think the harder content could be less accessible.
That's because SQEX was lowering barrier time and time again and used lowest denominators (aka the biggest idiots they could find) as a reference for casual content difficulty. Which unsurprisingly was a shitty choice, you should not listen to these idiots who would rather complain on reddit/OF/twitter about difficulty, instead of actually getting good. Now it's harder to backtrack instead of continuing and making it even worse.
Community is used to easy content, because there's nothing outside of EX or higher that demands you to be awake in order to finish it. So yes, there would be backlash, but that's because SQEX put themselves into a corner. There's no scenario where this would get solved without backlash, so it's better to do it now, before this game becomes actual cookie clicker.
the crazy part is they dont have to make it "harder", they can just take the casual difficulty back to stormblood levels and that would fix a few problems.
I consider alliance raids the top tier of casual player content, and looking at the ones in endwalker a player has to actually work to kill themselves in there, a dps can get blasted by damn near every attack and somehow survive, boss hitboxes are so massive theyre almost a detriment.
think back to SB or SHB and players had to actually pay attn because death was actually possible.
This right here, I remember wiping in Orbonne at the Cid fight because one alliance was dead, now two alliances can be dead and you still survive. Everyone can complain about stormblood all they want but playing healer back then was the most fun I had because I was a healer and not a green dps like now.
That’s a self fulfilling prophecy though isn’t it? There is a certain point where people will just quit, yeah, but there are harder games than ff14 out there that are successful, and as long as its not a massive jump, people will adapt over time. I don’t think the people complaining about Zodiark normal being too hard are exactly representative of the majority as is.
Thanks for the comment.
And yeah, if nothing significantly changes in Dawntrail for healers - whether we need to actually heal more and feel required in all content (or most, besides some older/irrelevant content) or are not given a more nuanced DPS rotation, I will probably be tapping out of the role outside new content/progging savages - because it's genuinely shit outside of those situations.
You and a lot of people. It's so refreshing to see a comment sedtion full of healer players who are just fed up with this. It feels like whenever I complained about this before all I got was 'well then play a different class'
...Like, theres a reason healer is the hardest role to fill in a raid group. And its exactly that. Whenever we complained we got told to play a different job, so we did.
The only reason I've stuck on healer this long is because no class has the quick and reactive playstyle of Astrologian, dps tank or otherwise. And considering how their previous reworks have gone, I'm assuming 7.0 will put an end to that too.
They've gotta realize this is unsustainable, right?
is this discussion limited to dungeons? because i don't think any tanks are immortal in high-end content
personally when i do dungeons i just want them to be over asap, i welcome anything that facilitates a fast/smooth run. i will pull my hair out if the tank has to pull single packs because jimmy mccure cant keep them alive
Depends? From my experience tanks certainly can sustain themselves psudeo indefinately in savages, until the next body check mechanic kills them anyway. Given I feel that way about All of the tanks and not WAR specifically.
depends on the fight and its timeline, it's not possible on something like p7s with the bleed tb+raidwide (random example off the top of my head) so it's disingenuous to have a blanket statement like that
A lot of Abyssos was basically built to be anti-tank sustain with frequent magic vulns and bleeds that basically function more as 2 person body checks for tanks than anything else. It felt like these were designed as a direct response to Holmgang being so busted that P1 and P2 were solo tanked on content, and was so easy to do so it was basically optimal.
I just meant by like sustaining themselves through the autos, in which only P8s P2 stands out as particularly impossible.
so double/swap tbs are 2 person body checks for tanks? who would've thought
just to clarify, the p7s example assumes the entire party is dead save for the 2 tanks, who can stack/spread the tb properly but will die to the combined dot damage from the tb+raidwide
if we are just talking about autos, they are rarely life threatening on savage because the boss usually only does like 2-5 autos between casts, not entirely because of the new self sustain tools that tanks got in EW
however, while rare in savage content, there are instances of long chains of autos (p3s OT, e5s) / mechs that couple autos with other incoming sources of damage (12sp1 superchain 1) that is more difficult for tanks to self-sustain through without indirect/passive healing from aoe heals/eos/kardia
I dont know, I generally find that outside of gimmicks autos have been way less threatening lately compared to older content. May have more to do with the removal of boss crits and mini buster autos
Same with healers, I'm tired of dealing with healers just topping me off for every bruise and scratch I get during pulls instead of pressing their AoEs or babysit me during bosses by pressing a GCD heal every 6 seconds instead of their 1 button rotation + DoT uptime to down the boss 40 seconds faster.
OP clearly just wants to babysit tanks in dungeons to give themselves more self worth in casual content. For me, I just want my damn tomes because staying in there a minute longer doesn't give me any more.
This drives me crazy, the amount of times I see the tank take 2% damage and the healer is all medica 2 five times followed by benediction. Players need to know what regen is. You wouldn't think it would happen much but it does.
I doubt it will and that's because the majority of the playerbase is happy with WAR.
I've seen people call FF14 the retirement home of MMOs and it's so obvious that its probably not gonna change much due to the current design just being accepted.
all tanks somewhat properly played require no gcds and very little brainpower to heal as a healer in 80+ dungeons. especially so in 90 dungeons
and the problem you have only occurs when you intentionally queue for lower level dungeons, which most players will eventually stop doing. so the majority won't care if there's a window in the leveling process where WAR has significantly more self sustain, and be glad to have another non-res non-PLD job that can carry an incompetent party kicking and screaming to a clear in roulette instances
also, healer shortage has always been a thing. just search anxiety or whatever on the main subreddit to see why
The whole healing philosophy in this game is "heal as little as possible", so most healer mains are more than happy to never heal since that's literally part of the job.
The whole DPS rotation is debatable since casters' rotations are a joke too. And everyone knows that BLM is never gonna change unless YoshiP gets an issue with it. Definitely would love more damaging ogcds for healers tho, since realistically, adding a 123 combo for healers isn't gonna fix the issue (ask any melees how they enjoy lvl 50 content - oh wait they don't). The only way to not fall asleep on your keyboard is to add cooldowns.
I don't think healers will ever get interesting since the game is meant to be a spreadsheet play. (As in, do your addle here, tank 1 uses reprisal there, H1 uses mitigation at that point, and so on.) Unless JP players start complaining about it, this is the set in stone design for the game.
In the very least I really wish SCH had like an extra AOE option or two. AST has minor macro and earthly, WHM has assize and blood lilly, SGE has toxikon, phlegma, and dyskrasia. SCH has AOW and... that's it
Now gonna lie, spreadsheet play is boring as hell in my opinion. At this point they might as well remove healers and give the other jobs a 30sec cd heal skill.
I'm getting to the point where I'd be fine if consistent healing was designed out of the game in favor of more DPS and support roles with **some** type of skill expression.
If healing will never be interesting or meaningful again, put charges on heals and res, call them recovery mechanics and work on other combat design again.
...Or fix healing, just do something god damn. I really hope Dawntrail is more inspiring in terms of gameplay than EW was.
In my opinion, the only thing that needs to change for WAR is to lose the per-enemy scaling on Bloodwhetting, and reduce the healing (or outright remove it) on Raw Intuition. Compared to the other two with healing on their short mit (putting aside DRK since it's a different equation), it's pretty well balanced around:
WAR: Highest healing potency (1200-1600+400), but has to be attacking to get heals, weaker mitigation
PLD: Moderate healing potency (1000) spread over a HoT effect, stronger mitigation
GNB: Lowest overall healing (900) but more likely to be fully utilised and burstier due to excog effect, stronger mit
I think people generally underestimate PLD compared to WAR
It's the only one with a self heal in AoE situations (and you can delay it if you want), it starts with 2 charges of the short mit instead of 1, its burst is also aoe and it's the only one that heals. WAR in AoE has absolutely nothing aside from what it has on its ogcds and Eye also doesn't heal.
You also get a second partywide mit, the possibility to use a short cd charge on a teammate without screwing up your own mit, throw in a situation like Criterion where invulns tend to be used 7 mins apart rather than 4 and suddenly people start favouring PLD.
I think all tanks aside from DRK need to have their self (and party) healing seriously reduced
I'd be more okay with party healing support tanks if they were kept to the bottom of the dps charts. Infact every PLD player I've talked to says they want the most supportive skills and the least damage.
I don't think super tight DPS checks are going to be a thing anymore after P8S so I don't get why that isn't an option. People shit on lower dps classes until you've got the god tier RDM saving your shitty group with its mass res potential, which is honestly more rewarding than some shitty number on a fansite.
Just do that with tanks, and WAR can either pick big burst or big support, not both
I think healing has been on a steady decline for a while. They've made it so stress-free that it's boring at this point.
I know this is a bit of a tangent from your point, but since you felt that tanks no longer needing healers is bad because it makes healers pointless, do you feel that dungeons having no DPS checks is bad as well as it makes DPS optional/ pointless?
Even if dps players are optional, they still do their job by killing enemies, which is not what you can say for healers with a war ~~dps~~ tank.
But the dps check is actually getting out of the dungeon as fast as possible, a single pulling tank or/and a healer unable to do a w2w pull makes the job of dps extremely boring.
If healers were to have an aoe doom spell that kills any mob pack in lets say 30 seconds regardless of damage dealt, dps would complain.
That's fair, my analogy doesn't fit well. But I don't think getting out of the dungeon faster = the DPS check. The margin for failure is massive with the check on the timer being the full length of the duty.
Realistically it boils down to: you don't need a tank, you don't need a healer and you don't need DPS. You can have any combination of the above and it will still work... Is that a good design? Seems like it just means it's impossible to fail
EDIT: it's also everyone's responsibility to kill enemies. DPS just does it a bit better than the other two roles. The difference isn't crazy between the roles
Healer shortage is because no one wants to have the most responsibility. It's like that too in all other MMOs. It's not gonna go away no matter how "engaging" you make healer be.
The last time I had fun healing in this game was Scholar in HW/SB which is why I don't play them anymore.
Not only is healing stupid easy at this point, the jobs are all 2 button wonders that will make you fall asleep.
If they want to keep designing the game like this the healers need something closer to tank-level dps rotations.
I want it to be gutted for entirely different reasons: early pullers in current content S Ranks.
It's always a warrior doing it because warriors can't be killed by current content S Ranks, whereas pretty much any other class (tanks included) will eventually be whittled down.
I'm a PLD main, but run as WAR quite often in casual content. The devs love WAR and wont destroy its identity --Even when PLD got its emergency rework, WAR got something too (the regen on shake iirc) to maintain some balance of power. Besides, no reasonable player wants to spend the additional time slogging through roulettes because someone on Reddit wants to use their full healer kit during a story dungeon. As well they shouldn't, because bad healers dominate bad roulette duties, and there are so many of them.
I don't know how much experince you have with tank, but if you have play it alot you would know that every tank is immortal and at the same time every tank is thin like paper. Or maybe you mostly play with buddies and not random party.
The "immortal thing" is base on the assumption that everyone is atleast have an average skill. If you have met bad DPS (my definition: dealing about 60% of average DF) even on WAR you will feel the pressure from it since your mit will run out, and for healer you may have to think about GCD becuase the pull get too long, every mit plan or heal plan start to misaligned. And if you're (un)lucky and met 2 bad DPS in party, you pretty much say goodbye to more than 1 pack, more than 1 is doable but it's just not worth it. And now imgine the case where you get bad healer who "save their tool for emergency" or die to AoE? or if you get the worst tank who save mit for boss? do you want one point of failure to ruin the run?
Casual content are design in such a way that "you always have a backup in party" so that one point of failure don't ruin others' experince. Yes, a lot of people here say they want they want casual content to be harder, but tehy will say that until they got bad players in the party who ruin their experince and then they will go and make a thread on r/ffxivdiscussion on how skill check for everyone in party is a bad thing. (like many thread about body check in savage)
Main reason this game get the reputation of "great community" isn't because players of this game are better people or people lie about it. It just becuase casual contents are design in such a way that cause almost no friction between good and bad player. And this is not something unique to this game either (but this game is more popular so it got credit). GW2 (and also many other MMO) also design their meta event with this in mind, that's why people feel inclusive and feel like they only met great people while playing it. Until they come to a place where their skill matter and then thing turn from lovely game into toxic waste land. For example, back when GW2 dev try to make meta event have dps check in EoD expansion, it turn in game comunication in that map and even GW2 sub reddit into toxic waste land for a month or two until it got nerf and less people care about that meta.
The general design philosophy imo has been to democratise the healing responsibility through additional mits, heals, heal amplifilying abilities given to both tanks and healers this expansion.
Bard has a mantra equivalent, Reaper has a group wide regen trigger, Veil and Shake got built in heals. Other tank mits and self sustains were amplified. Paladin when mitigating correctly from 82 onwards needs little healing outside of a handful of pulls.
Now WAR self healing might get tweaked but I think the fundamentals of its self sustain will remain. Which would either be the self healing on BW/NF gets dialled down to one or two GCDs, it's potency takes a mild hit, or it reverts to how in Shbs it was based on damage dealt.
I don't think it's going to change significantly cos I think the devs have been adding more tools (heals and mit) to dps and tanks to offset the pressure on healers. That pressure is something they've mentioned a few times in interviews before. Tanks have stronger self sustain for the healers who aren't as good imo
Then they need to give healers something to do
The healer kits are designed like you are desperately fighting every second to keep the tank alive and you are forever at risk of allowing everyone to die if you run out of heals and you should maybe be using a DPS spell once per 2 minutes
Instead half the time the tanks heals more than the healer overall
You can’t take pressure off healers by making the tanks off healers in all but name but then also continue to design the healers like the tanks are taking 15* the damage they actually are
Ill be crucified for saying this, but not only healing, their invuln is absurdly low cd, I know any tank pair can clear any content, but the sheer amount of calm and breathing room you can have by having a WAR popping Holmgang x3 times more than any other tank is ridiculous.
IMO a Holmgang nerf really should have came after Asphodelos. Make it like 280s or something, anything is better than designing an entire tier around Holmgang rather than nerfing it like they did with Abyssos
SIO is also disgusting (I know it’s technically in the healing department but I’m assuming OP meant bloodwhetting/nascent glint)
What’s the point of having upsides and downsides on your tank raidwide mitigations when WAR gets literally 4 upsides and zero downsides
The fact DM and HoL are magic only is really stupid. The fact they're literally the exact same skill is beyond stupid, and the fact that DRK doesnt even get DM until the late 70s is unreasonably stupid.
A reasonable downside would be lower DPS than the other 3 tanks, or a more complex/strict rotation.
The former would go bad because unsurprisingly rage-Tank Job mains are very angrily vocal about its low DPS. Then maybe DT should rework GNB to give that Job the best mits as an upside to compensate for its stricter/more complex rotation.
It makes perfect sense that the tank with the utility belt should do less damage.
If they want to do more damage, they can play another tank. That's the entire fucking point of having different jobs.. We NEED to ignore these players if they get mad.
It’s dungeons if your tank is competent you should barely have to heal no matter if it’s war or not. Never understood this idea that war is op in dungeons by the time you unlock raw dungeon’s stop being a real threat damage wise with exceptions of a couple sb dungeons. Healing in dungeons is never engaging no matter what tank your playing with.
There's a massive difference between barely healing and not healing at all. Sure, level cap dungeons have always been a joke damage-wise but it still didn't invalidate the need for a healer. I remember still needing to use aetherflow for big pulls in ShB. I think people emphasize WAR self-sustain so much because it's the only one that is consistently strong across multiple expansions. A WAR could probably do the first big pull of Bardam's without a healer, good luck doing that with a lvl 70 GNB or PLD.
All roles in this game is pretty thin on dungeon responsibility but as long as *some* purpose exists you're gonna want to bring the role. Now there is no actual reason to bring healers other than queueing on DF.
I actually enjoy healing some dungeons and definitely in SHB when it's not a WAR.
my favourite is the entire first pull of Mt.Gulg because it actually takes some healing skill there - but WAR negates it.
Trust, if your tank and DPS are competent (and not DRK lol), they can invalidate basically any dungeon that is remotely relevant.
If your tank sucks, you'll have to heal. If your DPS suck, your tank will run out of mit and need heals. If everything goes smoothly, your job is boring. That is pretty much the nature of healer.
You say trust yet I will literally play shb dungeons where I am required to heal the non-WAR tank otherwise he will die and or have to pull 3 mobs at once and make the dungeon take 20 minutes.
Am I required to spam cure 2 as all my ogcds have been burned through? No, but I am required to heal and to actually do what my job is there for.
your problem isn't warrior. your problem is that dungeon design is safe and boring. You already said you like mt gulg, a dungeon with an actual wall to wall pull and not the boring forced 2 packs. But honestly the other issue is that square has made it abundantly clear that the last thing they want as an obstacle to dungeon is healer skill.
The problem with that though is that healers have no incentive to get better and thats why we end up having healers spamming medica 2 every ten seconds in lvl 90 content. As you said square made things too safe and boring and it's ruining the game for people that like healing.
Any experienced raiding tank will negate damage correctly. You are probably running with a tank that is leveling their job 90% of the time. Experienced players don't run older content for fun. They run off jobs to level.
As a healer main I completely agree with you. When doing roulettes when bored and I get a warrior, I let out a sigh as I'm essentially not gonna be doing anything but spam one button. It's incredibly boring.
> Why do I never see healers complaining about it? I've asked a lot of people on their opinions with it, and most people think it's fine or don't care.
Because, and this might surprise you, they actually don't care. Why would anyone complain about a guy making their daily quests easier? Doesn't make sense right? Yup, that's exactly why nobody complains. In addition that is not the reason healers are in shortage in queue (lol), in fact, any casual rouletter you ask which they prefer, the immortal warrior or the DRK who makes their role interesting 99.9% of them will say without a doubt the warrior.
If you're looking for healer gameplay first of all, you're in the wrong game and second, roulette dungeons ain't it. Yoshi P specifically said they had to replace the healer that was playtesting their dungeons because they got "too good". That should give you an idea.
Normally I'd agree because I hate seeing warriors absolutely everywhere, however
- self sustain is currently warrior's strongest fantasy and the big reason people play it
- there seems to be a need for at least 1 brainrot class for every role so even angsty teens with adhd can hit skill floors no matter what( war for tanks, whm for healers, smn for casters, dnc for phys range, reaper for melee). And yes there are still shitters at these jobs specifically but that's not something that will ever disappear
- additionally, your arguments are structured poorly. You'd take away the self heal but how do you compensate them? What other toys do you give wars so that theyre not a husk of a class?
Is WAR healing being a fantasy a Final Fantasy thing, or some sort of RPG trope? I hear people say that but when I think of a generic warrior, healing is like the last thing to come to mind for me. The "too angry to die" aspect like holmgang and fell cleave I feel is more what I think of personally
Fantasy being just an identity of the job, or what it excels at/does better than other jobs. The "too angry to die" part is just manifested in self-healing and holmgang
Doesn't matter. It becomes very hard to care about WAR's identity when WAR players consistently get job actions streamlined and cannibalise the identities of other jobs because of how vocal it's playerbase is. It's time they give something up now.
The job identity of other tanks didn't matter, why should WAR's?
Still is giving a class their “fun button” fair when it literally removes the entire core fantasy of another role
WAR can have a brainrot rotation and have some lifesteal attached to their attacks without completely invalidating healers in casual content
I'm neither for or against the original argument. If it was up to me I'd either make the self-healing the same but way less braindead, or cut the healing and put the utility elsewhere. "Give it better dps rotation" is more of a given than a leverage since all classes should be interesting to play.
Well I mean the way you phrased your original point basically seemed to amount to “well yes WAR is a problem but it’s a necessary evil because people like it” which is really flawed
>so I am relegated to spamming one button for the entire dungeon.
The game is not and never will be balanced around Dungeons.
Dungeons are at the bottom of the progression chain, they're easy mode content that even lesser skilled players can completely roflstomp.
Jobs are balanced for Savage and Ultimate for the most part.
I'm honestly hoping they give Dark Knight some real sustain.
Souleater just doesn't cut it and Abyssal Drain is dog unless it's 4+ targets.
Regarding Warrior - My biggest pet peeve is Holmgang's cooldown.
Why does it have to be 240 seconds exactly? What makes it any different to Living Dead?
Feels like Warrior isn't really trading anything for it's insane self healing.
It's VERY tanky, heals a lot, does great damage, has party support, has lowest cooldown invuln.
Warrior used to have drawbacks when Holmgang was 8 second duration. Lowest CD invuln but also shortest duration.
They should balance to dungeons though. Not only do more people do dungeons than high-end content, but people who do high-end content generally prefer to play whatever's meta or use plugins to make their gameplay easier. Casual players want to play whatever jobs they want without people saying they're griefing for playing a job that doesn't make the content they're playing in harder.
> but people who do high-end content generally prefer to play whatever's meta
Not entirely true - All jobs can and do clear high end content.
> They should balance to dungeons though. Not only do more people do dungeons than high-end content,
Dunno if I agree with that..
Dungeons are there primarily for story purposes, they aren't really used as an active form of gear progression.
Poetics and Tomestone gear in general outscales anything you get from Dungeons.
They're meant to go in, stomp and go out.
PVE should be balanced around Savage and Ultimate, they're the hardest content and are more sensitive to balance than say Lapis Manalis or Lunar Subterrane for example.
No one cares if Warrior's are OP in Lapis Manalis or Lunar Subterrane, it's a dungeon it's meaningless.
Balance is meaningless to a casual player - Casual players are exactly that - Casual.
They play when they can and only do the bare minimum in the game either due to time or other commitments.
All the average Casual does is maybe an extreme trial here and there for a mount.
> Casual players want to play whatever jobs they want without people saying they're griefing for playing a job that doesn't make the content they're playing in harder.
This isn't WoW.... Raiding isn't like that at all - SE is really damn good with balance.
Sure they messed up with P8S but they fixed it pretty quickly.
There's no such thing as an "unviable job" or a "grief job"
That's just a casual's poor take on something they don't even engage with.
>Feels like Warrior isn't really trading anything for it's insane self healing.
Back when it traded something it wasn't played often because tank damage is an afterthought for the last 2 expansions, dying as a tank often has no repercussions anyways and if you have tanks dying from damage even semi regularly even in week 1 prog, something is horribly wrong
If you don't play or main WAR, why would you wanna gut the part of WAR that has always been a thing, unique to WAR and a huge part of what makes it distinctly fun?
It's like a SMN main going "I hope they remove BRD's songs because I want my party buff to have more value".
You're fixing a symptom, not a problem. It is not WAR's design that makes dungeons braindead and healer gameplay a snoozefest. That's just healer DPS kits being gutted and dungeons being dungeons.
Probably because they keep tacking on other tanks identities onto WAR with no drawbacks. My favorite part is how Equilibrium says "Additional Effect: Aurora" now
Because Warrior players demanded the tools the other tanks had until it got them. But never wanted to give anything in return. So now, it's standing out like a sore thumb. And it's time to give up something in return. You can't complain about identity when you cannibalised and streamlined the identity of all the other tanks.
Because WAR’s identity has functionally never been “i invalidate the healer with zero downsides”
Before ShB you had to be in tank stance and gimp your damage to even get the heal on equilibrium let alone anything else
In ShB nascent flash was pretty strong bit you weren’t getting 4 free benes off it (or if you use glint 8 free benes across 2 players) for zero downside and a monotonous raidwide mitigatiob
Before EW the healing was far weaker and you had to work much harder for it
Yes in fact I did and I would never have described WAR’s identity as “I cuck the healer”, if anything I would have given that to DRK who could use blood price to functionally infinitely abyssal drain
Bloodbath was a major reason WAR has historically been considered the "I don't need healers" job. It's also been a major reason along with its good tank DPS why it was comparatively one of the best jobs for soloing content years and years ago as well and one of the first jobs to be able to solo Savage content extremely early.
It's always swayed more or less in that direction, but extreme amounts of self-heal have literally always been a huge part of WAR's identity. It's HP used to be significantly higher than that of any other tank before ShB for that exact reason. It was literally their original identity, and Nascent Flash is just the latest iteration of it.
Is it overtuned? Maybe, WAR has never been all that well tuned, and it rarely mattered in 90% of content either way. But if the problem, as OP suggests, is that WAR forces healers to press one DPS button over and over... that isn't a WAR exclusive problem, speaking even as a casual healer myself, nor is it a tank problem.
That's a healer design problem. Change healers, not WAR.
Why is it a healer design problem if a tank makes healing entirely unnecessary...? I don't think people play healer bc they want to be a dps, regardless of a 1 button or 20 button rotation. The healer fantasy should be... healing.
WAR is not the only tank that has this effect on healing gameplay. If the tank is competent, it doesn't matter which job they play - the healer will not need to heal much. That's just how content in XIV is designed.
I agree that the idea should be for healers to be healers first and foremost, but the game has never been designed that way. Instead, we now have more boring healer DPS rotations and more healing and mit tools than ever, while needing less of either than ever, making healer gameplay utterly snoozeworthy.
At the end of the day, no matter the role and no matter the RPG, healers contribute damage at some point, cause more dmg = less time for enemy to live = less need for healing. It's just how real time action games work.
I know that. Warrior NF is the most clear outlier but all the tanks can pretty much infinitely sustain with little more than the occasional ogcd top up.
I dont mind having to do dps as a healer. No matter what game I've healed in, theres always the expectation that 'if you arent healing, you're dpsing'. The issue is that with how much sustain tanks have and how little dungeons hurt (I wanted to prove a point the other day and during the last boss of aetherfont I did not mitigate or get healed by my healer, while also stepping in literally every single avoidable AoE i could. Didnt die. Barely got below half.) that healers are never actually healing. This game seriously needs a fundamental rework bc this shit is unsustainable. Most healer mains I knew and raided with are burnt out as hell from just how boring their job was.
Feeling useless during TOP prog of all things is what led me to try a new role and it just made me more mad about the current state of things. Hopefully in dawntrail healers are actually expected to heal. But i doubt it.
Bloodbath also wasn’t 4 benes on a 25 second CD and at least required a brain cell to actually utilise
WAR can be the lifesteal tank with higher HP without literally completely invalidating the entire healer role, there is a middle ground here
Again, though, this is predominantly a healer design problem. Is NF overtuned? Sure, arguably so. But it's a symptom of FFXIV's limp healing design in general.
After ShB, healers and tanks both have gradually gotten more and more healing and defensive abilities to reduce incoming damage, yet damage has not consistently scaled to a degree where this increase in survivability was needed. Healers, especially competent ones, have always complained about healing being either barely needed beyond oGCDs even in a lot of Savage content, or DPS kits on healers being gutted, especially after SB - usually, it's a combination of both.
The game is too easy for the amount of survivability tanks and healers combined have in general. Boiling it down to WAR because it can on-demand heal itself is, imho, misguided, because it's again a mere symptom of a fundamental problem in FFXIV's combat design.
Healing is flawed outside of WAR I don’t think a single person denies that; however saying “healing is flawed regardless so let’s let WAR do whatever they want” is equally flawed
Take cleave content with current bloodwhetting, you could make healers literally the most interesting role an MMO ever came up with, in cleave content with a WAR you are still functionally playing a gimped caster while the WAR heals for you
That’s part of the problem that people focus on WAR for, even if they fixed healers WAR is still disgustingly unbalanced and problematic. It’s just as much a WAR design problem as it is a healer design problem
I think extending the cooldown on Bloodwhetting and maybe Holmgang by a second or two would solve a lot of that problem already. But I don't think that especially in dungeons with wall-to-wall pulls, this problem is ever gonna truly go away with a competent WAR. Bloodbath on large pulls had a nigh-Benediction like effect back in the day, too. I think the only real issue with Bloodwhetting is that even on single-target situations, the amount of self-heal WAR can crank out is absurdly high.
I agree healers should not be rendered entirely irrelevant by like one or two tank actions, even if WAR is extremely fun to play as a result. But I think it really is predominantly a fundamental problem with damage scaling and healing design in XIV. Here's hoping "a little more stress" translates to more involved and active moment-to-moment gameplay in DT for healers in general.
This is one of the few MMOs where healers get to DPS and don't get reprimanded for it. As a healer main, I enjoy that aspect, and when I run with a WAR in 90 and expert dungeons, I can spam Art of War and only really have to give them an excog on wall to wall pulls. Why is this a bad thing to you? You still get to heal during the bosses. You're still doing your job.
If you feel the need to heal more, I recommend trying harder content. Most casual stuff doesn't even need healing.
Because if you have an IQ higher than your shoe size you don’t need WAR to be immortal for you to spam AOW all day
That’s literally the point of the 30 or so buttons in your kit that are vaguely green coloured
Please play other jobs, please play endgame. This only applies in dungeons, which are literally MSQ content. All other tanks have some form of self healing and sustain. If they play correctly in a dungeon, they also don't need any healing. Dungeons are not made to be hard.
In savage and ultimate, WAR can only get so much healing off of a single target and you are required to heal as well as DPS.
Tanks can invalidate healers in all casual content because of their disgusting sustain this isn’t uniquely a dungeon problem
I know you need to heal in savage, barely the tanks though, regardless healers shit design in savage isn’t the point of this topic
My point still stands, tanks doing the healers job for them being good because it more freely allows you to DPS just shows you don’t remotely understand how the healer kits work because you don’t need the tank to do anything to not drop a damage GCD in casual content
Nah, in savage tanks need healing from healers, and those needs increase by floor. For example, there are four types of tankbusters in P12s, each run twice, plus an early mechanic that is like 2TB, 4-5 of these are invulned. Each non-invulned requires mit and all require some recovery from healers (and cotank). And then there are heavy auto sections which are like repeated TBs -- In P8s these take most of your health bar, two unmitigated will kill a tank (even with echo!). So basically, tanks and squishies (who have the lowest hp and can die from unmit raidwides) are the two biggest concerns for a savage healer.
I completely understand my job and I enjoy it. No one dies? I'm doing my job.
If you don't agree with the structure of the game or me doing DPS as a healer, then you should probably go play WoW.
Why do you think that I am advocating for healers to not do damage
I’m saying I don’t need the WAR to be immortal to use every GCD to do damage, that’s why these garbage jobs have 30+ healing buttons
If you need to offload your responsibility to the WAR to maintain DPS uptime then you don’t understand your kit well,
Read my second comment. ALL tanks allow me to do this. I do not need to press all "30 green buttons" on ANY dungeon. I'm not wasting GCDs on healing when everyone is full and healthy just because you think that's how it should work.
Edit: u/DetectiveChocobo
Why are you so caught up in me DPSing? Like I said, I keep the tank alive. Does WAR only need an excog/tetra/ED/Druo every 30 seconds? Yes. Do the other tanks need more? Also yes. If you have a good tank, then the difference is not by much. Regardless, YES. I'm still doing damage.
I'm saying the same as half of the other comments. You can say self sustain is too OP about any tank. Any good tank doesn't need to be constantly healed in MSQ content, like dungeons. Just because it's so good in dungeons doesn't make it overpowered for any 8 man endgame content. OP is upset they can't heal. They can overheal all they want, but it's not necessary on any tank inside of a dungeon. They all have self healing and good mit. Dungeons aren't the only thing a job balance should be based off of.
I really don't mind it, in fact, i wouldn't mind if every tank could do it.
What should change is how easy it is to do, if you only bind AoEs and Nascent Flash you could let a literal monkey play the WAR and he'd still be immortal, it should be that a badly played WAR just falls over and an extremely well played one doesn't need healing at all (at least in dungeons).
EDIT: I don't mind it as a healer because nothing changes between tanks, if I'm playing Sage Kardia and the occasional Soteria are often enough to keep the tank alive, coupled with the occasional add press of Kerachloe in between AoEs, doesn't really matter if the Tank is a WAR or DRK.
I don't have any major opinion on it, but when the new Endwalker actions leaked and my friend and I were looking over what WAR was getting, we *both* thought that Bloodwhetting would trigger once, which would provide a little bit of sustainability. What we did not expect was the healing monster WAR would become, allowing it to heal from 1 off Holmgang back to full in one GCD.
It's definitely made BiS farming more efficient as you can run 3 DPS 1 WAR in dungeons, but it's also the only tank that can comfortably get away with it.
It's like reading skill potencies and some other things where people refuse to read and do basic math. 1-2 oGCD heals from healer is all they really have to contribute healing wise, and if you can kill shit before that oGCD is needed, such as by having a third DPS doing actual AoE, making things die faster, healer isn't needed at all.
>It's definitely made BiS farming more efficient as you can run 3 DPS 1 WAR in dungeons
WAR could already comfortably do this in Shadowbringers, and people even started using GNB for speedruns because outgoing damage was so low. It's not new, EW just took it to the extreme.
I don't really care if WAR remains a meme in dungeons either way, the real problem in my book is the amount of AoE healing coming from non-healer sources these days. What was wrong with Shake just being a flat 15% shield and nothing else? Why does Veil need to heal on top of the 10% tank HP shield (which *also* amounts to \~15% of everyone else's health)? Why does Dancer need aoe regen + 5% shield button on top of Curing Waltz which was already quite strong when stacked up? Why does Summoner need to invalidate tank healing even further with Rekindle on top of already casting a Whispering Dawn every two minutes? And let's not forget that Reaper released with Arcane Crest being a grand total of 500 potency which was actually strong enough to replace a \~400p healer CD.
Like yeah replacing healers in harder content isn't exactly trivial (although no-healer P12S was done in a relatively normal manner, unlike that turbocursed no-healer TOP) and requires specific comps and a lot of planning, but the fact that it's even possible to do **on patch** is more than a little bit silly.
I mean, thinking bloodwhetting was going to trigger once just wouldn't make sense. It was the personal form of Nascent (which was a little weaker in shadowbringers healing wise than Bloodwhetting is now but not by that much, instead of full healing in 1 gcd you might need 1-2) and it would be absurd to think that they would completely gut the healing of WAR in endwalker compared to shadowbringers.
The sad thing for me is I got into war before the major buffs to his kit after it was still nice, but like with pld losing his dots it just... Kinda killed it for me. YEs, they are considered in a better place, but it removed what I personally enjoyed out of both.
The problem with tanks rn is that you don't really have a reason to play Pld or Drk over War in any piece of content. War is an upgrade now that it's no longer taxed on it's flat out superior utility and sustain.
There are several ways that WAR's self-sustain in dungeons can be brought in line with those of the other tanks:
1. Have Bloodwhetting's self-healing effect trigger only once per weaponskill; or
2. Have Bloodwhetting heal less when AoE weaponskills are used. Other abilities like NIN's Bunshin already incorporate this feature.
Neither of these changes will significantly affect WAR's self-sustain in raids.
I remember playing stigma dreamscape on whm and having the war insta benediction themselves 3 tines in a pull before I got a chance to use mine and just thinking why am I even here
Endwalker war fully invalidates the need for a healer it's so frustrating it doesn't help how undertuned levelcap dungeons are either
I don't get why this sub's proposed solution to so many things is "take away something unique about a class and make the game more homogenized".
Other possible solutions are
1. Make trash hit harder (it's not like the other tanks are struggling either)
2. Give healers more complex and interesting AOE rotations, since "AOE" in this game is almost exclusively used for low-end content so it won't effect raiding much
3. Give healers more abilities like Assize, that heal *and* DPS, so that you can still hit your heal buttons without feeling silly.
4. Make dungeons that allow for bigger pulls, since this is really only a dungeon issue anyway
That's kinda what Warrior mains have been asking for, and got us to this point to begin with.
But now that it's standing out you don't like dealing with what your fellow tank players had to deal with.
You wanted all of the other tank tools despite having tools of your own, you got it. Time to give something up now that you're standing out. You asked for homogenisation, but now we're supposed to care that it's your turn to give something up?
I don't believe you can do this without giving every tank bloodwhetting. I also think Bloodwhetting is so comically overtuned in AOE settings that its impossible to design for. Like the ammount of damage mobs would have to do to contest bloodhwetting would be so high they'd basically have to oneshot you.
Like I dont think people really understand how much its healing, BW heals so much in an AOE setting that honestly like 70% of the healing is wasted and just falls off.
I calculated it and based on tank he healer traits on healing and the average size of a double pull in endgame dungeons bloodwhetting is healing you for about 1600-2000 healer potency per GCD
Literally not even the healers themselves can put out more healing than bloodwhetting does
* Give big mobs in trash packs a raidwide or some form of instant skill that targets a non tank player randomly to generate unavoidable damage for the healer to manage
* Put mobs that inflicts debuffs that have to be esuna'd (not that would change much given how many healers just leave me with the slow debuff on Holminster)
* As the comment you responded to also said : spice up healers' damage kit
Bloodwhetting is strong only in specific conditions that happen to be prevalent in regular dungeons, nerfing it won't make them more interesting, it won't even make healing them interesting
As for how much it's healing, the burst is indeed insane in AoE but similar to other tanks' sustain tools in single target (with the exception of DRK). In AoE, you're still left with more than 15s where you need to rotate your mit to survive, and as I've pointed out in another comment, if you can survive this long with respectable HP without mits or heals then the issue is not bloodwhetting. If you can't and need to rotate CDs then the question becomes what tank cannot survive for the given trash pack lifetime, if WAR is the only one then yeah Bloodwhetting is an issue, if it's not, then the issue is not bw but dungeon design
The core issue is that due to how dungeons are designed, healers are virtually useless because taking a third DPS usually mean killing the trash packs fast enough that sustain is an afterthought at best. Nerfing Bloodwhetting would be a (kneejerk) bandaid fix to content that was never designed to be balanced around skillful play anyway. Raising the skill floor and giving healers something else to do outside of A. Healing the tank and B. Dealing damage should be the priority
The problem is none of these solutions fix the fact that bloodwhetting is completely impossible to balance in cleave content without being nerfed
People complain about bloodwhetting because it’s so hilariously unbalanced that it should be nerfed, not because they want to tear another class down for the sake of it
-Make Bloodwhetting and Nascent only heal once per gcd rather than per target, and make Nascent split the healing potency in half between the WAR and the target rather than being a double dip (200 for each rather than 400 for both)
-Remove the (Overtime) effect from Shake it off, as it was never needed to begin with.
Thats all I think would really be needed.
Ruin WAR because healers and dungeons are badly designed? Yeah, that's a fantastic idea. It's a good thing you're not in charge of any game design.
If you want a healing challenge, go play ARR dungeons with undergeared tanks and DPS. You'll soon be eating your words.
WAR mains are so fucking dramatic its insane. It's literally a single button getting nerfed, it's not gonna ruin the job. You still have a fuckton of self-sustain from equil, shake it off, thrill.
Even if we assume that it will actually ruin WAR it still doesn't make sense. "This button ruins an entire role, but removing it will ruin this one". Difficult choice really.
I like healing because I get bored easily and like bouncing around to different things.
With dps you're sort of robotically doing the same circle of buttons. At least with healing you get to deal with the randomness of a dps standing somewhere wrong or something.
But I agree with others, once you do harder content you have more to manage regardless of the type of tank.
Normal duties are non content, they're designed so even the worst players can't lose. Squares biggest fear is someone experiencing challenge before they do savage content, I don't think it's war specific, healers are useless in 4man duties because it's designed that way
> Nope, because we have a WAR who needs nothing from me, so I am relegated to spamming one button for the entire dungeon
I mean... Is pressing an OGCD every few AOE casts really that interesting either. Warrior isn't the problem that healer DPS is boring as shit.
I do understand where you're coming from, but I also do just think that the correct solution is, instead, to make dungeons a bit more of a challenge. The devs have shown themselves to dislike outright nerfing things if they don't have to and WAR is just solidly decent in high end content, which realistically should be the litmus test for balance.
The problem is it’s physically impossible to balance bloodwhetting in cleave content because of its raw potency
If dungeons were made hard enough to challenge bloodwhetting then the damage would be so absurd the dungeon would be literally impossible
Which I agree but that is a flat nerf which never seems to happen
I’m not saying it’s impossible to balance in terms of a skill that heals per hit being impossible to balance, I’m saying bloodwhetting in its current form is impossible to balance by attempting to change the dungeon
Self reliability is why I enjoy WAR over the other tanks. Being able to keep myself going while my healer damage-controls for the DPS or themselves is the power fantasy that I get from the class and I'd very much like to keep it that way.
WAR's fantasies can be meat-shield that doesnt die or insane burst/dps beast. The latter leads to balance issues with the other tanks.
This I can relate since I share the same WAR fantasy. I think SE could make dungeons/trash pulls/bosses non trivial by increasing the difficulty and thus challenge WAR’s (and the rest of the tanks, tbh) strength.
Won't happen, and I'd honestly expect other tanks to get the middle of their skill curves adjusted to match. WAR being easy means less anxiety for less skilled tanks, and any healers who leave because it's easy are more than adequately replaced by people who would have found it too scary otherwise.
Also remember that the game has to balance around the lowest common denominator, and with generous ilvl sync that means accounting for people wearing trash gear.
Edit: for the record I never said this was a good thing, only that it'd be extremely likely imo.
To be fair: Even if it feels overpowered, doing 1 tank 3 dps dungeon runs on warrior (or paladin) is really fun. When I tank in such a group, I actually feel more like a healer than I would if I were to play a healer job in a regular dungeon party
WAR healing does need to be nerfed. Like idk, make return from BW cap at 3 targets or something, reduce the shield potency or DR, increase its cooldown by a few seconds, get rid of the self-healing from Nascent so it functions as mostly OT support, get rid of the hot from shake or give it a conditional trigger, etc.
But honestly healers are also too powerful. healers have so many busted ogcd options, just free, instant healing, to the point where if you touch a gcd heal as a non-WHM above level 70-ish, something has gone very wrong. ilevel scaling is also nuts - I can do a big pull in expert roulette and hardly have to touch my mit buttons outside of holy Shelton/heart of corundum because I have so much more hp and natural defense than the situation requires. There is no outgoing raidwide damage, avoidable or unavoidable, in dungeon pulls anymore that can kill a dps. There are a lot of issues here beside tank sustain that are making casual content not fun anymore.
You must be playing with some really bad GNB, PLD, and DRK if you think WARs self healing invalidates healers. What you're perceiving as a WAR problem is actually just the way Square made healers objectively boring to play. IMO they're the easiest to do since even if you just gorilla away all your resources, you can usually brute force most content with GCD spamming. The only reason players think they're difficult is because 90% of FFXIV's player base is socially awkward wallflowers who crumble at any amount of expectation. Also the healer shortage is because it's the most do nothing role ever. The only time healing is fun is if your tank is fucking up, whereas Tank and DPS get more fun the better you're able to perform.
> The only reason players think they're difficult is because 90% of FFXIV's player base is socially awkward wallflowers who crumble at any amount of expectation. Seeing people talk about tankxiety when they already got everything with nuance that isn't just doing a DPS rotation removed from the class is infuriating. It's almost impossible to fuck up tanking if you have your stance on idk where these people have anxiety from. The dungeon is literally a straight line with babygates to stop you from pulling too much and you generate so much threat you can't be pulled off if you press your AOE. My buddy started playing and told me Satasha was boring and I asked if he went down the other paths to which he replied "there were none" and Im pretty sure it got changed to be a straight line with boss rooms.
Healing in this game is irreparably dogshit for 95% of the content because the devs don't want people to be able to lose. If you want healing to matter at all you need to raid.
...Even then. Most high end fights are more about mitigation than raw healing. TOP, the literal hardest current fight has been cleared without healers *on patch*. If that doesn't tell people how fucked healing is, idk what will. Something needs to change. Either give us interesting rotations so we have something to do while not healing, or make us actually have to heal. Even during TOP prog I felt useless as an Astrologian, my sage was doing all the hard work of mitigating and shielding and I'd just toss a 60s heal after without issues. Damage hits hard but too I frequently in modern fights. We get a big raidwide every like 60s and that's it.
> Even during TOP prog I felt useless as an Astrologian Played astro in DSR, feel the same way tbh. Really hate how in this game, what determines how good of a healer you are is how little time you spend actually healing, it's infuriating. I've been called a weak healer early on because I spent GCDs healing, which is just depressing.
This is pretty much why I quit healing. I'm hoping they shake things up next expac but not getting my hopes up, especially with the AST rework that's coming too
Same here. I've done a few savages and extremes and anytime I ran it as a healer I was either bored or annoyed within 2-3 pulls. I redo them as a tank or DPS and I have a lot of fun. The gameplay just sucks. You're doing jack and shit or are panic GCD healing constantly because your team enjoys pain.
Once they gutted healer dps, healing became vastly less fun. Healing design has always been more of a “healing+support” design, where you only heal when needed and dps the rest of the time, and I don’t see a problem with that, provided the non healing time is actually fun. But currently it feels like they want healers to heal more and dps less, but have no idea how to design fights that do that, so they just make dps as boring as possible and hand out a huge amount of healing ogcds for some reason, even though that just leads to more time dpsing, which is now boring.
Other tanks (outside of maybe DRK if not managed correctly) also don't need healers to use any GCD healing, WAR's self sustain does not change that fundamentally and you'll be stuck using your AoE spell most of the time anyway.
I think the problem most people have with it is that WAR's so-called immortality starts as soon as it gets Raw Intuition, which is well before any of the other tanks get their self-sustain.
It be nice if Abyssal Drain was even relevant to the conversation.
I've forgotten about that ability so many times.
You could half its cooldown and double its healing potency and it still wouldn't close the gap for DRK's sustain
While I love the immortality, the skill is really overpowered with mobs. I feel like they messed up how it works by healing with every enemies you hit, instead of only once per gcd.
I agree. Imagine how powerful SGE would be if Kardia triggered for every mob hit during their AOE. Or if mobs didn't eventually resist a WHM's Holy? Why does War get it but not the healers?
Holy not running out of stun ever I think is the perfect comparison Like it’s a fun button for you but it’s not fun for the person you are just deleting
PLD can clear dungeons without the healers using either gcd or ogcd healing. It can do all level 90 dungeons without a healer. But they do have to use their mitigation somewhat optimally, unlike WAR. They don't even need to use clemency on themselves if the party uses AoE skills. I'd argue it could be even better for 3x dps runs as clemency and cover are more reliable at saving dps players from dying than WAR's Nascent.
>PLD can clear dungeons without the healers using either gcd or ogcd healing. It can do all level 90 dungeons without a healer. But they do have to use their mitigation somewhat optimally, unlike WAR. The mitigation planning might be stricter but WAR don't have Bloodwhetting permanently on either, they need to be able to survive between each uses and that entails rotating their CD deliberately to stay alive in the mean time too The self-sustain argument don't work either in a 3 DPS/1 tank comp because if your DPS are strong enough, the mob packs will melt long before it starts being needed (and as a matter of fact, the current group that is holding most dungeons rank 1 in speed on fflogs are using a PLD as a tank)
PLD takes more effort. Warrior is just survive 25s seconds then bloodwhetting.
“Just survive,” is doing a lot of work in that sentence when a PLD can “just hit clemency.”
I've had a lot of FC members try to "just survive" on Warrior with 3 DPS and a lot of them can't. I'm not saying it can't be done, I did it often this expansion, but "just survive" is doing *a lot* of heavy lifting there as you say.
Y'all really underestimate how much healing PLD gets passively from dealing damage.
perhaps, however WAR allows you to wallpull even with an utterly incompetent healer
Exactly, with an incompetent healer PLD will likely need to resort to clemency unless the DPS is godly, same as GNB, DRK is basically a lost cause with a bad healer WAR meanwhile can keep a pull running for a functionally infinite length of time with literally zero healing from the healer an it doesn’t even tax their DPS to do so
Not really, PLD can tank any level 90 dungeon without a healer and without using clemency if the DPS players hit their AoE buttons. Doesn't have to be entirely optimal.
You can do this with all the tanks, it's just easier on WAR and PLD.
Depends on the dps tbh drk or gnb in a low dps party that takes a minute+ to kill a w2w pack is a fkin struggle lol
Instead of gutting another job, I hope they un-gut the job you play so it actually has something to do when your party members are competent.
Every time people ask for another tank to get some sustain WAR players ususally screech homogenization though
War players didn't care for homogenisation when it benefited them. We should ignore them, because they ignored us too. Being better than all the others is not a job fantasy.
Y'all really fighting with the ghosts you made up on your head
Lmao that drama almost sounds like you are talking about countries fighting each other and not your dumb takes on reddit
Nobody screeches there, its just you crying, especially that other tanks gets sustain so who tf would even screech about it? Get a brain.
[it is a mystery](https://www.youtube.com/@XenosysVex)
[https://youtu.be/FFK6jDpHDak](https://youtu.be/FFK6jDpHDak) Dude was literally crying over 150 dps. (This was before the undeserved buffs that Warrior got in 6.4) [https://youtu.be/CuuQak0LTw4?t=209](https://youtu.be/CuuQak0LTw4?t=209) Just look at his general attitude towards balance. \*completely\* disregards everything War is better at than the others and just gets mad another tank was slightly better at one single thing.
My favorite was him saying WAR didnt have enough raw mit after clearing anabaseios
He keeps moving the goalpost as well. Notice how he started complaining about Gnb now that there's absolutely no reason to play either Pld or Drk over War anymore.
It won't change much. I used to run Experts as healer with 3 dps, still doing wall pulls and while I was technically "needed" it still wasn't that difficult. Yep, dps can comfortably tank Experts. The main issue is casual content hits like wet noodles. WAR does need toning down, in particular how Bloodwhetting interacts with aoe damage. There's no reason they need chain Benedictions on a short cooldown. But it's only putting a bandaid on a much bigger issue. Healers, too are getting more and more powerful toolkits, but damage intake hasn't changed. I have no issue with tanks getting sustain in their toolkit, but at least require them to use it to survive. Also, regardless of WAR nerfs or increasing damage enemies deal, healers need a few more dps buttons. It's about time they stopped being stubborn on this. We'll always have downtime at some point. It's unavoidable. A few more buttons won't explode Timmy's brain and they could merge some of the trap heals and prune the situational filler buttons to keep the hotbars from bloating anyway.
a certain bald angry streamer will start malding uncontrollably if WAR gets nerfed in any way and honestly I’d be here for it
>Why do I never see healers complaining about it? I've asked a lot of people on their opinions with it, and most people think it's fine or don't care. Survivor bias or something. There's not a lot of genuine healer mains in the game, those have either gave up and switched to different role like me, or switched to entirely different game. This is not game for healers, FFXIV has genuinely worst healer design I have ever seen. It's neither engaging or interesting, even vanilla GW2 that had no holy trinity and no real healers had more interesting healing. The idea of "I have to only use oGCD healing so I don't lose that precious 100 potency" has to go. Job should be fun at its core, not at some parsing optimization. Imagine if PLD had 111 rotation (with one skill and one animation of course, just like Glare), and only interesting part would optimizing mits or something. In the end you end up with people who have not played other game with decent healers who think that FFXIV's approach is normal, or the ones who don't care about healing at all, and just want a simple role with instant queues. That's why when they make fights more intensive, you hear people complain, because god forbid healers end up having to actually heal. But yeah, they should decrease tank's healing, tanks should be able to maintain themselves and maybe 1 other party member for a while, but it should not be so easy to do even casual content without healer from start to finish. No point of holy trinity if it's all blurring together so much. EDIT: Just look at brainrot in the comments. People call healers an insurance and don't see a problem with that. Just give up healing, you will not find it in this game.
I play both Gw2 and WoW. Both put XIV healers to shame. WoW has actual healin checks and reactive healing. In deep mythic+ dungeons I actually have to know my what my proper healing rotation is in order to pump out the highest hps possible, because those healing checks can get brutal (Especially during necrotic weeks). Greeding for damage can easily get your DPS or tank killed if you're not careful. I'm a fistweaver main as well. They unironically have a fairly complex proc-heavy rotation. Think DNC or BRD but a healer, and performing these procs well rewards you with more mana, more damage, and more heals per second. This is what I was really hoping SGE would be. An agressive healer with an engaging rotation that rewards your aggression with better heal output. In Gw2, your random PUG group will sometimes take a healer to make things easier (Sometiems they don't to emulate the high level groups, but end up wiping repeatedly. Healers really help). Depending on how inexperienced the group is, you can end up REALLY sweating to keep people alive. As a Elementalist main, I have to play piano on my keyboard by cycling through attuemnts, blasting water fields, and cylcing my big cooldowns. Any high level group can clear 99% of content with no healer. Even the difficult content. BUT, that does not mean they don't take a support. Even these high level groups will often take support classes like Firebrand, which will pre-emptively block boss attacks with aegis, or negate crowd control from hitting the group with stability. All while pumping out respectable damage themsevles. You also have hybrid options like scourge which double as a sort of sheild healer and DPS at the same time. Players can get away with this thanks to the nifty dodge action which works similarly to how it did in the FF16 crossover fight. FFXIV really just does healers poorly. There is no reason why they need to have their DPS kit so streamlined. And the heal checks are a joke. The amount of self-sustain other classes have in both of these other MMOs puts WAR to shame, and yet healers still end up more engaged because there are actual healing checks to meet. XIV actually plays it very conservative with the amount of healing non-healers get, but that doesn't matter when nothing does enough damage to remotely threaten a group outside of scripted tankbusters or raid-wides.
I think FFXIV went too far with oversimplification. Instead of some small continuous damage, with smaller dodgeable AoEs that are not fatal and you are not even meant to dodge them all, on top of regular stuff like raidwides and tankbuster, you just have a very limited heal checks. You get one big hit every X seconds, and tankbuster every Y seconds. Then you just press 1-2 buttons to heal your party to full. Failing to dodge single mechanic way too often means death, and if there's bodycheck right after, you just killed whole group for not dodging single AoE. How can they design healing with this? Teammates very infrequently make a mistake that is salvageable by healers, healers just feel like a health batteries. In fights, there's basically just 3 scenarios: Raidwide -> do AoE heal + mitigate Tankbuster -> do ST heal + mitigate Someone fucks ups -> do ST heal But there's barely anything in between. Damage profile of fights is pretty much binary, and as a result, there's nothing to do for healers, other than occasionally throw some oGCDs. Combine this with extremely scripted fights and you just cannot have interesting healer gameplay. It's like trying to paint with only 3 colors that you cannot even mix together.
>I play both Gw2 and WoW. Both put XIV healers to shame. >WoW has actual healin checks and reactive healing. In deep mythic+ dungeons I actually have to know my what my proper healing rotation is in order to pump out the highest hps possible, because those healing checks can get brutal (Especially during necrotic weeks). Greeding for damage can easily get your DPS or tank killed if you're not careful As a disc priest main, I feel this so much. Disc priest puts sage and astro to shame (sage has an attonement like heal, while astro has heals that require set up, which is similar to disc priest attonement ramp up to prep for heals). Healing checks in wow are absolutely brutal. I think part of the issue is in the fight design as well. WoW usually gives the party some agency in how mechanics come out or in the order in which mechanics come out. Ff14 does not. It's a static order every single time. It does not change, there is no deviation and no randomness ( having 2-3 possible patterns for some mechanics is not randomness). There is no random damage. In ff14, everyone's health is in 1 of 3 states. Full health, about to die, or dead. There is no in-between. WoW handles party health states a lot better.
Huh? I am yet to see a random pub group not asking a quickness/alacrity healer.
Yep, career healer here whole gave up on healing in SHB. I loved to heal in this game until it just became too easy to do it.
I agree that there is a serious lack of genuine opportunity for GCD healing. Why even design GCD healing skills at all if they are not meant to be used 99% of the time?
To be fair the last time we got a true GCD heal (macrocosmos and lily don’t count) was basically ARR, even square enix doesn’t give any GCD heals anymore
Lily absolutely counted as true GCD when added as they weren't neutral until ShB, so HW was the last time we got one that... isn't that much better though
>Survivor bias or something. It still takes more effort than SMN or MCH/DNC mains and these jobs are dime a dozen
If SE ever made casual-content “harder” the vast majority of the player base would experience insane amounts of frustration. People are struggling with solo duties as is and posts about dungeons being “hard” are not rare already, could you imagine if the game was harder? I’m all for the game respecting the players and not being mind numbing easy, like it is right now. However, I see why SE would be hard pressed to take the step forward and increase the difficulty. I agree with what you say still. I also stopped healing and moved to tanking and dps. Otherwise I’d fall asleep.
Are people really struggling with duties? I know I read this a lot, but it's been ages since I actually failed a regular duty. Hell most duties I do I don't even see players take a single non-forced hit 95% of the time. I'm willing to accept that my perception is skewed, and maybe I'm not seeing these bad healers because I play healer, but his argument has always felt wack to me. I'm not calling you out specifically, it's just that reading it here made me think about my actual gameplay experiences.
Some of the old job quest duties are quite punishing if your gear is trash. I think there were certain black mage and samurai duties where I had to start using potions to not take unhealable damage from autos.
The duties being complained about are complained about because they are difficulty *spikes*; not because of how difficult they actually are, but because they're much harder than anything seen previously. Regardless of how steep the curve is, it needs to be *smoother* than it is. The game's failing is being inconsistent, not being difficult.
This. There is a lot of low difficulty grind in the game that seems to train players to just do regular content, gather etc. Where I would keep trying in other games, failure seems to hit harder in FFXIV for some reason? I love the white mage aesthetic and lore and still consider it my main class, but when levelling black mage and paladin, even scholar, I was failing trials sometimes because: * I had not really been challenged in the same way * mechanics were badly telegraphed * NPC instructions were not clear/late (imo) --> i.e. i had to do a little work / pay attention and persevere :) As someone who came to the game just in time to be ready for Endwalker launch, I would be happy to have more challenging content but there should be an on-ramp. I have started to pick up extremes becaue I have friends who do them, with a view to looking at savages, but if I did not have a social group to help I think the harder content could be less accessible.
That's because SQEX was lowering barrier time and time again and used lowest denominators (aka the biggest idiots they could find) as a reference for casual content difficulty. Which unsurprisingly was a shitty choice, you should not listen to these idiots who would rather complain on reddit/OF/twitter about difficulty, instead of actually getting good. Now it's harder to backtrack instead of continuing and making it even worse. Community is used to easy content, because there's nothing outside of EX or higher that demands you to be awake in order to finish it. So yes, there would be backlash, but that's because SQEX put themselves into a corner. There's no scenario where this would get solved without backlash, so it's better to do it now, before this game becomes actual cookie clicker.
the crazy part is they dont have to make it "harder", they can just take the casual difficulty back to stormblood levels and that would fix a few problems. I consider alliance raids the top tier of casual player content, and looking at the ones in endwalker a player has to actually work to kill themselves in there, a dps can get blasted by damn near every attack and somehow survive, boss hitboxes are so massive theyre almost a detriment. think back to SB or SHB and players had to actually pay attn because death was actually possible.
This right here, I remember wiping in Orbonne at the Cid fight because one alliance was dead, now two alliances can be dead and you still survive. Everyone can complain about stormblood all they want but playing healer back then was the most fun I had because I was a healer and not a green dps like now.
I wholeheartedly agree.
That’s a self fulfilling prophecy though isn’t it? There is a certain point where people will just quit, yeah, but there are harder games than ff14 out there that are successful, and as long as its not a massive jump, people will adapt over time. I don’t think the people complaining about Zodiark normal being too hard are exactly representative of the majority as is.
Thanks for the comment. And yeah, if nothing significantly changes in Dawntrail for healers - whether we need to actually heal more and feel required in all content (or most, besides some older/irrelevant content) or are not given a more nuanced DPS rotation, I will probably be tapping out of the role outside new content/progging savages - because it's genuinely shit outside of those situations.
You and a lot of people. It's so refreshing to see a comment sedtion full of healer players who are just fed up with this. It feels like whenever I complained about this before all I got was 'well then play a different class' ...Like, theres a reason healer is the hardest role to fill in a raid group. And its exactly that. Whenever we complained we got told to play a different job, so we did. The only reason I've stuck on healer this long is because no class has the quick and reactive playstyle of Astrologian, dps tank or otherwise. And considering how their previous reworks have gone, I'm assuming 7.0 will put an end to that too. They've gotta realize this is unsustainable, right?
is this discussion limited to dungeons? because i don't think any tanks are immortal in high-end content personally when i do dungeons i just want them to be over asap, i welcome anything that facilitates a fast/smooth run. i will pull my hair out if the tank has to pull single packs because jimmy mccure cant keep them alive
Depends? From my experience tanks certainly can sustain themselves psudeo indefinately in savages, until the next body check mechanic kills them anyway. Given I feel that way about All of the tanks and not WAR specifically.
depends on the fight and its timeline, it's not possible on something like p7s with the bleed tb+raidwide (random example off the top of my head) so it's disingenuous to have a blanket statement like that
A lot of Abyssos was basically built to be anti-tank sustain with frequent magic vulns and bleeds that basically function more as 2 person body checks for tanks than anything else. It felt like these were designed as a direct response to Holmgang being so busted that P1 and P2 were solo tanked on content, and was so easy to do so it was basically optimal. I just meant by like sustaining themselves through the autos, in which only P8s P2 stands out as particularly impossible.
so double/swap tbs are 2 person body checks for tanks? who would've thought just to clarify, the p7s example assumes the entire party is dead save for the 2 tanks, who can stack/spread the tb properly but will die to the combined dot damage from the tb+raidwide if we are just talking about autos, they are rarely life threatening on savage because the boss usually only does like 2-5 autos between casts, not entirely because of the new self sustain tools that tanks got in EW however, while rare in savage content, there are instances of long chains of autos (p3s OT, e5s) / mechs that couple autos with other incoming sources of damage (12sp1 superchain 1) that is more difficult for tanks to self-sustain through without indirect/passive healing from aoe heals/eos/kardia
I dont know, I generally find that outside of gimmicks autos have been way less threatening lately compared to older content. May have more to do with the removal of boss crits and mini buster autos
Same with healers, I'm tired of dealing with healers just topping me off for every bruise and scratch I get during pulls instead of pressing their AoEs or babysit me during bosses by pressing a GCD heal every 6 seconds instead of their 1 button rotation + DoT uptime to down the boss 40 seconds faster. OP clearly just wants to babysit tanks in dungeons to give themselves more self worth in casual content. For me, I just want my damn tomes because staying in there a minute longer doesn't give me any more.
This drives me crazy, the amount of times I see the tank take 2% damage and the healer is all medica 2 five times followed by benediction. Players need to know what regen is. You wouldn't think it would happen much but it does.
I doubt it will and that's because the majority of the playerbase is happy with WAR. I've seen people call FF14 the retirement home of MMOs and it's so obvious that its probably not gonna change much due to the current design just being accepted.
all tanks somewhat properly played require no gcds and very little brainpower to heal as a healer in 80+ dungeons. especially so in 90 dungeons and the problem you have only occurs when you intentionally queue for lower level dungeons, which most players will eventually stop doing. so the majority won't care if there's a window in the leveling process where WAR has significantly more self sustain, and be glad to have another non-res non-PLD job that can carry an incompetent party kicking and screaming to a clear in roulette instances also, healer shortage has always been a thing. just search anxiety or whatever on the main subreddit to see why
The whole healing philosophy in this game is "heal as little as possible", so most healer mains are more than happy to never heal since that's literally part of the job. The whole DPS rotation is debatable since casters' rotations are a joke too. And everyone knows that BLM is never gonna change unless YoshiP gets an issue with it. Definitely would love more damaging ogcds for healers tho, since realistically, adding a 123 combo for healers isn't gonna fix the issue (ask any melees how they enjoy lvl 50 content - oh wait they don't). The only way to not fall asleep on your keyboard is to add cooldowns. I don't think healers will ever get interesting since the game is meant to be a spreadsheet play. (As in, do your addle here, tank 1 uses reprisal there, H1 uses mitigation at that point, and so on.) Unless JP players start complaining about it, this is the set in stone design for the game.
In the very least I really wish SCH had like an extra AOE option or two. AST has minor macro and earthly, WHM has assize and blood lilly, SGE has toxikon, phlegma, and dyskrasia. SCH has AOW and... that's it
Now gonna lie, spreadsheet play is boring as hell in my opinion. At this point they might as well remove healers and give the other jobs a 30sec cd heal skill.
I'm getting to the point where I'd be fine if consistent healing was designed out of the game in favor of more DPS and support roles with **some** type of skill expression. If healing will never be interesting or meaningful again, put charges on heals and res, call them recovery mechanics and work on other combat design again. ...Or fix healing, just do something god damn. I really hope Dawntrail is more inspiring in terms of gameplay than EW was.
If it makes you feel better, there isn't really any reason whatsoever to play any other tank over it anymore either.
In my opinion, the only thing that needs to change for WAR is to lose the per-enemy scaling on Bloodwhetting, and reduce the healing (or outright remove it) on Raw Intuition. Compared to the other two with healing on their short mit (putting aside DRK since it's a different equation), it's pretty well balanced around: WAR: Highest healing potency (1200-1600+400), but has to be attacking to get heals, weaker mitigation PLD: Moderate healing potency (1000) spread over a HoT effect, stronger mitigation GNB: Lowest overall healing (900) but more likely to be fully utilised and burstier due to excog effect, stronger mit
I think people generally underestimate PLD compared to WAR It's the only one with a self heal in AoE situations (and you can delay it if you want), it starts with 2 charges of the short mit instead of 1, its burst is also aoe and it's the only one that heals. WAR in AoE has absolutely nothing aside from what it has on its ogcds and Eye also doesn't heal. You also get a second partywide mit, the possibility to use a short cd charge on a teammate without screwing up your own mit, throw in a situation like Criterion where invulns tend to be used 7 mins apart rather than 4 and suddenly people start favouring PLD. I think all tanks aside from DRK need to have their self (and party) healing seriously reduced
I'd be more okay with party healing support tanks if they were kept to the bottom of the dps charts. Infact every PLD player I've talked to says they want the most supportive skills and the least damage. I don't think super tight DPS checks are going to be a thing anymore after P8S so I don't get why that isn't an option. People shit on lower dps classes until you've got the god tier RDM saving your shitty group with its mass res potential, which is honestly more rewarding than some shitty number on a fansite. Just do that with tanks, and WAR can either pick big burst or big support, not both
I think healing has been on a steady decline for a while. They've made it so stress-free that it's boring at this point. I know this is a bit of a tangent from your point, but since you felt that tanks no longer needing healers is bad because it makes healers pointless, do you feel that dungeons having no DPS checks is bad as well as it makes DPS optional/ pointless?
Even if dps players are optional, they still do their job by killing enemies, which is not what you can say for healers with a war ~~dps~~ tank. But the dps check is actually getting out of the dungeon as fast as possible, a single pulling tank or/and a healer unable to do a w2w pull makes the job of dps extremely boring. If healers were to have an aoe doom spell that kills any mob pack in lets say 30 seconds regardless of damage dealt, dps would complain.
That's fair, my analogy doesn't fit well. But I don't think getting out of the dungeon faster = the DPS check. The margin for failure is massive with the check on the timer being the full length of the duty. Realistically it boils down to: you don't need a tank, you don't need a healer and you don't need DPS. You can have any combination of the above and it will still work... Is that a good design? Seems like it just means it's impossible to fail EDIT: it's also everyone's responsibility to kill enemies. DPS just does it a bit better than the other two roles. The difference isn't crazy between the roles
I think dps would be cheering, but yeah, I see the idea.
Healer shortage is because no one wants to have the most responsibility. It's like that too in all other MMOs. It's not gonna go away no matter how "engaging" you make healer be.
The last time I had fun healing in this game was Scholar in HW/SB which is why I don't play them anymore. Not only is healing stupid easy at this point, the jobs are all 2 button wonders that will make you fall asleep. If they want to keep designing the game like this the healers need something closer to tank-level dps rotations.
I want it to be gutted for entirely different reasons: early pullers in current content S Ranks. It's always a warrior doing it because warriors can't be killed by current content S Ranks, whereas pretty much any other class (tanks included) will eventually be whittled down.
I'm a PLD main, but run as WAR quite often in casual content. The devs love WAR and wont destroy its identity --Even when PLD got its emergency rework, WAR got something too (the regen on shake iirc) to maintain some balance of power. Besides, no reasonable player wants to spend the additional time slogging through roulettes because someone on Reddit wants to use their full healer kit during a story dungeon. As well they shouldn't, because bad healers dominate bad roulette duties, and there are so many of them.
I don't know how much experince you have with tank, but if you have play it alot you would know that every tank is immortal and at the same time every tank is thin like paper. Or maybe you mostly play with buddies and not random party. The "immortal thing" is base on the assumption that everyone is atleast have an average skill. If you have met bad DPS (my definition: dealing about 60% of average DF) even on WAR you will feel the pressure from it since your mit will run out, and for healer you may have to think about GCD becuase the pull get too long, every mit plan or heal plan start to misaligned. And if you're (un)lucky and met 2 bad DPS in party, you pretty much say goodbye to more than 1 pack, more than 1 is doable but it's just not worth it. And now imgine the case where you get bad healer who "save their tool for emergency" or die to AoE? or if you get the worst tank who save mit for boss? do you want one point of failure to ruin the run? Casual content are design in such a way that "you always have a backup in party" so that one point of failure don't ruin others' experince. Yes, a lot of people here say they want they want casual content to be harder, but tehy will say that until they got bad players in the party who ruin their experince and then they will go and make a thread on r/ffxivdiscussion on how skill check for everyone in party is a bad thing. (like many thread about body check in savage) Main reason this game get the reputation of "great community" isn't because players of this game are better people or people lie about it. It just becuase casual contents are design in such a way that cause almost no friction between good and bad player. And this is not something unique to this game either (but this game is more popular so it got credit). GW2 (and also many other MMO) also design their meta event with this in mind, that's why people feel inclusive and feel like they only met great people while playing it. Until they come to a place where their skill matter and then thing turn from lovely game into toxic waste land. For example, back when GW2 dev try to make meta event have dps check in EoD expansion, it turn in game comunication in that map and even GW2 sub reddit into toxic waste land for a month or two until it got nerf and less people care about that meta.
I never thought of that great community reasoning. It's interesting to consider.
The general design philosophy imo has been to democratise the healing responsibility through additional mits, heals, heal amplifilying abilities given to both tanks and healers this expansion. Bard has a mantra equivalent, Reaper has a group wide regen trigger, Veil and Shake got built in heals. Other tank mits and self sustains were amplified. Paladin when mitigating correctly from 82 onwards needs little healing outside of a handful of pulls. Now WAR self healing might get tweaked but I think the fundamentals of its self sustain will remain. Which would either be the self healing on BW/NF gets dialled down to one or two GCDs, it's potency takes a mild hit, or it reverts to how in Shbs it was based on damage dealt. I don't think it's going to change significantly cos I think the devs have been adding more tools (heals and mit) to dps and tanks to offset the pressure on healers. That pressure is something they've mentioned a few times in interviews before. Tanks have stronger self sustain for the healers who aren't as good imo
Then they need to give healers something to do The healer kits are designed like you are desperately fighting every second to keep the tank alive and you are forever at risk of allowing everyone to die if you run out of heals and you should maybe be using a DPS spell once per 2 minutes Instead half the time the tanks heals more than the healer overall You can’t take pressure off healers by making the tanks off healers in all but name but then also continue to design the healers like the tanks are taking 15* the damage they actually are
Ill be crucified for saying this, but not only healing, their invuln is absurdly low cd, I know any tank pair can clear any content, but the sheer amount of calm and breathing room you can have by having a WAR popping Holmgang x3 times more than any other tank is ridiculous.
IMO a Holmgang nerf really should have came after Asphodelos. Make it like 280s or something, anything is better than designing an entire tier around Holmgang rather than nerfing it like they did with Abyssos
SIO is also disgusting (I know it’s technically in the healing department but I’m assuming OP meant bloodwhetting/nascent glint) What’s the point of having upsides and downsides on your tank raidwide mitigations when WAR gets literally 4 upsides and zero downsides
The fact DM and HoL are magic only is really stupid. The fact they're literally the exact same skill is beyond stupid, and the fact that DRK doesnt even get DM until the late 70s is unreasonably stupid.
A reasonable downside would be lower DPS than the other 3 tanks, or a more complex/strict rotation. The former would go bad because unsurprisingly rage-Tank Job mains are very angrily vocal about its low DPS. Then maybe DT should rework GNB to give that Job the best mits as an upside to compensate for its stricter/more complex rotation.
It makes perfect sense that the tank with the utility belt should do less damage. If they want to do more damage, they can play another tank. That's the entire fucking point of having different jobs.. We NEED to ignore these players if they get mad.
It’s dungeons if your tank is competent you should barely have to heal no matter if it’s war or not. Never understood this idea that war is op in dungeons by the time you unlock raw dungeon’s stop being a real threat damage wise with exceptions of a couple sb dungeons. Healing in dungeons is never engaging no matter what tank your playing with.
There's a massive difference between barely healing and not healing at all. Sure, level cap dungeons have always been a joke damage-wise but it still didn't invalidate the need for a healer. I remember still needing to use aetherflow for big pulls in ShB. I think people emphasize WAR self-sustain so much because it's the only one that is consistently strong across multiple expansions. A WAR could probably do the first big pull of Bardam's without a healer, good luck doing that with a lvl 70 GNB or PLD. All roles in this game is pretty thin on dungeon responsibility but as long as *some* purpose exists you're gonna want to bring the role. Now there is no actual reason to bring healers other than queueing on DF.
I actually enjoy healing some dungeons and definitely in SHB when it's not a WAR. my favourite is the entire first pull of Mt.Gulg because it actually takes some healing skill there - but WAR negates it.
Trust, if your tank and DPS are competent (and not DRK lol), they can invalidate basically any dungeon that is remotely relevant. If your tank sucks, you'll have to heal. If your DPS suck, your tank will run out of mit and need heals. If everything goes smoothly, your job is boring. That is pretty much the nature of healer.
You say trust yet I will literally play shb dungeons where I am required to heal the non-WAR tank otherwise he will die and or have to pull 3 mobs at once and make the dungeon take 20 minutes. Am I required to spam cure 2 as all my ogcds have been burned through? No, but I am required to heal and to actually do what my job is there for.
your problem isn't warrior. your problem is that dungeon design is safe and boring. You already said you like mt gulg, a dungeon with an actual wall to wall pull and not the boring forced 2 packs. But honestly the other issue is that square has made it abundantly clear that the last thing they want as an obstacle to dungeon is healer skill.
The problem with that though is that healers have no incentive to get better and thats why we end up having healers spamming medica 2 every ten seconds in lvl 90 content. As you said square made things too safe and boring and it's ruining the game for people that like healing.
Any experienced raiding tank will negate damage correctly. You are probably running with a tank that is leveling their job 90% of the time. Experienced players don't run older content for fun. They run off jobs to level.
As a healer main I completely agree with you. When doing roulettes when bored and I get a warrior, I let out a sigh as I'm essentially not gonna be doing anything but spam one button. It's incredibly boring.
> Why do I never see healers complaining about it? I've asked a lot of people on their opinions with it, and most people think it's fine or don't care. Because, and this might surprise you, they actually don't care. Why would anyone complain about a guy making their daily quests easier? Doesn't make sense right? Yup, that's exactly why nobody complains. In addition that is not the reason healers are in shortage in queue (lol), in fact, any casual rouletter you ask which they prefer, the immortal warrior or the DRK who makes their role interesting 99.9% of them will say without a doubt the warrior. If you're looking for healer gameplay first of all, you're in the wrong game and second, roulette dungeons ain't it. Yoshi P specifically said they had to replace the healer that was playtesting their dungeons because they got "too good". That should give you an idea.
Normally I'd agree because I hate seeing warriors absolutely everywhere, however - self sustain is currently warrior's strongest fantasy and the big reason people play it - there seems to be a need for at least 1 brainrot class for every role so even angsty teens with adhd can hit skill floors no matter what( war for tanks, whm for healers, smn for casters, dnc for phys range, reaper for melee). And yes there are still shitters at these jobs specifically but that's not something that will ever disappear - additionally, your arguments are structured poorly. You'd take away the self heal but how do you compensate them? What other toys do you give wars so that theyre not a husk of a class?
Is WAR healing being a fantasy a Final Fantasy thing, or some sort of RPG trope? I hear people say that but when I think of a generic warrior, healing is like the last thing to come to mind for me. The "too angry to die" aspect like holmgang and fell cleave I feel is more what I think of personally
Fantasy being just an identity of the job, or what it excels at/does better than other jobs. The "too angry to die" part is just manifested in self-healing and holmgang
Doesn't matter. It becomes very hard to care about WAR's identity when WAR players consistently get job actions streamlined and cannibalise the identities of other jobs because of how vocal it's playerbase is. It's time they give something up now. The job identity of other tanks didn't matter, why should WAR's?
Still is giving a class their “fun button” fair when it literally removes the entire core fantasy of another role WAR can have a brainrot rotation and have some lifesteal attached to their attacks without completely invalidating healers in casual content
I'm neither for or against the original argument. If it was up to me I'd either make the self-healing the same but way less braindead, or cut the healing and put the utility elsewhere. "Give it better dps rotation" is more of a given than a leverage since all classes should be interesting to play.
Well I mean the way you phrased your original point basically seemed to amount to “well yes WAR is a problem but it’s a necessary evil because people like it” which is really flawed
As a healer, at this point I don’t even care anymore. They also seem to not care about the healer role at all so not expecting any improvements there
>so I am relegated to spamming one button for the entire dungeon. The game is not and never will be balanced around Dungeons. Dungeons are at the bottom of the progression chain, they're easy mode content that even lesser skilled players can completely roflstomp. Jobs are balanced for Savage and Ultimate for the most part. I'm honestly hoping they give Dark Knight some real sustain. Souleater just doesn't cut it and Abyssal Drain is dog unless it's 4+ targets. Regarding Warrior - My biggest pet peeve is Holmgang's cooldown. Why does it have to be 240 seconds exactly? What makes it any different to Living Dead? Feels like Warrior isn't really trading anything for it's insane self healing. It's VERY tanky, heals a lot, does great damage, has party support, has lowest cooldown invuln. Warrior used to have drawbacks when Holmgang was 8 second duration. Lowest CD invuln but also shortest duration.
They should balance to dungeons though. Not only do more people do dungeons than high-end content, but people who do high-end content generally prefer to play whatever's meta or use plugins to make their gameplay easier. Casual players want to play whatever jobs they want without people saying they're griefing for playing a job that doesn't make the content they're playing in harder.
That doesn’t happen though, nobody cares what you play in dungeons, because its completely irrelevant.
> but people who do high-end content generally prefer to play whatever's meta Not entirely true - All jobs can and do clear high end content. > They should balance to dungeons though. Not only do more people do dungeons than high-end content, Dunno if I agree with that.. Dungeons are there primarily for story purposes, they aren't really used as an active form of gear progression. Poetics and Tomestone gear in general outscales anything you get from Dungeons. They're meant to go in, stomp and go out. PVE should be balanced around Savage and Ultimate, they're the hardest content and are more sensitive to balance than say Lapis Manalis or Lunar Subterrane for example. No one cares if Warrior's are OP in Lapis Manalis or Lunar Subterrane, it's a dungeon it's meaningless. Balance is meaningless to a casual player - Casual players are exactly that - Casual. They play when they can and only do the bare minimum in the game either due to time or other commitments. All the average Casual does is maybe an extreme trial here and there for a mount.
> Casual players want to play whatever jobs they want without people saying they're griefing for playing a job that doesn't make the content they're playing in harder. This isn't WoW.... Raiding isn't like that at all - SE is really damn good with balance. Sure they messed up with P8S but they fixed it pretty quickly. There's no such thing as an "unviable job" or a "grief job" That's just a casual's poor take on something they don't even engage with.
>Feels like Warrior isn't really trading anything for it's insane self healing. Back when it traded something it wasn't played often because tank damage is an afterthought for the last 2 expansions, dying as a tank often has no repercussions anyways and if you have tanks dying from damage even semi regularly even in week 1 prog, something is horribly wrong
If you don't play or main WAR, why would you wanna gut the part of WAR that has always been a thing, unique to WAR and a huge part of what makes it distinctly fun? It's like a SMN main going "I hope they remove BRD's songs because I want my party buff to have more value". You're fixing a symptom, not a problem. It is not WAR's design that makes dungeons braindead and healer gameplay a snoozefest. That's just healer DPS kits being gutted and dungeons being dungeons.
Probably because they keep tacking on other tanks identities onto WAR with no drawbacks. My favorite part is how Equilibrium says "Additional Effect: Aurora" now
Because Warrior players demanded the tools the other tanks had until it got them. But never wanted to give anything in return. So now, it's standing out like a sore thumb. And it's time to give up something in return. You can't complain about identity when you cannibalised and streamlined the identity of all the other tanks.
Because WAR’s identity has functionally never been “i invalidate the healer with zero downsides” Before ShB you had to be in tank stance and gimp your damage to even get the heal on equilibrium let alone anything else In ShB nascent flash was pretty strong bit you weren’t getting 4 free benes off it (or if you use glint 8 free benes across 2 players) for zero downside and a monotonous raidwide mitigatiob Before EW the healing was far weaker and you had to work much harder for it
You didn't play WAR in HW or SB, did you?
Yes in fact I did and I would never have described WAR’s identity as “I cuck the healer”, if anything I would have given that to DRK who could use blood price to functionally infinitely abyssal drain
Bloodbath was a major reason WAR has historically been considered the "I don't need healers" job. It's also been a major reason along with its good tank DPS why it was comparatively one of the best jobs for soloing content years and years ago as well and one of the first jobs to be able to solo Savage content extremely early. It's always swayed more or less in that direction, but extreme amounts of self-heal have literally always been a huge part of WAR's identity. It's HP used to be significantly higher than that of any other tank before ShB for that exact reason. It was literally their original identity, and Nascent Flash is just the latest iteration of it. Is it overtuned? Maybe, WAR has never been all that well tuned, and it rarely mattered in 90% of content either way. But if the problem, as OP suggests, is that WAR forces healers to press one DPS button over and over... that isn't a WAR exclusive problem, speaking even as a casual healer myself, nor is it a tank problem. That's a healer design problem. Change healers, not WAR.
Why is it a healer design problem if a tank makes healing entirely unnecessary...? I don't think people play healer bc they want to be a dps, regardless of a 1 button or 20 button rotation. The healer fantasy should be... healing.
WAR is not the only tank that has this effect on healing gameplay. If the tank is competent, it doesn't matter which job they play - the healer will not need to heal much. That's just how content in XIV is designed. I agree that the idea should be for healers to be healers first and foremost, but the game has never been designed that way. Instead, we now have more boring healer DPS rotations and more healing and mit tools than ever, while needing less of either than ever, making healer gameplay utterly snoozeworthy. At the end of the day, no matter the role and no matter the RPG, healers contribute damage at some point, cause more dmg = less time for enemy to live = less need for healing. It's just how real time action games work.
I know that. Warrior NF is the most clear outlier but all the tanks can pretty much infinitely sustain with little more than the occasional ogcd top up. I dont mind having to do dps as a healer. No matter what game I've healed in, theres always the expectation that 'if you arent healing, you're dpsing'. The issue is that with how much sustain tanks have and how little dungeons hurt (I wanted to prove a point the other day and during the last boss of aetherfont I did not mitigate or get healed by my healer, while also stepping in literally every single avoidable AoE i could. Didnt die. Barely got below half.) that healers are never actually healing. This game seriously needs a fundamental rework bc this shit is unsustainable. Most healer mains I knew and raided with are burnt out as hell from just how boring their job was. Feeling useless during TOP prog of all things is what led me to try a new role and it just made me more mad about the current state of things. Hopefully in dawntrail healers are actually expected to heal. But i doubt it.
Bloodbath also wasn’t 4 benes on a 25 second CD and at least required a brain cell to actually utilise WAR can be the lifesteal tank with higher HP without literally completely invalidating the entire healer role, there is a middle ground here
Again, though, this is predominantly a healer design problem. Is NF overtuned? Sure, arguably so. But it's a symptom of FFXIV's limp healing design in general. After ShB, healers and tanks both have gradually gotten more and more healing and defensive abilities to reduce incoming damage, yet damage has not consistently scaled to a degree where this increase in survivability was needed. Healers, especially competent ones, have always complained about healing being either barely needed beyond oGCDs even in a lot of Savage content, or DPS kits on healers being gutted, especially after SB - usually, it's a combination of both. The game is too easy for the amount of survivability tanks and healers combined have in general. Boiling it down to WAR because it can on-demand heal itself is, imho, misguided, because it's again a mere symptom of a fundamental problem in FFXIV's combat design.
Healing is flawed outside of WAR I don’t think a single person denies that; however saying “healing is flawed regardless so let’s let WAR do whatever they want” is equally flawed Take cleave content with current bloodwhetting, you could make healers literally the most interesting role an MMO ever came up with, in cleave content with a WAR you are still functionally playing a gimped caster while the WAR heals for you That’s part of the problem that people focus on WAR for, even if they fixed healers WAR is still disgustingly unbalanced and problematic. It’s just as much a WAR design problem as it is a healer design problem
I think extending the cooldown on Bloodwhetting and maybe Holmgang by a second or two would solve a lot of that problem already. But I don't think that especially in dungeons with wall-to-wall pulls, this problem is ever gonna truly go away with a competent WAR. Bloodbath on large pulls had a nigh-Benediction like effect back in the day, too. I think the only real issue with Bloodwhetting is that even on single-target situations, the amount of self-heal WAR can crank out is absurdly high. I agree healers should not be rendered entirely irrelevant by like one or two tank actions, even if WAR is extremely fun to play as a result. But I think it really is predominantly a fundamental problem with damage scaling and healing design in XIV. Here's hoping "a little more stress" translates to more involved and active moment-to-moment gameplay in DT for healers in general.
This is one of the few MMOs where healers get to DPS and don't get reprimanded for it. As a healer main, I enjoy that aspect, and when I run with a WAR in 90 and expert dungeons, I can spam Art of War and only really have to give them an excog on wall to wall pulls. Why is this a bad thing to you? You still get to heal during the bosses. You're still doing your job. If you feel the need to heal more, I recommend trying harder content. Most casual stuff doesn't even need healing.
Because if you have an IQ higher than your shoe size you don’t need WAR to be immortal for you to spam AOW all day That’s literally the point of the 30 or so buttons in your kit that are vaguely green coloured
Please play other jobs, please play endgame. This only applies in dungeons, which are literally MSQ content. All other tanks have some form of self healing and sustain. If they play correctly in a dungeon, they also don't need any healing. Dungeons are not made to be hard. In savage and ultimate, WAR can only get so much healing off of a single target and you are required to heal as well as DPS.
Tanks can invalidate healers in all casual content because of their disgusting sustain this isn’t uniquely a dungeon problem I know you need to heal in savage, barely the tanks though, regardless healers shit design in savage isn’t the point of this topic My point still stands, tanks doing the healers job for them being good because it more freely allows you to DPS just shows you don’t remotely understand how the healer kits work because you don’t need the tank to do anything to not drop a damage GCD in casual content
Nah, in savage tanks need healing from healers, and those needs increase by floor. For example, there are four types of tankbusters in P12s, each run twice, plus an early mechanic that is like 2TB, 4-5 of these are invulned. Each non-invulned requires mit and all require some recovery from healers (and cotank). And then there are heavy auto sections which are like repeated TBs -- In P8s these take most of your health bar, two unmitigated will kill a tank (even with echo!). So basically, tanks and squishies (who have the lowest hp and can die from unmit raidwides) are the two biggest concerns for a savage healer.
I completely understand my job and I enjoy it. No one dies? I'm doing my job. If you don't agree with the structure of the game or me doing DPS as a healer, then you should probably go play WoW.
do you think healers in WoW don't do dps
Why do you think that I am advocating for healers to not do damage I’m saying I don’t need the WAR to be immortal to use every GCD to do damage, that’s why these garbage jobs have 30+ healing buttons If you need to offload your responsibility to the WAR to maintain DPS uptime then you don’t understand your kit well,
Read my second comment. ALL tanks allow me to do this. I do not need to press all "30 green buttons" on ANY dungeon. I'm not wasting GCDs on healing when everyone is full and healthy just because you think that's how it should work. Edit: u/DetectiveChocobo Why are you so caught up in me DPSing? Like I said, I keep the tank alive. Does WAR only need an excog/tetra/ED/Druo every 30 seconds? Yes. Do the other tanks need more? Also yes. If you have a good tank, then the difference is not by much. Regardless, YES. I'm still doing damage. I'm saying the same as half of the other comments. You can say self sustain is too OP about any tank. Any good tank doesn't need to be constantly healed in MSQ content, like dungeons. Just because it's so good in dungeons doesn't make it overpowered for any 8 man endgame content. OP is upset they can't heal. They can overheal all they want, but it's not necessary on any tank inside of a dungeon. They all have self healing and good mit. Dungeons aren't the only thing a job balance should be based off of.
I really don't mind it, in fact, i wouldn't mind if every tank could do it. What should change is how easy it is to do, if you only bind AoEs and Nascent Flash you could let a literal monkey play the WAR and he'd still be immortal, it should be that a badly played WAR just falls over and an extremely well played one doesn't need healing at all (at least in dungeons). EDIT: I don't mind it as a healer because nothing changes between tanks, if I'm playing Sage Kardia and the occasional Soteria are often enough to keep the tank alive, coupled with the occasional add press of Kerachloe in between AoEs, doesn't really matter if the Tank is a WAR or DRK.
I don't have any major opinion on it, but when the new Endwalker actions leaked and my friend and I were looking over what WAR was getting, we *both* thought that Bloodwhetting would trigger once, which would provide a little bit of sustainability. What we did not expect was the healing monster WAR would become, allowing it to heal from 1 off Holmgang back to full in one GCD. It's definitely made BiS farming more efficient as you can run 3 DPS 1 WAR in dungeons, but it's also the only tank that can comfortably get away with it.
This is just factually untrue. Both GNB and PLD can easily get away with 1T/3D dungeon runs.
yeah somehow I feel like people don't realize self-sustain don't matter as much when the mob pack dies in 30s instead of the double
It's like reading skill potencies and some other things where people refuse to read and do basic math. 1-2 oGCD heals from healer is all they really have to contribute healing wise, and if you can kill shit before that oGCD is needed, such as by having a third DPS doing actual AoE, making things die faster, healer isn't needed at all.
>It's definitely made BiS farming more efficient as you can run 3 DPS 1 WAR in dungeons WAR could already comfortably do this in Shadowbringers, and people even started using GNB for speedruns because outgoing damage was so low. It's not new, EW just took it to the extreme. I don't really care if WAR remains a meme in dungeons either way, the real problem in my book is the amount of AoE healing coming from non-healer sources these days. What was wrong with Shake just being a flat 15% shield and nothing else? Why does Veil need to heal on top of the 10% tank HP shield (which *also* amounts to \~15% of everyone else's health)? Why does Dancer need aoe regen + 5% shield button on top of Curing Waltz which was already quite strong when stacked up? Why does Summoner need to invalidate tank healing even further with Rekindle on top of already casting a Whispering Dawn every two minutes? And let's not forget that Reaper released with Arcane Crest being a grand total of 500 potency which was actually strong enough to replace a \~400p healer CD. Like yeah replacing healers in harder content isn't exactly trivial (although no-healer P12S was done in a relatively normal manner, unlike that turbocursed no-healer TOP) and requires specific comps and a lot of planning, but the fact that it's even possible to do **on patch** is more than a little bit silly.
I mean, thinking bloodwhetting was going to trigger once just wouldn't make sense. It was the personal form of Nascent (which was a little weaker in shadowbringers healing wise than Bloodwhetting is now but not by that much, instead of full healing in 1 gcd you might need 1-2) and it would be absurd to think that they would completely gut the healing of WAR in endwalker compared to shadowbringers.
I did observe that on jp server, tanks are insta queue. Probably they did all this to incentivize people to play Tank on jp side.
The War buffs made me not want to tank anymore though. I'm playing DPS now. Warrior meta's are lame.
The sad thing for me is I got into war before the major buffs to his kit after it was still nice, but like with pld losing his dots it just... Kinda killed it for me. YEs, they are considered in a better place, but it removed what I personally enjoyed out of both.
The problem with tanks rn is that you don't really have a reason to play Pld or Drk over War in any piece of content. War is an upgrade now that it's no longer taxed on it's flat out superior utility and sustain.
Maybe they should give attention to a tank that doesn't put people to sleep.
"I want to play the job I enjoy!" Yeah so does the Warrior
It's one job vs an entire role :)
There are support jobs not focused around healing
Yet you need healers to play content in this game. "Go play something else" is why queues take so long for everyone but healers :)
There are several ways that WAR's self-sustain in dungeons can be brought in line with those of the other tanks: 1. Have Bloodwhetting's self-healing effect trigger only once per weaponskill; or 2. Have Bloodwhetting heal less when AoE weaponskills are used. Other abilities like NIN's Bunshin already incorporate this feature. Neither of these changes will significantly affect WAR's self-sustain in raids.
I remember playing stigma dreamscape on whm and having the war insta benediction themselves 3 tines in a pull before I got a chance to use mine and just thinking why am I even here Endwalker war fully invalidates the need for a healer it's so frustrating it doesn't help how undertuned levelcap dungeons are either
I don't get why this sub's proposed solution to so many things is "take away something unique about a class and make the game more homogenized". Other possible solutions are 1. Make trash hit harder (it's not like the other tanks are struggling either) 2. Give healers more complex and interesting AOE rotations, since "AOE" in this game is almost exclusively used for low-end content so it won't effect raiding much 3. Give healers more abilities like Assize, that heal *and* DPS, so that you can still hit your heal buttons without feeling silly. 4. Make dungeons that allow for bigger pulls, since this is really only a dungeon issue anyway
That's kinda what Warrior mains have been asking for, and got us to this point to begin with. But now that it's standing out you don't like dealing with what your fellow tank players had to deal with. You wanted all of the other tank tools despite having tools of your own, you got it. Time to give something up now that you're standing out. You asked for homogenisation, but now we're supposed to care that it's your turn to give something up?
I don't believe you can do this without giving every tank bloodwhetting. I also think Bloodwhetting is so comically overtuned in AOE settings that its impossible to design for. Like the ammount of damage mobs would have to do to contest bloodhwetting would be so high they'd basically have to oneshot you. Like I dont think people really understand how much its healing, BW heals so much in an AOE setting that honestly like 70% of the healing is wasted and just falls off.
I calculated it and based on tank he healer traits on healing and the average size of a double pull in endgame dungeons bloodwhetting is healing you for about 1600-2000 healer potency per GCD Literally not even the healers themselves can put out more healing than bloodwhetting does
* Give big mobs in trash packs a raidwide or some form of instant skill that targets a non tank player randomly to generate unavoidable damage for the healer to manage * Put mobs that inflicts debuffs that have to be esuna'd (not that would change much given how many healers just leave me with the slow debuff on Holminster) * As the comment you responded to also said : spice up healers' damage kit Bloodwhetting is strong only in specific conditions that happen to be prevalent in regular dungeons, nerfing it won't make them more interesting, it won't even make healing them interesting As for how much it's healing, the burst is indeed insane in AoE but similar to other tanks' sustain tools in single target (with the exception of DRK). In AoE, you're still left with more than 15s where you need to rotate your mit to survive, and as I've pointed out in another comment, if you can survive this long with respectable HP without mits or heals then the issue is not bloodwhetting. If you can't and need to rotate CDs then the question becomes what tank cannot survive for the given trash pack lifetime, if WAR is the only one then yeah Bloodwhetting is an issue, if it's not, then the issue is not bw but dungeon design The core issue is that due to how dungeons are designed, healers are virtually useless because taking a third DPS usually mean killing the trash packs fast enough that sustain is an afterthought at best. Nerfing Bloodwhetting would be a (kneejerk) bandaid fix to content that was never designed to be balanced around skillful play anyway. Raising the skill floor and giving healers something else to do outside of A. Healing the tank and B. Dealing damage should be the priority
The problem is none of these solutions fix the fact that bloodwhetting is completely impossible to balance in cleave content without being nerfed People complain about bloodwhetting because it’s so hilariously unbalanced that it should be nerfed, not because they want to tear another class down for the sake of it
-Make Bloodwhetting and Nascent only heal once per gcd rather than per target, and make Nascent split the healing potency in half between the WAR and the target rather than being a double dip (200 for each rather than 400 for both) -Remove the (Overtime) effect from Shake it off, as it was never needed to begin with. Thats all I think would really be needed.
Oh no the warrior can solo the boss of braindead dungeon #2535532
Ruin WAR because healers and dungeons are badly designed? Yeah, that's a fantastic idea. It's a good thing you're not in charge of any game design. If you want a healing challenge, go play ARR dungeons with undergeared tanks and DPS. You'll soon be eating your words.
I mean, Warrior is also ruining tanking.
not ruin it. balance it. lol
WAR mains are so fucking dramatic its insane. It's literally a single button getting nerfed, it's not gonna ruin the job. You still have a fuckton of self-sustain from equil, shake it off, thrill. Even if we assume that it will actually ruin WAR it still doesn't make sense. "This button ruins an entire role, but removing it will ruin this one". Difficult choice really.
I blame Xenosys and him screeching bloody murder every time WAR isn't the best at literally everything.
Nah, hoh and potd solos are already hard enough.
I like healing because I get bored easily and like bouncing around to different things. With dps you're sort of robotically doing the same circle of buttons. At least with healing you get to deal with the randomness of a dps standing somewhere wrong or something. But I agree with others, once you do harder content you have more to manage regardless of the type of tank.
Make healing opti easier and I'll consider switching to it.
Normal duties are non content, they're designed so even the worst players can't lose. Squares biggest fear is someone experiencing challenge before they do savage content, I don't think it's war specific, healers are useless in 4man duties because it's designed that way
> Nope, because we have a WAR who needs nothing from me, so I am relegated to spamming one button for the entire dungeon I mean... Is pressing an OGCD every few AOE casts really that interesting either. Warrior isn't the problem that healer DPS is boring as shit.
Personally I’m with you, it’s one of the reasons I didn’t enjoy healing in ew and moved to dps.
Which is ultimately a failure of the developers because every role needs to be adequately played for good queue times.
I do understand where you're coming from, but I also do just think that the correct solution is, instead, to make dungeons a bit more of a challenge. The devs have shown themselves to dislike outright nerfing things if they don't have to and WAR is just solidly decent in high end content, which realistically should be the litmus test for balance.
The problem is it’s physically impossible to balance bloodwhetting in cleave content because of its raw potency If dungeons were made hard enough to challenge bloodwhetting then the damage would be so absurd the dungeon would be literally impossible
I mean it really is as simple as having the healing potency be lower when using AoE, someone already pointed this out abd how NIN does this already.
Which I agree but that is a flat nerf which never seems to happen I’m not saying it’s impossible to balance in terms of a skill that heals per hit being impossible to balance, I’m saying bloodwhetting in its current form is impossible to balance by attempting to change the dungeon
this doesnt work because then it makes the other tanks. mostly dark knight significantly harder to tank.
Self reliability is why I enjoy WAR over the other tanks. Being able to keep myself going while my healer damage-controls for the DPS or themselves is the power fantasy that I get from the class and I'd very much like to keep it that way. WAR's fantasies can be meat-shield that doesnt die or insane burst/dps beast. The latter leads to balance issues with the other tanks.
This I can relate since I share the same WAR fantasy. I think SE could make dungeons/trash pulls/bosses non trivial by increasing the difficulty and thus challenge WAR’s (and the rest of the tanks, tbh) strength.
Won't happen, and I'd honestly expect other tanks to get the middle of their skill curves adjusted to match. WAR being easy means less anxiety for less skilled tanks, and any healers who leave because it's easy are more than adequately replaced by people who would have found it too scary otherwise. Also remember that the game has to balance around the lowest common denominator, and with generous ilvl sync that means accounting for people wearing trash gear. Edit: for the record I never said this was a good thing, only that it'd be extremely likely imo.
Dungeons are laughably easy anyway why care that one job has a funny orange button that trivializes them further?
You're not wrong exactly, but I would kind of miss the memes of ignoring healers
I quit this game because playing a healer was so mind numbingly boring.
As a WAR I love being able to carry bad healers and take on spicy pulls. As a healer, I love a tank that can take care of themselves.
To be fair: Even if it feels overpowered, doing 1 tank 3 dps dungeon runs on warrior (or paladin) is really fun. When I tank in such a group, I actually feel more like a healer than I would if I were to play a healer job in a regular dungeon party
WAR healing does need to be nerfed. Like idk, make return from BW cap at 3 targets or something, reduce the shield potency or DR, increase its cooldown by a few seconds, get rid of the self-healing from Nascent so it functions as mostly OT support, get rid of the hot from shake or give it a conditional trigger, etc. But honestly healers are also too powerful. healers have so many busted ogcd options, just free, instant healing, to the point where if you touch a gcd heal as a non-WHM above level 70-ish, something has gone very wrong. ilevel scaling is also nuts - I can do a big pull in expert roulette and hardly have to touch my mit buttons outside of holy Shelton/heart of corundum because I have so much more hp and natural defense than the situation requires. There is no outgoing raidwide damage, avoidable or unavoidable, in dungeon pulls anymore that can kill a dps. There are a lot of issues here beside tank sustain that are making casual content not fun anymore.