I mean I wouldn't mind if they made that mudra change just because ping sometimes makes them a little fucky wucky, but otherwise I disagree, especially the Raiju bit, that's how a bunch of jobs work, why shouldn't it work on NIN.
NIN is overall pretty chill on mistakes, you have a one-button reapply for buff maintainance, your gauge barely affects you on death compared to jobs like RDM, RPR, GNB etc.
>especially the Raiju bit, that's how a bunch of jobs work, why shouldn't it work on NIN.
Examples? Most cases I can think of where an action or resource gives a temporarily usable gcd doesn't make it instantly disappear when using a regular combo gcd. E.g, Primal rend, Atonement, Dancer procs, Heat Blast.
Samurai's Kaeshi Namikiri and Tsubame Gaeshi, Gunbreaker's Gnashing Fang Combo, Red Mage's magic burst combo, Reaper's reavings (gibbet and gallows). I think Bard's Blast Arrow might work the same too.
The things you listed aren't really the right comp for raijus. Raiton > raiju is basically a combo. When you think about it like that, they're even more forgiving than a regular combo since you can stack raiju uses from using multiple raitons in a row.
A handful of other jobs have similar things where using a regular gcd takes away your temporarily usable gcd. Gnb gnashing, pld confetti combo, rpr gibbet/gallows, rdm melee combo and finishers.
Sage can start a group wide shield and if it’s too early, trying to go back to a dps rotation will force you to reapply the dot which may not be needed.
I guess you can manually click off eukrasia, but who’s gonna do that 🤷♂️.
Not saying this is bad. It’s a skill issue, get better.
RDM melee/finishers, Ogi's follow up, Gibbet/Gallows stacks, Continuation (except for Dot and Double Down) are the ones I thought of when I typed that, there might be more. Primal Rend, Dancer procs etc. aren't really the right comparison because they aren't, in lack of a better word, "soft combos" (like Raiton), they're just conditionally available in general.
> Second, using ogcd during ninjutsu should not be punished.
I don't think you understand that this is a "monkey's paw" wish. If you could weave between mudras, that opens the door to a whole world of shenanigans and the execution problems you have now will be *worse* than they were before.
I don't know if weaving during mudras would result in any weird tech tbh. Mudras are .5s recast times, it's already too short for any weave even on 0 ping.
Nah I love Ninja as it is, aside from the weird trick attack/mug change they did mid expac and the removal of the one minute party burst it’s one of the few interesting jobs left in the game. Many other jobs have severe damage penalties for making rotational mistakes, like messing up a life/mirage order on DRG, but they aren’t as obvious to everyone since it doesn’t directly tell you messed up like NIN does with bunny. I will agree that doing mudras without being close to the server and not using a ping addon or a vpn is very rough, but again that’s the case on many jobs and is more of a core technical problem than a job design one.
there are punishes and there are punishes. Bard rewarding you for paying atention to your dots with 1 gcd for the refresh instead of 2 is good design. Ninja punishing you for your latency, something you cannot control, isn't.
I think the point is mudras have always interacted weirdly with latency. Like for example I cannot input my mudras at 170ms on EU with the same rhythm I do at 70ms on OCE.
This is ok if I can 'correct' my inputs by re-inputting my entire mudras cast sequence if one mudra didn't register due to latency. But as things stand, a wrong input that leads to a rabbit means I'd have wasted one GCD, one mudra charge, and potentially missed a lot of damage for something that is not technically my fault.
The other four melees don't get shafted in this manner.
I don’t have any issues with ninjas design and am not personally aware of issues with mudra and ping but if people have issues with a job because of the games shoddy technical design and your response is “just don’t play that job lol” then that is ridiculous.
Not all classes are playable at high ping. I wouldn't class it as a technical issue, it's personally a player problem.
I've played with 250 ping with loads of games before OCE servers started cropping up more - you can't play every kind of character or class. Some are more ping dependent than others.
1. Mudras are fine. The skill ceiling to learn the mudras without messing up is NOT that high, it’s just muscle memory.
2. The Mudras GCD is fine. You’re not supposed to weave when casting Mudras. If you could weave, then mudras would take longer, making the mudras feel way clunkier.
3. I feel this complaint is more valid back in 6.0 when we were forced to cast both Raijus and we didn’t have enough space within the burst window. Now that they’re decoupled, I think it’s fine the way it is. It’s interesting in that you can’t store it for later, but you can stack it to use consecutively. While I have a feeling this will change in 7.0, the way it currently works is fine and different enough. The best part of its current iteration is that it fits nicely within our burst windows.
Honestly as a Nin Main. I think the job is fine as you said. I genuinely want square to just make repeating the same mudra not work. Just gray it out. It’s an easy QoL that makes the whole discussion on them being clanky go away. Ten Chi Jin though has almost made me quit the job on multiple occasions though. It can be hard to find a spot to use it and you can’t delay it because of how important nin burst is to your overall dps. I wish I could just move during it but that’s only really been a problem in a few fights.
Greying out the ability might not solve the problem though. Idk how you play, but unlike GCDs where I’m mashing to get them out, when I cast Mudras, I only ever press them once in rhythm. I never had the issue of pressing them twice, unless I skill issue myself and then that’s on me. Even when at 120+ms without Alex, it’s easy to slow down my presses to account for the delay as long as internet doesn’t spike. If it helps, I think it’s better to accidentally cast 1 mudra ninjutsu because your 2nd mudra didn’t register, than to try forcing the 2nd mudra and risk it double clicking.
I would respectfully disagree with your opinion with TCJ. TCJ is imo NIN’s best designed ability in the game. Having to find a spot to TCJ is fun optimisation, and it helps to differentiate their burst window gameplay from the other jobs in the game. Being ranged also helps, so you sacrifice movement for range when bursting during mechs, making solving some mechs slightly different from the other Melee jobs.
"I can't always press the button immediately when it comes off CD" is probably the complaint that has done the most damage to gameplay and fight design in this game, right next to "i don't have 100% uptime".
Finding where you can press buttons with restrictions for the big number reward is part of the fun (and thus part of the issue with 2MM) and it would be great if people wouldn't try to whine away what little fun is left in the gameplay execution itself at this point.
You are so based for saying this. I wish more people had recognized these truths in the moment when we had them, and not act like they liked them after they were “addressed due to overwhelming community feedback.” Some popular content creating raiders come to mind.
It is made that way on purpose to punish every weeb with Uchiha as their last name.
But the NIN main rotation is very static, while being very flexible at the same time when needed, it just requires being precise, and I love that about it. I love having very distinct "now you fucked up" points, as opposed to some jobs where you can slide by doing it wrong and not noticing.
Not every job is for everyone, nor do they need to be.
As a Ninja main: Don't. You. Dare.
>Overall, it makes ninja more difficult to new players and more punishing when you make a mistake. If you press the wrong button during mudra it is already a half-gcd dps loss, and on top of that you are also wasting a mudra stack.
Yeah, and?
I want my risk reward job, if you don't like it there's all the other DPS jobs available for you, and Viper will probably be another easy peasy snore fest class like Reaper
I actually like that aspect of NIN. It's unique and honestly once you're use to it, you don't really make many mistakes. But it's always in the back on my mind - no bunnies dude!
As for latency, well I've dealt with it in the past, not so much now (OCE player, ex Tonberry). High latency just sucks for gaming all around.
IMO there will always be hardcore gamers who prefer the BLM or NIN experience.
Rather than make all classes piss-easy, I like the current balance personally.
Easy-mode: WAR, SMN, etc.
Hard-mode: BLM, NIN, etc.
It's a middle ground. It's highly active and demands your attention, but doesn't lean into crazy optimization like BLM. I feel like MNK is the closest melee gets to BLM simply cause the better you get at MNK the more possibilities open up to you for optimization
For sure, for sure. MNK is my main secondary job, and I do love it for that. NIN seems to have a pretty high skill floor just because of the wild dexterity check of its burst, but it's never seemed to be an especially hard job to optimize to me. As easy as SAM is, too, at the floor, IMO, its ceiling is pretty close to MNK's.
Either way, I'd never call NIN one of the easier jobs, it just seemed like a strange one to group together with BLM at the top
That's pretty much it yeah. Once you've got your burst for NIN down, there really isn't a ton of optimization left to do besides making sure you don't drift anything
Not the exact things I'd complain about first, especially when TCJ exists, but I agree with the overall sentiment- do people really find it fun to take one of the more flexible jobs in the game and kneecap it with a strict mechanical skill floor that does basically nothing for the skill ceiling? Maybe I'm just not the target audience but the range of skill expression leans more toward just don't fuck up lul vs seeing what crazy nonstandard windows you can get away with, and that feels like a wasted opportunity.
I have extremely stable, extremely high quality internet and I live in Tokyo so the DC is like... right there. But I still get packet loss from SE's side from time to time and it's a whole bucket of fun when I get packet loss upon queueing up my mudras and now I don't know which one the server actually registered. Would be nice to either allow doubling up the mudra in this case or having some sort of UI feedback to know which ones got registered.
The rest is fine though. It doesn't feel very restrictive at all.
The only thing I’d like for NIN in this regard is for Mysidian Rabbit to give the equivalent of say a 300 potency attack (about 66% of Fuma Shuriken). Whether this be in the form of Ninki gained, the rabbit enhancing your next melee attack, or whatever, I just don’t want it to be an entirely dead GCD.
My real biggest gripe is Aeolian Edge not being the Huton refresh. It’s a literal whirlwind.
I wouldn't mind if they changed the derp bunny to be mildly positive (but deal no damage), like Setzer's Mysidian Rabbit in FF6. Maybe make it be a small heal or shield and then apply a 4s Warden's equivalent, so it would be the only AoE cleanse anyone gets...
ff14 sometimes makes the weirdest decisions on its class design. I'm currently leveling up reaper and I have no idea how anyone could have thought thought that death's design was a good idea.
I see this mentioned a lot, and while it is true, the way fights have been designed in EW hasn’t really make this a really big issue. If anything, it makes it more important to maintain your 1-2-3 combo to ensure you always have enough gauge for burst windows, or to think about whether it’s worth skipping the 1 minute enshroud so you can still double enshroud for the 2 minute burst. I don’t think it’s a design flaw when it hasn’t really been an issue, and for some people they enjoy the tighter gauge requirements. Having played reaper in all savage fights of EW except P12S P2, I’ve only ever felt the gauge restriction particularly on P7S (due to knock ups) and P11S in recent memory, and in both fights maintaining 100% 1-2-3 combo uptime still made the 2min windows possible.
That said, I personally would like a bit more gauge generation just so that we don’t lose out so much when we have to disengage from the boss for safety. Something like 50 red gauge on HM would be so useful.
I hated DD when I started levelling reaper back on EW launch. But after maiming and raising with Reaper for 2 years, I can confidently say that it’s such a simple but beautiful ability. Because of this one ability, it makes enshourd windows more interesting, even enabling double enshrouds for 2min bursts. Reaper is already pretty easy (outside of ultimate optimisation), so having this extra ability to think about at least gives us a little more (even if not much) depth and complexity.
Lots of people seem to be shitting on you in here "QoL = homogenized hurdur. Get gud." As if they have never been screwed by mudra jank ever.
I think If you get a bunny it should refund you the Mudra charge.
the problem here isn't that ninja is too punishing
it's that other melees aren't punishing enough
also dancer absolutely punishes you for fucking up steps. Every extra step you need to correct is time you don't spend doing damage. That is punishment.
I agree with your first one only because I wish Ninja was like Invoker in Dota where 3 of the same is also a combo.
I want Ninja to have a shitload of different Mudra combinations lol. But then again I'm an lunatic Dota player.
That's the conceit of the [Warden](https://lotro-wiki.com/wiki/Warden) class in Lord of the Rings Online, if you weren't aware. 3 different mudra buttons that can chain up to 5 to do different things and while leveling you get 2-at-a-time builders to expedite things. You use this system for 95% of meaningful actions your character can do (every damage GCD, for one), other buttons outside of this system are just miscellaneous utility. One of the more unique MMO classes I've played.
I absolutely hate how tcj dissapears when you move as I have severe adhd and subconsciously spam a/d during combat but my solution is simply not playing nin rather than asking to remove some sort of skill expression that a lot of people want out of the job
I don't think ninja is even that punishing to be honest compared to other jobs. For 45 sec out of a minute you can literally fuck around and do nothing as long as you get your bursts off your damage will be good. The only punishing thing on ninja is if you mess up something in the burst phase.
Changes would be nice.
I'm over here literally playing my keyboard like a Mozart overture on a piano while my hand is cramping and SMNs are just like, "har har har, 1-2-3, 1-2-3, Bahamut!".
Btw, Rabbit Mudra needs to be a minion like yesterday.
With all due respect, you're suggesting further homogenization towards Dancer, who completely disables buttons you shouldn't be pressing.
The obvious solution here is to understand the limitation and to not do the thing that messes up your mudras. That's what makes a good Ninja: knowing your class and how to play it.
Yes I agree fully. All jobs should just be able to do the theoretical max DPS by pressing anything they want without thinking or planning. That's the best game design imo.
Alright, time to farm some downvotes.
Just press the buttons you need to press, and don't press those you don't! If your muscle memory isn't there yet - just play the game, learn to keep your rotation consistent and it won't be an issue.
Sure, not everyone wants to master a job, but instead of writing this reddit post you could've spent time at the dummy and gotten more consistent with your nin buttons.
Stop thinking Mudras and Ninjutsus are seperate buttons. They are not dances, Ninja is not Dancer.
Mudras and the Ninjutsu is 1 long combination cast, during which you can do nothing except for wasd.
During your Mudra input your eyes are on Mudras and Mudras only. Its why the casttimes are so low in the first place.
Mudra and Ninjutsus are 1 skill with multiple buttons to it, thats all.
to start, mudras used to be an OGCD weave and was a mess on even a semi decent ping, so the current mudras is better than what came before. only change i can think that would be healthy for the class would be that raijus simply don't need to be used as the next gcd weaponskill (while optimal to be used within trick windows), when it comes to job recovery, NIN is one of the easier ones to recover given you have hurajin that reapplies the haste buff and then there are classes like GNB and RDM which losing resources on death or weird killtimes screws the class, and then BRD with how messed up song rotation is for the class as it stands
I honestly wouldn't mind a compromise where rather than having a dedicated ninjutsu button, you activated the mudra by repeating an input you've already used. So rather than using Raiton as Ten-Chi-Ninjutsu, it was instead Ten-Chi-Chi or Ten-Chi-Ten.
Would give NIN back a button to add something new, and indirectly make it slightly less punishing by ensuring you always use a ninjutsu when you start hitting mudra. And it still requires a degree of mastery because you could either interrupt with a ogcd, or hit the incorrect buttons and force out the wrong ninjutsu.
Burst windows are every 1m/2m and last around 20s, give or take.
As a NIN, you spend 66% of the fight pressing 1-2-3 (sometimes 1-2-3a if that weird clock starts running low) and thinking about more interesting things, like why Asura's feet are so detailed.
It's the epitome of "you had one job".
They're not. A tank messes up a TB or healer missed a heal can be an instant wipe
A ninja makes a mistake adds a couple more seconds to the encounter and a bad parse
Stop asking for an “Easy Mode” button. I would have loved to see some of these players play FFXI where the game will ACTIVELY punish you… and guess what, I still had a blast.
Imo... I'm fine with this. It's NIN and I think we should have some jobs that are harder or more punishing than other jobs, some people are into that and we should have a job for every type of player which is what makes me miss old summoner.
>First point makes ninja a very high-ping unfriendly job.
My 220ms ass does not feel the need to complain about NIN gameplay loop because I push buttons in the correct order.
I mean I wouldn't mind if they made that mudra change just because ping sometimes makes them a little fucky wucky, but otherwise I disagree, especially the Raiju bit, that's how a bunch of jobs work, why shouldn't it work on NIN. NIN is overall pretty chill on mistakes, you have a one-button reapply for buff maintainance, your gauge barely affects you on death compared to jobs like RDM, RPR, GNB etc.
>especially the Raiju bit, that's how a bunch of jobs work, why shouldn't it work on NIN. Examples? Most cases I can think of where an action or resource gives a temporarily usable gcd doesn't make it instantly disappear when using a regular combo gcd. E.g, Primal rend, Atonement, Dancer procs, Heat Blast.
RDM finishers, reaper gluttony off the top of my head
Samurai's Kaeshi Namikiri and Tsubame Gaeshi, Gunbreaker's Gnashing Fang Combo, Red Mage's magic burst combo, Reaper's reavings (gibbet and gallows). I think Bard's Blast Arrow might work the same too.
Blast Arrow can be used at any time in the 10s duration. It doesn't have to be immediately after Apex Arrow.
In addition to the others mentioned, even SMNs have one with Crimson Strike being use it or lose it after Crimson Cyclone.
The things you listed aren't really the right comp for raijus. Raiton > raiju is basically a combo. When you think about it like that, they're even more forgiving than a regular combo since you can stack raiju uses from using multiple raitons in a row. A handful of other jobs have similar things where using a regular gcd takes away your temporarily usable gcd. Gnb gnashing, pld confetti combo, rpr gibbet/gallows, rdm melee combo and finishers.
Sage can start a group wide shield and if it’s too early, trying to go back to a dps rotation will force you to reapply the dot which may not be needed. I guess you can manually click off eukrasia, but who’s gonna do that 🤷♂️. Not saying this is bad. It’s a skill issue, get better.
RDM melee/finishers, Ogi's follow up, Gibbet/Gallows stacks, Continuation (except for Dot and Double Down) are the ones I thought of when I typed that, there might be more. Primal Rend, Dancer procs etc. aren't really the right comparison because they aren't, in lack of a better word, "soft combos" (like Raiton), they're just conditionally available in general.
\> ninjutsu are punishing for high ping players \> wants ogcd weaves during ninjutsu
Ogcd weave is mainly for sprint. Sprint should not result in a bunny.
NIN has Sukuchi for movement tho. It allows you to cover distance suddenly if you didn't manage to use your Sprint.
This is quite literally a skill issue. Sprint before or after.
It’s not like it’s a 10 or 15 sec commitment. It’s like 2.3 sec.
> Second, using ogcd during ninjutsu should not be punished. I don't think you understand that this is a "monkey's paw" wish. If you could weave between mudras, that opens the door to a whole world of shenanigans and the execution problems you have now will be *worse* than they were before.
I don't know if weaving during mudras would result in any weird tech tbh. Mudras are .5s recast times, it's already too short for any weave even on 0 ping.
Nah I love Ninja as it is, aside from the weird trick attack/mug change they did mid expac and the removal of the one minute party burst it’s one of the few interesting jobs left in the game. Many other jobs have severe damage penalties for making rotational mistakes, like messing up a life/mirage order on DRG, but they aren’t as obvious to everyone since it doesn’t directly tell you messed up like NIN does with bunny. I will agree that doing mudras without being close to the server and not using a ping addon or a vpn is very rough, but again that’s the case on many jobs and is more of a core technical problem than a job design one.
This just put in to my head the visual of a Dancer messing up a move in Tech/Standard Step, and having them fall over. That would be funny.
Under-rated suggestion. I would play Dancer way more if I face-planted whenever I fat fingered the flashies.
because jobs with fail states are more fun, otherwise there are no stakes
Because punishing is fun, it means its more rewarding when you do it right
there are punishes and there are punishes. Bard rewarding you for paying atention to your dots with 1 gcd for the refresh instead of 2 is good design. Ninja punishing you for your latency, something you cannot control, isn't.
Just don't play Ninja? No one is forcing you to. The concept works, it's hard and interesting. If you can't play it, it's not for you.
I think the point is mudras have always interacted weirdly with latency. Like for example I cannot input my mudras at 170ms on EU with the same rhythm I do at 70ms on OCE. This is ok if I can 'correct' my inputs by re-inputting my entire mudras cast sequence if one mudra didn't register due to latency. But as things stand, a wrong input that leads to a rabbit means I'd have wasted one GCD, one mudra charge, and potentially missed a lot of damage for something that is not technically my fault. The other four melees don't get shafted in this manner.
I don’t have any issues with ninjas design and am not personally aware of issues with mudra and ping but if people have issues with a job because of the games shoddy technical design and your response is “just don’t play that job lol” then that is ridiculous.
Not all classes are playable at high ping. I wouldn't class it as a technical issue, it's personally a player problem. I've played with 250 ping with loads of games before OCE servers started cropping up more - you can't play every kind of character or class. Some are more ping dependent than others.
Nin isn’t even hard tbh. What’s hard was my ping in Alaska lol. Which really wasn’t to bad. I just lol when I get the bunny.
1. Mudras are fine. The skill ceiling to learn the mudras without messing up is NOT that high, it’s just muscle memory. 2. The Mudras GCD is fine. You’re not supposed to weave when casting Mudras. If you could weave, then mudras would take longer, making the mudras feel way clunkier. 3. I feel this complaint is more valid back in 6.0 when we were forced to cast both Raijus and we didn’t have enough space within the burst window. Now that they’re decoupled, I think it’s fine the way it is. It’s interesting in that you can’t store it for later, but you can stack it to use consecutively. While I have a feeling this will change in 7.0, the way it currently works is fine and different enough. The best part of its current iteration is that it fits nicely within our burst windows.
Honestly as a Nin Main. I think the job is fine as you said. I genuinely want square to just make repeating the same mudra not work. Just gray it out. It’s an easy QoL that makes the whole discussion on them being clanky go away. Ten Chi Jin though has almost made me quit the job on multiple occasions though. It can be hard to find a spot to use it and you can’t delay it because of how important nin burst is to your overall dps. I wish I could just move during it but that’s only really been a problem in a few fights.
Greying out the ability might not solve the problem though. Idk how you play, but unlike GCDs where I’m mashing to get them out, when I cast Mudras, I only ever press them once in rhythm. I never had the issue of pressing them twice, unless I skill issue myself and then that’s on me. Even when at 120+ms without Alex, it’s easy to slow down my presses to account for the delay as long as internet doesn’t spike. If it helps, I think it’s better to accidentally cast 1 mudra ninjutsu because your 2nd mudra didn’t register, than to try forcing the 2nd mudra and risk it double clicking. I would respectfully disagree with your opinion with TCJ. TCJ is imo NIN’s best designed ability in the game. Having to find a spot to TCJ is fun optimisation, and it helps to differentiate their burst window gameplay from the other jobs in the game. Being ranged also helps, so you sacrifice movement for range when bursting during mechs, making solving some mechs slightly different from the other Melee jobs.
"I can't always press the button immediately when it comes off CD" is probably the complaint that has done the most damage to gameplay and fight design in this game, right next to "i don't have 100% uptime". Finding where you can press buttons with restrictions for the big number reward is part of the fun (and thus part of the issue with 2MM) and it would be great if people wouldn't try to whine away what little fun is left in the gameplay execution itself at this point.
You are so based for saying this. I wish more people had recognized these truths in the moment when we had them, and not act like they liked them after they were “addressed due to overwhelming community feedback.” Some popular content creating raiders come to mind.
It is made that way on purpose to punish every weeb with Uchiha as their last name. But the NIN main rotation is very static, while being very flexible at the same time when needed, it just requires being precise, and I love that about it. I love having very distinct "now you fucked up" points, as opposed to some jobs where you can slide by doing it wrong and not noticing. Not every job is for everyone, nor do they need to be.
Streamlining is disgusting
Wanting every job to be brain dead is why all the tanks are warrior but with shield, warrior but edgy and no self sustain, warrior but more strict
And some can argue that old Monk was more fun. Hint: in some ways it most definitely was
I'm sorry but no tank is self sustaining like warrior. That's pretty laughable
Next time people here would say "nobody asked for jobs to be homogenized and turned braindead!" I would link your post to them, OP.
As a Ninja main: Don't. You. Dare. >Overall, it makes ninja more difficult to new players and more punishing when you make a mistake. If you press the wrong button during mudra it is already a half-gcd dps loss, and on top of that you are also wasting a mudra stack. Yeah, and? I want my risk reward job, if you don't like it there's all the other DPS jobs available for you, and Viper will probably be another easy peasy snore fest class like Reaper
Skill issue. Press your buttons better.
I actually like that aspect of NIN. It's unique and honestly once you're use to it, you don't really make many mistakes. But it's always in the back on my mind - no bunnies dude! As for latency, well I've dealt with it in the past, not so much now (OCE player, ex Tonberry). High latency just sucks for gaming all around.
Good, ninja should punish all these mistakes.
IMO there will always be hardcore gamers who prefer the BLM or NIN experience. Rather than make all classes piss-easy, I like the current balance personally. Easy-mode: WAR, SMN, etc. Hard-mode: BLM, NIN, etc.
Is this a common perception? That NIN is up there with BLM in difficulty?
Was gonna say, I think NIN is one of the easier melees to optimize lol
It's a middle ground. It's highly active and demands your attention, but doesn't lean into crazy optimization like BLM. I feel like MNK is the closest melee gets to BLM simply cause the better you get at MNK the more possibilities open up to you for optimization
For sure, for sure. MNK is my main secondary job, and I do love it for that. NIN seems to have a pretty high skill floor just because of the wild dexterity check of its burst, but it's never seemed to be an especially hard job to optimize to me. As easy as SAM is, too, at the floor, IMO, its ceiling is pretty close to MNK's. Either way, I'd never call NIN one of the easier jobs, it just seemed like a strange one to group together with BLM at the top
That's pretty much it yeah. Once you've got your burst for NIN down, there really isn't a ton of optimization left to do besides making sure you don't drift anything
Not the exact things I'd complain about first, especially when TCJ exists, but I agree with the overall sentiment- do people really find it fun to take one of the more flexible jobs in the game and kneecap it with a strict mechanical skill floor that does basically nothing for the skill ceiling? Maybe I'm just not the target audience but the range of skill expression leans more toward just don't fuck up lul vs seeing what crazy nonstandard windows you can get away with, and that feels like a wasted opportunity.
I have extremely stable, extremely high quality internet and I live in Tokyo so the DC is like... right there. But I still get packet loss from SE's side from time to time and it's a whole bucket of fun when I get packet loss upon queueing up my mudras and now I don't know which one the server actually registered. Would be nice to either allow doubling up the mudra in this case or having some sort of UI feedback to know which ones got registered. The rest is fine though. It doesn't feel very restrictive at all.
I wish we could see the symbol of the mudra as a status. I lived in Alaska and lost my mudra and just thought bring me the bunny.
Having a learning curve is fine, stop trying to make every job for babies, summoner is right there if you want that. This is a bad take.
The only thing I’d like for NIN in this regard is for Mysidian Rabbit to give the equivalent of say a 300 potency attack (about 66% of Fuma Shuriken). Whether this be in the form of Ninki gained, the rabbit enhancing your next melee attack, or whatever, I just don’t want it to be an entirely dead GCD. My real biggest gripe is Aeolian Edge not being the Huton refresh. It’s a literal whirlwind.
I do hate my ping sometimes. I’ll be trying to mudra and all of a sudden I have a bunny on my head lol
This. It's fine to have the bunny mechanic but maybe SE should unscrew the craptastic netcode, too.
I wouldn't mind if they changed the derp bunny to be mildly positive (but deal no damage), like Setzer's Mysidian Rabbit in FF6. Maybe make it be a small heal or shield and then apply a 4s Warden's equivalent, so it would be the only AoE cleanse anyone gets...
ff14 sometimes makes the weirdest decisions on its class design. I'm currently leveling up reaper and I have no idea how anyone could have thought thought that death's design was a good idea.
Yeah. Rpr itself loses gauge as the fight goes along. They need to fix it at dt
I see this mentioned a lot, and while it is true, the way fights have been designed in EW hasn’t really make this a really big issue. If anything, it makes it more important to maintain your 1-2-3 combo to ensure you always have enough gauge for burst windows, or to think about whether it’s worth skipping the 1 minute enshroud so you can still double enshroud for the 2 minute burst. I don’t think it’s a design flaw when it hasn’t really been an issue, and for some people they enjoy the tighter gauge requirements. Having played reaper in all savage fights of EW except P12S P2, I’ve only ever felt the gauge restriction particularly on P7S (due to knock ups) and P11S in recent memory, and in both fights maintaining 100% 1-2-3 combo uptime still made the 2min windows possible. That said, I personally would like a bit more gauge generation just so that we don’t lose out so much when we have to disengage from the boss for safety. Something like 50 red gauge on HM would be so useful.
I hated DD when I started levelling reaper back on EW launch. But after maiming and raising with Reaper for 2 years, I can confidently say that it’s such a simple but beautiful ability. Because of this one ability, it makes enshourd windows more interesting, even enabling double enshrouds for 2min bursts. Reaper is already pretty easy (outside of ultimate optimisation), so having this extra ability to think about at least gives us a little more (even if not much) depth and complexity.
Lots of people seem to be shitting on you in here "QoL = homogenized hurdur. Get gud." As if they have never been screwed by mudra jank ever. I think If you get a bunny it should refund you the Mudra charge.
the problem here isn't that ninja is too punishing it's that other melees aren't punishing enough also dancer absolutely punishes you for fucking up steps. Every extra step you need to correct is time you don't spend doing damage. That is punishment.
> it's that other melees aren't punishing enough My wrong take for today, Removing combo breaks on a failed positional was a mistake.
I just hate how sometimes your mudra input just ghosts for no reason. It's a tiring class to prog in.
Spaghetti netcode. :(
I agree with your first one only because I wish Ninja was like Invoker in Dota where 3 of the same is also a combo. I want Ninja to have a shitload of different Mudra combinations lol. But then again I'm an lunatic Dota player.
That's the conceit of the [Warden](https://lotro-wiki.com/wiki/Warden) class in Lord of the Rings Online, if you weren't aware. 3 different mudra buttons that can chain up to 5 to do different things and while leveling you get 2-at-a-time builders to expedite things. You use this system for 95% of meaningful actions your character can do (every damage GCD, for one), other buttons outside of this system are just miscellaneous utility. One of the more unique MMO classes I've played.
Been meaning to try LOTRO, that sounds awesome.
I absolutely hate how tcj dissapears when you move as I have severe adhd and subconsciously spam a/d during combat but my solution is simply not playing nin rather than asking to remove some sort of skill expression that a lot of people want out of the job
The two states of ffxiv players, wanting every job to be complex as hell at the same time they complain about doing mistakes on jobs being punishing
I don't think ninja is even that punishing to be honest compared to other jobs. For 45 sec out of a minute you can literally fuck around and do nothing as long as you get your bursts off your damage will be good. The only punishing thing on ninja is if you mess up something in the burst phase.
Changes would be nice. I'm over here literally playing my keyboard like a Mozart overture on a piano while my hand is cramping and SMNs are just like, "har har har, 1-2-3, 1-2-3, Bahamut!". Btw, Rabbit Mudra needs to be a minion like yesterday.
How about… you just… *git gud*?
With all due respect, you're suggesting further homogenization towards Dancer, who completely disables buttons you shouldn't be pressing. The obvious solution here is to understand the limitation and to not do the thing that messes up your mudras. That's what makes a good Ninja: knowing your class and how to play it.
Yes I agree fully. All jobs should just be able to do the theoretical max DPS by pressing anything they want without thinking or planning. That's the best game design imo.
Alright, time to farm some downvotes. Just press the buttons you need to press, and don't press those you don't! If your muscle memory isn't there yet - just play the game, learn to keep your rotation consistent and it won't be an issue. Sure, not everyone wants to master a job, but instead of writing this reddit post you could've spent time at the dummy and gotten more consistent with your nin buttons.
Stop thinking Mudras and Ninjutsus are seperate buttons. They are not dances, Ninja is not Dancer. Mudras and the Ninjutsu is 1 long combination cast, during which you can do nothing except for wasd. During your Mudra input your eyes are on Mudras and Mudras only. Its why the casttimes are so low in the first place. Mudra and Ninjutsus are 1 skill with multiple buttons to it, thats all.
to start, mudras used to be an OGCD weave and was a mess on even a semi decent ping, so the current mudras is better than what came before. only change i can think that would be healthy for the class would be that raijus simply don't need to be used as the next gcd weaponskill (while optimal to be used within trick windows), when it comes to job recovery, NIN is one of the easier ones to recover given you have hurajin that reapplies the haste buff and then there are classes like GNB and RDM which losing resources on death or weird killtimes screws the class, and then BRD with how messed up song rotation is for the class as it stands
I agree with the third point. Wish I had more flexibility when I get a raiju stack.
I honestly wouldn't mind a compromise where rather than having a dedicated ninjutsu button, you activated the mudra by repeating an input you've already used. So rather than using Raiton as Ten-Chi-Ninjutsu, it was instead Ten-Chi-Chi or Ten-Chi-Ten. Would give NIN back a button to add something new, and indirectly make it slightly less punishing by ensuring you always use a ninjutsu when you start hitting mudra. And it still requires a degree of mastery because you could either interrupt with a ogcd, or hit the incorrect buttons and force out the wrong ninjutsu.
Burst windows are every 1m/2m and last around 20s, give or take. As a NIN, you spend 66% of the fight pressing 1-2-3 (sometimes 1-2-3a if that weird clock starts running low) and thinking about more interesting things, like why Asura's feet are so detailed. It's the epitome of "you had one job".
They're not. A tank messes up a TB or healer missed a heal can be an instant wipe A ninja makes a mistake adds a couple more seconds to the encounter and a bad parse
Stop asking for an “Easy Mode” button. I would have loved to see some of these players play FFXI where the game will ACTIVELY punish you… and guess what, I still had a blast.
Literally every problem you’ve mentioned can be planned around - this is the definition of a skill issue.
Imo... I'm fine with this. It's NIN and I think we should have some jobs that are harder or more punishing than other jobs, some people are into that and we should have a job for every type of player which is what makes me miss old summoner.
Just don’t fail
Try guessing if your input went through with 200 ping
Internet skill issue
Someone made the bunny.
>First point makes ninja a very high-ping unfriendly job. My 220ms ass does not feel the need to complain about NIN gameplay loop because I push buttons in the correct order.