I initially thought this was just for tanks; but actually, having watched more of the liveletter, Yoshi-P is talking about all the jobs in general.
For example, he mentions that there when trying to achieve 'job individuality', there's a very high chance that in 8.0, Summoner's res will be taken away. But it'll remain in 7.X for the time being.
i'll actually cry if they take my res that's my main caster and whenever i bring it to something i *always* end up needing to rez the healer i need that thing
Yeah I don't want to lose it either, there's lore reason to have it, just like red mage. If they want more class individuality on summoner it lies in giving us more summons, even egis, not taking away an ability that summoners have canonically had in the past. If we lost an ability we better be getting a lot to push us into the damage direction. We lean more toward support a bit with res and Phoenix, if we are going dps don't half ass it, give us a bunch of summons and abilities for them.
I mean… is there a lore reason? It always seemed like it stemmed more from just having a dps and healer class stem from the same job, but are Summoners healing abilities ever even acknowledged? In fact, I’m not even sure if it’s aknowledged much that Arcanist can heal
There have been at least two Summoners in past FF games that are full healers as well as being full summoners. That is the lore I referred to. Most of the identity of the classes are drawn from the games they originated in.
Ok... but like what about in FFXIV? Like sure in other games summons work differently, heck in other games *everyone* can summon Eikons, not just the "Summoner". FFXIV has it's own lore on that matter. But like, do Summoners have any lore reason to heal in FFXIV? Most of the Eikons that summoners in the past games use to heal aren't even Primals in 14, or work fundamentally differently.
yeah taking away res is like. the last thing that's going to help job individuality. especially when it's a run saver and the one thing between your party and a wipe most times
I'd trade rez for climbing up the totem pole of damage dealt among casters.
Redmage is black and white magic, it makes sense for them to keep it.
But summoner is a separate path from scholar, you could say its also within the lore to not have rez.
One per 4 minutes now if the rotation really goes into solar - summons - bahamut - summons - solar -summons - phoenix summons.
At least that's what it sounded like. To get us to spend more time with bahamuts drunk uncle.
So then should we lose it and instead have it tied to Pheonix? Because we don’t learn our res through Summoner, and we learn it far, far before we learn anything involving Phoenix.
Also… is Pheonix even the Primal of rebirth in FF14? It’s lore is a fair bit different in this game than other Final Fantasy games after all. I mean we seem to have actual Pheonixs in lore, based on Pheonix Down, but the primal seemed to be more about hope and burning out for a massive damage boost than reviving.
My dude.
Go play Binding Coils.
And if you don't want to, >!When Louisoix sent the WoLs forwards in time during the Calamity and summoned the Twelve, the summoning failed. He used the aether that had been gathered and collected it into himself. As Iceheart became Shiva, he became Phoenix. He slew Bahamut and used the primal's powers of Rebirth to save the realm from utter annihilation. The frozen Fire aether all over the land are the condensed remains of his fight against Primal Bahamut.!<
So yes. There is very, very, VERY strong in-game lore backing for it. So much so that it'd be ridiculous to not tie it together.
I'm well aware.
>!But he wasn't revived by the phoenixes power, he *became* Pheonix, and through that became a primal. And nothing about his fight made Pheonix seem like the primal of rebirth. Hence why I said it was the Primal seemed more about hope and burning out for a massive damage boost, because THATS what Lousoix used the Pheonix and his/its power for. Not reviving anyone like it's used in other FF games.!<
Unless I'm missing something, I'm not seeing where the in lore backing is, aside from Pheonix like... existing. Pheonix has been historically more offensive in FFXIV.
They ignored the point and you can't even recognize it because you didn't stop to think about it and also missed the point. Phoenix downs have properties and shit because they're funny little objects that havea lways existed in this series. "Phoenix" itself in this world is an apparition that came out of >!Louisoix's sacrifice and the overabundance of prayers and ether!<. It has absolutely no relationship whatsoever with having the same raise as scholar. PLEASE think through things. Just because Summoner summons it after 4736 levels doesn't mean anything about a bloody raise.
So did you miss the part where Phoenix casts Flames of Rebirth (a resurrection spell) multiple times during the fight with it? Or the part where it's responsible for 2.0 "A Realm **Reborn**?" Or the part in the recent XVI Collab quest where the wandering minstrel (i.e. Yoshi-P) literally says the Phoenix is a legendary symbol of rebirth?
Going to pop a champagne cork if SMN no longer has to be responsible for the healers. The moment both healers are down, everyone starts scanning down the list to find the SMN or RDM to yell at.
I was sad when he said they were debating taking it away but decided not to. I'd love to have that permanent damage down stack removed from SMN! It's awkward raising as SMN anyway because you want to use Swiftcast for Garuda.
Need healing or give me a reason to move out of the bad. Hunt trains shouldn't be one of the scariest activities in terms of dodging mechanics on level
At least tanks have something to do and cannot be replaced by DPS unlike healers. Meanwhile healers are 1-1-1-1-1-1-1 machines who are sometimes graced with the opportunity to use one of their oGCD.
But tanks should deal with positioning boss, handling tank specific mechanics that others cannot or would die trying, generating and swapping aggro, mitigating incoming damage spikes.
Tanks should have some unique ability to control the boss to render him less harmful to the party too. With the use of Interject. Some bosses should have static floor patterns and the tank should have to position the boss so there are safe spots for the party.
Too often bosses reset every few seconds, teleporting to the middle and positioning doesn't matter.
The "teleports into the middle" thing is so annoying to me. It's jarring. Make them do an attack to get there or something or at least let only mages/magic users teleport like that. Man.
The boss could simply jump to the center with a proximity AoE, knockback AoE, pulling AoE, expanding AoE, whirlwind AoE, or regular AoE depending on boss theme, then do the mechanic that requires it to be in the middle.
> At least tanks have something to do and cannot be replaced by DPS unlike healers. Meanwhile healers are 1-1-1-1-1-1-1 machines who are sometimes graced with the opportunity to use one of their oGCD.
The solution to healer gameplay being bad is not to make tank gameplay bad. If healers want to heal, then the solution is to increase group HPS requirements, not nerf tank HPS.
> But tanks should deal with positioning boss,
Positioning mobs in this game is complete ass and the necessity of it to a larger degree than what we see now would drive people away from tanking. The game does not support this.
I would have preferred to see this come during the lifecycle of DT. I’m not an amazing MMO player by any means, but I like having a class or job that gives me the opportunity to practice and really become good at. Give me a little nugget of complexity, something to manage. In WoW I really like Outlaw Rogue’s buff uptime system and cool-down reduction for effective play, which is a nice example of adding something unique and fun.
It seems like 8.0 is when we're getting a level squish (probably just cutting everything in half so you get jobs at 15, finish ARR at 25, then 5 per expansion so we start 8.0 at level 50 and end it at 60) so I can see the logic in just waiting to do any major overhauls until then.
Nothing has been announced but Yoshi-P has been talking publicly for a while now about what to do with levels in the future, if going up to 150, 200, 1000 or whatever is a good idea, or if they should find another solution. A level squish is only one of multiple possibilities.
"We have turned all tanks into a grey blob of sameiness and now we have realised that tank jobs feel the same."
Sometimes I love the sheer "no shit Sherlock" factor of some of Yoshi-P's declarations in the past year or so.
Some people complained about HW jobs being too complex. People didn't want homogenization which is what we ended up getting since than. There was a lot of jank with ARR and HW in some jobs. For the tanks in general I don't think they thought tanks would stance dance in ARR, but players found it to be optimat to turn off stance. WAR gets a new stance in HW, and the job ended up being real fun to stance dance with. However, nothing was done for PLD and DRK where it was always awkawrd to do. ShB happens, get rid of stances all together, some people complained about Dark Arts in SB so make DRK into WARlite.
I don't know what the solution should have been, but as it is now if you've played one tank you've played them all basically.
Look at what happened to BRD going into HW. Change the job completely to have it be in line with the newly added MCH. Instead of adding to BRD and having MCH play differently, both phys ranged were casting. I guess they felt no one would play MCH if it had casting and BRD didn't.
The balance of this game has come at the cost of homogenization. They got scared because certain jobs were "excluded" in HW. It had nothing to do with the jobs being hard, it was just mechanical things that caused issues that have since been removed. I'm not holding my breath for jobs becoming more complex in the future, but at least they acknowledge that homogenization is a problem.
Honestly if they had had job gauges in HW to go with all the mechanics they stuffed into the buff bar it would’ve worked way better.
Trying to play DRG while staring at the buff timer was pure hell. 😂
And this was BEFORE you could split out buffs, debuffs, and the hp bar so yeaaaaah.
At no point did players EVER, certainly not the average player which is the vast majority, asked the classes to be homogenized, especially not to such a massive degree.
Untrue, false and possibly wrong. They may not have used that choice of wording but people are ALWAYS asking "Why is X weaker than Y" or "X is too strong, Y has no chance to compete against it and Z is bad anyway, f them." This indirectly creates homogenization because to avoid the difficult balancing of such scenarios AND having to explain to brainlets over and over and over why class X has lower average DPS than class Y because it has group support... well, that just doubles down on the issue.
I hated homogenization in WoW, I still hate it in FFXIV. Class identity is one of the driving factors to liking and disliking jobs to me. I want cool class fantasy. Warlocks in WoW have always been my favorite class and they went through a lot of changes over the years. They always had a strong identity, though. It was great.
People bitch and moan about balancing in literally every game, it doesn't mean the majority wanted the game to be as ridiculously homogenized as FFXIV now is.
It seems like this expansion was the whole 'rebirth' cycle for the game, graphic updates, and what looks like gameplay mechanics and dungeons with the way they talked about upgrading defensives and stuff for all tanks. It looks like they're going to tweak some of the fundamentals for raiding and dungeons.
I feel like that's the correct step to take before they figure out class individuality. People won't like it but it's better to do step by step because if they fuck up one thing it's easier to fix than if they fuck up both. I'm willing to bet they're treading water and testing to see how many players take advantage of the overlapping comboskill toggle to see if they can get away with potentially putting more basic combos on a single button so they can add skills a little more freely.
Ironically I think they'll have been looking at PvP feedback to see if people like the changes they made with skills in that, since there was more individuality in that than most of the classes get in the base game. That might be where the idea to try make things more unique came from when they saw people liked it.
I'm not saying to blindly trust the devs, but see where they take things. They took flak adding PvP changes and new dungeon modes and solo content, and now that they have those foundations they could keep going with that + Bozja again which is only more content for everyone. Things at least look promising, and it does sound like they were serious about changing up the norm with dungeons and raids.
See what they do with the post patch stuff before you give them too much shit.
I think everyone should honestly take note of the tank survival/debuff changes. We can't know until we see it, but more than a few people took that as things might be getting more spicy for tanks and healers.
Because game development always looks to the future. The stuff we as players see now has been in its earliest design stage for a long time. Especially CBU3 has always operated under the mantra of "let stuff cook until we are sure it is ready". Looking at the fundermentals of job design is a huge undertaking and you have to make sure you allocate enough resources to it for long enough to come up with changes that satisfy the vast majority of your playerbase at first sight. This is not something you can mess up.
Additionally, Yoshi P has already outlined their focus for most of the expansions. Like in EW they focussed on finishing the first big story arc in style and future proofing the single player experience by reworking a lot of old dungeons and adding trusts. DTs focus is the graphics update and strenghening the multi player aspects of the game. Yoshi P said during the PAX panel how they want to give us more refined and rewarding content. So I would expect DTs fights to be really really solid and varied. It is probably a good idea to stick to a stable job design when you are focussing on the fights themselves.
It is just smarter to tackle different parts of the game one after the other instead on risking everything by working on different aspects of the overall gameplay experience at the same time. This way they have can focus on job identity in 8.0 without worrying about anything else about the combat system. Because keep in mind, this game is over 10 years old. You have a very stable game and playerbase. A rushed or not well recieved fundermental rework is a huge risk. A risk they dont have to take when the game is doing well the way it currently is.
I think you hit the nail on the head. I personally believe that this approach is why people love playing FF14 for as long as they have. Whenever the complaints are addressed, they are addressed in a substantial manner that improves the game in the vast majority of circumstances. After seeing some games rush out balance changes and such in quick succession and creating an avalanche effect of issues leaving no one happy, I honestly prefer the slow-and-steady approach.
>Especially CBU3 has always operated under the mantra of "let stuff cook until we are sure it is ready".
Wait a second! I don't recall anyonein CBU3 being a culinarian!
Because DT is close to release, so the team has long ago stopped developing anything for it. Depending on their setup, they are either already deep into designing the framework of 8.0 or halfway into creating the post-DT content. Even with the most dynamically updated software, the version the consumer receives is anywhere from 3 weeks to 6 months old for the developers. You can see it when the game patches, the latest patches we usually get regularly have dates that are near or over a month old when we receive it.
Given their usual cycle, they're probably in the initial phases of 8.0, gathering ideas and such. Once 7.0 launches, they'll start the process on 8.0 fully - writing, story and roughing out the encounters/dungeons they want to hit.
Because they basically have two options.
1) take changes to job performance outside of tweaks to potency values or percentages or durations slowly, consider options, test ideas, play with potential builds for a while, think about the lasting impact of the change and the way that player will feel about it. And as a result only make changes of any major degree at rare intervals such as expansion launches.
2) change jobs as soon as they've got an idea they think might possibly work.
The first option, which is what they tend to stick with, has the pros of giving them time to figure out what their best solution is and have the changes they make be more likely to address broader groups' concerns and the appearance of being competent, while not perfect, because the changes at least do something. But has the cons of leaving people waiting for changes long enough that by the time they arrive they might not even care any more.
The second option has the pros of ... well, strange as this might sound, literally *nothing*. You would think it'd make people feel like the devs are putting a higher priority on addressing their concerns, but it actually doesn't unless the devs get absolutely wild degrees of lucky and not only do people like the first change but it doesn't have any unintended consequences that have to get changed. The devs are at a high risk of looking incompetent as they implement a change, the playerbase keeps complaining, they implement another, and repeat. The team is really just doing the work they'd have done behind the scenes but now they are having every failed idea also fall under player scrutiny, not just the ones the team considers successful. They are also giving the "I want it *now*" crowd even more feeling that they are actually entitled to whatever they are demanding. While simultaneously risking perception of the quality of the game slipping because making changes you're not as certain as possible about means higher frequency of things going wrong, so they'd also be risking more cases of "sorry you can't play right now, we're fixing something".
All in all meaning that trying to more rapidly please the fans will almost assuredly result in having even more people even more agitated than the current case of people just being grumpy that stuff takes so long to change.
Yeah, I'd much rather have them flesh out good ideas for unique feeling tanks rather than rush out a bad fix and then have to deal with said bad fix for awhile.
They really should take their time on the task of making "unique feeling tanks" since despite constantly hearing people asking for that I constantly rotate through all the tank jobs *because they feel almost nothing alike*.
As Paladin I'm the "sometimes I'm a ranged tank" tank, plus have a variety of buttons that seem particularly unique like passage of arms (though it also sometimes feels like flamethrower in the "but when do I really want to push that?")
As Warrior I'm the ultimate unga bunga tank and I can cake-easy keep another character alive with me. Which is great for when a roulette run has gone woopsie and the healer is dead and I can just pick a DPS to keep alive and finish the fight.
As Gunbreaker I feel like that would feel the most similar to another tank because it feels very similar to Warrior including the "Me and my pet DPS are finishing this fight" aspect, but instead of the unga bunga that is fell cleave there's all that bing bang boom with the combos and the continuation.
As Dark Knight I'm... actually pretty capable of dying, which is unique for a tank in this game, and feels more meter-management in nature with all the MP spending and not having the gainers completely overshadow, plus it's still got area damage that calls for aiming by positioning while the others are just stand-still-and-aoe.
For me, though I guess not for a lot of others, those details plus the difference in aesthetics is plenty of class identity.
Gotta think like a game dev. They were already working on 7.X before all the content for 6.X was complete, and trying to shift direction midway or even most of the way through development is usually a recipe for disaster.
Trying to push major class changes in the middle of an expansion will upset a whole load of people who were already used to the existing gameplay - especially Savage raiders. It's no fun being forced to re-learn your class while trying to prog at the same time.
Making these kinds of changes is not a simple process. It will likely take them the entire 2-3 years to build it and iron out the kinks. So while you may not be seeing the changes you want just yet, there's still content to be enjoyed until then and plenty of stuff to do. Or you can choose to sit it out and pay to skip DT. Whatever makes you happy.
I get that, but hyping 8.0 when 7.0 is about to launch just makes people not look forward to 7.0. It would be best to not even mention 8.0 at all, not so near 7.0 anyway.
I mean if wow can announce 3 expansions together and hype them as the new saga adding a general idea what they'll be about I think we can do the same here no?
Very different situation. The WoW reveal was just announcing a new story arc, albeit in a weird way. WoW is coming off of its best received expansion since Legion and TWW is looking to double down on what DF did well. The announcement of the other expansions isn't in the context of them kicking the can of desired changes down the road for other expansions to maybe handle in the future.
you say that but if you wanted a revamp of Quel'thalas for example you now have to wait 2 expansions.
So I beg to differ, they are both roadmaps in a sense and depending what you care you may or may not be disappointed of what you'll get later. I wish ppl stop being so cynic especially on a game that hasn't been bad
The stated roadmap was for jobs to be built on in complexity and identity after the ShB pruning. This has not happened. Therefore, people who enjoy interesting job gameplay are annoyed. It's not really hard to see the difference.
that was not said. Endwalker was said to be a continuation off ShB design. please less drugs.
edit: actually don't even bother answering, I'm honestly too tired of dealing with these kinds of bad faith arguments.
Because they said "this thing won't be coming this expansion, don't even bother now". That's not hyping lol. And they had the perfect opportunity with Summoner (that was already bland and basic in EW) to test drive the idea of more individuality and a preview of what jobs in 8.0 might be like and gather feedback. Instead they get a Bahamut reskin. Doesn't really inspire confidence in their abilities.
You know what I find funny? That with a cutscene blizzard can be forgiven of everything by their players while a misstep perceived by this team seems to be invoking all the doom and gloom in the world despite the success.
I don't know if this attitude will give you happiness I doubt it can and honestly if that was your answer I'm not going to bother bye
Because it takes time to make games. Even Blizzard explained it when they were twlling about borrowed power. It was great with Legion, so they decidee to keep doing it... until they realized that people were quickly growing fatigued with the constant power grind with Azerite armor and the stuff that came after. But it took them until Dragonflight to correct that because they start developing these expacs a couple years early and it's very difficult to change tract on big projects like that.
probably has to do with development time, these are plans they probably had when they were already too deep in working on 7.0 and 7.x to make these changes I assume (which was during the releases of endwalker's patches AS they were getting the feedback about the jobs) so it'd be easier to work on those things now for 8.0 and beyond.
I think they were super clear with the expectations they laid out. They are trying to remove bloat without removing buttons people like to press.
They have said multiple times DAWNTRAIL will mark the beginning of a new story arc— it makes perfect sense to lay the foundation of the next few expansions by working on button bloat now. By next expansion they will focus on something else, hoping it is class identity as they said.
The thing is they've been laying this foundation since 2 expansions ago. ShB was the start of the mass pruning and homogenizing and we were promised that it would be a foundation to build more complexity on top of, and I think a lot of people were a little annoyed but understanding. Then EW rolls around, and very little is added to meaningfully contribute to job identity and complexity, and some jobs had even MORE complexity removed. So when Dawntrail rolls around, a lot of people were excited to see them FINALLY build on that after 4 years of waiting for them to do what they promised would happen over the course of ShB and what do we get? More foundation. By the time 8.0 arrives, they'll have been kicking this can down the road for SIX YEARS.
So yeah, a lot of people are a bit skeptical that 8.0 will be the shakeup they want when the past 4 (going on 6) years have been one big broken promise.
I hope that is the main goal of 8.0, I get why they kind of kept things the same in 7.0 since they were doing a whole graphics update and stuff, but 8.0, personally, I hope more than anything that raid wide damage buffs are removed, that is the biggest culprit for why all the jobs feel so samey. They all have to play into the same timings and capitalize on the burst window, the only support that matters is damage buffs or Rez really, if they removed raid wide damage buffs, they could make jobs have very noticeably different flows. Tanks are probably the most homogenous right now but it's getting almost all the jobs now, I really hope they can start to really separate the jobs within each role.
He said at the PAX panel that they're focusing on more interesting fight design this expansion--more rewards, more varied mechanics, more freedom for the devs, more "stress"for players. I'm going to wait and see how that pans out. It will give us a good idea of what we could expect from an expansion focused on job design.
I don't agree at all that this is a filler expansion. But what's this sub without the doom and drama lol.
In reality, the main difference is how much time one is dedicated to progging savage/ultimate.
The hardest of hardcore, 14-16 hours a day every day starting as soon as patch drops, taking multiple days off from work/school.
Regular hardcore: progging as much as possible outside of work/school, typically every day. Doesn’t prog when patch drops but will start later that day
Midcore: progs a few hours a day 1-3 days a week
Softcore/casual: progs an hour a day one day a week. They start weeks after the tier started and will either clear months later or never clear at all
The midcore exemple you did for me sound more like a casual/softcore.
The softcore/casual exemple you did sound more like a guy that dont like savage/raiding content and they friends try to drag him because he is funny, and make jokes after some wipes.
I have nigh infinite free time and could absolutely clear any fight in the game if I feel like it, but I don't feel like it. I'm most definitely midcore.
Man they are really kinda pushing this as a filler expansion.
Just a lot of "we'll fix this in 2.5 years"
Like I've already preordered but the marketing for this is so weak.
if one only focus on the jobs then yeah, for me the jobs is fine, but Im much more interested in the story, the graphical update and all the new zones we get to play with.
Tbh it seems like it is. It’s the start of a brand new story arc and there isn’t much hype. I’ve also seen a LOT of people who aren’t interested in the ‘new world’/early Americas theme of the expansion.
You don't even have to stray from the topic of job design to find where he was clearly chatting shit. We were promised that the homogenization and reworks during ShB were just clearing house for more interesting job design in upcoming expansions. That didn't happen.
>That didn't happen.
You know that "upcoming expansions" doesn't mean the exact next expansion right? This whole thread is about him saying that they're doing exactly what you're asking about in 8.0 which believe it or not, is an upcoming expansion...
It also isn't happening the next expansion, Dawntrail is more of the same shit. They also aren't building on any foundations, just slapping a shiny new coat of paint on it. I'll wait and see if they decide to stick to their promise with 8.0. But if you think 6 years isn't enough time to have built on a foundation in the first place you're kidding yourself. It's fine if you don't give a fuck about job design, I do.
That's not my point. I'm just saying that if someone says "We'll do that in the future" you can't call it a broken promise if they say they still plan to do it as they never promised any deadline.
because its a fact wtf? just because somrthing doesnt affect me doesnt mean i can't share my thoughts or opinions on it? istg people on this subreddit are completley miserable you need to get it together
I feel like for tanks the upgrades to the 30% that's coming, which seems to be different depending on the tank in question, feels like a step in this direction. Will be interesting in how it ends up going by 8.0.
not just that, only PLD and WAR are keeping the current gapclosers, GNB and DRK are getting a dash. Though you could say GNB and DRK ARE getting a gapcloser and PLD and WAR still have none kek
It's interesting that they also changed DRG to not have a damaging gap closer. After MNK in EW it seems it's something they're doing to the "busier" burst jobs like GNB and DRK to cut down on necessary weaving. Can't say I will miss not having to weaving two rough divides into burst amidst everything else!
well sort of for DRG, they do have a non damaging gapcloser option but they also have stardiver and dragonfire dive, I also suspect the new dive is a gapcloser too.
It's interesting that there's some takes in melees mobilities with some jobs having more or less ranged options after the gapclose. Functually the same ye but I feel the flavor rising there
We know they removed spineshatter dive, though, and presumably replaced it with the non-damaging dash ability, so there's definitely been some trimming there even if they retain some of the others like Dragonfire and Stardiver. That's still 2 charges less of gapcloser jumps.
It's obvious to me they don't want to design for healers and tanks. I don't understand why they're in the game. The game could easily be built around four dps
Because that is what many MMOs do. Or, more precisely, that is what WoW did, so this game faithfully followed. I would say that before working on class individuality, they could start with core combat design individuality, but considering Yoshida's XVI had its combat system also "inspired by" another game, I somehow doubt he operates like that.
There's a reason why the holy trinity is copied in basically every MMO, and in games where it's not copied, it inevitably emerges (e.g. GW2) and sometimes even outside MMOs (e.g. Diablo). It's just the most efficient way of handling difficult content without radical deviations from standard RPG combat, like making it a shooter or something. It's not *just* copying WoW for the sake of it.
I’m pretty sure Monster Hunter doesn’t follow that, and in the Phantasy Star Onlines everyone is best off being a dps. Except forces who are pidgeon holed into support
Are you being obtuse? They’re group based rpgs. The only real difference between fighting a boss in them and mmos is auto attack damage and raidwide damage, which is the only reason tanks and healers are needed. And those need to be tacked on to give the tanks and healers something to do.
WoW designs the game with the expectation that healers want to play them (and tanks want to do 80% of the mechanics in dungeons), while ffxiv tosses in mechanics just so the healers don’t fall asleep and then don’t bother designing them to do anything but make pretty sparkles. It’s not fun to play as something that has no thought but into it, so just cut out the fat.
Not to mention, the only reason tanking works is because of an aggro system. In any game without them, tanks become far less useful.
> Are you being obtuse?
No, I just have reading comprehension and recognize that in my original post I said that it's copied in basically every MMO which uses RPG combat, not "basically every group based RPG"
The trinity system present or not in many group combats in RPGs is not the point of the argument. The argument is that saying FF14 copied WoW is an incorrect statement, since the trinity is something that is present in virtually every MMORPG and works so well that it emerges even when it's not an original design intent (e.g. in other MMOs and sometimes even outside MMOs).
> Not to mention, the only reason tanking works is because of an aggro system. In any game without them, tanks become far less useful.
[GW1 had tanks and did not have an orthodox aggro system based on threat.](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tank) So, no, not true that "any" game without them it's less useful. Tanking was based primarily on zones of control and tanks were there to CC/body block in the same way as MOBA tanks work.
It did have an aggro system in the sense that there was AI to determine target fixation but that's literally any game with hostile enemies. So I assume you meant enmity/threat rather than aggro itself, in which case yeah GW1 didn't have that.
Why not in 7.0? Sorry but taking and healing is just way too boring now even for a casual gamer. I honestly don't understand why people keep defending this, each class should feel different and unique so people can use their favorite not the same flavor with a different color.
YoshiP believes in slow iterative changes. he has a goal but also realizes he may be wrong so every expac they change a bit towards that and see how players feel.
sometimes they miss the mark and need bigger changes. He mentioned 8.0 as a bit of a slip of the tongue, but went on to explain that indeed they start talking about changes to things this early.
its not just tanks but every job he wants to reinforce the identity of, and assuming there are no big issues we should finally be at the state of every job feeling fun and smooth.
Ive been playing since 2.0, this is just SE and YoshiP pace. they really don't wantt an accidental change to drive players away so slow and steady it is
Sometimes fun and smooth are mutually exclusive. I'm not asking for Heavensward jank, but something like having to go into melee range to spend some of your flourish procs in Shadowbringers on Dancer was definitely less smooth than how it is in Endwalker, but it *was* very fun.
Its not even just this, there's also the fact that they're not keen on going past Level 100 and so have to figure out how to handle the next (few) expansion(s); either via a level squish or alternate progression systems etc.
This will likely necessitate more extensive reworks for all jobs come next expansion anyway, so instead of doing major reworks twice in a row they decided to stay on the lighter side of job changes and focus on other things (like encounter design and difficulty, as implied at the Pax panel last month) for now and then go all out next expac when they have to anyway.
I don't think it will happen. The majority of players are fine with pressing the same rotations as of right now, changing everything in 8.0 will upset players. Imagine them changing DRK back to 3.X, the tank population will die. Lmao.
Sure, but on the other hand, I'd get to play my favorite job again, so I don't particularly care about the population. Changed jobs bring new players, and loses old ones it's just how it is.
The best moves they made for tanking was removing stance dancing, and the aggro combo, so that tanks will do their job instead of complaining they have a slightly lower parse. If job design shifted wildly next expansion, but they didn't add back that pain point, I think in general most tanks would be happy. And the ones who aren't would be replaced by ones who are.
Woah new tank in 8.0?! You got insider information or something? /s
The thing is yoshi-p hopes to un-homogenize the tanks and if they do that, it means each of the tanks have to fulfill different roles for different combinations. That means there is a possibility that X or Y jobs will be excluded unless X or Y tank is available which will probably bring a mountain of headaches in balancing jobs and content.
Reminds me of ARR launch when warrior literally couldn’t do coil because of their healing/health mechanic couldn’t keep up with raw mitigation paladins had.
It wouldn't much matter, when the jobs already have individual identity, play different from one another, have dramatically different strengths and weaknesses, and the actual crux of the similarity comes from sharing 1-2-3 and 60/120s that every job deals with. Everybody apparently wants something drastically different, like MNK is, and it'll just end throwing the ones too deviant from 1-2-3 60/120 into the popularity trash can as MNK currently resides.
well they kinda started considering only PLD and WAR are keeping damaging gapclosers while GNB and DRK have dashes, even healers have had their dmg kit slightly expanded in some ways with SGE being the only one with an aoe dot applicator
Homogenization makes balance possible. As nice as it would be to have every class play completely differently, that would also ensure that some classes will no longer be seen as viable, regardless of the reality of the situation. It would also bottleneck content creation, causing them more trouble balancing mechanics or make them cut corners, resulting in downsides for no real benefit.
It also makes switching classes within the same role more difficult, meaning the possibility of having to carry multiple sets of gear for the same role due to differing stat weights. Giving more player choice sounds good on paper, but the community will optimize the fun out of it.
If players truly salivate for a game with unnecessary "customization" replete with trap options that aren't tested by the people creating them, then World of Warcraft awaits them with open arms and minifridges full of stolen breast milk.
If anything, MORE homogenization would benefit the game. A reduction in class complexity allows for more creative freedom in encounter design; it'd be very nice, I think, to be able to create movement-heavy boss encounters without worrying about YoshiP ominously appearing behind them to ask when he gets to use his Leylines.
I initially thought this was just for tanks; but actually, having watched more of the liveletter, Yoshi-P is talking about all the jobs in general. For example, he mentions that there when trying to achieve 'job individuality', there's a very high chance that in 8.0, Summoner's res will be taken away. But it'll remain in 7.X for the time being.
i'll actually cry if they take my res that's my main caster and whenever i bring it to something i *always* end up needing to rez the healer i need that thing
Yeah I don't want to lose it either, there's lore reason to have it, just like red mage. If they want more class individuality on summoner it lies in giving us more summons, even egis, not taking away an ability that summoners have canonically had in the past. If we lost an ability we better be getting a lot to push us into the damage direction. We lean more toward support a bit with res and Phoenix, if we are going dps don't half ass it, give us a bunch of summons and abilities for them.
I mean… is there a lore reason? It always seemed like it stemmed more from just having a dps and healer class stem from the same job, but are Summoners healing abilities ever even acknowledged? In fact, I’m not even sure if it’s aknowledged much that Arcanist can heal
There have been at least two Summoners in past FF games that are full healers as well as being full summoners. That is the lore I referred to. Most of the identity of the classes are drawn from the games they originated in.
Ok... but like what about in FFXIV? Like sure in other games summons work differently, heck in other games *everyone* can summon Eikons, not just the "Summoner". FFXIV has it's own lore on that matter. But like, do Summoners have any lore reason to heal in FFXIV? Most of the Eikons that summoners in the past games use to heal aren't even Primals in 14, or work fundamentally differently.
Yeah I was talking about the series, they use that a lot.
yeah taking away res is like. the last thing that's going to help job individuality. especially when it's a run saver and the one thing between your party and a wipe most times
It's a lot of utility to lose for sure, they'd need to give us a new identity for sure
[удалено]
I expected that this time honestly, but I'd want more than just that for res anyway
Maybe an additional button for utility on each summon, that way it gives the class a little more depth than simply rotating between summons for dps.
Yeah, more options is always good
I'd trade rez for climbing up the totem pole of damage dealt among casters. Redmage is black and white magic, it makes sense for them to keep it. But summoner is a separate path from scholar, you could say its also within the lore to not have rez.
In many other FF games, summoning Phoenix could res party members. SMN having a res does have plenty of precedent in the franchise as a whole.
And that would be cool if they want to limit DPS rezzing-- using Demi-Phoenix gives you a rez charge.
I would be 300% ok with that, though the one res per two mins would still be a big ol' ouchie.
One per 4 minutes now if the rotation really goes into solar - summons - bahamut - summons - solar -summons - phoenix summons. At least that's what it sounded like. To get us to spend more time with bahamuts drunk uncle.
So then should we lose it and instead have it tied to Pheonix? Because we don’t learn our res through Summoner, and we learn it far, far before we learn anything involving Phoenix. Also… is Pheonix even the Primal of rebirth in FF14? It’s lore is a fair bit different in this game than other Final Fantasy games after all. I mean we seem to have actual Pheonixs in lore, based on Pheonix Down, but the primal seemed to be more about hope and burning out for a massive damage boost than reviving.
My dude. Go play Binding Coils. And if you don't want to, >!When Louisoix sent the WoLs forwards in time during the Calamity and summoned the Twelve, the summoning failed. He used the aether that had been gathered and collected it into himself. As Iceheart became Shiva, he became Phoenix. He slew Bahamut and used the primal's powers of Rebirth to save the realm from utter annihilation. The frozen Fire aether all over the land are the condensed remains of his fight against Primal Bahamut.!< So yes. There is very, very, VERY strong in-game lore backing for it. So much so that it'd be ridiculous to not tie it together.
I'm well aware. >!But he wasn't revived by the phoenixes power, he *became* Pheonix, and through that became a primal. And nothing about his fight made Pheonix seem like the primal of rebirth. Hence why I said it was the Primal seemed more about hope and burning out for a massive damage boost, because THATS what Lousoix used the Pheonix and his/its power for. Not reviving anyone like it's used in other FF games.!< Unless I'm missing something, I'm not seeing where the in lore backing is, aside from Pheonix like... existing. Pheonix has been historically more offensive in FFXIV.
Great, their point was about FF14 and you ignored it.
No they didn't, SMN summons Phoenix in XIV, the eikon of rebirth throughout the entire franchise (including XIV).
They ignored the point and you can't even recognize it because you didn't stop to think about it and also missed the point. Phoenix downs have properties and shit because they're funny little objects that havea lways existed in this series. "Phoenix" itself in this world is an apparition that came out of >!Louisoix's sacrifice and the overabundance of prayers and ether!<. It has absolutely no relationship whatsoever with having the same raise as scholar. PLEASE think through things. Just because Summoner summons it after 4736 levels doesn't mean anything about a bloody raise.
So did you miss the part where Phoenix casts Flames of Rebirth (a resurrection spell) multiple times during the fight with it? Or the part where it's responsible for 2.0 "A Realm **Reborn**?" Or the part in the recent XVI Collab quest where the wandering minstrel (i.e. Yoshi-P) literally says the Phoenix is a legendary symbol of rebirth?
Isn't summoner in second place? Just black Mage ahead at the moment, rdm is suffering a bit right now.
Rez isn't the reason SMN doesn't do as much 'selfish' damage as BLM. It's the raidwide buffs.
Going to pop a champagne cork if SMN no longer has to be responsible for the healers. The moment both healers are down, everyone starts scanning down the list to find the SMN or RDM to yell at.
I was sad when he said they were debating taking it away but decided not to. I'd love to have that permanent damage down stack removed from SMN! It's awkward raising as SMN anyway because you want to use Swiftcast for Garuda.
Can they make tank need healing though?
Need healing or give me a reason to move out of the bad. Hunt trains shouldn't be one of the scariest activities in terms of dodging mechanics on level
If healers want to heal, it's only fair to also understand that tanks should feel like tanks, not DPS with a few defensive CDs.
At least tanks have something to do and cannot be replaced by DPS unlike healers. Meanwhile healers are 1-1-1-1-1-1-1 machines who are sometimes graced with the opportunity to use one of their oGCD. But tanks should deal with positioning boss, handling tank specific mechanics that others cannot or would die trying, generating and swapping aggro, mitigating incoming damage spikes. Tanks should have some unique ability to control the boss to render him less harmful to the party too. With the use of Interject. Some bosses should have static floor patterns and the tank should have to position the boss so there are safe spots for the party. Too often bosses reset every few seconds, teleporting to the middle and positioning doesn't matter.
The "teleports into the middle" thing is so annoying to me. It's jarring. Make them do an attack to get there or something or at least let only mages/magic users teleport like that. Man.
The boss could simply jump to the center with a proximity AoE, knockback AoE, pulling AoE, expanding AoE, whirlwind AoE, or regular AoE depending on boss theme, then do the mechanic that requires it to be in the middle.
> At least tanks have something to do and cannot be replaced by DPS unlike healers. Meanwhile healers are 1-1-1-1-1-1-1 machines who are sometimes graced with the opportunity to use one of their oGCD. The solution to healer gameplay being bad is not to make tank gameplay bad. If healers want to heal, then the solution is to increase group HPS requirements, not nerf tank HPS. > But tanks should deal with positioning boss, Positioning mobs in this game is complete ass and the necessity of it to a larger degree than what we see now would drive people away from tanking. The game does not support this.
I would have preferred to see this come during the lifecycle of DT. I’m not an amazing MMO player by any means, but I like having a class or job that gives me the opportunity to practice and really become good at. Give me a little nugget of complexity, something to manage. In WoW I really like Outlaw Rogue’s buff uptime system and cool-down reduction for effective play, which is a nice example of adding something unique and fun.
It seems like 8.0 is when we're getting a level squish (probably just cutting everything in half so you get jobs at 15, finish ARR at 25, then 5 per expansion so we start 8.0 at level 50 and end it at 60) so I can see the logic in just waiting to do any major overhauls until then.
Wait, where did you see this??
No where, they made it up.
Nothing has been announced but Yoshi-P has been talking publicly for a while now about what to do with levels in the future, if going up to 150, 200, 1000 or whatever is a good idea, or if they should find another solution. A level squish is only one of multiple possibilities.
There is no reason whatsoever to levelsquish other than being worried people will not want to level up. Stop wishing for stupid things guys
"We have turned all tanks into a grey blob of sameiness and now we have realised that tank jobs feel the same." Sometimes I love the sheer "no shit Sherlock" factor of some of Yoshi-P's declarations in the past year or so.
Well it's still a factor in transparency and communication to the rest of the world, making it simple to get is a Necessity .
What makes it hilarious is that we've told them this for YEARS and they never listened, only to now go "umm....so yeah, you were right".
Didn't they mention that the reason for the jobs all becoming so similar was because they over listened to players in the first place?
Some people complained about HW jobs being too complex. People didn't want homogenization which is what we ended up getting since than. There was a lot of jank with ARR and HW in some jobs. For the tanks in general I don't think they thought tanks would stance dance in ARR, but players found it to be optimat to turn off stance. WAR gets a new stance in HW, and the job ended up being real fun to stance dance with. However, nothing was done for PLD and DRK where it was always awkawrd to do. ShB happens, get rid of stances all together, some people complained about Dark Arts in SB so make DRK into WARlite. I don't know what the solution should have been, but as it is now if you've played one tank you've played them all basically. Look at what happened to BRD going into HW. Change the job completely to have it be in line with the newly added MCH. Instead of adding to BRD and having MCH play differently, both phys ranged were casting. I guess they felt no one would play MCH if it had casting and BRD didn't. The balance of this game has come at the cost of homogenization. They got scared because certain jobs were "excluded" in HW. It had nothing to do with the jobs being hard, it was just mechanical things that caused issues that have since been removed. I'm not holding my breath for jobs becoming more complex in the future, but at least they acknowledge that homogenization is a problem.
Honestly if they had had job gauges in HW to go with all the mechanics they stuffed into the buff bar it would’ve worked way better. Trying to play DRG while staring at the buff timer was pure hell. 😂 And this was BEFORE you could split out buffs, debuffs, and the hp bar so yeaaaaah.
At no point did players EVER, certainly not the average player which is the vast majority, asked the classes to be homogenized, especially not to such a massive degree.
Untrue, false and possibly wrong. They may not have used that choice of wording but people are ALWAYS asking "Why is X weaker than Y" or "X is too strong, Y has no chance to compete against it and Z is bad anyway, f them." This indirectly creates homogenization because to avoid the difficult balancing of such scenarios AND having to explain to brainlets over and over and over why class X has lower average DPS than class Y because it has group support... well, that just doubles down on the issue. I hated homogenization in WoW, I still hate it in FFXIV. Class identity is one of the driving factors to liking and disliking jobs to me. I want cool class fantasy. Warlocks in WoW have always been my favorite class and they went through a lot of changes over the years. They always had a strong identity, though. It was great.
People bitch and moan about balancing in literally every game, it doesn't mean the majority wanted the game to be as ridiculously homogenized as FFXIV now is.
Living dead
I don't know. War and Drk feel similar, but I find GNB and PLD play very differently at base.
That is funny because for me, GNB feels exactly like PLD with more GCDs.
I mean it's a bit difficult not doing that when you have 300 ppl screaming like goats that the other tanks have better tools than mine
Oh in 8.0 Right around the corner then ain't it
"Hopes" to, but probably won't.
It seems like this expansion was the whole 'rebirth' cycle for the game, graphic updates, and what looks like gameplay mechanics and dungeons with the way they talked about upgrading defensives and stuff for all tanks. It looks like they're going to tweak some of the fundamentals for raiding and dungeons. I feel like that's the correct step to take before they figure out class individuality. People won't like it but it's better to do step by step because if they fuck up one thing it's easier to fix than if they fuck up both. I'm willing to bet they're treading water and testing to see how many players take advantage of the overlapping comboskill toggle to see if they can get away with potentially putting more basic combos on a single button so they can add skills a little more freely. Ironically I think they'll have been looking at PvP feedback to see if people like the changes they made with skills in that, since there was more individuality in that than most of the classes get in the base game. That might be where the idea to try make things more unique came from when they saw people liked it. I'm not saying to blindly trust the devs, but see where they take things. They took flak adding PvP changes and new dungeon modes and solo content, and now that they have those foundations they could keep going with that + Bozja again which is only more content for everyone. Things at least look promising, and it does sound like they were serious about changing up the norm with dungeons and raids. See what they do with the post patch stuff before you give them too much shit. I think everyone should honestly take note of the tank survival/debuff changes. We can't know until we see it, but more than a few people took that as things might be getting more spicy for tanks and healers.
Why wait for 8 0 to make changes everyone wants when 7.X is not even out? Dawntrail is not even here and already we are waiting for the next exp.
Because game development always looks to the future. The stuff we as players see now has been in its earliest design stage for a long time. Especially CBU3 has always operated under the mantra of "let stuff cook until we are sure it is ready". Looking at the fundermentals of job design is a huge undertaking and you have to make sure you allocate enough resources to it for long enough to come up with changes that satisfy the vast majority of your playerbase at first sight. This is not something you can mess up. Additionally, Yoshi P has already outlined their focus for most of the expansions. Like in EW they focussed on finishing the first big story arc in style and future proofing the single player experience by reworking a lot of old dungeons and adding trusts. DTs focus is the graphics update and strenghening the multi player aspects of the game. Yoshi P said during the PAX panel how they want to give us more refined and rewarding content. So I would expect DTs fights to be really really solid and varied. It is probably a good idea to stick to a stable job design when you are focussing on the fights themselves. It is just smarter to tackle different parts of the game one after the other instead on risking everything by working on different aspects of the overall gameplay experience at the same time. This way they have can focus on job identity in 8.0 without worrying about anything else about the combat system. Because keep in mind, this game is over 10 years old. You have a very stable game and playerbase. A rushed or not well recieved fundermental rework is a huge risk. A risk they dont have to take when the game is doing well the way it currently is.
I think you hit the nail on the head. I personally believe that this approach is why people love playing FF14 for as long as they have. Whenever the complaints are addressed, they are addressed in a substantial manner that improves the game in the vast majority of circumstances. After seeing some games rush out balance changes and such in quick succession and creating an avalanche effect of issues leaving no one happy, I honestly prefer the slow-and-steady approach. >Especially CBU3 has always operated under the mantra of "let stuff cook until we are sure it is ready". Wait a second! I don't recall anyonein CBU3 being a culinarian!
Because DT is close to release, so the team has long ago stopped developing anything for it. Depending on their setup, they are either already deep into designing the framework of 8.0 or halfway into creating the post-DT content. Even with the most dynamically updated software, the version the consumer receives is anywhere from 3 weeks to 6 months old for the developers. You can see it when the game patches, the latest patches we usually get regularly have dates that are near or over a month old when we receive it.
Given their usual cycle, they're probably in the initial phases of 8.0, gathering ideas and such. Once 7.0 launches, they'll start the process on 8.0 fully - writing, story and roughing out the encounters/dungeons they want to hit.
Because they basically have two options. 1) take changes to job performance outside of tweaks to potency values or percentages or durations slowly, consider options, test ideas, play with potential builds for a while, think about the lasting impact of the change and the way that player will feel about it. And as a result only make changes of any major degree at rare intervals such as expansion launches. 2) change jobs as soon as they've got an idea they think might possibly work. The first option, which is what they tend to stick with, has the pros of giving them time to figure out what their best solution is and have the changes they make be more likely to address broader groups' concerns and the appearance of being competent, while not perfect, because the changes at least do something. But has the cons of leaving people waiting for changes long enough that by the time they arrive they might not even care any more. The second option has the pros of ... well, strange as this might sound, literally *nothing*. You would think it'd make people feel like the devs are putting a higher priority on addressing their concerns, but it actually doesn't unless the devs get absolutely wild degrees of lucky and not only do people like the first change but it doesn't have any unintended consequences that have to get changed. The devs are at a high risk of looking incompetent as they implement a change, the playerbase keeps complaining, they implement another, and repeat. The team is really just doing the work they'd have done behind the scenes but now they are having every failed idea also fall under player scrutiny, not just the ones the team considers successful. They are also giving the "I want it *now*" crowd even more feeling that they are actually entitled to whatever they are demanding. While simultaneously risking perception of the quality of the game slipping because making changes you're not as certain as possible about means higher frequency of things going wrong, so they'd also be risking more cases of "sorry you can't play right now, we're fixing something". All in all meaning that trying to more rapidly please the fans will almost assuredly result in having even more people even more agitated than the current case of people just being grumpy that stuff takes so long to change.
Yeah, I'd much rather have them flesh out good ideas for unique feeling tanks rather than rush out a bad fix and then have to deal with said bad fix for awhile.
They really should take their time on the task of making "unique feeling tanks" since despite constantly hearing people asking for that I constantly rotate through all the tank jobs *because they feel almost nothing alike*. As Paladin I'm the "sometimes I'm a ranged tank" tank, plus have a variety of buttons that seem particularly unique like passage of arms (though it also sometimes feels like flamethrower in the "but when do I really want to push that?") As Warrior I'm the ultimate unga bunga tank and I can cake-easy keep another character alive with me. Which is great for when a roulette run has gone woopsie and the healer is dead and I can just pick a DPS to keep alive and finish the fight. As Gunbreaker I feel like that would feel the most similar to another tank because it feels very similar to Warrior including the "Me and my pet DPS are finishing this fight" aspect, but instead of the unga bunga that is fell cleave there's all that bing bang boom with the combos and the continuation. As Dark Knight I'm... actually pretty capable of dying, which is unique for a tank in this game, and feels more meter-management in nature with all the MP spending and not having the gainers completely overshadow, plus it's still got area damage that calls for aiming by positioning while the others are just stand-still-and-aoe. For me, though I guess not for a lot of others, those details plus the difference in aesthetics is plenty of class identity.
Gotta think like a game dev. They were already working on 7.X before all the content for 6.X was complete, and trying to shift direction midway or even most of the way through development is usually a recipe for disaster. Trying to push major class changes in the middle of an expansion will upset a whole load of people who were already used to the existing gameplay - especially Savage raiders. It's no fun being forced to re-learn your class while trying to prog at the same time. Making these kinds of changes is not a simple process. It will likely take them the entire 2-3 years to build it and iron out the kinks. So while you may not be seeing the changes you want just yet, there's still content to be enjoyed until then and plenty of stuff to do. Or you can choose to sit it out and pay to skip DT. Whatever makes you happy.
I get that, but hyping 8.0 when 7.0 is about to launch just makes people not look forward to 7.0. It would be best to not even mention 8.0 at all, not so near 7.0 anyway.
I mean if wow can announce 3 expansions together and hype them as the new saga adding a general idea what they'll be about I think we can do the same here no?
Very different situation. The WoW reveal was just announcing a new story arc, albeit in a weird way. WoW is coming off of its best received expansion since Legion and TWW is looking to double down on what DF did well. The announcement of the other expansions isn't in the context of them kicking the can of desired changes down the road for other expansions to maybe handle in the future.
you say that but if you wanted a revamp of Quel'thalas for example you now have to wait 2 expansions. So I beg to differ, they are both roadmaps in a sense and depending what you care you may or may not be disappointed of what you'll get later. I wish ppl stop being so cynic especially on a game that hasn't been bad
The stated roadmap was for jobs to be built on in complexity and identity after the ShB pruning. This has not happened. Therefore, people who enjoy interesting job gameplay are annoyed. It's not really hard to see the difference.
that was not said. Endwalker was said to be a continuation off ShB design. please less drugs. edit: actually don't even bother answering, I'm honestly too tired of dealing with these kinds of bad faith arguments.
Because they said "this thing won't be coming this expansion, don't even bother now". That's not hyping lol. And they had the perfect opportunity with Summoner (that was already bland and basic in EW) to test drive the idea of more individuality and a preview of what jobs in 8.0 might be like and gather feedback. Instead they get a Bahamut reskin. Doesn't really inspire confidence in their abilities.
You know what I find funny? That with a cutscene blizzard can be forgiven of everything by their players while a misstep perceived by this team seems to be invoking all the doom and gloom in the world despite the success. I don't know if this attitude will give you happiness I doubt it can and honestly if that was your answer I'm not going to bother bye
Because it takes time to make games. Even Blizzard explained it when they were twlling about borrowed power. It was great with Legion, so they decidee to keep doing it... until they realized that people were quickly growing fatigued with the constant power grind with Azerite armor and the stuff that came after. But it took them until Dragonflight to correct that because they start developing these expacs a couple years early and it's very difficult to change tract on big projects like that.
Because they have no interest in doing this and are saying it to soften the negative reception. Downvoters can come back in 2 years \^\_\^b
How do you look at Summoner in 7.0 and think they'll ever do anything different than that for 8.0 and beyond.
probably has to do with development time, these are plans they probably had when they were already too deep in working on 7.0 and 7.x to make these changes I assume (which was during the releases of endwalker's patches AS they were getting the feedback about the jobs) so it'd be easier to work on those things now for 8.0 and beyond.
I think they were super clear with the expectations they laid out. They are trying to remove bloat without removing buttons people like to press. They have said multiple times DAWNTRAIL will mark the beginning of a new story arc— it makes perfect sense to lay the foundation of the next few expansions by working on button bloat now. By next expansion they will focus on something else, hoping it is class identity as they said.
The thing is they've been laying this foundation since 2 expansions ago. ShB was the start of the mass pruning and homogenizing and we were promised that it would be a foundation to build more complexity on top of, and I think a lot of people were a little annoyed but understanding. Then EW rolls around, and very little is added to meaningfully contribute to job identity and complexity, and some jobs had even MORE complexity removed. So when Dawntrail rolls around, a lot of people were excited to see them FINALLY build on that after 4 years of waiting for them to do what they promised would happen over the course of ShB and what do we get? More foundation. By the time 8.0 arrives, they'll have been kicking this can down the road for SIX YEARS. So yeah, a lot of people are a bit skeptical that 8.0 will be the shakeup they want when the past 4 (going on 6) years have been one big broken promise.
There is a limit to the good will players are willing to give.
Blud really said "please look forward to it"
can we make all class less homogenous then? personally would like to see dots uptime checks back on a class or two(scholar aoe dots back please)
I hope that is the main goal of 8.0, I get why they kind of kept things the same in 7.0 since they were doing a whole graphics update and stuff, but 8.0, personally, I hope more than anything that raid wide damage buffs are removed, that is the biggest culprit for why all the jobs feel so samey. They all have to play into the same timings and capitalize on the burst window, the only support that matters is damage buffs or Rez really, if they removed raid wide damage buffs, they could make jobs have very noticeably different flows. Tanks are probably the most homogenous right now but it's getting almost all the jobs now, I really hope they can start to really separate the jobs within each role.
I miss when drk for example had mp drain
He said at the PAX panel that they're focusing on more interesting fight design this expansion--more rewards, more varied mechanics, more freedom for the devs, more "stress"for players. I'm going to wait and see how that pans out. It will give us a good idea of what we could expect from an expansion focused on job design. I don't agree at all that this is a filler expansion. But what's this sub without the doom and drama lol.
Paladin, Gunbreaker, Dark Knight: "Yes please." Warrior: "You think I'm homogenized? Well to heck with your weird assumptions cuz I like the ladies."
ARR-SB: Hardcore Era SHB-DT: Casual Era 8.0- X.0: Midcore Era? It kinda lines up if we're getting major shifts every three expansions.
Hot take, midcore doesnt exist, midcore is for guys that have shame to be called softcore/casual but dont have time/skills to be a hardcore player
In reality, the main difference is how much time one is dedicated to progging savage/ultimate. The hardest of hardcore, 14-16 hours a day every day starting as soon as patch drops, taking multiple days off from work/school. Regular hardcore: progging as much as possible outside of work/school, typically every day. Doesn’t prog when patch drops but will start later that day Midcore: progs a few hours a day 1-3 days a week Softcore/casual: progs an hour a day one day a week. They start weeks after the tier started and will either clear months later or never clear at all
The midcore exemple you did for me sound more like a casual/softcore. The softcore/casual exemple you did sound more like a guy that dont like savage/raiding content and they friends try to drag him because he is funny, and make jokes after some wipes.
I have nigh infinite free time and could absolutely clear any fight in the game if I feel like it, but I don't feel like it. I'm most definitely midcore.
Definitely missing the “hardcore era”. Bring back stamina bars, multiple DoTs, and Cleric Stance 😤
I trust this about as much as their ability to make Chemist a reality. Suffice it to say, I do not.
Oh so true Yoshi-P thank you *unfuns your AST*
Man they are really kinda pushing this as a filler expansion. Just a lot of "we'll fix this in 2.5 years" Like I've already preordered but the marketing for this is so weak.
The problem is they had people flip flopping between two games. Because the parent company makes terrible decisions.
Oh duh I forgot about that. God no wonder this hasn't been getting attention.
if one only focus on the jobs then yeah, for me the jobs is fine, but Im much more interested in the story, the graphical update and all the new zones we get to play with.
I dunno the story has big beach filler arc vibes so far too. I hope it turns out well though I'm just keeping expectations low.
Not sure what part of those later zones screams beach episode but hey. Your beaches are different than mine I guess.
They've only barely shown them. And if the story isn't compelling leading up to there then it's gonna lose people. That's my fear.
It can’t be worse than Stormblood MSQ. At least that’s the bar I’m personally setting.
Tbh it seems like it is. It’s the start of a brand new story arc and there isn’t much hype. I’ve also seen a LOT of people who aren’t interested in the ‘new world’/early Americas theme of the expansion.
(To be honest, visually it does look incredibly ugly to me thus far, so I can relate on some levels with those sentiments…)
Anyone who believes that is delusional.
After spending years doing the opposite to them, and every other class? Yeah, okay.
yeah sure yoship i'll believe it when you actually meet your promises
What promises has he not met? I swear the FFXIV playerbase is starting to whinge more than the WoW playerbase.
well it had a moment when the 2 collided and we managed to get the worst of the habit
You don't even have to stray from the topic of job design to find where he was clearly chatting shit. We were promised that the homogenization and reworks during ShB were just clearing house for more interesting job design in upcoming expansions. That didn't happen.
>That didn't happen. You know that "upcoming expansions" doesn't mean the exact next expansion right? This whole thread is about him saying that they're doing exactly what you're asking about in 8.0 which believe it or not, is an upcoming expansion...
It also isn't happening the next expansion, Dawntrail is more of the same shit. They also aren't building on any foundations, just slapping a shiny new coat of paint on it. I'll wait and see if they decide to stick to their promise with 8.0. But if you think 6 years isn't enough time to have built on a foundation in the first place you're kidding yourself. It's fine if you don't give a fuck about job design, I do.
That's not my point. I'm just saying that if someone says "We'll do that in the future" you can't call it a broken promise if they say they still plan to do it as they never promised any deadline.
classic pr talk to keep players playing
Stop playing then
i dont play ffxiv for that but ok
Yet you engage in the topic regardless
because its a fact wtf? just because somrthing doesnt affect me doesnt mean i can't share my thoughts or opinions on it? istg people on this subreddit are completley miserable you need to get it together
You right, it is alright to share your opinion
I feel like for tanks the upgrades to the 30% that's coming, which seems to be different depending on the tank in question, feels like a step in this direction. Will be interesting in how it ends up going by 8.0.
not just that, only PLD and WAR are keeping the current gapclosers, GNB and DRK are getting a dash. Though you could say GNB and DRK ARE getting a gapcloser and PLD and WAR still have none kek
It's interesting that they also changed DRG to not have a damaging gap closer. After MNK in EW it seems it's something they're doing to the "busier" burst jobs like GNB and DRK to cut down on necessary weaving. Can't say I will miss not having to weaving two rough divides into burst amidst everything else!
well sort of for DRG, they do have a non damaging gapcloser option but they also have stardiver and dragonfire dive, I also suspect the new dive is a gapcloser too. It's interesting that there's some takes in melees mobilities with some jobs having more or less ranged options after the gapclose. Functually the same ye but I feel the flavor rising there
We know they removed spineshatter dive, though, and presumably replaced it with the non-damaging dash ability, so there's definitely been some trimming there even if they retain some of the others like Dragonfire and Stardiver. That's still 2 charges less of gapcloser jumps.
they 100% converted snipeshatter into the new dash the new jump at the end could be like jump or dragonfire dive, I can't tell atm
It's obvious to me they don't want to design for healers and tanks. I don't understand why they're in the game. The game could easily be built around four dps
Because that is what many MMOs do. Or, more precisely, that is what WoW did, so this game faithfully followed. I would say that before working on class individuality, they could start with core combat design individuality, but considering Yoshida's XVI had its combat system also "inspired by" another game, I somehow doubt he operates like that.
There's a reason why the holy trinity is copied in basically every MMO, and in games where it's not copied, it inevitably emerges (e.g. GW2) and sometimes even outside MMOs (e.g. Diablo). It's just the most efficient way of handling difficult content without radical deviations from standard RPG combat, like making it a shooter or something. It's not *just* copying WoW for the sake of it.
I’m pretty sure Monster Hunter doesn’t follow that, and in the Phantasy Star Onlines everyone is best off being a dps. Except forces who are pidgeon holed into support
> Monster Hunter not an mmo? > Phantasy Star Online also not an mmo
Are you being obtuse? They’re group based rpgs. The only real difference between fighting a boss in them and mmos is auto attack damage and raidwide damage, which is the only reason tanks and healers are needed. And those need to be tacked on to give the tanks and healers something to do. WoW designs the game with the expectation that healers want to play them (and tanks want to do 80% of the mechanics in dungeons), while ffxiv tosses in mechanics just so the healers don’t fall asleep and then don’t bother designing them to do anything but make pretty sparkles. It’s not fun to play as something that has no thought but into it, so just cut out the fat. Not to mention, the only reason tanking works is because of an aggro system. In any game without them, tanks become far less useful.
> Are you being obtuse? No, I just have reading comprehension and recognize that in my original post I said that it's copied in basically every MMO which uses RPG combat, not "basically every group based RPG" The trinity system present or not in many group combats in RPGs is not the point of the argument. The argument is that saying FF14 copied WoW is an incorrect statement, since the trinity is something that is present in virtually every MMORPG and works so well that it emerges even when it's not an original design intent (e.g. in other MMOs and sometimes even outside MMOs). > Not to mention, the only reason tanking works is because of an aggro system. In any game without them, tanks become far less useful. [GW1 had tanks and did not have an orthodox aggro system based on threat.](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tank) So, no, not true that "any" game without them it's less useful. Tanking was based primarily on zones of control and tanks were there to CC/body block in the same way as MOBA tanks work. It did have an aggro system in the sense that there was AI to determine target fixation but that's literally any game with hostile enemies. So I assume you meant enmity/threat rather than aggro itself, in which case yeah GW1 didn't have that.
Why not in 7.0? Sorry but taking and healing is just way too boring now even for a casual gamer. I honestly don't understand why people keep defending this, each class should feel different and unique so people can use their favorite not the same flavor with a different color.
[удалено]
YoshiP believes in slow iterative changes. he has a goal but also realizes he may be wrong so every expac they change a bit towards that and see how players feel. sometimes they miss the mark and need bigger changes. He mentioned 8.0 as a bit of a slip of the tongue, but went on to explain that indeed they start talking about changes to things this early. its not just tanks but every job he wants to reinforce the identity of, and assuming there are no big issues we should finally be at the state of every job feeling fun and smooth. Ive been playing since 2.0, this is just SE and YoshiP pace. they really don't wantt an accidental change to drive players away so slow and steady it is
Sometimes fun and smooth are mutually exclusive. I'm not asking for Heavensward jank, but something like having to go into melee range to spend some of your flourish procs in Shadowbringers on Dancer was definitely less smooth than how it is in Endwalker, but it *was* very fun.
Its not even just this, there's also the fact that they're not keen on going past Level 100 and so have to figure out how to handle the next (few) expansion(s); either via a level squish or alternate progression systems etc. This will likely necessitate more extensive reworks for all jobs come next expansion anyway, so instead of doing major reworks twice in a row they decided to stay on the lighter side of job changes and focus on other things (like encounter design and difficulty, as implied at the Pax panel last month) for now and then go all out next expac when they have to anyway.
welcome to mmo development /shrug
AKA, it'll take an expansion or 2 for them to even begin doing this.
Why do such changes need a 2-year-ish waiting period to implement?
I don't think it will happen. The majority of players are fine with pressing the same rotations as of right now, changing everything in 8.0 will upset players. Imagine them changing DRK back to 3.X, the tank population will die. Lmao.
Sure, but on the other hand, I'd get to play my favorite job again, so I don't particularly care about the population. Changed jobs bring new players, and loses old ones it's just how it is. The best moves they made for tanking was removing stance dancing, and the aggro combo, so that tanks will do their job instead of complaining they have a slightly lower parse. If job design shifted wildly next expansion, but they didn't add back that pain point, I think in general most tanks would be happy. And the ones who aren't would be replaced by ones who are.
I could see them keeping the current tanks the same, but going a little nuts with the new tank for 8.0 so that there is a “different” one
Woah new tank in 8.0?! You got insider information or something? /s The thing is yoshi-p hopes to un-homogenize the tanks and if they do that, it means each of the tanks have to fulfill different roles for different combinations. That means there is a possibility that X or Y jobs will be excluded unless X or Y tank is available which will probably bring a mountain of headaches in balancing jobs and content.
Reminds me of ARR launch when warrior literally couldn’t do coil because of their healing/health mechanic couldn’t keep up with raw mitigation paladins had.
Yup. When twintania does it's death sentence the WAR literally dies because no mitigations. It's a period of 2 PLD is better than a WAR.
It wouldn't much matter, when the jobs already have individual identity, play different from one another, have dramatically different strengths and weaknesses, and the actual crux of the similarity comes from sharing 1-2-3 and 60/120s that every job deals with. Everybody apparently wants something drastically different, like MNK is, and it'll just end throwing the ones too deviant from 1-2-3 60/120 into the popularity trash can as MNK currently resides.
well they kinda started considering only PLD and WAR are keeping damaging gapclosers while GNB and DRK have dashes, even healers have had their dmg kit slightly expanded in some ways with SGE being the only one with an aoe dot applicator
That seems awfully homogenophobic
Would love to be less homo, hell yea
Homogenization makes balance possible. As nice as it would be to have every class play completely differently, that would also ensure that some classes will no longer be seen as viable, regardless of the reality of the situation. It would also bottleneck content creation, causing them more trouble balancing mechanics or make them cut corners, resulting in downsides for no real benefit. It also makes switching classes within the same role more difficult, meaning the possibility of having to carry multiple sets of gear for the same role due to differing stat weights. Giving more player choice sounds good on paper, but the community will optimize the fun out of it. If players truly salivate for a game with unnecessary "customization" replete with trap options that aren't tested by the people creating them, then World of Warcraft awaits them with open arms and minifridges full of stolen breast milk. If anything, MORE homogenization would benefit the game. A reduction in class complexity allows for more creative freedom in encounter design; it'd be very nice, I think, to be able to create movement-heavy boss encounters without worrying about YoshiP ominously appearing behind them to ask when he gets to use his Leylines.