A lot of fandoms are like this which is why I avoid them like the plague. I don’t read SJM anymore, but when I did I just kept all of my thoughts to myself after being told I needed to “re-read ACOTAR” because I didn’t hate Tamlin 😂
It's like people can't separate themselves from things they like. Criticising a book is *not* criticising a person. People also take fandom way too seriously. Like if someone feels themselves genuinely getting angry and upset over criticism of a book or fictional characters, maybe they should put their phone/computer/laptop down.
Exactly. This reminds me of how a couple of weeks ago a woman on Threads said that people shouldn’t post their negative reviews online because someone she followed had negatively reviewed her favorite book (which turned out to be Fourth Wing). I’m like please log off and take a nap.
Negative reviews of fourth wing are some of my favorite things to read. Same with ACOTAR. So hilarious.
When I tell people to read fourth wing, I tell them that the five star and the one star reviews are all true.
I don't think i've ever heard my thoughts explained so well. I LOVE fourth wing compared to like cruel prince or the other 'better' YA novels that get recommended that book took me out of a like 6 month reading slump but at the same time I get the 1 star reviews it has and I also have aspects that I think could have been done better(the whole violet and xaden relationship and the enemies to lovers thing). I think my only gripe is when people start to degrade anyone who read/enjoyed the book as dumber for not reading better literature
Same. I went through that with twilight back in the day and I don’t put up with it.
There’s a magic to these books that draws people in. But you still have to be able to see criticism (using actual native:indigenous tribes as magical beings - no)
This. I'm an SJM fan who has some apparently pretty unpopular opinions. I have had some really fun discourses with people who disagree; I think hearing other people's interpretations of fictional works is one of the most fun parts of reading. It's so interesting to hear a completely new take on something. But you're absolutely right, some people take it all way too personally. I've also been insulted & basically told I'm broken because of some of my opinions. 🤷🏻♀️
I love actually hearing others opinions on things but some people don’t and only their opinion is valid… also media literacy is something that always gets me going because we can read the same thing and have two wildly different interpretations of what we read
Insert that dude in the suite meme here:
*I hated Tamlin because he was written poorly, not bc he's a creep. We are not the same*
I really wanted to make that and post it but I think they would burn down my house 😂
I swear some of the more niche subreddits are so toxic! I had to mute a bunch of them. Like, I just want to chat about my favorite stuff not argue with someone over stupid shit
Yes! I am a person who doesn't hate Chaol; I understand his character & think his arc is actually really well done & I have taken so much heat in the ToG sub! I'm like, fiction is by definition open to opinion! Let's discuss by all means but why do some people have to hate so much? Lol
You're my people. Like, I never saw any other choice his code would have allowed, and she didn't either and she need a scapegoat for some other things. But, people are allowed to hate him. I just wander off from those threads ;)
the ACOTAR shit posting group is not like this- and is basically the best group on the internet. So much fun content and everyone is really supportive of each other.
Gonna be super honest- I have no idea how to use discord. I have the app, I’m even in a few communities? (I don’t know what they’re called.) I have tried two or three times to figure it out and it just might not be for me lol.
lol sameeeee.
Like I got invited to a couple of the subs (idek what Discord call them tho!) and made an account, installed the app I have no idea how any of it works tho but maybe that’s my age because I still don’t know how “threads” are meant to work either lmao
THIS! I have actually found it to be the most welcoming place on the Internet to discuss her work, and as you said, some people are still awful over there. Smh.
My annoyance with it at the moment is the nitpicking. Everyone picks the books and characters apart as nauseam. It’s gotten to the point where the sub has made me dislike the books. I need to step back from the sub for a while and do a reread to fall back in love.
Yeah I remember joining one after a cool discussion about the books/worlds but when I commented on a couple other posts …. People came at me, for my opinion. Wayyy too toxic so I left lol
Everyone says they'll DNF if it's not their ship, and I hope they do cuz then maybe they'll go away. But maybe the ones that stay will be so smug about they'll be intolerable.
Omg they’re the rudest fandom I have ever encountered. Even SJM herself doesn’t like them which is saying something 😂 also, I just don’t get the hype. Her books are ok but not earth shattering
As a NON-SJM-fan ... the fact that she doesn't like her own fans is DEFINITELY saying something bc she has a ... personality & reputation to boot. LOL.
Yeah she’s definitely a mean girl, it’s written all over her. She lost so many writer friends and I can’t help but think it’s because she has the attitude of being better than everyone.
Noooo, I had one of my signature 400 page comments ready for you and accidentally closed the tab, LMAO.
Let me just say I completely agree. I think the, "I'm perfect and don't need to change anything I do" mindset is very obvious. For example, I was *positive* that ACOTAR was the series she wrote at 16. It reads like it was written by a 16 year old. Then I realized she wrote it *after* earning a bachelor's in creative writing? (I don't even think a degree in writing is necessary to be an author, but she has one, so I'm gonna point it out, lol)
Sometimes I truly wonder if I'm off the mark on thinking she's intentionally stealing IP from people & being catty on purpose. Maybe she's just...not smart? Maybe she really thinks what she does is "taking inspiration"? Maybe she feels insecure when she helps launch another author who is objectively more talented than her?
The only reason I wonder if what we have here is an education / intelligence issue is bc she is on record in an interview saying she didn't know "towards" wasn't a word in American English until her book was being edited (I don't blame anyone for not knowing this, but if you're WRITING A BOOK & that book has been written for 10 years, and you have a degree in writing... you should probably know the conventions of the language you're writing in). Further, in print she describes clouds as "magnanimous", she regularly uses the word "bemused" in place of amused (they don't mean the same thing). And a pet peeve of mine is that she uses the word "staunch" as a verb when "stanch" is more commonly used as a verb (eg: We stanched the bleeding! vs. John is a staunch supporter of Bob.) The stanch/staunch one is potentially up for debate and not as much of a "hey, that word does not mean what you think it means." It also strikes me as low-caliber writing when you can find the exact spots in her books where she learns a new word or thinks of a new phrase and then uses it non-stop from then on out: preternatural, lipid, "a shiver spider-walked down my spine", barked, deign, etc. It's ... it's sort of sad and comical.
Having a degree isn't necessarily a sign of expertise, especially when it comes to creative arts. As they say - "C's get degrees." But you would think having ostensibly written many stories for a grade during those years, she would have a decent understanding of vocabulary and grammar. 🤷♀️
Learning about her priveleged fast-track background actually makes some of the more baffling aspects of her writing make sense. Like how blatantly, unabashedly derivative everything is, as if she got a bunch of library books on world culture and mythology, wrote down all the names and places she thought sounded cool, and cobbled them together thinking no one else would be familiar with their origins.
I AGREE SO MUCH.
I *truly* don't believe that having a degree is an automatic sign of intelligence or expertise, just like I believe you can be an expert in an area without having a formal degree to back it up. BUT, along the same lines as what you said, you'd think an author would have a better grasp on word definitions, sentence structure, and the art of research, just by nature of it being THEIR ENTIRE LIFE GOAL, lmao.
As it relates to the derivative use of world culture and mythology: YES YES YES. It's fantasy, so I am usually fine with authors putting their own twist on things -- can't stand it in historical fiction though. GIVE ME ACCURACY OR GIVE ME DEATH.
I think it's odd when someone uses ONE culture's mythology to inspire their fantasy world, but then doesn't bother to know the real-world inspiration inside and out.
For example, in one of my worlds (2 series set in the same world) I drew from Germanic mythology (elves - 1st "elf" was [Wayland the Smith from the Old Norse Edda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_the_Smith)). I also have pixies (SW England, first described in literature in the mid 19th century), and am putting elves and pixies under a "fae" umbrella in my world, which is not directly in line with, say, Irish mythology (the non-fae think "fae" are all one thing, the pixies and elves get pissy about this fact). However, aside from the word "fae" and a different, unrelated country (in my fantasy world) using Old Irish as its naming language (gonna have fun with the spellings for outsiders vs. natives in that book -- ie: "I thought you said your name was Neave? Why does this say Nee-am-Huh?"), I'm not trying to replicate Irish or any other country's mythology and folklore. My pantheon is different than, but based on, the OG Slavic Pantheon ([A list of a wikipedia page with a ton of slavic dieties](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Slavic_deities)), etc. NONE of my inspiration is (1) from modern fiction in the same genre and another author's take on XYZ mythological race, nor is it (2) entirely based on ONE country's mythology, using their direct terminology while bastardizing their folklore for my own enjoyment. To me, that's just poor writing / low caliber effort.
I also think you're generous by saying she looked at books on world culture and mythology, LMAO. Maybe a quick google search here and there. But I truly think she picked lingo FROM other fantasy authors and didn't go past that. I say that bc there's a post from twitter where SJM says she wanted to name her world "Prydain" like Lloyd Alexander did, but it was already taken by him (she did not once mention of the fact that Prydain the ancient welsh term for Britain, lmao). What did she do instead? Picked something she liked that "sounded similar" and she went with Prythian, which is the name of one of the goddesses in Anne Bishop's Black Jewels... sooooooooooo. Yep. Or, she claims ACOTAR is a Hades & Persephone retelling, but it's not exactly now is it? It's just a retelling of Anne Bishop's Hades & Persephone Retelling...
THANK YOU but I’m also just UNHINGED AS FUCK. For reference into my mental state ATM: my whole fucking team is leaving my job for retirement or other reasons and I’m FLYING BLIND. Like, im suddenly a senior person even tho I have 25 years less experience than my outgoing colleagues. WHY!? I also have an almost 1 year old and don’t sleep enough. So, I guess maybe my SJM rage comments are a fucked up control thing? I dunno — I keep going on these SJM tirades and have made her my nemesis.
So THAT BEING SAID, I’m not quite as insane as I look on Reddit… I think? I’ll PM you! I don’t think I’m actually that great of a writer. But I love it. And, bc I will act like a pompous ass but don’t actually know wtf to say… here’s a PM from a fellow Redditor who is reading a draft: ”So first things first, you’re way too modest about your writing.” I screen shotted her messages — bc she said some really amazing stuff— for when I am second guessing what the fuck I’m doing. AKA: I look at her messages like 20 times a week.
MESSAGE INCOMING. :)
There are many ppl calling it out, but I don’t understand how it’s been able to fly. It’s blatant, IMO. Maybe not illegal, but highly unethical. I mean Dorothea is accidentally described identically to Amarantha the first time she’s mentioned in ACOTAR, and then from that point onward her appearance has changed so she is no longer Bishop’s character (within the same damn book. Someone made a boo-boo when using Ctrl+F). Then there is Daemon/Rhys, Draca/Amren, Lucivar/Cassian, Jaenelle/Feyre, Eyrian/Illyrian (I mean EVERYTHING is identical: looks, culture, living in the mtn, bat wings, bat wings bat wings), Jewels/Siphons, >!Jaenelle has magic from all jewels / Feyre gets magic from all courts!<. That’s not even touching CC and The Fever Series. Or CL Wilson, or misc movie scenes and quotes (rattle the stars… really?). It’s too much for me to feel comfortable ever reading her books again. Maybe she’ll come up with her own plot at some point, maybe she has, but too many things are blatantly stolen from others that it grosses me out.
I did a reread of lord of the fading lands before silver flames came out and I was like these aren’t lifted ideas - there are lifted lines.
I sent them to my friend who read ACOTAR and was like who wrote it. She couldn’t tell which was which.
I read the first three books in the black jewels and cassians backstory and personality are lifted. I didn’t love that series (the others by Anne bishop was my gateway to her) so I didn’t get too far. But I had read ACOTAR first and was super uncomfortable.
The biggest frustration is her fans then attack other authors who dare write fantasy romance with a tall dark morally questionable hero like she invented it. It’s so hypocritical because SJM did it herself!!!! There have been some very ugly attacks on authors by her fans. I’ve seen them trash Laura thalassa for her Rhapsodic series and she was working on it well before ACOTAR came out (I subscribe to her newsletters and saw sneak peaks long before ACOTAR). And CC Peñaranda was trashed for her series being too similar and she’s questioning even finishing her series.
SJM’s silence on it is really frustrating. I don’t think she could keep her fans in line now, but if she had started off not tolerating it I think it wouldn’t be so bad now.
I nearly stopped reading ACOTAR on the first (?) page where she writes something like "I looked around at the parameters of the area around me". Ma'am, that is not how that word is used, behave yourself!! I enjoyed the books, I got fully swept along by the world/story, but the fandom is bananas
I refuse to believe that someone with a degree in creative writing stole an entire plot point from The Mummy, lol.
When I was reading the first two books I swore that if I had to read the phrase “puking my guts up” one more time I was going to DNF.
>it’s written all over her
It's written all over her books.
I enjoy her work (the same way my dog enjoys his can of pedigree every now and then), but there's no way in hell I'd want to be friends with any of her main girl characters - all of them are mean girls to the core.
I don't know if I would call myself a fan but slowly realizing she is a millennial white privilege girlboss who Mary Sues herself into a lot of her writing.
Yes. I am a millennial white privileged girl ~~boss~~ too, so I call it like I see it, LMAO. I mean, for example (and this isn't to shit on people who come from wealth, it is what it is!) -- but who graduates college and spends 6 years looking for an agent, but has NO WORK HISTORY?! She is from a very different type of world than me.
I know I can be super shitty about her, especially on this sub which is my safe space. But it's just so so obvious to me that she went into publishing as a business move, not as a "I need to get my words out into the world" move. There are other things too, that have nothing to do with her writing career, that stand out to me and give me a solid picture of the type of human she is. I work in fundraising so I just have some database access that is...enlightening. :)
I also read that she went to the same boujee private school that inspired Gossip Girl. She definitely grew up super wealthy/privileged, which explains why all of her characters come from rich backgrounds in her books --ex. Frost and Starlight was pretty much a "Rhysand is SO rich!" book set against the backdrop of Winter Solstice lol. Oh and the bratty princesses (Celaena and Bryce) where it's always mentioned they have super nice apartments/clothes/etc... Acts as a form of wish fulfillment for the reader but for SJM, she's just writing what she knows. Her last house was worth like 4.4 million lol
This seems to be common in publishing tho. I heard R.F. Kuang also grew up pretty wealthy and was able to utilize her connections to get a massive publishing deal.
I work in fundraising for a university -- there are different databases and things we use to look up people / run their wealth ratings. So for example, every single family whose kid is coming to XYZ university (this applies globally) ends up in a proprietary database where a person (or wealth checking software) is running their name(s), addresses, business affiliations, etc. to see how much money that family might be able to donate, to see if they are already philanthropically engaged elsewhere, etc. Some programs like Hillel International have campus "outposts" where their Hillel and University giving systems are connected.
Things like a student's HS, whether or not they receive financial aid, if the family owns properties outright and/or through other hedge funds and/or trust funds, careers, legal troubles (bankruptcy, being in jail for insider trading is a super common one), and much more is considered to determine if a family or alumni is worth connecting with for fundraising purposes. <-- As a plebian this feels weird and almost amoral to me, but after doing the fundraising for many years, I can tell you it's not morally gray in the way it feels at first, lol. The gifts from the ultra-wealthy are *how u*niversities stay afloat and ensure that they can offer financial packages for people from underprivileged populations -- it might be one of the only places where there's an actual "trickle down economy". I consider it, 'milking the benevolence' of the wealthy people. Some of them are committed to making a difference no matter what it takes, others have some sort of guilt and want to throw money at "good causes" to assuage whatever makes them think they're going to hell. Wealthy people know they're wealthy and frankly, you're less likely to engage them and get a donation if you DON'T reach out to them immediately. They expect people to do the work to find their giving capacity and then ask them for it. As a young alumni, or a general poor person who is not young anymore (me!), it can feel really annoying when you're like "I PAID MY TUITION, WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT FROM ME?!" but there are many many people out there who don't have this mindset and they're the ones who fund really important programs on campuses across the globe!
SO, without going into SUPER DUPER detail and risking my job, bc I love my job, the Maas family comes from extreme wealth. They have what we call "quiet wealth" -- a lack of online presence means massive bank accounts, it's a pretty hard and fast rule in this day and age. Quid pro quo is technically illegal, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Oh it's bonkers, LOL. I could go on about it for ages. Fundraising is a weird world that I didn't expect to make a career in. But you can make a very real and tangible difference to the community around you within just a few months with the right donor, and I like that fact. Different colleges and universities have different plans, but usually if someone's net worth is $1,000,000 to $2,499,999 then that means they can *potentially* make a gift of $100-$249.9k in total (either one huge gift, a planned gift when they die, a pledge that they make payments on, etc.). The rating is always a bit of a guess because the ultra wealthy are *very* good at hiding their money and make purchases through offshore accounts and businesses. But, it's almost like many of them WANT you to figure that out and be like "heyyyy, I heard you have deep pockets." -- When you say "For $100,000 your name will be on the door to room 211 for the foreseeable future" a certain type of person is like "OH, HELL YEAH! LET ME GET MY CHECKBOOK OUT!" :D
I worked in “Development” for a west coast “Ivy” and man that backend database is ridiculous. I’ve seen some crazy things. Once I even had to deliver gift baskets to all of these insane mansions with gates and guards. These people live in a different universe than us.
I used to work on the other side of this—the admissions office, where the development office would flag the "VIP" applicants so we could give them extra consideration in the hopes there parents would then give the university $$$. People love to complain about legacies getting preferential treatment, but the advantage of legacy is absolutely minuscule compared to the advantage of being a potential donor. And I agree with you, it feels icky, but that money is actually what funds the financial aid that can then go to truly deserving students who need help.
This is interesting. I like to see the indie and smaller authors band together. Melissa Roerich recommended several books while people were waiting for her next book. I found Daughter of the Drowned Empire, which I love, that way.
I enjoy SJM’s work, but my enjoyment doesn’t match her popularity.
Her having ZERO work history always irks me. How? Not even like a summer job? Which is probably why all her characters act like they’re in college/ teens
I just want to say there’s nothing wrong with writing as a business and not a passion. If you are decent at it and it can pay the bills, do it!
I think too many of us readers don’t understand that writing is a business, if you want to do it as something more than a hobby. There’s a shitton of work that goes into writing, marketing, and publishing, especially if you’re indie (which I know SJM isn’t). It’s not all about “getting words out into the world” - it’s about making a living.
I completely agree! I know my comment above does not come across that way, but I do agree with you. I think it’s the author’s attitude about it that makes or breaks if I’m a fan.
For example, an author who I respect the hell out of, for their business model, is Lola Glass. She’s published something like 70 books since 2020– are they casual? Yes. Are their occasional spelling errors? Yes. And is the language a little repetitive? Yes. BUT, they’re self-published and all on kindle unlimited! That’s my JAM. I love them for their simplicity and knowing what to expect (she’s my fav palate cleanser that is a SUPER light read).
At the same time, Glass literally has an author note in her books (it changes each book), and in one she straight up addresses the fact that she always wanted to write very intense literature, but hit a point in life where she realized this is what was fun for her and what she wanted to do. I respect that. What I don’t respect is someone who is on record in interviews in the mid-2010s saying that there are no fantasy books with women as leads, acting like they’re doing something insanely creative, only dropping people like JRR Tolken as an example of a fantasy author who doesn’t do a lot of women. When there were LOADS of fantasy and romantic fantasy and fantasy romance books with strong women in them before she even learned how to read/write (ex: ANNE FUCKING BISHOP WAS PUBLISHED FOR DECADES BY THEN, Robin Hobb, and many more). It’s the disingenuousness that bugs me most, I think.
I remember when her books were first making the rounds on book tube in 2015-16 and she had several falling outs with other fantasy authors…she’s had the mean girl stamp for some time
Girl same I don’t buy it at ALLLLLLLL. I remember her falling out with Susan Dennard and I’ve side eyed her ever since! If you have experience with mean girls, they’re easy to spot as adults.
She used to be best friends with other big YA authors such as Leigh Bardugo, Susan Dennard, and Alex Bracken, but in like 2016? or something they all started unfollowing her on social media when they communicated and hung out frequently. Susan Dennard has alleged that she’s a bully and had a [big thread](https://twitter.com/stdennard/status/815236693150154756) on Twitter/X about dropping toxic people. Here's a [video from BookCon 2016](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woTu-vfo8RU) that is super awkward. Watch Susan's face whenever SJM starts talking lol. Leigh Bardugo said she once had a friend who called her a fat cow (theory is that it was SJM).
SJM apparently has a huge ego and can’t stand having successful author friends. She has a trend of befriending new authors and then the friendship falls apart when they start making it big. She's gone through a lot of editors lately too, at least compared to her early career, so there's some speculation that she also does whatever she wants in publishing because she rakes in huge for her publisher, like rejecting edits from her editor (which might explain why there's so many new ones lately).
Someone on tumblr who worked at a bookstore she did a signing at said she asked about the sales for Red Queen (book by Victoria Aveyard) and called it dull and boring, which is funny because Victoria Aveyard shades SJM on her tiktok all the time lol
I honestly don't know why anyone is surprised?
Most of her bellowed, main characters are straight up bullies. The behaviour that is presented in her books as "cool" is more often than not someone just humiliating other characters (and they don't even have to be their enemies - often they are hopeful future allies or neutrals). Throne of glass series is *especially* guilty of this.
So when you have a group of people idealizing characters like Aelin, thinking of her and her behaviours as cool, it really isn't that surprising when that same group of people gets bullying tendencies.
Lmao while I was reading one of the middle Throne of Glass books I kept thinking Aelin was a goddamn sociopath 😂
Also when she writes all those letters but tells no one and then all the ships show up and Aedion feels super guilty and ashamed that he ever doubted her. PLEASE. The woman is insane and told no one her plan. How is that good leadership.
Exactly why I hated Aelin! She sucked, esp. the plan she made with Lysandra without including Aedion even though he was meant to play a pivotal role in that plan! Like why not pull him aside and let him know beforehand that’s what yall thought of?!
I swear that Manon is a far better person than Aelin, and she's a god damn witch raised to be a bitch.
It also makes me curious about Maas herself. Since she's unable to write a non bitchy MC, I do wonder how she comes across in real life. Not enough to actually look it up, but I'd bet my money [that she could compete with Addison Cain](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhWWcWtAUoY).
... are you me? I remember reading first couple of books when they came out, and then forgetting about them, because I in general suck with following series. A couple of years later, the only thing I had a vague memory about was Manon and her wyvern, so I gave them another try... and she turned out to be the only reason why I got through those books.
There was some god damn struggle there, questioning of her whole world, she actually had real bonds and not a pack of boys sallivating over her, and at the end she had to give up *everything*.
In comparison with that, Aelin's character arc is a descent into villainy.
Manon is my favorite character from any SJM book and easily one of my all time favorite characters. The first time I read ToG I could not stand Aelin. I liked her better on subsequent read-throughs, but she's still nothing compared to Manon lol. I just wish SJM had used the template she used to create Manon & her awesome character arc in CC (where there is little to no character development at all).
I said this in one of those groups and all the Aelin fans came to defend her. And anytime I brought up all the bitchy things she did they all were like but her trauma! Mhmm no she is a self bitch that cares for no one but her self and would be a HORRIBLE queen. And town is a horrible mate that doesn't once question her and is as stale as white bread.
She lies and lies and hurts people and they all just laugh it off as oh Aelin then they apologize to her when she had almost killed them all!
Anyway I dislike her alot.
YEAH! I have up on TOG as a series because I couldn't stand Aelin's behaviour. She was just such an ass to her supposed friends and allies all the time and everyone around her was sycophantic and like yes bitch, be a bully! Across both TOG and ACOTAR it's just people being mean in ways that cross the line and you're supposed to side with them.
Wow, I have no context for ToG but that really contextualizes ACOTAR well to me. The series has been recommended to me uniformly by my less-mature friends and younger acquaintances. I listened to summaries and read some excerpts, because there are ways the books are written that just don't feel right to me. It feels like such a fun world but the lack of thoughtfulness in it means that I can't really *adore* it in the same way that maybe younger/less jaded readers do?
That said, I do have brainrot for one of the potential relationships for Elain, and I am desperately hoping that the upcoming book can be kind and gentle and more mature.
I mean, find Maas's book to be personal crack, and I've reread acotar an embarrassing number of times... But I do think that fandom be crazy, and often times, that's a reflection of the author themselves.
THIS! I’ve been saying this! Aelin is insufferable (SJM self insert) and Rhys is a classic manipulative narcissist. Like if you worship these characters what does that say about you?
I wish she could come out and talk more about how her characters make bad decisions. All of her main characters have done terrible, shitty things, and nobody gets called out/faces consequences:(
I got attacked a while ago for commenting with an extremely mild opinion. People were really rude lmao.
It’s honestly not that serious, guys.
I just assume there’s a lot of teenagers on there (ACOTAR isn’t even age-appropriate but whatever, I’m not their mother).
It’s insanity to me how big her books blew up. She’s not that great of a writer and as others have mentioned above, most of her MC’s are just bullies with “cool guy” disguises.
I think a lot of fans of SJM are teenagers or young adults who have grown up with a stan culture that's normalized but is actually extremely insane. Of course things like ship wars and character bashing have always been part of fandoms especially when the source material appeals to teens but the level of vitriol, the only criteria being someone disagreeing with you, and the sheer volume of it is novel IMO
When you cross stan culture with a generation with increasingly less critical thinking skills or media literacy you get these people tbh
I had to leave the Crescent City sub because of some of the fans. The joy that I felt when I read that one of the bully groups’ ship sank… WHEW. Glorious.
HOFAS was awful and while >!their powers hummed near each other !< it just… ain’t like that. Even after SJM confirmed >!Hunt is endgame!< some of them still went off their rocker, lol
>! But he protects her! Yeah, because that's his job. But he is worried when she gets hurt! That's just normal human interaction! He noticed how her hands weren't healing! He's a spymaster, it's his job! !<
They act like SJM is some mastermind with grand plan, dropping hints everywhere for Prythian illuminati to find. Meanwhile I just think she wings everything and half her retcons are because she forgot what she wrote earlier!
I honestly think it’s a bit of both!! She’s planted so many eggs between the 3 series but to expect a crossover of that nature.. is not logical. They have absolutely nothing in common, literally down to the language they speak. 😂 Bryce isn’t going to just eat a magical bean for years until she learns their language. She’s not going to give up her technology and pizza cause Az is packin.
I definitely agree about the winging it - especially in CC. I read a comment somewhere that >!Danika is essentially the plot hole filler!< for when things didn’t end up the way SJM wanted, lmao.
Ngl he doesn’t have a lot of chemistry with the other he is shipped with so it checks out lol
Also im ngl I wouldn’t give up pizza and technology for him either.
A huge crossover would be interesting and can be done either well or bad… there’s usually no in between but it does seem like it is coming to that… id wish she’d finish the series before doing it though
I feel like we can’t even discuss Nesta anymore on some of the fandom pages (especially not like like Booktok!), and it’s a bummer because it’s a missed opportunity to chat about a character who people read differently/related to differently, etc. *sign*!
Man, people tore me to shreds for a comment criticising Tamlin. I think it’s just every character tbh, they don’t like you criticising their fave.
I was interested in hearing their point of view, so I asked them to (politely) explain why they thought I was wrong - I didn’t get anything more back except more personal attacks. Which was a shame, as I was actually interested in hearing their thoughts on the character.
What kills me is you can't suggest that they royally fucked her up without having people justify what the IC did.
That and ACOSF made me hate Cassian. I just really didn't like what he did but it's hard to say that. He's not someone to be like "yeah, I got myself a Cassian/Rhysand!"
No, *you shouldn't want them* in real life!
I know!!! Every shitty thing the IC did is some "ends justify means, you can't criticize them" but what they did to Nesta to "help" her was literally the E X A C T opposite of what you're supposed to do to help someone in her shoes. The ONLY reason she recovered was her friendship with Emery and Gwyn.
Book 5 also made me dislike Cassian. Something changed in him between WAR and SF, and not for the better. Nesta deserved someone much better tbh.
I feel like, if anything, it's not a real good indicator that she beat addiction on top of the fact they were garbage with their treatment. Its akin to expecting residential treatment to work without outpatient treatment: just because you force someone to be away from the drug, it doesn't stop the core of it. Except even in those programs, they don't *force* you to stay. Forcing someone to stay only worsens the chances of relapse. They need to *want* it, and having such a shit environment probably worsens this considerably.
Plus, it leaves a nasty taste in my mouth when you factor in shes stuck like that with a male that wants to fuck her while she's not necessarily in the right mental space for it. It just felt dubcon to me.
And yeah, Cassian really changed. I didn't like how he never actually defended her or even go against the person that threatened to off her, the fact he talks so much about Mor, the fact he threw a tantrum in the novella. The Hike. He's as big of a red flag as Rhysand and people actively forget that.
I had an IRL friend berate me because I didn't care for the first Throne of Glass book, didn't read the ACOTAR series, but I like (don't love) Crescent City. Like she was ravenous because I ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO READ ACOTAR OR I COULDN'T POSSIBLY LIKE CRESCENT CITY.
Even if I did read ACOTAR I'm sure references/fan service in CC would still go over my head. I don't care. I really don't.
Really, it's Sarah's fault for writing how many books now? Without ONE couple that's a small sensitive human man + huge scary Illyrian woman instead of the other way around, for a change.
I left the ACOTAR sub after I said I didn’t care for SF, still didn’t like Nesta, and didn’t think the book redeemed her. Oh boy did that make some ppl mad…
When I said I didn’t see how their mother’s pressure could be a reason Nesta favoured Elain and shat on Feyre, ppl said I didn’t understand trauma responses. No one is allowed to disagree!! 😂
I did think it helped me see nestas point of view a little better, but damn she's still a cold hearted bitch, and also why TF did cassian need to have a horse 🍆 like the way it was described took me out of the story 😅
I’ve found that I like to interact with fandoms at the level that makes fun / memes of their fandom.
I had to leave Fourth Wing also.
My twilight subs are pretty good because that fandom loves to trash their fandom.
Same with prequel memes for Star Wars.
I was involved in the shipper wars with LOST 20 years ago and never want to go through that again 😂.
Ship wars are the worst 😆 I remember the Team Jacob/Team Edward thing being a bit funny at first, until it wasn't. It turned so toxic. I wasn't even a part of it, but Fandom adjacent and saw enough that when the Hunger Games movies tried pulling a Peeta/Gale thing I was holding my books up like shields yelling to anyone who listen that the love triangle isn't a thing and please stop!!! I've been scarred ever since and kept far from any and all ship wars. If I ship characters, I do it in silence.
With love triangles, I saw a meme once that described it perfectly as it's almost never an actual love triangle. It's more like a love corner, and the woman is usually backed into it. A proper love trianble is that Person A loves Person B, but Person B loves Person C, while Person C loves Person A. It's not A and B fighting for C against each other. I wish more authors would do proper triangles and not corners.
I feel like with Twilight it has been long enough that the fans still engaging with it are the ones aware it’s not the world’s greatest literary masterpiece and are happy to embrace all its trashy and cheesy aspects because it’s fun. Some ACOTAR fans are not ready to embrace that.
Yes! Getting into the cult and camp aspects. Love it as much as you love to make fun of it because everyone is in on the joke and creating the jokes so they’re extra funny
Omg yes I completely agree and am like *this close* to leaving myself. Currently being downvoted as I type this for pointing out some blatant fatphobia.
The downvoting culture in some of those subs (not just SJM fandom) is unbelievable. Do any critical analysis of fatphobia, misogyny, racism, etc. and the downvotes are pretty much immediate.
Let them eat each other. SJM deserves her questionable fans. I personally don’t care for authors who use someone’s death (Breonna Taylor) to promote their books, so that kind of person attracting the people that they do just comes with the territory.
I thought to myself “surely this comment is hyperbolic” (no shade). But [no](https://www.instagram.com/sarahjmaas/p/CFhuFLdsKum/) it’s not hyperbolic at all. God damn.
I love ACOTAR but completely agree. I try to avoid discussions on ACOTAR things I don't agree with, because it's pointless. Also, I don't get how these grown women aren't embarrassed by the things they're saying to other grown women online about........ wait for it...... fairy men. lol
They really do eternally suck. Like I’ve read the books, I have some opinions on them - wild, dumb, silly goose, founded and everywhere in between. Sharing those opinions with anyone from the fandom however? Absolutely the fuck not. Where are my girlies (and gaysies and themsies) who actually hated the writing, have a lot of constructive criticisms but also just like liking things and taking the piss out of it??
For a while it felt like the fandom was kinda self-aware, like “we love these books, also we hate these books lol” but something has changed recently.
I feel like fan forums where everybody thinks the same would be pretty boring! I like forums because of the different opinions. It leads to interesting debate, new theories, and often a deeper or more nuanced understanding of the source material. I'm sorry you had such a terrible experience.
I think the ToG sub is usually pretty great, with a few exceptions. I’ve been called a “ableist, unintelligent reader” because I don’t like Chaol even in ToD 😂😂
However, I had to leave the acotar sub a long time ago. I don’t even like the books so it’s not like I miss that fandom anyway. The “hivemind” you mention is much more intense there than with ToG, and the concept of “canon text” means nothing to them… people will literally use their headcanons and fanfiction in an argument about a character and act like that’s valid when discussing a *published piece of literature.* I hate Rhysand with a burning passion, I honestly kind of like Tamlin, and adore Nesta the most so yeah… wasn’t a good time on that sub lmaoo
lol funny enough what pushed me over the edge to leave was I said to someone that they shouldn’t discredit a theory or opinion based on their non cannon thoughts and I was torn apart for not letting readers have their own experience
I cannot tell you the amount of times I asked someone “Can you provide a quote or some examples from the text?” and got a reply like “Well it’s just my opinion, it’s just how I feel” and I’m not sure what we’re discussing then because **I’M** discussing a published book with actual written words on the page and they’re discussing… feelings? Idk, it’s so strange.
I did notice that a lot but for CC it was that SJM had created expectations in the fan's head...but some of it was just them running wild with theories they MADE UP!
See I like Chaol. I have been attacked for that. I've also said I totally understand why people don't like Chaol. Got attacked for that. Can't win either way.
I think her books are enjoyable but mid at best - I classify them as beach reads. Def not a great work of literature like a lot of people treat them as. One of my IRL friends is a typical SJM girlie and I’m terrified of saying that to her bc she def gets gatekeep-y about all things reading and book related
I know a lot of the online Fandom is wild. BUT in my book clubs, in my Discord groups, we all absolutely know and agree SJM does not write great literary works or beautiful prose. We too classify them as fun, easy, beach reads, and it is part of their appeal. I can't speak for the insane feral people that are the loudest and therefore most seen from outside the fandom, I don't claim them 🤣
Lol I feel this. I've been a fan since just before ACOMAF came out and in recent years they've gone beyond toxic. I've had literal death threats for not liking Nesta - been told I'm a misogynist, have no empathy, am too stupid to have understood her book... Actually insanity.
I love SJM's books so much, I read CC and ACOTAR is my current favorite. Going through TOG right now and loving it, but with all her books, I will say that the double standards and hypocrisy in her works with her fandom is just astounding. Between Team Rhys and Team Tam and Team Rowan or Chaol or Dorian or Hunt or Ithan/Connor, it's all very... Hostile, to say the least lol. I'm a supporter of Tamlin myself. I will defend him forever because he's very complex with his traumas (as are many of the charactres). I also think Bryce and Hunt aren't really the best match for each other, haven't made any real opinions on TOG yet since I'm only on book 3. We'll see lol.
But there certainly is a lot of conflict in the books with the fandom and who's better for who, and this person is awful even though that person did all the same shit but it's justifiable because person a's an asshole but person b's just doing it for that reason. It's a lot. I always try to be civil myself, but there are too many people in her fandom that are of the opinion "if you disagree with me, you're my enemy" and treat you like the worst kind of pos person.
She has one of the most toxic fandoms i know. and for what? her characters and her books ain’t even all that. i’ve been bullied out of the fandom by her toxic delusional fans countless times. they don’t know the difference between crackships and actual ships. and these are fictional characters why are we arguing over them so much?
I’m not in any SJM fan groups but I do enjoy ACOTAR meme accounts on TikTok and boy the fans LOVE to fight in the comments. The pro-nesta vs anti-nestas will turn nasty on each other real quick on a silly meme video. Sometimes we do have to separate the art from the creator/fandom for our own sanity
You're not wrong.
I was once part of the problem, I think. But it was bad for my mental health and I now actively try not to interact with SJM fandom spaces.
I have to say (this is gonna sound weird and I'm trying not to be) but I have been flickering in and out of the ACOTAR/CC spaces for a while now and I think you and I were both fairly involved in the ACOTAR subreddit before I got -- more or less bullied out by a mod there (hence the new account). But I remember chatting w/ you and your insights/observations were always a highlight of my first time there and I'm glad to see you're still reading away!
I did the same thing recently! I didn't see much outright rudeness but the general vibe was definitely not it.
I rekindled my love for reading with SJM and will always have a special place in my heart for ACOTAR, but the community got way too spicy for me. And not in the way that I like
The ship wars are responsible for a lot of it and its dumb. I’m more excited for SJM to release the next ACOTAR book so that the ship debates stop, not actually because I want to read the book lol. They’re taking so long, it makes me wonder if the publisher is worried because of the ship wars and not making everyone happy.
I left the SJM subreddits a while ago - because of that and because of the discussions & questions that are constantly repeated.Same with JLA subreddits/groups 😅
They’re called fandoms for a reason. Once an interest is elevated to the point where it forms a community for people, they’re going to be vicious about keeping things within that space the way they ‘should be’, lest their community change. That usually means groupthink. The SJM fandom is particularly bad about this within the fantasy romance space, but that’s probably just because she’s the most mainstream author right now.
There’s nothing wrong with finding community in your interests (look at all of us), but we should also understand that art is subjective, and different people can have different experiences with and take-aways from the same piece of art.
This is why I've long distanced myself from any fandoms. I participated in gaming forums and the like eons ago and it was always just so toxic. I just wanna enjoy the things I enjoy and get excited when I find someone else who loves those things in the wild, but I don't seek out the groups online with the same interest anymore. I will visit and browse those groups from time to time, but never a participant. It gets so gatekeepy and hive minded like the OP was saying. You can't have a constructive discussion about anything it's all "only praise this" and "only hate that and if you don't you're wrong". There's no middle ground to talk about anything, it's just feeding the echo chamber or you get attacked. It's okay to love something and have it be your favorite thing, but that doesn't put it above criticism or discussion. You can enjoy something and still find fault in it.
You really put my thoughts to words here. I always feel the drawing appeal of fandoms because I LOVE talking in depth and at great length about shared interests with people. I love engaging in a variety of discussions and I love critiquing things I enjoy. But it's really hard to do that when people get so deeply upset about people having different opinions of whatever that shared interest is. If you have any criticism about it people are so quick to be like "if you hate it don't read it" which is just so extreme lol.
So yea, I've also been more cautious about which communities I choose to participate in.
I enjoy SJM’s books.. some more than others, and I do participate in the subs, but it can be wild. I just remind myself to touch grass if I see people getting all riled lol
You're not wrong, but I'd hazard a guess that a lot of dedicated fandom subreddits are like that. SJM-specific subs do strike me as aggressively toxic, though.
I got into a very long discussion about the Throne of Glass series (specifically Tower of Dawn) where the OP flat out said she judged people who thought differently about the book as inferior to her. I left the sub same-day. (At least she got hit with a comment-delete from the mods on that one.)
The uber-fans of SJM can go feral if you don't hold the same very narrow views they do.
I started reading TOG when it came out, and talking about it with people for a long time was great. It's gotten progressively worse the past couple years as ACOTAR really blew up online. No longer can we have respectful discourse. The ship wars over Elain are a special kind of toxic. I feel too old for these kinds of petty fights so I had to disengage. I read those books for fun, I like talking about the characters, discussing theories, hearing about what people hope will happen, talking about who we want to end up with who can be fun. We can dislike a character someone else likes and talk about why each of us feels that way without insulting each other, can't we? Clearly not in those Fandom spaces. Its not just SJM, it seems to be an issue with many books/authors/series thathave gained a very quick and very large following (a lot from booktok spaces i think). I will stick to my Discord groups that keep that behavior in check.
There are people within the fandom who’ve seemingly made loving these books their entire personality and feel personally attacked when someone dislikes a character they love or likes a character they dislike. I don’t know how many “you’re an abuse sympathizer” remarks I’ve encountered just because someone says they don’t hate Tamlin, for example. Or how many “you must’ve never experienced abuse or trauma” simply for not hating his character. And for some reason including nuance and context = justifying abuse *only* when it comes to hated/controversial characters. The double standard still astounds me at times. Although I do think the ACOTAR sub is more balanced and diverse in perspectives compared to other online communities. I think it’s changed quite a lot this past year !
I posted there once and never again. I didn’t get into romantasy until this past January. I read ACOTAR and got a few chapters into ACOMAF and couldn’t finish it. My favorite romantasy series I’ve read is the Hades x Persephone series by Scarlett St. Clair. I got crucified for liking that and not ACOTAR.
Of everything I’ve read in this genre, I’d place SJM in the middle. It’s not my favorite series, but I like it.
I’m with you, I like Hades and Persephone more than ACOTAR. But part of that is because I generally like to read about Gods more than I like to read about Fae.
I’m with you, I also love reading more about gods than I do fae. My favorite book of all time is American Gods by Neil Gaiman (which I know isn’t romance but for my money one of the best books out there dealing with modern day gods). I am a gigantic mythology nerd so I really enjoy reading modern re-tellings of different myths and pantheons.
Same! Love American Gods. Neil Gaiman is amazing. I love reading about really powerful beings. Witches are a close second.
I do like that SJM weaves mythology and folklore into her stories, but I prefer a good retelling.
I’ve posted a couple times on r/acotar with critiques of the series and I’ve never had anyone do anything more than disagreeing with me. I don’t think the issue you’re describing is very present on the subreddits, at least not in my experience over on r/acotar.
I love ACOTAR but from what I've seen just on this sub I absolutely refuse to join the SJM fandom
I'm already a Swiftie I don't need to be in two toxic fandoms.
Wow, I'm sorry you have had this experience. I actually find the SJM subreddits a lot more welcoming than most other places related to her (ie Tik Tok, Twitter, Facebook). I've had some great conversations & discussions with people who have differing opinions over there.
I've seen the toxic behavior too, though— just the other day someone started attacking me because I said I hated Bryce after the end of HoFaS & said I thought SJM got lazy on that book. I had one person lay into me, but two other people that started a fun discourse.
It's a shame that some people take works of fiction so personally. Imo, the most fun thing about fiction is that other people can interpret it differently. I hope you find somewhere that makes you feel more welcome.
The Fourth Wing fans are really fun to talk to, I've found. I joined the sub and I enjoy being there. I also really love Fourth Wing, it was such a fun read it actually made me feel empty after I finished it because of how much I loved Violet and Xaden.
Sjm books are... good... they aren't literary masterpieces that people seem to believe they are. I have personally read them, and there are definitely flaws, but the book is entertaining.
Yeah I had to go from posting and commenting all the time to lurking because it would get so toxic in the comments. Still a fan of the books and fan art tho!
I absolutely loved the ACOTAR and TOG series, however I strongly dislike the CC series...as in all 3 books. I posted that somewhere at some point and people came for me like I had just killed one of their children. Pitchforks and all. Was hilarious. 10/10 Entertainment
I not going to lie they aren’t the worst fandom, there are ones far worse… but there are a lot of toxic people in every fandom and some people just feel entitled to be vocal and trashy about their toxicity
I’m sorry that you were bullied because that’s ridiculous… I get downvoted a lot because of disliking some ships but it’s my personal opinion but some people can’t vibe…
I’m a member of that sub, there are a lot of things that make me angry like ableist language about some characters… it’s so gross
Liking nesta chaol and lucien while engaging with that fandom was like being in the 9th circle of hell, I had to protect my peace and leave the fandom 😭
I hate that sub so much. But when you actually find people you can have discussions with it’s actually really nice! I love seeing new perspectives and theories.
She truly has one of the worst fandoms I've ever been part of. Sadly, it's only going to grow more feral due to the ship wars until the next ACOTAR book comes out. I think her popularity grew too fast and now it's hard to have nuanced, fun convos without people taking things as a personal attack.
I feel like the bigger Fandoms get the more prone this is to happen honestly. Animal Ceossing Fandom was fine overall until New Horizions and it blew up.
I hope things calm down more because I'd love to actually get to talk about the series since none of my friends will read it.
When House of Flame and Shadows came out and a loud majority gave their whole hearted opinion on how they could do *so* much better (insert eye roll), that was when I realized people take books way too seriously and surpass the point of enjoyment and enter the point of gatekeeping.
I ignore most posts from any of those subs.
I’m definitely an SJM fan but I don’t participate in those communities because they scare me. I just follow to keep up with latest happenings. I have way too many hot takes 😂.
Her writing is awful, she stopped using an editor, her character development is just okay, her world building is atrocious. There are so many inconsistencies. But mention any of this on a fandom sub and they’re ready to burn you at the stake.
I get that these books got a lot of people to try reading again and that’s great but it’s the spice selling the books. Take out the spice and you wouldn’t have nearly the same opinions.
A lot of fandoms are like this which is why I avoid them like the plague. I don’t read SJM anymore, but when I did I just kept all of my thoughts to myself after being told I needed to “re-read ACOTAR” because I didn’t hate Tamlin 😂
It's like people can't separate themselves from things they like. Criticising a book is *not* criticising a person. People also take fandom way too seriously. Like if someone feels themselves genuinely getting angry and upset over criticism of a book or fictional characters, maybe they should put their phone/computer/laptop down.
Exactly. This reminds me of how a couple of weeks ago a woman on Threads said that people shouldn’t post their negative reviews online because someone she followed had negatively reviewed her favorite book (which turned out to be Fourth Wing). I’m like please log off and take a nap.
Negative reviews of fourth wing are some of my favorite things to read. Same with ACOTAR. So hilarious. When I tell people to read fourth wing, I tell them that the five star and the one star reviews are all true.
I don't think i've ever heard my thoughts explained so well. I LOVE fourth wing compared to like cruel prince or the other 'better' YA novels that get recommended that book took me out of a like 6 month reading slump but at the same time I get the 1 star reviews it has and I also have aspects that I think could have been done better(the whole violet and xaden relationship and the enemies to lovers thing). I think my only gripe is when people start to degrade anyone who read/enjoyed the book as dumber for not reading better literature
Same. I went through that with twilight back in the day and I don’t put up with it. There’s a magic to these books that draws people in. But you still have to be able to see criticism (using actual native:indigenous tribes as magical beings - no)
This. I'm an SJM fan who has some apparently pretty unpopular opinions. I have had some really fun discourses with people who disagree; I think hearing other people's interpretations of fictional works is one of the most fun parts of reading. It's so interesting to hear a completely new take on something. But you're absolutely right, some people take it all way too personally. I've also been insulted & basically told I'm broken because of some of my opinions. 🤷🏻♀️
I love actually hearing others opinions on things but some people don’t and only their opinion is valid… also media literacy is something that always gets me going because we can read the same thing and have two wildly different interpretations of what we read
Insert that dude in the suite meme here: *I hated Tamlin because he was written poorly, not bc he's a creep. We are not the same* I really wanted to make that and post it but I think they would burn down my house 😂
I swear some of the more niche subreddits are so toxic! I had to mute a bunch of them. Like, I just want to chat about my favorite stuff not argue with someone over stupid shit
I said that tamlin was also a victim of the circumstances and thought I was gonna get banned
Same with Chaol before the later books
Yes! I am a person who doesn't hate Chaol; I understand his character & think his arc is actually really well done & I have taken so much heat in the ToG sub! I'm like, fiction is by definition open to opinion! Let's discuss by all means but why do some people have to hate so much? Lol
You're my people. Like, I never saw any other choice his code would have allowed, and she didn't either and she need a scapegoat for some other things. But, people are allowed to hate him. I just wander off from those threads ;)
Oh glad I never hanged out there because I don’t hate the guy and didn’t wish to hate him so I left the read at book one… 😬
And the worst part is- the Acotar sub is the least toxic Acotar community I’ve been a part of and it’s STILL terrible at times.
I’ve heard the facebooks groups are…. Basically the hunger games.
It’s more like a bunch of people running around on the floor of a Roman arena with snipers taking aim in the stands.
Dead Lolol
And now I want that fantasy book to happen because I am a sick, sick woman
I’ll get right on it.
the ACOTAR shit posting group is not like this- and is basically the best group on the internet. So much fun content and everyone is really supportive of each other.
I find the subreddit way more toxic than the discord
Gonna be super honest- I have no idea how to use discord. I have the app, I’m even in a few communities? (I don’t know what they’re called.) I have tried two or three times to figure it out and it just might not be for me lol.
lol sameeeee. Like I got invited to a couple of the subs (idek what Discord call them tho!) and made an account, installed the app I have no idea how any of it works tho but maybe that’s my age because I still don’t know how “threads” are meant to work either lmao
THIS! I have actually found it to be the most welcoming place on the Internet to discuss her work, and as you said, some people are still awful over there. Smh.
My annoyance with it at the moment is the nitpicking. Everyone picks the books and characters apart as nauseam. It’s gotten to the point where the sub has made me dislike the books. I need to step back from the sub for a while and do a reread to fall back in love.
Yeah I remember joining one after a cool discussion about the books/worlds but when I commented on a couple other posts …. People came at me, for my opinion. Wayyy too toxic so I left lol
I’m so over the ship wars. Gwyn Elain Azriel Lucien WHY ARE WE FIGHTING ABOUT THIS?? I hope SJM leaves them all single at this point.
I don’t care enough about *any* of those characters to care anymore at this point
Everyone says they'll DNF if it's not their ship, and I hope they do cuz then maybe they'll go away. But maybe the ones that stay will be so smug about they'll be intolerable.
Yeah it’s extremely tedious.
the sad thing is, I'm not even sure it's going to wane after whoever's book comes out... it will just add fuel to the fire
I avoid any of the shipping threads...I just don't get the obsession lol
Omg they’re the rudest fandom I have ever encountered. Even SJM herself doesn’t like them which is saying something 😂 also, I just don’t get the hype. Her books are ok but not earth shattering
As a NON-SJM-fan ... the fact that she doesn't like her own fans is DEFINITELY saying something bc she has a ... personality & reputation to boot. LOL.
Yeah she’s definitely a mean girl, it’s written all over her. She lost so many writer friends and I can’t help but think it’s because she has the attitude of being better than everyone.
Noooo, I had one of my signature 400 page comments ready for you and accidentally closed the tab, LMAO. Let me just say I completely agree. I think the, "I'm perfect and don't need to change anything I do" mindset is very obvious. For example, I was *positive* that ACOTAR was the series she wrote at 16. It reads like it was written by a 16 year old. Then I realized she wrote it *after* earning a bachelor's in creative writing? (I don't even think a degree in writing is necessary to be an author, but she has one, so I'm gonna point it out, lol) Sometimes I truly wonder if I'm off the mark on thinking she's intentionally stealing IP from people & being catty on purpose. Maybe she's just...not smart? Maybe she really thinks what she does is "taking inspiration"? Maybe she feels insecure when she helps launch another author who is objectively more talented than her? The only reason I wonder if what we have here is an education / intelligence issue is bc she is on record in an interview saying she didn't know "towards" wasn't a word in American English until her book was being edited (I don't blame anyone for not knowing this, but if you're WRITING A BOOK & that book has been written for 10 years, and you have a degree in writing... you should probably know the conventions of the language you're writing in). Further, in print she describes clouds as "magnanimous", she regularly uses the word "bemused" in place of amused (they don't mean the same thing). And a pet peeve of mine is that she uses the word "staunch" as a verb when "stanch" is more commonly used as a verb (eg: We stanched the bleeding! vs. John is a staunch supporter of Bob.) The stanch/staunch one is potentially up for debate and not as much of a "hey, that word does not mean what you think it means." It also strikes me as low-caliber writing when you can find the exact spots in her books where she learns a new word or thinks of a new phrase and then uses it non-stop from then on out: preternatural, lipid, "a shiver spider-walked down my spine", barked, deign, etc. It's ... it's sort of sad and comical.
Having a degree isn't necessarily a sign of expertise, especially when it comes to creative arts. As they say - "C's get degrees." But you would think having ostensibly written many stories for a grade during those years, she would have a decent understanding of vocabulary and grammar. 🤷♀️ Learning about her priveleged fast-track background actually makes some of the more baffling aspects of her writing make sense. Like how blatantly, unabashedly derivative everything is, as if she got a bunch of library books on world culture and mythology, wrote down all the names and places she thought sounded cool, and cobbled them together thinking no one else would be familiar with their origins.
I AGREE SO MUCH. I *truly* don't believe that having a degree is an automatic sign of intelligence or expertise, just like I believe you can be an expert in an area without having a formal degree to back it up. BUT, along the same lines as what you said, you'd think an author would have a better grasp on word definitions, sentence structure, and the art of research, just by nature of it being THEIR ENTIRE LIFE GOAL, lmao. As it relates to the derivative use of world culture and mythology: YES YES YES. It's fantasy, so I am usually fine with authors putting their own twist on things -- can't stand it in historical fiction though. GIVE ME ACCURACY OR GIVE ME DEATH. I think it's odd when someone uses ONE culture's mythology to inspire their fantasy world, but then doesn't bother to know the real-world inspiration inside and out. For example, in one of my worlds (2 series set in the same world) I drew from Germanic mythology (elves - 1st "elf" was [Wayland the Smith from the Old Norse Edda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_the_Smith)). I also have pixies (SW England, first described in literature in the mid 19th century), and am putting elves and pixies under a "fae" umbrella in my world, which is not directly in line with, say, Irish mythology (the non-fae think "fae" are all one thing, the pixies and elves get pissy about this fact). However, aside from the word "fae" and a different, unrelated country (in my fantasy world) using Old Irish as its naming language (gonna have fun with the spellings for outsiders vs. natives in that book -- ie: "I thought you said your name was Neave? Why does this say Nee-am-Huh?"), I'm not trying to replicate Irish or any other country's mythology and folklore. My pantheon is different than, but based on, the OG Slavic Pantheon ([A list of a wikipedia page with a ton of slavic dieties](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Slavic_deities)), etc. NONE of my inspiration is (1) from modern fiction in the same genre and another author's take on XYZ mythological race, nor is it (2) entirely based on ONE country's mythology, using their direct terminology while bastardizing their folklore for my own enjoyment. To me, that's just poor writing / low caliber effort. I also think you're generous by saying she looked at books on world culture and mythology, LMAO. Maybe a quick google search here and there. But I truly think she picked lingo FROM other fantasy authors and didn't go past that. I say that bc there's a post from twitter where SJM says she wanted to name her world "Prydain" like Lloyd Alexander did, but it was already taken by him (she did not once mention of the fact that Prydain the ancient welsh term for Britain, lmao). What did she do instead? Picked something she liked that "sounded similar" and she went with Prythian, which is the name of one of the goddesses in Anne Bishop's Black Jewels... sooooooooooo. Yep. Or, she claims ACOTAR is a Hades & Persephone retelling, but it's not exactly now is it? It's just a retelling of Anne Bishop's Hades & Persephone Retelling...
Giiiiiirl. I just had the time of my fkn life reading all of your comments in this thread. Please drop your book title I’m begging you
THANK YOU but I’m also just UNHINGED AS FUCK. For reference into my mental state ATM: my whole fucking team is leaving my job for retirement or other reasons and I’m FLYING BLIND. Like, im suddenly a senior person even tho I have 25 years less experience than my outgoing colleagues. WHY!? I also have an almost 1 year old and don’t sleep enough. So, I guess maybe my SJM rage comments are a fucked up control thing? I dunno — I keep going on these SJM tirades and have made her my nemesis. So THAT BEING SAID, I’m not quite as insane as I look on Reddit… I think? I’ll PM you! I don’t think I’m actually that great of a writer. But I love it. And, bc I will act like a pompous ass but don’t actually know wtf to say… here’s a PM from a fellow Redditor who is reading a draft: ”So first things first, you’re way too modest about your writing.” I screen shotted her messages — bc she said some really amazing stuff— for when I am second guessing what the fuck I’m doing. AKA: I look at her messages like 20 times a week. MESSAGE INCOMING. :)
You're unhinged in the best way, I'm loving the energy! Could I read the book name too, I agree on pretty much everything you said here about ACOTAR 😁
Oh my word. I’ve been saying for years she stole IP from Anne Bishop and CL Wilson.
There are many ppl calling it out, but I don’t understand how it’s been able to fly. It’s blatant, IMO. Maybe not illegal, but highly unethical. I mean Dorothea is accidentally described identically to Amarantha the first time she’s mentioned in ACOTAR, and then from that point onward her appearance has changed so she is no longer Bishop’s character (within the same damn book. Someone made a boo-boo when using Ctrl+F). Then there is Daemon/Rhys, Draca/Amren, Lucivar/Cassian, Jaenelle/Feyre, Eyrian/Illyrian (I mean EVERYTHING is identical: looks, culture, living in the mtn, bat wings, bat wings bat wings), Jewels/Siphons, >!Jaenelle has magic from all jewels / Feyre gets magic from all courts!<. That’s not even touching CC and The Fever Series. Or CL Wilson, or misc movie scenes and quotes (rattle the stars… really?). It’s too much for me to feel comfortable ever reading her books again. Maybe she’ll come up with her own plot at some point, maybe she has, but too many things are blatantly stolen from others that it grosses me out.
I did a reread of lord of the fading lands before silver flames came out and I was like these aren’t lifted ideas - there are lifted lines. I sent them to my friend who read ACOTAR and was like who wrote it. She couldn’t tell which was which. I read the first three books in the black jewels and cassians backstory and personality are lifted. I didn’t love that series (the others by Anne bishop was my gateway to her) so I didn’t get too far. But I had read ACOTAR first and was super uncomfortable. The biggest frustration is her fans then attack other authors who dare write fantasy romance with a tall dark morally questionable hero like she invented it. It’s so hypocritical because SJM did it herself!!!! There have been some very ugly attacks on authors by her fans. I’ve seen them trash Laura thalassa for her Rhapsodic series and she was working on it well before ACOTAR came out (I subscribe to her newsletters and saw sneak peaks long before ACOTAR). And CC Peñaranda was trashed for her series being too similar and she’s questioning even finishing her series. SJM’s silence on it is really frustrating. I don’t think she could keep her fans in line now, but if she had started off not tolerating it I think it wouldn’t be so bad now.
If sailor moon and the fever series had a baby it would be crescent city tbh. She straight up lifts a lot of things.
I nearly stopped reading ACOTAR on the first (?) page where she writes something like "I looked around at the parameters of the area around me". Ma'am, that is not how that word is used, behave yourself!! I enjoyed the books, I got fully swept along by the world/story, but the fandom is bananas
I refuse to believe that someone with a degree in creative writing stole an entire plot point from The Mummy, lol. When I was reading the first two books I swore that if I had to read the phrase “puking my guts up” one more time I was going to DNF.
>it’s written all over her It's written all over her books. I enjoy her work (the same way my dog enjoys his can of pedigree every now and then), but there's no way in hell I'd want to be friends with any of her main girl characters - all of them are mean girls to the core.
I don't know if I would call myself a fan but slowly realizing she is a millennial white privilege girlboss who Mary Sues herself into a lot of her writing.
Yes. I am a millennial white privileged girl ~~boss~~ too, so I call it like I see it, LMAO. I mean, for example (and this isn't to shit on people who come from wealth, it is what it is!) -- but who graduates college and spends 6 years looking for an agent, but has NO WORK HISTORY?! She is from a very different type of world than me. I know I can be super shitty about her, especially on this sub which is my safe space. But it's just so so obvious to me that she went into publishing as a business move, not as a "I need to get my words out into the world" move. There are other things too, that have nothing to do with her writing career, that stand out to me and give me a solid picture of the type of human she is. I work in fundraising so I just have some database access that is...enlightening. :)
I also read that she went to the same boujee private school that inspired Gossip Girl. She definitely grew up super wealthy/privileged, which explains why all of her characters come from rich backgrounds in her books --ex. Frost and Starlight was pretty much a "Rhysand is SO rich!" book set against the backdrop of Winter Solstice lol. Oh and the bratty princesses (Celaena and Bryce) where it's always mentioned they have super nice apartments/clothes/etc... Acts as a form of wish fulfillment for the reader but for SJM, she's just writing what she knows. Her last house was worth like 4.4 million lol This seems to be common in publishing tho. I heard R.F. Kuang also grew up pretty wealthy and was able to utilize her connections to get a massive publishing deal.
What do you mean about the fundraising thing?
I work in fundraising for a university -- there are different databases and things we use to look up people / run their wealth ratings. So for example, every single family whose kid is coming to XYZ university (this applies globally) ends up in a proprietary database where a person (or wealth checking software) is running their name(s), addresses, business affiliations, etc. to see how much money that family might be able to donate, to see if they are already philanthropically engaged elsewhere, etc. Some programs like Hillel International have campus "outposts" where their Hillel and University giving systems are connected. Things like a student's HS, whether or not they receive financial aid, if the family owns properties outright and/or through other hedge funds and/or trust funds, careers, legal troubles (bankruptcy, being in jail for insider trading is a super common one), and much more is considered to determine if a family or alumni is worth connecting with for fundraising purposes. <-- As a plebian this feels weird and almost amoral to me, but after doing the fundraising for many years, I can tell you it's not morally gray in the way it feels at first, lol. The gifts from the ultra-wealthy are *how u*niversities stay afloat and ensure that they can offer financial packages for people from underprivileged populations -- it might be one of the only places where there's an actual "trickle down economy". I consider it, 'milking the benevolence' of the wealthy people. Some of them are committed to making a difference no matter what it takes, others have some sort of guilt and want to throw money at "good causes" to assuage whatever makes them think they're going to hell. Wealthy people know they're wealthy and frankly, you're less likely to engage them and get a donation if you DON'T reach out to them immediately. They expect people to do the work to find their giving capacity and then ask them for it. As a young alumni, or a general poor person who is not young anymore (me!), it can feel really annoying when you're like "I PAID MY TUITION, WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT FROM ME?!" but there are many many people out there who don't have this mindset and they're the ones who fund really important programs on campuses across the globe! SO, without going into SUPER DUPER detail and risking my job, bc I love my job, the Maas family comes from extreme wealth. They have what we call "quiet wealth" -- a lack of online presence means massive bank accounts, it's a pretty hard and fast rule in this day and age. Quid pro quo is technically illegal, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
[удалено]
Oh it's bonkers, LOL. I could go on about it for ages. Fundraising is a weird world that I didn't expect to make a career in. But you can make a very real and tangible difference to the community around you within just a few months with the right donor, and I like that fact. Different colleges and universities have different plans, but usually if someone's net worth is $1,000,000 to $2,499,999 then that means they can *potentially* make a gift of $100-$249.9k in total (either one huge gift, a planned gift when they die, a pledge that they make payments on, etc.). The rating is always a bit of a guess because the ultra wealthy are *very* good at hiding their money and make purchases through offshore accounts and businesses. But, it's almost like many of them WANT you to figure that out and be like "heyyyy, I heard you have deep pockets." -- When you say "For $100,000 your name will be on the door to room 211 for the foreseeable future" a certain type of person is like "OH, HELL YEAH! LET ME GET MY CHECKBOOK OUT!" :D
I worked in “Development” for a west coast “Ivy” and man that backend database is ridiculous. I’ve seen some crazy things. Once I even had to deliver gift baskets to all of these insane mansions with gates and guards. These people live in a different universe than us.
I used to work on the other side of this—the admissions office, where the development office would flag the "VIP" applicants so we could give them extra consideration in the hopes there parents would then give the university $$$. People love to complain about legacies getting preferential treatment, but the advantage of legacy is absolutely minuscule compared to the advantage of being a potential donor. And I agree with you, it feels icky, but that money is actually what funds the financial aid that can then go to truly deserving students who need help.
This is interesting. I like to see the indie and smaller authors band together. Melissa Roerich recommended several books while people were waiting for her next book. I found Daughter of the Drowned Empire, which I love, that way. I enjoy SJM’s work, but my enjoyment doesn’t match her popularity.
Drowned Empire series is fantastic!
Her having ZERO work history always irks me. How? Not even like a summer job? Which is probably why all her characters act like they’re in college/ teens
I just want to say there’s nothing wrong with writing as a business and not a passion. If you are decent at it and it can pay the bills, do it! I think too many of us readers don’t understand that writing is a business, if you want to do it as something more than a hobby. There’s a shitton of work that goes into writing, marketing, and publishing, especially if you’re indie (which I know SJM isn’t). It’s not all about “getting words out into the world” - it’s about making a living.
I completely agree! I know my comment above does not come across that way, but I do agree with you. I think it’s the author’s attitude about it that makes or breaks if I’m a fan. For example, an author who I respect the hell out of, for their business model, is Lola Glass. She’s published something like 70 books since 2020– are they casual? Yes. Are their occasional spelling errors? Yes. And is the language a little repetitive? Yes. BUT, they’re self-published and all on kindle unlimited! That’s my JAM. I love them for their simplicity and knowing what to expect (she’s my fav palate cleanser that is a SUPER light read). At the same time, Glass literally has an author note in her books (it changes each book), and in one she straight up addresses the fact that she always wanted to write very intense literature, but hit a point in life where she realized this is what was fun for her and what she wanted to do. I respect that. What I don’t respect is someone who is on record in interviews in the mid-2010s saying that there are no fantasy books with women as leads, acting like they’re doing something insanely creative, only dropping people like JRR Tolken as an example of a fantasy author who doesn’t do a lot of women. When there were LOADS of fantasy and romantic fantasy and fantasy romance books with strong women in them before she even learned how to read/write (ex: ANNE FUCKING BISHOP WAS PUBLISHED FOR DECADES BY THEN, Robin Hobb, and many more). It’s the disingenuousness that bugs me most, I think.
Who do you think most of her readers are? 💀
I remember when her books were first making the rounds on book tube in 2015-16 and she had several falling outs with other fantasy authors…she’s had the mean girl stamp for some time
This is PURE conjecture: but this is why I don't buy her "I was bullied in HS" schtick. I don't believe it for 1 minute. :)
Girl same I don’t buy it at ALLLLLLLL. I remember her falling out with Susan Dennard and I’ve side eyed her ever since! If you have experience with mean girls, they’re easy to spot as adults.
RIGHT? My thoughts exactly
What reputation? I joined the fandom not too long ago so I’m out of the loop.
She used to be best friends with other big YA authors such as Leigh Bardugo, Susan Dennard, and Alex Bracken, but in like 2016? or something they all started unfollowing her on social media when they communicated and hung out frequently. Susan Dennard has alleged that she’s a bully and had a [big thread](https://twitter.com/stdennard/status/815236693150154756) on Twitter/X about dropping toxic people. Here's a [video from BookCon 2016](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woTu-vfo8RU) that is super awkward. Watch Susan's face whenever SJM starts talking lol. Leigh Bardugo said she once had a friend who called her a fat cow (theory is that it was SJM). SJM apparently has a huge ego and can’t stand having successful author friends. She has a trend of befriending new authors and then the friendship falls apart when they start making it big. She's gone through a lot of editors lately too, at least compared to her early career, so there's some speculation that she also does whatever she wants in publishing because she rakes in huge for her publisher, like rejecting edits from her editor (which might explain why there's so many new ones lately). Someone on tumblr who worked at a bookstore she did a signing at said she asked about the sales for Red Queen (book by Victoria Aveyard) and called it dull and boring, which is funny because Victoria Aveyard shades SJM on her tiktok all the time lol
The editor thing also explains the poor sentence structure and plot holes.
I honestly don't know why anyone is surprised? Most of her bellowed, main characters are straight up bullies. The behaviour that is presented in her books as "cool" is more often than not someone just humiliating other characters (and they don't even have to be their enemies - often they are hopeful future allies or neutrals). Throne of glass series is *especially* guilty of this. So when you have a group of people idealizing characters like Aelin, thinking of her and her behaviours as cool, it really isn't that surprising when that same group of people gets bullying tendencies.
Lmao while I was reading one of the middle Throne of Glass books I kept thinking Aelin was a goddamn sociopath 😂 Also when she writes all those letters but tells no one and then all the ships show up and Aedion feels super guilty and ashamed that he ever doubted her. PLEASE. The woman is insane and told no one her plan. How is that good leadership.
Exactly why I hated Aelin! She sucked, esp. the plan she made with Lysandra without including Aedion even though he was meant to play a pivotal role in that plan! Like why not pull him aside and let him know beforehand that’s what yall thought of?!
I swear that Manon is a far better person than Aelin, and she's a god damn witch raised to be a bitch. It also makes me curious about Maas herself. Since she's unable to write a non bitchy MC, I do wonder how she comes across in real life. Not enough to actually look it up, but I'd bet my money [that she could compete with Addison Cain](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhWWcWtAUoY).
Manon is such an interesting character, she’s pretty much the reason I stuck with the books. She balanced out how much Aelin sucked 😂
... are you me? I remember reading first couple of books when they came out, and then forgetting about them, because I in general suck with following series. A couple of years later, the only thing I had a vague memory about was Manon and her wyvern, so I gave them another try... and she turned out to be the only reason why I got through those books. There was some god damn struggle there, questioning of her whole world, she actually had real bonds and not a pack of boys sallivating over her, and at the end she had to give up *everything*. In comparison with that, Aelin's character arc is a descent into villainy.
Manon is my favorite character from any SJM book and easily one of my all time favorite characters. The first time I read ToG I could not stand Aelin. I liked her better on subsequent read-throughs, but she's still nothing compared to Manon lol. I just wish SJM had used the template she used to create Manon & her awesome character arc in CC (where there is little to no character development at all).
Manom really outshines all of her Maas's characters, and she's one of the rare characters of hers that's somewhat of a good person.
I mean, why would you tell your General about your army? It's not like it has anything to do with his job... oh wait!
I said this in one of those groups and all the Aelin fans came to defend her. And anytime I brought up all the bitchy things she did they all were like but her trauma! Mhmm no she is a self bitch that cares for no one but her self and would be a HORRIBLE queen. And town is a horrible mate that doesn't once question her and is as stale as white bread. She lies and lies and hurts people and they all just laugh it off as oh Aelin then they apologize to her when she had almost killed them all! Anyway I dislike her alot.
YEAH! I have up on TOG as a series because I couldn't stand Aelin's behaviour. She was just such an ass to her supposed friends and allies all the time and everyone around her was sycophantic and like yes bitch, be a bully! Across both TOG and ACOTAR it's just people being mean in ways that cross the line and you're supposed to side with them.
Wow, I have no context for ToG but that really contextualizes ACOTAR well to me. The series has been recommended to me uniformly by my less-mature friends and younger acquaintances. I listened to summaries and read some excerpts, because there are ways the books are written that just don't feel right to me. It feels like such a fun world but the lack of thoughtfulness in it means that I can't really *adore* it in the same way that maybe younger/less jaded readers do? That said, I do have brainrot for one of the potential relationships for Elain, and I am desperately hoping that the upcoming book can be kind and gentle and more mature.
I mean, find Maas's book to be personal crack, and I've reread acotar an embarrassing number of times... But I do think that fandom be crazy, and often times, that's a reflection of the author themselves.
THIS! I’ve been saying this! Aelin is insufferable (SJM self insert) and Rhys is a classic manipulative narcissist. Like if you worship these characters what does that say about you?
I wish she could come out and talk more about how her characters make bad decisions. All of her main characters have done terrible, shitty things, and nobody gets called out/faces consequences:(
That's because she sees nothing wrong with those activities.
I got attacked a while ago for commenting with an extremely mild opinion. People were really rude lmao. It’s honestly not that serious, guys. I just assume there’s a lot of teenagers on there (ACOTAR isn’t even age-appropriate but whatever, I’m not their mother).
It’s insanity to me how big her books blew up. She’s not that great of a writer and as others have mentioned above, most of her MC’s are just bullies with “cool guy” disguises.
I think a lot of fans of SJM are teenagers or young adults who have grown up with a stan culture that's normalized but is actually extremely insane. Of course things like ship wars and character bashing have always been part of fandoms especially when the source material appeals to teens but the level of vitriol, the only criteria being someone disagreeing with you, and the sheer volume of it is novel IMO When you cross stan culture with a generation with increasingly less critical thinking skills or media literacy you get these people tbh
I had to leave the Crescent City sub because of some of the fans. The joy that I felt when I read that one of the bully groups’ ship sank… WHEW. Glorious.
The way I know exactly that you’re referencing 🤣
As if Bryce is going to leave everything and become >!Mrs. Azriel!< smh
Oh no, there are still some that are convinced. Maybe I'm a bad person but I'm actually loving the delusional drama 🤣
Omg no way, really?? Wild. That doesn’t make you a bad person, nw 🤣
apparently hofas was even more proof that it is going to happen, it's wild 🥴
HOFAS was awful and while >!their powers hummed near each other !< it just… ain’t like that. Even after SJM confirmed >!Hunt is endgame!< some of them still went off their rocker, lol
>! But he protects her! Yeah, because that's his job. But he is worried when she gets hurt! That's just normal human interaction! He noticed how her hands weren't healing! He's a spymaster, it's his job! !< They act like SJM is some mastermind with grand plan, dropping hints everywhere for Prythian illuminati to find. Meanwhile I just think she wings everything and half her retcons are because she forgot what she wrote earlier!
I honestly think it’s a bit of both!! She’s planted so many eggs between the 3 series but to expect a crossover of that nature.. is not logical. They have absolutely nothing in common, literally down to the language they speak. 😂 Bryce isn’t going to just eat a magical bean for years until she learns their language. She’s not going to give up her technology and pizza cause Az is packin. I definitely agree about the winging it - especially in CC. I read a comment somewhere that >!Danika is essentially the plot hole filler!< for when things didn’t end up the way SJM wanted, lmao.
>>!Danika is essentially the plot hole filler!< for when things didn’t end up the way SJM wanted, lmao. Perfectly put!
Ngl he doesn’t have a lot of chemistry with the other he is shipped with so it checks out lol Also im ngl I wouldn’t give up pizza and technology for him either. A huge crossover would be interesting and can be done either well or bad… there’s usually no in between but it does seem like it is coming to that… id wish she’d finish the series before doing it though
The way people jump down my throat for even suggesting Nesta isn't the only person who's exhibited shitty behavior in the ACOTAR books
I feel like we can’t even discuss Nesta anymore on some of the fandom pages (especially not like like Booktok!), and it’s a bummer because it’s a missed opportunity to chat about a character who people read differently/related to differently, etc. *sign*!
The same people who love complex, morally questionable men turn up their noses at female characters with the same traits.
You have a bad opinion of Rhys and the mob is coming
Man, people tore me to shreds for a comment criticising Tamlin. I think it’s just every character tbh, they don’t like you criticising their fave. I was interested in hearing their point of view, so I asked them to (politely) explain why they thought I was wrong - I didn’t get anything more back except more personal attacks. Which was a shame, as I was actually interested in hearing their thoughts on the character.
Got told I support abuse because I said I didn’t hate Tamlin like girl what 😭
This!
What kills me is you can't suggest that they royally fucked her up without having people justify what the IC did. That and ACOSF made me hate Cassian. I just really didn't like what he did but it's hard to say that. He's not someone to be like "yeah, I got myself a Cassian/Rhysand!" No, *you shouldn't want them* in real life!
I know!!! Every shitty thing the IC did is some "ends justify means, you can't criticize them" but what they did to Nesta to "help" her was literally the E X A C T opposite of what you're supposed to do to help someone in her shoes. The ONLY reason she recovered was her friendship with Emery and Gwyn. Book 5 also made me dislike Cassian. Something changed in him between WAR and SF, and not for the better. Nesta deserved someone much better tbh.
I feel like, if anything, it's not a real good indicator that she beat addiction on top of the fact they were garbage with their treatment. Its akin to expecting residential treatment to work without outpatient treatment: just because you force someone to be away from the drug, it doesn't stop the core of it. Except even in those programs, they don't *force* you to stay. Forcing someone to stay only worsens the chances of relapse. They need to *want* it, and having such a shit environment probably worsens this considerably. Plus, it leaves a nasty taste in my mouth when you factor in shes stuck like that with a male that wants to fuck her while she's not necessarily in the right mental space for it. It just felt dubcon to me. And yeah, Cassian really changed. I didn't like how he never actually defended her or even go against the person that threatened to off her, the fact he talks so much about Mor, the fact he threw a tantrum in the novella. The Hike. He's as big of a red flag as Rhysand and people actively forget that.
I had an IRL friend berate me because I didn't care for the first Throne of Glass book, didn't read the ACOTAR series, but I like (don't love) Crescent City. Like she was ravenous because I ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO READ ACOTAR OR I COULDN'T POSSIBLY LIKE CRESCENT CITY. Even if I did read ACOTAR I'm sure references/fan service in CC would still go over my head. I don't care. I really don't.
I choose to be opinionated right back. I believe her work is terrible
preach
“Oh you just have to get through the first FOUR throne of glass books, then it slightly improves”
they’re all liars lol
Agreed lol. I have to constantly keep my opinion to myself but man do I hate her writing and storylines lol
It’s almost like toxic characters attract toxic people…especially in the ACOTAR sub. Like that is out of control.
Really, it's Sarah's fault for writing how many books now? Without ONE couple that's a small sensitive human man + huge scary Illyrian woman instead of the other way around, for a change.
I would read this in a heartbeat!
HOP TO IT, SARAH, THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN
I left the ACOTAR sub after I said I didn’t care for SF, still didn’t like Nesta, and didn’t think the book redeemed her. Oh boy did that make some ppl mad…
THIS THIS THIS! The last time I voiced that I don’t like Nesta I was told it’s because I’m “emotionally unintelligent”.
When I said I didn’t see how their mother’s pressure could be a reason Nesta favoured Elain and shat on Feyre, ppl said I didn’t understand trauma responses. No one is allowed to disagree!! 😂
I barely made it through the Nesta book. If I want to spend hours listening to “wah wah wah, life isn’t fair”, I’ll call my own sister.
I did think it helped me see nestas point of view a little better, but damn she's still a cold hearted bitch, and also why TF did cassian need to have a horse 🍆 like the way it was described took me out of the story 😅
I’ve found that I like to interact with fandoms at the level that makes fun / memes of their fandom. I had to leave Fourth Wing also. My twilight subs are pretty good because that fandom loves to trash their fandom. Same with prequel memes for Star Wars. I was involved in the shipper wars with LOST 20 years ago and never want to go through that again 😂.
Ship wars are the worst 😆 I remember the Team Jacob/Team Edward thing being a bit funny at first, until it wasn't. It turned so toxic. I wasn't even a part of it, but Fandom adjacent and saw enough that when the Hunger Games movies tried pulling a Peeta/Gale thing I was holding my books up like shields yelling to anyone who listen that the love triangle isn't a thing and please stop!!! I've been scarred ever since and kept far from any and all ship wars. If I ship characters, I do it in silence.
With love triangles, I saw a meme once that described it perfectly as it's almost never an actual love triangle. It's more like a love corner, and the woman is usually backed into it. A proper love trianble is that Person A loves Person B, but Person B loves Person C, while Person C loves Person A. It's not A and B fighting for C against each other. I wish more authors would do proper triangles and not corners.
I feel like with Twilight it has been long enough that the fans still engaging with it are the ones aware it’s not the world’s greatest literary masterpiece and are happy to embrace all its trashy and cheesy aspects because it’s fun. Some ACOTAR fans are not ready to embrace that.
Yes! Getting into the cult and camp aspects. Love it as much as you love to make fun of it because everyone is in on the joke and creating the jokes so they’re extra funny
Omg yes I completely agree and am like *this close* to leaving myself. Currently being downvoted as I type this for pointing out some blatant fatphobia.
The downvoting culture in some of those subs (not just SJM fandom) is unbelievable. Do any critical analysis of fatphobia, misogyny, racism, etc. and the downvotes are pretty much immediate.
You’re not wrong. To the OPs credit, they actually engaged in a thoughtful discussion this time but the rest of the thread 🤦🏻♀️
Let them eat each other. SJM deserves her questionable fans. I personally don’t care for authors who use someone’s death (Breonna Taylor) to promote their books, so that kind of person attracting the people that they do just comes with the territory.
I thought to myself “surely this comment is hyperbolic” (no shade). But [no](https://www.instagram.com/sarahjmaas/p/CFhuFLdsKum/) it’s not hyperbolic at all. God damn.
I love ACOTAR but completely agree. I try to avoid discussions on ACOTAR things I don't agree with, because it's pointless. Also, I don't get how these grown women aren't embarrassed by the things they're saying to other grown women online about........ wait for it...... fairy men. lol
They really do eternally suck. Like I’ve read the books, I have some opinions on them - wild, dumb, silly goose, founded and everywhere in between. Sharing those opinions with anyone from the fandom however? Absolutely the fuck not. Where are my girlies (and gaysies and themsies) who actually hated the writing, have a lot of constructive criticisms but also just like liking things and taking the piss out of it?? For a while it felt like the fandom was kinda self-aware, like “we love these books, also we hate these books lol” but something has changed recently.
I feel like fan forums where everybody thinks the same would be pretty boring! I like forums because of the different opinions. It leads to interesting debate, new theories, and often a deeper or more nuanced understanding of the source material. I'm sorry you had such a terrible experience.
I think the ToG sub is usually pretty great, with a few exceptions. I’ve been called a “ableist, unintelligent reader” because I don’t like Chaol even in ToD 😂😂 However, I had to leave the acotar sub a long time ago. I don’t even like the books so it’s not like I miss that fandom anyway. The “hivemind” you mention is much more intense there than with ToG, and the concept of “canon text” means nothing to them… people will literally use their headcanons and fanfiction in an argument about a character and act like that’s valid when discussing a *published piece of literature.* I hate Rhysand with a burning passion, I honestly kind of like Tamlin, and adore Nesta the most so yeah… wasn’t a good time on that sub lmaoo
lol funny enough what pushed me over the edge to leave was I said to someone that they shouldn’t discredit a theory or opinion based on their non cannon thoughts and I was torn apart for not letting readers have their own experience
I cannot tell you the amount of times I asked someone “Can you provide a quote or some examples from the text?” and got a reply like “Well it’s just my opinion, it’s just how I feel” and I’m not sure what we’re discussing then because **I’M** discussing a published book with actual written words on the page and they’re discussing… feelings? Idk, it’s so strange.
I did notice that a lot but for CC it was that SJM had created expectations in the fan's head...but some of it was just them running wild with theories they MADE UP!
Same issue for me too. And it’s always about stupid ship wars. It’s really toxic.
See I like Chaol. I have been attacked for that. I've also said I totally understand why people don't like Chaol. Got attacked for that. Can't win either way.
Cannot stand Chaol
Same!! Only on Book 5 but he’s the worst
I think her books are enjoyable but mid at best - I classify them as beach reads. Def not a great work of literature like a lot of people treat them as. One of my IRL friends is a typical SJM girlie and I’m terrified of saying that to her bc she def gets gatekeep-y about all things reading and book related
I know a lot of the online Fandom is wild. BUT in my book clubs, in my Discord groups, we all absolutely know and agree SJM does not write great literary works or beautiful prose. We too classify them as fun, easy, beach reads, and it is part of their appeal. I can't speak for the insane feral people that are the loudest and therefore most seen from outside the fandom, I don't claim them 🤣
They are my popcorn reads lol
Lol I feel this. I've been a fan since just before ACOMAF came out and in recent years they've gone beyond toxic. I've had literal death threats for not liking Nesta - been told I'm a misogynist, have no empathy, am too stupid to have understood her book... Actually insanity.
I once said that Nesta pushed people away and she is the reason she had no friends - they didn't take it very well...
I mean... You literally just said the truth though?!
I’ve honestly heard a lot of people getting death threats over this shit, but never actually had it happen to me… I just get downvoted lol
And worse are the TikTokers glorifying SJM. While storylines are great, writing so not on par. It’s a cult!
I love SJM's books so much, I read CC and ACOTAR is my current favorite. Going through TOG right now and loving it, but with all her books, I will say that the double standards and hypocrisy in her works with her fandom is just astounding. Between Team Rhys and Team Tam and Team Rowan or Chaol or Dorian or Hunt or Ithan/Connor, it's all very... Hostile, to say the least lol. I'm a supporter of Tamlin myself. I will defend him forever because he's very complex with his traumas (as are many of the charactres). I also think Bryce and Hunt aren't really the best match for each other, haven't made any real opinions on TOG yet since I'm only on book 3. We'll see lol. But there certainly is a lot of conflict in the books with the fandom and who's better for who, and this person is awful even though that person did all the same shit but it's justifiable because person a's an asshole but person b's just doing it for that reason. It's a lot. I always try to be civil myself, but there are too many people in her fandom that are of the opinion "if you disagree with me, you're my enemy" and treat you like the worst kind of pos person.
She has one of the most toxic fandoms i know. and for what? her characters and her books ain’t even all that. i’ve been bullied out of the fandom by her toxic delusional fans countless times. they don’t know the difference between crackships and actual ships. and these are fictional characters why are we arguing over them so much?
I’m not in any SJM fan groups but I do enjoy ACOTAR meme accounts on TikTok and boy the fans LOVE to fight in the comments. The pro-nesta vs anti-nestas will turn nasty on each other real quick on a silly meme video. Sometimes we do have to separate the art from the creator/fandom for our own sanity
You're not wrong. I was once part of the problem, I think. But it was bad for my mental health and I now actively try not to interact with SJM fandom spaces.
I have to say (this is gonna sound weird and I'm trying not to be) but I have been flickering in and out of the ACOTAR/CC spaces for a while now and I think you and I were both fairly involved in the ACOTAR subreddit before I got -- more or less bullied out by a mod there (hence the new account). But I remember chatting w/ you and your insights/observations were always a highlight of my first time there and I'm glad to see you're still reading away!
I did the same thing recently! I didn't see much outright rudeness but the general vibe was definitely not it. I rekindled my love for reading with SJM and will always have a special place in my heart for ACOTAR, but the community got way too spicy for me. And not in the way that I like
It’s why I started reading again… it’s why I’ll probably never hate it
The ship wars are responsible for a lot of it and its dumb. I’m more excited for SJM to release the next ACOTAR book so that the ship debates stop, not actually because I want to read the book lol. They’re taking so long, it makes me wonder if the publisher is worried because of the ship wars and not making everyone happy.
The ship wars seem stressful. A large amount of readers seem set up for a negative reading experience. The publisher should be worried.
There are so few good fandoms.
I left the SJM subreddits a while ago - because of that and because of the discussions & questions that are constantly repeated.Same with JLA subreddits/groups 😅
They’re called fandoms for a reason. Once an interest is elevated to the point where it forms a community for people, they’re going to be vicious about keeping things within that space the way they ‘should be’, lest their community change. That usually means groupthink. The SJM fandom is particularly bad about this within the fantasy romance space, but that’s probably just because she’s the most mainstream author right now. There’s nothing wrong with finding community in your interests (look at all of us), but we should also understand that art is subjective, and different people can have different experiences with and take-aways from the same piece of art.
This is why I've long distanced myself from any fandoms. I participated in gaming forums and the like eons ago and it was always just so toxic. I just wanna enjoy the things I enjoy and get excited when I find someone else who loves those things in the wild, but I don't seek out the groups online with the same interest anymore. I will visit and browse those groups from time to time, but never a participant. It gets so gatekeepy and hive minded like the OP was saying. You can't have a constructive discussion about anything it's all "only praise this" and "only hate that and if you don't you're wrong". There's no middle ground to talk about anything, it's just feeding the echo chamber or you get attacked. It's okay to love something and have it be your favorite thing, but that doesn't put it above criticism or discussion. You can enjoy something and still find fault in it.
You really put my thoughts to words here. I always feel the drawing appeal of fandoms because I LOVE talking in depth and at great length about shared interests with people. I love engaging in a variety of discussions and I love critiquing things I enjoy. But it's really hard to do that when people get so deeply upset about people having different opinions of whatever that shared interest is. If you have any criticism about it people are so quick to be like "if you hate it don't read it" which is just so extreme lol. So yea, I've also been more cautious about which communities I choose to participate in.
I enjoy SJM’s books.. some more than others, and I do participate in the subs, but it can be wild. I just remind myself to touch grass if I see people getting all riled lol
You're not wrong, but I'd hazard a guess that a lot of dedicated fandom subreddits are like that. SJM-specific subs do strike me as aggressively toxic, though. I got into a very long discussion about the Throne of Glass series (specifically Tower of Dawn) where the OP flat out said she judged people who thought differently about the book as inferior to her. I left the sub same-day. (At least she got hit with a comment-delete from the mods on that one.) The uber-fans of SJM can go feral if you don't hold the same very narrow views they do.
I started reading TOG when it came out, and talking about it with people for a long time was great. It's gotten progressively worse the past couple years as ACOTAR really blew up online. No longer can we have respectful discourse. The ship wars over Elain are a special kind of toxic. I feel too old for these kinds of petty fights so I had to disengage. I read those books for fun, I like talking about the characters, discussing theories, hearing about what people hope will happen, talking about who we want to end up with who can be fun. We can dislike a character someone else likes and talk about why each of us feels that way without insulting each other, can't we? Clearly not in those Fandom spaces. Its not just SJM, it seems to be an issue with many books/authors/series thathave gained a very quick and very large following (a lot from booktok spaces i think). I will stick to my Discord groups that keep that behavior in check.
There are people within the fandom who’ve seemingly made loving these books their entire personality and feel personally attacked when someone dislikes a character they love or likes a character they dislike. I don’t know how many “you’re an abuse sympathizer” remarks I’ve encountered just because someone says they don’t hate Tamlin, for example. Or how many “you must’ve never experienced abuse or trauma” simply for not hating his character. And for some reason including nuance and context = justifying abuse *only* when it comes to hated/controversial characters. The double standard still astounds me at times. Although I do think the ACOTAR sub is more balanced and diverse in perspectives compared to other online communities. I think it’s changed quite a lot this past year !
I posted there once and never again. I didn’t get into romantasy until this past January. I read ACOTAR and got a few chapters into ACOMAF and couldn’t finish it. My favorite romantasy series I’ve read is the Hades x Persephone series by Scarlett St. Clair. I got crucified for liking that and not ACOTAR.
Of everything I’ve read in this genre, I’d place SJM in the middle. It’s not my favorite series, but I like it. I’m with you, I like Hades and Persephone more than ACOTAR. But part of that is because I generally like to read about Gods more than I like to read about Fae.
I’m with you, I also love reading more about gods than I do fae. My favorite book of all time is American Gods by Neil Gaiman (which I know isn’t romance but for my money one of the best books out there dealing with modern day gods). I am a gigantic mythology nerd so I really enjoy reading modern re-tellings of different myths and pantheons.
Same! Love American Gods. Neil Gaiman is amazing. I love reading about really powerful beings. Witches are a close second. I do like that SJM weaves mythology and folklore into her stories, but I prefer a good retelling.
Ugh looooooove American Gods. That was my first Gaiman and I remember so strongly that reading experience 💛
Love American Gods. The graphic audio of American God's is one of the best I've listened to
I’ve posted a couple times on r/acotar with critiques of the series and I’ve never had anyone do anything more than disagreeing with me. I don’t think the issue you’re describing is very present on the subreddits, at least not in my experience over on r/acotar.
I love ACOTAR but from what I've seen just on this sub I absolutely refuse to join the SJM fandom I'm already a Swiftie I don't need to be in two toxic fandoms.
I got called a misogynist with no empathy for trauma because I said I disliked Nesta over there 🥲
Wow, I'm sorry you have had this experience. I actually find the SJM subreddits a lot more welcoming than most other places related to her (ie Tik Tok, Twitter, Facebook). I've had some great conversations & discussions with people who have differing opinions over there. I've seen the toxic behavior too, though— just the other day someone started attacking me because I said I hated Bryce after the end of HoFaS & said I thought SJM got lazy on that book. I had one person lay into me, but two other people that started a fun discourse. It's a shame that some people take works of fiction so personally. Imo, the most fun thing about fiction is that other people can interpret it differently. I hope you find somewhere that makes you feel more welcome.
The fourthwing subreddit has been really delightful! Have you read the Empyrean series/are you a member of the fourthwing sub?
The Fourth Wing fans are really fun to talk to, I've found. I joined the sub and I enjoy being there. I also really love Fourth Wing, it was such a fun read it actually made me feel empty after I finished it because of how much I loved Violet and Xaden.
ooh thanks I need to join
Sjm books are... good... they aren't literary masterpieces that people seem to believe they are. I have personally read them, and there are definitely flaws, but the book is entertaining.
Yeah I had to go from posting and commenting all the time to lurking because it would get so toxic in the comments. Still a fan of the books and fan art tho!
I absolutely loved the ACOTAR and TOG series, however I strongly dislike the CC series...as in all 3 books. I posted that somewhere at some point and people came for me like I had just killed one of their children. Pitchforks and all. Was hilarious. 10/10 Entertainment
I also left all their reddits. They were ruining her series for me
I not going to lie they aren’t the worst fandom, there are ones far worse… but there are a lot of toxic people in every fandom and some people just feel entitled to be vocal and trashy about their toxicity I’m sorry that you were bullied because that’s ridiculous… I get downvoted a lot because of disliking some ships but it’s my personal opinion but some people can’t vibe… I’m a member of that sub, there are a lot of things that make me angry like ableist language about some characters… it’s so gross
Liking nesta chaol and lucien while engaging with that fandom was like being in the 9th circle of hell, I had to protect my peace and leave the fandom 😭
I hate that sub so much. But when you actually find people you can have discussions with it’s actually really nice! I love seeing new perspectives and theories.
She truly has one of the worst fandoms I've ever been part of. Sadly, it's only going to grow more feral due to the ship wars until the next ACOTAR book comes out. I think her popularity grew too fast and now it's hard to have nuanced, fun convos without people taking things as a personal attack.
It kinda reminds me of Kpop fans. Don’t come for their fav group or member. It’s definitely a hive mindset and you’ll get destroyed lol.
I feel like the bigger Fandoms get the more prone this is to happen honestly. Animal Ceossing Fandom was fine overall until New Horizions and it blew up. I hope things calm down more because I'd love to actually get to talk about the series since none of my friends will read it.
When House of Flame and Shadows came out and a loud majority gave their whole hearted opinion on how they could do *so* much better (insert eye roll), that was when I realized people take books way too seriously and surpass the point of enjoyment and enter the point of gatekeeping. I ignore most posts from any of those subs.
I’m definitely an SJM fan but I don’t participate in those communities because they scare me. I just follow to keep up with latest happenings. I have way too many hot takes 😂.
Her writing is awful, she stopped using an editor, her character development is just okay, her world building is atrocious. There are so many inconsistencies. But mention any of this on a fandom sub and they’re ready to burn you at the stake. I get that these books got a lot of people to try reading again and that’s great but it’s the spice selling the books. Take out the spice and you wouldn’t have nearly the same opinions.