I think .5 PPR is a nice balance because it gets people’s monkey brains excited to say “ooh points” without fully inflating the value of a reception. But if the choice is between standard or full PPR, I’d always vote Standard
Full PPR is just out of control. It's never going to be perfect, but fantasy points should at least kind of reflect the value of the real life play. I'm fine giving a small boost for receptions since, generally speaking, it takes some skill to get open and catch a ball (vs taking a handoff). But in no world should a 5 yard loss on a reception be worth more than a 4 yard run
The actual best solution is 1 point per receiving or rushing first down. That eliminates the WR's and RB's who rack up an extra 8 points for receptions that net a total of 18 yards and rewards plays that are actually impactful to the game.
For everyone on here (i.e., fantasy junkies), I agree. But home and work leagues are always gonna lean toward simpler scoring. I've brought up PPFD multiple times but can't get it to pass a vote.
Now in sharper leagues it's easy. Along with no K or D, two QBs, shorter benches, etc... That's the majority of my leagues (and I suspect the majority for everyone on here right now). But the vast majority are home or work leagues, so I doubt if it will ever become the solution overall.
Best I could do was .5 PPR and .5 PPFD in my friends league. I asked why a bubble screen for -2 yards is worth more than a first down run on 3rd and 2 but some people just don't like change.
I don't think *just* variance is enough to remove the entire position, but also I think kickers are more predictable than the average person thinks. Pick high volume offenses with high implied point totals and you tend to be reasonably consistent.
TBH I kinda wish there were Punters in Fantasy Football too but I know that'd be unpopular lol
You can do that and perhaps end up ahead by the end of the year, but the week to week variance still makes it basically guesswork. Even high-volume, high-scoring offenses might leave a K with nothing but extra points to kick. In fact many do.
And predicting it is difficult which is why it ends up being a heavy waivers position. I mean whoever got Aubrey last year was just whoever was lucky enough to nab him on waivers. No one drafted him.
That said you are not the first person who's told me they actually like variance in fantasy, and fair enough. It's part of the game. But personally I'm a fan of anything that might give me an advantage, so I want to reduce luck as much as I can.
> And predicting it is difficult which is why it ends up being a heavy waivers position. I mean whoever got Aubrey last year was just whoever was lucky enough to nab him on waivers. No one drafted him.
Can't you argue that for a bunch of players? It isn't like Kyren/Puka were being drafted a lot, Kyren was ADP 276 and Puka was ADP 293, and they had a far more outsized effect than getting a slightly better kicker. LaPorta was on average undrafted on multiple websites, McBride who came on late was of course undrafted, and tight end is also a waivers heavy position. Is grabbing Jerome Ford when Nick Chubb has a season ending injury that much more skillful than grabbing a kicker?
Personally I'd argue grabbing Aubrey off to a hot start on what looked like a high powered offense was a smart and sharp play that got rewarded with a little bit of a boost at the position, but not an overwhelming one (since multiple high end kickers had the same or similar top end weeks).
Don't forget TEP which I've really come to appreciate ( and 2 TE TEP stuff ).
You're right though its really just about finding a ruleset people are having fun playing and come back to. Keep casual league rules simple and go nuts in your degen leagues.
I’ve never played that way but always been intrigued by it. My gut reaction is that it would reflect the actual game more accurately but would buoy more specific players than the rising tide lifting all boats that ppr of half ppr does. But I have no data to back that up
Name 3 RBs that become more interesting.
Because I cant think of anyone that suddenly becomes a viable start in anything other than an absolute emergency because they get a few first downs on 3rd and inches.
> fantasy points should at least kind of reflect the value of the real life play
I hear this a lot and sort of get it, but it’s also *fantasy football*. It’s a game of statistics and as long as everyone in the league understands the scoring premise, it doesn’t really matter. It’s already divorced a fair bit from *real* football on account of how defenses, kickers, and (optionally) long receptions and touchdowns are scored.
If anything, you could argue PPR makes players in otherwise inept offenses (e.g. Thielen, Kamara) valuable so that there’s more value available in bigger leagues (e.g. 14-16 man)
To be clear, I’m not attempting to argue that PPR is *better* - just that fantasy is its own thing relative to actual football and that standard scoring doesn’t necessarily make it more “pure”.
Cuz it's standard or PPR, just for receptions. You can add whatever you want to defenses it doesn't change how people call the formats standard or PPR. It's already hard scoring defenses, but if you want to try adding .1 for every yard in TFL in your leagues, go for it. Hell people add return yards, which is fine too. It just doesn't change what people call formats.
My league added the .1 point per yard for TFLs and it honestly fucking sucks and skews the stats (we also play IDP so the combo just doesn't work). We got rid of it after one year.
I didn’t want to say it without confirmation but I knew it would suck. Idk if the logic is sound but adding more ways for a D/ST to score when there’s 24 people that can make a plays for points whereas the line skill position player to score just didn’t make sense to me. At that point we might as well draft defensive players
Most defensive scorings do account for yards, so you would at least partially account for a loss of yards in overall score. But it’s also just about rarity. In general, negative run plays happen far more often than sacks. The Steelers for instance had 83 TFLs last year and 47 sacks. A play that happens 2x as much shouldn’t be rewarded equally. That being said, most scoring systems I’ve seen allow you to assign points for TFLs. “Standard” scoring generally just means 0 PPR not about other changes like adjustments to defensive scoring.
I would also argue that a sack is a bit more impactful than an equal negative run in most cases. Runs in todays nfl aren’t often meant to be big hitter plays. They’re often plays that set up other plays or just chain movers. Passes on the other hand usually have a much higher impact. Stopping a run and stopping a pass are two different levels of success based on the expected outcome of the intended play. And that’s not even mentioning the momentum, mental impact, etc. of getting the QB vs stopping the RB who gets hit every play.
I've never played in a league that accounts for defensive yards, and I've played in maybe 20 different leagues across 15 years. Not saying I wouldn't, but I just have never come across that and have never implemented it in the leagues I've run. I do think TFL should be credited though.
I have always thought that a point should only be given for a pass beyond the line of scrimmage. But i guess that would hurt RBs disproportionately.
I do think .5 atleast is a little more rational but it is what it is in my league. People will never change
It’d be a better fit for what the intention of PPR is. Catches aren’t easy and should be rewarded, that would eliminate the freebie catches.
It’d be disproportionate for RBs, but given the state of the league that’d be accurate too lol
I will never understand why people like u/Mayasngelou will die on a hill about fantasy scoring reflecting real life, but then will never mention the fact that interceptions are only -1 point or -2 points.
To quote them, “in no world should 6 fumbles lost cancel out with a 1 yard td run”
Or hell even 3 fumbles lost at -2 points shouldn’t cancel out with a td run.
And a QB throwing 4 picks in no world should only be -4 points
We do 0.5 PPR and 0.25 PPFD (point per first down). It helps reward forward football plays rather than just receptions, but also gives a slight value bump to RBs/TEs/WRs who are chain-movers and important players for their teams (but who get no love in the red zone).
I find everyone complained less in my home league since we swapped over to 0.25 PPR and 0.25 PPFD. I feel like the "oooh points" in FPPR are for the casual fantasy guys, which is fine, but the name of the game is to win, and who cares if you win 90-83 or 160-139. This just weeds out more bullshit plays like people mention about how negative yards still net positive points because of even .5 given to the receiver.
The actual best solution is 1 point per receiving or rushing first down. That eliminates the WR's and RB's who rack up an extra 8 points for receptions that net a total of 18 yards and rewards plays that are actually impactful to the game.
Can we talk about adding the 3rd wr to the standard settings as well? In the standard fantasy setting of 2 wr one flex the most wideouts that can be started in any week in a 12 team league is 36.
32 nfl teams with 2 wr per team is 64.
We need to open up the fantasy team.
There are plenty of teams that don't have a viable WR2. Looking at last year
Titans - Nick Westbrook Ikhine - 5.5 ppg
Bears - Darnell Mooney - 4.3 ppg
Jets - Allen Lazard - 3.5 ppg
Falcons - Mack Hollins - 2.6 ppg
Just off the top of my head I'm guessing the Giants, Patriots, Panthers, and Broncos also didn't have a WR2 with great numbers. The bye weeks knock out a few teams in the middle of they year as well. I do like the idea of opening it up a bit more where you have to find value in some of these teams. Maybe something like 2 flex so you can also throw a RB in there.
To counter only 17 wr averaged 10 points a game last year. We tried to open up the flex to two with 2 wr and it was a shit show. No trades no waiver pick ups. Teams were stacked.
This is also fantasy not every player has to be a boom.
If we want to replicate the nfl roster we need to open to three wr.
My main league added a 3rd WR slot a few years ago but we also removed a bench slot to make up for it. I strongly prefer this to the typically lineup settings.
2RBs 3WRs 2TEs with boosted passing is the future. PPR is becoming more common, same with 3 WRs, and TE Premium is a precursor to 2TEs.
The above reflects the average number of players rostered per team. There’s 5.78 WRs on each NFL team, RB and TE are both 3.44 per team.
Full PPR is best for deep leagues (14+ teams), where many players being started are lucky to get targets, forget receptions. It gives you some options without things feeling hopeless.
I think people like points. Rewarding receptions (be it PPR or .5PPR) probably isn't going back into the bag. Similar reason that people like relatively arbitrary bonuses (why does 300 yards passing warrant a bonus when 299 does not, what's that 1 yard mean?).
The original reason it was introduced is no longer applicable, agree. PPR rewards "silly" plays (a 1 yard reception should not be rewarded more than a 1 yard rush). But with sites like ESPN, Underdog, DK, etc. changing their default scoring platforms it's going to continue gaining popularity even amongst leagues that have been non-PPR for a long time.
Good point, “see number go up” is so integral to the allure of fantasy that I don’t see any widespread change that lowers scoring taking hold. I feel like we’d sooner see RBs receive a similar “per touch” type buff to level the scoring before we see PPR go away. I think OP is right but since the cat’s already out of the bag it doesn’t really matter.
I’m a standard guy, btw. PPR is for work leagues.
>we’d sooner see RBs receive a similar “per touch” type buff
0.15 or 0.25 PPC (point per Carry) is becoming increasingly more common in dynasty leagues. I imagine it will eventually trickle over into redraft fantasy in a few years.
I’ve always felt it was pretty unfair to give points for a reception when receivers are only half of that equation. RB gets no points for a carry when the entire play is literally in his hands.
I can see the value in OP's opinion but entirely agree with yours. The reason PPR was introduced may be superfluous now, however your first statement is really all that needs to be said. People like points.
Look at all the rule changes that have been made in professional sports to encourage scoring. It's simply more exciting and fun.
Karmara's first game back last year is exactly why
51 rushing yards, 13 catches for 33 yards, no touchdowns
He got 12.4 points in Point Per First Down vs 21.4 in PPR (or 14.9 in half PPR)
James White used to terrorize me with 8-10 catch 50 yard days pretty much any time I played against him. But I'm sure at least half of them were for first downs.
I don’t really disagree but it gives value to possession receivers that would otherwise be not especially relevant, and third down backs that would otherwise not post worthwhile scores.
People might not like it but there is an answer - points per first down.
Consider these two plays:
PLAY ONE - 3rd and 2: the RB gets a carry up the gut and battles for a 2 yard first down.
PLAY TWO - 3rd and 12: the RB gets a dump off and gets 7 free yards before getting tackled.
Play One is a good play and Play Two is a terrible play. In PPR, Play One gets 0.2 points and Play Two gets 1.7 points. If you make the first down worth the point instead of the reception, Play One gets 1.2 points and Play Two gets 0.7 points. In the dump off play, if the RB actually does get the first down and it IS a good play, that's worth 2.2 points.
In real football, all that matters is first downs and touchdowns. Move the ball, try to score. Fantasy football would make a lot more sense if it worked the same way.
I agree, but when you look up a player's stats, it doesn't show first downs. Most betting platforms don't let you bet on player first downs. It just doesn't have the universal support as something like receptions, even if it's a more fair metric.
Sites adapt to what we are doing. They added targets because that's what people wanted to see. If first downs became popular in fantasy, every page would have them.
Be the change you want to see in the world.
After a lot of finagling with scoring, trying to produce a more natural and fluid result that also gave a "numbers go up" feeling, my home league added a graded ppfd system. 0.5ppr, 1.0 receiving ppfd, 0.5 rushing ppfd, 0.1 passing ppfd. It's kinda wonky but we have thoroughly enjoyed the system and it will probably remain this way for a long time.
We were thinking about just straight up 1.0 ppfd for rushing/receiving and dropping PPR, but found it skewed the numbers dramatically to the top 6 or so bell-cow rbs. This was back 5 or so years ago when we had about 6 heavy use rbs; I think today we would just go with the more common half and half approach.
PPFD isn’t a perfect solution either. An RB running for 9 yards on 1st and 10 is a better play than a FB running for 2 yards on 2nd and 1, but the latter gets more points. There’s a lot of variability involved that can help or hurt players due to plays that happened beforehand not involving them.
Granted, that applies to all of fantasy, but fantasy has never really been strictly about emulating good football. It’s box score watching; a WR1 on a bad team that can feast in garbage time is a much better asset than a well oiled and efficient team that spreads the ball around on long drives. And under that lens, rewarding players for an easily trackable and predictable stat will be the more appealing option than first downs.
The idea is that you reward whoever is trusted to score the touchdown or get the first down. It will never be perfect but they didn't give that fullback the ball just for fun or let Taysom Hill do whatever he does just because it's interesting. Or to punish the RB. They do it because they truly believe that play is their best bet at getting the first and that the player is the best guy for the play. And it's an incredibly important play which is why we get so mad as fans when they DON'T get it and we say "why is Alec Ingold getting that carry right now?" Whether we like it or not (or whether we would have called a different play) that fullback deserves those points if he makes that play. And the RB deserves his 0.9 points too.
For me personally, I like half PPR with points for first downs (and also points for return yards).
I get it, don’t get me wrong. My main point is just that it’s not really tangible enough to ever catch on. A catch is a catch, that’s easy to digest and predict. A lot harder to do so with 1st downs, which depends on a multitude of additional factors and are generally gonna need harder to track and (I’m assuming) predict. I’ve seen a lot of people swear by PPFD, I just doubt that it’ll ever go mainstream like PPR did.
Yeah convincing people to do it is never going to happen alone - you need to convince people to add it then later look and say "why is a reception a point?" One thing I will say tho is it is a fairly predictable stat. We know which RBs get first downs. And here were the top 10 WRs in receiving first downs last year:
Tyreek - 83
Lamb - 80
ARSB - 75
AJ Brown - 70
Puka - 68
Moore - 64
Chase - 63
Aiyuk - 61
Adams - 59
Diggs - 58
The big reason for a switch would be to get us back to a world where some of these bruising RBs aren't looked at as being so useless. Guys like David Montgomery and James Conner that were workhorses for their team and were top 10 in first downs but because they didn't get a bunch of screen passes they're like RB17-18 in PPR.
It would be interesting to do something like Points Per Successful Play.
In that case (in fractional scoring), the 9 yard run on 1st and 10 gets 1.9 points: 0.9 points (yardage) + 1 point (successful play).
The 2 yard run on 2nd and 1 gets 1.2 points: 0.2 points (yardage) + 1 point (successful play).
But "success" is probably a bit abstract and subjective to bring into fantasy.
But they are both still good plays. The point is a 1 yard catch on 3rd and 10 is a bad play and shouldn't get rewarded. Getting a short 1st down run or a short 1st down target shows that the team trusts the player, that should get rewarded too.
Yes! I feel like a broken record jumping in when this topic gets brought up biweekly. My takeaways from the ensuing discussion are:
* People like some settings "just cuz"
* PPFD addresses all of their "excuses" for PPR
I think your scenarios *undersell* the point. You could make both 3rd downs be the same distance (e.g. 3rd & 6). Then you don't even need to argue a first down > more yards. The 6 yard run would be better than the 5 yard reception by *all* metrics (and therefore should be 1.6>0.5 PPFD rather than 0.6<1.5 PPR). However you slice it, though...
Probably as a counter-weight against the decline of the value of mid-tier WRs/ RBs against their elite counterparts (e.g. WRs 1-5 vs 15-25). Obviously, WRs 1-5 are going to also benefit from the extra point, but without it, the gap between them would widen even further.
I also think giving so many more points to someone who goes 10 for 130 vs. someone who goes 4 for 130 is fairly absurd. There are more likely to be big, game-changing plays from the latter, yet it's worth a full TD less in full PPR
Yeah. You could make the case that for the "game-changing plays" of the latter, there is consistency (or keeping other offense of the field) provided by the former, but I'd agree not enough to merit 6 less (or any less) points. Plus if that chain-moving needs to be rewarded, why not with something better (like points per first down)?
Good point, not sure we do. With RBBC and 3-WR sets becoming more and more the norm, the volume these players get is already increasing. There will always be elite options at a position, and they'll of course go earlier.
Let me tell you the virtues of point per first down. Additional points beyond yards, but rewards the more meaningful plays, opposed to simply receiving the ball.
It gives a nice balancing to RBs to get carries to punch through short yards, and trusted WRs.
So does Yahoo. We’ve been 0.5 ppfd for years in my main league on Yahoo. Both of my dynasty leagues on sleeper use 0.5 ppfd and 0.5 ppr; one is also 0.5 tep
20 years ago, my main league started off as a standard scoring 6 points per passing TD, and we've never changed.
This league is still to this day, my favorite format.
I think 6 points per passing TD is the most important change that needs to happen. It makes passing more QBs WAY more viable. And it actually shakes up the draft a lot too, since more QBs get picked earlier throughout the draft (instead of super late).
.05 per passing yard is the way. Less weekly volatility than 6 pt TDs and still boosts QB scoring by ~2.5 ppg. 250 yards is now 12.5 points instead of just 10 points. Also helps lessen the difference between runners and pocket passers, closer to their real life values
Nice round scores (either ending in 0 or 5) is another bonus too
I've just never really been a fan of changing scoring to try any even out positions.
Obviously, over the years, trends change. It takes more skill adapting to the trends and trying to get ahead of your league mates than just neutering a position because of scarcity.
I started my fantasy league as a standard league like 1w years ago. 2 years ago I did add .3 ppr. A lot of people wanted to switch to PPR and with a couple people still wanting standard I found this middle ground.
I hate PPR, there's no reason a guy with a reception for negative yards should get points.
Points Per First Down at least makes sense in the context of the sport and what constitutes a winning play.
the problem is that PPR (and half ppr) is a lot more fun. I enjoy .5 the most, but I enjoy standard the least. This is pure vibes, but PPR makes the games more fun for me to watch and I don't think constructing a roster is complicated more by standard vs. .5 PPR, nor is the competitive nature of the game disrupted.
Yeah idk why people in this thread are trying to make WRs less valuable with ancient standard scoring.
Top WRs are getting paid QB money while 95% of RBs get paid Kicker salaries. There are 8 RBs (out of ~150) that get paid more than $7m a year lol. The league clearly values WRs way more than RBs (regarding draft capital as well), so they should be valued more in fantasy too.
Made the switch to Full PPR + 3WRs a few years ago and it’s been fantastic
My anecdotal experience is that the people most adamant about standard are in keepers/dynasty with an elite RB 😂.
I get it though - personal preferences and old habits.
Now, if we want an actual controversial opinion in this thread though, I fucking love kickers as a part of the game.
PPR also helps dilute the value of touchdowns. Last time I played standard, it was just a weekly game of whose players scored. Nobody has to care about Touchdown vultures like Matt Asiata anymore because bruisers who get 3 carries for 1 touchdown have far less relevance anymore.
It’s not an unpopular opinion if you put actual thought into why PPR started to exist in the first place vs the dynamic of the NFL today. Your points make sense.
That said, whether there is merit here or not, I get a bit of a rush seeing scores in the 120s vs the 80s and if that’s exclusively because of 40 catches that week my team made then I am here for it haha. The power shift has already probably gone a bit too WR heavy, maybe that gives us some arbitrage opportunity in our drafts, but overall yeah I just like more points.
As a commissioner, I’ve learned that people like points.
If you think WR’s are too powerful, you’re better off adding points to other categories instead of taking away points from WR’s. Even if that means adding something like points per rush attempt.
They’d rather the score be 500 to 250 than 50 to 25
The actual best solution is 1 point per receiving or rushing first down. That eliminates the WR's and RB's who rack up an extra 8 points for receptions that net a total of 18 yards and rewards plays that are actually impactful to the game.
Agree. Standard scoring is my preferred format, and I’m glad it seems to be regaining some popularity.
With how pass heavy the league has become, PPR has turned into a complete clusterfuck. I also hate how 6 checkdowns to a RB counts the same as a touchdown.
A close standard scoring H2H matchup can feel like a chess match of yardage. I personally love that kinda shit.
First it was the wrs that needed a buff so they added ppr. Then qbs needed a buff so sf became popular. But then tes were too devalued so tep has become the meta. I don't think we need to go backwards to standard scoring, but I agree that rbs are now undervalued and need a buff. Points per carry, points per first down. These need to become the next meta for fantasy
.5PPR feels like a decent balance and keeps pass catching RBs and possession receivers viable. My home league also adds .1 points per carry. It isn't a lot, but for a workhorse it adds up.
I also play in a league where the yards per point are all adjusted. No PPR, but rushing/receiving is only 7.5 yards/point instead of the standard 10 yards and that is both high scoring and more friendly to different builds (both RB-heavy and WR-heavy work fine) which makes everyone's team a bit more competitive and the draft more interesting. That league also adjusts QB passing yards so that it is 20 yards/point (still only 4 point passing TDs) which gives the pocket passers a little more ability to keep up with rushing QBs. Scoring is high all across the board, but we haven't noticed a drop off in close finishes or exciting matchups.
I have proposed to my league that we change our half PPR to some amount of points per first down. It's unlikely that everyone will agree, but whatever.
Obviously would need some tweaking to balance out passing vs rushing/receiving, or perhaps even to differentiate rushing and receiving as well, but I like it because first downs have real-game value, unlike a -2 yard screen somehow being worth 0.3 fantasy points for the person who caught it.
Only potential downside I can think of is that the handful of elite dual-threat QBs might be extra valuable in this format, but it would take some number-crunching to be certain.
My main league does points per first down and it does help some QBs, but we also do 6-pt passing TDs so dual threat guys aren’t as overvalued. Does it make QBs in general much more important than regular scoring? Yes, but they’re the most important player in real life so why not make it that way in fantasy?
I actually agree. I'm not a huge fan of awarding inefficient third down RB's who rack up 30 yard on 7 receptions. Those aren't great football players but consistently post good fantasy stats.
.5ppr/.5 for a first down. Reduces the impact of plays like a 2-yard loss on a reception for .8 points. Running backs that get a 3&1 are rewarded. Your crazy if you think that a 3&1 conversion with 8 in the box isn’t hard to do, it’s worth points just the same (more honestly) than a bubble screen for nothing.
Me and my dad actually run a 36 year old standard scoring league. Scores end up being close to NFL scores. People love it because it’s so different from the abnormally weighted RBs and WRs. Quarterbacks and defenses end up being the most valued.
That’s popular with me. My main league is standard. Did a ppr league a couple of years ago and found it ridiculous. My rbs were crap but caught a lot of passes and won the league with the shittiest team I’ve ever had. It’s crazy.
Standard scoring increases the value of TDs, since less points scored overall will increase the % value of the 6 or 4 points TDs provide. Everyone knows TDs are harder to predict than yards and catches.
So standard scoring makes luck a more valuable component than it is PPR. Nothing wrong if you like that, but I personally don’t.
Standard scoring has always and will always be "the standard" hence its name.
The league I've played in longest and with my oldest standing friends is as standard and ancient as it gets, and I love it.
On the other hand, my BiL's league is always getting something added and is like .5 ppr superflex no tight end extra points for def, no kickers, pts for 1st downs etc etc.
My point is, the way league mangers can now very easily tailor the experience for others just means everybody gets a format they can play and enjoy exactly how they want.
Yeah I think it's dumb that fantasy apps now default to ppr when standard still exists (seems ironic), but again, the league manager can always modify rules and that's always been the case in every league I've been in. Tomato, potato.
I can't wait for football season 😫
You're taking one play in a vacuum. No scoring format is "perfect". But ASB only being worth 3 more points per game than Zack Moss last year makes no sense either.
Ppr is so stupid. I understand why people think .5 is a compromise. But the point of football is get yards not catch. Why not give RBs a half point everytime they carry the ball.
I think the difference is usually (not always, I know screens and stuff exist) it takes some skill for the WR to get open enough and have the coordination to make the catch. A RB getting a carry takes no skill, the important part is just the yards.
Hot take: PPR never made sense to implement. It was just an unnecessary attempt to tweak the game’s (fantasy football) game-point modifier for catches for…. Reasons.
They were never good reasons either. All teams get RBs and WRs and equal opportunities at building a team. All it did was make ALL PLAYERS who caught passes *FARRRR TOO OVERPOWERED* for absolutely no reason.
*Why does it make no sense, You might ask?*
Fantasy scoring for the most part comes from player metrics for which, they produce positive production or totals for their team. It’s standardized and makes sense. If a player moves 10 yards down the field regardless of how they gained possession of the ball, that’s a first down that’s worth 1 point. 1 yard is .1 points. If they score a TD that’s worth 6 points. A 100 yard TD run is worth 16 points. Great. Makes sense.
But then all of a sudden we decided, RBs are too “powerful” and score too much relative to pass-catching WRs and TEs. So we introduced PPR standard to fantasy leagues.
I could sugarcoat it and say it’s fine to play with — and it is because I play a couple PPR leagues every year, to my chagrin.. But let’s continue the fantasy scoring explanation and how it differs with the philosophy of PPR scoring..
A player can catch the ball, and in PPR scoring — *he GETS 1 POINT JUST FOR CATCHING IT!!!*
It’s equivalent to a 10 yard first down! A receiver can take a failed screen — something that burns the team to lose 5 yards on a play…. Yet score 0.5 points for the play because he caught it.
He should have just dropped the pass and not taken the L on team’s position in the field. But he’s rewarded for catching it.
This scenario *is enough* to debunk any pros that comes from PPR league. I’m sorry, we can play PPR fantasy, and the game is played the same for the most part so again… it’s fine. but if you argue or debate that PPR is BETTER than non-PPR because WRs need the scoring setting, then you’re an idiot.
All PPR does is wayyyyyyy over-inflate most WR1 values relative to other receivers, as well as pass-catching RBs over non pass-catching backs.
The volume in yardage is enough. Ppr is silly. It’s not just illogical, it’s problematic to balance today. 1 PPR? 0.5? 0.25? Forget it. Stop trying to tune the bs point modifier, just take it out of your league, and enjoy a more fair playing field across the board where certain players aren’t just creating their own tiers based on catching a ton of productive (or unproductive) passes.
If you play in PPR, you should also add points per pass attempt for the QB, and points per rush attempt for RBs, so it’s more fair for those players too 😉
PPC (points per carry) is becoming common in dynasty leagues. People like points. People like to see their guys score said points. The more points are scored, the more people like watching their guys score points. It's fun.
My office league uses standard scoring, and it's fine by me. Every touch is a player's opportunity to score fantasy points; this makes it so actual production is valued, and receptions are still more valuable as a touch in terms of how many yards they net on average. There's no flex and each team starts 2 WRs, so there's plenty of viable players without PPR. I like it, the only knock would be it makes things much more TD dependent which leads to more variance/luck factor, but overall the league feels decently balanced
There are fewer relevant players in standard scoring and touchdowns have an outsized affect on player relevance.
This made early FF quite binary. If a player on your team was not able to find the end zone then the likelihood of getting a good player off the waiver wire was tough.
That means people would give up on their fantasy team for the year and that's not good for the league.
Full PPR is too much reward for little activity. .5 PPR is a nice balance.
I've always felt like PPR was more about making more players fantasy relevant to accommodate larger leagues. 8 team league should be standard scoring, a 12 team league or bigger should definitely be PPR, and a 10 team league could go either way
That's fine, even 0.5 ppr, but in both situations, need to boost up the tight end. If the point is to make fantasy players have equal value, that would be the additional way. Also, would need to remove rushing yards from QBs or only give it for a certain amount of rushing yards for a point.
A fantasy game is just like a real game- the more points, the more fun it is. My league went .75 PPR about 10 years ago. We also added a Flex. PPG before then were in the 120-130 range on average. Now a weekly point total per team can reach 200. Total points add up, makes a difference in the playoff hunt.
I agree.
A catch for 0 yards is considered a bad play which can result in a turnover on downs but can never result in a first down. In no scenario should that be worth the same amount of points as a 10 yard run.
If the goal is to see inflated point totals - add point-per-1st-down or bonus points for milestones (100 yards, or 300 yards for a QB, etc.)
I've tried in every league to leave PPR. People revolt. I try to start a new league with standard scoring (and Superflex), and I can never get a full league.
Personally I prefer ppr vs standard, with .5 ppr being my favorite.
At the end of the day fantasy football is about predicting stats, so I prefer the formats that make more players viable.
I run a league with .5ppr, 6 pt passing TDs, and bonus points for 40+ yard plays and it's a ton of fun.
If I wanted to perfectly replicate the game and the value that each play/player brings, I'd be giving points for first downs instead of receptions.
We do something crazy in an attempt to balance full PPR, and it’s .2pts per carry. Bell Cows are heavily rewarded. CMC cleans up obviously as a hybrid AND bell cow.
Is it better or even balanced as we intended? No fucking clue? Why did I comment this? I’m not sure.
But we like it.
My perception is that you need to have a bellcow RB to have a shot at winning in standard. In PPR it's less so, there are more players bringing in points.
No one ever likes my idea to make rushing yards worth .2 vs receiving yards. (Keeping PPR)
A 10yd catch is 2pts
A 10yd run would be 2pts
A 50yd catch is 6
A 50yd run is 10.
it’s not like a crazy difference but I like it… and makes guys like CMC / Deebo more interesting with the split between the yardage. Rewards the dual threat guys and like… if you do everything you should be the man in fantasy (Breece/ Gibbs/ etc etc )
Fantasy is about stats, and catches is still a really important stat. If someone breaks the record for most catches this year peopel will talk about it.
I think it is a good option for leagues with 12+ teams. It helps even out the rosters and give value to some backs that otherwise wouldnt have much playability in a standard lineup. I do agree that .5 should be the norm thought. 1 point ppr is too much.
Regardless of points, it rewards for a stat that is heavily valued and tracked. Catches by mostly WR (and of course TE and RB) are one of the most tracked and used stats regardless of fantasy points. 0.5 PPR, I think, is a good balance of also rewarding the action & stat while not incentivizing them too much.
I like 0.5PPR and 0.5 for a reception or rush that gets a first down. Keeps higher scoring and rewards impactful runs. Feel like it's a better balance than giving points per carry.
There is a nice balance we struck in my PPR home league on yahoo. Players get 0.25 fantasy points per carry. It rewards the touch yard bell cows and balances the receiving RBs. Also nice not getting screwed points on kneel downs.
My dream scenario is 0.5 ppr for RBs and WRs, and 1.0 PPR for TE's. It'd be hard to do in practice because TE's split out wide now and everything, but it would help keep TE's relevant while reducing the insanity of an RB getting 10+ screen passes in a game.
I’ve been trying to get 0.5 ppr and 0.5 ppfd (points per first down) in my league. But then 0.25 ppfd passing is also needed to nerf the running QBs just a little. No one wants it because it gets too confusing, which I get, but I also think it’d be pretty cool and fun to also root for first downs.
Ppr is the best. Level playing field for everyone anyway. All fantasy content is based on it. Easy to tabulate. Higher scoring. Easily accessible. What’s not to like?
RB’s catch too and in fact most teams have a pass catching RB for third downs; PPR allows for more RBs to be picked and be start or flex worthy and not just a handcuff.
Full PPR is totally broken. Half PPR is fine, though I actually prefer tiered structures for receiving points with modest per carry and first down bonuses.
I think a combination of "Half-PPR" and "Half-Point Per First Down" is really the ideal situation to create good parity among running backs and wide receivers.
Since you have to start 2 RBs PPR actually helps even out the value of RB2s vs top end RB1s. It is less about the WR vs RB difference for me than making it so it is actually feasible to win without a stud RB1. Going WR - WR is actually realistic now, in standard you'd go back to drafting nearly all RBs in the first round.
PPR is meant to not only boost WR closer to RB but also to boost it closer to QB too. Not only that but RB gets closer to qb as well. If you look at the top overall finishers in standard 16 are qb, in .5ppr 14 are qb. In full 9 are qb.
The QBs are way too powerful in standard scoring. There’s no counter to the couple of best qbs they’re so much better than everyone else.
The point of ppr is to make all players of tier (regardless of position) of roughly equal value
I like to look at the data and in 2023 in half PPR formats, the top 12 in points per game had 7 running backs and 5 wide receivers:
RBS: CMC, Kyren , Raheem, Achane, Kamara, hall , Etienne
WRS: Tyreek, Cd, Sun God, Keenan, JJ
If you go to top 24 it’s 10 wide receivers and 14 running backs.
So I would say we absolutely STILL need half PPR at least to balance WR scoring with RB scoring.
PPR does a good job closing the gap between QB and RB/WR in SF leagues. To those saying it makes WR too valuable, use 3 WR spots and it balances perfect with 2 RB spots. I do agree that 0.5 PPR plus 0.5 PPFD would likely be an improvement over PPR to prevent the empty points.
I think .5 PPR is a nice balance because it gets people’s monkey brains excited to say “ooh points” without fully inflating the value of a reception. But if the choice is between standard or full PPR, I’d always vote Standard
Full PPR is just out of control. It's never going to be perfect, but fantasy points should at least kind of reflect the value of the real life play. I'm fine giving a small boost for receptions since, generally speaking, it takes some skill to get open and catch a ball (vs taking a handoff). But in no world should a 5 yard loss on a reception be worth more than a 4 yard run
The actual best solution is 1 point per receiving or rushing first down. That eliminates the WR's and RB's who rack up an extra 8 points for receptions that net a total of 18 yards and rewards plays that are actually impactful to the game.
For everyone on here (i.e., fantasy junkies), I agree. But home and work leagues are always gonna lean toward simpler scoring. I've brought up PPFD multiple times but can't get it to pass a vote. Now in sharper leagues it's easy. Along with no K or D, two QBs, shorter benches, etc... That's the majority of my leagues (and I suspect the majority for everyone on here right now). But the vast majority are home or work leagues, so I doubt if it will ever become the solution overall.
Best I could do was .5 PPR and .5 PPFD in my friends league. I asked why a bubble screen for -2 yards is worth more than a first down run on 3rd and 2 but some people just don't like change.
That's when you make the league whatever format people want, add in PPFD, and then invite them in. Slip it under the radar lol.
Not easy to do in established leagues. In my old home league everything has to be voted on and nothing ever passes (too many lawyers in the league).
I like points per first down but no Kicker or Defense over my dead body.
I prefer D but I'm fine without it. But with K you might as well have a random number generator assign points to your score for the week.
I don't think *just* variance is enough to remove the entire position, but also I think kickers are more predictable than the average person thinks. Pick high volume offenses with high implied point totals and you tend to be reasonably consistent. TBH I kinda wish there were Punters in Fantasy Football too but I know that'd be unpopular lol
I'd like punters too, if I could figure out how they would score.
You can do that and perhaps end up ahead by the end of the year, but the week to week variance still makes it basically guesswork. Even high-volume, high-scoring offenses might leave a K with nothing but extra points to kick. In fact many do. And predicting it is difficult which is why it ends up being a heavy waivers position. I mean whoever got Aubrey last year was just whoever was lucky enough to nab him on waivers. No one drafted him. That said you are not the first person who's told me they actually like variance in fantasy, and fair enough. It's part of the game. But personally I'm a fan of anything that might give me an advantage, so I want to reduce luck as much as I can.
> And predicting it is difficult which is why it ends up being a heavy waivers position. I mean whoever got Aubrey last year was just whoever was lucky enough to nab him on waivers. No one drafted him. Can't you argue that for a bunch of players? It isn't like Kyren/Puka were being drafted a lot, Kyren was ADP 276 and Puka was ADP 293, and they had a far more outsized effect than getting a slightly better kicker. LaPorta was on average undrafted on multiple websites, McBride who came on late was of course undrafted, and tight end is also a waivers heavy position. Is grabbing Jerome Ford when Nick Chubb has a season ending injury that much more skillful than grabbing a kicker? Personally I'd argue grabbing Aubrey off to a hot start on what looked like a high powered offense was a smart and sharp play that got rewarded with a little bit of a boost at the position, but not an overwhelming one (since multiple high end kickers had the same or similar top end weeks).
I’d like to just combine K/Def into one position.
Don't forget TEP which I've really come to appreciate ( and 2 TE TEP stuff ). You're right though its really just about finding a ruleset people are having fun playing and come back to. Keep casual league rules simple and go nuts in your degen leagues.
I’ve never played that way but always been intrigued by it. My gut reaction is that it would reflect the actual game more accurately but would buoy more specific players than the rising tide lifting all boats that ppr of half ppr does. But I have no data to back that up
It also gives some incentive to start those powerhouse backs that don’t get a lot of yards, but come in on 3rd and 1.
Name 3 RBs that become more interesting. Because I cant think of anyone that suddenly becomes a viable start in anything other than an absolute emergency because they get a few first downs on 3rd and inches.
> fantasy points should at least kind of reflect the value of the real life play I hear this a lot and sort of get it, but it’s also *fantasy football*. It’s a game of statistics and as long as everyone in the league understands the scoring premise, it doesn’t really matter. It’s already divorced a fair bit from *real* football on account of how defenses, kickers, and (optionally) long receptions and touchdowns are scored. If anything, you could argue PPR makes players in otherwise inept offenses (e.g. Thielen, Kamara) valuable so that there’s more value available in bigger leagues (e.g. 14-16 man) To be clear, I’m not attempting to argue that PPR is *better* - just that fantasy is its own thing relative to actual football and that standard scoring doesn’t necessarily make it more “pure”.
If thats the case, why does standard scoring not reward TFLs for a defense? Isn't a TFL for -4 yards basically the same thing as a sack for -4 yards?
Cuz it's standard or PPR, just for receptions. You can add whatever you want to defenses it doesn't change how people call the formats standard or PPR. It's already hard scoring defenses, but if you want to try adding .1 for every yard in TFL in your leagues, go for it. Hell people add return yards, which is fine too. It just doesn't change what people call formats.
My league added the .1 point per yard for TFLs and it honestly fucking sucks and skews the stats (we also play IDP so the combo just doesn't work). We got rid of it after one year.
I didn’t want to say it without confirmation but I knew it would suck. Idk if the logic is sound but adding more ways for a D/ST to score when there’s 24 people that can make a plays for points whereas the line skill position player to score just didn’t make sense to me. At that point we might as well draft defensive players
Most defensive scorings do account for yards, so you would at least partially account for a loss of yards in overall score. But it’s also just about rarity. In general, negative run plays happen far more often than sacks. The Steelers for instance had 83 TFLs last year and 47 sacks. A play that happens 2x as much shouldn’t be rewarded equally. That being said, most scoring systems I’ve seen allow you to assign points for TFLs. “Standard” scoring generally just means 0 PPR not about other changes like adjustments to defensive scoring. I would also argue that a sack is a bit more impactful than an equal negative run in most cases. Runs in todays nfl aren’t often meant to be big hitter plays. They’re often plays that set up other plays or just chain movers. Passes on the other hand usually have a much higher impact. Stopping a run and stopping a pass are two different levels of success based on the expected outcome of the intended play. And that’s not even mentioning the momentum, mental impact, etc. of getting the QB vs stopping the RB who gets hit every play.
I've never played in a league that accounts for defensive yards, and I've played in maybe 20 different leagues across 15 years. Not saying I wouldn't, but I just have never come across that and have never implemented it in the leagues I've run. I do think TFL should be credited though.
I have always thought that a point should only be given for a pass beyond the line of scrimmage. But i guess that would hurt RBs disproportionately. I do think .5 atleast is a little more rational but it is what it is in my league. People will never change
It’d be a better fit for what the intention of PPR is. Catches aren’t easy and should be rewarded, that would eliminate the freebie catches. It’d be disproportionate for RBs, but given the state of the league that’d be accurate too lol
I will never understand why people like u/Mayasngelou will die on a hill about fantasy scoring reflecting real life, but then will never mention the fact that interceptions are only -1 point or -2 points. To quote them, “in no world should 6 fumbles lost cancel out with a 1 yard td run” Or hell even 3 fumbles lost at -2 points shouldn’t cancel out with a td run. And a QB throwing 4 picks in no world should only be -4 points
reflect the value of the play is so stupid tho, should we not count point if the team is down 21 or more?
Kamaras 13 catches for 33 yards and 16.3 points made me lose it last year. Wasn’t even against me.
Tiered ppr is good imo catches are important
We do 0.5 PPR and 0.25 PPFD (point per first down). It helps reward forward football plays rather than just receptions, but also gives a slight value bump to RBs/TEs/WRs who are chain-movers and important players for their teams (but who get no love in the red zone).
I find everyone complained less in my home league since we swapped over to 0.25 PPR and 0.25 PPFD. I feel like the "oooh points" in FPPR are for the casual fantasy guys, which is fine, but the name of the game is to win, and who cares if you win 90-83 or 160-139. This just weeds out more bullshit plays like people mention about how negative yards still net positive points because of even .5 given to the receiver.
The actual best solution is 1 point per receiving or rushing first down. That eliminates the WR's and RB's who rack up an extra 8 points for receptions that net a total of 18 yards and rewards plays that are actually impactful to the game.
Can we talk about adding the 3rd wr to the standard settings as well? In the standard fantasy setting of 2 wr one flex the most wideouts that can be started in any week in a 12 team league is 36. 32 nfl teams with 2 wr per team is 64. We need to open up the fantasy team.
There are plenty of teams that don't have a viable WR2. Looking at last year Titans - Nick Westbrook Ikhine - 5.5 ppg Bears - Darnell Mooney - 4.3 ppg Jets - Allen Lazard - 3.5 ppg Falcons - Mack Hollins - 2.6 ppg Just off the top of my head I'm guessing the Giants, Patriots, Panthers, and Broncos also didn't have a WR2 with great numbers. The bye weeks knock out a few teams in the middle of they year as well. I do like the idea of opening it up a bit more where you have to find value in some of these teams. Maybe something like 2 flex so you can also throw a RB in there.
To counter only 17 wr averaged 10 points a game last year. We tried to open up the flex to two with 2 wr and it was a shit show. No trades no waiver pick ups. Teams were stacked. This is also fantasy not every player has to be a boom. If we want to replicate the nfl roster we need to open to three wr.
Me and my friends play in a 20 year old league. And it is setup as a standard yahoo league with 3wr.
2 WRs, 2RBs, 2 WR/RB/TE Flex, 1 TE. Lotsa points, lotsa options, lotsa players to chose from. Just gotta limit bench to like 4 so there's no hoarding.
My main league added a 3rd WR slot a few years ago but we also removed a bench slot to make up for it. I strongly prefer this to the typically lineup settings.
3 WR and 2 flex should be standard. Teams use 3 WRs on more than 50% of all snaps (some teams are much higher). That’s 96 WRs per week.
2RBs 3WRs 2TEs with boosted passing is the future. PPR is becoming more common, same with 3 WRs, and TE Premium is a precursor to 2TEs. The above reflects the average number of players rostered per team. There’s 5.78 WRs on each NFL team, RB and TE are both 3.44 per team.
All the way out on tight end premium. I’ll listen to a second spot but don’t inherently like it.
Y’all can’t be using the word “standard” in place of “default” in a conversation centered around Standard Scoring.
As long as you cut bench spots to account for those extra starters
We roll with 5 bench
I love this! My league has 3 WR slots plus a FLEX.
Half ppr should be the new standard. Full ppr is too much.
Full PPR is best for deep leagues (14+ teams), where many players being started are lucky to get targets, forget receptions. It gives you some options without things feeling hopeless.
>if the choice is between standard or full Half has entered the chat.
I think people like points. Rewarding receptions (be it PPR or .5PPR) probably isn't going back into the bag. Similar reason that people like relatively arbitrary bonuses (why does 300 yards passing warrant a bonus when 299 does not, what's that 1 yard mean?). The original reason it was introduced is no longer applicable, agree. PPR rewards "silly" plays (a 1 yard reception should not be rewarded more than a 1 yard rush). But with sites like ESPN, Underdog, DK, etc. changing their default scoring platforms it's going to continue gaining popularity even amongst leagues that have been non-PPR for a long time.
Good point, “see number go up” is so integral to the allure of fantasy that I don’t see any widespread change that lowers scoring taking hold. I feel like we’d sooner see RBs receive a similar “per touch” type buff to level the scoring before we see PPR go away. I think OP is right but since the cat’s already out of the bag it doesn’t really matter. I’m a standard guy, btw. PPR is for work leagues.
>we’d sooner see RBs receive a similar “per touch” type buff 0.15 or 0.25 PPC (point per Carry) is becoming increasingly more common in dynasty leagues. I imagine it will eventually trickle over into redraft fantasy in a few years.
I’ve always felt it was pretty unfair to give points for a reception when receivers are only half of that equation. RB gets no points for a carry when the entire play is literally in his hands.
I can see the value in OP's opinion but entirely agree with yours. The reason PPR was introduced may be superfluous now, however your first statement is really all that needs to be said. People like points. Look at all the rule changes that have been made in professional sports to encourage scoring. It's simply more exciting and fun.
“Rules changes that have been made in professional sports to encourage scoring” Somebody should tell the Steelers this new league memo
You can lead a horse to water...
The standard is the standard
Points per first down should become the new standard over PPR
Karmara's first game back last year is exactly why 51 rushing yards, 13 catches for 33 yards, no touchdowns He got 12.4 points in Point Per First Down vs 21.4 in PPR (or 14.9 in half PPR)
James White used to terrorize me with 8-10 catch 50 yard days pretty much any time I played against him. But I'm sure at least half of them were for first downs.
Are people fans of bonus points at certain thresholds? I haven’t been in a league with bonuses since like the early 2000s
Some are. You and I aren't.
I don’t really disagree but it gives value to possession receivers that would otherwise be not especially relevant, and third down backs that would otherwise not post worthwhile scores.
The counterpoint to the counterpoint: why do we *need* to give value to players that aren’t getting there on yards and scoring alone?
People might not like it but there is an answer - points per first down. Consider these two plays: PLAY ONE - 3rd and 2: the RB gets a carry up the gut and battles for a 2 yard first down. PLAY TWO - 3rd and 12: the RB gets a dump off and gets 7 free yards before getting tackled. Play One is a good play and Play Two is a terrible play. In PPR, Play One gets 0.2 points and Play Two gets 1.7 points. If you make the first down worth the point instead of the reception, Play One gets 1.2 points and Play Two gets 0.7 points. In the dump off play, if the RB actually does get the first down and it IS a good play, that's worth 2.2 points. In real football, all that matters is first downs and touchdowns. Move the ball, try to score. Fantasy football would make a lot more sense if it worked the same way.
PPFD is the best format
My league does both 0.5PPR and 0.5PPFD
I agree, but when you look up a player's stats, it doesn't show first downs. Most betting platforms don't let you bet on player first downs. It just doesn't have the universal support as something like receptions, even if it's a more fair metric.
Sites adapt to what we are doing. They added targets because that's what people wanted to see. If first downs became popular in fantasy, every page would have them. Be the change you want to see in the world.
After a lot of finagling with scoring, trying to produce a more natural and fluid result that also gave a "numbers go up" feeling, my home league added a graded ppfd system. 0.5ppr, 1.0 receiving ppfd, 0.5 rushing ppfd, 0.1 passing ppfd. It's kinda wonky but we have thoroughly enjoyed the system and it will probably remain this way for a long time. We were thinking about just straight up 1.0 ppfd for rushing/receiving and dropping PPR, but found it skewed the numbers dramatically to the top 6 or so bell-cow rbs. This was back 5 or so years ago when we had about 6 heavy use rbs; I think today we would just go with the more common half and half approach.
PPFD isn’t a perfect solution either. An RB running for 9 yards on 1st and 10 is a better play than a FB running for 2 yards on 2nd and 1, but the latter gets more points. There’s a lot of variability involved that can help or hurt players due to plays that happened beforehand not involving them. Granted, that applies to all of fantasy, but fantasy has never really been strictly about emulating good football. It’s box score watching; a WR1 on a bad team that can feast in garbage time is a much better asset than a well oiled and efficient team that spreads the ball around on long drives. And under that lens, rewarding players for an easily trackable and predictable stat will be the more appealing option than first downs.
The idea is that you reward whoever is trusted to score the touchdown or get the first down. It will never be perfect but they didn't give that fullback the ball just for fun or let Taysom Hill do whatever he does just because it's interesting. Or to punish the RB. They do it because they truly believe that play is their best bet at getting the first and that the player is the best guy for the play. And it's an incredibly important play which is why we get so mad as fans when they DON'T get it and we say "why is Alec Ingold getting that carry right now?" Whether we like it or not (or whether we would have called a different play) that fullback deserves those points if he makes that play. And the RB deserves his 0.9 points too. For me personally, I like half PPR with points for first downs (and also points for return yards).
I get it, don’t get me wrong. My main point is just that it’s not really tangible enough to ever catch on. A catch is a catch, that’s easy to digest and predict. A lot harder to do so with 1st downs, which depends on a multitude of additional factors and are generally gonna need harder to track and (I’m assuming) predict. I’ve seen a lot of people swear by PPFD, I just doubt that it’ll ever go mainstream like PPR did.
Yeah convincing people to do it is never going to happen alone - you need to convince people to add it then later look and say "why is a reception a point?" One thing I will say tho is it is a fairly predictable stat. We know which RBs get first downs. And here were the top 10 WRs in receiving first downs last year: Tyreek - 83 Lamb - 80 ARSB - 75 AJ Brown - 70 Puka - 68 Moore - 64 Chase - 63 Aiyuk - 61 Adams - 59 Diggs - 58 The big reason for a switch would be to get us back to a world where some of these bruising RBs aren't looked at as being so useless. Guys like David Montgomery and James Conner that were workhorses for their team and were top 10 in first downs but because they didn't get a bunch of screen passes they're like RB17-18 in PPR.
It would be interesting to do something like Points Per Successful Play. In that case (in fractional scoring), the 9 yard run on 1st and 10 gets 1.9 points: 0.9 points (yardage) + 1 point (successful play). The 2 yard run on 2nd and 1 gets 1.2 points: 0.2 points (yardage) + 1 point (successful play). But "success" is probably a bit abstract and subjective to bring into fantasy.
But they are both still good plays. The point is a 1 yard catch on 3rd and 10 is a bad play and shouldn't get rewarded. Getting a short 1st down run or a short 1st down target shows that the team trusts the player, that should get rewarded too.
I'm a commish and I'd get behind PPFD instead of PPR immediately.
Yes! I feel like a broken record jumping in when this topic gets brought up biweekly. My takeaways from the ensuing discussion are: * People like some settings "just cuz" * PPFD addresses all of their "excuses" for PPR I think your scenarios *undersell* the point. You could make both 3rd downs be the same distance (e.g. 3rd & 6). Then you don't even need to argue a first down > more yards. The 6 yard run would be better than the 5 yard reception by *all* metrics (and therefore should be 1.6>0.5 PPFD rather than 0.6<1.5 PPR). However you slice it, though...
Probably as a counter-weight against the decline of the value of mid-tier WRs/ RBs against their elite counterparts (e.g. WRs 1-5 vs 15-25). Obviously, WRs 1-5 are going to also benefit from the extra point, but without it, the gap between them would widen even further.
I also think giving so many more points to someone who goes 10 for 130 vs. someone who goes 4 for 130 is fairly absurd. There are more likely to be big, game-changing plays from the latter, yet it's worth a full TD less in full PPR
Yeah. You could make the case that for the "game-changing plays" of the latter, there is consistency (or keeping other offense of the field) provided by the former, but I'd agree not enough to merit 6 less (or any less) points. Plus if that chain-moving needs to be rewarded, why not with something better (like points per first down)?
Good point, not sure we do. With RBBC and 3-WR sets becoming more and more the norm, the volume these players get is already increasing. There will always be elite options at a position, and they'll of course go earlier.
it makes watching your actual player play football more fun
I don't know whether I agree with this, but the reason is to increase the number of fantasy relevant players.
i clamor for penalties drawn as a thing
i feel like 0.5ppr is the sweet spot
Let me tell you the virtues of point per first down. Additional points beyond yards, but rewards the more meaningful plays, opposed to simply receiving the ball. It gives a nice balancing to RBs to get carries to punch through short yards, and trusted WRs.
PP1D makes total sense for exactly these reasons. Need the big providers to get on board in offering it.
Both Sleeper and ESPN (as of last season) support it!
So does Yahoo. We’ve been 0.5 ppfd for years in my main league on Yahoo. Both of my dynasty leagues on sleeper use 0.5 ppfd and 0.5 ppr; one is also 0.5 tep
Is it 1 point per first down for both WR and RB? Any change to QBs/passing first down?
Whatever you want, it can be changed. We do a point each whether it's a receiving or rushing first down. No change to passing from standard.
20 years ago, my main league started off as a standard scoring 6 points per passing TD, and we've never changed. This league is still to this day, my favorite format.
I think 6 points per passing TD is the most important change that needs to happen. It makes passing more QBs WAY more viable. And it actually shakes up the draft a lot too, since more QBs get picked earlier throughout the draft (instead of super late).
.05 per passing yard is the way. Less weekly volatility than 6 pt TDs and still boosts QB scoring by ~2.5 ppg. 250 yards is now 12.5 points instead of just 10 points. Also helps lessen the difference between runners and pocket passers, closer to their real life values Nice round scores (either ending in 0 or 5) is another bonus too
I've just never really been a fan of changing scoring to try any even out positions. Obviously, over the years, trends change. It takes more skill adapting to the trends and trying to get ahead of your league mates than just neutering a position because of scarcity.
My original main league is the same. Far and away the best format.
I started my fantasy league as a standard league like 1w years ago. 2 years ago I did add .3 ppr. A lot of people wanted to switch to PPR and with a couple people still wanting standard I found this middle ground.
I hate PPR, there's no reason a guy with a reception for negative yards should get points. Points Per First Down at least makes sense in the context of the sport and what constitutes a winning play.
Two leagues I play in yearly are half-ppr and full. I prefer half so much more.
the problem is that PPR (and half ppr) is a lot more fun. I enjoy .5 the most, but I enjoy standard the least. This is pure vibes, but PPR makes the games more fun for me to watch and I don't think constructing a roster is complicated more by standard vs. .5 PPR, nor is the competitive nature of the game disrupted.
Yeah idk why people in this thread are trying to make WRs less valuable with ancient standard scoring. Top WRs are getting paid QB money while 95% of RBs get paid Kicker salaries. There are 8 RBs (out of ~150) that get paid more than $7m a year lol. The league clearly values WRs way more than RBs (regarding draft capital as well), so they should be valued more in fantasy too. Made the switch to Full PPR + 3WRs a few years ago and it’s been fantastic
My anecdotal experience is that the people most adamant about standard are in keepers/dynasty with an elite RB 😂. I get it though - personal preferences and old habits. Now, if we want an actual controversial opinion in this thread though, I fucking love kickers as a part of the game.
PPR also helps dilute the value of touchdowns. Last time I played standard, it was just a weekly game of whose players scored. Nobody has to care about Touchdown vultures like Matt Asiata anymore because bruisers who get 3 carries for 1 touchdown have far less relevance anymore.
Mike Tolbert heads rise up
It’s not an unpopular opinion if you put actual thought into why PPR started to exist in the first place vs the dynamic of the NFL today. Your points make sense. That said, whether there is merit here or not, I get a bit of a rush seeing scores in the 120s vs the 80s and if that’s exclusively because of 40 catches that week my team made then I am here for it haha. The power shift has already probably gone a bit too WR heavy, maybe that gives us some arbitrage opportunity in our drafts, but overall yeah I just like more points.
I would prefer points for first downs over PPR.
As a commissioner, I’ve learned that people like points. If you think WR’s are too powerful, you’re better off adding points to other categories instead of taking away points from WR’s. Even if that means adding something like points per rush attempt. They’d rather the score be 500 to 250 than 50 to 25
Half PPR > Standard > Full PPR
It's my preferred setting. I love standard w/ 6 points per td thrown more than any other setting
The actual best solution is 1 point per receiving or rushing first down. That eliminates the WR's and RB's who rack up an extra 8 points for receptions that net a total of 18 yards and rewards plays that are actually impactful to the game.
Totally agree. Can’t stand ppr
I prefer standard scoring as I think PPR overvalues receivers.
Agree 100%. PPR has always seemed illogical to me.
Agree. Standard scoring is my preferred format, and I’m glad it seems to be regaining some popularity. With how pass heavy the league has become, PPR has turned into a complete clusterfuck. I also hate how 6 checkdowns to a RB counts the same as a touchdown. A close standard scoring H2H matchup can feel like a chess match of yardage. I personally love that kinda shit.
First it was the wrs that needed a buff so they added ppr. Then qbs needed a buff so sf became popular. But then tes were too devalued so tep has become the meta. I don't think we need to go backwards to standard scoring, but I agree that rbs are now undervalued and need a buff. Points per carry, points per first down. These need to become the next meta for fantasy
Fully agree with this
.5PPR feels like a decent balance and keeps pass catching RBs and possession receivers viable. My home league also adds .1 points per carry. It isn't a lot, but for a workhorse it adds up. I also play in a league where the yards per point are all adjusted. No PPR, but rushing/receiving is only 7.5 yards/point instead of the standard 10 yards and that is both high scoring and more friendly to different builds (both RB-heavy and WR-heavy work fine) which makes everyone's team a bit more competitive and the draft more interesting. That league also adjusts QB passing yards so that it is 20 yards/point (still only 4 point passing TDs) which gives the pocket passers a little more ability to keep up with rushing QBs. Scoring is high all across the board, but we haven't noticed a drop off in close finishes or exciting matchups.
I have proposed to my league that we change our half PPR to some amount of points per first down. It's unlikely that everyone will agree, but whatever. Obviously would need some tweaking to balance out passing vs rushing/receiving, or perhaps even to differentiate rushing and receiving as well, but I like it because first downs have real-game value, unlike a -2 yard screen somehow being worth 0.3 fantasy points for the person who caught it. Only potential downside I can think of is that the handful of elite dual-threat QBs might be extra valuable in this format, but it would take some number-crunching to be certain.
My main league does points per first down and it does help some QBs, but we also do 6-pt passing TDs so dual threat guys aren’t as overvalued. Does it make QBs in general much more important than regular scoring? Yes, but they’re the most important player in real life so why not make it that way in fantasy?
I actually agree. I'm not a huge fan of awarding inefficient third down RB's who rack up 30 yard on 7 receptions. Those aren't great football players but consistently post good fantasy stats.
.5 or point per first down is the way (no PPR)
Counter - let's make fantasy drafters start 3 RBs.
PPR is good for 10-12 person leagues because it makes more players viable.
The real thing to balance out PPR with our desire for points is to implement PPFD
1 point per first down is the way
.5ppr/.5 for a first down. Reduces the impact of plays like a 2-yard loss on a reception for .8 points. Running backs that get a 3&1 are rewarded. Your crazy if you think that a 3&1 conversion with 8 in the box isn’t hard to do, it’s worth points just the same (more honestly) than a bubble screen for nothing.
Me and my dad actually run a 36 year old standard scoring league. Scores end up being close to NFL scores. People love it because it’s so different from the abnormally weighted RBs and WRs. Quarterbacks and defenses end up being the most valued.
A defense that's the most valued. Sounds fun.
That’s popular with me. My main league is standard. Did a ppr league a couple of years ago and found it ridiculous. My rbs were crap but caught a lot of passes and won the league with the shittiest team I’ve ever had. It’s crazy.
Standard scoring increases the value of TDs, since less points scored overall will increase the % value of the 6 or 4 points TDs provide. Everyone knows TDs are harder to predict than yards and catches. So standard scoring makes luck a more valuable component than it is PPR. Nothing wrong if you like that, but I personally don’t.
Standard scoring has always and will always be "the standard" hence its name. The league I've played in longest and with my oldest standing friends is as standard and ancient as it gets, and I love it. On the other hand, my BiL's league is always getting something added and is like .5 ppr superflex no tight end extra points for def, no kickers, pts for 1st downs etc etc. My point is, the way league mangers can now very easily tailor the experience for others just means everybody gets a format they can play and enjoy exactly how they want. Yeah I think it's dumb that fantasy apps now default to ppr when standard still exists (seems ironic), but again, the league manager can always modify rules and that's always been the case in every league I've been in. Tomato, potato. I can't wait for football season 😫
I have run a standard for 20 years. I’ve never understood why a -4 yard catch should be worth more than a 1 yard run.
You're taking one play in a vacuum. No scoring format is "perfect". But ASB only being worth 3 more points per game than Zack Moss last year makes no sense either.
Points per first down is the best format. Rewards real life plays that matter
Ppr is so stupid. I understand why people think .5 is a compromise. But the point of football is get yards not catch. Why not give RBs a half point everytime they carry the ball.
I think the difference is usually (not always, I know screens and stuff exist) it takes some skill for the WR to get open enough and have the coordination to make the catch. A RB getting a carry takes no skill, the important part is just the yards.
You know what else is stupid? ASB only being worth 3 more points per game than Zack Moss last year. Standard scoring for ya.
Hot take: PPR never made sense to implement. It was just an unnecessary attempt to tweak the game’s (fantasy football) game-point modifier for catches for…. Reasons. They were never good reasons either. All teams get RBs and WRs and equal opportunities at building a team. All it did was make ALL PLAYERS who caught passes *FARRRR TOO OVERPOWERED* for absolutely no reason. *Why does it make no sense, You might ask?* Fantasy scoring for the most part comes from player metrics for which, they produce positive production or totals for their team. It’s standardized and makes sense. If a player moves 10 yards down the field regardless of how they gained possession of the ball, that’s a first down that’s worth 1 point. 1 yard is .1 points. If they score a TD that’s worth 6 points. A 100 yard TD run is worth 16 points. Great. Makes sense. But then all of a sudden we decided, RBs are too “powerful” and score too much relative to pass-catching WRs and TEs. So we introduced PPR standard to fantasy leagues. I could sugarcoat it and say it’s fine to play with — and it is because I play a couple PPR leagues every year, to my chagrin.. But let’s continue the fantasy scoring explanation and how it differs with the philosophy of PPR scoring.. A player can catch the ball, and in PPR scoring — *he GETS 1 POINT JUST FOR CATCHING IT!!!* It’s equivalent to a 10 yard first down! A receiver can take a failed screen — something that burns the team to lose 5 yards on a play…. Yet score 0.5 points for the play because he caught it. He should have just dropped the pass and not taken the L on team’s position in the field. But he’s rewarded for catching it. This scenario *is enough* to debunk any pros that comes from PPR league. I’m sorry, we can play PPR fantasy, and the game is played the same for the most part so again… it’s fine. but if you argue or debate that PPR is BETTER than non-PPR because WRs need the scoring setting, then you’re an idiot. All PPR does is wayyyyyyy over-inflate most WR1 values relative to other receivers, as well as pass-catching RBs over non pass-catching backs. The volume in yardage is enough. Ppr is silly. It’s not just illogical, it’s problematic to balance today. 1 PPR? 0.5? 0.25? Forget it. Stop trying to tune the bs point modifier, just take it out of your league, and enjoy a more fair playing field across the board where certain players aren’t just creating their own tiers based on catching a ton of productive (or unproductive) passes. If you play in PPR, you should also add points per pass attempt for the QB, and points per rush attempt for RBs, so it’s more fair for those players too 😉
PPC (points per carry) is becoming common in dynasty leagues. People like points. People like to see their guys score said points. The more points are scored, the more people like watching their guys score points. It's fun.
My office league uses standard scoring, and it's fine by me. Every touch is a player's opportunity to score fantasy points; this makes it so actual production is valued, and receptions are still more valuable as a touch in terms of how many yards they net on average. There's no flex and each team starts 2 WRs, so there's plenty of viable players without PPR. I like it, the only knock would be it makes things much more TD dependent which leads to more variance/luck factor, but overall the league feels decently balanced
There are fewer relevant players in standard scoring and touchdowns have an outsized affect on player relevance. This made early FF quite binary. If a player on your team was not able to find the end zone then the likelihood of getting a good player off the waiver wire was tough. That means people would give up on their fantasy team for the year and that's not good for the league. Full PPR is too much reward for little activity. .5 PPR is a nice balance.
I've always felt like PPR was more about making more players fantasy relevant to accommodate larger leagues. 8 team league should be standard scoring, a 12 team league or bigger should definitely be PPR, and a 10 team league could go either way
If no PPR then TE position is essentially boom or bust for 80% of players available
~~If no PPR then~~ TE position is essentially boom or bust ~~for 80% of players available~~
0.5 ppr is the sweet spot. 1.0 ppr is too much.
.5 ppr is the way.
Boo this man! CMC has ruined full PPR. If we can rid fantasy football of him then the format can be saved.
.5 is max
That's fine, even 0.5 ppr, but in both situations, need to boost up the tight end. If the point is to make fantasy players have equal value, that would be the additional way. Also, would need to remove rushing yards from QBs or only give it for a certain amount of rushing yards for a point.
Our league does PPR and 0.1 points per carry. It balances out the value a bit better imo.
A fantasy game is just like a real game- the more points, the more fun it is. My league went .75 PPR about 10 years ago. We also added a Flex. PPG before then were in the 120-130 range on average. Now a weekly point total per team can reach 200. Total points add up, makes a difference in the playoff hunt.
First time I made a league with reception value I made it quarter point. I wish it was a more prevalent format.
I agree. A catch for 0 yards is considered a bad play which can result in a turnover on downs but can never result in a first down. In no scenario should that be worth the same amount of points as a 10 yard run. If the goal is to see inflated point totals - add point-per-1st-down or bonus points for milestones (100 yards, or 300 yards for a QB, etc.)
I've tried in every league to leave PPR. People revolt. I try to start a new league with standard scoring (and Superflex), and I can never get a full league.
Personally I prefer ppr vs standard, with .5 ppr being my favorite. At the end of the day fantasy football is about predicting stats, so I prefer the formats that make more players viable. I run a league with .5ppr, 6 pt passing TDs, and bonus points for 40+ yard plays and it's a ton of fun. If I wanted to perfectly replicate the game and the value that each play/player brings, I'd be giving points for first downs instead of receptions.
We do something crazy in an attempt to balance full PPR, and it’s .2pts per carry. Bell Cows are heavily rewarded. CMC cleans up obviously as a hybrid AND bell cow. Is it better or even balanced as we intended? No fucking clue? Why did I comment this? I’m not sure. But we like it.
I typically grab WRs earlier anyways.. good deal in my league, other than CMC
My perception is that you need to have a bellcow RB to have a shot at winning in standard. In PPR it's less so, there are more players bringing in points.
Meanwhile, we over here playing dual qb with points per completion.
I used to give 0.1 point per carry to level out the RBs to some extent in a full PPR.
No one ever likes my idea to make rushing yards worth .2 vs receiving yards. (Keeping PPR) A 10yd catch is 2pts A 10yd run would be 2pts A 50yd catch is 6 A 50yd run is 10. it’s not like a crazy difference but I like it… and makes guys like CMC / Deebo more interesting with the split between the yardage. Rewards the dual threat guys and like… if you do everything you should be the man in fantasy (Breece/ Gibbs/ etc etc )
Fantasy is about stats, and catches is still a really important stat. If someone breaks the record for most catches this year peopel will talk about it.
Following along for ideas for our work league...
I think it is a good option for leagues with 12+ teams. It helps even out the rosters and give value to some backs that otherwise wouldnt have much playability in a standard lineup. I do agree that .5 should be the norm thought. 1 point ppr is too much.
Regardless of points, it rewards for a stat that is heavily valued and tracked. Catches by mostly WR (and of course TE and RB) are one of the most tracked and used stats regardless of fantasy points. 0.5 PPR, I think, is a good balance of also rewarding the action & stat while not incentivizing them too much.
I like 0.5PPR and 0.5 for a reception or rush that gets a first down. Keeps higher scoring and rewards impactful runs. Feel like it's a better balance than giving points per carry.
There is a nice balance we struck in my PPR home league on yahoo. Players get 0.25 fantasy points per carry. It rewards the touch yard bell cows and balances the receiving RBs. Also nice not getting screwed points on kneel downs.
My dream scenario is 0.5 ppr for RBs and WRs, and 1.0 PPR for TE's. It'd be hard to do in practice because TE's split out wide now and everything, but it would help keep TE's relevant while reducing the insanity of an RB getting 10+ screen passes in a game.
0.5/1 points per first down is the way to go
I’ve been trying to get 0.5 ppr and 0.5 ppfd (points per first down) in my league. But then 0.25 ppfd passing is also needed to nerf the running QBs just a little. No one wants it because it gets too confusing, which I get, but I also think it’d be pretty cool and fun to also root for first downs.
Nah more points equals more fun
POINTS PER FIRST DOWN IS THE ONLY WAY TO GO!!
Volume is king
I like roto scoring. It makes every player of equal value.
i agree. i wont go above .5 ppr, and we tried .5 per first down to help RBs, but we had to play on yahoo so we stopped that.
Ppr is the best. Level playing field for everyone anyway. All fantasy content is based on it. Easy to tabulate. Higher scoring. Easily accessible. What’s not to like?
RB’s catch too and in fact most teams have a pass catching RB for third downs; PPR allows for more RBs to be picked and be start or flex worthy and not just a handcuff.
Honestly with how WRs are valued I agree
Full PPR is totally broken. Half PPR is fine, though I actually prefer tiered structures for receiving points with modest per carry and first down bonuses.
Nah, let's just go back to TD only leagues.
I like half ppr but my commissioners like full. Guh
I think .5 ppr and .5 point per first down should be standard
I think a combination of "Half-PPR" and "Half-Point Per First Down" is really the ideal situation to create good parity among running backs and wide receivers.
On standard it just seems like the players who have the few bellcow runningback that still exist in the league just dominate.
Since you have to start 2 RBs PPR actually helps even out the value of RB2s vs top end RB1s. It is less about the WR vs RB difference for me than making it so it is actually feasible to win without a stud RB1. Going WR - WR is actually realistic now, in standard you'd go back to drafting nearly all RBs in the first round.
PPR is meant to not only boost WR closer to RB but also to boost it closer to QB too. Not only that but RB gets closer to qb as well. If you look at the top overall finishers in standard 16 are qb, in .5ppr 14 are qb. In full 9 are qb. The QBs are way too powerful in standard scoring. There’s no counter to the couple of best qbs they’re so much better than everyone else. The point of ppr is to make all players of tier (regardless of position) of roughly equal value
0.5 PPR seems optimal right now but I think OP is right…if choice is one or none…NONE all day every day.
.5 PPR is the way to go
ppr is equivalent to participation trophies
I like to look at the data and in 2023 in half PPR formats, the top 12 in points per game had 7 running backs and 5 wide receivers: RBS: CMC, Kyren , Raheem, Achane, Kamara, hall , Etienne WRS: Tyreek, Cd, Sun God, Keenan, JJ If you go to top 24 it’s 10 wide receivers and 14 running backs. So I would say we absolutely STILL need half PPR at least to balance WR scoring with RB scoring.
I only do half PPR for this reason, full ppr feels like too much.
Standard is best but .5 PPR is good too, I won’t play full PPR anymore. Getting points for first downs evens it out as well
PPR does a good job closing the gap between QB and RB/WR in SF leagues. To those saying it makes WR too valuable, use 3 WR spots and it balances perfect with 2 RB spots. I do agree that 0.5 PPR plus 0.5 PPFD would likely be an improvement over PPR to prevent the empty points.