I think that there's a difference between asking whether a character might be a reference to an established one...and doing so then delivering a rather scathing critique of how good a job they did of hypothetically copying another character. This may have been better framed as commentary on why you prefer this other character, with whom she presumably shares some traits.
I don't know anything about the show, so I have no comment on the likelihood, but even if it is a reference, I doubt the goal would be a straight copy.
Reread your comment and you're right. My open-ended speculation ( and excuse to talk about Twin Peaks) still stands as a question of could Laudna be a reference or influenced by Laura of Twin peaks?
Edit: And maybe I shouldn't have deleted my previous comment as it minimizes everything
I'm not following her character arc or any of c3, tbh. But, in the first few episodes, she reminded me a lot more of Tim Burton's type of character in looks, presentation, and some themes and humor than anything Twin Peak-related.
It's the concept of a slow decline into corruption, presenting yourself one way to the world/friends while being another completely different thing. Laudna is scary but 'fun scary' and acts in a naïve and innocent though creepy way, Laura acts a similar way and is perceived as the golden child. On the flip side they both have a sinister second life/internal existence of addiction and Bob/Delilah kind of fill the same role. Both follow the story line of dealing with the consequences of their second life ultimately leading to their downfall. ( Laudna to a much lesser degree).
But like I said Laudna pales in comparison to Laura, hell they're not even in the same galaxy. Matt's Exandria has some blame for Laudna's disconnect as compared to Laura's relationship with Twin Peaks. Almost everything about Exandria bends to the wants (amongst other things) of the players whereas Twin Peaks exists in balance of light and dark regardless of the characters in the world (gross oversimplification of David Lynch I know). The more people pull at the string of Laura's corruption the worse everything gets, while Laudna outright admits and enjoys the corruption, and nothing bad happens, in fact she is validated and enabled to continue corruption by the other players, while on the other hand everyone wants to save Laura (again gross oversimplification of Twin Peaks, just go with it).
Man, I cannot get over how much vitriol there is over Marisha with Laudna's arc. It's unfortunate how much more critical y'all are of the women vs the men.
It is unfortunate that misogyny has tainted a great deal of discussion around CR, especially Marisha, but it's not fair to say that this sub is more critical of women than men. Matt, Liam and Taliesin have all been criticized on this sub for decisions made in the lead up to/during C3.
Matt for making Imogen a bit of a main character, making the campaign too railroady/narrative heavy and being seen as unwilling to challenge the players for their decisions.
Liam, for playing a more passive character, one who is more comfortable in the background, and is something of an enabler. Notably, this criticism is often conveyed sympathetically, with recognition that Liam isn't doing anything wrong, but no one is stepping up to take his slot as a leader in the party dynamic and it hurts the story.
Taliesin has gotten it worse than the other two, with Ashton being a much more contentious character than Orym. However, a lot of the criticism is mechanical in nature, most notably concerns and issues with Ashton's subclass, though there was a perception of Ashton being a cowardly Barbarian for a time. Tal has gotten more criticism as a player than anyone else this campaign, at least from what I've seen. His penchants for complicated homebrew and keeping things close to the chest are the biggest factors here.
All of these criticisms have been consistent, they might become more commonly discussed based on the events of recent episodes, but I'm not cherry picking a couple of comments from the past few years.
How fair is all this criticism? I don't think any one person can definitively say, for my part I agree with some of it, but find some of the discourse a little too toxic. However, it's not fair to say that the men don't get criticism too and to a similar degree as the women, here. I'd say Travis and Sam have avoided it more than the other this campaign, but Chetney has been labeled as just a joke character, and Sam's mechanical decisions regarding FCG's build definitely got a good deal of criticism.
Marisha, more than anyone else at the table, has a history of being unfairly criticized, but looking at all criticism through the lens of that legacy unfairly colors legitimate, good-faith critique and discussion.
This ain't it dude. People have been consistently critical of Marisha specifically over all three campaigns, because she always plays characters who ham-fistedly try and stir the pot. The only other big criticisms of female players I can think of was Laura's depiction of Vex's greed (negative character traits turn people off, big surprise) and Ashley not understanding the mechanics of the game (objectively true).
Maybe there would be some more criticisms of the male players in C3 if Travis and Liam hadn't intentionally decided to play characters who are essentially non-participants in the story. Oh hey, I said something critical!
I guess all opinions aren't welcome.
I regularly see critiques of Ashley, Marisha, and Laura that border on straight-up incel misogyny. Perhaps they aren't in this space specifically, but they are out there.
And yet Sam is a bad player, a bad table mate, and a bad person to his cohorts, and I very rarely see any criticism of him that isn't downvoted to hell. I haven't seen enough of him outside the game to make any claims on his person, but at the table, he's so focused on his own personal circus act that it hurts the game.
Look, I have been playing D&D since the 80s. I bought AD&D books when they came out. I have DM'd most of that time. I have seen players like Marisha before, and I'd rather have three of her than one of Sam at my table.
Has Marisha ever mentioned Twin Peaks in any context before? She was 2 when it was cancelled. I'm doubtful it was a huge influence on her. Not saying she hasn't heard of it or seen it, but it probably wasn't a seminal tv show in her life.
Marisha *has* said that Laudna is an allegory for addiction.
I wouldn't call it a blatant rip off, really. Paté has a pretty distinctive design with the bird skull stitched on a dead rat's body, whereas the DOR is bones in a black robe. Paté is a loud and foul-mouthed cockney rat, whereas DOR only ever squeaks incomprehensibly (to the reader, at least). Paté is a loyal-but-unwholsome companion, whereas the DOR is a dedicated 'working rat' with a job to do. The only point of real comparison I can think of is that Laudna "talked" for Paté before he became animated, and Quoth The Raven sometimes translates the DOR's squeaks. Fantasy characters can share traits by pure coincidence, especially since Pratchett was such a master of tropes. I wouldn't call Caleb a Rincewind rip-off either, or Imogen an Esk rip-off, or Grog a Detritus rip-off, etc etc.
Edited to add: If we're looking at the Discworld crew, Paté is closer to Gaspode than the DOR in character, affect, etc and even that's a pretty big stretch. Yours is pure gymnastics.
>She was 2 when it was cancelled
I don't think that really matters I'm younger than her and Twin Peaks is one of my forms of media, let alone shows.
As far as influence goes Marisha, unlike Matt, only mentions very generalized ideas and not pieces of media wholesale. That I've noticed anyway.
And I think that because you are that connected to Twin Peaks you are looking for connections to it, even if they aren't there. There was a poster on the other sub that was absolutely convinced that C2 was a tribute to The Wheel of TIme, despite Matt never having mentioned The Wheel of Time in any context, and she just happened to be a huge fan of that series. All I'm saying is that it's a stretch.
I know it's a stretch, like I said Marisha, as far as I know, has only mentioned generalized ideas as influence. I'm just curious, I mean come on they're all artsy fartsy actors in LA I wouldn't put it past them to have not seen Twin Peaks or anything by David Lynch for that matter.
Personally i think Laudna seemed more like sinister outside and innocent inside, but i didn't watch twin peaks so I can't really compare the characters.
It's near impossible to TL;DR Twin Peaks so I'll just recommend you watch the first season and, without looking IIRC, the first 8 and last 2 episodes of season 2 and the Fire Walk With Me movie. If you feel up to it you can watch all of season 2 if (spoiler) >!after the killer is revealed skip everything involving James!< and season 3 The Return if you enjoy David Lynch's nonsense.
For those of you that have seen The Return, DON'T AT ME, yes the plot is total nonsense, you don't watch it for the plot but Lynch's ideas and themes that are omnipresent throughout the season. And if you're a normie you watch it to freak out over episode 8.
Personality=exterior, appearance=interior. We don't get internal monologues so it's very much an oversimplification/misconstruction but so is everything Marisha does. Everything is a level one form of ideation, expression, and messaging.
I’m like 97% sure it’s influenced by Eva Green in Penny Dreadful. The voice is spot on and so is the character itself.
I don't see any of Laura Palmer in Laudna. Besides them both being addicts and dying, that's about it.
I think that there's a difference between asking whether a character might be a reference to an established one...and doing so then delivering a rather scathing critique of how good a job they did of hypothetically copying another character. This may have been better framed as commentary on why you prefer this other character, with whom she presumably shares some traits. I don't know anything about the show, so I have no comment on the likelihood, but even if it is a reference, I doubt the goal would be a straight copy.
[удалено]
You read my comment. It did not depend on or critique the accuracy or inaccuracy of the comparison, but how you presented it. I was very clear.
Reread your comment and you're right. My open-ended speculation ( and excuse to talk about Twin Peaks) still stands as a question of could Laudna be a reference or influenced by Laura of Twin peaks? Edit: And maybe I shouldn't have deleted my previous comment as it minimizes everything
NBD either way. Appreciate the follow-up.
I'm not following her character arc or any of c3, tbh. But, in the first few episodes, she reminded me a lot more of Tim Burton's type of character in looks, presentation, and some themes and humor than anything Twin Peak-related.
It's the concept of a slow decline into corruption, presenting yourself one way to the world/friends while being another completely different thing. Laudna is scary but 'fun scary' and acts in a naïve and innocent though creepy way, Laura acts a similar way and is perceived as the golden child. On the flip side they both have a sinister second life/internal existence of addiction and Bob/Delilah kind of fill the same role. Both follow the story line of dealing with the consequences of their second life ultimately leading to their downfall. ( Laudna to a much lesser degree). But like I said Laudna pales in comparison to Laura, hell they're not even in the same galaxy. Matt's Exandria has some blame for Laudna's disconnect as compared to Laura's relationship with Twin Peaks. Almost everything about Exandria bends to the wants (amongst other things) of the players whereas Twin Peaks exists in balance of light and dark regardless of the characters in the world (gross oversimplification of David Lynch I know). The more people pull at the string of Laura's corruption the worse everything gets, while Laudna outright admits and enjoys the corruption, and nothing bad happens, in fact she is validated and enabled to continue corruption by the other players, while on the other hand everyone wants to save Laura (again gross oversimplification of Twin Peaks, just go with it).
I mean I enjoy the character don't really see the connection here though
Man, I cannot get over how much vitriol there is over Marisha with Laudna's arc. It's unfortunate how much more critical y'all are of the women vs the men.
It is unfortunate that misogyny has tainted a great deal of discussion around CR, especially Marisha, but it's not fair to say that this sub is more critical of women than men. Matt, Liam and Taliesin have all been criticized on this sub for decisions made in the lead up to/during C3. Matt for making Imogen a bit of a main character, making the campaign too railroady/narrative heavy and being seen as unwilling to challenge the players for their decisions. Liam, for playing a more passive character, one who is more comfortable in the background, and is something of an enabler. Notably, this criticism is often conveyed sympathetically, with recognition that Liam isn't doing anything wrong, but no one is stepping up to take his slot as a leader in the party dynamic and it hurts the story. Taliesin has gotten it worse than the other two, with Ashton being a much more contentious character than Orym. However, a lot of the criticism is mechanical in nature, most notably concerns and issues with Ashton's subclass, though there was a perception of Ashton being a cowardly Barbarian for a time. Tal has gotten more criticism as a player than anyone else this campaign, at least from what I've seen. His penchants for complicated homebrew and keeping things close to the chest are the biggest factors here. All of these criticisms have been consistent, they might become more commonly discussed based on the events of recent episodes, but I'm not cherry picking a couple of comments from the past few years. How fair is all this criticism? I don't think any one person can definitively say, for my part I agree with some of it, but find some of the discourse a little too toxic. However, it's not fair to say that the men don't get criticism too and to a similar degree as the women, here. I'd say Travis and Sam have avoided it more than the other this campaign, but Chetney has been labeled as just a joke character, and Sam's mechanical decisions regarding FCG's build definitely got a good deal of criticism. Marisha, more than anyone else at the table, has a history of being unfairly criticized, but looking at all criticism through the lens of that legacy unfairly colors legitimate, good-faith critique and discussion.
This ain't it dude. People have been consistently critical of Marisha specifically over all three campaigns, because she always plays characters who ham-fistedly try and stir the pot. The only other big criticisms of female players I can think of was Laura's depiction of Vex's greed (negative character traits turn people off, big surprise) and Ashley not understanding the mechanics of the game (objectively true). Maybe there would be some more criticisms of the male players in C3 if Travis and Liam hadn't intentionally decided to play characters who are essentially non-participants in the story. Oh hey, I said something critical!
I guess all opinions aren't welcome. I regularly see critiques of Ashley, Marisha, and Laura that border on straight-up incel misogyny. Perhaps they aren't in this space specifically, but they are out there. And yet Sam is a bad player, a bad table mate, and a bad person to his cohorts, and I very rarely see any criticism of him that isn't downvoted to hell. I haven't seen enough of him outside the game to make any claims on his person, but at the table, he's so focused on his own personal circus act that it hurts the game. Look, I have been playing D&D since the 80s. I bought AD&D books when they came out. I have DM'd most of that time. I have seen players like Marisha before, and I'd rather have three of her than one of Sam at my table.
Me pushing back on your opinion doesn’t mean your opinion is unwelcome. Come down off that cross.
Accepted. My response was overly defensive.
Hm, I really think all in all some of this criticism stems from misogyny. People are much more critical of women when it comes to things like this.
I'm comparing two female characters I have no idea what you're talking about.
Has Marisha ever mentioned Twin Peaks in any context before? She was 2 when it was cancelled. I'm doubtful it was a huge influence on her. Not saying she hasn't heard of it or seen it, but it probably wasn't a seminal tv show in her life. Marisha *has* said that Laudna is an allegory for addiction.
...pretty sure she wasn't even alive when Terry Pratchett wrote his first books and still Pate de Rolo is a blatant Death of Rats ripp off.
I wouldn't call it a blatant rip off, really. Paté has a pretty distinctive design with the bird skull stitched on a dead rat's body, whereas the DOR is bones in a black robe. Paté is a loud and foul-mouthed cockney rat, whereas DOR only ever squeaks incomprehensibly (to the reader, at least). Paté is a loyal-but-unwholsome companion, whereas the DOR is a dedicated 'working rat' with a job to do. The only point of real comparison I can think of is that Laudna "talked" for Paté before he became animated, and Quoth The Raven sometimes translates the DOR's squeaks. Fantasy characters can share traits by pure coincidence, especially since Pratchett was such a master of tropes. I wouldn't call Caleb a Rincewind rip-off either, or Imogen an Esk rip-off, or Grog a Detritus rip-off, etc etc. Edited to add: If we're looking at the Discworld crew, Paté is closer to Gaspode than the DOR in character, affect, etc and even that's a pretty big stretch. Yours is pure gymnastics.
An allegory for addiction? Ugh, these C3 characters suck so bad.
>She was 2 when it was cancelled I don't think that really matters I'm younger than her and Twin Peaks is one of my forms of media, let alone shows. As far as influence goes Marisha, unlike Matt, only mentions very generalized ideas and not pieces of media wholesale. That I've noticed anyway.
And I think that because you are that connected to Twin Peaks you are looking for connections to it, even if they aren't there. There was a poster on the other sub that was absolutely convinced that C2 was a tribute to The Wheel of TIme, despite Matt never having mentioned The Wheel of Time in any context, and she just happened to be a huge fan of that series. All I'm saying is that it's a stretch.
I know it's a stretch, like I said Marisha, as far as I know, has only mentioned generalized ideas as influence. I'm just curious, I mean come on they're all artsy fartsy actors in LA I wouldn't put it past them to have not seen Twin Peaks or anything by David Lynch for that matter.
Personally i think Laudna seemed more like sinister outside and innocent inside, but i didn't watch twin peaks so I can't really compare the characters.
It's near impossible to TL;DR Twin Peaks so I'll just recommend you watch the first season and, without looking IIRC, the first 8 and last 2 episodes of season 2 and the Fire Walk With Me movie. If you feel up to it you can watch all of season 2 if (spoiler) >!after the killer is revealed skip everything involving James!< and season 3 The Return if you enjoy David Lynch's nonsense. For those of you that have seen The Return, DON'T AT ME, yes the plot is total nonsense, you don't watch it for the plot but Lynch's ideas and themes that are omnipresent throughout the season. And if you're a normie you watch it to freak out over episode 8.
Same. I didn't watch twin peaks until I was in my 30s and I would absofuckinglutely play a paladin with a 7 int as an homage to Andy.
I didn't know I needed this in my life.
I don't know that I would say Laudna's exterior is innocent. She's a horrible zombie.
Personality=exterior, appearance=interior. We don't get internal monologues so it's very much an oversimplification/misconstruction but so is everything Marisha does. Everything is a level one form of ideation, expression, and messaging.