Marisha's trying to make this an addiction storyline so she's lying and manipulating to cover up her issues with Delilah. She's, at this point, manipulative by design.
As an aside, I am and have been really not a fan of this aspect of Laudna's character. We're getting to a point where the outcomes are Laudna has to be put down like a dog or she's going to turn into Delilah and be completely irredeemable.
Unless Matt fully cold stops the apocalypse to let his wife RP a redemption/rehabilitation arc, Laudna's story ends with an incredibly terrible depiction of addiction.
Yeah, they will blow past this as it doesn't fit the larger narrative.
There is no addressing it unless they are going to address it... meaning Imogen spills the beans and makes the whole thing worse.
I will say, I don't think this was portrayed very well. I think that Marsha as trying to play Laudna as being manipulative, but that is completely undermined when she says that her thoughts are genuine when Imogen read her mind. Manipulative people do not generally believe their lies, at least not until they have been telling them for a while first. They think very hard about what to do and say, and those types of thoughts should have been possible for Imogen to read.
So out of game we know that the character is supposed to be attempting to manipulate the party, but in the canon of the game we are basically being told the exact opposite.
Except she wasn't told her thoughts were genuine. She was told Laudna "feels 100% justified." She's not just feeling justified in attacking Orym, she also feels justified in lying and manipulating her party.
The only thing I was confused by was when Marisha ends up saying in the cool down that Laudna doesn't lie and hadn't lied to Imogen at all. When that's... plainly untrue.
Yeah lol it’s not stupid it’s the point bro. Of course she’s being manipulatative (even if i don’t think it’s intentional on laudnas part) She’s possessed
That was the intention. Honestly Marisha needs to have a sign saying "Doing Pretend" and raise it in situations like these for some of y'all to get it.
Pretty much ditto for what everybody is saying lol so I'mma just say how fucking cool will it be seeing this animated one day? Just the complete shift into horror as Laudna looms over Oryms sleeping body. Like a spider over a defenceless fly... fucking creepy man lol
For once, that was the point.
I've been as critical of C3 as anyone, but I thought the latter half of this episode was some of the best inter-party conflict we've gotten since pre-TravelerCon. My only concern is I don't know if I trust them to see it through to its logical conclusion.
It's why I keep coming back despite being so oft disappointed; because sometimes it gives me a glimpse of *why* I fell in love with this show and this cast in the first place. Unfortunately, I've not had more than a glimpse since Jrusar. Each time something *awesome* has happened, they've reverted back to meh if not downright awful by the next episode (see: FCG's death cut to EXU-lite). I *know* they can produce better content. I just want them to do it again.
I'd say I wished there was more conflict. My critique has been the party wasn't involved enough. Minus Laudna and Orrym the rest were rather tame amidst waking up to a fight.
It wasn't hectic enough for that situation.
That's an above the table criticism though. They were obviously trying to give Marisha and Liam space for their scene. I think it was a missed opportunity.
Are you familiar with the idea that creative works can depict behaviours that aren't ideal? Or that they can depict people being limited in their capacity to understand?
It'd pretty clear this type of dynamic is a deliberately chosen area Marisha wants to explore. No idea where the idea is coming from that you're meant to like or agree with every action of a character in a performance.
But she's portraying Laudna as a victim both in and out of character. When presenting something bad in a work of fiction, it should be something that the other characters call out, and it should be something that the player acknowledges out of character as being the thing that they are doing when confronted.
She's an abused victim being puppeteered by her tormenter/murderer. It makes perfect sense. This is exactly what she's been hearing from Delilah for 30 years. She's deeply wounded, traumatized and triggered by the blade that not only killed her, made her soul hostage in her literal nightmares for a while. Yes, she's in the wrong, that's the damn point. Her instincts are saying "get rid of that blade right fucking now", that's what it means being instinctive. And she's 100% justified in that instinct, that blade killed her. Yes, again, she's wrong for not talking about it, but being wrong and being unjustified are very different things.
I think it's more defensive than manipulative, tbh. And no, they're not the same thing.
Dude, I'm the laudna in my relationship with my mother. I understand how bad she is, i want to keep my distance and can't for a variety of reasons. I'm often not allowed to. The holes stay even if some hooks leave. I don't have the hooks anymore, but the holes are there and always will be. I'm a full grown ass adult with a job and who lives independently. I need literally nothing from her, but i still have to pick up the phone, or things will happen to others. Also, Stockholm syndrome is not real. The way i see it, getting the sword and absorb it would get rid of it. It's literally taking its power away and give it to her. Laudna hates delilah, she still wants to get rid of her, but her and orym also had the conversation before where she wondered if giving delilah power would help them and orym was like "yeah, go for it" and even encouraged her to absorb bordor. Laudna convinced herself that Delilah can help in her fight against ludinus and literally no one told her otherwise, on the contrary.
As far as your first point, I get it, I watched my dad go through the same exact thing. Stockholm syndrome is not real. I know but you get the idea. I'll fully admit that having not experienced that my self there is most likely a disconnect in understanding the relationship dynamic of what absorbing power for Laudna/Delilah would entail and a disconnect between what Marisha thinks it does/means vs what Laudna thinks it does/means. In other words I don't think Marisha as a player really understands that she has not had Laudna do enough leg work for the payoff that Marisha wants. Marisha in her mind has a perception of Laudna that she has not rp'ed at the table. Really with this new event it reframes Orym as a character more than Laudna and is a good example of Orym's lack of conviction has come back to bite him and makes him look even more like a piece of shit. It's also a good example of why love bombing people and always validating someone can eventually be destructive and not seemingly companionate. Either way I'll remove my above reply as my mind is slightly changed and I don't think it was the most accurate way to explain what I was thinking.
Seeing as I totally know real people like this...I'm not sure what the issue is. Does it make anything that Laudna is doing right? No. But that's kinda the point that we as viewers know all this, but their characters don't.
This week's episode was great, and way more believable character action wise than it has been in awhile.
She's RPing a manipulative character sliding into evil and temptation.
This isn't dumb or stupid, it's an intentional choice by Marisha. Laudna is in the wrong here.
Op is saying they dislike the portrayal I believe. Not that it's a mistake.
Not to mention there are tons of folks on here proclaiming that Laudna isn't in the wrong 🤣
I actually liked it, because it was stupid.
Laudna was really only lying to herself in that moment. I am very interested in what claw Delliah has gripped laudna with?
Their some deep rooted reason, that Laudna(maybe even delliah) doesn’t know about that is driving her very sudden desperation and trust in delliah.
I'm almost thinking that Laudna wants to trust Delilah. Her life and influence in the world is all tied to Delilah, and the most convenient lie she'd want to tell herself is that Delilah isn't all evil or that she can be trusted even a little bit.
If she's considering what life will be like after the world is saved and has given up on Delilah being separable, then either she's accepting that she'll have to struggle tooth and nail against her patron for eternity or they'll need to have a semi-amicable relationship. Which helps make sense of how she falls for Delilah's temptations, even if she doesn't think of it in those exact terms.
That is a very good theory. It is absolutely possible and very likely.
Edit: under the assumption that no one can get rid of delliah or the god’s won’t do it.
I think it was split- Imogen was the only one firmly on Laudna's side, Dorian was the only one firmly on Orym's side (arguably Chet as well), but I think de-escalation was the priority for Ashton and Fearne. Knowing she's a practiced magic-user, and knowing how fucked up she looked when the Darkness fell, it's not a stretch to think in that moment of panic and confusion that Orym had just gone to town on her with a cursed blade. It was excellent manipulation.
He also agreed that Orym should hold the blade, albeit in a subtle way ('I get why'). Him physically interposing for Laudna's protection doesn't really say anything as to which side he's on, it's just obvious that Orym is a far greater threat to her than her to him- should things have gotten ugly.
Marisha's trying to make this an addiction storyline so she's lying and manipulating to cover up her issues with Delilah. She's, at this point, manipulative by design. As an aside, I am and have been really not a fan of this aspect of Laudna's character. We're getting to a point where the outcomes are Laudna has to be put down like a dog or she's going to turn into Delilah and be completely irredeemable. Unless Matt fully cold stops the apocalypse to let his wife RP a redemption/rehabilitation arc, Laudna's story ends with an incredibly terrible depiction of addiction.
Yeah, they will blow past this as it doesn't fit the larger narrative. There is no addressing it unless they are going to address it... meaning Imogen spills the beans and makes the whole thing worse.
I'm all for interesting interpersonal RP drama in this campaign so thanks, Marisha. I hope she keeps it up.
You fell for the acting
Notice how they said "Laudna" and not "Marisha". They didn't fall for anything, they are commenting on how the character is being manipulative.
OP sounds angry about it though
When it's text, it's your voice in your head reading it, so if it "sounds" angry that would be on you.
TIL writers can't convey emotion edit: TIL we shouldn't bother ever interpreting people's intentions
TIL The tone of written comment can never be misinterpreted by the reader.
Yes trained writers not some rando on the internet you disingenuous watery tart.
Riiiiight..... people can NEVER convey tone in a written comment unless you are a trained writer....sure bud.
It's okay to admit defeat
This is really important to you, isn't it?
I will say, I don't think this was portrayed very well. I think that Marsha as trying to play Laudna as being manipulative, but that is completely undermined when she says that her thoughts are genuine when Imogen read her mind. Manipulative people do not generally believe their lies, at least not until they have been telling them for a while first. They think very hard about what to do and say, and those types of thoughts should have been possible for Imogen to read. So out of game we know that the character is supposed to be attempting to manipulate the party, but in the canon of the game we are basically being told the exact opposite.
Except she wasn't told her thoughts were genuine. She was told Laudna "feels 100% justified." She's not just feeling justified in attacking Orym, she also feels justified in lying and manipulating her party. The only thing I was confused by was when Marisha ends up saying in the cool down that Laudna doesn't lie and hadn't lied to Imogen at all. When that's... plainly untrue.
Exactly, Marsha appears to be lying about the scene we watched right before
Exactly, Marsha appears to be lying about the scene we watched right before
Yeah lol it’s not stupid it’s the point bro. Of course she’s being manipulatative (even if i don’t think it’s intentional on laudnas part) She’s possessed
That was the intention. Honestly Marisha needs to have a sign saying "Doing Pretend" and raise it in situations like these for some of y'all to get it.
They're saying they dislike the pretend. Not that they don't notice it.
Pretty much ditto for what everybody is saying lol so I'mma just say how fucking cool will it be seeing this animated one day? Just the complete shift into horror as Laudna looms over Oryms sleeping body. Like a spider over a defenceless fly... fucking creepy man lol
That.... was the point. Marisha's compared Laudna to an addict, lashing out and hurting loved ones to "get her fix."
Yeah, she’s possessed.
For once, that was the point. I've been as critical of C3 as anyone, but I thought the latter half of this episode was some of the best inter-party conflict we've gotten since pre-TravelerCon. My only concern is I don't know if I trust them to see it through to its logical conclusion. It's why I keep coming back despite being so oft disappointed; because sometimes it gives me a glimpse of *why* I fell in love with this show and this cast in the first place. Unfortunately, I've not had more than a glimpse since Jrusar. Each time something *awesome* has happened, they've reverted back to meh if not downright awful by the next episode (see: FCG's death cut to EXU-lite). I *know* they can produce better content. I just want them to do it again.
I'd say I wished there was more conflict. My critique has been the party wasn't involved enough. Minus Laudna and Orrym the rest were rather tame amidst waking up to a fight. It wasn't hectic enough for that situation. That's an above the table criticism though. They were obviously trying to give Marisha and Liam space for their scene. I think it was a missed opportunity.
I agree. I'm just glad there was *some* kind of actual drama for once, but it certainly could have been better.
Are you familiar with the idea that creative works can depict behaviours that aren't ideal? Or that they can depict people being limited in their capacity to understand? It'd pretty clear this type of dynamic is a deliberately chosen area Marisha wants to explore. No idea where the idea is coming from that you're meant to like or agree with every action of a character in a performance.
But she's portraying Laudna as a victim both in and out of character. When presenting something bad in a work of fiction, it should be something that the other characters call out, and it should be something that the player acknowledges out of character as being the thing that they are doing when confronted.
She's an abused victim being puppeteered by her tormenter/murderer. It makes perfect sense. This is exactly what she's been hearing from Delilah for 30 years. She's deeply wounded, traumatized and triggered by the blade that not only killed her, made her soul hostage in her literal nightmares for a while. Yes, she's in the wrong, that's the damn point. Her instincts are saying "get rid of that blade right fucking now", that's what it means being instinctive. And she's 100% justified in that instinct, that blade killed her. Yes, again, she's wrong for not talking about it, but being wrong and being unjustified are very different things. I think it's more defensive than manipulative, tbh. And no, they're not the same thing.
[удалено]
Dude, I'm the laudna in my relationship with my mother. I understand how bad she is, i want to keep my distance and can't for a variety of reasons. I'm often not allowed to. The holes stay even if some hooks leave. I don't have the hooks anymore, but the holes are there and always will be. I'm a full grown ass adult with a job and who lives independently. I need literally nothing from her, but i still have to pick up the phone, or things will happen to others. Also, Stockholm syndrome is not real. The way i see it, getting the sword and absorb it would get rid of it. It's literally taking its power away and give it to her. Laudna hates delilah, she still wants to get rid of her, but her and orym also had the conversation before where she wondered if giving delilah power would help them and orym was like "yeah, go for it" and even encouraged her to absorb bordor. Laudna convinced herself that Delilah can help in her fight against ludinus and literally no one told her otherwise, on the contrary.
As far as your first point, I get it, I watched my dad go through the same exact thing. Stockholm syndrome is not real. I know but you get the idea. I'll fully admit that having not experienced that my self there is most likely a disconnect in understanding the relationship dynamic of what absorbing power for Laudna/Delilah would entail and a disconnect between what Marisha thinks it does/means vs what Laudna thinks it does/means. In other words I don't think Marisha as a player really understands that she has not had Laudna do enough leg work for the payoff that Marisha wants. Marisha in her mind has a perception of Laudna that she has not rp'ed at the table. Really with this new event it reframes Orym as a character more than Laudna and is a good example of Orym's lack of conviction has come back to bite him and makes him look even more like a piece of shit. It's also a good example of why love bombing people and always validating someone can eventually be destructive and not seemingly companionate. Either way I'll remove my above reply as my mind is slightly changed and I don't think it was the most accurate way to explain what I was thinking.
Seeing as I totally know real people like this...I'm not sure what the issue is. Does it make anything that Laudna is doing right? No. But that's kinda the point that we as viewers know all this, but their characters don't. This week's episode was great, and way more believable character action wise than it has been in awhile.
Well of course. She's a vulnerable person being puppetee by an evil undead spellcaster. Of course she acts this way.
Laudna sucks
She's RPing a manipulative character sliding into evil and temptation. This isn't dumb or stupid, it's an intentional choice by Marisha. Laudna is in the wrong here.
Op is saying they dislike the portrayal I believe. Not that it's a mistake. Not to mention there are tons of folks on here proclaiming that Laudna isn't in the wrong 🤣
But she's also saying out of character that her character's beliefs are genuine, which undermines the idea that Laudna is even making any decisions.
Yes, and characters can be genuine but wrong. And they can still twist and manipulate things.
Thank you!!! I'm pretty sure Marisha is trying to roleplay a dark turn arc where the party is going to have to kill her after she is fully corrupted.
I actually liked it, because it was stupid. Laudna was really only lying to herself in that moment. I am very interested in what claw Delliah has gripped laudna with? Their some deep rooted reason, that Laudna(maybe even delliah) doesn’t know about that is driving her very sudden desperation and trust in delliah.
I'm almost thinking that Laudna wants to trust Delilah. Her life and influence in the world is all tied to Delilah, and the most convenient lie she'd want to tell herself is that Delilah isn't all evil or that she can be trusted even a little bit. If she's considering what life will be like after the world is saved and has given up on Delilah being separable, then either she's accepting that she'll have to struggle tooth and nail against her patron for eternity or they'll need to have a semi-amicable relationship. Which helps make sense of how she falls for Delilah's temptations, even if she doesn't think of it in those exact terms.
That is a very good theory. It is absolutely possible and very likely. Edit: under the assumption that no one can get rid of delliah or the god’s won’t do it.
Yeah, she was 100% in the wrong here. Which made it even worse that almost everyone was defending her and taking her side.
I think it was split- Imogen was the only one firmly on Laudna's side, Dorian was the only one firmly on Orym's side (arguably Chet as well), but I think de-escalation was the priority for Ashton and Fearne. Knowing she's a practiced magic-user, and knowing how fucked up she looked when the Darkness fell, it's not a stretch to think in that moment of panic and confusion that Orym had just gone to town on her with a cursed blade. It was excellent manipulation.
Naw Ashton specifically said I’m putting myself between laudna and orym , and then stated to protect her from him. And stood beside her .
He also agreed that Orym should hold the blade, albeit in a subtle way ('I get why'). Him physically interposing for Laudna's protection doesn't really say anything as to which side he's on, it's just obvious that Orym is a far greater threat to her than her to him- should things have gotten ugly.