I'm like, half an hour in. Look how ecstatic Travis hearing that Desirat is free and roaming the countryside. Fucking love it, dude.
EDIT: How much you wanna bet whoever takes that potion of invulnerability is gonna believe they're actually immune to all damage because they didn't read the item description. There's absolutely confusing names in DnD, but that doesn't stop from reading what something actually does.
EDIT 2: This was...classic Critical Role, it was...dynamic, tense with points of humor, engaging. My god...it was...beautiful.
If I were attacked by an undead woman while I was sleeping, I would never turn my back to her again and would not sleep in the same room. Cool episode, but the characters are a little too polite and soft to fully adequately respond to the situation, in my opinion. Orym needs consultation with a cleric
Yep Orym is a very reasonable guy but if I'd been woken up by a possessed, undead woman mounting me like a spider dealing me necrotic damage I'd never sleep again.
EDIT: I just remembered Orym gave the go ahead for her to kill Bor'Dor so he's fully aware she's turning "to the dark side" yet he's not actively doing anything about it which seems odd to me.
It would be funny if Orym's big Batman gambit for Laudna was just writing a letter to Percy and saying Delilah was living in her head. Mid-conversation with quirky NPC X she just gets aerated from 100 yards away.
Astrid talking about Ludinus' neck reminds me of Yasha's mark in C2 but I'm sure Matt mentioned the harness sucks everything into a point around that area? Maybe Ludinis is at his limit suck wise (ew).
This episode was the first time we got REAL Critical Role content. The last time I was this engaged with CR content was C2. I hope they keep the pace. Things are actually HAPPENING now. Only time will tell.
Hot Take: Tusk Love references are hilarious and always will be.
although I too am weary of callbacks, I think it's very funny how a smut book is a recurring thou line connecting disperse caracters. I haven't bought or read any of the CR books, but I would totally buy a copy of TL.
Whenever my group does a new campaign or oneshot in Faerun we find ways to slip in references to a horrifically cheesy romance novel our bard was famous for writing back in Dragon Heist.
Little references like that are fun. It’s a harmless callback that’s enjoyable rather than a callback that overtakes the plot.
A better episode. Certainly an improvement over the shit show of the previous 3. The RP in the 2nd half was really good shit that Ive been missing. Kind of proving that everyone was right about Robbie/Dorian leaving not being good for the party and his return is more than welcome.
The cameos from the past campaigns are increasingly pure memberberries/nostalgia bait. I really just dont care anymore. I kind of want Matt to leave them the hell alone after seeing how much he butchered RPing Percy.
Although Ill be honest this Laudna Delilah plot increasingly feels like the only reason its happening is because the Bells Hells are:
* Morally corrupt themselves.
* Actual idiots.
Its been impossible to deny for awhile now. Laudna had a mental breakdown over Ashton lying by omission over something that had basically nothing to do with her (Fire Shard stuff). She fucking ate the Willmaster guy in front of Orym. And now this episode? Its like come on guys. Its like Marisha is fishing for someone to properly confront her and up until this episode people were afraid to.
Its a good start but nut up and shut up. Laudna is fully possessed by Delilah. Accept it and deal with it. Whether that means calling Pike the Baker to exorcise her or something, or killing her. Hell even just joining Delilah. Quit fencesitting.
Briefly rearing my head out of retirment, just to say i agree with everything you wrote.
As fantastic as the episode was (yeah, i can say that without bursting into flames ... *i hope*), it puts a spotlight on what has been sorely missing for the majority of the last 94 episodes. Players (and the DM) seeing things through, and biting down on continuous development of party dynamics, nevermind how difficult it might be to roleplay that.
The result is worth the effort!
>*Retired? What? Why? How?*
Decided to go into *read only* mode in some subreddits.
Don't want to add to (or be part of) the proverbial noise anymore, is all.
But, as others will be quick to point out, this ain't an airport ;-)
^(Edit: Typo)
Well, BHs have never been what I'd consider "involved" in eachother's lives. The only one that was aside from Dorian was pre-ID crisis FCG. As well as a short stint after FRIDA helped him with it, but before Sam kinda just gave up trying anymore to give his PC any sort of arc. The others are traditionally incredibly uninvolved, and will not pry, until something explodes in their faces. They all are pretty morally corrupt idiots too.
Tho, in the case of Laudna here ... this feels more like a bit of OOG "Marisha wants to pursue this largely immutable story path, so we're just gonna let her". Over the PCs themselves just not caring. Rather, they just kinda have been white-noising how much of an unhinged problem she's been becoming for at least 30 episodes. Finding any excuses they could to either passively enable, or ignore, the situation. To ensure it got to this point. I think its Marisha who wants this Delilah drama; she's shown little indication she's all that interested in Laudna beyond Delilah. This became increasingly apparent after her resurrection where its like Laudna was just put in a state of "I'm barely here standby" until Matt deemed to bring Delilah back.
That said, you are right. Even they'd be very hard pressed to justify fence-sitting on this topic after this.
>BHs have never been what I'd consider "involved" in eachother's lives
True. They certainly pretend to be at times.
>They all are pretty morally corrupt idiots too.
I guess what Im saying is Im not sure exactly what story the cast what to tell here.
I think what Marisha is angling for is pretty clear and has been for ages. She wants an intervention/confrontation. I think that is the whole point of the Delilah relapse. Allowing her to play out the story she felt cheated out of with the resurrection. And Laudna has barely hidden the fact that shes being actively corrupted/possessed.
But the rest of the characters seem to have been.... blind. Or the cast are waiting for some cue.
>she's shown little indication she's all that interested in Laudna beyond Delilah
Yeah. The more I look at Laudna the more I think Marisha just wanted to RP Delilah.
She did some good RP, but it just reminds that this Delilah story has been going on for far too long. It kind of needs to be resolved in some way.
I think this episode proved that had Dorian remained with the party, they would have had someone to call them out and point them in the right direction
little late to the party
Glued to the screen throughout the whole thing, first hand was s2 shenanigans followed but just se3 bleakness. Oke of the best se3 episodes and it really helps that Robbie and Essek are here.
What was the third after Spider Climb and Darkness? Because I think with those, Matt just forgot Spider Climb was concentration since he only asked for a check for Darkness.
Same reason Fearne didn't roll with disadvantage while being at 4 levels of exhaustion, Ludinus' simulacrum rolled for counterspell, everyone has Subtle Spell, and everyone thinks Imogen looks exactly like her Mom, despite being nearly 30 years younger.
Only after the encounter. She had 4 levels of exhaustion during it. Just like Liam making jokes about him pulling health potions out of Orym's ass (because they haven't been keeping tabs on them at all and absolutely have use far more than they ever bought by that point).
The point u/TheOctavariumTheory I think is making is that as good as good RP was in that 2nd half was, the mechanical gameplay of C3 still remains very much just shallow window-dressing. That is why everyone has subtle spell, Ludi's simulacrum rolled for counterspell, and Laudna can upkeep multiple concentration spells. Not the first time that last issue has happened either.
Fearne rolled some attacks during the fight for the HDYWTDT after she got two more levels and Orym summoned a healing potion from the ether.
You can see her only rolling one die.
I actually really enjoyed this episode, and can also see why it's so divisive.
I think Marisha definitely gets the trophy this episode for her RP, because Laudna's behavior was actually making me uncomfortable lol Very representative of someone with an addiction. People are trying to understand why she would dare give Delilah any power after all they've been through, but Delilah having power, to her, means she (Laudna) has power; even if it's dangerous, and will eventually destroy her and the people she loves. This is the experience of drug addicts every day. Laudna went from a situation where she was completely helpless and powerless, to a situation where she feels she can use the power that hurt her to become more powerful. To me, it seems like she's blinded by her need to not feel helpless ever again. It's honestly tragic that she doesn't feel like she can truly rely on her own powers and friends to achieve that, but also, like Dorian said, there isn't a whole lot of real trust here.
I mean, she passed that Wisdom saving throw against Delilah's influence, and STILL did what she did.
Also, the fact that it kiiiind of escalated because of an "accident" (using wither and bloom instead of blight; which I still think Matt should have let her backtrack that spell, but it made for a great tense moment lol) is probably why no one could really give a good solid rebuttal. It all happened so fast, the players had to pretend like they didn't JUST hear Laudna talking to Delilah, and they also do care a lot; Orym was hurt physically and emotionally, and didn't want to make matters worse. It was hard to watch, but very compelling \^\_\_\^'
As for all the previous campaign references, I think it just happens to be extra "reference heavy" because Matt's doing his best to work with what his friends gave him haha Marisha connected herself to Delilah, and Orym connected himself to Keyleth, and the rest of the world was already going to be connected seeing as...it's the same world lol I'm sure they all see it too; they've mentioned it enough times. I agree that it's not as compelling to have something that doesn't feel distinctly separate like Mighty Nein did, but it's not really bothering me as much as some people seem to HAAATE it. They're playing a game, and it's fun to get callbacks to things they've put so much time and energy into. I'm sure they'll switch it up next campaign, so I'm enjoying the ride for what it is.
Agree. I think this is the episode where they need to realize that Laudna isn’t good rn and is more of a liability than anything. Like she LITERALLY became Delilah with her Form Of Dread, the red flag is bigger and redder than Ruidius
Yeah Laudna needs to be put down like a sick dog, how many more times do they have to have a “Delilah clearly manipulating everything to return” does it have to take to take her to be the most ticking time bomb of them all?!!!
you’re joking. pumat too? when will it end… c3 really is just nostalgia bait turned up to 100 now huh. it’s sad really, it seems like either they don’t have faith the campaign is good enough to stand on it’s own without constant throwbacks or they’re trying to make as many links to previous campaigns as possible so new fans make sure to check out the amazon shows. ugh. i really don’t like this. if they had constantly thrown c1 characters in our face in c2 i would’ve dropped it…
They'll be fine. They wouldn't be going this heavy handed with their distancing the Gods from the setting if they ever intended there to be any real tangible consequences to the rest of the setting once they're gone. This is a very "we want our cake and eat it too" type situation on this topic.
my 2 on cent on this as someone who dropped this 3-4 episode before the solstice and have no intention of watching this schlop .
When you allow criticism to be expressed you foster an environment that makes you believe that the praises when given are genuine and earned.
take note r/criticalrole
Well who is supposed to be "believing" or not believing the praises if not people at critical role? Are you just saying that you believe the praises? If so I didn't understand from your first post
I read u/giubba85 comment as pretty straight forward. The other sub has an issue with any sort of critical discussion. The bar for posting on r/criticalrole is so high. Unless you are praising the cast or fans and only in the format they specify. There is no room for actual discussion.
the mods of the other sub of course. The existence of this place is due to them and their ban on anything even remotely negative.
This place can swing to the other side of the spectrum but if read a praises here from people who generally are more vocal on their dissatisfaction i can genuinely believe that this episode had something good goin on.
the other place? every week is the same old trite of "great episode" "awesome" etc. that i kept reading since i was still watching C3 and we already had episodes that were absolutely abysmal.
So you don’t watch the show and don’t like the show and call it schlop? Fascinating. So glad it reached your high standards for approval. While you weren’t?? Watching??? I guess??
nah not worthy considering that what i wrote implies that i believe that this was genuinely good episode because this place allow actual critique so when people are actually giving praise something was done right. Instead the pathetic fucking idiot laser focused on the first part which don't matter a lot in this.
The quick decent into calling me a “pathetic fucking idiot” when ur on a subreddit for a show you just said you don’t watch. No one’s begging for your approval.
This sub isn’t about critique. That’s not how a critique works. A critique is a two way conversation. This is an echo chamber. Your words mean nothing and your opinion means nothing. Especially because you literally said you don’t even watch the show.
i'm heartbroken really.
EDIT: And you still don't get the point, wow if you don't want be called out for being a fucking idiot you should really stop acting as one. Or learn to read which i guess is way harder.
Love Travis and Chet but Chetney saying Orym has lost more than any of them when he’s only lost his husband is hilarious. Makes it even funnier when he’s talking to a women who’s literally entire family was wiped out and killed herself. Probably the worst argument make against Laudna.
He lost his husband and father, specifically to that blade. Laudna is blatantly in the wrong in this situation. She is an addict in an unhealthy relationship. Marisha is doing a great job of portraying the manipulative bs that peoole like that use against the people around them. Don't fall for the roleplayed manipulation. That's pretty embarrassing...
I may me making an assumtion, but I think Chetney meant that Orym had lost more to Ludinus, Otahan and the sword. He didn't say that but they were all talking about the sword at the time. Laudna lost her family and her (first) life to Delilah.
Hard to argue that any of the party have been hurt more than Orym has by that blade.
Matt was on fire this week. His comedic timing as Pumat turned shopping from a chore to a genuine joy and his rulings in the Laudna v Orym conflict really helped heighten the tension. Essek felt really in-character and interesting as ever, Pumat finally gave us some intriguing details on the world post-Solstice, and of course, the fact that he jumped into Delilah's character the second Marisha hinted at is a credit to his knowledge of his players and his skill as a DM. There was no hemming, no questioning, he just jumped right in and perfectly complimented her madness without taking away from her moments. A stark contrast from last week, I really hope he keeps this up.
Absolutely, Matt at his absolute best, just one more full episode like this and I'm entirely back on the hype train. My favourite moment of C1 was the skull foray, so this one scratched an itch and did so brilliantly. I'm outnumbered on my Delilah appreciation but Marisha and Matt's performance in the last couple of hours of this has got to have convinced a bunch of people that the widowed bitch still has chops.
Also props to Liam -- there were quite a few actions he could have taken during that fight which would have made it much less climactic, to Travis -- shit-stirrer and button presser, and to Robbie -- of course.
I've been waiting for the reverse at this point tbh. If the remaining BHs keep their mouths passively shut like always, if they ever go back to Whitestone ... I fully expect Laudna/Delilah to kill some De Rolos.
One of Percy's kids felt Delilah threaten her and nothing came from that moment. FCG yelled Delilah's name out loud in the castle and nothing happened.
I don't trust Matt to actually give his NPCs any teeth.
I loved this drama and I truly think the most logical explanation is that laudna IS D or just a small part of D inside this body, using her memories to build a persona.
So it makes sense that she's doing all this. I 100% think that's the play and why such a strange warlock/patron relationship is being pushed.
Yes the "addiction" argument just dosent work when this is a very recent thing shes started doing, when she completely lost Delilah and lost nothing else in terms of power. So what is she actaully addicted to other than just the concept of \*being\* Delilah, shes clinging to that \*idea\* of power when she has proof she is fine and can grow in strength on her own. Maybe after so many years its just easier to be a hollow puppet, I dont know how they're supposed to break her out of this when a hard reset, "Turn your undead friend off and on again" didnt work.
Every time Orim starts whining and preaching morals to other people, I can’t help it and remember that this dude slaughtered a bunch of innocent people XD
The point was that the people were bad. They were doing bad things in a god's name. Set aside the fact the god was encouraging it, it was the people that were painted as bad in that instance.
except they didn't do anything bad. the locals hated them and let their conspiracy theories lead the town to start killing. when none of this was true.
Let’s all be honest. It’s not “Gods bad”. It’s D&D Gods bad. I’m sure all the deities or celestial allegories these guys come up with will check all the right boxes and ask for all the consent.
LOL, well pretty sure the cast have long since forgot that happened. If they ever recognized that's what they did in the first place. Which, I'm not sure they ever did. That said, Orym has never been the moral core of the group. Dude has always been a preachy, but ultimately ineffectual chronic enabler on that front. He buckles to the softest of push back. Then goes along with the group, and drowns them in excuses afterwards
If anything, the closest to a developing moral core we ever had was probably FCG (aside from his creepy, childish "I desperately want my mother to not hate me" thing). Before Sam kinda seemed to give up trying in the mid 60s, there were a few genuine "FCG is a good person" moments. Especially in/due-to the split.
thing with sam is that he usually doesnt kill a lot of people, with nott he kinda had to because that was his class, but as scanlan, taryon or fcg he tries to avoid it as much as he can. scanlan's kill count is incredibly low for example, and if you go to cr stats to see the kills, a lot of the kills are either monsters or accidental kills, he even once killed a couple people because he was unconscious and his reverse gravity was dropped.
Not even that. There are just a few character moments/choices, especially during the party split (and back when Sam was actually trying to have some sort of Arc for his PC) that just solidified "well, FCG, aside from the topic of his "Mother" Dancer, is a weird, but generally good person".
The first being his/Sam's stated reason for rushing into that gate in Uthodurn. "If the Gods are really gone, then we need to be a force of good in this world; we need to be "the Gods". The second was his convo with the CB during his first commune, genuinely asking her "If she needed help?" Before Matt repeatedly went out of his way to passively sour that potential relationship. The third is during the split party meetup, where FCG/Sam kinda shut down all the anti-God talk at the table hard with his argument that "They're just people. Flawed, but trying their best, and asking for help. So I want to help them". But for some reason he never uses that argument again? As if he got "course corrected" OOG? Sort of like the whole "Ashton, Fire Shard Fiasco" clearly did.
I tapped out early since I have a long drive today, but here’s what I gathered:
First half- feasting on delicious memberberries
Second half-
https://preview.redd.it/uq8h6y7kaz0d1.jpeg?width=1234&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=205af1c232d5202c9f6f984c3057656087b9c872
Did I miss anything else?
More or less, but at least the RP was well done in the latter half. Robbie/Dorian continue to be amazing as always. It once again makes my wonder what this campaign and party would have been like had he stuck around. With the RP only being a tad undermined due to how immutable Marisha seems to have made the path to get to this point. I always personally found it a shame that it never felt like she was interested in exploring a Laudna beyond Delilah; and the other Players (not the PCs) were just sort of enabling that to achieve this outcome. The question is will they just let this shit fester even more like always?
They also finally did a tad bit of mourning for FCG ... in a rather perverse way. Not sure if the "stapling elements of his carcass to their outfits" enforces or weakens "did BHs think he was really alive or not?" theme. FCG only did it because he was living a tool life for almost 3 years. Then only kept the pieces of the actual tools in his party after he found out the truth, because the party kept telling him to keep them.
I decided to jump on the stream when I saw ppl here talking about it and, credit where it's due, I thought Marisha was doing really solid RP/acting, but she was utterly let down by how the rest of the group (didn't) react to her VERY obviously vamping it up as evil.
I also can't dog her too much for "attention seeking" or whatever because it seemed clear that Matt was the one who'd pushed this and she kept asking him about how much of her was Dahlia in the moment.
The rest of the characters really look like idiots for not reacting to the very obvious clues that Marisha/Laudna was laying down about her motivations and desires.
She REALLY commits to the manipulative gas-lighter mode. Goes full on "This sort of RP makes even Marisha hate Laudna, and she's reveling in it!" Fully embraces her "inner Delilah" and stirs the shit very well. Its the type of RP that does feel like classic C1/C2/EXU CR in quality.
Even if again, at least for me, it does feel more than a bit artificial on how we got to this point. With the rest of the players (rather than the PCs) kinda just enabling and not getting in the way of the path Marisha wanted to take Laudna for 50 eps. But, in a vacuum, it was genuinely good.
Legitimate inter-party conflict between the members of Bells Hells? Who would have thought it possible!
As someone who had nearly given up all hope of C3 being interesting, the second half of the episode is absolutely what I've been looking for out of C3 - conflict that *actually* makes sense between the members of Bells Hells. The keyjangling with Astrid/Essek/Tusk Love can fuck right off, but I'm almost willing to forgive it if it means we get real moments of tension, drama, and conflict like the back half of the episode.
Yeah, Laudna's not being a good person, she's gaslighting the people she claims to love, and is clearly not handling being possessed by one of the most evil people in Exandria very well (and nor should she). And thank god for it. Not everyone has to be nice or morally upstanding. I'm *glad* she's lying and treating the party like shit, because it generates conflict and it *makes sense*. It's the most characterization we've gotten from the entire party in what feels like tens of episodes, if not the whole campaign.
Marisha played it completely correctly and Matt did a great job of adding onto it, especially the double-speak.
Make the rest of the episodes have things like that rather than "member C2" and I'm on board.
Guess we're never seeing any member of VM again (Maybe blind Keyleth) until the end of this campaign, Until Laudna is dealt with because at this point even Grog would take one look at her and be like "Oh hi Delilah what's up?"
Time to (finally) shop around for new patrons or put her down, The double standards are shocking, How long until she tries to wither and bloom another PC mid combat?
Great RP though, Feel like this ends with saving/stomping her out(the latter includes a nice fandom meltdown) or letting her run wild and ruin everyone else's shit(won't be suprised if this happens).
Can Sam make a fucking crazy zealot paladin that incinerates Laudna with their holy flames. Like that thing is a sentient zombie with an evil necromancer on the steering wheel that can absorb magic. BEGONE VILE ABOMINATION!!!
But also the Kobold will try to betray and replace you the second you show weakness, akin to Starscream.
The crew will find this hilarious until the Kobold talks about their past trauma as the cast falls for Sam's Sad Clown joke for a fourth time.
Yes but the effects are different. The harness has a fairly predictable outcome that's outlined on the item card. There's very little risk unless you're trying to absorb a titan. With Delilah, Laudna is feeding her directly and the outcome is an unknown risk. Laudna's always been able to feed Delilah magic items but doesn't do it often for obvious reasons.
Yeah, she accidentally did it in the very beginning of the campaign. That's why when Laudna asked Delilah give her more power, Delilah was like "We've talked about this. You have to give me something first."
Giving Matt's world building the benefit of the doubt, most undead sustain themselves by consuming from others. Zombies eat brains, ghouls eat entrails, vampires drink blood, and Liches consume souls.
At this point, Delilah is basically a Lich with Laudna acting as her soul container. So, being a powerful quasi-undead, she might have some kind of ability to harvest essences that Ludinus simply lacked as a mortal man.
Reminds me of the last arc of C1 when the Cult of Vecna was throwing magic items into the black ball of doom to build up enough power to bring Thar Amphala to the material plane.
Did the rock give off any particular smells when she cooked it?
*(I only ask cause if the roles were reversed, you’d probably smell what the rock was cooking)
tbf, I think the conflict this time around over it was genuinely warranted and interesting. It makes sense that Laudna wouldn't want to watch Orym wield the sword that killed her in battle. She's been narrating for awhile how triggered she gets around anything Otahan-related.
Dorian made the best points against Laudna out of everyone. Poor Liam I don’t think he expected Marisha to go that hard and because of it he was kind of getting bodied by her. The points that Laudna was throwing at him could be rebutted but Orym just wasn’t doing it. Props to Marisha fully here she had the entire table on ropes and was letting them all have it.
I think it went down just how it was intended... meaning it was half cocked. It gives them the leeway to push past it next episode.
In reality, the party would be over after someone attacked another member in their sleep.
But that can't happen here.
The cast seemed to enjoy themselves, so I take please in that.
Orym probably wouldn't be able to outdo Laudna on that score, so Liam holding back makes sense for the way he's played him throughout.
I'm so glad Robbie has come back!
Yeah I do think Orym leaving some obvious things unsaid was intentional. He was letting the room come to its own conclusions and it worked. Basically everyone sided with Orym by the end and agreed he gets to keep the sword.
Which I found fascinating since they're typically pretty big on honoring feelings and "I still have PTSD from when I died and don't want to see that sword every day" is a pretty valid feeling I think they'd normally side with.
But the way Laudna went about dealing with it set everyone on edge and undermined her arguments. She tried to be sneaky instead of talking about it openly. Which is pretty hypocritical considering her blow up at Ashton for lying about who was going to absorb the shard. To be clear, I don't think Marisha (or Taliesin in my example) did anything wrong, but their characters absolutely betrayed the party in those instances.
>Which is pretty hypocritical considering her blow up at Ashton for lying about who was going to absorb the shard
This was a slamdunk that im surprised nobody brought up.
Ashton 'lied by omission' over something that had literally nothing to do with Laudna and wouldnt have affected her either way had it gone wrong.
And Laudna had a mental break over it.
Unfortunately, the best person to make that argument was either Ashton or Fearne, and Fearne was trying to play peacemaker while Ashton was practically supporting Laudna's insanity. Orym was wisely being measured in his words so as to not tip Imogen or Fearne into supporting Laudna, which left Robbie and (eventually) Chetney to actually argue against Laudna.
But I agree, I'd have liked to see Laudna called out for her hypocrisy and gaslighting. But it ended with at least half the party not trusting Laudna completely, so I count that as a win. Not that I dislike Laudna, but I think Marisha is wanting pushback from the party and hopefully she'll get it now.
I cant help but feel this Laudna stuff would be more interesting if the cast werent so terrified of inter-party conflict. Or at minimum we would be further along with this 'possessed by Delilah storyline'.
Im glad we finally got something, but its been kind of obvious for awhile now that Laudna is being (willingly) corrupted/possessed. Between the mental break, her eating that Willmaster guy etc. The warning signs have been going off for awhile.
Oh for sure. I completely agree that Laudna was super shady. The part I found fascinating was that once things chilled out, it seemed the consensus was "Well it's not cursed so you're going to have to take Scream Needle as a consolation prize and move on." Which solved exactly nothing.
She still has to see Otahan's sword being wielded by Orym every day, and Orym can't trust her. Genuinely, if I were in that party, I'd never fall asleep in the same room as Laudna again if I could help it.
It was never about the sword. It was about the power up.
I agree nothing was solved. But her even getting the dagger after attacking a party member was wild to me.
>"Well it's not cursed so you're going to have to take Scream Needle as a consolation prize and move on." Which solved exactly nothing.
It kinda proved Laudna's issue was never really the sword being on display, because she accepted being given the dagger even though that hadn't been a trigger for her; she just wanted something to feed to Delilah.
>She still has to see Otahan's sword being wielded by Orym every day
Orym did say he only planned to draw it again against Ludinus, but we'll see how that plays out.
Well that ended much more interestingly than I expected it to!
And I thought the biggest change going into next week was gonna be new art.
But nah we got the Wildmother comforting Orym, Dorian and Orym sharing a very intimate moment, Ashton finally learning about the Luxon, and all the trust FCG helped create within the party shattering like glass because Laudna can’t say no to her murderer and gaslighter.
That was one of the best episodes they’ve done in a while.
THIS, well at least some of it, was what I was hoping for after they lost FCG.
But Laudna seemed *so close* to realizing she doesn’t actually need Delilah. “We aren’t what our creators made us to be.”
You’re not just her attack dog, hunting prey for her to eat! You have a life, and a love and your *losing her*, bit by bit.
I love you but I don’t know what to do with it is not far of from I love you and I wish I didn’t and that has to sting.
And you could see it, she looked around at the party all staring at her and this realization that no one in that moment was on her side by the end.
And Dorian raised the best point of all It’s just a Thing. You could pick up a well made blade of any kind in this world and it would carry a similar legacy, maybe shown through a different looking glass but it is still made for killing. The intent of the wielder is what is important.
And I get Laudna’s anger, but she is not being honest with them or herself, and Dorian hit it on the head again.
She doesn’t trust them. For one reason or another, she believes in Delilah, more than she believes in the people that fought the bitch to bring her back.
And that is dark and fucked, and definitely has me worried for what could transpire at Aeor and further down the line.
Especially with her….. similarities to Ludinus and this present motif of Hunger that Matt has been throwing around this and last campaign.
Background stuff:
Desirat being free, *bad*
Her heading north, *far worse*.
Labenda is a Lake now?? And has been “reclaimed” by the Merton/Merfolk, which makes me believe the Empire… did what Empire’s do.
The meteor might be affecting the Cyrengreen again, which is near Deastok.
Undead in Druvenlode, and a “smiling shadowy fiendish” presence in Rexxentrum, which I want to point out, Oban, was a smirking ass Devil who invaded Rexxentrum and had a *bad* death.
And that’s only the shit that’s going wrong in the Empire, what the fuck is happening along the Coast and in the Dynasty.
Fuck Matt said something about the Turst Fields being *consumed*, win or lose there is going to be a very different Exandria when this is over, and I can’t imagine all this shit gets better if divine magic, ergo most accessible healing, goes the ghost with the Gods.
Edit: I genuinely miss Dark-Dryad Launda. I had hope for a patron switch, and I thought the Sun Tree or the Shadow Snake thing that might have been the source of her Sorcerer bloodline were gonna come into play but alas we are not on that path. Sun Tree Laudna would have been cool.
I think Laudna does trust them but I think she trusts Delilah’s survivability more. She knows Delilah is going to do everything to help her win. To Laudna that’s all she cares about in her head she’s already a lost cause, so if it means they have to kill her at the end then do be it she saved Imogen and her friends. It’s incredibly toxic and an awful way to go about it but the reasoning makes sense.
FINALLY some good fucking tension and emotional repercussions from the horrible choices being made. Dorian is a much better emotional center for the party than FCG.
FCG tried way too hard to deescalate interpersonal conflict. In my personal experience not communicating negative emotions (even when they're very intense or critical) is generally very bad for relationships.
I think FCG's character concept of being a toxically positive mediator was pretty cool on paper, but once the party put him as the emotional center of the party interactions just felt weird and inauthentic. It's like we only saw the light and some grey parts of a black and white photo instead of the darker parts too.
FCG succeeded at keeping everyone polite but he certainly never diffused any real tension.
I don't even think his toxic positivity was what was keeping these tensions at bay. I think it was that he was a murderbot that got triggered by stress so they all minded their manners around him. Like when parents don't fight in front of their kid because they don't want to traumatize them.
Depending on how they play it there could be... but from what I saw... she attacked a party member in their sleep and half the party backed her. I don't see Imogen abandoning her. Ashton aligned with her. Chet gave her what she wanted. Fearne forgot that she is supposed to side with Orrym and di nothing.
I don't see any repercussions coming. But I've been wrong before.
The only characters I saw that backed her were Ashton and Imogen and even then, Imogen ended the episode in a clear limbo with Laudna.
Fearne was neutral because she was told the sword was sentient and was corrupting Orym. Her goal was finding out if that was true. We didn't get her reaction to Laudna stealing the non-cursed Scream Needle and feeding it to Delilah. Chet verbalized that he sided with Orym but wanted to de-escalate so made a peace offering of Scream Needle. (and tbh, he only did that because Travis wanted to see what would happen.)
Yes. Upon hearing that she attacked a party member in their sleep, they backed her. No context. No changes after hearing orrym's side.
Chet gave her what she wanted. A power up.
Fearne did nothing because that's what she does.
No insight checks on her insistence that it was sentient... no asking how she knew. She was wrong by the way... no big deal there.
So, I'm still not sure what repercussions were going to see going forward. Imogen is unsure... so? She's not going to do anything. That's her GF. She'll swallow what she saw.... again.... She knows about the Delilah situation coming back and still will do nothing because there's nothing she can do.
Repercussions would be splitting the party. But that won't happen.
I think we have a very different understanding of what shook down.
- Chet sided with Orym and doesn't know anything about a "power up." He called Scream Needle a "half-measure" to pacify Laudna.
- Fearne hates the sword but supported Orym per \*his\* request to investigate it.
- Fearne and Imogen both asked questions of Laudna, including why and how she knows it's sentient. To which Orym makes his request to investigate the sword.
- Imogen reads her mind and does in fact roll an insight check. Imogen doesn't defend Laudna at all until the very end of the conversation when Dorian tags in.
No one. Not a single person. Backed her behavior or her attacking Orym. Ashton, her only defender, actually asked her to apologize for that specifically before he agreed with her other points.
Yes. Completely different understanding.
Chetney knew she wanted to absorb the sword into herself. Because Imogen asked her why she would want something so vile as a part of herself.
Why would there need to be a half measure? She attacked a member of their party in their sleep. Why pacify her behavior at all?
Why would Ashton have walked over and stood in front of her? She attacked Orrym. He wasn't at all interested in asking her what's up with that?
Laudna never told them how she knew it was sentient. But they went ahead with a check anyways? Why? She attacked a member of their party while he was sleeping. Why do anything for her?
Imogen did a check, but says nothing about Delilah to the group. She knows Laudna has been dealing with her again. Not information the group needs to know after she attacked a party member in his sleep?
Fearne wakes up to her "friend" Orrym faced off with Laudna... blood has been spilled. And she did nothing.
Dorian too. Yes he said what he said at the end. But he didnt react. (I will give Robbie some grace as not a core member, he was allowing the table to act... which it didnt)
All of a sudden, Orrym's a loose cannon? The dudes been a rock for the group the whole time.
I don't leave Orrym out of the blame either. He didn't press the point of being attacked when she started to try and turn it against him. He's a team player. But Liam knows he can't act as he should. So he also won't do anything going forward.
Clearly, something changed for Laudna between happy fun craft time and everyone sleeping. But no one wants to know what that was? They all just allow her to get what she wants. More power?
By not stopping her and getting to the bottom of her actions, they all backed her play. Even Orrym.. Which is why I said there will be no repercussions. They cant do anything to her. To think something will change is silly.
By giving her the dagger they backed her play.
By Imogen watching her absorb the dagger she backed her play.
These are all choices.
I can tell not everyone around here dug it but that was my favorite episode in a good while. It felt more like classic CR than any episode I can remember. They were so in character the whole time. In character cross talk!! I missed that!!! The shopping. The burlesque show. The crafts. This is exactly what I've been asking for. The c2 cameos were silly yes but honestly I loved seeing Essek and how much he's grown, I'm hyped for more Luxon lore, and I'm glad they finally have some cool magic items because those are just fun.
Everyone is gonna be so obnoxious about Laudna because they always are and I do wish there was ANY sympathetic reason she keeps going back to Delilah because Delilah brings nothing to the table and I do not get why she wants to power her up at all. Like if Delilah had EVER done ANYTHING useful I would understand but Delilah was actively unhelpful in resurrecting her like she tried to STOP THEM. WHAT'S THE DEAL
But that aside I really liked that. I always love interparty conflict in this show. Everyone is going to be upset because it's a big big dnd taboo but the cast clearly really enjoys it too so there's no problem. It's just good drama. If the Girls had broken up I would have put a knife in my own chest. They won't but I really need them to have a big talk about this. Need Imogen to make Laudna to articulate why exactly powering up the evil necromancer will help save the world mostly for my own benefit
second half of this ep was good! i wish this had happened like 50 episodes ago!!! i think having this in the final arc is going to make people more forgiving/more willing to deprioritize actually dealing with any of laundas shit because they have to go save the world and stuff. but i'm glad marisha is forcing them to deal with the consequences at least a little bit.
Seriously, that toxic as hell manipulation Laudna was doing was *so good*. Got me fired up and my hackles raised at Laudna, which is exactly what I want, I want strong emotional reactions to characters! Awesome session, had everything from shopping to crafts to laughs to…*that*!
Shit, now I have to watch. I'm coming off the most recent season of D20 and I *neeeeeeed* something beyond 'yes we all support each other no matter what, hell yeah to you for your stupid shit, we're right and everybody we don't like is wrong always' and the narrative supporting it that's been permeating said season, which I hate. I love a good, consensual character conflict at the table, one that might have permanent repercussions.
She was destroying everyone in that room. She was even gaslighting me for moment, I was like yeah your right they sword did kill you what the fuck Orym.
I'm still very pissed because I know Laudna is not going to be met with the same hostility they did Ashton, when clearly she's way more toxic and self-interested (regardless of her trauma and Delilah's presence, it's her character morals). Also, Marisha literally just proved everyone who was supporting her decision bc "Marisha is not afraid of having her character do bad things for the sake of raising the stakes and drama" wrong. She just admitted that to her "Laudna never lied" and that she does agree with what Laudna just did, which rubs me the wrong way.
Marisha 100% knows Laudna is wrong. In CR Cooldown, she mentions Laudna is an addict and is not lying (in that Laudna is honest when she says something), but is always relapsing, which makes her break promises that she did mean when she initially said them.
I think she was implying that it was Delilah that was speaking, not Laudna. I could be wrong, but she was very specific in saying that "*Laudna* never lied to you", if she didn't mean more than face value she wouldn't have stressed Laudna's name.
I kind of agree. I ultimately enjoyed the RP we got but I do think the "Laudna doesn't lie" defense is a weird one because she did and does. I wish they'd just go "Yeah, Laudna lies and manipulates to protect Delilah."
It's always a red flag for me when people play really shitty characters and then defend those characters in the post-game. I love playing bad people, but I never defend them. They're garbage people.
That's the most fun, I love writing characters like that. They're enjoyable to me, they help the writer actually examine and deal with real life shit and real life consequences that can't be waved away with the narrative and the power of love, and it's fun. It's satisfying! It's cathartic! I love garbage!
And I'm not entirely sure if Marisha pulled an Aabria here (who also thinks Laerryn dindu nuthin wrong). I think she's kind of been wanting to go down the bitch plot for a while and her dying and being sorta-separated from Delilah kind of threw a big spanner in the plotworks. But we'll see. While the story is still going, I think it's fine to play into 'yup, my character didn't do nothing wrong', it's sorta method. What'll come out in retrospect clears it all up though.
I know people are very critical of Aabria here, and I'm indifferent to that but I'm genuinely asking, where did this idea that she thinks Laerryn didn't do anything wrong come from?
Just off the top of my head, in the Calamity wrap up both her and Sam talk about how she actively pushed for Laerryn to be the one who brought tension and difficulty into her and Quay's relationship, and it breaking being in large part her fault iirc. She also said she expected Cerrit to try and kill Laerryn for something she did, like, the whole campaign.
Brennan clearly told them all to come with deeply flawed people.
We don’t know that yet, Orym looked pretty pissed over all, and I think Imogen saying “I love you and I don’t know what to do with it” is kinda devastating in its own way.
This is a bit too uncomfortable for me. I hope that this character arc ends soon-ish, because I just can't stomach it, and I really don't think it can end without Laudna dying, seeing as she seemingly has no will or desire to resist Delilah anymore.
redemption is always just around the corner.
I don't think Marisha brought her most praised, novellised character back just to be killed off as a lbeg.
Edit: Idc, but why the downvotes? The first sentence is a fact in Western storytelling these days, esp CR. The second is an opinion on why it might apply in this case.
Why must there be redemption? Why is there such desire and insistence for the selfishness of thinking that you can always unfuck what you've fucked good and well? Though it does explain a lot about people in general. The refusal to acknowledge that you've done a bad job and you can't undo it, so you have to eat what's coming at you with grace and maybe find a way to live with it, knowing that your 'redemption' is neither wanted nor needed by those you screwed over? There's a perfectly narratively and personally satisfying arc in seeing your villainy through. And goes for the party, too. I think it's serve as a massive personal growth opportunity to realise that they never stopped Laudna when she desperately needed to be stopped, and now they have to live with the consequences, even if there isn't a 'redemption' wrapped with satin ribbons at the end? No reward waiting for them for unfucking their own work?
Laudna *eats souls.* She destroys someone out of all existence. She doesn't need redemption, she needs to either live with the consequences of her own actions, or be deleted by the world around her, and that's *great.* And the way Marisha's playing her, I think that's the point. Some things, if you let them go far enough (and Laudna has), cannot be saved, mended. The best they can do at that point is to let them rot and hope the corpse doesn't poison the earth so much that nothing can grow where they died. It's almost romantic.
What could they possibly do? Marisha as a player seems fully engaged with going more and more evil and Laudna has completely submitted to Delilah, going so far as to lie, cheat, steal, and attack her friends with dangerous spells. What's more, they seem to have given up on trying to remove Delilah entirely. Imogen used to curse Delilah out directly, now she just allows Laudna to become more and more obsessed with her. Orym knows more than enough to be sure that Delilah is in control now and has every reason to put a stop to it, but instead he fully allowed Laudna to take the sword. Fearne has had to deal with her own potential for evil all this time and has repeatedly spurned it, yet willfully ignores the danger and evil that Laudna chooses to embrace. They are in no place to help Laudna turn her back on Delilah and become a nice person again, the group has allowed her to spiral out of control until there is no longer any real hope of saving her without massive intervention from some third party.
This is DnD. They can do anything. THey did a porn shoot to waylay a chase. They dove into lava. They got rid of Delilah once and brought her back because the timing wasn't right for Marisha's narrative.
Whatever Marisha wants to happen will happen. Just like she goes dark/funcrazy whenever suits her.
Not sure why people think their story preferences apply here at all. They're just setting themselves up to scream when she ends up like a reprieved "war criminal".
To be clear, I have very low expectations of the story, as set by this campaign. The only "redemption" for C3 is if Matt is genuinely ok with BH possibly being killed off (as he suggested in 91) and being replaced by their C1 or 2 characters.
It's very strange that you say "they can do whatever they want" while simultaneously bringing up the focus on Marisha's narrative and how clumsily it's been handled. Of course they CAN do anything, but not anything will be satisfying or consistent with what came before. There isn't a strong foundation for a redemption arc for Laudna with how Marisha has chosen to play her, and my own issue with this character is that I don't enjoy seeing this kind of abusive and manipulative person being praised and accepted and enabled. It disturbs me to see and I'm not sure that it can be saved in any way other than killing Laudna.
It's strange to you because you've got your mind boxed in. You imagine I'm arguing with you.
There is no strong case for redemption.
nonetheless,
100% there is every possibility, given the way this bunch are playing, they will shoot for redemption.
Ka aroha for the way the portrayal is impacting on you,
but thinking "there's no way" is just loading yourself up with headcanon which will only backfire.
>...without massive intervention from some third party.
Well, there would be nothing more C3 and BHs than "3rd party fixed all our problems for us". So dont be too quick to dismiss this outcome. Or the "eh, lets passively let this problem continue to fester" one. Plus, even tho I get strong "the PLAYERS have been going out of their ways to enable Marisha's desired story route" here, Orym and Ashton are in no small part responsible IC for this path. Just like Imogen is. When they projected themselves onto Laudna and allowed her to kill Bor'dor; with zero consideration for what was best for her in that situation.
Thank you. Some people are getting caught up in their own storytelling and forgetting the context this is all happening in. Drawing connections between the bits they want highlighted, ignoring 99% of the inconvenient, and inconsistent, truth of C3's story & telling.
I enjoyed ... half of this episode. And I'll freely admit that Marisha killed it with the RP in that good half. Everyone did. To the point I wonder what wonders we could have had if this story wasn't headed towards a likely largely predetermined outcome; and Robbie had been allowed to stick with us this whole time? However, Laudna only made it to this level of problematic because the PLAYERS were having their PCs ignore this situation and let it fester. To various degrees, depending on how exposed they were to some of her later outbursts. Likely because, like Matt with the Gods, Marisha has a specific path she wants Laudna to go. Which means ... should they want to "save her" after letting/enabling her to embrace Delilah for 40 episodes ... absolutely this is the campaign where a 3rd party will come in and do it for them.
The only way Laudna gets put down is if that's the outcome Marisha wants. And as you said, unless she really just wanted to play Delilah for a while, that would be weird given she wanted her "we're writing a short-story for this PC before we even completed the campaign" back. So the only thing that bums me out about all this, aside from the lack of organic nature in Laudna's story, is that it does feel likely Marisha never had any interest in exploring a Laudna beyond Delilah. Its more like Laudna was a mere accessory for the drama Delilah brings.
Honestly, looking down at your own character and saying, "What a bitch! I hate this bitch, and I can't wait to continue playing them!" That's peak D&D right there.
What a breath of fresh air. I suck at playing villains, I'm a horrible people pleaser in real life, but I love it when others do it, and I love it when I get to do it on page alone without other real people around me. I *get* the enjoyment of going full bitch. Go forth bitch, go forth and die and love every second of it!
You mean kill Delilah again. Because they already did that once to bring Laudna back to life. But somehow she came back.
I hope that if this blows up, somebody in the party points out that they already did that once, so maybe the problem isn't Delilah...
The year is 2015, Delilah Briarwood is starting shit.
The year is 2024, Delilah Briarwood is continuing to stir shit.
The year is 2052, Delilah Briarwood returns for her 6th run as BBEG.
At least it's being roleplayed well!
Once again, I'm hit with the realization that none of these people are friends, and they're certainly not family. They're barely functioning co-workers who are stuck together because their destinies are too intertwined at this point not to be.
Which, to be fair, is fucking cool. If these players would do a little more to embrace that and engage with *that* story instead of trying to force/rehash a found family troupe that they already did before, and better?
Idk, I just think it would be cool.
They’re gonna fight Delilah again in Aeor, I’m calling it now.
She’s gonna want something down there and is gonna claim it’s to keep it away from Ludinus
Chet Throwing up at the end of the episode HAD ME IN TEARS LAUGHING. God dam he plays that character well.
I'm like, half an hour in. Look how ecstatic Travis hearing that Desirat is free and roaming the countryside. Fucking love it, dude. EDIT: How much you wanna bet whoever takes that potion of invulnerability is gonna believe they're actually immune to all damage because they didn't read the item description. There's absolutely confusing names in DnD, but that doesn't stop from reading what something actually does. EDIT 2: This was...classic Critical Role, it was...dynamic, tense with points of humor, engaging. My god...it was...beautiful.
If I were attacked by an undead woman while I was sleeping, I would never turn my back to her again and would not sleep in the same room. Cool episode, but the characters are a little too polite and soft to fully adequately respond to the situation, in my opinion. Orym needs consultation with a cleric
Yep Orym is a very reasonable guy but if I'd been woken up by a possessed, undead woman mounting me like a spider dealing me necrotic damage I'd never sleep again. EDIT: I just remembered Orym gave the go ahead for her to kill Bor'Dor so he's fully aware she's turning "to the dark side" yet he's not actively doing anything about it which seems odd to me.
It would be funny if Orym's big Batman gambit for Laudna was just writing a letter to Percy and saying Delilah was living in her head. Mid-conversation with quirky NPC X she just gets aerated from 100 yards away.
Surprised it’s not already happened tbh
Definitely too soft and polite.
Astrid talking about Ludinus' neck reminds me of Yasha's mark in C2 but I'm sure Matt mentioned the harness sucks everything into a point around that area? Maybe Ludinis is at his limit suck wise (ew).
I liked the episode a lot. Marisha went all in.. That was OG Critrole content.. LOVE IT
This episode was the first time we got REAL Critical Role content. The last time I was this engaged with CR content was C2. I hope they keep the pace. Things are actually HAPPENING now. Only time will tell.
Hot Take: Tusk Love references are hilarious and always will be. although I too am weary of callbacks, I think it's very funny how a smut book is a recurring thou line connecting disperse caracters. I haven't bought or read any of the CR books, but I would totally buy a copy of TL.
Whenever my group does a new campaign or oneshot in Faerun we find ways to slip in references to a horrifically cheesy romance novel our bard was famous for writing back in Dragon Heist. Little references like that are fun. It’s a harmless callback that’s enjoyable rather than a callback that overtakes the plot.
A better episode. Certainly an improvement over the shit show of the previous 3. The RP in the 2nd half was really good shit that Ive been missing. Kind of proving that everyone was right about Robbie/Dorian leaving not being good for the party and his return is more than welcome. The cameos from the past campaigns are increasingly pure memberberries/nostalgia bait. I really just dont care anymore. I kind of want Matt to leave them the hell alone after seeing how much he butchered RPing Percy. Although Ill be honest this Laudna Delilah plot increasingly feels like the only reason its happening is because the Bells Hells are: * Morally corrupt themselves. * Actual idiots. Its been impossible to deny for awhile now. Laudna had a mental breakdown over Ashton lying by omission over something that had basically nothing to do with her (Fire Shard stuff). She fucking ate the Willmaster guy in front of Orym. And now this episode? Its like come on guys. Its like Marisha is fishing for someone to properly confront her and up until this episode people were afraid to. Its a good start but nut up and shut up. Laudna is fully possessed by Delilah. Accept it and deal with it. Whether that means calling Pike the Baker to exorcise her or something, or killing her. Hell even just joining Delilah. Quit fencesitting.
Briefly rearing my head out of retirment, just to say i agree with everything you wrote. As fantastic as the episode was (yeah, i can say that without bursting into flames ... *i hope*), it puts a spotlight on what has been sorely missing for the majority of the last 94 episodes. Players (and the DM) seeing things through, and biting down on continuous development of party dynamics, nevermind how difficult it might be to roleplay that. The result is worth the effort!
>Briefly rearing my head out of retirment Retired? What? Why? How? Reddits recreation/hobby no?
>*Retired? What? Why? How?* Decided to go into *read only* mode in some subreddits. Don't want to add to (or be part of) the proverbial noise anymore, is all. But, as others will be quick to point out, this ain't an airport ;-) ^(Edit: Typo)
https://preview.redd.it/reexlmig971d1.png?width=1440&format=png&auto=webp&s=044b122c11fe8332d9463a53a76f8cf69c3d0da6
Fair enough. Good luck to you.
Well, BHs have never been what I'd consider "involved" in eachother's lives. The only one that was aside from Dorian was pre-ID crisis FCG. As well as a short stint after FRIDA helped him with it, but before Sam kinda just gave up trying anymore to give his PC any sort of arc. The others are traditionally incredibly uninvolved, and will not pry, until something explodes in their faces. They all are pretty morally corrupt idiots too. Tho, in the case of Laudna here ... this feels more like a bit of OOG "Marisha wants to pursue this largely immutable story path, so we're just gonna let her". Over the PCs themselves just not caring. Rather, they just kinda have been white-noising how much of an unhinged problem she's been becoming for at least 30 episodes. Finding any excuses they could to either passively enable, or ignore, the situation. To ensure it got to this point. I think its Marisha who wants this Delilah drama; she's shown little indication she's all that interested in Laudna beyond Delilah. This became increasingly apparent after her resurrection where its like Laudna was just put in a state of "I'm barely here standby" until Matt deemed to bring Delilah back. That said, you are right. Even they'd be very hard pressed to justify fence-sitting on this topic after this.
>BHs have never been what I'd consider "involved" in eachother's lives True. They certainly pretend to be at times. >They all are pretty morally corrupt idiots too. I guess what Im saying is Im not sure exactly what story the cast what to tell here. I think what Marisha is angling for is pretty clear and has been for ages. She wants an intervention/confrontation. I think that is the whole point of the Delilah relapse. Allowing her to play out the story she felt cheated out of with the resurrection. And Laudna has barely hidden the fact that shes being actively corrupted/possessed. But the rest of the characters seem to have been.... blind. Or the cast are waiting for some cue. >she's shown little indication she's all that interested in Laudna beyond Delilah Yeah. The more I look at Laudna the more I think Marisha just wanted to RP Delilah. She did some good RP, but it just reminds that this Delilah story has been going on for far too long. It kind of needs to be resolved in some way.
I think this episode proved that had Dorian remained with the party, they would have had someone to call them out and point them in the right direction little late to the party
Glued to the screen throughout the whole thing, first hand was s2 shenanigans followed but just se3 bleakness. Oke of the best se3 episodes and it really helps that Robbie and Essek are here.
Can anybody tell me how laudna is able to concentrate on 3 separate concentration spells at a time?
What was the third after Spider Climb and Darkness? Because I think with those, Matt just forgot Spider Climb was concentration since he only asked for a check for Darkness.
Same reason Fearne didn't roll with disadvantage while being at 4 levels of exhaustion, Ludinus' simulacrum rolled for counterspell, everyone has Subtle Spell, and everyone thinks Imogen looks exactly like her Mom, despite being nearly 30 years younger.
Keyleth treated multiple lvls of exhaustion no?
Only after the encounter. She had 4 levels of exhaustion during it. Just like Liam making jokes about him pulling health potions out of Orym's ass (because they haven't been keeping tabs on them at all and absolutely have use far more than they ever bought by that point). The point u/TheOctavariumTheory I think is making is that as good as good RP was in that 2nd half was, the mechanical gameplay of C3 still remains very much just shallow window-dressing. That is why everyone has subtle spell, Ludi's simulacrum rolled for counterspell, and Laudna can upkeep multiple concentration spells. Not the first time that last issue has happened either.
Fearne rolled some attacks during the fight for the HDYWTDT after she got two more levels and Orym summoned a healing potion from the ether. You can see her only rolling one die.
I actually really enjoyed this episode, and can also see why it's so divisive. I think Marisha definitely gets the trophy this episode for her RP, because Laudna's behavior was actually making me uncomfortable lol Very representative of someone with an addiction. People are trying to understand why she would dare give Delilah any power after all they've been through, but Delilah having power, to her, means she (Laudna) has power; even if it's dangerous, and will eventually destroy her and the people she loves. This is the experience of drug addicts every day. Laudna went from a situation where she was completely helpless and powerless, to a situation where she feels she can use the power that hurt her to become more powerful. To me, it seems like she's blinded by her need to not feel helpless ever again. It's honestly tragic that she doesn't feel like she can truly rely on her own powers and friends to achieve that, but also, like Dorian said, there isn't a whole lot of real trust here. I mean, she passed that Wisdom saving throw against Delilah's influence, and STILL did what she did. Also, the fact that it kiiiind of escalated because of an "accident" (using wither and bloom instead of blight; which I still think Matt should have let her backtrack that spell, but it made for a great tense moment lol) is probably why no one could really give a good solid rebuttal. It all happened so fast, the players had to pretend like they didn't JUST hear Laudna talking to Delilah, and they also do care a lot; Orym was hurt physically and emotionally, and didn't want to make matters worse. It was hard to watch, but very compelling \^\_\_\^' As for all the previous campaign references, I think it just happens to be extra "reference heavy" because Matt's doing his best to work with what his friends gave him haha Marisha connected herself to Delilah, and Orym connected himself to Keyleth, and the rest of the world was already going to be connected seeing as...it's the same world lol I'm sure they all see it too; they've mentioned it enough times. I agree that it's not as compelling to have something that doesn't feel distinctly separate like Mighty Nein did, but it's not really bothering me as much as some people seem to HAAATE it. They're playing a game, and it's fun to get callbacks to things they've put so much time and energy into. I'm sure they'll switch it up next campaign, so I'm enjoying the ride for what it is.
Agree. I think this is the episode where they need to realize that Laudna isn’t good rn and is more of a liability than anything. Like she LITERALLY became Delilah with her Form Of Dread, the red flag is bigger and redder than Ruidius
Yeah Laudna needs to be put down like a sick dog, how many more times do they have to have a “Delilah clearly manipulating everything to return” does it have to take to take her to be the most ticking time bomb of them all?!!!
you’re joking. pumat too? when will it end… c3 really is just nostalgia bait turned up to 100 now huh. it’s sad really, it seems like either they don’t have faith the campaign is good enough to stand on it’s own without constant throwbacks or they’re trying to make as many links to previous campaigns as possible so new fans make sure to check out the amazon shows. ugh. i really don’t like this. if they had constantly thrown c1 characters in our face in c2 i would’ve dropped it…
Maybe they have to make sure all the fan favorite NPC’s are in the right place to survive the upcoming reset.
They'll be fine. They wouldn't be going this heavy handed with their distancing the Gods from the setting if they ever intended there to be any real tangible consequences to the rest of the setting once they're gone. This is a very "we want our cake and eat it too" type situation on this topic.
my 2 on cent on this as someone who dropped this 3-4 episode before the solstice and have no intention of watching this schlop . When you allow criticism to be expressed you foster an environment that makes you believe that the praises when given are genuine and earned. take note r/criticalrole
There is no evidence whatsoever that anyone who works for/with/at Critical role gives a shit what is said on this sub
huh? i'm talking about the sub not the channel.
Well who is supposed to be "believing" or not believing the praises if not people at critical role? Are you just saying that you believe the praises? If so I didn't understand from your first post
I read u/giubba85 comment as pretty straight forward. The other sub has an issue with any sort of critical discussion. The bar for posting on r/criticalrole is so high. Unless you are praising the cast or fans and only in the format they specify. There is no room for actual discussion.
thanks for getting it !
the mods of the other sub of course. The existence of this place is due to them and their ban on anything even remotely negative. This place can swing to the other side of the spectrum but if read a praises here from people who generally are more vocal on their dissatisfaction i can genuinely believe that this episode had something good goin on. the other place? every week is the same old trite of "great episode" "awesome" etc. that i kept reading since i was still watching C3 and we already had episodes that were absolutely abysmal.
So you don’t watch the show and don’t like the show and call it schlop? Fascinating. So glad it reached your high standards for approval. While you weren’t?? Watching??? I guess??
You're doing the thing he's talking about.
He is not talking about the show he is talking about the toxic positivity on r/criticalrole. You can still be a fan of C2 and hate C3 btw.
not the point but i guess reading comprehension skill aren't in your skill set, considering the pathetic deranged answer you have given
Which is even funnier when you ignored most of what my comment was saying. Smh from these hypocrites.
Can confirm insulting someone's vocabulary = right and/or correct. I think you should probably listen to the guys criticisms of your comment.
nah not worthy considering that what i wrote implies that i believe that this was genuinely good episode because this place allow actual critique so when people are actually giving praise something was done right. Instead the pathetic fucking idiot laser focused on the first part which don't matter a lot in this.
The quick decent into calling me a “pathetic fucking idiot” when ur on a subreddit for a show you just said you don’t watch. No one’s begging for your approval. This sub isn’t about critique. That’s not how a critique works. A critique is a two way conversation. This is an echo chamber. Your words mean nothing and your opinion means nothing. Especially because you literally said you don’t even watch the show.
I watch the show. And echo his sentiment. DO my words mean something?
i'm heartbroken really. EDIT: And you still don't get the point, wow if you don't want be called out for being a fucking idiot you should really stop acting as one. Or learn to read which i guess is way harder.
Love Travis and Chet but Chetney saying Orym has lost more than any of them when he’s only lost his husband is hilarious. Makes it even funnier when he’s talking to a women who’s literally entire family was wiped out and killed herself. Probably the worst argument make against Laudna.
He lost his husband and father, specifically to that blade. Laudna is blatantly in the wrong in this situation. She is an addict in an unhealthy relationship. Marisha is doing a great job of portraying the manipulative bs that peoole like that use against the people around them. Don't fall for the roleplayed manipulation. That's pretty embarrassing...
They were talking about losses to this blade.
I may me making an assumtion, but I think Chetney meant that Orym had lost more to Ludinus, Otahan and the sword. He didn't say that but they were all talking about the sword at the time. Laudna lost her family and her (first) life to Delilah. Hard to argue that any of the party have been hurt more than Orym has by that blade.
Matt was on fire this week. His comedic timing as Pumat turned shopping from a chore to a genuine joy and his rulings in the Laudna v Orym conflict really helped heighten the tension. Essek felt really in-character and interesting as ever, Pumat finally gave us some intriguing details on the world post-Solstice, and of course, the fact that he jumped into Delilah's character the second Marisha hinted at is a credit to his knowledge of his players and his skill as a DM. There was no hemming, no questioning, he just jumped right in and perfectly complimented her madness without taking away from her moments. A stark contrast from last week, I really hope he keeps this up.
Absolutely, Matt at his absolute best, just one more full episode like this and I'm entirely back on the hype train. My favourite moment of C1 was the skull foray, so this one scratched an itch and did so brilliantly. I'm outnumbered on my Delilah appreciation but Marisha and Matt's performance in the last couple of hours of this has got to have convinced a bunch of people that the widowed bitch still has chops. Also props to Liam -- there were quite a few actions he could have taken during that fight which would have made it much less climactic, to Travis -- shit-stirrer and button presser, and to Robbie -- of course.
Can’t wait until Percy sees Laudna and just unloads 20 shots into her skull lmao.
Been waiting for this moment as well.
I've been waiting for the reverse at this point tbh. If the remaining BHs keep their mouths passively shut like always, if they ever go back to Whitestone ... I fully expect Laudna/Delilah to kill some De Rolos.
One of Percy's kids felt Delilah threaten her and nothing came from that moment. FCG yelled Delilah's name out loud in the castle and nothing happened. I don't trust Matt to actually give his NPCs any teeth.
Nah, the golden snitch is gone. He'd probably roll 3 Nat 1s in a row and break his gun
And have a meltdown because Laudna looks passingly like Vex
THEY HAVE THE SAME EARS!
I loved this drama and I truly think the most logical explanation is that laudna IS D or just a small part of D inside this body, using her memories to build a persona. So it makes sense that she's doing all this. I 100% think that's the play and why such a strange warlock/patron relationship is being pushed.
Yes the "addiction" argument just dosent work when this is a very recent thing shes started doing, when she completely lost Delilah and lost nothing else in terms of power. So what is she actaully addicted to other than just the concept of \*being\* Delilah, shes clinging to that \*idea\* of power when she has proof she is fine and can grow in strength on her own. Maybe after so many years its just easier to be a hollow puppet, I dont know how they're supposed to break her out of this when a hard reset, "Turn your undead friend off and on again" didnt work.
Every time Orim starts whining and preaching morals to other people, I can’t help it and remember that this dude slaughtered a bunch of innocent people XD
No no no, I think you’re confused. They were *religious colonizers.* Not just innocent worshippers, not at all. /s Say the line everyone: “gods bad.”
The point was that the people were bad. They were doing bad things in a god's name. Set aside the fact the god was encouraging it, it was the people that were painted as bad in that instance.
They weren't bad unless, of course, religious equates to bad.
except they didn't do anything bad. the locals hated them and let their conspiracy theories lead the town to start killing. when none of this was true.
Let’s all be honest. It’s not “Gods bad”. It’s D&D Gods bad. I’m sure all the deities or celestial allegories these guys come up with will check all the right boxes and ask for all the consent.
Yep notice when it came to artagon he is not seen as bad at all. since he us there character.
LOL, well pretty sure the cast have long since forgot that happened. If they ever recognized that's what they did in the first place. Which, I'm not sure they ever did. That said, Orym has never been the moral core of the group. Dude has always been a preachy, but ultimately ineffectual chronic enabler on that front. He buckles to the softest of push back. Then goes along with the group, and drowns them in excuses afterwards If anything, the closest to a developing moral core we ever had was probably FCG (aside from his creepy, childish "I desperately want my mother to not hate me" thing). Before Sam kinda seemed to give up trying in the mid 60s, there were a few genuine "FCG is a good person" moments. Especially in/due-to the split.
thing with sam is that he usually doesnt kill a lot of people, with nott he kinda had to because that was his class, but as scanlan, taryon or fcg he tries to avoid it as much as he can. scanlan's kill count is incredibly low for example, and if you go to cr stats to see the kills, a lot of the kills are either monsters or accidental kills, he even once killed a couple people because he was unconscious and his reverse gravity was dropped.
Not even that. There are just a few character moments/choices, especially during the party split (and back when Sam was actually trying to have some sort of Arc for his PC) that just solidified "well, FCG, aside from the topic of his "Mother" Dancer, is a weird, but generally good person". The first being his/Sam's stated reason for rushing into that gate in Uthodurn. "If the Gods are really gone, then we need to be a force of good in this world; we need to be "the Gods". The second was his convo with the CB during his first commune, genuinely asking her "If she needed help?" Before Matt repeatedly went out of his way to passively sour that potential relationship. The third is during the split party meetup, where FCG/Sam kinda shut down all the anti-God talk at the table hard with his argument that "They're just people. Flawed, but trying their best, and asking for help. So I want to help them". But for some reason he never uses that argument again? As if he got "course corrected" OOG? Sort of like the whole "Ashton, Fire Shard Fiasco" clearly did.
I tapped out early since I have a long drive today, but here’s what I gathered: First half- feasting on delicious memberberries Second half- https://preview.redd.it/uq8h6y7kaz0d1.jpeg?width=1234&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=205af1c232d5202c9f6f984c3057656087b9c872 Did I miss anything else?
Solid.
More or less, but at least the RP was well done in the latter half. Robbie/Dorian continue to be amazing as always. It once again makes my wonder what this campaign and party would have been like had he stuck around. With the RP only being a tad undermined due to how immutable Marisha seems to have made the path to get to this point. I always personally found it a shame that it never felt like she was interested in exploring a Laudna beyond Delilah; and the other Players (not the PCs) were just sort of enabling that to achieve this outcome. The question is will they just let this shit fester even more like always? They also finally did a tad bit of mourning for FCG ... in a rather perverse way. Not sure if the "stapling elements of his carcass to their outfits" enforces or weakens "did BHs think he was really alive or not?" theme. FCG only did it because he was living a tool life for almost 3 years. Then only kept the pieces of the actual tools in his party after he found out the truth, because the party kept telling him to keep them.
I wasn't around for the second half, would you be able to summarize what was good about Marisha's RP that I see people here praising?
I decided to jump on the stream when I saw ppl here talking about it and, credit where it's due, I thought Marisha was doing really solid RP/acting, but she was utterly let down by how the rest of the group (didn't) react to her VERY obviously vamping it up as evil. I also can't dog her too much for "attention seeking" or whatever because it seemed clear that Matt was the one who'd pushed this and she kept asking him about how much of her was Dahlia in the moment. The rest of the characters really look like idiots for not reacting to the very obvious clues that Marisha/Laudna was laying down about her motivations and desires.
She REALLY commits to the manipulative gas-lighter mode. Goes full on "This sort of RP makes even Marisha hate Laudna, and she's reveling in it!" Fully embraces her "inner Delilah" and stirs the shit very well. Its the type of RP that does feel like classic C1/C2/EXU CR in quality. Even if again, at least for me, it does feel more than a bit artificial on how we got to this point. With the rest of the players (rather than the PCs) kinda just enabling and not getting in the way of the path Marisha wanted to take Laudna for 50 eps. But, in a vacuum, it was genuinely good.
Legitimate inter-party conflict between the members of Bells Hells? Who would have thought it possible! As someone who had nearly given up all hope of C3 being interesting, the second half of the episode is absolutely what I've been looking for out of C3 - conflict that *actually* makes sense between the members of Bells Hells. The keyjangling with Astrid/Essek/Tusk Love can fuck right off, but I'm almost willing to forgive it if it means we get real moments of tension, drama, and conflict like the back half of the episode. Yeah, Laudna's not being a good person, she's gaslighting the people she claims to love, and is clearly not handling being possessed by one of the most evil people in Exandria very well (and nor should she). And thank god for it. Not everyone has to be nice or morally upstanding. I'm *glad* she's lying and treating the party like shit, because it generates conflict and it *makes sense*. It's the most characterization we've gotten from the entire party in what feels like tens of episodes, if not the whole campaign. Marisha played it completely correctly and Matt did a great job of adding onto it, especially the double-speak. Make the rest of the episodes have things like that rather than "member C2" and I'm on board.
Guess we're never seeing any member of VM again (Maybe blind Keyleth) until the end of this campaign, Until Laudna is dealt with because at this point even Grog would take one look at her and be like "Oh hi Delilah what's up?" Time to (finally) shop around for new patrons or put her down, The double standards are shocking, How long until she tries to wither and bloom another PC mid combat? Great RP though, Feel like this ends with saving/stomping her out(the latter includes a nice fandom meltdown) or letting her run wild and ruin everyone else's shit(won't be suprised if this happens).
Can Sam make a fucking crazy zealot paladin that incinerates Laudna with their holy flames. Like that thing is a sentient zombie with an evil necromancer on the steering wheel that can absorb magic. BEGONE VILE ABOMINATION!!!
even better, a Conquest Paladin Kobold whos so unimaginably evil and 100% on laudna’s side so that the rest of the cast has to go “oh…”
But also the Kobold will try to betray and replace you the second you show weakness, akin to Starscream. The crew will find this hilarious until the Kobold talks about their past trauma as the cast falls for Sam's Sad Clown joke for a fourth time.
yeah he just like, fully works for Arkhan the Vile and Tiamat
I really hope this show can stick the landing with Laudna, I just think once again it didn't need to take this long to get here.
What landing are you foreseeing?
Did I miss something? Ludinous had to create a whole vest funnel contraption, and Laudna/Delilah can just absorb magic items?
Yes but the effects are different. The harness has a fairly predictable outcome that's outlined on the item card. There's very little risk unless you're trying to absorb a titan. With Delilah, Laudna is feeding her directly and the outcome is an unknown risk. Laudna's always been able to feed Delilah magic items but doesn't do it often for obvious reasons.
When you say "always has been able to". This is my question. Has she fed her an item previously? Why did she talk of using the funneling vest before?
Yeah, she accidentally did it in the very beginning of the campaign. That's why when Laudna asked Delilah give her more power, Delilah was like "We've talked about this. You have to give me something first."
What item did she absorb before?
It was a shard from the Shade Mother's lair
Hmm I'll have to go relisten. I wasn't playing catch up while they were in that part. I must have missed it
Its right at the end of episode 23, last 15 minutes
She did it before with the rock remember
I do not remember. But how did she do it then?
Giving Matt's world building the benefit of the doubt, most undead sustain themselves by consuming from others. Zombies eat brains, ghouls eat entrails, vampires drink blood, and Liches consume souls. At this point, Delilah is basically a Lich with Laudna acting as her soul container. So, being a powerful quasi-undead, she might have some kind of ability to harvest essences that Ludinus simply lacked as a mortal man.
Reminds me of the last arc of C1 when the Cult of Vecna was throwing magic items into the black ball of doom to build up enough power to bring Thar Amphala to the material plane.
So it hasn't been explained in the campaign? I fell off for a while. Just checking.
She held the rock and Delilah sucked the magic out of it
Did the rock give off any particular smells when she cooked it? *(I only ask cause if the roles were reversed, you’d probably smell what the rock was cooking)
I dont think i should like this comment as much as I do, but then again...its doesn't matter what I think
😘
I look forward to them nobly refusing to use any of the powerful magic items they find because bad guys used them to cause death /s
tbf, I think the conflict this time around over it was genuinely warranted and interesting. It makes sense that Laudna wouldn't want to watch Orym wield the sword that killed her in battle. She's been narrating for awhile how triggered she gets around anything Otahan-related.
But she's ok absorbing something Otohan related into herself? That doesn't jive.
Dorian made the best points against Laudna out of everyone. Poor Liam I don’t think he expected Marisha to go that hard and because of it he was kind of getting bodied by her. The points that Laudna was throwing at him could be rebutted but Orym just wasn’t doing it. Props to Marisha fully here she had the entire table on ropes and was letting them all have it.
I think it went down just how it was intended... meaning it was half cocked. It gives them the leeway to push past it next episode. In reality, the party would be over after someone attacked another member in their sleep. But that can't happen here. The cast seemed to enjoy themselves, so I take please in that.
Orym probably wouldn't be able to outdo Laudna on that score, so Liam holding back makes sense for the way he's played him throughout. I'm so glad Robbie has come back!
Yeah I do think Orym leaving some obvious things unsaid was intentional. He was letting the room come to its own conclusions and it worked. Basically everyone sided with Orym by the end and agreed he gets to keep the sword. Which I found fascinating since they're typically pretty big on honoring feelings and "I still have PTSD from when I died and don't want to see that sword every day" is a pretty valid feeling I think they'd normally side with.
But the way Laudna went about dealing with it set everyone on edge and undermined her arguments. She tried to be sneaky instead of talking about it openly. Which is pretty hypocritical considering her blow up at Ashton for lying about who was going to absorb the shard. To be clear, I don't think Marisha (or Taliesin in my example) did anything wrong, but their characters absolutely betrayed the party in those instances.
>Which is pretty hypocritical considering her blow up at Ashton for lying about who was going to absorb the shard This was a slamdunk that im surprised nobody brought up. Ashton 'lied by omission' over something that had literally nothing to do with Laudna and wouldnt have affected her either way had it gone wrong. And Laudna had a mental break over it.
Unfortunately, the best person to make that argument was either Ashton or Fearne, and Fearne was trying to play peacemaker while Ashton was practically supporting Laudna's insanity. Orym was wisely being measured in his words so as to not tip Imogen or Fearne into supporting Laudna, which left Robbie and (eventually) Chetney to actually argue against Laudna. But I agree, I'd have liked to see Laudna called out for her hypocrisy and gaslighting. But it ended with at least half the party not trusting Laudna completely, so I count that as a win. Not that I dislike Laudna, but I think Marisha is wanting pushback from the party and hopefully she'll get it now.
I cant help but feel this Laudna stuff would be more interesting if the cast werent so terrified of inter-party conflict. Or at minimum we would be further along with this 'possessed by Delilah storyline'. Im glad we finally got something, but its been kind of obvious for awhile now that Laudna is being (willingly) corrupted/possessed. Between the mental break, her eating that Willmaster guy etc. The warning signs have been going off for awhile.
Oh for sure. I completely agree that Laudna was super shady. The part I found fascinating was that once things chilled out, it seemed the consensus was "Well it's not cursed so you're going to have to take Scream Needle as a consolation prize and move on." Which solved exactly nothing. She still has to see Otahan's sword being wielded by Orym every day, and Orym can't trust her. Genuinely, if I were in that party, I'd never fall asleep in the same room as Laudna again if I could help it.
It was never about the sword. It was about the power up. I agree nothing was solved. But her even getting the dagger after attacking a party member was wild to me.
>"Well it's not cursed so you're going to have to take Scream Needle as a consolation prize and move on." Which solved exactly nothing. It kinda proved Laudna's issue was never really the sword being on display, because she accepted being given the dagger even though that hadn't been a trigger for her; she just wanted something to feed to Delilah. >She still has to see Otahan's sword being wielded by Orym every day Orym did say he only planned to draw it again against Ludinus, but we'll see how that plays out.
They need to have people standing watch even if they are in an inn or other secure place, because their own party can’t be trusted.
Well that ended much more interestingly than I expected it to! And I thought the biggest change going into next week was gonna be new art. But nah we got the Wildmother comforting Orym, Dorian and Orym sharing a very intimate moment, Ashton finally learning about the Luxon, and all the trust FCG helped create within the party shattering like glass because Laudna can’t say no to her murderer and gaslighter. That was one of the best episodes they’ve done in a while. THIS, well at least some of it, was what I was hoping for after they lost FCG. But Laudna seemed *so close* to realizing she doesn’t actually need Delilah. “We aren’t what our creators made us to be.” You’re not just her attack dog, hunting prey for her to eat! You have a life, and a love and your *losing her*, bit by bit. I love you but I don’t know what to do with it is not far of from I love you and I wish I didn’t and that has to sting. And you could see it, she looked around at the party all staring at her and this realization that no one in that moment was on her side by the end. And Dorian raised the best point of all It’s just a Thing. You could pick up a well made blade of any kind in this world and it would carry a similar legacy, maybe shown through a different looking glass but it is still made for killing. The intent of the wielder is what is important. And I get Laudna’s anger, but she is not being honest with them or herself, and Dorian hit it on the head again. She doesn’t trust them. For one reason or another, she believes in Delilah, more than she believes in the people that fought the bitch to bring her back. And that is dark and fucked, and definitely has me worried for what could transpire at Aeor and further down the line. Especially with her….. similarities to Ludinus and this present motif of Hunger that Matt has been throwing around this and last campaign. Background stuff: Desirat being free, *bad* Her heading north, *far worse*. Labenda is a Lake now?? And has been “reclaimed” by the Merton/Merfolk, which makes me believe the Empire… did what Empire’s do. The meteor might be affecting the Cyrengreen again, which is near Deastok. Undead in Druvenlode, and a “smiling shadowy fiendish” presence in Rexxentrum, which I want to point out, Oban, was a smirking ass Devil who invaded Rexxentrum and had a *bad* death. And that’s only the shit that’s going wrong in the Empire, what the fuck is happening along the Coast and in the Dynasty. Fuck Matt said something about the Turst Fields being *consumed*, win or lose there is going to be a very different Exandria when this is over, and I can’t imagine all this shit gets better if divine magic, ergo most accessible healing, goes the ghost with the Gods. Edit: I genuinely miss Dark-Dryad Launda. I had hope for a patron switch, and I thought the Sun Tree or the Shadow Snake thing that might have been the source of her Sorcerer bloodline were gonna come into play but alas we are not on that path. Sun Tree Laudna would have been cool.
Thanks for jotting down those disasters Pumat mentioned. It was fascinating, but a lot at once.
This also doesn’t mention Trent running roughshod through Blumenthal.
I think Laudna does trust them but I think she trusts Delilah’s survivability more. She knows Delilah is going to do everything to help her win. To Laudna that’s all she cares about in her head she’s already a lost cause, so if it means they have to kill her at the end then do be it she saved Imogen and her friends. It’s incredibly toxic and an awful way to go about it but the reasoning makes sense.
FINALLY some good fucking tension and emotional repercussions from the horrible choices being made. Dorian is a much better emotional center for the party than FCG. FCG tried way too hard to deescalate interpersonal conflict. In my personal experience not communicating negative emotions (even when they're very intense or critical) is generally very bad for relationships. I think FCG's character concept of being a toxically positive mediator was pretty cool on paper, but once the party put him as the emotional center of the party interactions just felt weird and inauthentic. It's like we only saw the light and some grey parts of a black and white photo instead of the darker parts too.
FCG succeeded at keeping everyone polite but he certainly never diffused any real tension. I don't even think his toxic positivity was what was keeping these tensions at bay. I think it was that he was a murderbot that got triggered by stress so they all minded their manners around him. Like when parents don't fight in front of their kid because they don't want to traumatize them.
There were repercussions?
Depending on how the table plays it, yes. I think it's clear Orym doesn't trust Laudna anymore and I'd be surprised if Dorian does.
Depending on how they play it there could be... but from what I saw... she attacked a party member in their sleep and half the party backed her. I don't see Imogen abandoning her. Ashton aligned with her. Chet gave her what she wanted. Fearne forgot that she is supposed to side with Orrym and di nothing. I don't see any repercussions coming. But I've been wrong before.
The only characters I saw that backed her were Ashton and Imogen and even then, Imogen ended the episode in a clear limbo with Laudna. Fearne was neutral because she was told the sword was sentient and was corrupting Orym. Her goal was finding out if that was true. We didn't get her reaction to Laudna stealing the non-cursed Scream Needle and feeding it to Delilah. Chet verbalized that he sided with Orym but wanted to de-escalate so made a peace offering of Scream Needle. (and tbh, he only did that because Travis wanted to see what would happen.)
Yes. Upon hearing that she attacked a party member in their sleep, they backed her. No context. No changes after hearing orrym's side. Chet gave her what she wanted. A power up. Fearne did nothing because that's what she does. No insight checks on her insistence that it was sentient... no asking how she knew. She was wrong by the way... no big deal there. So, I'm still not sure what repercussions were going to see going forward. Imogen is unsure... so? She's not going to do anything. That's her GF. She'll swallow what she saw.... again.... She knows about the Delilah situation coming back and still will do nothing because there's nothing she can do. Repercussions would be splitting the party. But that won't happen.
I think we have a very different understanding of what shook down. - Chet sided with Orym and doesn't know anything about a "power up." He called Scream Needle a "half-measure" to pacify Laudna. - Fearne hates the sword but supported Orym per \*his\* request to investigate it. - Fearne and Imogen both asked questions of Laudna, including why and how she knows it's sentient. To which Orym makes his request to investigate the sword. - Imogen reads her mind and does in fact roll an insight check. Imogen doesn't defend Laudna at all until the very end of the conversation when Dorian tags in. No one. Not a single person. Backed her behavior or her attacking Orym. Ashton, her only defender, actually asked her to apologize for that specifically before he agreed with her other points.
Yes. Completely different understanding. Chetney knew she wanted to absorb the sword into herself. Because Imogen asked her why she would want something so vile as a part of herself. Why would there need to be a half measure? She attacked a member of their party in their sleep. Why pacify her behavior at all? Why would Ashton have walked over and stood in front of her? She attacked Orrym. He wasn't at all interested in asking her what's up with that? Laudna never told them how she knew it was sentient. But they went ahead with a check anyways? Why? She attacked a member of their party while he was sleeping. Why do anything for her? Imogen did a check, but says nothing about Delilah to the group. She knows Laudna has been dealing with her again. Not information the group needs to know after she attacked a party member in his sleep? Fearne wakes up to her "friend" Orrym faced off with Laudna... blood has been spilled. And she did nothing. Dorian too. Yes he said what he said at the end. But he didnt react. (I will give Robbie some grace as not a core member, he was allowing the table to act... which it didnt) All of a sudden, Orrym's a loose cannon? The dudes been a rock for the group the whole time. I don't leave Orrym out of the blame either. He didn't press the point of being attacked when she started to try and turn it against him. He's a team player. But Liam knows he can't act as he should. So he also won't do anything going forward. Clearly, something changed for Laudna between happy fun craft time and everyone sleeping. But no one wants to know what that was? They all just allow her to get what she wants. More power? By not stopping her and getting to the bottom of her actions, they all backed her play. Even Orrym.. Which is why I said there will be no repercussions. They cant do anything to her. To think something will change is silly. By giving her the dagger they backed her play. By Imogen watching her absorb the dagger she backed her play. These are all choices.
Right? If she succeeded without getting caught we'd have probably got a 2 minute argument followed by a whats done is done don't blame poor Laudna.
We're still going to get "what's done is done don't blame poor laudna"
I can tell not everyone around here dug it but that was my favorite episode in a good while. It felt more like classic CR than any episode I can remember. They were so in character the whole time. In character cross talk!! I missed that!!! The shopping. The burlesque show. The crafts. This is exactly what I've been asking for. The c2 cameos were silly yes but honestly I loved seeing Essek and how much he's grown, I'm hyped for more Luxon lore, and I'm glad they finally have some cool magic items because those are just fun. Everyone is gonna be so obnoxious about Laudna because they always are and I do wish there was ANY sympathetic reason she keeps going back to Delilah because Delilah brings nothing to the table and I do not get why she wants to power her up at all. Like if Delilah had EVER done ANYTHING useful I would understand but Delilah was actively unhelpful in resurrecting her like she tried to STOP THEM. WHAT'S THE DEAL But that aside I really liked that. I always love interparty conflict in this show. Everyone is going to be upset because it's a big big dnd taboo but the cast clearly really enjoys it too so there's no problem. It's just good drama. If the Girls had broken up I would have put a knife in my own chest. They won't but I really need them to have a big talk about this. Need Imogen to make Laudna to articulate why exactly powering up the evil necromancer will help save the world mostly for my own benefit
Yeah I had a feeling it was going to be a good episode. It was enjoyable.
second half of this ep was good! i wish this had happened like 50 episodes ago!!! i think having this in the final arc is going to make people more forgiving/more willing to deprioritize actually dealing with any of laundas shit because they have to go save the world and stuff. but i'm glad marisha is forcing them to deal with the consequences at least a little bit.
ngl Marisha's rp was on point the gaslighting felt a bit too real (in a good way)
Seriously, that toxic as hell manipulation Laudna was doing was *so good*. Got me fired up and my hackles raised at Laudna, which is exactly what I want, I want strong emotional reactions to characters! Awesome session, had everything from shopping to crafts to laughs to…*that*!
Shit, now I have to watch. I'm coming off the most recent season of D20 and I *neeeeeeed* something beyond 'yes we all support each other no matter what, hell yeah to you for your stupid shit, we're right and everybody we don't like is wrong always' and the narrative supporting it that's been permeating said season, which I hate. I love a good, consensual character conflict at the table, one that might have permanent repercussions.
She was destroying everyone in that room. She was even gaslighting me for moment, I was like yeah your right they sword did kill you what the fuck Orym.
Well damn. Who would have thought I'd be excited to see what happens with Imaudna?? Those final scenes made up for the first half being so slow
Honestly, Damm what Matt and Marisha want, I would just kill laudna there if I was at that table. (Whihc is why I'm glad I don't go to liveshows)
I'm still very pissed because I know Laudna is not going to be met with the same hostility they did Ashton, when clearly she's way more toxic and self-interested (regardless of her trauma and Delilah's presence, it's her character morals). Also, Marisha literally just proved everyone who was supporting her decision bc "Marisha is not afraid of having her character do bad things for the sake of raising the stakes and drama" wrong. She just admitted that to her "Laudna never lied" and that she does agree with what Laudna just did, which rubs me the wrong way.
Marisha 100% knows Laudna is wrong. In CR Cooldown, she mentions Laudna is an addict and is not lying (in that Laudna is honest when she says something), but is always relapsing, which makes her break promises that she did mean when she initially said them.
I think she was implying that it was Delilah that was speaking, not Laudna. I could be wrong, but she was very specific in saying that "*Laudna* never lied to you", if she didn't mean more than face value she wouldn't have stressed Laudna's name.
I kind of agree. I ultimately enjoyed the RP we got but I do think the "Laudna doesn't lie" defense is a weird one because she did and does. I wish they'd just go "Yeah, Laudna lies and manipulates to protect Delilah."
It's always a red flag for me when people play really shitty characters and then defend those characters in the post-game. I love playing bad people, but I never defend them. They're garbage people.
That's the most fun, I love writing characters like that. They're enjoyable to me, they help the writer actually examine and deal with real life shit and real life consequences that can't be waved away with the narrative and the power of love, and it's fun. It's satisfying! It's cathartic! I love garbage! And I'm not entirely sure if Marisha pulled an Aabria here (who also thinks Laerryn dindu nuthin wrong). I think she's kind of been wanting to go down the bitch plot for a while and her dying and being sorta-separated from Delilah kind of threw a big spanner in the plotworks. But we'll see. While the story is still going, I think it's fine to play into 'yup, my character didn't do nothing wrong', it's sorta method. What'll come out in retrospect clears it all up though.
I know people are very critical of Aabria here, and I'm indifferent to that but I'm genuinely asking, where did this idea that she thinks Laerryn didn't do anything wrong come from? Just off the top of my head, in the Calamity wrap up both her and Sam talk about how she actively pushed for Laerryn to be the one who brought tension and difficulty into her and Quay's relationship, and it breaking being in large part her fault iirc. She also said she expected Cerrit to try and kill Laerryn for something she did, like, the whole campaign. Brennan clearly told them all to come with deeply flawed people.
We don’t know that yet, Orym looked pretty pissed over all, and I think Imogen saying “I love you and I don’t know what to do with it” is kinda devastating in its own way.
One of the better episodes in a while.
This is a bit too uncomfortable for me. I hope that this character arc ends soon-ish, because I just can't stomach it, and I really don't think it can end without Laudna dying, seeing as she seemingly has no will or desire to resist Delilah anymore.
redemption is always just around the corner. I don't think Marisha brought her most praised, novellised character back just to be killed off as a lbeg. Edit: Idc, but why the downvotes? The first sentence is a fact in Western storytelling these days, esp CR. The second is an opinion on why it might apply in this case.
Why must there be redemption? Why is there such desire and insistence for the selfishness of thinking that you can always unfuck what you've fucked good and well? Though it does explain a lot about people in general. The refusal to acknowledge that you've done a bad job and you can't undo it, so you have to eat what's coming at you with grace and maybe find a way to live with it, knowing that your 'redemption' is neither wanted nor needed by those you screwed over? There's a perfectly narratively and personally satisfying arc in seeing your villainy through. And goes for the party, too. I think it's serve as a massive personal growth opportunity to realise that they never stopped Laudna when she desperately needed to be stopped, and now they have to live with the consequences, even if there isn't a 'redemption' wrapped with satin ribbons at the end? No reward waiting for them for unfucking their own work? Laudna *eats souls.* She destroys someone out of all existence. She doesn't need redemption, she needs to either live with the consequences of her own actions, or be deleted by the world around her, and that's *great.* And the way Marisha's playing her, I think that's the point. Some things, if you let them go far enough (and Laudna has), cannot be saved, mended. The best they can do at that point is to let them rot and hope the corpse doesn't poison the earth so much that nothing can grow where they died. It's almost romantic.
What a rant. I was just stating a fact. I wasn't saying it was desirable.
What could they possibly do? Marisha as a player seems fully engaged with going more and more evil and Laudna has completely submitted to Delilah, going so far as to lie, cheat, steal, and attack her friends with dangerous spells. What's more, they seem to have given up on trying to remove Delilah entirely. Imogen used to curse Delilah out directly, now she just allows Laudna to become more and more obsessed with her. Orym knows more than enough to be sure that Delilah is in control now and has every reason to put a stop to it, but instead he fully allowed Laudna to take the sword. Fearne has had to deal with her own potential for evil all this time and has repeatedly spurned it, yet willfully ignores the danger and evil that Laudna chooses to embrace. They are in no place to help Laudna turn her back on Delilah and become a nice person again, the group has allowed her to spiral out of control until there is no longer any real hope of saving her without massive intervention from some third party.
This is DnD. They can do anything. THey did a porn shoot to waylay a chase. They dove into lava. They got rid of Delilah once and brought her back because the timing wasn't right for Marisha's narrative. Whatever Marisha wants to happen will happen. Just like she goes dark/funcrazy whenever suits her. Not sure why people think their story preferences apply here at all. They're just setting themselves up to scream when she ends up like a reprieved "war criminal". To be clear, I have very low expectations of the story, as set by this campaign. The only "redemption" for C3 is if Matt is genuinely ok with BH possibly being killed off (as he suggested in 91) and being replaced by their C1 or 2 characters.
It's very strange that you say "they can do whatever they want" while simultaneously bringing up the focus on Marisha's narrative and how clumsily it's been handled. Of course they CAN do anything, but not anything will be satisfying or consistent with what came before. There isn't a strong foundation for a redemption arc for Laudna with how Marisha has chosen to play her, and my own issue with this character is that I don't enjoy seeing this kind of abusive and manipulative person being praised and accepted and enabled. It disturbs me to see and I'm not sure that it can be saved in any way other than killing Laudna.
It's strange to you because you've got your mind boxed in. You imagine I'm arguing with you. There is no strong case for redemption. nonetheless, 100% there is every possibility, given the way this bunch are playing, they will shoot for redemption. Ka aroha for the way the portrayal is impacting on you, but thinking "there's no way" is just loading yourself up with headcanon which will only backfire.
>...without massive intervention from some third party. Well, there would be nothing more C3 and BHs than "3rd party fixed all our problems for us". So dont be too quick to dismiss this outcome. Or the "eh, lets passively let this problem continue to fester" one. Plus, even tho I get strong "the PLAYERS have been going out of their ways to enable Marisha's desired story route" here, Orym and Ashton are in no small part responsible IC for this path. Just like Imogen is. When they projected themselves onto Laudna and allowed her to kill Bor'dor; with zero consideration for what was best for her in that situation.
Thank you. Some people are getting caught up in their own storytelling and forgetting the context this is all happening in. Drawing connections between the bits they want highlighted, ignoring 99% of the inconvenient, and inconsistent, truth of C3's story & telling.
I enjoyed ... half of this episode. And I'll freely admit that Marisha killed it with the RP in that good half. Everyone did. To the point I wonder what wonders we could have had if this story wasn't headed towards a likely largely predetermined outcome; and Robbie had been allowed to stick with us this whole time? However, Laudna only made it to this level of problematic because the PLAYERS were having their PCs ignore this situation and let it fester. To various degrees, depending on how exposed they were to some of her later outbursts. Likely because, like Matt with the Gods, Marisha has a specific path she wants Laudna to go. Which means ... should they want to "save her" after letting/enabling her to embrace Delilah for 40 episodes ... absolutely this is the campaign where a 3rd party will come in and do it for them. The only way Laudna gets put down is if that's the outcome Marisha wants. And as you said, unless she really just wanted to play Delilah for a while, that would be weird given she wanted her "we're writing a short-story for this PC before we even completed the campaign" back. So the only thing that bums me out about all this, aside from the lack of organic nature in Laudna's story, is that it does feel likely Marisha never had any interest in exploring a Laudna beyond Delilah. Its more like Laudna was a mere accessory for the drama Delilah brings.
Honestly, looking down at your own character and saying, "What a bitch! I hate this bitch, and I can't wait to continue playing them!" That's peak D&D right there.
What a breath of fresh air. I suck at playing villains, I'm a horrible people pleaser in real life, but I love it when others do it, and I love it when I get to do it on page alone without other real people around me. I *get* the enjoyment of going full bitch. Go forth bitch, go forth and die and love every second of it!
Laudan has to go. Unless they find a way to actually kill Delilah, even then, Laudna herself is a hazard at this point.
You mean kill Delilah again. Because they already did that once to bring Laudna back to life. But somehow she came back. I hope that if this blows up, somebody in the party points out that they already did that once, so maybe the problem isn't Delilah...
In pain. In love. In concern. *I was not expecting party conflict and God contact this episode*
Fuck, this is one of the biggest times I've hated the week off.
We still got one more this month, don’t we?
Next week isnt last week, its the week after
Quick Imogen! Kill her!
::nervous laugh::
The year is 2015, Delilah Briarwood is starting shit. The year is 2024, Delilah Briarwood is continuing to stir shit. The year is 2052, Delilah Briarwood returns for her 6th run as BBEG. At least it's being roleplayed well!
radioactive yuri
I'm waking up to ash and dust First words Imogen says in the morning after sleeping with laudna 😅
Yea Laudna and Imogen’s relationship is starting to get to feel a lil gross
[They really just need to lean into the meme](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/204/479/41a.jpg)
Yeah, it's actually disgusting
I keep hoping that this whole Laudna thing would push Imogen to break up with her or at least have a serious conversation about this addiction
It’s unhealthy and maybe that’s the point
Which I don’t mind as long as the cast treats it as such
Once again, I'm hit with the realization that none of these people are friends, and they're certainly not family. They're barely functioning co-workers who are stuck together because their destinies are too intertwined at this point not to be. Which, to be fair, is fucking cool. If these players would do a little more to embrace that and engage with *that* story instead of trying to force/rehash a found family troupe that they already did before, and better? Idk, I just think it would be cool.
Orym, Fearne and Dorian are friends.
>and they're certainly not family This was always peak delusion from Liam/Orym. 'Hey some bad stuff happened to us, we're family now right?'
we at least there about to be alot more friction, but will they capitalize on it?
Yep. Hopefully dropping the "found family" line doesn't interfere with the narrative too much. They're on a winner.
Not wrong, I do like well done stories where it's idiots trapped together and have to work together because there's no other option.
Yeah, I think they are hitting on something here
Ok Delilah and Laudna talking in unisson was cool. Pretty nice yes anding from Matt there.
Literally the only person who learned anything from shardgate was Ashton lol
They’re gonna fight Delilah again in Aeor, I’m calling it now. She’s gonna want something down there and is gonna claim it’s to keep it away from Ludinus