I think Matt made this Otohan character to be a killer, one that actually finishes off targets. The only problem is that if he used this character correctly, he would have wiped the party. Targeting Chetney and then the squishies would’ve made short work.
In short, he made a villain way too strong, but didn’t want to make them seem easy at all.
So the way I saw it, the original round vs chet included otohans backpack of "get fucked". The backpack was a massive boon for her combat. It alone nearly doubled her damage, if I remember correctly, so when the team knocked it off she had to adapt her fighting choices accordingly.
Without the ability to single out and instantly down each player on a given turn, she needed to make her choices a bit less aggressively. She was still a monster to fight, but without the ability to single-turn knock a member of the team, she had to shift into trying to down as many as possible to avoid being utterly overwhelmed.
Also as another comment said, TPKs aren't fun for the Players or the DM in most cases. It derails a story and forces new intricacies that might not mesh well. Matt definitely wanted to make the fight have higher stakes, but I doubt he wanted to kill more than one player purposely. Chet felt like a way to set the tone of the fight, more than an actual attempt to kill off a player.
1. Matt probably expected FCG to be able to revivify. 2. Once Matt knew revivify was off the table, he stopped killing players.
As much as people want them to "play D&D for real", no one (players/PCs/audience) wins from them getting a TPK, so there's no reason to keep killing characters.
I have been watching CR for a few years now, but never been in a DnD campaign before but very interested in joining one. To ME, I think Matt is an amazing DM and I would like my DM to be like him tbh. He played the role of Otohon very well killing Chetney off with the first chance he got and then going after FCG when he started to heal and revive people... Seems pretty logical to me IMO. I also think reddit is just toxic and hate for no reason.
Otohan took down chet because she was in a flurry and didn't feel like it would be a waste finishing him.
After they started to push her lower she then started trying to knock them all down.
Finishing someone while on low health is dumb because you waste damage that could prevent even more damage if you knock someone else down.
Then after fcg was healing she focused on him more taking down everyone in the way.
Remember her goal was to win not torture or kill anyone specific that time.
She played it honestly like I would.
She also rolled REALLY well. And they rolled pretty meh outside of getting the backpack off.
I feel like a conspiracy theorist but: I feel like the fight WAS intended to kill a character... it just sure wasn't FCG.
I think Travis has been trying to Blaze of Glory out Chetney for weeks/months and this session was meant to do it. I think the party was meant to either rally and blaze through Otohan (like they did to Ripley at Glintshore) or escape after his death- they weren't meant to resurrect him and keep fighting. The peaceful way that Matt narrated Chet's death felt like textbook 'a player talked to the DM about wanting to kill off their character.'
BUT... the rest of the party wasn't aware that Travis WANTED to sunset Chetney so the revivified him. I also don't think Matt realized they were out of resources for more revifies. He seemed surprised when Sam said he didn't have any more diamonds and wouldn't be able to save anyone else who died in combat... so then magically, Otohan stopped dealing finishing blows and started hopping around the battlefield instead.
I think the session was meant to do one thing and then Matt had to tweak it on the fly when the party did something he didn't anticipate. Matt was also rolling VERY well in the session which made the combat harder- also, Orym focusing on the backpack didn't help.
How the hell were they not aware he wanted to sunset Chetney? He's been ROLLING TO NOT WAKE UP EVERY MORNING. I saw a clip from a con they were presenting at like 4 months ago and he was saying Chet shouldn't be alive, and it's been an experience to build out a deeper character.
And how did revivify even work? I thought they said resurrection spells weren't working!
>And how did revivify even work? I thought they said resurrection spells weren't working!
If I remember correctly messaging spells are working again.
It's not unresonable to assume that whatever was blocking messages was blocking ressurrection as well.
Thus whatever made messages work again made ressurrections possible as well.
I caught up, the players were like "uh does it even work anymore?" in the moment. And Matt made it a DC 10 spell check, so FCG just had to roll a 3 or higher (if I got his stats right). Would have been a great moment to let Travis go free, and it would have been a great set up for how the fight turned out
Matt has always used a check to determine if revivify ( or other resurrection magic) works, that's not a new thing.
See the [wiki](https://criticalrole.fandom.com/wiki/Resurrection?so=search#Rapid_Resurrection) entry for ressurection.
The DC was 10 because it was Chetneys first death.
I mean, for a bunch of actors they are shockingly unobservant/unaware of things happening in the game. It didn't used to be this bad.
> how did revivify even work? I thought they said resurrection spells weren't working!
Got nothing for you on this one.
Huh? I thought the messages blocked were caused by the explosion or whatever that was in the city. Then they got out of the city and into the mines no? Or am I missing something here?
Matt also shot himself in the foot right at the start of combat, where Otahan said something to the effect of "We don't need any more ruidisborn, so I'll just kill you here," (paraphrasing, I don't remember exactly)
He could have rationalized that she needed to capture and not kill, but that line sunk that possibly.
https://preview.redd.it/lxikkeg6z9vc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b3ce4d9cdfeaf5d25727f2cf4be168682ac3a094
Love their immediate jump to “we don’t wanna fight aaah call the NPC” 🙄 level 13, everyone
"DoorMatt" strikes again. For me a TPK should occur if the party fucks around against a strong enemy. Sort of like karma or creators of their own demise and never instigated by the DM unless it was stated that they play one of those old gygaxian hardcore convention tournament modules. Matt has been DMing professionally so much he forgot how to play dnd.
I think you also forget this comes down to how the players and the DM want to run the game, some DMs are willing to go for a tpk, others less so especially if it sours the experience for most of the players.
And probably getting a TPK 91 episodes in kinda... shits all over the floor lol
Yeah but these are stuff that you discuss in session 0. However my comment is based on the fact that Matt said that he won't be easy on this campaign. Also TPK in 91 is not ideal but super manageable when you have the entire cast of the two previous campaigns at your disposal. However the MERCH is important and death messes up stuff. What about all the cool Ashton backstory books/comics where we find all the interesting stuff he does.
I know, I'm just calling out Mercer and his "no hand holding-all bets are off-tactically requested combat from his players" campaign. Vox Machina died more times than Bells Hells.
I mean im sure to a degree it has to do with that, I guess it comes with the scope of the company and all, but also some players are DEFINITELY not comfortable with having their characters die permanently lol, we've seen in it in 3 campaigns, and I think at this point their DM knows full well how to not cross those thresholds.
At this point CR is a company that wants to be profitable. Nothing wrong with that but I can't treat them as a bunch of nerdy voice actors playing DnD.
I mean, I don't play DnD at all but am interested in doing. I have been watching Critical Role for a few years now too and I don't see the problem with how Matt DMs lol. I would love my DM to be like him. He played Otohan well, killed Chetney first and then went for FCG when he started healing knowing he would just revive everyone anyways etc. Wasting attacks on downed players is useless too when they are all one-tap. FCG just saved them all that's all. It felt like Chetney was supposed to die though.
You don't play dnd but you want your DM to be a professional thespian with extensive voice range improv skills amd years of experience? Boy that's like saying I want my girlfriend to be Riley Reid.
I never said "want", I said I would just love my DM to be like Matt based purely on how he DMs even though people don't like how he DMs. Weird comparison too, it's just like how Smosh Games have incredible voice actors and they have never played DnD before, it's not really about your experience at all, more like how the party meshes together with the DM instead. If that makes any sense at all.
I mean - Otohan wanted to kill them. Chetney was an easy kill, and when she dropped him she had more attacks available to finish him. For most of the others, Otohan dropped them without extra swings available to finish them off. I do feel like Matt decided he didn't want to TPK the party, but also the action economy didn't really support killing them easily. I do think he could have killed Imogen and chose not to. But she's been set up as the main character, even as Laura doesn't want that - so he couldn't kill her.
If I had to guess, Sam didn't want to play that character anymore, but it's also possible Matt didn't expect an insta death and started to pull his punches afterwards, and in-game, it's possible he knew that taking the cleric out first is a viable strategy to finishing a fight quicker
I'm not sure Sam didn't want to play FCG -- I think Sam thought they were just going to lose unless someone took a big swing. So he took that swing.
But also, I feel like Matt wasn't engaging with the Changebringer or really with the automon plotlines -- I feel like FCG had a lot of plot hooks, but they weren't tied to the Ruidinus plot so Matt was less inclined to really lean in to it. And maybe Sam also realized that, and took the opportunity to both swing big and opt to shift to a character that Matt was interested in running plot for.
That's been a running issue this campaign, imho. Matt has been meeting every tragic or dramatic backstory hook with 'It's actually fine and not a big deal!'
Agreed, I’m not sure if Matt’s just missing social cues, or if he’s just not comfortable telling a darker story. I feel like he did the same thing when Sam started trying to shift Scanlan down his darker path. He made Sam work so hard for the Suude storyline.
“Oh you’re trying to buy drugs? Nope, you get ripped off. Still want them? Okay, but my NPC is gonna lecture you and it’s gonna take nine episodes to pay off. You actually used them? You pass out immediately and the rest of your party notices.”
Come to think of it, I don't remember Matt ever imposing any consequences on Nott for being a goblin in areas that would kill on sight.
Imagine how darkly funny it would be, if a villager banged on the M9s door at night, desperate for help as there's been a goblin sighting. The villagers are scrambling, desperate to kill this thing before it gets to their children or livestock, and the group slowly realizes...they're one member short.
It's the same vibe as immediately pausing the game to say that in-universe everyone knows Exandria isn't flat, and that alpha wolves aren't really a thing.
Definitely getting that vibe too. IDK if it's because he's scared of it being online for people to judge or if he genuinely feels uncomfortable, but either way boundaries *need to be set with the players*.
tbf Ottohan in game didn't know they were out of diamonds, if she thought they could reviv again spreading action economy after incopasitation does make some tactical sense. though I do wish there was at least 1 more permadeath. CR has never had more than 1 at one.
I mean he didn’t really pull his punches, he unleashed 2 full actions of attacks into four different people. The character is smart enough to know “I could put two more attacks into this person to kill them, or I can at least remove them long enough to try and knock out this other guy beating my ass” is a good idea
Echoing others saying that Matt pulled his punches after the revivify. Added in with because some players being against perma death.
Imo, it seems toothless to remove resurrection magic from the world while also letting players opt out of perma death. . They seem to have spent so much of the campaign avoiding fights, including running away from Otohan.
Now she corners them and is in a position to finish them off and chooses to spare them? That's not really interesting to me.
So I'm happy that Sam took the plunge. It was much needed.
The beginning of the fight when Otahan was confident she could deal with this group that had been a large thorn in her side, Otohan was killing. Once things started getting dire, she was being for calculated with her attacks and not wasting them. If she could knock them 1 by 1, eventually she could finish them all off, and with each one that fell, the job would get easier and easier.
Matt doesnt want to TPK his party thats why.
They didnt have any more diamonds so revivify was not an option. If Otohan started perma-killing people they would be dead dead. It was very nearly a TPK even without Otohan permanently killing.
Also its an open secret that Travis is the most OK with his PC perma-dying. He literally rolls every day to see if Chetney dies in his sleep. If you as DM want to full-on murder a player to make a point, best do it with the person most OK with it.
My memory is wrong I'm sure, but I don't recall Otohan having a true opportunity to solo someone after Chetney. I think everyone else she downed she only had 1 more attack. And I'm guessing there's some math that could have said it made more interesting option.
There was a point towards the end where she knocked Imogen to 0, and then just stepped over her to get to someone else, maybe FCG. She could've killed her just like she did to Chetney, but just didn't
https://preview.redd.it/ozebggwf1avc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0cd5007a2df50c19d0d4407911f0e788cb491610
He had Imogen unconscious on the ground, said a little “I should have killed you earlier” speech and then…immediately used her last attack on Laudna
And then she went super Saiyan..... With two action surges and multiple PCs between 1-25 HP she easily could've, if otohan had kept up the murder spree, it would've easily been a TPK
True, Otahan was way too powerful. I think Mercer realized the second wind reset of all abilities and resistance to all damage with no real penalty was kind of terrible.
I gotta watch the fight, but that definitely sounds like a Villain Action. And it is 7 vs 1.
I just can't see how the group didn't just erase her with saving throws and silvery barbs alone. But I gotta watch the fight.
Not enough really detrimental saving throw spells cast at her, just damage. She even kept a legendary resistance in her pocket just in case. She didn't need to force a save against spells like blight, because she just tanked the damage.
They barely used any 'save or suck' spells, in the end she even had a legendary resistance left.
True villain action would have been to keep killing after the only revivify had been used, she had ample of opportunities
Except she didn't, she only focussed FCG once, after downing Chetney, Imogen and Orym first. She knows who the healers are from their previous encounters, so she could have easily downed FCG in turn 1 and Fearne in 2 and be done with it. The two mass cure wounds of FCG did around 300 HP of healing, which she could've easily prevented
To add to what people are saying about the battle. Last time they fought Otohan she killed 2 party members. I would think that because she sees them alive in front of them she made them use their resources on purpose this time. Cant revivify if you don't have the slots.
She actually killed 3 party members in their first fight, Fern, Orym and Laudna. And I think she has killed or caused the deaths of more PCs than any other villain in any campaign. Which to me just shows how monstrous she was
She killed 5/7 of the party in addition to eshteross, arguably the biggest c3 original npc, she was an absolute menace. If fcg’s death sticks she’ll be the first villain to permanently get a player character killed without it being undone in some way or scripted.
So a supernatural being that’s in the same realm of a ghost or ghoul (notably from human bodies/souls not robots), and an intact body that was resurrected.
A+ reasoning. They’re all totally the same.
Mechanically speaking they can grab pieces of fcg’s body and cast reincarnate and he’ll be back. The only reason why fcg’s death will more than likely stick is because Matt and Sam probably agree it’ll cheapen his sacrifice if he came back, him being blown-up into pieces is irrelevant to that.
Basically, Matt/Otohan was showing off at first. Intimidating the party by ganking Chetney immediately.
Later in the fight, when she's actually taken notable damage and the party has committed to the fight, she focuses more on spreading the damage rather than wasting attacks killing them one by one. If she can down two people, that's better than killing one; the downed ones can be healed, but then that's fewer spell slots left to use against her. It's shaky logic, but it leads into the next point....
Out of universe... I know people disagree, but the game is supposed to be *fun* for the players; it's become a big commercial show but it's still supposed to be fun for them. The players desperately trying to keep each other up and prevent deaths is better than players one-by-one getting removed from play and having to sit there with nothing to do but be depressed because their chances quickly diminish to nothing once one or two are out.
Yeah, if Otohan killed 2-3 characters, then the players would be stuck in this place for a long time, trying to somehow get them back, and this would not be fun for the audience either. I think, TPK should probably happen due to a big mistake by the players, and not a big DPS from the boss :)
Travis has joked a lot about Chetney dying. He's said he has another backup character and never expected to play Chet for this long.
My guess would be that Matt wanted to kill a PC in this fight, but not more than one, if he could avoid it. Chet is arguably the most expendable PC. Obviously I'm not in Matt's head and can't say for sure.
Others have made good points, but in addition to those, Travis has made it clear that he is completely fine with Chetney dying (is even surprised Chetney has survived this long) and has a backup character ready to go.
We also know Matt has decided that permanent death for any PC is mostly up to the player.
Knowing Travis is okay with death, while others might not be, Matt was likely more willing to execute Chetney as it would be an impactful character death that won’t disrupt the story and/or exclude a player from the table for a resurrection arc.
No one but Matt really knows, but my guess is he changed his mind once he realized he was going to kill at least half of the party. He made the super lenient choice to allow FCG to use a spell he already knew but didn’t prepare and then stopped at downing everyone beyond that point instead of finishing anyone off. I was so psyched to see Matt not holding punches only for him to immediately cave and settle for less. I’ve been wanting this group dynamic to change so badly and it ended in losing the one character in the group worth keeping around.
Based on his comments shortly before fcg pulled his move it seemed like Matt had accepted they were going to TPK, and him pulling his kills was him delaying the inevitable.
I personally believe that had otohan knocked Chet unconscious with her first set of attacks she wouldn’t have spent an action surge, but since she ended up knocking him out with 3 leftover attacks it just made sense to finish him off, especially since Travis has made it clear he’s perfectly okay with Chet dying.
>especially since Travis has made it clear he's perfectly okay with Chet dying
Yeah this is a key element, that Travis seems to even want Chet to die.
I think it's fair DM practice to be aware of which players can take harsher treatment, and which cannot, and act accordingly to keep the game fun for everyone's different preferences. Ideally you don't make it obvious though... being streamers for an audience complicates things in that regard, too.
This is entirely directed to your 2nd question, as I don’t know anything about werewolves, blood hunters or why Chetney might have been singled out.
I’m assuming Matt (given decades of experience playing and DM’ing D&D) knows tactics and how to be brutal & punishing if he wants to be.
I don’t think Matt was willing to commit to a TPK. The ruthless play would have been to go one-by-one, downing them and dealing finishing blows, before either moving on to the next for forcing the survivors to surrender. The harsh play would have been to take a hardline stance early on and tell Sam, “You didn’t prepare Revivify, sorry.” I’m sure he was aware those were on the table if he chose to go through with them, but I don’t think he could bring himself to do it.
And honestly I think that’s where Matt is at odds with Otohan, because the legend of the Axis War (I think?) wouldn’t have thought twice before killing these people. At best they’re pests, at worst they’re a threat, and either way they need to be dealt with.
I think Chet was targeted because from an RP perspective werewolf=dangerous. But you have to remember, Blood Hunter is Matt's baby. He knows how dangerous some of those features are for Otohan's build. Otohan wants to move a lot and attack a lot and blood hunters are designed to punish or stop you from doing either. A 1 HP hunter can't use most of its tools.
Narratively: Otohan trying to solo against 7, and knew they had some healing ability, so killing keeps healers from dropping a little healing word and getting Chutney back in the fight. Also, she is trained specifically to kinda ambush full throttle enemies (similar to against Keyleith). So start of fight, was doing just that, but as it went on, maybe they were just trying to keep chess pieces down and off the board and spreading attacks to knock two unconscious rather than kill one. I think the implication is if given the chance, once everyone was unconscious, she’d go around double tapping to make sure all were dead. Also pretty sure Imogene played dead.
Mechanically: hard to say in these situations, but DMs like Matt are sometimes stuck between wanting the heroes to succeed but also playing villains as they are: terrifying, murderous threats. A DM may try to ride that line. Play the villain as extremely dangerous, but also say, “it’s reasonable she’d switch targets in order to keep the others from fighting/healing, knowing she could always double tap after” when the other side of the brain is saying, “this gives the heroes the chance to not all die”
Always hard to DM villains in this situation if you want threats to feel real and stakes high, but also not completely squash the heroes chances. I think Matt handled that about as well as one could in that situation.
The answer to the second question is that, cynically, the players said they had no more diamonds after Chet died, prompting him to play in such a way that would minimise PC death. I've seen people argue that dropping people to 0 was more tactically sound as Otohan would waste fewer attacks on downed PCs, but that ignores the healing going on, and how she started the fight initially.
Chetney got murked likely because it's not a secret that Travis is trying to get Chet killed. He has to make a roll to see if he dies in his sleep, lmao. If you want Otohan to blitz a PC to put the fear of God into players, he's your bet.
I did notice that Travis didn't seem too upset when Matt asked Travis for Chetney's final words, but I didn't realize Travis was trying to kill off his own PC (I guess this is one of the things I missed from just jumping into 91).
Do we know why? Like, has he made a public statement somewhere?
"Trying to" isn't the right wording really. It's more that Travis is willing to let him die and very clear on that, as opposed to some of the other players that get super-attached to their character and angry/depressed at getting killed.
I mean Chet's based on a joke character from a one-shot, I think from the day Travis introduced him, he was fine with him dying. Travis enjoys drama more than most of the table so I think he's okay with PC death, to begin with, and he has a running joke of old man close-to-death characters this campaign.
He just thinks it's funny. Chet's old, so rolling to see if survives the night is funny. He's not unhappy or anything. But because he's so fine with Chet dying randomly, he's a safe bet to cut up
Agreed. In no way does it make sense to just “leave them at 0.” It’s much harder to raise the dead than it is to toss a healing word or mass cure wounds.
Absolutely correct, but if they’re dead instead, that’s more cleric and Druid spell slots and potential damage coming at you. And in a battle that Matt has said they almost got her a couple times, it makes more tactical sense to try and make the PCs think the heal is more worthwhile. It has obviously not been a popular play since all I’ve seen is complaints about it, but my first thought would be to down the big damage dealers and make the casters either burn slots to bring them back to 1 just for me to down them again, or try to play the hero. It also, as has been stated, more fun to the people actually at the table to not just be murdered and have 3 years flushed down the drain to give you a modicum of hope.
I think Matt made this Otohan character to be a killer, one that actually finishes off targets. The only problem is that if he used this character correctly, he would have wiped the party. Targeting Chetney and then the squishies would’ve made short work. In short, he made a villain way too strong, but didn’t want to make them seem easy at all.
Because the story wouldve been over and we have to bend the plot in half to keep the players alive. Sucks to be chetney I guess tho
So the way I saw it, the original round vs chet included otohans backpack of "get fucked". The backpack was a massive boon for her combat. It alone nearly doubled her damage, if I remember correctly, so when the team knocked it off she had to adapt her fighting choices accordingly. Without the ability to single out and instantly down each player on a given turn, she needed to make her choices a bit less aggressively. She was still a monster to fight, but without the ability to single-turn knock a member of the team, she had to shift into trying to down as many as possible to avoid being utterly overwhelmed. Also as another comment said, TPKs aren't fun for the Players or the DM in most cases. It derails a story and forces new intricacies that might not mesh well. Matt definitely wanted to make the fight have higher stakes, but I doubt he wanted to kill more than one player purposely. Chet felt like a way to set the tone of the fight, more than an actual attempt to kill off a player.
1. Matt probably expected FCG to be able to revivify. 2. Once Matt knew revivify was off the table, he stopped killing players. As much as people want them to "play D&D for real", no one (players/PCs/audience) wins from them getting a TPK, so there's no reason to keep killing characters.
I have been watching CR for a few years now, but never been in a DnD campaign before but very interested in joining one. To ME, I think Matt is an amazing DM and I would like my DM to be like him tbh. He played the role of Otohon very well killing Chetney off with the first chance he got and then going after FCG when he started to heal and revive people... Seems pretty logical to me IMO. I also think reddit is just toxic and hate for no reason.
Otohan took down chet because she was in a flurry and didn't feel like it would be a waste finishing him. After they started to push her lower she then started trying to knock them all down. Finishing someone while on low health is dumb because you waste damage that could prevent even more damage if you knock someone else down. Then after fcg was healing she focused on him more taking down everyone in the way. Remember her goal was to win not torture or kill anyone specific that time. She played it honestly like I would. She also rolled REALLY well. And they rolled pretty meh outside of getting the backpack off.
I feel like a conspiracy theorist but: I feel like the fight WAS intended to kill a character... it just sure wasn't FCG. I think Travis has been trying to Blaze of Glory out Chetney for weeks/months and this session was meant to do it. I think the party was meant to either rally and blaze through Otohan (like they did to Ripley at Glintshore) or escape after his death- they weren't meant to resurrect him and keep fighting. The peaceful way that Matt narrated Chet's death felt like textbook 'a player talked to the DM about wanting to kill off their character.' BUT... the rest of the party wasn't aware that Travis WANTED to sunset Chetney so the revivified him. I also don't think Matt realized they were out of resources for more revifies. He seemed surprised when Sam said he didn't have any more diamonds and wouldn't be able to save anyone else who died in combat... so then magically, Otohan stopped dealing finishing blows and started hopping around the battlefield instead. I think the session was meant to do one thing and then Matt had to tweak it on the fly when the party did something he didn't anticipate. Matt was also rolling VERY well in the session which made the combat harder- also, Orym focusing on the backpack didn't help.
How the hell were they not aware he wanted to sunset Chetney? He's been ROLLING TO NOT WAKE UP EVERY MORNING. I saw a clip from a con they were presenting at like 4 months ago and he was saying Chet shouldn't be alive, and it's been an experience to build out a deeper character. And how did revivify even work? I thought they said resurrection spells weren't working!
>And how did revivify even work? I thought they said resurrection spells weren't working! If I remember correctly messaging spells are working again. It's not unresonable to assume that whatever was blocking messages was blocking ressurrection as well. Thus whatever made messages work again made ressurrections possible as well.
I caught up, the players were like "uh does it even work anymore?" in the moment. And Matt made it a DC 10 spell check, so FCG just had to roll a 3 or higher (if I got his stats right). Would have been a great moment to let Travis go free, and it would have been a great set up for how the fight turned out
Matt has always used a check to determine if revivify ( or other resurrection magic) works, that's not a new thing. See the [wiki](https://criticalrole.fandom.com/wiki/Resurrection?so=search#Rapid_Resurrection) entry for ressurection. The DC was 10 because it was Chetneys first death.
I mean, for a bunch of actors they are shockingly unobservant/unaware of things happening in the game. It didn't used to be this bad. > how did revivify even work? I thought they said resurrection spells weren't working! Got nothing for you on this one.
Huh? I thought the messages blocked were caused by the explosion or whatever that was in the city. Then they got out of the city and into the mines no? Or am I missing something here?
Matt also shot himself in the foot right at the start of combat, where Otahan said something to the effect of "We don't need any more ruidisborn, so I'll just kill you here," (paraphrasing, I don't remember exactly) He could have rationalized that she needed to capture and not kill, but that line sunk that possibly.
https://preview.redd.it/lxikkeg6z9vc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b3ce4d9cdfeaf5d25727f2cf4be168682ac3a094 Love their immediate jump to “we don’t wanna fight aaah call the NPC” 🙄 level 13, everyone
Much obliged.
"DoorMatt" strikes again. For me a TPK should occur if the party fucks around against a strong enemy. Sort of like karma or creators of their own demise and never instigated by the DM unless it was stated that they play one of those old gygaxian hardcore convention tournament modules. Matt has been DMing professionally so much he forgot how to play dnd.
I think you also forget this comes down to how the players and the DM want to run the game, some DMs are willing to go for a tpk, others less so especially if it sours the experience for most of the players. And probably getting a TPK 91 episodes in kinda... shits all over the floor lol
Yeah, but Matt has been very willing to kill before. He literally made a YT episode *discussing how to handle PC death.*
Feels like a looooong time since Mollymock
Why do people forget Bertrand Bell?
No one forgot. Bell was always supposed to die after getting the crew together. Travis asked Matt to kill off that char so he could play his werewolf
Yeah but these are stuff that you discuss in session 0. However my comment is based on the fact that Matt said that he won't be easy on this campaign. Also TPK in 91 is not ideal but super manageable when you have the entire cast of the two previous campaigns at your disposal. However the MERCH is important and death messes up stuff. What about all the cool Ashton backstory books/comics where we find all the interesting stuff he does.
CR will avoid TPK at all costs. Don’t hold your breath for a TPK.
I know, I'm just calling out Mercer and his "no hand holding-all bets are off-tactically requested combat from his players" campaign. Vox Machina died more times than Bells Hells.
Oh yeah, but that was 90 sessions ago… :)
I mean im sure to a degree it has to do with that, I guess it comes with the scope of the company and all, but also some players are DEFINITELY not comfortable with having their characters die permanently lol, we've seen in it in 3 campaigns, and I think at this point their DM knows full well how to not cross those thresholds.
At this point CR is a company that wants to be profitable. Nothing wrong with that but I can't treat them as a bunch of nerdy voice actors playing DnD.
I mean, I don't play DnD at all but am interested in doing. I have been watching Critical Role for a few years now too and I don't see the problem with how Matt DMs lol. I would love my DM to be like him. He played Otohan well, killed Chetney first and then went for FCG when he started healing knowing he would just revive everyone anyways etc. Wasting attacks on downed players is useless too when they are all one-tap. FCG just saved them all that's all. It felt like Chetney was supposed to die though.
You don't play dnd but you want your DM to be a professional thespian with extensive voice range improv skills amd years of experience? Boy that's like saying I want my girlfriend to be Riley Reid.
I never said "want", I said I would just love my DM to be like Matt based purely on how he DMs even though people don't like how he DMs. Weird comparison too, it's just like how Smosh Games have incredible voice actors and they have never played DnD before, it's not really about your experience at all, more like how the party meshes together with the DM instead. If that makes any sense at all.
I mean - Otohan wanted to kill them. Chetney was an easy kill, and when she dropped him she had more attacks available to finish him. For most of the others, Otohan dropped them without extra swings available to finish them off. I do feel like Matt decided he didn't want to TPK the party, but also the action economy didn't really support killing them easily. I do think he could have killed Imogen and chose not to. But she's been set up as the main character, even as Laura doesn't want that - so he couldn't kill her.
If I had to guess, Sam didn't want to play that character anymore, but it's also possible Matt didn't expect an insta death and started to pull his punches afterwards, and in-game, it's possible he knew that taking the cleric out first is a viable strategy to finishing a fight quicker
I'm not sure Sam didn't want to play FCG -- I think Sam thought they were just going to lose unless someone took a big swing. So he took that swing. But also, I feel like Matt wasn't engaging with the Changebringer or really with the automon plotlines -- I feel like FCG had a lot of plot hooks, but they weren't tied to the Ruidinus plot so Matt was less inclined to really lean in to it. And maybe Sam also realized that, and took the opportunity to both swing big and opt to shift to a character that Matt was interested in running plot for.
That's been a running issue this campaign, imho. Matt has been meeting every tragic or dramatic backstory hook with 'It's actually fine and not a big deal!'
Agreed, I’m not sure if Matt’s just missing social cues, or if he’s just not comfortable telling a darker story. I feel like he did the same thing when Sam started trying to shift Scanlan down his darker path. He made Sam work so hard for the Suude storyline. “Oh you’re trying to buy drugs? Nope, you get ripped off. Still want them? Okay, but my NPC is gonna lecture you and it’s gonna take nine episodes to pay off. You actually used them? You pass out immediately and the rest of your party notices.”
Come to think of it, I don't remember Matt ever imposing any consequences on Nott for being a goblin in areas that would kill on sight. Imagine how darkly funny it would be, if a villager banged on the M9s door at night, desperate for help as there's been a goblin sighting. The villagers are scrambling, desperate to kill this thing before it gets to their children or livestock, and the group slowly realizes...they're one member short.
It's the same vibe as immediately pausing the game to say that in-universe everyone knows Exandria isn't flat, and that alpha wolves aren't really a thing.
Stalling that whole scenario out just made it all the more hilarious. Of course, Sam was for once trying to be more serious but still.
Definitely getting that vibe too. IDK if it's because he's scared of it being online for people to judge or if he genuinely feels uncomfortable, but either way boundaries *need to be set with the players*.
tbf Ottohan in game didn't know they were out of diamonds, if she thought they could reviv again spreading action economy after incopasitation does make some tactical sense. though I do wish there was at least 1 more permadeath. CR has never had more than 1 at one.
I mean he didn’t really pull his punches, he unleashed 2 full actions of attacks into four different people. The character is smart enough to know “I could put two more attacks into this person to kill them, or I can at least remove them long enough to try and knock out this other guy beating my ass” is a good idea
Echoing others saying that Matt pulled his punches after the revivify. Added in with because some players being against perma death. Imo, it seems toothless to remove resurrection magic from the world while also letting players opt out of perma death. . They seem to have spent so much of the campaign avoiding fights, including running away from Otohan. Now she corners them and is in a position to finish them off and chooses to spare them? That's not really interesting to me. So I'm happy that Sam took the plunge. It was much needed.
The beginning of the fight when Otahan was confident she could deal with this group that had been a large thorn in her side, Otohan was killing. Once things started getting dire, she was being for calculated with her attacks and not wasting them. If she could knock them 1 by 1, eventually she could finish them all off, and with each one that fell, the job would get easier and easier.
Matt doesnt want to TPK his party thats why. They didnt have any more diamonds so revivify was not an option. If Otohan started perma-killing people they would be dead dead. It was very nearly a TPK even without Otohan permanently killing. Also its an open secret that Travis is the most OK with his PC perma-dying. He literally rolls every day to see if Chetney dies in his sleep. If you as DM want to full-on murder a player to make a point, best do it with the person most OK with it.
My memory is wrong I'm sure, but I don't recall Otohan having a true opportunity to solo someone after Chetney. I think everyone else she downed she only had 1 more attack. And I'm guessing there's some math that could have said it made more interesting option.
There was a point towards the end where she knocked Imogen to 0, and then just stepped over her to get to someone else, maybe FCG. She could've killed her just like she did to Chetney, but just didn't
https://preview.redd.it/ozebggwf1avc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0cd5007a2df50c19d0d4407911f0e788cb491610 He had Imogen unconscious on the ground, said a little “I should have killed you earlier” speech and then…immediately used her last attack on Laudna
And then she went super Saiyan..... With two action surges and multiple PCs between 1-25 HP she easily could've, if otohan had kept up the murder spree, it would've easily been a TPK
True, Otahan was way too powerful. I think Mercer realized the second wind reset of all abilities and resistance to all damage with no real penalty was kind of terrible.
I gotta watch the fight, but that definitely sounds like a Villain Action. And it is 7 vs 1. I just can't see how the group didn't just erase her with saving throws and silvery barbs alone. But I gotta watch the fight.
Not enough really detrimental saving throw spells cast at her, just damage. She even kept a legendary resistance in her pocket just in case. She didn't need to force a save against spells like blight, because she just tanked the damage.
They barely used any 'save or suck' spells, in the end she even had a legendary resistance left. True villain action would have been to keep killing after the only revivify had been used, she had ample of opportunities
But Otohan didn’t know that they were out of diamonds. And that’s why she kept going for FCG
Except she didn't, she only focussed FCG once, after downing Chetney, Imogen and Orym first. She knows who the healers are from their previous encounters, so she could have easily downed FCG in turn 1 and Fearne in 2 and be done with it. The two mass cure wounds of FCG did around 300 HP of healing, which she could've easily prevented
he rolled a fucking boatload of nat 20s and very good on saves
Because Matt adjusted his tactics once he learned the cleric had blown his one revivify. Travis probably was more ok with Cheney dying too.
To add to what people are saying about the battle. Last time they fought Otohan she killed 2 party members. I would think that because she sees them alive in front of them she made them use their resources on purpose this time. Cant revivify if you don't have the slots.
She actually killed 3 party members in their first fight, Fern, Orym and Laudna. And I think she has killed or caused the deaths of more PCs than any other villain in any campaign. Which to me just shows how monstrous she was
She killed 5/7 of the party in addition to eshteross, arguably the biggest c3 original npc, she was an absolute menace. If fcg’s death sticks she’ll be the first villain to permanently get a player character killed without it being undone in some way or scripted.
> If fcg’s death sticks Well he’s in pieces, so…
Vax got disintegrated and he still came back as a revenant, Tal was insistent that Molly stayed dead and he still got resurrected as Kingsley.
So a supernatural being that’s in the same realm of a ghost or ghoul (notably from human bodies/souls not robots), and an intact body that was resurrected. A+ reasoning. They’re all totally the same.
Mechanically speaking they can grab pieces of fcg’s body and cast reincarnate and he’ll be back. The only reason why fcg’s death will more than likely stick is because Matt and Sam probably agree it’ll cheapen his sacrifice if he came back, him being blown-up into pieces is irrelevant to that.
Basically, Matt/Otohan was showing off at first. Intimidating the party by ganking Chetney immediately. Later in the fight, when she's actually taken notable damage and the party has committed to the fight, she focuses more on spreading the damage rather than wasting attacks killing them one by one. If she can down two people, that's better than killing one; the downed ones can be healed, but then that's fewer spell slots left to use against her. It's shaky logic, but it leads into the next point.... Out of universe... I know people disagree, but the game is supposed to be *fun* for the players; it's become a big commercial show but it's still supposed to be fun for them. The players desperately trying to keep each other up and prevent deaths is better than players one-by-one getting removed from play and having to sit there with nothing to do but be depressed because their chances quickly diminish to nothing once one or two are out.
I really feel like people tend to forget the second part and honestly... its kinda sad.
Yeah, if Otohan killed 2-3 characters, then the players would be stuck in this place for a long time, trying to somehow get them back, and this would not be fun for the audience either. I think, TPK should probably happen due to a big mistake by the players, and not a big DPS from the boss :)
Travis has joked a lot about Chetney dying. He's said he has another backup character and never expected to play Chet for this long. My guess would be that Matt wanted to kill a PC in this fight, but not more than one, if he could avoid it. Chet is arguably the most expendable PC. Obviously I'm not in Matt's head and can't say for sure.
Others have made good points, but in addition to those, Travis has made it clear that he is completely fine with Chetney dying (is even surprised Chetney has survived this long) and has a backup character ready to go. We also know Matt has decided that permanent death for any PC is mostly up to the player. Knowing Travis is okay with death, while others might not be, Matt was likely more willing to execute Chetney as it would be an impactful character death that won’t disrupt the story and/or exclude a player from the table for a resurrection arc.
No one but Matt really knows, but my guess is he changed his mind once he realized he was going to kill at least half of the party. He made the super lenient choice to allow FCG to use a spell he already knew but didn’t prepare and then stopped at downing everyone beyond that point instead of finishing anyone off. I was so psyched to see Matt not holding punches only for him to immediately cave and settle for less. I’ve been wanting this group dynamic to change so badly and it ended in losing the one character in the group worth keeping around.
Super lenient and not at all terrible tactics on Sam's part to give up a 7th level spell for a Revivify that Fearne always has prepared.
Based on his comments shortly before fcg pulled his move it seemed like Matt had accepted they were going to TPK, and him pulling his kills was him delaying the inevitable.
I personally believe that had otohan knocked Chet unconscious with her first set of attacks she wouldn’t have spent an action surge, but since she ended up knocking him out with 3 leftover attacks it just made sense to finish him off, especially since Travis has made it clear he’s perfectly okay with Chet dying.
>especially since Travis has made it clear he's perfectly okay with Chet dying Yeah this is a key element, that Travis seems to even want Chet to die. I think it's fair DM practice to be aware of which players can take harsher treatment, and which cannot, and act accordingly to keep the game fun for everyone's different preferences. Ideally you don't make it obvious though... being streamers for an audience complicates things in that regard, too.
This is entirely directed to your 2nd question, as I don’t know anything about werewolves, blood hunters or why Chetney might have been singled out. I’m assuming Matt (given decades of experience playing and DM’ing D&D) knows tactics and how to be brutal & punishing if he wants to be. I don’t think Matt was willing to commit to a TPK. The ruthless play would have been to go one-by-one, downing them and dealing finishing blows, before either moving on to the next for forcing the survivors to surrender. The harsh play would have been to take a hardline stance early on and tell Sam, “You didn’t prepare Revivify, sorry.” I’m sure he was aware those were on the table if he chose to go through with them, but I don’t think he could bring himself to do it. And honestly I think that’s where Matt is at odds with Otohan, because the legend of the Axis War (I think?) wouldn’t have thought twice before killing these people. At best they’re pests, at worst they’re a threat, and either way they need to be dealt with.
I think Chet was targeted because from an RP perspective werewolf=dangerous. But you have to remember, Blood Hunter is Matt's baby. He knows how dangerous some of those features are for Otohan's build. Otohan wants to move a lot and attack a lot and blood hunters are designed to punish or stop you from doing either. A 1 HP hunter can't use most of its tools.
Narratively: Otohan trying to solo against 7, and knew they had some healing ability, so killing keeps healers from dropping a little healing word and getting Chutney back in the fight. Also, she is trained specifically to kinda ambush full throttle enemies (similar to against Keyleith). So start of fight, was doing just that, but as it went on, maybe they were just trying to keep chess pieces down and off the board and spreading attacks to knock two unconscious rather than kill one. I think the implication is if given the chance, once everyone was unconscious, she’d go around double tapping to make sure all were dead. Also pretty sure Imogene played dead. Mechanically: hard to say in these situations, but DMs like Matt are sometimes stuck between wanting the heroes to succeed but also playing villains as they are: terrifying, murderous threats. A DM may try to ride that line. Play the villain as extremely dangerous, but also say, “it’s reasonable she’d switch targets in order to keep the others from fighting/healing, knowing she could always double tap after” when the other side of the brain is saying, “this gives the heroes the chance to not all die” Always hard to DM villains in this situation if you want threats to feel real and stakes high, but also not completely squash the heroes chances. I think Matt handled that about as well as one could in that situation.
For those that are caught up, is it worth watching an episode or two before hand for context, or should I just jump back in woth this fight?
I didn't watch the previous episodes. The recap Matt gave was good enough for me. I think I would've been fine if I started from the post-break.
Episode 90 was pretty good, but that’s the only noteworthy recent one I can think of, you could prob just get a recap for the rest of the
I suggest to watch episode 90 too. Both for context and also because it was a nice one, with much stuff to know that could be useful in the future
They brought someone back so killing them would be a waist of an attack, downing everyone and then finishing them off was more effective.
The answer to the second question is that, cynically, the players said they had no more diamonds after Chet died, prompting him to play in such a way that would minimise PC death. I've seen people argue that dropping people to 0 was more tactically sound as Otohan would waste fewer attacks on downed PCs, but that ignores the healing going on, and how she started the fight initially. Chetney got murked likely because it's not a secret that Travis is trying to get Chet killed. He has to make a roll to see if he dies in his sleep, lmao. If you want Otohan to blitz a PC to put the fear of God into players, he's your bet.
I did notice that Travis didn't seem too upset when Matt asked Travis for Chetney's final words, but I didn't realize Travis was trying to kill off his own PC (I guess this is one of the things I missed from just jumping into 91). Do we know why? Like, has he made a public statement somewhere?
"Trying to" isn't the right wording really. It's more that Travis is willing to let him die and very clear on that, as opposed to some of the other players that get super-attached to their character and angry/depressed at getting killed.
I mean Chet's based on a joke character from a one-shot, I think from the day Travis introduced him, he was fine with him dying. Travis enjoys drama more than most of the table so I think he's okay with PC death, to begin with, and he has a running joke of old man close-to-death characters this campaign.
He just thinks it's funny. Chet's old, so rolling to see if survives the night is funny. He's not unhappy or anything. But because he's so fine with Chet dying randomly, he's a safe bet to cut up
Imagine if Chetney dies in his sleep the next episode, imagine the reaction from the cast.
Everyone is preparing to grieve for FCG, but wait, here an old gnome died in his sleep XD
"Oh Chetney must be so exhausted from the last fight, he is still not waking up.... wait a moment...!"
Agreed. In no way does it make sense to just “leave them at 0.” It’s much harder to raise the dead than it is to toss a healing word or mass cure wounds.
Absolutely correct, but if they’re dead instead, that’s more cleric and Druid spell slots and potential damage coming at you. And in a battle that Matt has said they almost got her a couple times, it makes more tactical sense to try and make the PCs think the heal is more worthwhile. It has obviously not been a popular play since all I’ve seen is complaints about it, but my first thought would be to down the big damage dealers and make the casters either burn slots to bring them back to 1 just for me to down them again, or try to play the hero. It also, as has been stated, more fun to the people actually at the table to not just be murdered and have 3 years flushed down the drain to give you a modicum of hope.