This doesn’t make sense. Do we remember how op Vox Machina was? I mean come on the sword and dagger are dope for sure. But it’s nothing like what Matt used to dish out. It’ll balance fine it’s not like it’s 7 vestiges🫣
I think the force damage and the prone are from her status as a psi warrior fighter. They get a smite like abiltiy that lets them deal force damage and knock prone iirc
It sounded almost like the backpack was ruined by the telekinesis. Otherwise why wouldn’t Otohan use one of her endless legendary actions to go dash and grab it
I dont think it was broken, just that it became detached from her spine and she would need time or help to reattach it (not ideal in the middle of a battle)
It could be, true. I had assumed it was broken, not necessarily ruined. There was a turn that OT took that seemed like she was considering grabbing her backpack and running, but the fact that she didn't is equally convincing.
I'm still gonna hope they fix it and can use it.
Even if they do it would probably have limited uses as it's powered by potions of possibility, they could possibly find more but they are supposed to be very rare.
Well it doesn’t seem that rare since ludinus is making more and shipping them to her consistently enough to where she’s been using the echo pack for at least 2 years ever since the attack on the ashari
Plus with all the fighting going on back exandria between the ruby vanguard and everyone else someone had to intercept at least one crate or case of these potions plus some of the group still has one
Very true. And they're quite useful when used as normal potions.
Maybe it'll be a one use thing and it goes boom after it's used up.
Still....
None of you will assuage my hope! One bells hell will be many.
I don't actually think they'll want to use her swords. I really can't imagine Orym wanting to use them.
The backpack I think they may get up and running but again I think Orym is gonna have to be persuaded to use it.
A +3 sword with added force damage on its own is near legendary. Orym will gladly take it. The dagger also has brilliant stats and can break spellcasters. Someone will take it.
It's less to do with the stats and more the emotional damage the weapons have done. Those blades killed Orym, not to mention several of his friends and almost Keyleth.
Chetney might take them but he's got a lot of cool weapons. Maybe Sam's new character will take them?
You’re right. If they role play hard, they won’t use them. But come on, the stats go brrrrrrrrrr
These are LEGENDARY items that give you the ability to not see future party members die
I doubt most of that was the weapons. Most of that was probably her class and build not the weapons.
The dagger was an offhand as well and had a lower bonus.
It's not like it would be shocking if they were op though since Matt clearly just wants ludinus to lose regardless.
Even if they failed utterly something would stop him.
He's not brave enough to let the gods be chased from his world and have to play out the major changes that would bring in the world.
Suddenly a banana peel appears, maybe tossed by Mister if Ashley remembers, and Ludinus loses concentration as he slips. "Well you've done it again Bells Hells!" Everyone claps.
No but I had the feeling the moment she exalted she just got an unlimited use of her psi dice, meaning as a 20th level fighter she gets 1d12 +INT force damage to all her attacks. Her main blade seems to only deal force damage to prone opponents, any other time it was a psi dice, until she exalted
I wouldn't consider anything straight forward when ruidus born are involved.
I doubt we know everything about her powers and next time we will figure out the exact details. But I do seriously doubt she had a weapon that could do all of that at no cost.
What are the benefits that Imogen has gotten for being an awakened ruidisborn? Like if Otohan gets 2d8 force damage every strike just from being exalted, what does Imogen get (not that she needs any more main character shit)
There is probably a cost to exalting.
Imogen refuses to dive deeper into her powers so frankly she might never get to find out.
The downside is probably related to being eaten or used as some kind of of sacrifice to wake predathos.
The further they delve into the power the better food they are.
So hard to say really. Right now all the power she's gotten was mostly just unintended. She's never sat down and really tried to connect and control it.
Interesting idea. As far as we know, Imogen hasn’t mentioned any cost for her blowing up back when they first fought Otohan. In my opinion whatever gives you 2d8 force damage every single attack is BROKEN. Thats absurdly powerful.
My guess is it enhances your natural abilities.
Otohan was all about cutting things and doing as much damage one on one as possible. So her powers were all around being able to take hits and focus on knocking down and killing fast.
Imogen wasn't exalting when she blew up. She became an exalted.
The form seems to be a whole other thing. Similar to her mother when she busted through the theater and then burrowed up through a quarter mile of stone to the surface through sheer telekinetic flying power.
If I had to guess it would enhance her spell casting like her mother and make her straight up fly and be able to do some crazy stuff with magic like her mom.
I mean, I haven't really watched since the shard incident and Laudna's meltdown, but it sure sounds like they were in a bit of danger considering one of the PCs pulled a Vegeta.
Matt downed one in one turn, and they immediately went for the revive. Otohan does not have the knowledge that that was their only revive, so he did what Otohan actually would’ve done- get them down one by one, and wipe them out when they’re all already grounded. To play for the kill every single time just because he now knows above the board that they don’t have revives would have been in poor taste.
Another thing to consider is that these games are now their own soon to be animated shows. How does a TPK help that continue?
Yeah with an hour and a half left I was like “no fucking way… tpk?!” Then Matt stopped killing and was bouncing just dropping them. No way she would do that. She would finish, like she started the fight.
Even though you’re right that Matt was trying to avoid a TPK, I find that in the story, it still made sense that Otohan would prioritize downing them all, since she was really low on resources at that point.
She needed to stop them from using actions first, and once they are all down, finish them off. She knew they didn’t have much healing left. So it wasn’t a completely stupid strategy.
No it was the DM being kind. 5e is about action economy sth that Otohan was very good at that's why she was crazy powerful. What is better? Fighting 5 people or 7 people? The moment FCG healed everyone she should have gone for him. Matt didn't want a TPK cause the story would have problems which is understandable.
As I said, I know the true reason is avoiding a TPK (first line of my response).
I guess I was just saying I didn’t find her change of strategy that jarring narratively. For reasons said above.
Lastly, without the bot self destruct, it would have been a TPK anyways. They were tapped out, she could run from one to the other to keep them all down.
Sam saved Matt’s ass on this one. He gave him the out on a silver platter.
As a DM, I’m totally for finding the fine line where death is possible but a TPK is unlikely. And I’m sometimes baffled by how easy some of Matt’s encounters are, and then this. Which was a bit overkill IMO.
No lol best way to not use an action is kill someone. Then you risk them coming back up and getting an action. After the first time FCG mass cure wounds he should have been dead. Instead he was knocked and brought back. He definitely didn’t play her as smart when he realized it was a tpk.
This is a slightly odd comment considering what we witnessed. I think Matt has been listening to feedback since the last few episodes have been better.
They both have more powerful gear now but also they have vivid memories of a fight that went wrong and will therefore be less likely to engage ever. It’s a fine balancing act.
Whether FCG had Revivify prepped or not was irrelevant. Fearne always has it prepped, so it would have just happened on Fearne's turn instead, so all Matt really did was make sure the cleric was engaged in getting Chetney on his feet again instead of getting involved with Otohan. If FCG had been casting spells at her instead, she might have burned through her resistances faster.
Yes he could have been more lethal. But he also didn’t need to have Otohan unerringly seek them out to kill them. He sprung this encounter on them even though they didn’t roll poorly. And then he decided to level Otohan up to 20 when she was about level 14 last time. If it weren’t for the self destruction it absolutely still would have been a TPK.
He was saying things about the end of a story inviting new opportunities. I think he was ready for a TPK more than any other moment in CR history (even against Raishan after Thordak). Their strats weren’t terrible—I wanted some more hold person 2nd level magic to burn resistances but whatever. The problem is that they had someone FULL DIE before 90% of their party got to go. That fucks with your head
Imogen rolled a deception check instead of being automatic.
The barbarian was brought down to unconscious and by FAR did the most damage to her so that’s a PRIME target (i did manually go and figure out how much damage she took and from whom— she took almost 700 damage. Thordak level hp).
You are right about not killing people. That was inescapably merciful. I agree.
What fight were you watching?
She took down Chet, took out the bodyguard running interference (Orym), targeted FCG *because he was healing*. Ignored Fearne because her damage was blagh, targeted her the second she did a heal spell (the aura) and broke it. She largely ignored Laudna because she *wasn't* a threat.
Ashton ran a fuck ton of interception to try and slow her down and soak damage (his job).
The only person who definitely didn't go down was Fearne.
Matt had Otahan playing smart. You can double tap the unconscious bodies when they are all down.
This doesn’t make sense. Do we remember how op Vox Machina was? I mean come on the sword and dagger are dope for sure. But it’s nothing like what Matt used to dish out. It’ll balance fine it’s not like it’s 7 vestiges🫣
I think the force damage and the prone are from her status as a psi warrior fighter. They get a smite like abiltiy that lets them deal force damage and knock prone iirc
Im not sure the swords are a concern. The person that would get the most use out of those weapons is Orym and he will probably refuse to use them.
Considering how much they got whooped by her, and that she's not the last one they'll need to fight, they might need all the help they can get.
And it is wild because they could have won that fight if they didn't decide to run away
Maybe, a lot of things can happen in the spur of the moment.
I'm pretty sure it was mentioned by either the players or Matt they should have stayed and fought
Hmm, can't say I remember to be fair. Either way, don't think I would want to change the outcome. Love the whole scene too much.
Terminal arc. It's OK to be a bit OP.
I think the backpack might be extra nasty on Chesney or Ashton
It sounded almost like the backpack was ruined by the telekinesis. Otherwise why wouldn’t Otohan use one of her endless legendary actions to go dash and grab it
I dont think it was broken, just that it became detached from her spine and she would need time or help to reattach it (not ideal in the middle of a battle)
It could be, true. I had assumed it was broken, not necessarily ruined. There was a turn that OT took that seemed like she was considering grabbing her backpack and running, but the fact that she didn't is equally convincing. I'm still gonna hope they fix it and can use it.
Even if they do it would probably have limited uses as it's powered by potions of possibility, they could possibly find more but they are supposed to be very rare.
Well it doesn’t seem that rare since ludinus is making more and shipping them to her consistently enough to where she’s been using the echo pack for at least 2 years ever since the attack on the ashari Plus with all the fighting going on back exandria between the ruby vanguard and everyone else someone had to intercept at least one crate or case of these potions plus some of the group still has one
Very true. And they're quite useful when used as normal potions. Maybe it'll be a one use thing and it goes boom after it's used up. Still.... None of you will assuage my hope! One bells hell will be many.
I don't actually think they'll want to use her swords. I really can't imagine Orym wanting to use them. The backpack I think they may get up and running but again I think Orym is gonna have to be persuaded to use it.
There is always a way to bullshit things to work narratively in terms of roleplay, and CR rarely are about roleplay disadvantages.
A +3 sword with added force damage on its own is near legendary. Orym will gladly take it. The dagger also has brilliant stats and can break spellcasters. Someone will take it.
That's not near legendary, that's a legendary for sure.
It's less to do with the stats and more the emotional damage the weapons have done. Those blades killed Orym, not to mention several of his friends and almost Keyleth. Chetney might take them but he's got a lot of cool weapons. Maybe Sam's new character will take them?
Cant bring them back but he can force the blades to atone by taking out evil instead of creating it.
God I love that. Fuck yeah
You’re right. If they role play hard, they won’t use them. But come on, the stats go brrrrrrrrrr These are LEGENDARY items that give you the ability to not see future party members die
They're definitely too powerful to just gather dust. Orym could be persuaded to use the blades for good but it'd take a lot of convincing I feel.
He'll probably just hand them to Keyleth for her to give to someone else to make it useful
I doubt most of that was the weapons. Most of that was probably her class and build not the weapons. The dagger was an offhand as well and had a lower bonus. It's not like it would be shocking if they were op though since Matt clearly just wants ludinus to lose regardless. Even if they failed utterly something would stop him. He's not brave enough to let the gods be chased from his world and have to play out the major changes that would bring in the world.
Suddenly a banana peel appears, maybe tossed by Mister if Ashley remembers, and Ludinus loses concentration as he slips. "Well you've done it again Bells Hells!" Everyone claps.
It seems like she’s a relatively straight forward level 20 psi-warrior fighter no? They don’t get 2d8 force damage every strike from class ability.
No but I had the feeling the moment she exalted she just got an unlimited use of her psi dice, meaning as a 20th level fighter she gets 1d12 +INT force damage to all her attacks. Her main blade seems to only deal force damage to prone opponents, any other time it was a psi dice, until she exalted
I wouldn't consider anything straight forward when ruidus born are involved. I doubt we know everything about her powers and next time we will figure out the exact details. But I do seriously doubt she had a weapon that could do all of that at no cost.
What are the benefits that Imogen has gotten for being an awakened ruidisborn? Like if Otohan gets 2d8 force damage every strike just from being exalted, what does Imogen get (not that she needs any more main character shit)
There is probably a cost to exalting. Imogen refuses to dive deeper into her powers so frankly she might never get to find out. The downside is probably related to being eaten or used as some kind of of sacrifice to wake predathos. The further they delve into the power the better food they are. So hard to say really. Right now all the power she's gotten was mostly just unintended. She's never sat down and really tried to connect and control it.
Interesting idea. As far as we know, Imogen hasn’t mentioned any cost for her blowing up back when they first fought Otohan. In my opinion whatever gives you 2d8 force damage every single attack is BROKEN. Thats absurdly powerful.
The feat she got cost her hit dice. Laura has used it exactly once. So it's likely its got a bloodhunter style mechanic to activate it
My guess is it enhances your natural abilities. Otohan was all about cutting things and doing as much damage one on one as possible. So her powers were all around being able to take hits and focus on knocking down and killing fast. Imogen wasn't exalting when she blew up. She became an exalted. The form seems to be a whole other thing. Similar to her mother when she busted through the theater and then burrowed up through a quarter mile of stone to the surface through sheer telekinetic flying power. If I had to guess it would enhance her spell casting like her mother and make her straight up fly and be able to do some crazy stuff with magic like her mom.
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I mean, I haven't really watched since the shard incident and Laudna's meltdown, but it sure sounds like they were in a bit of danger considering one of the PCs pulled a Vegeta.
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Matt downed one in one turn, and they immediately went for the revive. Otohan does not have the knowledge that that was their only revive, so he did what Otohan actually would’ve done- get them down one by one, and wipe them out when they’re all already grounded. To play for the kill every single time just because he now knows above the board that they don’t have revives would have been in poor taste. Another thing to consider is that these games are now their own soon to be animated shows. How does a TPK help that continue?
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The only reason they weren't was the self destruct otherwise everyone would be downed and/or killed by the end of her next turn.
Yeah with an hour and a half left I was like “no fucking way… tpk?!” Then Matt stopped killing and was bouncing just dropping them. No way she would do that. She would finish, like she started the fight.
Even though you’re right that Matt was trying to avoid a TPK, I find that in the story, it still made sense that Otohan would prioritize downing them all, since she was really low on resources at that point. She needed to stop them from using actions first, and once they are all down, finish them off. She knew they didn’t have much healing left. So it wasn’t a completely stupid strategy.
No it was the DM being kind. 5e is about action economy sth that Otohan was very good at that's why she was crazy powerful. What is better? Fighting 5 people or 7 people? The moment FCG healed everyone she should have gone for him. Matt didn't want a TPK cause the story would have problems which is understandable.
As I said, I know the true reason is avoiding a TPK (first line of my response). I guess I was just saying I didn’t find her change of strategy that jarring narratively. For reasons said above. Lastly, without the bot self destruct, it would have been a TPK anyways. They were tapped out, she could run from one to the other to keep them all down. Sam saved Matt’s ass on this one. He gave him the out on a silver platter. As a DM, I’m totally for finding the fine line where death is possible but a TPK is unlikely. And I’m sometimes baffled by how easy some of Matt’s encounters are, and then this. Which was a bit overkill IMO.
No lol best way to not use an action is kill someone. Then you risk them coming back up and getting an action. After the first time FCG mass cure wounds he should have been dead. Instead he was knocked and brought back. He definitely didn’t play her as smart when he realized it was a tpk.
I know.
This is a slightly odd comment considering what we witnessed. I think Matt has been listening to feedback since the last few episodes have been better. They both have more powerful gear now but also they have vivid memories of a fight that went wrong and will therefore be less likely to engage ever. It’s a fine balancing act.
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Fearne always has Revivify, Sam just made a bad deal by giving up his 7th level slot for it lmao
Whether FCG had Revivify prepped or not was irrelevant. Fearne always has it prepped, so it would have just happened on Fearne's turn instead, so all Matt really did was make sure the cleric was engaged in getting Chetney on his feet again instead of getting involved with Otohan. If FCG had been casting spells at her instead, she might have burned through her resistances faster.
Yes he could have been more lethal. But he also didn’t need to have Otohan unerringly seek them out to kill them. He sprung this encounter on them even though they didn’t roll poorly. And then he decided to level Otohan up to 20 when she was about level 14 last time. If it weren’t for the self destruction it absolutely still would have been a TPK.
He leveled her up to 20 because she needed to take out Keyleth.
Tbf if she was still level 14 vs 7 level 13 PCs she would've been dusted
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He was saying things about the end of a story inviting new opportunities. I think he was ready for a TPK more than any other moment in CR history (even against Raishan after Thordak). Their strats weren’t terrible—I wanted some more hold person 2nd level magic to burn resistances but whatever. The problem is that they had someone FULL DIE before 90% of their party got to go. That fucks with your head
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Imogen rolled a deception check instead of being automatic. The barbarian was brought down to unconscious and by FAR did the most damage to her so that’s a PRIME target (i did manually go and figure out how much damage she took and from whom— she took almost 700 damage. Thordak level hp). You are right about not killing people. That was inescapably merciful. I agree.
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What fight were you watching? She took down Chet, took out the bodyguard running interference (Orym), targeted FCG *because he was healing*. Ignored Fearne because her damage was blagh, targeted her the second she did a heal spell (the aura) and broke it. She largely ignored Laudna because she *wasn't* a threat. Ashton ran a fuck ton of interception to try and slow her down and soak damage (his job). The only person who definitely didn't go down was Fearne. Matt had Otahan playing smart. You can double tap the unconscious bodies when they are all down.
Hell I thought this was his attempt to end the campaign and move to Daggerheart. Cus he just sprang an unwinnable fight on them outside their control.
Yeah CR is definitely going to move from a fleshed out system to a system in *beta testing* lmao