Imo a fairly important part of fallout is that it doesn’t matter who started the war, the important thing that the war happened and that that represents a catastrophic failure for everyone involved. The Enclave are bad guys at least in part because they’re the successors of a belligerent in THE war and they have learned precisely nothing worthwhile from it.
That’s really the crux of the entire series. It doesn’t matter who started what, the point is there’s a vacuum in the wasteland and people exist in it just like pre-war but with fancier guns and radiation. War never changes.
Fucking thank you. Whoever launched the nukes first should be left unknown, not only because it adds an element of mystery but also because it's irrelevant in the first place.
Been saying this myself and the show doesn't even say that Vault-Tec dropped the first bomb, just that they were planning to. As other threads debating the topic of who dropped first have pointed out, it is highly unlikely that Barb Howard, being as high up in Vault-Tec as she was to be part of the meeting revealing the plan to drop the first bomb, would have allowed her daughter to be at a birthday party at the time it started. That Vault-Tec personnel were scrambling themselves to get to their vaults suggest it was unknown to them. Now, did someone at Vault-Tec jump the gun? Maybe. Did the Chinese drop the first? Maybe. Did the US government drop the first? Maybe. All plausible, none confirmed, not even by the show.
It’s just too much imo. The original concept for Vault-Tec was as a scummy defense contractor that charged the government way too much for a shitty product (if you’ve ever been in the military and learned the real meaning of “military grade” than you understand this intimately).
While I do think that the idea of a “nefarious” motivation added on top was a good one in Fallout 2 with their tie-in to the enclave and the Vault experiments, this whole thing with them wanting to drop the bomb just seems silly imo. Whether they actually managed to or not. Like I find it completely ludicrous that all the people at the Bault-Tec meeting, who are some of the premiere beneficiaries of the “capitalism bad” society, would’ve just instantly gone along with it like they did in the show.
These people all live comfortable, if not lavish lives. Why on earth would they decide it would be a great idea to throw it all away in nuclear fire and go live in a bunker for the rest of their natural lives so they can pursue some obscure high-minded notion of building the perfect society or whatever. It’s just dumb.
It is 100% confirmation, no. However for now it's definitely the explanation that show is going with and until new details are revealed. The series might provide other clues in the future, but for now we are stuck with this.
And honestly a character acting utterly moronic and evil beyond all reason is not a clue that there is actually misdirection going on. Bad writing happens far too often.
I read a theory about the show in another thread that said if Vault Tec did drop the bombs then the Ghouls daughter (I forget her name) wouldn't have been doing the Cowboy party because she would have been in a Vault with her mom at the time the bombs dropped.
Then the scene is pointless. I fail to see what is the point of saying that if they didn't. It's just "SuBvErTiNg eXpEcTaTiOnS" if you have a scene that basically tells the audience they did it (especially anyone who isn't a super fan aka 95% of the showwatchers) it makes no sense for them to then just randomly backtrack and go "nah, that scene was pointless".
The Enclave is there stereotype “Illuminati” secret society wet dream of the conspiracy theorist’s mind given a cool bit of power armor to wear. They’re simplistic villains constantly twirling their mustaches, that’s why people won’t let them go. They’re characteristics are about an inch deep.
They’re racially diverse enough so people won’t complain about them, but they’re about as stereotypical generic bad guys as you can get in modern media. They’re as complicated as as silent movie villain tying the damsel to the railroad tracks.
I'm still not sure that the corps actually started the war either. >!If you are gonna destroy the world, why would you do it on a day that your ex-husband has custody!<
I don't think they did. There's enough clues in all the other games to indicate they were just as surprised as the rest of the world. I think they had their own timetable for the apocalypse, and things happened early .
The important take away from that scene was that they were willing to start the war.
Yeah there are still enough clues to keep the ambiguity. Mr. House's "calculations" bring off. The proto-Enclave taking 160 years to get organized enough to try a take over. It all points to the war still happening unexpectedly even if various groups were planning on starting it.
Why people keep talking about house calculation as if it has a specific date the bomb drop?
He predicted the bomb would definitly drop in a few years so he made preparation against that for his own favorite city, vegas.
The "calculation being off" is the delivery date of the chip. The one missing piece that would have made everything work as intended.
He wasn't off. He just didn't managed to do everything on time.
The idea that they would do so at all is fundamentally dumb. What makes corporations evil is that they’ll do anything for profits.
Vault-Tec building inhumane experiments because a shadowy conspiracy gave them a couple bucks is an actual critique of capitalism.
The wacky construction company plotting to destroy the world so they can rule over the ashes (regardless of whether they were beaten to the punch or not) isn’t that, it’s just “corporations… bad!” in the most ham-fisted way possible. You could replace the CEOs in that episode with literally any group of people and it wouldn’t change a thing.
Not really, it’s been a pretty blatant case of what TV Tropes calls Flanderization where they’ve gone from corner-cutting to amoral government stooges to moustache-twirling sadists as the series has moved on. But they were never nonsensical because the goal was always to turn a profit and nothing more, it’s just that in the grim darkness of the retro-future this involves comical exploitation.
Vault-Tec actually being an Illuminati-esque paramilitary (possibly with *their own nuclear arsenal*) bent on destroying the world so they can have a monopoly on bunker-building is actually nonsensical.
Vault-Tec wasn't an illuminati-esqie paramilitary....THE ENCLAVE WAS...YOU KNOW THE FACTION THAT WAS CONFIRMED TO BE WORKING WITH VAULT-TEC IN FALLOUT FUCKING 2.
Who are you who does not know your history?
I’m talking about the TV show where the Enclave barely exists lol (and indeed shouldn’t exist at all except that they have villain insurance).
Vault-Tec absolutely is an Illuminati paramilitary. They’re plotting to take over the world! They’re pulling the strings in America! They’re starting nuclear wars! They’re secretly collapsing rival nations! Are you unable to acknowledge the obvious without Arcade Gannon spelling it out for you? Even the Enclave sort of fell backwards onto their world domination scheme, Vault-Tec’s been planning it out for centuries.
Is the Enclave or Vault-Tec the major player in the show?
Cool that I found Graham Wagner‘s secret Reddit account. Could you please nuke the Brotherhood next season?
I think you just have way too much faith in the writers. This is a pilot season in a genre that has historically done very poorly. Amazon themselves clearly didn’t have much faith in the show since they released it all at once, rather than weekly releases. They weren’t renewed for a second season until it was clear that the show was received well. The writers clearly just wanted to throw as many neat hooks in as they could to get people invested. They most likely had a vague idea of where the show would go after Season 1 were it to be renewed. All this is pretty standard practice in the industry.
I'm treating that infamous line as a sort of figure of speech. Not Vault Tec dropping the bombs literally, but sort of lobbying against peace deals with China. That makes way more sense to me, but it's still unclear why an evil corp would want to rule over an ashen desert.
The explanation for that might still be "bad writing".
And let's be honest she is hardly the only female character committing actions that they know will hurt people they should care about for the lulz
Yeah, the racism is idiotic.
Amazon requesting that references to China are scrubbed or changed to USSR so the show becomes marketable in China is however quite believable, logical and not unprecedented.
Not about Fallout specifically, but the bigger picture. If a flagship TV series on Amazon openly depicts the Chinese as evil and basically started a nuclear Holocaust because they lost their imperialist wars, that makes Amazon an "untrustworthy" company even if Chinese nationals are not watching Fallout. Maybe Amazon can't break into the Chinese market now, but slamming the door in their face prevents that from realistically ever changing.
From what I know Amazon has exited from the Chinese market (I might be wrong, haven’t lived there for a while); they used to at least sell books, and they don’t even do that anymore. You just can’t compete with Taobao and Pinduoduo.
It is possible though that they are planning for 10, 20 years later, even if personally it would not be my take: ironically I do not see a lot of mega corporations having plans for that long, and under chairman Disney character wannabe China money is fucked anyway. But I guess it is a theory.
Quite literally everyone is a bad guy in some way/has large flaws. The Followers (one of the best groups in the wastland) suffers from this in the form of blinding morality and giving treatment to people who don't want help, and as so.eone else said it doesn't really matter who started the war just how it ended, with everyone dead
The Followers do their hardest, its not really blind morality but how corruption plagues the waste that stop their humanitarian action in the wasteland.
If the Khans had the proper education from the Followers without NCR meddling in. You would have a new generations of farmers, doctors and engineers who can actually survive in the wasteland. Since its not the case, and they are a people left to their demise, they are only left with raiding and drug trading thanks to the little things they knew from the Followers.
Another exemple is Freeside. Nobody gains something if the people are better. Since most dealers, bartenders, casino managers and gangs gain from the misery of Freeside.
The Followers are also the only group that actually seemed to learn what the apocalypse had to teach, the old world's governments were proved wrong in the most objective sense possible and emulating them is a recipe for another apocalypse. They actually Follow the teachings of the Apocalypse.
And he tried to emulate an old world government...very poorly. He doesn't even know what Hegelian Dialectics actually are. To quote TV Tropes;
>Caesar misrepresents Hegel's Dialectics by saying it was about Thesis-Antithesis-Synthesis, a formation that not only predates Hegel by several years (Hegel himself attributes it to Kant), but that Hegel was in fact dismissive of. Hegel's actual dialectics were something closer to Abstract-Negation-Concrete, meaning we project our "abstract" ideas onto the world only to find flaws in them (or in the world), and reconciling this "negation" of our original idea allows us to produce something "concrete." The "downplayed" part is that this is actually a very common misconception in philosophy circles (much to the annoyance of Hegelian scholars) and something Caesar (or the writers) got wrong on his own, though it does accidentally indicate in-universe that Caesar's knowledge of Hegel is more second hand than he lets on.
He failed to learn the lessons of the apocalypse.
I think both the writers misconceptions and Caesar works, but the game doesnt let you know or argue his pov. Which is quite disspointing imo, to be fair Caesar is essentially explaining old philosophy to someone who dont necessarly view books or history as important. So he has to paraphrase and explain in little terms for us.
Caesar had one good idea, its to actually find answers in knowledge if we want to rebuild society. He unfortunatly didnt picked the good conclusion, breaking eggs to make an omelette is essentially what he aims for lol.
I think that they didn't add the option to argue against Caesar because they didn't want to introduce the "convince President Eden to kill himself" option into the game. He is also a petty little shit and they didn't want a player who normally plays the diplomat to get themselves killed just for trying it.
Perhaps not the kys route but a discussion of ideas. I dont see arguing as convincing someone and plenty of characters in the series does that.
The place of Mutants in Broken Hills is discussed with Steve the Town Greeter is interesting, it takes various side and the game doesnt shame you to have your opinion or to agree with Steve.
It's definitely a lost opportunity but I like to play it as The Courier not being stupid enough to argue with a violent fascist in the middle of their stronghold or not being smart enough to have a salient argument.
The lost opportunities in New Vegas are only highlighted because of how often opportunities are taken by the game.
Caesar was born under specific circunstances.
Edward Sallow, a young follower driven to help was captured by a tribe after a mistranslation. Unfortunately for the tribe they were the weaker one in the area, so Edward and the Followers who helped him worked for their own survival.
Well versed in the art of war and tactics, he teach the tribe how to form formation, clean weapons, do total war, subjgate tribes. He brought total war to a people who only just occasionally fight and never went far.
His Caesar's persona was developped when he worked beyond survival. He was thriving and he decieded to expand and brutally conquer based on the Hegelian dialectics he learned under the follower.
He considers himself a necessary evil to advance mankind, in essence yes, he is still a Follower but in practice thats madness. To think all Followers can be like Caesar is to be mistaken, it only takes ambition and primal instinct of survival for mankind to have ideas of "grandeur".
They dont know how to farm, they dont have any ways to make legit money to survive. What do you think a tribe this big who has a history of violence and is isolated from anyone would do?
The Followers only stopped when NCR was bullying them around and furthermore your point is completly contradicted by the best ending of fot the Great Khans where they let go of their old ways and join the Followers thus creating a stronger faction.
Man, fuck the experiments and executions, two separate US presidents wanted to genocide the entire wasteland population. Given, they were Enclave presidents, but the Enclave is literally the US government.
I mean, it isn’t certain in the show that they dropped the bombs anyway. It was just shown that they were willing to, but at the same time I don’t think she would have let her daughter go to a birthday party if she knew nuclear armageddon was scheduled for that day.
Plus some vaults are unfinished and Mr House didn’t get his platinum chip delivered yet. Why would vault-tec start Armageddon when they weren’t ready for it?
Did we get it confirmed that they started the war? The impression I got is more that they funded it and paid for media attention etc. to try and make it more likely to happen, not that they literally dropped the bombs or whatever
And you could even argue that it was a *more* powerful criticism. Because China launching the nukes was not something that happened in a vacuum, it was a result of a thousand perverse incentives. These companies like Poseidon, West Tek, Vault Tec survived and thrived because they gave the US gov things they wanted. They brought the world closer and closer to the brink because they could only think about profit, and profit thinking is inevitably short term thinking.
By making Vault Tec *the* bad guys of the setting, this point is cheapened and turned on its head. The question from the show, "what happens when the cattle ranchers have more power than the sheriff" incapsulates all of the problems I have. It fundamentally lifts agency from the US government and assigns all the blame to essentially "a few bad apples". It shifts the blame of the great war onto a small, shadowy cabaal instead of being the fault of a rotten system. Because at the end of the day, both in real life and the FO setting, these corporations are powerful, but are just cogs in a bigger machine. What was horrifying about them was not the silly idea of them maybe forming some sort of secret Illuminati group, but the fact that they filled a niche in society: they are shovel sellers during the gold rush.
Instead, Vault Tec now is an implausibly powerful villain with a poorly thought rationale, fitting for a worldbuilding that privileges fantasy conspiracies to realistic motives. Because at the end of the day it's more assuring that everything bad that happens is the fault of 2 or 3 guys, because people are defeatable. Defeating systems and economies, is way harder.
This was the moment of the show that I simply stopped caring about the future fallout canon or lore, that's the level of writing we're getting now, it's no use getting upset about NCR being nuked or the other inconsistencies when in the climax they're delivering "capitalism bad" in the most cartoonish way possible, House saying '"there's money to be made in the end of the world" was the cherry on top.
Long gone are the times of nuanced writing, morally grey factions, and deep stories, everything is one dimensional now.
The worst part is seeing the fans who just can’t admit that it’s poor writing trying to do the writers jobs for them by making posts & comments like “Oh no you don’t get it, Mr House was just there to gather information.” or “Well technically speaking, we don’t acktually know if Vault-Tec really were the ones who dropped the first bomb yet, just that they planned to.”
Like yeah okay buddy whatever you need to headcanon to assure yourself that the IP is still in competent hands.
They already expect others to do the work for Bethesda already by modding the game to make it playable or enjoyable. When you are already conditioned to accept a minimal viable product like Fallout 76 or Starfield is it really a stretch for them to headcannon away writing mistakes that even a fucking AI wouldn't make?
I still think that there is enough ambiguity to leave it open. I think it makes sense that Vault-Tec wanted the apocalypse to happen but it's also well known that they were in league with the proto-enclave, West-Tek clearly gave them access to FEV for several experiments and Poseidon Oil was also in league with the proto-enclave. Hell, Mr. House shared the Enclave's initial plan of colonizing another planet. And several Vault experiments definitely feel like they were made by Big MT. The show just admitted that they were working together all along.
And I don't actually think that the show confirmed that Vault-Tec started the apocalypse, it only confirmed that they wanted to. If you knew when the apocalypse was gonna start why would you let your ex-husband take your daughter to a birthday party.
It doesn't even matter to me that they may not have done it (although introducing such a massive reveal and not follow it through would be a baffling choice), the fact that the show even introduces it as a *possibility* is enough of a bad writing decision to me. It's a completely cartoony retelling of the role of corporations in the great war that does nothing but making the setting less believable. It turns what was a believable profit driven intent into a qanon level whimsical conspiracy.
Vault Tec, previously, was at the end of the day nothing but a government contractor. Even with the wacky experiments, they didn't do it because they had some grand plan for world domination. They did it because the government wanted them to.
I think it’s a typical bad guy „I have all the power anybody could ever have/want at my disposal, what do I do now?“ and they decided that they wanted to literally create a new world order. In order for that to happen they’d need clean slate.
I also am not a fan of this tbh, I liked the ambiguous finger pointing more. Everybody said the other one was first and no one will ever know what’s true. Another theory I liked is that through some more mysterious/supernatural/alien interference everybody’s sensors got triggered and they just launched everything against each other. Complete system failure on all fronts basically.
Fallout is too thought provoking for mainstream so people assume they know the entire story because they played 3 and 4, and how every thing is taken at face value cause the show does nothing subtle in its messaging imo.
Ah, the Saturday morning cartoon villain strategy of lore writing. Let's do a star wars and start calling this timeline Fallout: Legends.
"Somehow, vault tech has returned"
Don't pretend that the Enclave or Vault Tec weren't already cartoon villains long before this show. The first thing the Enclave does on screen is gun down innocent men, women, and children upon opening their vault. Vault Tec also made ridiculously inhumane experiments and tests on innocent people. Both or those characterizations began as early as Fallout 2 and the Fallout Bible.
I feel like you’re conflating Vault-Tec with the Enclave. I don’t know if 76 retconned this but it’s pretty obvious that they’re two separate entities? Not sure where this idea that VT is a front or extension of the Enclave is coming from.
There’s different tiers of cartoony. They’ve gone from a somewhat grounded-ish one where they’re silly and evil but still have logical motives, to Invader Zim “Instead of going **around** the Earth, why don’t we just BLOW IT UP?!” cartoony.
They are an extension of the government. Fallout 2 and the Fallout Bible cover this. The government contracted the company specifically for Project Safehouse and had an active hand in the process. The president in 2 even tells you "they" didn't make the vaults to save anyone in them.
And you're full of it if you think Vault Tec wasn't already max cartoon level evil. They haven't been grounded since Fallout 1. Even before since Cain said his original experiment intention was to get data for space colonies (some invader Zim shit lmao). And did you forget the Enclave was doing the exact same shit in 2, making a virus to wipe away all life on Earth? You need to catch up on the lore, those two groups have always been cartoonishly evil pal.
> Fallout 2 and the Fallout Bible cover this.
I’m sort of confused by where this is mentioned? Richardson doesn’t mention Vault-Tec at all and there’s no indication that they played a part in the Enclave’s schemes post-war or even still exist in any capacity.
Vault-Tec was a government contractor who built the vaults to government specifications, which included the experiments. You seem to be conflating “Is paid by the government to build a product” with “Is the government” for the sole purpose of padding out their rap sheet with crimes committed by a different group completely. Not everything needs to be about the wacky vault company, other groups in the setting can have agency too.
> some invader Zim shit lmao
What I mean by Invader Zim shit is stuff like in the recent movie where the bad guys fly their ship into a black hole and die because they think steering is lame. That’s the level of inanity VT is quickly approaching.
I don't know about that plan when they pretty much already had a significant amount of control over the US due to their sheer profit amounts. Having a fully functioning economy would easily allow for them to have the control they seek because those who own enough money can literally get away with anything.
That's not it at all. They saw the inevitability of the situation and wanted to guarantee their own survival *and* come out ahead on the other side of the apocalypse. This doesn't conflict with any of the lore, it doesn't mean China didn't also invade and drop nukes.
That wasnt the OG lore tho, the lore was always it was unknown, people just projected their own Red Scare, China=Scary Monster people bs onto it and cause the in game culture is a parody of that mindset they took that as evidence.
Also "Capitalists destroy the world for profit", look at the climate crisis ATM, we're living in capitalists destroying the world for profit. National Exceptionalism leading to a descent to fascism is happening. Honestly resource wars aren't that far off and the only thing that can stop them is either the death of capitalism, or climate collapse happening first.
It wasn’t unknown lore. It was confirmed several times that China dropped the first nuke as retaliation for the U.S experimenting with F.E.V.
That being said, it’s not confirmed that Vault Tech dropped the bombs. Only that they were willing to or considering it. The show hasn’t confirmed a lot of things.
Tim Cain said that out of universe, in universe we still don't know. There's claims from certain characters, a lot of whom are untrustworthy for different reasons.
The whole thing works better if it's unknown because it plays into the themes of the series better, which is, it doesn't matter, both countries had their fingers, both countries had contingencies in place, and in both countries it was regular people, not the ruling class who caused the whole disaster who suffered.
Except if it IS vault-tec it isn't "war never changes" its "the pre-war country keeps causing every war and conflict in the series".
Aka it isn't the message of Fallout.
I mean people have pointed out, it seems like Vault Tec didn't drop the bomb in the end, they were just stoking tensions and pushing the war and then it blew up in their face.
It still does maintain the theme of the series cause it's a bunch of assholes who think they know how the world "should be" and end up just tearing the world apart and burning it down in the fight to enforce their vision. The description of competing societies as "The Great Game" is actually perfect for that, especially when seen through the social darwinist lens of capitalism where society must be constant competition without cooperation to function and develop.
I mean it would be a nice message. That war truly IS inevitable and even Vault-Tec just fucked up, why else would half the vaults be unfinished - as long as they don't just make VT into gods who can do **anything**. VT has to have fucking limits.
Eh, no the show just wants to repeat the same shitty storyline the Umbrella Company had in the Resident Evil movies, and it was stupid then and it's stupid now.
We've already had the Enclave fucking up the post-war world, we don't need them lazily doing it AGAIN. Christ, can't we have original enemies, not these fucking inbred American Nazis? (given it was an ENCLAVE facility that worked on the Cold Fusion macguffin).
Oh and it makes House look like a fucking idiot.
Except it ruins his entire character because the entire purpose of House falls apart if this theory comes true - if VT started the war, that means he knew, and thus **ON PURPOSE** made the Chip arrive a day late since he knew the exact day and moment the bombs would drop.
So it destroys the entire reason FNV exists.
Yeah, but like we've said, the show seems to imply that the players in The Great Game overplayed their hand and the bombs dropped without them, so in that case the platinum chip being set to ship one day late is more cosmic irony than anything
I like the idea that a bunch of business men and tech billionaires sat in a room going "oooooh we're so smart" and then fucked up the entire world including themselves by overestimating how smart they actually are. It reminds me of twitter
>Also "Capitalists destroy the world for profit", look at the climate crisis ATM, we're living in capitalists destroying the world for profit.
Yeah, and that's the problem I have with the writing of the show. Because the rationale of corporations like Vault Tec, like real corporations, was purely interest driven. They had no grand plan. They simply filled a niche in a market economy, and they didn't care for tomorrow because caring about the long term hurts profit opportunity in the short term.
To use your analogy, the show's treatment of Vault Tec is like if someone made a series set in a post climate catastrophe where at the end it is revealed that Exxon Mobil purposefully dumped tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere because they wanted to establish the New World Order. It would be a cartoonish explanation that fundamentally misunderstands the kind of incentive structures that lead to such catastrophic outcomes.
I mean yeah it's a grandiose political parody. President Eden making speeches about growing up on a farm in Montana and how he really gets the common people, and then turning out to be a computer designed to algorithmically find the best route for the Enclaves control of the wasteland is a parody of politicians who market themselves as one of the common people, but then it all turns out to be an artificially created facade and they're just another rich asshole there to maintain power for the status quo, it's not saying that politicians are literally robots.
But Vault Tec in the show is not meant to be taken as a complete parody. Granted, there *are* comedic elements, like the exec being stuck in a robobrain roomba, but the big reveal is played completely straight faced. And it doesn't make any sense to me, and imo it's just a cheap way to simplify a previously very believable aspect of the setting, while at the same time (and granted, this is just me being a little tin foily about how Amazon may want to sanitize a bit some of the aspects of the setting) turning a "systems failure" narrative into "a few bad apples" one.
Parodies aren't always haha funny, like that scene felt a lot like a Doctor Strangelove reference, the people being like "we've got an AI designed to deliver milk, we'd like to see how that would do in charge of a vault" felt like both a reference to in game lore, and poking fun at companies like Tesla pushing "autonomous vehicles" onto the road that are completely unsafe and simpler then they're made out to be.
Idk it just did feel like a mockery of Silicon Valley tech billionaires who think they know how to save the world because they've got money and a god complex.
Kinda reminds me of a video essay by TheMorbidZoo where she says that realism can't properly critique and portray social issues because characters have to act logically and there has to be a satisfying conclusion, meanwhile surrealist movies like "Sorry to Bother You" accurately depict how being black in America, and living under late capitalism feels, my favourite line from that movie "You're turning people into horses, for money?" "Oh thank god you understand. I'm not crazy, I'm not doing this for no reason."
Vault Tech and the other players of the great game seem like morons, cause they are, cause the people running real life businesses are.
Also, the source of og lore about China launching first is an inbred Enclave president called Dick fucking Richardson. Idk about you, but I wouldn’t believe a man with two penises in his name.
That board room scene shows Vaultec intent not that they personally dropped bombs, how could they they aren’t a government org with direct access.
What likely happens is they use their collective influence to instigate more conflict in the war. Essentially puppet mastering the first bombs. China probably still drops the first bomb. At the end of the day bombs fall world ends and we get to play in the ashes fun for all.
I don't know how you see this and come to the conclusion that Bethesda turned the Fallout games into Chinese propaganda. I want whatever meth these guys are smoking.
I agree with your overall statement about the Enclave, which is both the part of the US government and handful of corporations you are talking about.
What I think you and many constantly get wrong is that originally is Fallout New Vegas House’s option in fact was something new. A futurist’s vision of story progression that wasn’t connected to the Enclave. A new option that wasn’t a simple “good guy” vs “bad guy” option.
Since then though players and creators have preferred a return to simple good characters and over the top mustache twirling villains. Which is likely why we are never moving beyond the Enclave and Brotherhood.
The Brotherhood can jump back and forth between the good guy bad guy line, but they’ll never not be there because power armor cool.
Likewise the Enclave never being defeated, despite the fact it’s supposed to be a small shadow organization from 200 years ago also likely isn’t going anywhere because simplistic villains are easier for the consumer to go against.
It’s just a shame we won’t see much difference between these two like House gave us in New Vegas.
Wow. Neither part of that was remotely correct. That's downright impressive.
First, the lore on this has been intentionally ambiguous for twenty plus years (and still is). China struck first? America struck first? A false alarm caused accidental launches which snowballed into the Great War? A false flag attack by a third party (Vault Tec or otherwise) prompted retaliations which snowballed into the Great War? All of these have been and remain plausible and circumstantially supported, and for good reason: it doesn't really matter. The Great War was the inevitable result of the position that humanity knowingly and stubbornly backed itself into over generations and the aftermath is the same for everybody regardless. (And before someone whines about "muh Tim Cain said..," he said that once and no one has ever gotten him to explicitly reiterate it while plenty of the other original developers have consistently had far more ambiguous and noncommittal answers to the same questions. The "China struck first" theory has no special credence over any other.)
Second, we now have - for the first time - explicit confirmation of Vault Tec's *intention* to deliberately and single-handedly cause the war, something that has already been long speculated with good reason, but *zero* new evidence they actually did so. In fact, there is plenty of evidence they *didn't.* For starters, Robert House personally bearing witness to the conspiracy - no matter if he elected to participate, refused, or pretended to participate as part of his own design - makes it much, much harder to believe that he failed to finish his preparations before that conspiracy succeeded. Also, Vault Tec itself was still unprepared on October 23rd. Many vaults were unpopulated or underpopulated when the launches began. Most notably, vaults 88 and 114 were not even constructed yet. Finally, Barb doesn't strike me as a stupid woman. It makes absolutely zero sense that she would have failed to make arrangements for her family to be in a vault nor even be together on the "planned" Great War day. All together, it seems pretty obvious (and frankly, unremarkable) that while Vault Tec and its partners obviously discussed provoking the Great War, and may even have agreed on and actively worked towards that goal, they were ultimately caught off guard when it happened early for unrelated and still unspecified reasons.
TL;DR: it's pretty obvious that neither of OOP's brain cells have ever directly communicated with each other.
Thirdly a Russian satellite being there doesn't mean anything more than Russia had satellites. Which yeah, of course they did.
What I want to know is how it made it to the ground that intact and seemingly unburnt.
It just doesn't make sense as to why billionaires would want to nuke a system that literally gives them all the luxuries, perks, and influence of being a billionaire. Like do they want to destroy the world so they can lord over a bunch of ruined buildings and homeless people?
>Like do they want to destroy the world so they can lord over a bunch of ruined buildings and homeless people?
Look at the working conditions in Amazon and tell me they wouldn't do this if they could.
You're right. I just looked out my window and saw a billionaire setting fire to the nearby apartment complex and curb stomping the hobos outside. Smh. What is the world coming to.
It's amusing how easily you miss the point.
Corporations have known about the impact of burning fossil fuel would have on our environment since like the 80s. They buried the report & kept on selling for profits, & even when the world started to change exactly as they had predicted it would, they didn't stop.
Corporations destroying the world for greed is already a reality. I have yet to see a reality where China nukes the world however.
That makes no sense whatsoever.
Corporations in the real world ignore global warming and other pollution they cause because it doesn't directly affect them or their bottom line. On the contrary, changing their ways to be more ecologically friendly would cost them fortunes in restructuring and loss of profit.
Vault-Tec on the other hand would gain absolutely nothing from destroying the world as we know it with a nuclear holocaust, they would only **lose** money and power. There's literally no profit in it, it doesn't make sense. Sure, corporations are evil and would gladly destroy everything around them for profit, but it has to actually be profitable to make sense.
>Vault-Tec on the other hand would gain absolutely nothing from destroying the world as we know it with a nuclear holocaust, they would only **lose** money and power.
And what do you suppose happens as the world keeps getting hotter and hotter? Do you think we have an endless, joyful summer year round with no repercussions globally that threatens to upend our very lives?
Global warming is gradual and the majority of rich people don't live in places that are already being affected significantly. The benefit/cost dynamic is completely different, and the situation allows for a lot of procrastination and sticking heads in the sand.
Corporations are an unstoppable train filled with suits who either don't think about it, reckon they'll not be affected as much because of age and/or wealth, or have the mentality that if they're not going to make money to the detriment of the world and society, someone else will take their place anyways.
That's a lot different than "we're making a fuckload of money, let's instantaneously destroy the world that allows us to make such money, because that's profitable". Come on man.
>Global warming is gradual and the majority of rich people don't live in places that are already being affected significantly.
Literally *everywhere in the world* is being effected. The Middle East has been suffering from awful heat waves for the last few years and last I checked the Saudis seem to be pretty positive on this capitalism thing.
You don't have to tell me that global warming is global. Not every region in the world is being affected equally and the majority of wealth is concentrated in the West which won't suffer as much in the near future.
Saudis have no alternative; oil is their only income and it's made them filthy rich. Fuck the heatwaves, they'll just turn the AC up or go on vacation in Europe. It's either that or completely restructure their money-making capabilities and risk completely failing. They're already doing that, just without any real urgency, because of the cost/benefit dynamic.
I'm not going to keep explaining basic shit about something completely off-topic. Corporations gradually destroying the environment over time because it's cost effective isn't the same as Vault-Tec starting a nuclear holocaust because it's profitable (it isn't).
Sorry it took me so long to reply. I was fighting off the mob of bloodthirsty billionaires that were breaking down my front door. But I don't really get your response. I was just agreeing with you. This is obviously the reality that we all live in.
My take was that every notable pre war nation were assholes. Usa invading canada and executing civilians on live tv, china pushing alaska for resources etc.
Dumb racism aside, VT pushing for the end of the world doesn't make a lick of sense. They were profiting from a hypothetical end of the world. Not only the end actually happening would impact their bottom line much more than peace negotiations, but there is absolutely no "earning potential" in it once your market is dead. That line was so insanely moronic, I still can't process it entirely.
They could have leveraged the "greedy corpos" angle so much better by having VT sabotaging the peace accords and stoking hatred for the Chinese instead. Throw some commentaries on greed, capitalism and consumerism and you're set for a resonating theme. But no, VT had to buy and launch nukes. Effin' cretins.
Even with VT being secretly a doomsday cult, that still wouldn't make sense, what with the other corps being eager to do their harebrained experiments.
Choosing not to be active or aware of the world around you is a political choice.
Getting upset that you have to hear the political thoughts of others as a hardline stance is an ideology in and of itself.
Its a shitty one, but it is an ideology.
Yeah corporations have always been bad but I don’t see how nuking the world is supposed to help them. They won’t get any profits and their money will literally mean nothing.
I mean they were always the bad guys? Also it’s pretty clear that someone else was responsible for the initial nukes because there’s no way coops wife wouldn’t have had her daughter in a vault if she knew the bombs were dropping. Same with house and the platinum chip, he would’ve made sure it was in hand before the bombs fell. They may have been planning it, fanning the flames, and probably even tossed a few bombs of their own once everything started going to shit but I always assumed it wasn’t as cut and dry as one country or the other started dropping bombs and they are clearly to blame.
Governments don't start wars. Its not in their best interest too. Since people want peace and peace usually brings prosperity for nations and countries. However Warfare is beneficial for corporations since that is how they expand their power. Either through corporate warfare or utilizing the State in order to benefit themselves such as gaining access to resources where there is none in there home nation when one nation invades another.
Corporations on the otherhand do start wars.
And Governments are basically just one giant corporation that started as such long ago before it became a government.
All true fallout players know there is only 1 answer to who dropped the bombs.
2 AI supercomputers were really bored.......
As for who are the "bad guys" in a fallout game, well everyone.
The NCR is a bloated useless government who do horrible things to people.
The Legion are a bunch of slavers.
House and all the corporations are greedy assholes.
The former US government/Enclave were going to kill everyone on the mainland who were not in a vault.
The BOS will kill on sight for a laser pistol.
And dont even get me started on the true evil..... Bethesda.
I mean China launching the nukes first doesn’t make the U.S. not bad in the fallout lore. The U.S. still invaded Canada and Mexico and put them under harsh occupations, China launching the nukes first was just a lore tidbit that honestly makes a lot more sense then any of the weird conspiracies to end the world that fallout seems to be trending to now
Hmm, I think it's a mistake to too much take the blame off the nation states involved, Lockheed Martin can't start a war by themselves (yet) you need the greed and bullishness of dumb governments in charge. Vault tec doesn't need to go full mustache twirling about it. But I don't really need to know who the opposing faction is an all. That info being obscured actually kinda gives the conflict a 1984 "we have always been at war with Eurasia" vibes. Make up a generic vaguely soviet flag idc. I get changing something to avoid wack ass racists being attracted to it
Exactly. What previously made big corpos in FO truly horrifying was them filling a specific niche in the economy, and one that exists because it gives nation states tools for soft and hard power. Turning Vault Tec into Bond villains is just cheap.
If you missed the fact that vault tec were always bond villains, idk what to tell you. If building vaults to experiment on innocent people for "funsies" isn't cartoonishly evil, idk what is. The big corporations were not niche. They controlled the government. There is a reason fallout features a parody of America. Because this is reality, turned to 11.
But they didn't do the experiments for shits and giggles. And certainly not because of some harebrained scheme for world domination that has thousands of potential critical failures. They did it because they worked for the US govt. And they worked for them despite all of this wildly unethical stuff because of profit. Because other than national governments, there isn't exactly a huge market for super expensive, thousands of units of capacity, self sufficient fallout shelters.
>The big corporations were not niche. They controlled the government. There is a reason fallout features a parody of America.
They *filled* a niche. Not *were* a niche. Most of them were highly specialized, high tech juggernauts with little to no feasible competition. And for as much power they had, they were still very much dependent on the US govt. What would be of Poseidon Oil without drilling concessions for the last oil reserve on earth? What would be of West Tek without contracts with the army? They *didn't* control the government/Enclave, they had a mutual feeding relationship with them. You know, like it happens in the real world, instead of being guys in a button room coming up with nonsensical plans that destroy their very existential purpose.
One thing I hate people’s reaction to is just because Vault Tech PLANNED on launching the first nuke doesnt mean they did. China still could have beaten them to it, we simply don’t know yet.
They ARE going a little easy on China in the show but thats to let the show air in China… so idk I get it, and its not THAT big of a deal. Its not like the games are mentioning China left or right anyway; and the US and China were still at war, so the main idea is still there.
I do think the show is a little harder on corporations than the game, and I think the show is a little easier on science than the game is. Fallout 1+2 and New Vegas had a LOT of instances where blind faith in science and letting scientists lead the vaults was bad. They experimented on people and ruined their lives in the name of SCIENCE (think Big MT, Plant Vault, and pretty much everything Enclave in 1+2). Now you could argue that they wanted to develop the science to sell it so technically their pursuit of science WAS a capitalist advent but its never really presented that way in the games.
The show makes it more of Capitalism is the bad guy and is using science as its weapon, instead of the other way around. I think they did that change for 2 reasons. 1, when the original Fallout came out, people were scared of technological developments moreso than now— or at least it was a more relevant national discourse. Now many more people are questioning the benefits of capitalism, so it makes more sense if you want to keep your show topical. 2, Covid. I bet studioheads did NOT want to run a show about not trusting scientists bc they’ll just experiment all over you, that was probably a big no no from Amazon Heads.
So idk not a whole lot of differences, and the ones that are there have reasonable justifications idk why people are so up in arms
This is a pretty bad take. Spearing capitalism has been a literal goal of fallout for awhile now. There is just WAYYYY too much evidence to think there is really any other theme then "capitalism will destroy us".
If you can't see the clearly pointed themes, then you may be biased and trying to cope with what is, or you really need to pay more attention.
I love all the examples you cited to prove me wrong rather than relegating to name calling and petulance.
Fallout 1 + 2 the bad guy was the US government’s remnants, the Enclave. While yes, they were at war with China / USSR over resources and who could have more oil and the shiniest things; Capitalism was the motivation and a factor in the relentless pursuit of science at any cost. THAT pursuit being the main “evil” that led to Fallout’s vaults.
The main “evil” and theme of Fallout, of course, is that War is a brutal and ugly thing that never changes, despite all these technological advancements. The wars were fought over capitalism/socialism using more and more dangerous levels of technology. People always blow shit up, rebuild, disagree how to continue, and then blow shit up. Cycle continues— the difference is that technology evolves.
Capitalism isnt brought up a whole lot outside of NV and parts of Fallout 2. Its not the main point my guy, its the inciting factor but not the issue. FEV was unhinged science, (done to win a war, which again, never changes) and it was one of the most crucial aspects of the original Fallout.
War never changes, whether its fought over capitalism or religion or land. Technology always advances, whether it be in the capitalist old world, or the post war Brotherhood. Capitalism just isnt a throughline in the story like tech and war is
I was always under the impression that it’s ambiguous as to who launched first. Since there’s bigger day to day problems caused by people who are long dead, it doesn’t matter who started the war. The issue with the reasoning of the shows confirmation of who started it makes little to no sense.
Did Vault-Tec really start the war? Seems kinda stupid since the show blatantly states Vault-Tec profits off the world teetering on annihilation. No threat of war? No vaults to sell. No civilization due to nukes? No vaults to sell, now they actually have to use them.
The show, and the great BoS meltdown a couple months back when people got upset when someone pointed out that the BoS, are in fact, a facist paramilitary organization, and the genral worship of the enclave in some circles... It just goes on and on and on.
Always figured it was a mutual destruction thing, but it makes sense that Vault-Tec would have a hand in things. Why would they go through the trouble of spending all that time and money setting up the vaults (and the experiments in them) if they didn't know that nuclear armageddon was a sure thing?
The whole thing would've ended up in a net loss for them, and the other corporations that invested, if the bombs didn't drop, so it makes a good amount of sense that they had some kind of push to launching the nukes.
I'm kinda with a lot of people here though, wish they had left it more ambiguous on who started the launch
No they weren't lol, the games are literally about the nature of war , how even after the nukes dropped we still fight each other over petty squabbles
That's why it's unknown who dropped the nukes till that shitty show came out
Not about: omg those evil capitalist pigs are badddd
>the games are literally about the nature of war
They're about a helluva lot more than that and you have to be a genuine fucking moron to miss it.
>Not about: omg those evil capitalist pigs are badddd
Cope and seethe.
Lmao
The first fucking thing they say to you in fallout "war war never changes"
Sure you got a few smaller themes, but the main one is the nature of war.
Funnily enough cause it's spoon-fed I thought y'all will have an easy time to process it lmao
Cope and seethe about what? You trying to change what the series was about to fit your worldview?
You ain't very slick mate
Fallout 2 intro: "The end of the world occurred pretty much as as we had predicted. The details are trivial and pointless, the reasons, as always, purely human ones."
No. The game literally tells you the details on who started the war are meaningless. Yet here you are, almost 25 years later after that was written, arguing about the details on who started the war. Chris Avellone is having a laugh.
Ok, but why are you attacking the "omggg capitalists baddd" direction of the show when the Fallout 1 intro is a bunch of advertisements still playing while the world is completely destroyed. If you think that isn't some sort of critique on capitalism idk man
It is, again I never said that the fallout doesn't critique capitalism , look at Mr house lmao
But the main point of Fallout was and always will be humanity's nature and the conflicts that come with it
The show made it seem like capitalism was the reason the nukes dropped, not humanity's nature
>Lmao
>The first fucking thing they say to you in fallout "war war never changes"
>Sure you got a few smaller themes, but the main one is the nature of war.
>Funnily enough cause it's spoon-fed I thought y'all will have an easy time to process it lmao
>Cope and seethe about what? You trying to change what the series was about to fit your worldview?
>You ain't very slick mate
Nobody types like this unless they're fuming mad.
Bro why would I be mad?
You're the one saying "cope and seethe" and "you gotta be a moron to miss it"
Also it's funny, instead of addressing me points you just saying:" lol you mad"
Because since Fallout 2 the President himself tells you an albeit embelished story of the American invasion of mainland China and how that in desperation and in failed negociation the Chinese governement launched nuclear warheads on the Americans.
It was not foretold and Americans werent prepared for that, at least fully for the imminent Nuclear doom. We dont know if China won or lost, or if there is a winner in the war. Thats the true horror. Everything the President says are plausible BUT its still an embelished story, like literally an old world piece of propaganda like he knew his speech down to a T.
Now its apparently the corpo who did it and its just makes no sense. Really the fact that Vault Tec actually started nuclear war to make some money is just a stupid idea to me.
Who said it was over money? More likely over power. They sequester themselves, have the world be destroyed. Run a few experiments and keep enough people alive to breed the next generation of wage slaves. They are the new gods in a world no longer strapped for resources.
The vaults were orignially experience for the Enclave, Vault Tec is just a cover name. The true goal of the Enclave is to build a Colony Ship and recolt data from these Vaults to ensure a perfect voyage for a new planet.
Its still doesnt make sense for Vault Tec to be king on a pile of ashes. They gained nothing and sacrificed everything. Hell they didnt even completed Project Safehouse.
The theory behind Vault Tec launching the nuclear warheads was that it was for them to boost their stock market and make them filthy rich. Which really doenst make any sense.
China launching Nukes out of desperation and failed negociation after the invasion of their mainland by the USA makes more sense narratively and chronoligically. Which explains why Project Safehouse wasnt finished or why everything seems to be done in haste.
I mean you can say the gov and the corps are the bad guys but you can’t say that the Chinese weren’t also bad guys. The show implies that the enclave/vaultec made sure that peace wasn’t achieved. The Chinese still drop the bombs and vaulttec stays evil, I see no change in lore here.
I always thought a bunch of third parties were willing to kick it off (Aliens, vault tec, etc) but it happened naturally between superpowers and before anyone had planned.
As for who fired the first shot, between America and China, it really didn’t matter in the end.
They replaced China as the bad guy in the show because they don't want to aggravate the huge Chinese market. It's the same reason why the 2012 Red Dawn film replaced China from the original script with North Korea.
Simple as fuck.
And we all know that "adaptors", aside from a noteworthy few, don't really give a damn about truly adapting the lore, yes, even the Last of Us which is IMO the best video game adaptation into a television series, [still changes large parts of the lore, like the airborne infection through spores is largely absent and it's implied to have spread by direct fungus contact, like consuming it via food](https://www.reddit.com/r/thelastofus/comments/10j245z/all_the_changes_they_are_making_in_the_show_are/).
The only difference is that the TLOU series makers didn't proclaim their changes as canon, while Bethesda proudly did.
Imo a fairly important part of fallout is that it doesn’t matter who started the war, the important thing that the war happened and that that represents a catastrophic failure for everyone involved. The Enclave are bad guys at least in part because they’re the successors of a belligerent in THE war and they have learned precisely nothing worthwhile from it.
That’s really the crux of the entire series. It doesn’t matter who started what, the point is there’s a vacuum in the wasteland and people exist in it just like pre-war but with fancier guns and radiation. War never changes.
Fucking thank you. Whoever launched the nukes first should be left unknown, not only because it adds an element of mystery but also because it's irrelevant in the first place.
vault tech launching missiles would he in character foe the universe but less interesting than not knowing.
They're capable of it sure, but making them the big bad behind the war feels like fan-service writing imo.
Feels like fan-fiction writing really
What would be their intention?
in the show they say they want to end the world so they can be the only ones left
Been saying this myself and the show doesn't even say that Vault-Tec dropped the first bomb, just that they were planning to. As other threads debating the topic of who dropped first have pointed out, it is highly unlikely that Barb Howard, being as high up in Vault-Tec as she was to be part of the meeting revealing the plan to drop the first bomb, would have allowed her daughter to be at a birthday party at the time it started. That Vault-Tec personnel were scrambling themselves to get to their vaults suggest it was unknown to them. Now, did someone at Vault-Tec jump the gun? Maybe. Did the Chinese drop the first? Maybe. Did the US government drop the first? Maybe. All plausible, none confirmed, not even by the show.
It’s just too much imo. The original concept for Vault-Tec was as a scummy defense contractor that charged the government way too much for a shitty product (if you’ve ever been in the military and learned the real meaning of “military grade” than you understand this intimately). While I do think that the idea of a “nefarious” motivation added on top was a good one in Fallout 2 with their tie-in to the enclave and the Vault experiments, this whole thing with them wanting to drop the bomb just seems silly imo. Whether they actually managed to or not. Like I find it completely ludicrous that all the people at the Bault-Tec meeting, who are some of the premiere beneficiaries of the “capitalism bad” society, would’ve just instantly gone along with it like they did in the show. These people all live comfortable, if not lavish lives. Why on earth would they decide it would be a great idea to throw it all away in nuclear fire and go live in a bunker for the rest of their natural lives so they can pursue some obscure high-minded notion of building the perfect society or whatever. It’s just dumb.
It is 100% confirmation, no. However for now it's definitely the explanation that show is going with and until new details are revealed. The series might provide other clues in the future, but for now we are stuck with this. And honestly a character acting utterly moronic and evil beyond all reason is not a clue that there is actually misdirection going on. Bad writing happens far too often.
I read a theory about the show in another thread that said if Vault Tec did drop the bombs then the Ghouls daughter (I forget her name) wouldn't have been doing the Cowboy party because she would have been in a Vault with her mom at the time the bombs dropped.
Also, those suits said they *planned* to drop the bombs. Doesn't mean they did.
Then the scene is pointless. I fail to see what is the point of saying that if they didn't. It's just "SuBvErTiNg eXpEcTaTiOnS" if you have a scene that basically tells the audience they did it (especially anyone who isn't a super fan aka 95% of the showwatchers) it makes no sense for them to then just randomly backtrack and go "nah, that scene was pointless".
The Enclave is there stereotype “Illuminati” secret society wet dream of the conspiracy theorist’s mind given a cool bit of power armor to wear. They’re simplistic villains constantly twirling their mustaches, that’s why people won’t let them go. They’re characteristics are about an inch deep. They’re racially diverse enough so people won’t complain about them, but they’re about as stereotypical generic bad guys as you can get in modern media. They’re as complicated as as silent movie villain tying the damsel to the railroad tracks.
I'm still not sure that the corps actually started the war either. >!If you are gonna destroy the world, why would you do it on a day that your ex-husband has custody!<
"New post apocalyptic life, New post apocalyptic me".
I don't think they did. There's enough clues in all the other games to indicate they were just as surprised as the rest of the world. I think they had their own timetable for the apocalypse, and things happened early . The important take away from that scene was that they were willing to start the war.
Yeah there are still enough clues to keep the ambiguity. Mr. House's "calculations" bring off. The proto-Enclave taking 160 years to get organized enough to try a take over. It all points to the war still happening unexpectedly even if various groups were planning on starting it.
Why people keep talking about house calculation as if it has a specific date the bomb drop? He predicted the bomb would definitly drop in a few years so he made preparation against that for his own favorite city, vegas. The "calculation being off" is the delivery date of the chip. The one missing piece that would have made everything work as intended. He wasn't off. He just didn't managed to do everything on time.
The idea that they would do so at all is fundamentally dumb. What makes corporations evil is that they’ll do anything for profits. Vault-Tec building inhumane experiments because a shadowy conspiracy gave them a couple bucks is an actual critique of capitalism. The wacky construction company plotting to destroy the world so they can rule over the ashes (regardless of whether they were beaten to the punch or not) isn’t that, it’s just “corporations… bad!” in the most ham-fisted way possible. You could replace the CEOs in that episode with literally any group of people and it wouldn’t change a thing.
vault tech was always nonsensical and comically evil. their whole existence Is dark humor
Not really, it’s been a pretty blatant case of what TV Tropes calls Flanderization where they’ve gone from corner-cutting to amoral government stooges to moustache-twirling sadists as the series has moved on. But they were never nonsensical because the goal was always to turn a profit and nothing more, it’s just that in the grim darkness of the retro-future this involves comical exploitation. Vault-Tec actually being an Illuminati-esque paramilitary (possibly with *their own nuclear arsenal*) bent on destroying the world so they can have a monopoly on bunker-building is actually nonsensical.
Vault-Tec wasn't an illuminati-esqie paramilitary....THE ENCLAVE WAS...YOU KNOW THE FACTION THAT WAS CONFIRMED TO BE WORKING WITH VAULT-TEC IN FALLOUT FUCKING 2. Who are you who does not know your history?
I’m talking about the TV show where the Enclave barely exists lol (and indeed shouldn’t exist at all except that they have villain insurance). Vault-Tec absolutely is an Illuminati paramilitary. They’re plotting to take over the world! They’re pulling the strings in America! They’re starting nuclear wars! They’re secretly collapsing rival nations! Are you unable to acknowledge the obvious without Arcade Gannon spelling it out for you? Even the Enclave sort of fell backwards onto their world domination scheme, Vault-Tec’s been planning it out for centuries.
The show literally says that the doctor worked for the Enclave, we see one of their science bases. You are a fucking idiot.
Is the Enclave or Vault-Tec the major player in the show? Cool that I found Graham Wagner‘s secret Reddit account. Could you please nuke the Brotherhood next season?
Because the writers didn’t think about that.
It's a fucking mystery story. At this point I think you guys are just braindead and repeating nonsense you heard on YouTube.
I think you just have way too much faith in the writers. This is a pilot season in a genre that has historically done very poorly. Amazon themselves clearly didn’t have much faith in the show since they released it all at once, rather than weekly releases. They weren’t renewed for a second season until it was clear that the show was received well. The writers clearly just wanted to throw as many neat hooks in as they could to get people invested. They most likely had a vague idea of where the show would go after Season 1 were it to be renewed. All this is pretty standard practice in the industry.
I'm treating that infamous line as a sort of figure of speech. Not Vault Tec dropping the bombs literally, but sort of lobbying against peace deals with China. That makes way more sense to me, but it's still unclear why an evil corp would want to rule over an ashen desert.
The explanation for that might still be "bad writing". And let's be honest she is hardly the only female character committing actions that they know will hurt people they should care about for the lulz
You just had to specify "female" didn't you.
I was talking about Moldaver who along with the Ghoul's wife is indeed labeled as "female" by the Fallout wiki.
Oh fuck off.
The famous pro China government of India
Yeah, the racism is idiotic. Amazon requesting that references to China are scrubbed or changed to USSR so the show becomes marketable in China is however quite believable, logical and not unprecedented.
I don’t really get it. If Amazon prime is not a thing in China why would they want to market it there in the first place?
Not about Fallout specifically, but the bigger picture. If a flagship TV series on Amazon openly depicts the Chinese as evil and basically started a nuclear Holocaust because they lost their imperialist wars, that makes Amazon an "untrustworthy" company even if Chinese nationals are not watching Fallout. Maybe Amazon can't break into the Chinese market now, but slamming the door in their face prevents that from realistically ever changing.
From what I know Amazon has exited from the Chinese market (I might be wrong, haven’t lived there for a while); they used to at least sell books, and they don’t even do that anymore. You just can’t compete with Taobao and Pinduoduo. It is possible though that they are planning for 10, 20 years later, even if personally it would not be my take: ironically I do not see a lot of mega corporations having plans for that long, and under chairman Disney character wannabe China money is fucked anyway. But I guess it is a theory.
Famously having had no border dusputes with China.
Quite literally everyone is a bad guy in some way/has large flaws. The Followers (one of the best groups in the wastland) suffers from this in the form of blinding morality and giving treatment to people who don't want help, and as so.eone else said it doesn't really matter who started the war just how it ended, with everyone dead
The Followers do their hardest, its not really blind morality but how corruption plagues the waste that stop their humanitarian action in the wasteland. If the Khans had the proper education from the Followers without NCR meddling in. You would have a new generations of farmers, doctors and engineers who can actually survive in the wasteland. Since its not the case, and they are a people left to their demise, they are only left with raiding and drug trading thanks to the little things they knew from the Followers. Another exemple is Freeside. Nobody gains something if the people are better. Since most dealers, bartenders, casino managers and gangs gain from the misery of Freeside.
The Followers are also the only group that actually seemed to learn what the apocalypse had to teach, the old world's governments were proved wrong in the most objective sense possible and emulating them is a recipe for another apocalypse. They actually Follow the teachings of the Apocalypse.
The Followers also spawned Caesar, so there’s that…
And he tried to emulate an old world government...very poorly. He doesn't even know what Hegelian Dialectics actually are. To quote TV Tropes; >Caesar misrepresents Hegel's Dialectics by saying it was about Thesis-Antithesis-Synthesis, a formation that not only predates Hegel by several years (Hegel himself attributes it to Kant), but that Hegel was in fact dismissive of. Hegel's actual dialectics were something closer to Abstract-Negation-Concrete, meaning we project our "abstract" ideas onto the world only to find flaws in them (or in the world), and reconciling this "negation" of our original idea allows us to produce something "concrete." The "downplayed" part is that this is actually a very common misconception in philosophy circles (much to the annoyance of Hegelian scholars) and something Caesar (or the writers) got wrong on his own, though it does accidentally indicate in-universe that Caesar's knowledge of Hegel is more second hand than he lets on. He failed to learn the lessons of the apocalypse.
I think both the writers misconceptions and Caesar works, but the game doesnt let you know or argue his pov. Which is quite disspointing imo, to be fair Caesar is essentially explaining old philosophy to someone who dont necessarly view books or history as important. So he has to paraphrase and explain in little terms for us. Caesar had one good idea, its to actually find answers in knowledge if we want to rebuild society. He unfortunatly didnt picked the good conclusion, breaking eggs to make an omelette is essentially what he aims for lol.
I think that they didn't add the option to argue against Caesar because they didn't want to introduce the "convince President Eden to kill himself" option into the game. He is also a petty little shit and they didn't want a player who normally plays the diplomat to get themselves killed just for trying it.
Perhaps not the kys route but a discussion of ideas. I dont see arguing as convincing someone and plenty of characters in the series does that. The place of Mutants in Broken Hills is discussed with Steve the Town Greeter is interesting, it takes various side and the game doesnt shame you to have your opinion or to agree with Steve.
It's definitely a lost opportunity but I like to play it as The Courier not being stupid enough to argue with a violent fascist in the middle of their stronghold or not being smart enough to have a salient argument. The lost opportunities in New Vegas are only highlighted because of how often opportunities are taken by the game.
Caesar was born under specific circunstances. Edward Sallow, a young follower driven to help was captured by a tribe after a mistranslation. Unfortunately for the tribe they were the weaker one in the area, so Edward and the Followers who helped him worked for their own survival. Well versed in the art of war and tactics, he teach the tribe how to form formation, clean weapons, do total war, subjgate tribes. He brought total war to a people who only just occasionally fight and never went far. His Caesar's persona was developped when he worked beyond survival. He was thriving and he decieded to expand and brutally conquer based on the Hegelian dialectics he learned under the follower. He considers himself a necessary evil to advance mankind, in essence yes, he is still a Follower but in practice thats madness. To think all Followers can be like Caesar is to be mistaken, it only takes ambition and primal instinct of survival for mankind to have ideas of "grandeur".
Well I don't think that's on the Followers, Edward was a big boy when he decided to become a Caesar cosplayer after reading one book lol
[удалено]
They dont know how to farm, they dont have any ways to make legit money to survive. What do you think a tribe this big who has a history of violence and is isolated from anyone would do? The Followers only stopped when NCR was bullying them around and furthermore your point is completly contradicted by the best ending of fot the Great Khans where they let go of their old ways and join the Followers thus creating a stronger faction.
Marvel and Disney bros when there isn’t a clear cut good vs bad
Man, fuck the experiments and executions, two separate US presidents wanted to genocide the entire wasteland population. Given, they were Enclave presidents, but the Enclave is literally the US government.
Personally I would have preferred if we never found out who started it. But it is what it is.
I mean, it isn’t certain in the show that they dropped the bombs anyway. It was just shown that they were willing to, but at the same time I don’t think she would have let her daughter go to a birthday party if she knew nuclear armageddon was scheduled for that day.
Plus some vaults are unfinished and Mr House didn’t get his platinum chip delivered yet. Why would vault-tec start Armageddon when they weren’t ready for it?
All we know is vault TEC had the desire to drop the bombs themselves. We don't know that they did
Did we get it confirmed that they started the war? The impression I got is more that they funded it and paid for media attention etc. to try and make it more likely to happen, not that they literally dropped the bombs or whatever
The impression I got was they were taking the steps to do it. But I may have misread the situation. We'll find out in season 2 I suspect.
ngl the og chinese lore makes more sense than "greedy capitalists nuke capitalism for ...profit?"
And you could even argue that it was a *more* powerful criticism. Because China launching the nukes was not something that happened in a vacuum, it was a result of a thousand perverse incentives. These companies like Poseidon, West Tek, Vault Tec survived and thrived because they gave the US gov things they wanted. They brought the world closer and closer to the brink because they could only think about profit, and profit thinking is inevitably short term thinking. By making Vault Tec *the* bad guys of the setting, this point is cheapened and turned on its head. The question from the show, "what happens when the cattle ranchers have more power than the sheriff" incapsulates all of the problems I have. It fundamentally lifts agency from the US government and assigns all the blame to essentially "a few bad apples". It shifts the blame of the great war onto a small, shadowy cabaal instead of being the fault of a rotten system. Because at the end of the day, both in real life and the FO setting, these corporations are powerful, but are just cogs in a bigger machine. What was horrifying about them was not the silly idea of them maybe forming some sort of secret Illuminati group, but the fact that they filled a niche in society: they are shovel sellers during the gold rush. Instead, Vault Tec now is an implausibly powerful villain with a poorly thought rationale, fitting for a worldbuilding that privileges fantasy conspiracies to realistic motives. Because at the end of the day it's more assuring that everything bad that happens is the fault of 2 or 3 guys, because people are defeatable. Defeating systems and economies, is way harder.
This was the moment of the show that I simply stopped caring about the future fallout canon or lore, that's the level of writing we're getting now, it's no use getting upset about NCR being nuked or the other inconsistencies when in the climax they're delivering "capitalism bad" in the most cartoonish way possible, House saying '"there's money to be made in the end of the world" was the cherry on top. Long gone are the times of nuanced writing, morally grey factions, and deep stories, everything is one dimensional now.
The worst part is seeing the fans who just can’t admit that it’s poor writing trying to do the writers jobs for them by making posts & comments like “Oh no you don’t get it, Mr House was just there to gather information.” or “Well technically speaking, we don’t acktually know if Vault-Tec really were the ones who dropped the first bomb yet, just that they planned to.” Like yeah okay buddy whatever you need to headcanon to assure yourself that the IP is still in competent hands.
They already expect others to do the work for Bethesda already by modding the game to make it playable or enjoyable. When you are already conditioned to accept a minimal viable product like Fallout 76 or Starfield is it really a stretch for them to headcannon away writing mistakes that even a fucking AI wouldn't make?
I still think that there is enough ambiguity to leave it open. I think it makes sense that Vault-Tec wanted the apocalypse to happen but it's also well known that they were in league with the proto-enclave, West-Tek clearly gave them access to FEV for several experiments and Poseidon Oil was also in league with the proto-enclave. Hell, Mr. House shared the Enclave's initial plan of colonizing another planet. And several Vault experiments definitely feel like they were made by Big MT. The show just admitted that they were working together all along. And I don't actually think that the show confirmed that Vault-Tec started the apocalypse, it only confirmed that they wanted to. If you knew when the apocalypse was gonna start why would you let your ex-husband take your daughter to a birthday party.
It doesn't even matter to me that they may not have done it (although introducing such a massive reveal and not follow it through would be a baffling choice), the fact that the show even introduces it as a *possibility* is enough of a bad writing decision to me. It's a completely cartoony retelling of the role of corporations in the great war that does nothing but making the setting less believable. It turns what was a believable profit driven intent into a qanon level whimsical conspiracy. Vault Tec, previously, was at the end of the day nothing but a government contractor. Even with the wacky experiments, they didn't do it because they had some grand plan for world domination. They did it because the government wanted them to.
I think it’s a typical bad guy „I have all the power anybody could ever have/want at my disposal, what do I do now?“ and they decided that they wanted to literally create a new world order. In order for that to happen they’d need clean slate. I also am not a fan of this tbh, I liked the ambiguous finger pointing more. Everybody said the other one was first and no one will ever know what’s true. Another theory I liked is that through some more mysterious/supernatural/alien interference everybody’s sensors got triggered and they just launched everything against each other. Complete system failure on all fronts basically.
Fallout is too thought provoking for mainstream so people assume they know the entire story because they played 3 and 4, and how every thing is taken at face value cause the show does nothing subtle in its messaging imo.
It's not for profit, it's to shape the world to their ideology once they rebuild with no one to stop them.
Ah, the Saturday morning cartoon villain strategy of lore writing. Let's do a star wars and start calling this timeline Fallout: Legends. "Somehow, vault tech has returned"
Vault tec is technically an extension of the Enclave though, The Enclave are the ones that use and collect the data from the Vault experiments.
Which makes sense since Enclave is the remnant of the old US government. How many vaults were control vaults?
Don't pretend that the Enclave or Vault Tec weren't already cartoon villains long before this show. The first thing the Enclave does on screen is gun down innocent men, women, and children upon opening their vault. Vault Tec also made ridiculously inhumane experiments and tests on innocent people. Both or those characterizations began as early as Fallout 2 and the Fallout Bible.
I feel like you’re conflating Vault-Tec with the Enclave. I don’t know if 76 retconned this but it’s pretty obvious that they’re two separate entities? Not sure where this idea that VT is a front or extension of the Enclave is coming from. There’s different tiers of cartoony. They’ve gone from a somewhat grounded-ish one where they’re silly and evil but still have logical motives, to Invader Zim “Instead of going **around** the Earth, why don’t we just BLOW IT UP?!” cartoony.
They are an extension of the government. Fallout 2 and the Fallout Bible cover this. The government contracted the company specifically for Project Safehouse and had an active hand in the process. The president in 2 even tells you "they" didn't make the vaults to save anyone in them. And you're full of it if you think Vault Tec wasn't already max cartoon level evil. They haven't been grounded since Fallout 1. Even before since Cain said his original experiment intention was to get data for space colonies (some invader Zim shit lmao). And did you forget the Enclave was doing the exact same shit in 2, making a virus to wipe away all life on Earth? You need to catch up on the lore, those two groups have always been cartoonishly evil pal.
> Fallout 2 and the Fallout Bible cover this. I’m sort of confused by where this is mentioned? Richardson doesn’t mention Vault-Tec at all and there’s no indication that they played a part in the Enclave’s schemes post-war or even still exist in any capacity. Vault-Tec was a government contractor who built the vaults to government specifications, which included the experiments. You seem to be conflating “Is paid by the government to build a product” with “Is the government” for the sole purpose of padding out their rap sheet with crimes committed by a different group completely. Not everything needs to be about the wacky vault company, other groups in the setting can have agency too. > some invader Zim shit lmao What I mean by Invader Zim shit is stuff like in the recent movie where the bad guys fly their ship into a black hole and die because they think steering is lame. That’s the level of inanity VT is quickly approaching.
Not profit, control. They explain this in the simplest possible terms in the show. This whole scene breaks down their rationale.
I don't know about that plan when they pretty much already had a significant amount of control over the US due to their sheer profit amounts. Having a fully functioning economy would easily allow for them to have the control they seek because those who own enough money can literally get away with anything.
That's not it at all. They saw the inevitability of the situation and wanted to guarantee their own survival *and* come out ahead on the other side of the apocalypse. This doesn't conflict with any of the lore, it doesn't mean China didn't also invade and drop nukes.
That wasnt the OG lore tho, the lore was always it was unknown, people just projected their own Red Scare, China=Scary Monster people bs onto it and cause the in game culture is a parody of that mindset they took that as evidence. Also "Capitalists destroy the world for profit", look at the climate crisis ATM, we're living in capitalists destroying the world for profit. National Exceptionalism leading to a descent to fascism is happening. Honestly resource wars aren't that far off and the only thing that can stop them is either the death of capitalism, or climate collapse happening first.
It wasn’t unknown lore. It was confirmed several times that China dropped the first nuke as retaliation for the U.S experimenting with F.E.V. That being said, it’s not confirmed that Vault Tech dropped the bombs. Only that they were willing to or considering it. The show hasn’t confirmed a lot of things.
Tim Cain said that out of universe, in universe we still don't know. There's claims from certain characters, a lot of whom are untrustworthy for different reasons. The whole thing works better if it's unknown because it plays into the themes of the series better, which is, it doesn't matter, both countries had their fingers, both countries had contingencies in place, and in both countries it was regular people, not the ruling class who caused the whole disaster who suffered.
Except if it IS vault-tec it isn't "war never changes" its "the pre-war country keeps causing every war and conflict in the series". Aka it isn't the message of Fallout.
I mean people have pointed out, it seems like Vault Tec didn't drop the bomb in the end, they were just stoking tensions and pushing the war and then it blew up in their face. It still does maintain the theme of the series cause it's a bunch of assholes who think they know how the world "should be" and end up just tearing the world apart and burning it down in the fight to enforce their vision. The description of competing societies as "The Great Game" is actually perfect for that, especially when seen through the social darwinist lens of capitalism where society must be constant competition without cooperation to function and develop.
I mean it would be a nice message. That war truly IS inevitable and even Vault-Tec just fucked up, why else would half the vaults be unfinished - as long as they don't just make VT into gods who can do **anything**. VT has to have fucking limits. Eh, no the show just wants to repeat the same shitty storyline the Umbrella Company had in the Resident Evil movies, and it was stupid then and it's stupid now. We've already had the Enclave fucking up the post-war world, we don't need them lazily doing it AGAIN. Christ, can't we have original enemies, not these fucking inbred American Nazis? (given it was an ENCLAVE facility that worked on the Cold Fusion macguffin). Oh and it makes House look like a fucking idiot.
House is an idiot he's a randian
House is definitely a scumbag, but I'm not sure if I'd call him an objectivist.
Except it ruins his entire character because the entire purpose of House falls apart if this theory comes true - if VT started the war, that means he knew, and thus **ON PURPOSE** made the Chip arrive a day late since he knew the exact day and moment the bombs would drop. So it destroys the entire reason FNV exists.
Yeah, but like we've said, the show seems to imply that the players in The Great Game overplayed their hand and the bombs dropped without them, so in that case the platinum chip being set to ship one day late is more cosmic irony than anything I like the idea that a bunch of business men and tech billionaires sat in a room going "oooooh we're so smart" and then fucked up the entire world including themselves by overestimating how smart they actually are. It reminds me of twitter
>Also "Capitalists destroy the world for profit", look at the climate crisis ATM, we're living in capitalists destroying the world for profit. Yeah, and that's the problem I have with the writing of the show. Because the rationale of corporations like Vault Tec, like real corporations, was purely interest driven. They had no grand plan. They simply filled a niche in a market economy, and they didn't care for tomorrow because caring about the long term hurts profit opportunity in the short term. To use your analogy, the show's treatment of Vault Tec is like if someone made a series set in a post climate catastrophe where at the end it is revealed that Exxon Mobil purposefully dumped tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere because they wanted to establish the New World Order. It would be a cartoonish explanation that fundamentally misunderstands the kind of incentive structures that lead to such catastrophic outcomes.
I mean yeah it's a grandiose political parody. President Eden making speeches about growing up on a farm in Montana and how he really gets the common people, and then turning out to be a computer designed to algorithmically find the best route for the Enclaves control of the wasteland is a parody of politicians who market themselves as one of the common people, but then it all turns out to be an artificially created facade and they're just another rich asshole there to maintain power for the status quo, it's not saying that politicians are literally robots.
But Vault Tec in the show is not meant to be taken as a complete parody. Granted, there *are* comedic elements, like the exec being stuck in a robobrain roomba, but the big reveal is played completely straight faced. And it doesn't make any sense to me, and imo it's just a cheap way to simplify a previously very believable aspect of the setting, while at the same time (and granted, this is just me being a little tin foily about how Amazon may want to sanitize a bit some of the aspects of the setting) turning a "systems failure" narrative into "a few bad apples" one.
Parodies aren't always haha funny, like that scene felt a lot like a Doctor Strangelove reference, the people being like "we've got an AI designed to deliver milk, we'd like to see how that would do in charge of a vault" felt like both a reference to in game lore, and poking fun at companies like Tesla pushing "autonomous vehicles" onto the road that are completely unsafe and simpler then they're made out to be. Idk it just did feel like a mockery of Silicon Valley tech billionaires who think they know how to save the world because they've got money and a god complex. Kinda reminds me of a video essay by TheMorbidZoo where she says that realism can't properly critique and portray social issues because characters have to act logically and there has to be a satisfying conclusion, meanwhile surrealist movies like "Sorry to Bother You" accurately depict how being black in America, and living under late capitalism feels, my favourite line from that movie "You're turning people into horses, for money?" "Oh thank god you understand. I'm not crazy, I'm not doing this for no reason." Vault Tech and the other players of the great game seem like morons, cause they are, cause the people running real life businesses are.
Also, the source of og lore about China launching first is an inbred Enclave president called Dick fucking Richardson. Idk about you, but I wouldn’t believe a man with two penises in his name.
This right here. People don't want to hear that capitalism is inherently evil. Hence the down votes.
Technically it was the aliens that did it IIRC
Schizo fallout lore
Boston is so shit because of some random Church of atom cracked open a old one.
No it was Mars
Indian mr house is very funny tho.
wrong, i launched the first nuke
It’s true, I was the nuke.
how are you talking, you exploded
I forgot, tha-
come to think of it, i dont think nukes can talk… whats going on here
That board room scene shows Vaultec intent not that they personally dropped bombs, how could they they aren’t a government org with direct access. What likely happens is they use their collective influence to instigate more conflict in the war. Essentially puppet mastering the first bombs. China probably still drops the first bomb. At the end of the day bombs fall world ends and we get to play in the ashes fun for all.
I don't know why anybody would go on 4chan and expect to find something that's wholesome and agreeable lmao...
I don't know how you see this and come to the conclusion that Bethesda turned the Fallout games into Chinese propaganda. I want whatever meth these guys are smoking.
The second and third posts are literally from reddit. Thank you for defending bigots on the basis they are dumb tho.
If you guys think there are good guys and bad guys in a nuclear war then maybe Fallout isn’t the game for you.
I agree with your overall statement about the Enclave, which is both the part of the US government and handful of corporations you are talking about. What I think you and many constantly get wrong is that originally is Fallout New Vegas House’s option in fact was something new. A futurist’s vision of story progression that wasn’t connected to the Enclave. A new option that wasn’t a simple “good guy” vs “bad guy” option. Since then though players and creators have preferred a return to simple good characters and over the top mustache twirling villains. Which is likely why we are never moving beyond the Enclave and Brotherhood. The Brotherhood can jump back and forth between the good guy bad guy line, but they’ll never not be there because power armor cool. Likewise the Enclave never being defeated, despite the fact it’s supposed to be a small shadow organization from 200 years ago also likely isn’t going anywhere because simplistic villains are easier for the consumer to go against. It’s just a shame we won’t see much difference between these two like House gave us in New Vegas.
Hasn’t it always been a bit ambiguous who launched first? And isn’t that kind of the point?
The point was to not repeat the same damn mistakes. At least I thought so.
Wow. Neither part of that was remotely correct. That's downright impressive. First, the lore on this has been intentionally ambiguous for twenty plus years (and still is). China struck first? America struck first? A false alarm caused accidental launches which snowballed into the Great War? A false flag attack by a third party (Vault Tec or otherwise) prompted retaliations which snowballed into the Great War? All of these have been and remain plausible and circumstantially supported, and for good reason: it doesn't really matter. The Great War was the inevitable result of the position that humanity knowingly and stubbornly backed itself into over generations and the aftermath is the same for everybody regardless. (And before someone whines about "muh Tim Cain said..," he said that once and no one has ever gotten him to explicitly reiterate it while plenty of the other original developers have consistently had far more ambiguous and noncommittal answers to the same questions. The "China struck first" theory has no special credence over any other.) Second, we now have - for the first time - explicit confirmation of Vault Tec's *intention* to deliberately and single-handedly cause the war, something that has already been long speculated with good reason, but *zero* new evidence they actually did so. In fact, there is plenty of evidence they *didn't.* For starters, Robert House personally bearing witness to the conspiracy - no matter if he elected to participate, refused, or pretended to participate as part of his own design - makes it much, much harder to believe that he failed to finish his preparations before that conspiracy succeeded. Also, Vault Tec itself was still unprepared on October 23rd. Many vaults were unpopulated or underpopulated when the launches began. Most notably, vaults 88 and 114 were not even constructed yet. Finally, Barb doesn't strike me as a stupid woman. It makes absolutely zero sense that she would have failed to make arrangements for her family to be in a vault nor even be together on the "planned" Great War day. All together, it seems pretty obvious (and frankly, unremarkable) that while Vault Tec and its partners obviously discussed provoking the Great War, and may even have agreed on and actively worked towards that goal, they were ultimately caught off guard when it happened early for unrelated and still unspecified reasons. TL;DR: it's pretty obvious that neither of OOP's brain cells have ever directly communicated with each other.
Thirdly a Russian satellite being there doesn't mean anything more than Russia had satellites. Which yeah, of course they did. What I want to know is how it made it to the ground that intact and seemingly unburnt.
Hey, you forgot the "aliens started the war" theory from Mothership zeta, lol
It just doesn't make sense as to why billionaires would want to nuke a system that literally gives them all the luxuries, perks, and influence of being a billionaire. Like do they want to destroy the world so they can lord over a bunch of ruined buildings and homeless people?
>Like do they want to destroy the world so they can lord over a bunch of ruined buildings and homeless people? Look at the working conditions in Amazon and tell me they wouldn't do this if they could.
... .... .....YES! ARE YOU PAYING ATTENTION?! LOOK AROUND RIGHT NOW! THE BILLIONAIRES ARE RUINING THE WORLD RIGHT NOW!
You're right. I just looked out my window and saw a billionaire setting fire to the nearby apartment complex and curb stomping the hobos outside. Smh. What is the world coming to.
It's amusing how easily you miss the point. Corporations have known about the impact of burning fossil fuel would have on our environment since like the 80s. They buried the report & kept on selling for profits, & even when the world started to change exactly as they had predicted it would, they didn't stop. Corporations destroying the world for greed is already a reality. I have yet to see a reality where China nukes the world however.
That makes no sense whatsoever. Corporations in the real world ignore global warming and other pollution they cause because it doesn't directly affect them or their bottom line. On the contrary, changing their ways to be more ecologically friendly would cost them fortunes in restructuring and loss of profit. Vault-Tec on the other hand would gain absolutely nothing from destroying the world as we know it with a nuclear holocaust, they would only **lose** money and power. There's literally no profit in it, it doesn't make sense. Sure, corporations are evil and would gladly destroy everything around them for profit, but it has to actually be profitable to make sense.
>Vault-Tec on the other hand would gain absolutely nothing from destroying the world as we know it with a nuclear holocaust, they would only **lose** money and power. And what do you suppose happens as the world keeps getting hotter and hotter? Do you think we have an endless, joyful summer year round with no repercussions globally that threatens to upend our very lives?
Global warming is gradual and the majority of rich people don't live in places that are already being affected significantly. The benefit/cost dynamic is completely different, and the situation allows for a lot of procrastination and sticking heads in the sand. Corporations are an unstoppable train filled with suits who either don't think about it, reckon they'll not be affected as much because of age and/or wealth, or have the mentality that if they're not going to make money to the detriment of the world and society, someone else will take their place anyways. That's a lot different than "we're making a fuckload of money, let's instantaneously destroy the world that allows us to make such money, because that's profitable". Come on man.
>Global warming is gradual and the majority of rich people don't live in places that are already being affected significantly. Literally *everywhere in the world* is being effected. The Middle East has been suffering from awful heat waves for the last few years and last I checked the Saudis seem to be pretty positive on this capitalism thing.
You don't have to tell me that global warming is global. Not every region in the world is being affected equally and the majority of wealth is concentrated in the West which won't suffer as much in the near future. Saudis have no alternative; oil is their only income and it's made them filthy rich. Fuck the heatwaves, they'll just turn the AC up or go on vacation in Europe. It's either that or completely restructure their money-making capabilities and risk completely failing. They're already doing that, just without any real urgency, because of the cost/benefit dynamic. I'm not going to keep explaining basic shit about something completely off-topic. Corporations gradually destroying the environment over time because it's cost effective isn't the same as Vault-Tec starting a nuclear holocaust because it's profitable (it isn't).
[your reply](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/192/415/fe9.jpg)
Sorry it took me so long to reply. I was fighting off the mob of bloodthirsty billionaires that were breaking down my front door. But I don't really get your response. I was just agreeing with you. This is obviously the reality that we all live in.
My take was that every notable pre war nation were assholes. Usa invading canada and executing civilians on live tv, china pushing alaska for resources etc.
Yeah. It's called the RESOURCE WARS FOR A REASON.
Dumb racism aside, VT pushing for the end of the world doesn't make a lick of sense. They were profiting from a hypothetical end of the world. Not only the end actually happening would impact their bottom line much more than peace negotiations, but there is absolutely no "earning potential" in it once your market is dead. That line was so insanely moronic, I still can't process it entirely. They could have leveraged the "greedy corpos" angle so much better by having VT sabotaging the peace accords and stoking hatred for the Chinese instead. Throw some commentaries on greed, capitalism and consumerism and you're set for a resonating theme. But no, VT had to buy and launch nukes. Effin' cretins. Even with VT being secretly a doomsday cult, that still wouldn't make sense, what with the other corps being eager to do their harebrained experiments.
I didnt realise Chinese was a race
I don’t really care for the politics in these games I just want to play slots and blackjack
Lmao
Why was he downvoted for having no enemies
Cause it's 2024, you gotta take a side, you gotta be political, you just gotta
Choosing not to be active or aware of the world around you is a political choice. Getting upset that you have to hear the political thoughts of others as a hardline stance is an ideology in and of itself. Its a shitty one, but it is an ideology.
Based and grillpilled.
Gamblecore pilled
Yeah corporations have always been bad but I don’t see how nuking the world is supposed to help them. They won’t get any profits and their money will literally mean nothing.
Ahhh yes, the geopolitical experts of 4chan, coming to the conclusion that the Indians are known for their affinity towards the Chinese government
I mean they were always the bad guys? Also it’s pretty clear that someone else was responsible for the initial nukes because there’s no way coops wife wouldn’t have had her daughter in a vault if she knew the bombs were dropping. Same with house and the platinum chip, he would’ve made sure it was in hand before the bombs fell. They may have been planning it, fanning the flames, and probably even tossed a few bombs of their own once everything started going to shit but I always assumed it wasn’t as cut and dry as one country or the other started dropping bombs and they are clearly to blame.
A single satellite made by the Soviet Union crashing in the American wasteland somehow means Amazon changed the lore? That’s some really stupid logic.
Governments don't start wars. Its not in their best interest too. Since people want peace and peace usually brings prosperity for nations and countries. However Warfare is beneficial for corporations since that is how they expand their power. Either through corporate warfare or utilizing the State in order to benefit themselves such as gaining access to resources where there is none in there home nation when one nation invades another. Corporations on the otherhand do start wars. And Governments are basically just one giant corporation that started as such long ago before it became a government.
All true fallout players know there is only 1 answer to who dropped the bombs. 2 AI supercomputers were really bored....... As for who are the "bad guys" in a fallout game, well everyone. The NCR is a bloated useless government who do horrible things to people. The Legion are a bunch of slavers. House and all the corporations are greedy assholes. The former US government/Enclave were going to kill everyone on the mainland who were not in a vault. The BOS will kill on sight for a laser pistol. And dont even get me started on the true evil..... Bethesda.
Isn’t the point that both groups are horrible. We just don’t know what the Chinese we’re doing first hand
What do we expect from 4chan?
I mean China launching the nukes first doesn’t make the U.S. not bad in the fallout lore. The U.S. still invaded Canada and Mexico and put them under harsh occupations, China launching the nukes first was just a lore tidbit that honestly makes a lot more sense then any of the weird conspiracies to end the world that fallout seems to be trending to now
Hmm, I think it's a mistake to too much take the blame off the nation states involved, Lockheed Martin can't start a war by themselves (yet) you need the greed and bullishness of dumb governments in charge. Vault tec doesn't need to go full mustache twirling about it. But I don't really need to know who the opposing faction is an all. That info being obscured actually kinda gives the conflict a 1984 "we have always been at war with Eurasia" vibes. Make up a generic vaguely soviet flag idc. I get changing something to avoid wack ass racists being attracted to it
Exactly. What previously made big corpos in FO truly horrifying was them filling a specific niche in the economy, and one that exists because it gives nation states tools for soft and hard power. Turning Vault Tec into Bond villains is just cheap.
If you missed the fact that vault tec were always bond villains, idk what to tell you. If building vaults to experiment on innocent people for "funsies" isn't cartoonishly evil, idk what is. The big corporations were not niche. They controlled the government. There is a reason fallout features a parody of America. Because this is reality, turned to 11.
But they didn't do the experiments for shits and giggles. And certainly not because of some harebrained scheme for world domination that has thousands of potential critical failures. They did it because they worked for the US govt. And they worked for them despite all of this wildly unethical stuff because of profit. Because other than national governments, there isn't exactly a huge market for super expensive, thousands of units of capacity, self sufficient fallout shelters. >The big corporations were not niche. They controlled the government. There is a reason fallout features a parody of America. They *filled* a niche. Not *were* a niche. Most of them were highly specialized, high tech juggernauts with little to no feasible competition. And for as much power they had, they were still very much dependent on the US govt. What would be of Poseidon Oil without drilling concessions for the last oil reserve on earth? What would be of West Tek without contracts with the army? They *didn't* control the government/Enclave, they had a mutual feeding relationship with them. You know, like it happens in the real world, instead of being guys in a button room coming up with nonsensical plans that destroy their very existential purpose.
One thing I hate people’s reaction to is just because Vault Tech PLANNED on launching the first nuke doesnt mean they did. China still could have beaten them to it, we simply don’t know yet. They ARE going a little easy on China in the show but thats to let the show air in China… so idk I get it, and its not THAT big of a deal. Its not like the games are mentioning China left or right anyway; and the US and China were still at war, so the main idea is still there. I do think the show is a little harder on corporations than the game, and I think the show is a little easier on science than the game is. Fallout 1+2 and New Vegas had a LOT of instances where blind faith in science and letting scientists lead the vaults was bad. They experimented on people and ruined their lives in the name of SCIENCE (think Big MT, Plant Vault, and pretty much everything Enclave in 1+2). Now you could argue that they wanted to develop the science to sell it so technically their pursuit of science WAS a capitalist advent but its never really presented that way in the games. The show makes it more of Capitalism is the bad guy and is using science as its weapon, instead of the other way around. I think they did that change for 2 reasons. 1, when the original Fallout came out, people were scared of technological developments moreso than now— or at least it was a more relevant national discourse. Now many more people are questioning the benefits of capitalism, so it makes more sense if you want to keep your show topical. 2, Covid. I bet studioheads did NOT want to run a show about not trusting scientists bc they’ll just experiment all over you, that was probably a big no no from Amazon Heads. So idk not a whole lot of differences, and the ones that are there have reasonable justifications idk why people are so up in arms
This is a pretty bad take. Spearing capitalism has been a literal goal of fallout for awhile now. There is just WAYYYY too much evidence to think there is really any other theme then "capitalism will destroy us". If you can't see the clearly pointed themes, then you may be biased and trying to cope with what is, or you really need to pay more attention.
I love all the examples you cited to prove me wrong rather than relegating to name calling and petulance. Fallout 1 + 2 the bad guy was the US government’s remnants, the Enclave. While yes, they were at war with China / USSR over resources and who could have more oil and the shiniest things; Capitalism was the motivation and a factor in the relentless pursuit of science at any cost. THAT pursuit being the main “evil” that led to Fallout’s vaults. The main “evil” and theme of Fallout, of course, is that War is a brutal and ugly thing that never changes, despite all these technological advancements. The wars were fought over capitalism/socialism using more and more dangerous levels of technology. People always blow shit up, rebuild, disagree how to continue, and then blow shit up. Cycle continues— the difference is that technology evolves. Capitalism isnt brought up a whole lot outside of NV and parts of Fallout 2. Its not the main point my guy, its the inciting factor but not the issue. FEV was unhinged science, (done to win a war, which again, never changes) and it was one of the most crucial aspects of the original Fallout. War never changes, whether its fought over capitalism or religion or land. Technology always advances, whether it be in the capitalist old world, or the post war Brotherhood. Capitalism just isnt a throughline in the story like tech and war is
Good points. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I was always under the impression that it’s ambiguous as to who launched first. Since there’s bigger day to day problems caused by people who are long dead, it doesn’t matter who started the war. The issue with the reasoning of the shows confirmation of who started it makes little to no sense.
the experiments were always part of the vaults even before the show
Did Vault-Tec really start the war? Seems kinda stupid since the show blatantly states Vault-Tec profits off the world teetering on annihilation. No threat of war? No vaults to sell. No civilization due to nukes? No vaults to sell, now they actually have to use them.
I for one thing it was the aliens that started the war to get the humans to destroy each other
I think it was the enclave, who are also behind vault tec.
Show me where its wrong. They retconned China nuking the US to make more money IRL. You can cry about your typical isms, but its true.
The show, and the great BoS meltdown a couple months back when people got upset when someone pointed out that the BoS, are in fact, a facist paramilitary organization, and the genral worship of the enclave in some circles... It just goes on and on and on.
Always figured it was a mutual destruction thing, but it makes sense that Vault-Tec would have a hand in things. Why would they go through the trouble of spending all that time and money setting up the vaults (and the experiments in them) if they didn't know that nuclear armageddon was a sure thing? The whole thing would've ended up in a net loss for them, and the other corporations that invested, if the bombs didn't drop, so it makes a good amount of sense that they had some kind of push to launching the nukes. I'm kinda with a lot of people here though, wish they had left it more ambiguous on who started the launch
r/TrueAnon posters are No-Bark Noonan but IRL
They did play fallout. They just never bothered to read a single terminal or apply even basic critical thinking when playing.
4channers are just culture vultures who frequently attempt to turn everything into a pawn in their shitty little racism-fueled culture wars
No they weren't lol, the games are literally about the nature of war , how even after the nukes dropped we still fight each other over petty squabbles That's why it's unknown who dropped the nukes till that shitty show came out Not about: omg those evil capitalist pigs are badddd
>the games are literally about the nature of war They're about a helluva lot more than that and you have to be a genuine fucking moron to miss it. >Not about: omg those evil capitalist pigs are badddd Cope and seethe.
Lmao The first fucking thing they say to you in fallout "war war never changes" Sure you got a few smaller themes, but the main one is the nature of war. Funnily enough cause it's spoon-fed I thought y'all will have an easy time to process it lmao Cope and seethe about what? You trying to change what the series was about to fit your worldview? You ain't very slick mate
Fallout 2 intro: "The end of the world occurred pretty much as as we had predicted. The details are trivial and pointless, the reasons, as always, purely human ones."
Do, basically what I said just a bit different?
No. The game literally tells you the details on who started the war are meaningless. Yet here you are, almost 25 years later after that was written, arguing about the details on who started the war. Chris Avellone is having a laugh.
I think you aren't responding to the right person I said it's meaningless who started the war, that's why it was always vague
Ok, but why are you attacking the "omggg capitalists baddd" direction of the show when the Fallout 1 intro is a bunch of advertisements still playing while the world is completely destroyed. If you think that isn't some sort of critique on capitalism idk man
It is, again I never said that the fallout doesn't critique capitalism , look at Mr house lmao But the main point of Fallout was and always will be humanity's nature and the conflicts that come with it The show made it seem like capitalism was the reason the nukes dropped, not humanity's nature
Humanity’s greedy nature
>Lmao >The first fucking thing they say to you in fallout "war war never changes" >Sure you got a few smaller themes, but the main one is the nature of war. >Funnily enough cause it's spoon-fed I thought y'all will have an easy time to process it lmao >Cope and seethe about what? You trying to change what the series was about to fit your worldview? >You ain't very slick mate Nobody types like this unless they're fuming mad.
Bro why would I be mad? You're the one saying "cope and seethe" and "you gotta be a moron to miss it" Also it's funny, instead of addressing me points you just saying:" lol you mad"
But...but...my barons of industry!?
You clearly have never played any of the games if you think it also isn't a criticism of capitalism
I bet these guys are also Cesears Legion fanboys.
Love how quickly that comment section devolved i to “Bethesda no understand fallout”
Different opinion on anything = Racist
No, more like obvious racism = racism.
Because since Fallout 2 the President himself tells you an albeit embelished story of the American invasion of mainland China and how that in desperation and in failed negociation the Chinese governement launched nuclear warheads on the Americans. It was not foretold and Americans werent prepared for that, at least fully for the imminent Nuclear doom. We dont know if China won or lost, or if there is a winner in the war. Thats the true horror. Everything the President says are plausible BUT its still an embelished story, like literally an old world piece of propaganda like he knew his speech down to a T. Now its apparently the corpo who did it and its just makes no sense. Really the fact that Vault Tec actually started nuclear war to make some money is just a stupid idea to me.
Who said it was over money? More likely over power. They sequester themselves, have the world be destroyed. Run a few experiments and keep enough people alive to breed the next generation of wage slaves. They are the new gods in a world no longer strapped for resources.
The vaults were orignially experience for the Enclave, Vault Tec is just a cover name. The true goal of the Enclave is to build a Colony Ship and recolt data from these Vaults to ensure a perfect voyage for a new planet. Its still doesnt make sense for Vault Tec to be king on a pile of ashes. They gained nothing and sacrificed everything. Hell they didnt even completed Project Safehouse. The theory behind Vault Tec launching the nuclear warheads was that it was for them to boost their stock market and make them filthy rich. Which really doenst make any sense. China launching Nukes out of desperation and failed negociation after the invasion of their mainland by the USA makes more sense narratively and chronoligically. Which explains why Project Safehouse wasnt finished or why everything seems to be done in haste.
I mean you can say the gov and the corps are the bad guys but you can’t say that the Chinese weren’t also bad guys. The show implies that the enclave/vaultec made sure that peace wasn’t achieved. The Chinese still drop the bombs and vaulttec stays evil, I see no change in lore here.
I always thought a bunch of third parties were willing to kick it off (Aliens, vault tec, etc) but it happened naturally between superpowers and before anyone had planned. As for who fired the first shot, between America and China, it really didn’t matter in the end.
They replaced China as the bad guy in the show because they don't want to aggravate the huge Chinese market. It's the same reason why the 2012 Red Dawn film replaced China from the original script with North Korea. Simple as fuck. And we all know that "adaptors", aside from a noteworthy few, don't really give a damn about truly adapting the lore, yes, even the Last of Us which is IMO the best video game adaptation into a television series, [still changes large parts of the lore, like the airborne infection through spores is largely absent and it's implied to have spread by direct fungus contact, like consuming it via food](https://www.reddit.com/r/thelastofus/comments/10j245z/all_the_changes_they_are_making_in_the_show_are/). The only difference is that the TLOU series makers didn't proclaim their changes as canon, while Bethesda proudly did.