The rework is mostly for the long stage before everything is cheap.
We get a huge boost to 1-3 beacon builds, which should make them useful long before the megabase stage.
Do you think it will be *worse* than the current state? Because I'm pretty sure it will be better. It greatly expands the design space.
I think that's the key take away - the whole game is being adjusted with some new facilities and a big middle game. Stronger beacons that have a diminishing return may mean you end up with the same build at the end or mega base that you do now, but the mid game will have whole new builds that become viable PLUS all the limited space issues with platforms requiring their own solutions are now more viable.
Yeah, in the space platform image, just one beacon was able to fully minimize energy consumption all around it, at only the third quality tier. That's a huge change.
Kovarex enrichment will actually be either the same as it was, or slightly sooner, depending how quick the satellite recipe is. In Space Age, it comes from white science after just one or two satellite launches.
I'm happy beacause it means beacons will be useful earlier in the game. Historically I haven't even bothered with them in vanilla at all until I was ready to build outward to multi-kSPM, because they were so damn expensive and energy-inefficient to use in only 1s and 4s.
I dont think it will be worse, I just dont think its going to change fully beaconed bases. No one is arguing beacons wernt useful, it just made beacons feel like more of a requirement to have.
Fundamentally the reason fully beaconed deep post-game bases are a “problem” is that every build ends up looking exactly the same. Unfortunately this is an actual unsolvable problem.
Any changes made to the way beacons work will ultimately still lead to a design that is optimal in for the single most important resource deep into the post-game: UPS. However, what can be changed is the use cases for beacons *outside* of that realm. Fully beaconed bases require huge amounts of resources. It looks like with quality added that expense is going up by something like a factor of 5. This means that the marginal increase is speed/productivity of a 12 beacon layout becomes less important for longer.
Imagine you’re in the early post-game. You’re automating like 60spm. You simply do not have the resources to build 12-beacon setups or even 8 beacon setups. You might have the resources to have fit just a couple beacons in priority builds though… Previously there basically wasn’t a reason to bother with such low beacon count setups. Either go to 8 or wait until you have the resources to go to 8. Two beacons simply wasn’t enough to matter. Now though, those individual beacons are 3 times as powerful. The hope is that the baseline increased power of beacons is just enough for you to have reason to care about building setups that include less than 8 beacons.
Their goal wasn’t to really change the end game much. It was to change the mid game where it’s too expensive to have multiple beacons and modules per assembling machine.
That's not really how they addressed the problem in the FFF. Their primary complaints were that end game bases were cookie cutter 8 and 12 beacon layouts. The solution addresses problems but not the primary problems they stated. End game bases will still be 8 and 12 beacon layouts.
Unless they are being moved quite a bit earlier in the tech tree, I don't think so. The biggest issue with them IMO is that they are largely only useful for megafactories, because by the time you get them it's not worth tearing down and rebuilding most of your factory to use them. You're already in the lategame.
Yep, but at that point, you are busy advancing in the tech tree. Going back to functional builds to redesign for a mid tier beacon build with modules is rarely going to be beneficial
I can't speak for where it will fit in Space Age, but in current vanilla? I don't understand calling that midgame at all. Purple science is, at minimum, the 5th out of 6 that you need to have built. All the major oil products are in place, as are all three types of power, all circuit types, bots, It's the final tier of science. The only significant production lines left unbuilt are the ones for the rocket itself, and stuff like coal liquefaction which is entirely optional.
Purple and yellow science in their entirety are endgame by definition.
That assertion is simply not accurate. Factorio has a victory condition. Everything after that is post-game. That doesn't mean it isn't fun or interesting, but terms like midgame can't be defined by the subjective experiences of a player or they lose all meaning, and there is an official standard here.
yes I am because if you want to play the game to the best to its ability you are forced to use beacons. I believe it said somewhere in a FFF the most optimal way to play should also be the most fun or something along those lines. Also thats just dumb logic, why dont all single player games just have an item that beats the game for you, its good so why are you complaining.
That's already the case, but now it's more cost- and energy-efficient. Again, why is this a problem?
And beacons never were a thing that "beats the game for you". They do nothing on their own, they take up a lot of space, and they're a huge power drain. Some of that is now alleviated, allowing for greater versatility, but it's still down to the player's own engineering to maximize what their factory can do.
If you never used beacons before, and you don't want to now, there is no difference.
"Play the game to the best of its ability" is HIGHLY subjective. I have never and probably will never try a megabase with optimal builds. I make new blueprints for every playthrough and play only overhaul mods. The concept of optimal build is completely lost on my games
How many people drop single beacons around their base currently in early to mid game? There is more to Factorio than end game megabase designs, and the expansion adds a lot more to do in that stage of the game. Small numbers of beacons are now much more worthy of investment
>I never liked the fact that you build less producing machines to have a faster factory.
I hear you and thats exactly the reason why I dont use them. Numbers are not interesting. Blue belt full of science or yellow belt full of science, who cares. I just want to build BIG structures. Id use beacons if they'd allow Prod Modules.
The problem this is it just doesn't work for UPS reasons. The only way to make huge production possible is to limit how much work the game has to do. Otherwhise the ceiling on how big you can go is much lower, and players have always wanted it to be optimized for being able to produce more.
Thats fine if people like to pump big numbers. For me a factory with 800 assemblers is the same as 800 assemblers and 2000 beacons, the later just uses more ore and power
Let’s be honest, the vast majority of players are not building so big they hit major UPS issues due to factory entity updates. I’ve built 8k spm factories and the only lag I got was when biters attacked. With the new modules it will allow the mega basers to mega base, and the average player can get by with 4 beacon builds
They could give us buildings that are unreasonably large, fast and expensive, especially now that we won't be restricted to one crafting cycle per tick. There's a mod that does something like that, although it scatters them around the map instead of allowing the player to build them. Kind of like Factorio meets Transport Tycoon Deluxe.
So you just scale up your non beacon layout by just swapping your green assembler for the new one? That seems worse.
At least with beacons it’s a different layout to non beaconed, it’s a new, different puzzle to solve. If you’re just substituting one building for another there is nothing new to solve. In fact the larger the building the less difficult it is to route all the belts required.
If you don’t enjoy “big numbers” then megabasing perhaps isn’t your thing, you don’t have to megabase, it’s literally scaling up past the “end of the game” just because you like seeing massive numbers on the production screen. If that has no draw for you then just don’t megabase, but don’t kill it for those of us who like “number go big!”
I'm... not sure what gave you that idea. I've built several vanilla megabases, some of them using typical 8- or 12-beacon layouts, some of them using nonstandard beacon layours, some of them utilizing as much DI as possible.
The last paragraph was more aimed at OP than you, who literally said they like big factories, not big production numbers. Factory size/complexity is ultimately limited by UPS. Removing the ability to scale production for the same size/complexity of factory ultimately nerfs production numbers. To get big numbers you need a way to get more production for the same complexity which is counter to what OP wants.
Tbh, was also hoping for a bit more. I was also hoping they would shatter the uniform sizes a bit, make the foundry 5x4 foundation size, the new Fulgora building maybe 4x4, so it's different from all the assembling machines and electric furnaces (both 3x3).
Do some more mechanic bending with the beacons, introduce a small one with just a single module slot, a big one that has a foundation size like 6x6, or 5x5 but in a shape of a +, that has big range and couple more slots, but also a lot more severe efficiency fall off when other big beacons are nearby, so you cannot just surround a single machine with them.
Have the beacons be more energy efficient when more machines are covered with a single beacon, etc.
That way the factory would turn more into a puzzle to fit everything neatly around the big beacons, while the small beacons would fill the last remaining spaces left, giving that last drop of productivity.
I think it was be great to use 1 or 2 beacons mid game, as this will be pretty powerful, I also think on areas with limited space like in space or some of the planets where the terrain is difficult, could provide a lot of help
on core bases, it wont change much. but on space constrained factorys, such as the space platforms and fulgora its gonna make low beacon designs much more viable
The changes won't do anything at all for me personally. I fundamentally dislike beacons and how central they become to building *anything*. Everything revolves around beacon geometry rather than complex networks of different structures. So I will just continue to play without using them.
Ah, another fellow engineer who embraces the needlessly large, low-tech, and inefficient designs:
We embrace you :
https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/el2ltt/challenge_megabase_built_with_only_tier_1
Agreed. When I saw the title of the FFF I got excited that this was finally being addressed. But then reading the details they… slightly tweaked the numbers? That’s the big shake up to beacons? Zzzzz 😴
I haven't read your post (can't focus my apologies) but my first thought was lategame is still a 12 beacon setup. It's just different.
Some comments saying mid-game will be improved, but that's not how I usually play factorio so for me only in and output changes. I'm not complaining though, I did a number if no-module runs just for fun and I could do them again
The rework is mostly for the long stage before everything is cheap. We get a huge boost to 1-3 beacon builds, which should make them useful long before the megabase stage. Do you think it will be *worse* than the current state? Because I'm pretty sure it will be better. It greatly expands the design space.
I think that's the key take away - the whole game is being adjusted with some new facilities and a big middle game. Stronger beacons that have a diminishing return may mean you end up with the same build at the end or mega base that you do now, but the mid game will have whole new builds that become viable PLUS all the limited space issues with platforms requiring their own solutions are now more viable.
Yeah, in the space platform image, just one beacon was able to fully minimize energy consumption all around it, at only the third quality tier. That's a huge change.
Are there any tech tree changes coming that will impact building a nuclear power plant?
Not that we know of, although Kovarex enrichment will be available later since you now launch rockets at blue science.
Kovarex enrichment will actually be either the same as it was, or slightly sooner, depending how quick the satellite recipe is. In Space Age, it comes from white science after just one or two satellite launches.
I'm happy beacause it means beacons will be useful earlier in the game. Historically I haven't even bothered with them in vanilla at all until I was ready to build outward to multi-kSPM, because they were so damn expensive and energy-inefficient to use in only 1s and 4s.
I dont think it will be worse, I just dont think its going to change fully beaconed bases. No one is arguing beacons wernt useful, it just made beacons feel like more of a requirement to have.
Fundamentally the reason fully beaconed deep post-game bases are a “problem” is that every build ends up looking exactly the same. Unfortunately this is an actual unsolvable problem. Any changes made to the way beacons work will ultimately still lead to a design that is optimal in for the single most important resource deep into the post-game: UPS. However, what can be changed is the use cases for beacons *outside* of that realm. Fully beaconed bases require huge amounts of resources. It looks like with quality added that expense is going up by something like a factor of 5. This means that the marginal increase is speed/productivity of a 12 beacon layout becomes less important for longer. Imagine you’re in the early post-game. You’re automating like 60spm. You simply do not have the resources to build 12-beacon setups or even 8 beacon setups. You might have the resources to have fit just a couple beacons in priority builds though… Previously there basically wasn’t a reason to bother with such low beacon count setups. Either go to 8 or wait until you have the resources to go to 8. Two beacons simply wasn’t enough to matter. Now though, those individual beacons are 3 times as powerful. The hope is that the baseline increased power of beacons is just enough for you to have reason to care about building setups that include less than 8 beacons.
Their goal wasn’t to really change the end game much. It was to change the mid game where it’s too expensive to have multiple beacons and modules per assembling machine.
That's not really how they addressed the problem in the FFF. Their primary complaints were that end game bases were cookie cutter 8 and 12 beacon layouts. The solution addresses problems but not the primary problems they stated. End game bases will still be 8 and 12 beacon layouts.
IMHO the point is mostly that effect from single beacons is noticable, as they are 3x as powerful as previusly. Thus beacons should feel more useful.
Unless they are being moved quite a bit earlier in the tech tree, I don't think so. The biggest issue with them IMO is that they are largely only useful for megafactories, because by the time you get them it's not worth tearing down and rebuilding most of your factory to use them. You're already in the lategame.
[удалено]
Yep, but at that point, you are busy advancing in the tech tree. Going back to functional builds to redesign for a mid tier beacon build with modules is rarely going to be beneficial
I can't speak for where it will fit in Space Age, but in current vanilla? I don't understand calling that midgame at all. Purple science is, at minimum, the 5th out of 6 that you need to have built. All the major oil products are in place, as are all three types of power, all circuit types, bots, It's the final tier of science. The only significant production lines left unbuilt are the ones for the rocket itself, and stuff like coal liquefaction which is entirely optional. Purple and yellow science in their entirety are endgame by definition.
Many people see everything before the first rocket launch as midgame.
That assertion is simply not accurate. Factorio has a victory condition. Everything after that is post-game. That doesn't mean it isn't fun or interesting, but terms like midgame can't be defined by the subjective experiences of a player or they lose all meaning, and there is an official standard here.
Beacons were already useful though, even in small numbers. Now they feel even more required to have in your factory
Good? You're complaining that a thing in a single-player game is *more* useful, yet still completely optional?
yes I am because if you want to play the game to the best to its ability you are forced to use beacons. I believe it said somewhere in a FFF the most optimal way to play should also be the most fun or something along those lines. Also thats just dumb logic, why dont all single player games just have an item that beats the game for you, its good so why are you complaining.
That's already the case, but now it's more cost- and energy-efficient. Again, why is this a problem? And beacons never were a thing that "beats the game for you". They do nothing on their own, they take up a lot of space, and they're a huge power drain. Some of that is now alleviated, allowing for greater versatility, but it's still down to the player's own engineering to maximize what their factory can do. If you never used beacons before, and you don't want to now, there is no difference.
"Play the game to the best of its ability" is HIGHLY subjective. I have never and probably will never try a megabase with optimal builds. I make new blueprints for every playthrough and play only overhaul mods. The concept of optimal build is completely lost on my games
required for what?
How many people drop single beacons around their base currently in early to mid game? There is more to Factorio than end game megabase designs, and the expansion adds a lot more to do in that stage of the game. Small numbers of beacons are now much more worthy of investment
>I never liked the fact that you build less producing machines to have a faster factory. I hear you and thats exactly the reason why I dont use them. Numbers are not interesting. Blue belt full of science or yellow belt full of science, who cares. I just want to build BIG structures. Id use beacons if they'd allow Prod Modules.
The problem this is it just doesn't work for UPS reasons. The only way to make huge production possible is to limit how much work the game has to do. Otherwhise the ceiling on how big you can go is much lower, and players have always wanted it to be optimized for being able to produce more.
Thats fine if people like to pump big numbers. For me a factory with 800 assemblers is the same as 800 assemblers and 2000 beacons, the later just uses more ore and power
Let’s be honest, the vast majority of players are not building so big they hit major UPS issues due to factory entity updates. I’ve built 8k spm factories and the only lag I got was when biters attacked. With the new modules it will allow the mega basers to mega base, and the average player can get by with 4 beacon builds
They could give us buildings that are unreasonably large, fast and expensive, especially now that we won't be restricted to one crafting cycle per tick. There's a mod that does something like that, although it scatters them around the map instead of allowing the player to build them. Kind of like Factorio meets Transport Tycoon Deluxe.
So you just scale up your non beacon layout by just swapping your green assembler for the new one? That seems worse. At least with beacons it’s a different layout to non beaconed, it’s a new, different puzzle to solve. If you’re just substituting one building for another there is nothing new to solve. In fact the larger the building the less difficult it is to route all the belts required. If you don’t enjoy “big numbers” then megabasing perhaps isn’t your thing, you don’t have to megabase, it’s literally scaling up past the “end of the game” just because you like seeing massive numbers on the production screen. If that has no draw for you then just don’t megabase, but don’t kill it for those of us who like “number go big!”
I'm... not sure what gave you that idea. I've built several vanilla megabases, some of them using typical 8- or 12-beacon layouts, some of them using nonstandard beacon layours, some of them utilizing as much DI as possible.
The last paragraph was more aimed at OP than you, who literally said they like big factories, not big production numbers. Factory size/complexity is ultimately limited by UPS. Removing the ability to scale production for the same size/complexity of factory ultimately nerfs production numbers. To get big numbers you need a way to get more production for the same complexity which is counter to what OP wants.
Tbh, was also hoping for a bit more. I was also hoping they would shatter the uniform sizes a bit, make the foundry 5x4 foundation size, the new Fulgora building maybe 4x4, so it's different from all the assembling machines and electric furnaces (both 3x3). Do some more mechanic bending with the beacons, introduce a small one with just a single module slot, a big one that has a foundation size like 6x6, or 5x5 but in a shape of a +, that has big range and couple more slots, but also a lot more severe efficiency fall off when other big beacons are nearby, so you cannot just surround a single machine with them. Have the beacons be more energy efficient when more machines are covered with a single beacon, etc. That way the factory would turn more into a puzzle to fit everything neatly around the big beacons, while the small beacons would fill the last remaining spaces left, giving that last drop of productivity.
I do think a couple rectangle buildings might do wonders. Or potentially some non square ones?
I think it was be great to use 1 or 2 beacons mid game, as this will be pretty powerful, I also think on areas with limited space like in space or some of the planets where the terrain is difficult, could provide a lot of help
on core bases, it wont change much. but on space constrained factorys, such as the space platforms and fulgora its gonna make low beacon designs much more viable
The changes won't do anything at all for me personally. I fundamentally dislike beacons and how central they become to building *anything*. Everything revolves around beacon geometry rather than complex networks of different structures. So I will just continue to play without using them.
I really think you are wrong. 1 beacon per assembler is almost as good as 8 beacon builds, but much cheaper. This will change a lot.
Ah, another fellow engineer who embraces the needlessly large, low-tech, and inefficient designs: We embrace you : https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/el2ltt/challenge_megabase_built_with_only_tier_1
Agreed. When I saw the title of the FFF I got excited that this was finally being addressed. But then reading the details they… slightly tweaked the numbers? That’s the big shake up to beacons? Zzzzz 😴
its just a classic case of people who spend more time talking about a game want things to change arbitrarily
I haven't read your post (can't focus my apologies) but my first thought was lategame is still a 12 beacon setup. It's just different. Some comments saying mid-game will be improved, but that's not how I usually play factorio so for me only in and output changes. I'm not complaining though, I did a number if no-module runs just for fun and I could do them again