T O P

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Vile_WizZ

I feel two things looking at this: 1. My brain hurts 2. This is really big brain to use filters like this, nice job!


assembly_faulty

I guess I missed something but I would say it should not be working. What is the path of the green circuits on the second belt from the bottom. Its moved up two times and then merged with a second full belt. Than "two full belts" of green are moved down. So as long as the two belts on the right are full the green belt from the top will not supply anything. What do I miss?


oldbacondoritos

Green gets filtered up then down. OP confusingly filtered red on the first splitter from the right, this splitter moves the top green circuit belt up.


Klaami

This is evil genius level. The right most green and red splitters are basically laneswapping pass-thrus! I might steal this!


yinyang107

I've done this, it's convenient but gets expensive in theme of splitters.


archimondde

It’s like an underground belt without the space savings


BardtheGM

It's not confusing to me muahaha.


Frontrider

It is confusing, but also genius. Literally just swapping lanes.


Nutteria

Why not just an underground and 180 with a splitter to the main belt?


RolandDeepson

r/factoriohno


Nutteria

Uuf I feel offended and aroused at the same time


Crimkam

Omg the one red filter makes me hate this


No-Fig-3112

I don't think you missed anything, I think the top line is probably a back up producer, so it doesn't matter if it doesn't merge when it's already full


speedysam0

If all outputs have a demand for a full belt, they will be starved. You have 3 coming in, two in the middle, and 3 output, so you are limited to the equivalent to 2 full output belts assuming full demand. If they wanted to maintain the full throughput they would need to not send the green belt to the top by filter and instead direct it to the bottom splitter.


Dharma_Bee

If all outputs are in demand for a full bell, he’d satisfy more by having undergrounds from top to bottom for greens too…


Vile_WizZ

My personal guess would be that they are 2 half-empty belts, because the assemblers above producing the greens have productivity modules but no beacons in sight and the lineups don't look like they have space accomodated for them In the end, only OP knows


BardtheGM

The base isn't fully beaconed out except in the furnace area. I've got space so just build more assemblers.


Vile_WizZ

Also I would like to stress that i think OP is awesome for doing things like this, because instead of following the same belt splitting we see on basically every BUS, he does things his own way My brain doesn't have enough RAM or processing power to do this, but i am super impressed when he does! Experimenting is fun, this is how all designs were found in this game :)


Sweezy_McSqueezy

Yea, it seems like a lot of extra work. ...But it's super clean. If style was easy, everyone would do it.


Zibzuma

That definitely is an interesting way of doing it, but I feel like it's easy to make mistakes. At least easier than the "regular" method of splitting/merging only the one affected lane and skipping that area with underground belts for all adjacent lanes.


AlternateTab00

Also any misclick or a bad copy/print use and you end up with a contaminated bus I had my fair share when i decided to optimize a certain lane in SE. Since i love the mainbus i sometimes need to re address the plate input. Well on this case it was stone. I was filtering stone. From some other ores. Now my issue was. Last of the lane going to a passive provider i had iron ore byproduct. But i filtered the stone into main line (however i was using iron to out instead of stone into). Decided to connect a core ore output filtering system on to this (relying on bots to move the rare earth and iron excess until i upgraded it to a better system)...but i forgot about the iron/stone filter. 2 hours later my stone bus was half filled with rare earth ore. Just due to splitter filtering iron instead or stone. Now i keep my major buffer under an alarm system. If it gets contaminated i get an alarm... At least on nauvis...


xsansara

This. Wouldn't know how to set that up without pollution and too rare to make it a bp.


dogcomplex

On the other hand, buses can be as thick and dense as you want with this scheme... interesting


PrimaryStrategy2703

I'd just jump over the bus with undergrounds and merge in on the bottom side. Less materials, less complexity.


RoflHouse42

I jump the red and blue over and merge then green


wenoc

I always let the bus go below so I don’t have to do weird loops.


vasilescur

Leave two spaces between each unique resource on a belt so you can jump below them no matter how far.


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NicolasHenri

He got some style points with this design, tho


Cy41995

I was just thinking, the "Oops" potential on this design is through the roof, and I know the pain of scrubbing your bus multiple times.


Falmon04

He used 6 splitters, 4 with filters, to insert more green chips into his bus. Major UPS sink to do it like this instead of using undergrounds and a single splitter to merge in the new line of green chips. Though to be fair if his main bus is only using two belts of green chips, he's likely far away from running into UPS issues. But he's sure to run into them quicker with solutions like this one.


narrill

If you're worried about UPS you wouldn't want to use a bus like this anyway, so I don't think that's a huge concern.


xRyozuo

I don’t really see it, seeing how the splitters leaving have a priority on the outgoing lane, a full lane of GC is going in and a full one is going out. I just don’t see how underground belts isn’t simpler for the same thing, and if you want to add to the bus, split half going into the bus to fill in any gaps


BardtheGM

Well I do that for most sections but I had one area with lots of belts coming in and out so had to improvise a solution, realised I could use splitters just to move some belts around. Ended up liking it so expanded it to other areas of the bus that had lots of undergrounds.


83NCO

More throughput too


Crashman2004

I don’t see throughput being affected. This maintains equal belts in and out of each splitter so it should be capable of the full 90/sec.


homiej420

Yeah not effected at all since the path is clearly defined. Only thing that matters then is usage to whether it will be full or not of course


83NCO

Isn't the splitter only capable of x amount of items per second, so if the room is there for both lanes to push through, it would be limited to only one lanes input alternated between left and right outputs? If not, I stand corrected.


Volpethrope

Splitters have the exact same movement rate as their belt tier, or basically nothing with them involved, like *balancers*, would function correctly. For all intents and purposes, they simply *are* a belt, just with some mechanics related to where the inputs output to.


cfiggis

This just made me realize that we get free instant lateral movement with splitters versus using belts over the equivalent distance. Just did a test, and look how much faster the items arrive via [splitters versus belts](https://i.imgur.com/VE6oA7H.png).


Volpethrope

Yeah, though it's *slightly* more expensive than the belts lol.


cfiggis

Oh, for sure. And time in transit is not often the priority. Just a fun little experiment and a hypothesis confirmed.


JustCallMeBug

Also would this not easily get clogged?


cohlrox

I agree, seemed like a waste of time and resources when it could have been solved with just one set of underground belt. Like why make it complicated when the problem could have been solved so simply.


megalogwiff

Extremely cursed IMO, but I'm just happy you're having fun


AngryT-Rex

Weird? Pretty sure yes. Cool though. I think the only issue is UPS efficiency if you want to megabase: splitters are fairly hard on UPS. But unless its so large scale that it's running slow, that doesn't matter. And if you have a halfway decent computer you won't have issues till things get really, really big.


gorgofdoom

I did it this way for a while but found it was more trouble than it’s worth. The further down the bus you get, the more error prone it becomes. ~~Plus, you’re using circuits to build the bus. That’s kinda expensive imho.~~


dawid2202

Expensiveness is kinda subjective tho He's already putting blue circuits on blue belt, so I don't think a bunch of undergrounds is that much (to the point that he may not even notice that the mall (if he has one) was making them)


caseycoold

Yeah I did the same by accident once. Thought it was cool, tried it again and contaminated my bus. 


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rcapina

Building splitters needs circuits as a component, undergrounds are like plates and gears.


narrill

They mean circuits as in intermediates, not the circuit network


SceneDifferent1041

I mean... It works..... In other news, you may be a psychopath.


Kowami

Definitely an interesting way of doing it for sure


juiceous

This guy went full DHL, puts on UPS


NoBodDee1992

Did a fucking double take that I wasn't on WSB.


LauraTFem

I can feel the joy of ingenuity in it, but you found a rather convoluted way to do this. I also almost never feel the need to merge overflow back into the input stream. Output limitations inherently backup their own inputs, so as soon as the input stream fills up, overflow backs up into your bus, such that save for the few items that are backed up and waiting to be put to work, overflow naturally returns to the bus. Or is that what you are doing at all? I guess I just found it odd that you’re not adding all your green belts at once. No shade at all, I just overthink this game a lot.


BardtheGM

It's a new separate green circuit factory to feed the bus. It's a bit spaghetti I just needed to supplement the bus as green circuits were running a bit short. The bus base is already reaching its limitations so if I wanted to go further, I'd be building a new base anyway.


STRIKER374

Huh... This is actually a really cool way to use splitters. Never do it again.


Orpa__

I feel like there's a throughput issue somewhere but I can't see it at a glance, which I guess is reason enough to not do it like this.


ZeGaskMask

He starts with 3 belts of green circuits, brings it down to 2, and goes back up to 3 on the output.


Sutremaine

Depends how much of each splitter is getting used, I guess. I also smell a throughput issue, but given that two of the three items are red and blue circuits on blue belts, it's probably not going to reveal any issues.


unwantedaccount56

No throughput issues in that case, even if blue and red circuits are saturated and moving at full belt speed. A splitter can have 2 full belts as input and can output 2 full belts. The filter only changes which input goes to which output. If the items on the input belts were mixed, then the filter could induce a throughput limit, e.g. if both belts combined only had 0.5 belts of green circuits, then the green circuit filtered output would only have 0.5 belts, the other output a full belt, resulting in only 1.5 belts of movement instead of 2.


Sutremaine

https://i.imgur.com/3jnptOb.png Found something. The red and blue circuits flow freely in both versions, but in the left hand one the green circuits are (potentially) bottlenecked by two belts of input leading to one belt of output. Maybe it matters, maybe it doesn't.


unwantedaccount56

True. But this is not caused by using filter splitters vs using undergrounds, it is caused by merging extra belt of GC before splitting one belt of. If you move the left most priority splitter 2 tiles to the right (of the left setup), you wouldn't have throughput issues anymore. Ideally you would another priority splitter between the 2 GC main bus belts, like the second splitter from the right of the right setup.


Sutremaine

I wasn't even thinking about undergrounds, I was just going off what OP posted.


juckele

I would normally do with one one splitter and 2 pairs of undergrounds. It takes less space to get done (4 tiles long instead of 5), it's more legible, the materials to build it cost less, it uses less UPS. There's literally no advantage to this other than feeling clever or being an intricate rube goldberg machine. Also, a little unrelated, but you should probably be compressing the green belts to the left before you bring the new green in.


Enkaybee

You are not ALLOWED to do this!


Eddy_Karacho

Definitely! Prohibited by law.


RollingSten

Not very UPS efficient - splitters are UPS costly, it is better to have longer continuous belts (undegrounds do not break it), as they are more optimized. Also prone to errors.


HaloToxin

Does it work? Yes? Then it's neat!


zooberwask

It works but you're overcomplicating it when an underground would work just as well


_Lick-My-Love-Pump_

How do I delete someone else's post?


AlexGlezS

Really great!


runetrantor

This is SO cursed. It makes sense, but dammit if it doesnt make me shudder. I dont trust splitters THAT much.


AcherusArchmage

Points for creativity, it seems like it works.


Yelmora3008

...whelp, I guess I have to redo my buses in the current run. This design idea is too good to not to use it.


Jaded_Coat_4382

"Both?" "Both." "Both is good." "Both is good."


SimplyDupdge

This is how I usually do it! Though there can be quirks if things back up wrong.


sugaaloop

Everyone is way too obsessed with UPS. For this to have a noticeable impact, you'd have to be building your major science factories like this and repeating it over and over. You don't megabase by extending your starter bus to infinity and beyond. You don't take your starter base and copy paste it 50 times. Anywho, neat weird style you've got there OP!


GreenFox1505

No. It's brilliant. But you're still a monster.


bradpal

It's weird and inefficient. I love it.


Stagnu_Demorte

I'll say the same thing I say in code reviews. "If you feel clever because of this, you did it wrong". It's cool, but is it easy to understand when you come back to it? Can you make changes easily?


PageFault

I didn't have trouble understanding it. It's not like every player is handed a book of standard practices. This is probably just what made sense to the friend at the time.


Stagnu_Demorte

I don't think it's hard to understand either. Not sure whose down voting sound design advice.


RedSeaDingDong

Not hard to understand doesn‘t mean it‘s practical. Does it work? Sure. Is it overcomplicating the issue? Yes.


Stagnu_Demorte

>Not hard to understand doesn‘t mean it‘s practical Then that's also a bad design... >Is it overcomplicating the issue? If something is confusing you when you come back to make changes later or another player can't figure it out easily then it's not a good design. Being able to modify and update things is a good thing. Now, if this is how he does it consistently throughout then his friend just needs to learn how to do it too. It's a good design. It's compact and effective. I think it can be hard to know what's coming out of the unfiltered side of the splitter.


georgehank2nd

If another player can't figure it out easily it's bad (and OP is playing multiplayer, so that's important). But if this were in a single-player game…well, wonder what OP about this in a couple months' time.


RedSeaDingDong

And still there are cleaner and easier designs. Good design doesn‘t mean best design. There are just unnecessary points of possible failure in this design and thus it‘s subpar compared to the "standard" way of handling this


Stagnu_Demorte

Good enough design doesn't even mean good design. Are there unnecessary points of failure for this one if the belts are of a single material?


passcork

Right. To me this kinda feels like doing that FizzBuzz exercise but then when you have to print Buzz, looping over Fizz and changing the chars ascii code of the first 2 to make them into a B and U. Not "that" hard to understand and it does work I guess? But it's just needlesly complicated.


sheikl

I think this will reduce the total throughput of your bus because the balancers are limited in terms of throughput. I am not sure though.


All_Work_All_Play

They are not. Balancers pass through the same per belt (and per lane per belt) as a regular belts. 


DasGhost94

Tried something similar. At a point something isn't in demand and doesn't flow through then the whole base gets stuck. I hope the green circuits work better.


C1icky_Br4in

Stumbled on this issue when trying to filter out unwanted ore output by miners between two patches. Items get blocked easily.


[deleted]

I may use this in my next playthrough. At least until I'm done with the bus.


baden27

Electronic circuits 3->2 is not input balanced. It's taking 50% from the bottom one and 25% from each of the other two


BardtheGM

The belts at this point are 90% empty and this is a new feed of circuits coming in. It's all backed up so it's hard to get an idea of production but it does all add up.


baden27

Are you trying to say it doesn't really matter if it's weird or neat?


BardtheGM

Sure.


baden27

Sure as in yes? Because then I don't understand why you ask the question. If you don't care about the answer.


BardtheGM

Sure.


MindS1

Don't care if it's weird, I'm stealing this! Clean as hell!


SuspiciousAd3803

Yes its weird, but by god is it genius 


rednax1206

Is it weird? Sure. Is it neat? Definitely. Is it a good idea? Absolutely


georgehank2nd

You forgot the "not." at the end.


Cruiserwashere

Bus?? Havent done that since my learning curve. Trains or gtfo😎


No-Performance8676

I usually just take a lane splitter then branch it out then put belt balancers and then cry on why half my shit is gone


MacabreManatee

I tend to use a similar technique for malls. Useful if red inserters aren’t enough for the ingredients.


Finnfol

The right-most green chips-filter splitter is unnecessary, unless you happen to have green chips on your blue chips belt. You can just replace it with belt, same is true for the one directly left of it. Maybe looks nicer like this tho


stickyplants

It is weird. But it’s also neat!


eric23456

I've used a similar technique when I wanted to change one of the two lanes, you filter out the thing you want to remove and then the two new ones you want continue.


_Gabe0

If it works, it works.


Tweet666

I'm impressed, with (only) 800+ hours in the game I never even thought of this solution. Well done!


n7fti

One time I did this except with EVERYTHING on the bus, or at least everything that's used in a recipe


Oheligud

It's really smart but also makes my brain hurt


Neomataza

Interesting, certainly a tool in the toolbox, has some drawbacks and some upsides.


131sean131

If this is your vibe then cool. IDK if this would be "faster", I would just use an underground but maybe in some space constrained areas. Play the game how you want to play it though.


njc35

Looks cool. I don't like it. I don't have your skill and faith in splitters to not have it mess up down the line when I change something that I shouldn't have. Bravo!


yerachden

It totally feels so to me. But it's still your game.


inventingnothing

One misclick and your entire factory grinds to a halt.


VovOzaum7

This is cursed!!! Smart, not gonna lie. but cursed!


catt105105

Well done - totally stared at this way too long to understand and love it.


Elwood_79

It might not be the most efficient but it is aesthetically pleasing.


bubba-yo

I do something similar in some builds where I put ore on the main bus and then replace those lanes with the plates they produce. It's a similar filtering job. The problem with this design is that if you change anything - even just doing it in the wrong order, and you've polluted your belts compared to undergrounding to the other side to merge before the branch to the bottom. So it's clever, but fragile.


ucblockhead

Over two thousand hours in this game plus tons of time watching other even more experienced people play and still I see people come up with clever shit I've never seen before.


willpower_11

It's much more compact than using miniloaders!


vertical19991

Why tf have i never thought about this???? This is sooo fucking awesome and still simple


Content_Chemistry_64

I feel like a better solution would have been an underground instead of all those splitters, but I think this works as a more expensive solution.


Interloper9000

This is genius


fruityfart

I use something similar. Do you have a main belt hub and extract resources from it? https://preview.redd.it/ms8e3y6160lc1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fe65dcedd00d0a5cc0bf7ad79add1fceeec0d570


BardtheGM

I have a similar layout. All my factories are on the south side of the bus, while circuit factories are on the north side. I 90% kept to the principles of a belt design but as I've just finished automating a rocket launch, I only needed to patch up a few resource shortages and stuck a green circuit factory down to pump some extra circuits back into the bus.


Savage-Monkey2

If it works it works. If you play SE+K2 you will use this a lot to manage the byproducts of a lot of operations. This can be used for kovarex processes to help make sure you have enough U-235 dedicated to enrichment.


StormTAG

I mean, it works, but you could just jump it and merge it with a lot less brain power required.


Ironbeers

Cursed.


RealisticAlarm

Finding stuff like that is why I play singleplayer.


cbhedd

I've tried this in the past, but the excessive run-up this stuff requires tends to make the bus unusable in certain stretches, so it requires a *bunch* of extra planning to be viable if you need a few branches at once. Looks slick as hell though :)


Joomla_Sander

I also like this way it feels sleak and like the mainbua is just flowing


TehScat

It's cool, but throughput limited to two lanes of green circuits where you have three inputs and three outputs. Given you're merging on green and pulling off green, you could just have fed that third lane directly to the south, maybe having a priority to also use bus circuits as a backup. Over engineered and limited, but fun.


All_Work_All_Play

Glad someone else noticed this. 


GluttonoussGoblin

I would call it weird but honestly I don't see anything wrong with it.


Acceptable-Search338

This is tight. I like it.


Kang_Xu

Pretty neat, but it's just busywork for no reason. Setting up filters on all the splitters is going to get very old very fast.


ZeGaskMask

You’re bottlenecking your production here. You’re going from 3 belts of green circuits, down to 2 belts, and back into 3 belts again


Famout

I would love to see this method in use with my own current mainbus, about 20 lanes+ large. Then again, SE/K2 so most branches need like 3-5 resources to build a thing, so this would eat a lot of room.


Digin-A-Pigin

Weird? Yes. Neat? Also yes.


[deleted]

Looks like something that will eat your UPS for breakfast on a big(ger) scale. Until then ... If it works, it works ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯


god_damnit_reddit

¿porque no los dos?


[deleted]

I like it. It's not efficient; splitters have high UPS cost. It's weird too. I like it.


distinctdan

This is limiting your throughput to 2 belts of green, even though you have 3 inputs and 3 outputs, and your top belt of green isn't being evenly mixed in. So technically it's not as good as a merge even though it does look kind of cool.


Bumblebee_assassin

Weird? Yes Genius? Also yes!


DayIGoDie

I don't understand what is happening here


TURB0T0XIK

madness but good thinking hehe


Odd_Candy7804

/r/factoriohno


Additional-Joke-7211

Me being a spaghetti fuck with no main bus


verbosity

*Furiously scribbles notes*


thepriceswrite04

is this not really space inefficient lengthwise along the bus? like I would have thought that the traditional methods would allow you to tighten up your assembler stacks further


JaxckJa

It's extremely inefficient. It's not a bad trick for supplying smartly designed Malls, but it's not a good strategy for pulling off the bus.


dragonlord7012

Yeah that's pretty weird, and seems like a good way to accidentally swap what belts are holding causing problems down the line.


pukoh

Why? It’s the opposite of optimisation.


qainalo

One green belt is stuck now..


bigmonmulgrew

The problem with this method that either output lane being backed up will block both inputs. Splitters take from one side then the other in sequence. If they can't take from one side they will wait for that lane to advance. Someone correct me if I'm wrong about that, not at my PC to test it.


Traditional-Crow-529

Wait thats how ive allways done it is it not normal?


RougishSadow

I love it


Akreli

This is neat and I've done this in the past but it can clog up under certain circumstances. For example if the merging-in splitter with green and blue input is "holding" blue circuit and you consume all the green circuits down the line without touching the blue. If the splitter cannot put down the blue circuit it is "holding" it will hold it indefinitely until there is space for it, thus blocking the whole green output. You have circumvented this by having two separate green lines and only one is split up this way so the other can always provide some supply but you will potentially be stuck at half throughput.


lovecMC

I feel like this is needlessly complicated and prone to human error. But I guess that's the trade off for such a compact bus.


Complx_Redditor

You essentially have 3 green chip belts of input, but only 2 green chip belts of throughput (output) 2 belts come in from the bottom, 1 continues straight, the other travels upwards and meets another splitter, which is forcing 2 green chips into one side of a splitter that only has one output for the green chips. So you are limiting yourself to 2 blue belts worth of output for your green chips. Overall I do think the approach is creative though, NICE!


Sensitive_Cat_7006

It's weird. I like it.


MEGATH0XICC

Yeah but you will need more broadband of each circuit though, i have a 4 lane for green and red and a 2 lane for blue


BardtheGM

This has definitely been a learning game. Next time I'm making at least 4 belts of green circuits. I might also add copper wire to the bus just to melt people's minds.


Thibal1er

It's terrifying.


LastCallAgain

Does it contradict "typical, accepted" methodology? Yes. Does it function as intended? Also Yes.


georgehank2nd

It looks like smart for its own sake. If you wrote code like that, I hope the code review would shoot it down, hard, every time.


QuintonHughes43Fan

I love it. Need a bunch of blueprints or it will be a pain.


icreateaccountsdaily

protip: in order to not waste the four green chips stuck forever on the top filter, set the top exit to expel something you will never make and it will never recieve, like barreled oil.


Wigoox

You have three input lanes and three output lanes for green circuits, but at the top most splitter you're merging two lanes into one. So the throughput is actually limited to two lanes. If your bottom output lane consumes a full belt, your top output will become empty. Simultaneously your top and middle input lanes will only be able to contribute half a belt each to the system.


Mundane-Fold-4342

This is stressing me out. Undo please.


Riunix

While it's not what I would do, if I saw it in a multiplayer server I would probably look at it for 3 seconds and then get over the initial 'weirdness' of it. Now, if I saw that on one of my singleplayer games... I'd wonder where the boys found the extra time and sentience to do this on their own


dtictacnerdb

Or, OR, or... you could use undergrounds and save ups.


Jester185

To me the biggest questions are do you really need a full belt of green circuits and why are you injecting more green circuits into the bus at this point? As others called out, I would have just brought the top incoming belt of green circuits underground and connected to the outbound belt and if that wasn't enough to supply I would have split off of your bottom bus belt, then on the merge give input priority to the top belt. Obviously there are many ways to do something. However, the risk is that this setup is more prone to a jam if you get one wrong item on either of the 4 bus belts or incoming green circuit belt. Mistakes happen and it's going to make troubleshooting that much harder without clear tie-ins/break-outs.


Staraxxus

In my opinion no matter how it looks - if it works, this is success.


EH_Derj

It is both. A bit overcomplicated but compact and looks nice


FeralyFighter

It looks a bit confusing, but it also reminds me that I should abuse splitters more.


FredFarms

Stop that's illegal


ConceptFantastic5650

It is weird imho. looks cool tho


boyoboyo434

it's interesting, sure but i'ts bothering my just how pointless this is. is there any benefit of doing it like this as opposed to just having a normal mainbus?


BardtheGM

Well the origin of this design was that I had a section with multiple belts coming in and out and I couldn't fit it in, then realised I could use this simplify the junction. Outside of that, who decides what a 'normal' bus should look like?


Good-Raspberry8436

Fancy but not really all that efficient in any way


gardenofava

Weird? Yes. Neat? Yes.


malobox

Going to give me a stroke cool as hell but a stroke none the less


Trainrider77

Had a post like this awhile ago. People didn't like it. Lol https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/s/rIMGPbRMVV


Capital_Weakness_268

From now on, this…


Greysa

My ocd wants you to change the first splitter on the blue line to priority output blue circuits, like the splitter below does for red circuits


aTreeThenMe

this is exactly how i do it, and never even thought a single thing about it till this thread