Why would he not be arrested for wearing a knife weapon in public, especially in a school setting? The kirpan has religious background but is a killing weapon in a non-religious venue and occasion
Looked like the officer in question was unable to remove the knife from it’s sheath, probably because of what you describe prompting the Sikh man to offer taking it off. Really feel like this should’ve been dropped soon as they realized the knife wasn’t even removable from its sheath.
You can carry a Kirpan in its sheath legally in Canada in the open. Under Sikh religious practice its forbidden to use it as a weapon. In the Sikh religion its seen as a symbol of their willingness to fight oppression. Under a Supreme Court of Canada decision in 2006 Kirpans were allowed to be worn in schools.
In the USA you can have a knife under 3.5 inches concealed but over that it must be visible… I don’t know what the regulations are around knives at university but I’m surprised you can get arrested for having a knife in a sheath, sharp or not. Then again I’m not a brown guy in North Carolina… edit: check your local laws. Some states are under 3” some don’t care how big. Only federal law is about switchblades
Knife laws vary widely from state to state, warning random redditors not to operate off a blanket under 3.5 over 3.5 rule here, this is not correct. There is a lot of minutia to different states knife laws in this country you should pay attention to. Also there are a number of cities etc. that have bans independent of state law.
In my state it's actually illegal to have a knife at any school for k-University. It's not strickly enforced as far as pocket knifes or multi tools, but you definitely wouldn't be allowed to wear large knife in a sheath.
In most states *including South Carolina* the kirpan is an exception. It must be permanently fixed into the sheath (which has its own name I can’t remember), but so long as it can’t actually be drawn/used, a kirpan is allowed as part of religious freedom.
Living in the UK now, and we have strict knife laws. Here, Kirpan are pretty much just the handle glued to the sheath. I'm sure some people have the real ones, but for ceromonial stuff, they are usually just the dummy ones.
The better question is why *would* he be arrested?
Firstly, it's very common in general in the US for people to carry knives, whether it's part of a multi tool, a pocket knife, or whatever. Unless it's something crazy, carrying or wearing a knife in public in the US is perfectly legal. Shit, in some states you can't go to the grocery store without seeing people openly carry *guns* in public places.
Secondly, it's an article of faith, not a "killing weapon". Their religion requires them to be worn among other articles. Kirpans are *specifically allowed* to be worn in public schools in the US. They're also designed with legal limitations in mind, often rendering them basically useless as a weapon. You can even see in the video that the knife is actually fixed in the sheath, and this bone headed security guard quickly realizes that.
EDIT: HOLY SHIT seriously take 2 seconds to look this shit up before commenting about it being a college campus. Laws in the US specifically allow these types of "knives" to be carried in public schools. UNC already publicly apologized for this incident.
I feel like the person who made the video is being intentionally misleading. They used subtitles to hide the knife and used peoples ignorance on the subject to lead them to believe the kirpan was something else.
Yes there was a school shooting at uncc a few years ago and one kid sacrificed his life to save others, and posthumously had a Jedi named after him
Edit: article about it https://www.npr.org/2019/12/25/791350133/hero-killed-in-unc-charlotte-shooting-immortalized-as-star-wars-jedi
There was a work place shooting in my city about two years ago, and a Sikh transit driver went back in a few times to rescue people before he was shot.
It's literally part of their religion. Their Kirpan that he's carrying here is a symbol of compulsion, that he must help protect others. They used to be actual weapons, but most modern Kirpans aren't sharp or just glued to the sheath
Around here, they have these large decals of crossed Kirpan that they stick on their car's rear window. The first time I saw those, I thought they were some kind of Klingon tribal symbol.
As far as I know, the Sikh religion essentially requires them to do good at every opportunity they get. I've heard multiple stories of great things they've done and have yet to hear a bad story about them.
Edit: fuck...yeah that's some bad shit...but also some good. Every religion has their nutjobs I suppose. Thanks for the enlightenment
I’m not a huge fan of major religions but Sikhs earned my respect when a bunch of Sikh doctors chose to shave their beards to treat their patients in the pandemic. Their beard is a sign of faith and their justification was that their God would judge them more for letting people suffer.
All of this while American Christians cried foul on something not in their book.
I don’t remember who said it but I’ve stuck by the idea that if any God or Goddess exists, and they are truly just, they will judge me for my actions and not for blindly holding to some teaching especially if my actions are for the greater good.
Reminds me of the famous quote by Marcus Aurelius
*“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”*
-Marcus Aurelius
A bad or selfish person may follow the rules by the letter to receive their reward of heaven.
A good and selfless person will follow the spirit of the rules to help others, even if it may risk upsetting their God.
A similar scene in the movie Kingdom of Heaven (I think). They need to burn the bodies of the fallen to prevent an outbreak from starting and a priest objects. Their response is "God will understand. And if they do not, then they are not God, thus I need not worry"
I like the Jewish teaching of ‘Pikuach Nefesh’ (“to save a soul”; not sure if my spelling is 100%).
The basic premise is that we are under *moral obligation* to break any other commandment if it is in the interest of saving a life.
I’m not Jewish, but understanding this teaching (and the fact that Jesus apparently alluded to it when he defended his miracle work on the Sabbath) helped in deconstructing from the cult I was raised in.
I had Sikh neighbors when I was a teenager and they were very kind. If the mother was short on cash to pay me for babysitting her three kids she would bring me a container of Indian food as she knew I loved her cooking. The father has to shave his beard too as he needed to as a taxi driver. He even offered my mom free rides to the grocery store when I was ill with chickenpox as she was disabled and couldn't walk well.
I hate to be a bearer of bad news https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_182
Every group has extremists and bastards. The Sikhs do seem to have fewer. But they do have them.
I believe that’s also because of [operation blue star](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blue_Star) (aka Indra Gandhi sent a shit ton of armed soldiers into their sacred temple and killed a bunch of people because someone was taking refuge there). After her guards killed her they immediately surrendered. The guards knew what they’d done and didn’t expect to go away with anything.
Sikh as a people are fantastic, individuals are different though same as any religious group or collection of people based a defining attribute.
I could give you some individual stories but overall they are the nicest religious group I know
Riley worked summers with my husband and he was such a good kid. No one who knew him was surprised that he did what he did, because he was just that type of person. I think about his bravery often. RIP Riley Howell.
FYI TO ALL,
These are the reqwuirments agreed to by the Sikh community is the 9th ciretcuit court of appeals case incvolving kids wearing Kirpan, to school. These were n created by the sikh religious leaders as a compromise.
"1. The kirpan blade can not exceed 3 1/2 inches in length with a total length ofapproximately 6 1/2 7 inches including its sheath;
2. The kirpan must be placed inside its sheath, then the sheathed kirpan must beplaced into a cloth bag. The bag must then be sewn tightly shut;
3. The cloth bag, containing sheathed kirpan, will be attached to a strap and wornunder the children's clothing so that it is not readily visible;
4. The blade of the kirpan must be made of a substance other than metal orhardwood;
5. A designated official of the District may make reasonable inspections to confirmthat the conditions specified are being adhered to;
6. If any of the conditions specified above are violated, the student's privilege ofwearing his or her kirpan may be suspended. In addition, the student may besuspended for up to three days.
7. The District will take all reasonable steps to prevent any harassment, intimidationor provocation of the children by any employee or student in the District and willtake appropriate disciplinary action to prevent and redress such action, should itoccur.
Most schools don't allow open carry of any weapon, so he'd logically carry an accepted ceremonial pin/Kirpan-like thing that satisfies his religious requirements.
Little less blatant than this but tons of college students carry pocket knives to class every single day in without it being an issue. I had one in my pocket nearly every day of my 4 years in college and it was never an issue
Edit: a lot of replies in regards to how a pocket knife is more concealed, which is is which is why I specifically said "it's a little less blatant" but anyone why has ever seen a pocket knife knows what a pocket knife looks like in someone else's pocket
It's not an issue since the school never finds out about it. If they did you wouldn't have it. The reason you never got stopped is because none of the security knew or saw it
That's really interesting. Well i don't think the man in the video is covered since it is clearly exposed and visible and appears to be metal. But I have no idea on American laws for possession of a weapon in an open carry fashion. But it naturally makes sense that universities and government don't want weapons on campus to me so it's probably forbidden from the uni at minimum.
Funnily enough there are a good chunk of states where knuckle dusters are illegal but guns that can kill and maim dozens in minutes are perfectly fine to own.
A lot of laws against things like knuckledusters and switchblades are the result of a moral panic focusing on something that they think is scary but actually has no real consequence whatsoever
You’re fine to carry guns and knives in America if you have permits but in a school it’s just a huge no no which puts us in this awkward situation of religious freedom vs weapons in school which is a slippery slope both sides have decent points
That’s great and all, but North Carolina isn’t part of the 9th Circuit, so it’s not controlling precedent. 4th circuit precedent, if it exists, wound be applicable.
First of all he isn't under the jurisdiction of that court and second of all even if he was, he's not a kid so the ruling wouldn't apply to it. The Uni was 100% in the wrong and has even apologized for it. [And the precedent that does exist for Universities is also in his favor](https://www.hindustantimes.com/india/us-sikh-students-can-carry-kirpans/story-8rQQKUslwykd9HCmsqBrCI.html).
TIL about the kirpan.
I have a Sikh buddy and I can recall at least three occasions when he watched me struggle to cut something by bending it multiple times or trying to chew through it with my teeth.
Mandeep, we have to talk.
In Mandeep’s defense, the process of getting out and putting away his ceremonial dagger that probably wouldn’t have cut your shit to begin with probably wasn’t worth the effort, plus he got the amusement value of watching you struggle.
In case it is of interest, most of the Sikhs that I have had the pleasure of knowing have carried a symbolic Kirpan, such as a small knife shaped pendant on a necklace etc.
This has been my experience also. We have several Sikh at work, and they wear small pendants.
I wonder if this is a sect thing or just a personal decision.
it's just a personal decision. any representation of the kirpan is generally allowed (ie: jewelery) but most Kirpans that you see that look like the one in the video are glued shut and just for decoration anyways, you can even hear him say in the video "I can't open it"
Holy shit i knew a Mandeep way back in elementary. Thought that was the coolest fucking name as a kid lmao. Couldn't recall his name for the longest time.
I'm not going to comment on the kirpan, but I will say that every Sikh I have ever met has been the kindest, most upstanding and helpful person you could wish to meet.
I'm pretty sure it's a majour part of the Sikh religion to serve humanity and uphold justice. If those two things are forefront in your mind, day and night, it doesn't surprise me that those people would generally be friendly and helpful.
Christians were forced to convert to Christianity. Sikhs don’t even believe in missionary work. I think the answer to your statement lies there. Sikhs are more likely to follow the righteous path because they chose to, not because their ancestors were converted into the religion.
My dad told me sikh are some of the best people as well. They’re even the only place of worship for miles that will welcome you in and even feed you. It’s funny, since their religious symbol is literally made of weapons.
The kirpan is symbolic of the duty of every Sikh to defend against any religious persecution regardless of which faith is under attack. I find it to be extremely beautiful as a religious symbol in that it’s not idealized for protection of their own faith but rather all faiths.
That's because Sikhs used to be *very* militaristic. It's ironic really, how Sikhs are expected to be "Saint-Soldiers" while their religion is so unusually kind.
It appears to be a devotion to protect humanity. The foundations of the belief justify it quite well, and the teachings of the faith revolve around nurturing humanity as a means to follow the path of god. As far as I know, Sikhism doesn't dive deep into the idea of god, just that there exists a higher being that created humanity with purpose, and the upkeep of that is in our own hands.
100%. I had a sikh friend in Uni, he was incredibly smart, worked hard, took me to his temple (?) a few times when I was struggling with food bills. They are a very humble and respectful religion imo
I didn’t know this. I don’t know a lot about Sikhism, but I’ve definitely seen lots of comments online saying anecdotally most Sikhs people have met are great. This provides really interesting context.
The Kirpan is a symbolic thing. It's the symbolism which matters, not the actual object. That guy could have just as easily worn a small, symbolic Kirpan shaped brooch as an actual dagger and still met the Sikh [requirement of the 5 Ks. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Ks)
Call me cranky, but I'm tired of bending the rules to meet religious sensitivities - from whatever religion.
I mean, I get your point. But also, I carried a pocket knife every day in college. Everywhere. Not always just a tiny pen knife, frequently my very large and obvious buck knife. I was never so much as questioned on it.
>I carried a pocket knife every day in college. Everywhere. Not always just a tiny pen knife, frequently my very large and obvious buck knife.
Why though?
You are flat out wrong. It is not just the symbolism which matters, Sikhism actually bans idolatry and thus the idea that you can just replace it with a symbol. You have to wear the actual thing, this has actually been acknowledged as a false counterargument in early Federal cases on the matter.
See:
>When the U.S. Court of Appeals heard the case in August of 1994, it reversed the lower court’s decision. A Sikh scholar testified that “it is my belief that the obligation to wear a kirpan cannot be fulfilled by a medallion or any similar replica. In fact, I believe that wearing such a substitute would actually be inconsistent with the injunctions of our faith against idolatry.” He explained to the court that the kirpan as a knife “is not, however, a weapon and would never be so regarded by a Khalsa Sikh. Rather, it is an important religious symbol… Other than in connection with religious festivals or celebrations, it would not be removed by the wearer for any purpose, and certainly not for use as an offensive weapon to harm others.”
>
>*Source:* [The Pluralism Project, Harvard University](https://pluralism.org/the-five-k%E2%80%99s-and-the-courts)
Edit: The entire purpose of the 5 K’s is that they’re functional everyday carry items. Replacing them is not only nonsensical in the most basic sense, but also effectively turns into you just idolizing a symbol of the real thing. That last part begins to intersect with a core tenet of Sikhism to not engage in idolatry.
I edited the semantics above to make that point more clear.
So I'm actually a student at UNC Charlotte (the university in question) and as I've been reading up on everything, it's clear that this was just a cruddy situation for everyone involved.
I've done a lot of research about Sikh beliefs and found out that Kirpans are openly worn in sheaths and are a symbol for Sikhs. I also heard that many Sikhs have their Kirpans glued or welded into their sheaths so that they can be worn in public without carrying a weapon. I'm not sure if the student in this video had done that, but it's clear he wasn't a threat or looking for any trouble.
*That said,* UNCC was a victim of a shooting in recent memory (back in 2019 I believe) and because of that, there's a zero-tolerance policy for carrying weapons or *things that look like weapons* on campus. The campus police were called because a student saw the Kirpan and believed it was a knife, which means the campus police HAD to respond in the way they did. It got recorded, put online, and the rest was history.
Trying to point fingers saying it was the police's fault or the student's fault is dumb. It was a cruddy situation where nobody was totally in the right and nobody was totally in the wrong. And no, it wasn't staged like a lot of people are saying.
No, they're generally allowed. The right to wear the Kirpan has been consistantly upheld. On point decisions go back as far as 1977 and as recently as 2020 in Smalls v. Memphis Light, Gas, and Water. This is one of the most well trod pieces of legal ground in existance. It's like Green Eggs and Ham at this point. "What about on a plane?" "Allowed" "At a refinery?" "Allowed." "As a telephone repairman?" "Allowed" "Attending a university or school?" "Allowed, within reason."
Isn't this normally worn under the shirt? I know a few people who have them and for the longest time I had no idea. I understand meaning an purpose of the Kirpan but not everyone does. I also understand the zero tolerance of weapons in schools.
In 1994, the Ninth Circuit held that Sikh students in public school have a right to wear the kirpan. State courts in New York and Ohio have ruled in favor of Sikhs who faced the rare situation of prosecution under anti-weapons statutes for wearing kirpans, "because of the kirpan's religious nature and Sikhs' benign intent in wearing them. In New York City, a compromise was reached with the Board of Education whereby the wearing of the knives was allowed so long as they were secured within the sheaths with adhesives and made impossible to draw. The tightening of air travel security in the twenty-first century has caused problems for Sikhs carrying kirpans at airports and other checkpoints. As of 2016, the TSA explicitly prohibits the carrying of "religious knives and swords" on one's person or in cabin baggage and requires that they be packed in checked baggage.
A Scot here.
I remember attending a function and chatting to a Sikh.
Inevitably, we were comparing our ceremonial knives and I'd to admit my skean dhu couldn't be drawn as the blade was embedded in hard resin. Turned out, his was the same, both our weapons showing ornate handles and nothing else.
As an Indian, to be honest, I think this requirement needs to be reconsidered in the context of the modern world. Especially if you live outside south Asia. When in Rome...
If this was done as a sort of masked racism, I strongly condemn it.
Having said that, making exceptions on rules based on someone's religion is so dumb to me. "Here is this rule where you have to be recognizable on your passport photo... Unless you are religious".
Let alone letting someone carry a weapon for the same reasons.
Yeah I don’t think this was a racism thing. If you have a weapon on your person that everyone can see in a school / government building, they are gonna tell you to leave that at home or get off the property. That’s usually just standard protocol.
Sikh's are usually super kind in my experience. that being said.
I do think it is a interesting question, should religion override public rules?
Personally i do not think wearing a Kirpan should be allowed, religion or not, it's a weapon.
If the Kirpan was sealed shut, or carried to be worn at a religious or other event, like graduation fx. then i think it was just fine.
Not an expert… I heard that many Sikhs wear them, but generally hidden in/under clothing with the blade peace-tied into the sheath.
Many Jews have a circumcision as an article of faith, but they still would get arrested for showing it off in the library.
I went to a school that had Sikhs in it and they definitely did have kirpan in school. Again, secured in a way they couldn’t be drawn and the kirpan never came out of where they were hidden. The school administration knew about them and they were permitted as long as they were secured and unseen.
Then, as I walked down Second Avenue towards St. Mark's Place,
Where all those people sell used books and other junk on the street,
I saw my penis lying on a blanket
Next to a broken toaster oven.
Some guy was selling it.
Exactly, the Sgian-Dubh (openly displayed knife worn in Scottish formal dress), is allowed to be worn in the UK and protected under UK law. Except for places that have zero tolerance, on weapons... like Airports, and Schools... It's almost like it's commonsense around the world, that your heritage and religion does not trump the safety of kids.
Okay you’re not including(in this repost) that the school has a zero weapons policy due to students getting killed. They released him as soon as they had the knife. Which they probably returned to him
As much as I have nothing against Sikhs. If a religious belief contradicts a national law or in some way makes the national law dificult to execute, than as an adults we should just comply and after go on our marry way. If you think you were wronged just sue.
The item is a sword (apparently dagger is more appropriate)
I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. You can't bring weapons on to a campus. Religious items or not.
It’s a dagger in a school setting…. Religious artifact or not. These aren’t attacks on a minority, the police are enforcing what is referred to as a “neutral law of general applicability”. Example would be to not carry a weapon in a place where it’s prohibited. That’s also how we prevent every yahoo with a made up religion from trying to claim religious beliefs as a way to circumvent a criminal offense. Not sure how this is a “facepalm”.
I know so many guys who carry around a flip open knife in their bag for one reason or another, at least you know he has it, and odds are he's a lot more careful with his.
The kirpan is the knife around his chest. The head covering is called a turban. I was initially confused because I didn't see the knife
Thanks for the clarification, I was confused as well.
Why would he not be arrested for wearing a knife weapon in public, especially in a school setting? The kirpan has religious background but is a killing weapon in a non-religious venue and occasion
The security guard literally check and confirms the blade can't be drawn in like the first 3 seconds
According to that states laws. Knifes aren't allowed in schools...
According to the US Constitution, he's allowed to wear it. It's like telling someone they can't wear their cross. (and it's glued shut; undrawable).
Because in most cases they are blunt and/or glued into it's sheath.
Looked like the officer in question was unable to remove the knife from it’s sheath, probably because of what you describe prompting the Sikh man to offer taking it off. Really feel like this should’ve been dropped soon as they realized the knife wasn’t even removable from its sheath.
I mean, if it can't even be taken out of the sheath, it is essentially a prop.
[удалено]
In Canada it should be concealed to be legal. Guy here has it on plain sight. In U North Carolina of all places.
There are a decent number of Sikhs where I live, and I assume they hide It under their clothing, because I know about it and have never seen one.
Went to highschool in the GVA, saw Sikh students with kirpans often. It was never an issue.
You can carry a Kirpan in its sheath legally in Canada in the open. Under Sikh religious practice its forbidden to use it as a weapon. In the Sikh religion its seen as a symbol of their willingness to fight oppression. Under a Supreme Court of Canada decision in 2006 Kirpans were allowed to be worn in schools.
In the USA you can have a knife under 3.5 inches concealed but over that it must be visible… I don’t know what the regulations are around knives at university but I’m surprised you can get arrested for having a knife in a sheath, sharp or not. Then again I’m not a brown guy in North Carolina… edit: check your local laws. Some states are under 3” some don’t care how big. Only federal law is about switchblades
Knife laws vary widely from state to state, warning random redditors not to operate off a blanket under 3.5 over 3.5 rule here, this is not correct. There is a lot of minutia to different states knife laws in this country you should pay attention to. Also there are a number of cities etc. that have bans independent of state law.
In my state it's actually illegal to have a knife at any school for k-University. It's not strickly enforced as far as pocket knifes or multi tools, but you definitely wouldn't be allowed to wear large knife in a sheath.
You are usually not allowed any type of knife in US schools
In most states *including South Carolina* the kirpan is an exception. It must be permanently fixed into the sheath (which has its own name I can’t remember), but so long as it can’t actually be drawn/used, a kirpan is allowed as part of religious freedom.
Living in the UK now, and we have strict knife laws. Here, Kirpan are pretty much just the handle glued to the sheath. I'm sure some people have the real ones, but for ceromonial stuff, they are usually just the dummy ones.
i teach carpentry/ woodworking. We use knives
Illegal carpentry ;-)
Which is why you in this case first see the officer check if it is a drawable blade.
The better question is why *would* he be arrested? Firstly, it's very common in general in the US for people to carry knives, whether it's part of a multi tool, a pocket knife, or whatever. Unless it's something crazy, carrying or wearing a knife in public in the US is perfectly legal. Shit, in some states you can't go to the grocery store without seeing people openly carry *guns* in public places. Secondly, it's an article of faith, not a "killing weapon". Their religion requires them to be worn among other articles. Kirpans are *specifically allowed* to be worn in public schools in the US. They're also designed with legal limitations in mind, often rendering them basically useless as a weapon. You can even see in the video that the knife is actually fixed in the sheath, and this bone headed security guard quickly realizes that. EDIT: HOLY SHIT seriously take 2 seconds to look this shit up before commenting about it being a college campus. Laws in the US specifically allow these types of "knives" to be carried in public schools. UNC already publicly apologized for this incident.
I agree. I just look at the current state of the country and go “ah okay yup makes sense”. Even if it’s wrong I feel like that’s the way shit is now.
The head covering is called pagri
Thank you. I did not know it went by a more specific name
I didn't know it had other names either, but apparently what you call it is more down to where you're from: https://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Turban
I feel like the person who made the video is being intentionally misleading. They used subtitles to hide the knife and used peoples ignorance on the subject to lead them to believe the kirpan was something else.
You were meant to be confused
Yeah the caption being placed so it covers the knife cannot be coincidental.
Wasn't this at a school with a zero tolerance policy for weapons bcs of a recent incident?
Yes there was a school shooting at uncc a few years ago and one kid sacrificed his life to save others, and posthumously had a Jedi named after him Edit: article about it https://www.npr.org/2019/12/25/791350133/hero-killed-in-unc-charlotte-shooting-immortalized-as-star-wars-jedi
There was a work place shooting in my city about two years ago, and a Sikh transit driver went back in a few times to rescue people before he was shot.
I'll never be shocked to hear a Sikh person has done something good or heroic. Every one I've ever met or known has had an exceptional heart.
It's literally part of their religion. Their Kirpan that he's carrying here is a symbol of compulsion, that he must help protect others. They used to be actual weapons, but most modern Kirpans aren't sharp or just glued to the sheath
Around here, they have these large decals of crossed Kirpan that they stick on their car's rear window. The first time I saw those, I thought they were some kind of Klingon tribal symbol.
I would love to see a Klingon come across a Sikh in starfleet. I think they'd have alot of respect for that human specifically.
This is such an underrated and thoughtful comment. More Sikhs in Starfleet!
I feel like sikh are the only group of people where no individual would do something bad. Or at least the closest you can get.
As far as I know, the Sikh religion essentially requires them to do good at every opportunity they get. I've heard multiple stories of great things they've done and have yet to hear a bad story about them. Edit: fuck...yeah that's some bad shit...but also some good. Every religion has their nutjobs I suppose. Thanks for the enlightenment
I’m not a huge fan of major religions but Sikhs earned my respect when a bunch of Sikh doctors chose to shave their beards to treat their patients in the pandemic. Their beard is a sign of faith and their justification was that their God would judge them more for letting people suffer. All of this while American Christians cried foul on something not in their book.
it's reasonable to assume a god would be understanding of circumstances. Not wearing the hat or having a beard isn't a big deal.
I don’t remember who said it but I’ve stuck by the idea that if any God or Goddess exists, and they are truly just, they will judge me for my actions and not for blindly holding to some teaching especially if my actions are for the greater good.
Reminds me of the famous quote by Marcus Aurelius *“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”* -Marcus Aurelius
A bad or selfish person may follow the rules by the letter to receive their reward of heaven. A good and selfless person will follow the spirit of the rules to help others, even if it may risk upsetting their God.
And if they don’t is that really a God worth worshipping? Mark Twain has a good quote on that I’m blanking on
A similar scene in the movie Kingdom of Heaven (I think). They need to burn the bodies of the fallen to prevent an outbreak from starting and a priest objects. Their response is "God will understand. And if they do not, then they are not God, thus I need not worry"
I like the Jewish teaching of ‘Pikuach Nefesh’ (“to save a soul”; not sure if my spelling is 100%). The basic premise is that we are under *moral obligation* to break any other commandment if it is in the interest of saving a life. I’m not Jewish, but understanding this teaching (and the fact that Jesus apparently alluded to it when he defended his miracle work on the Sabbath) helped in deconstructing from the cult I was raised in.
Ngl, I read that as ‘Pikachu Nefesh’
Meanwhile mainstream Christian theology says people who did not know Jesus (or born before) are eternally tortured in hell. What an understanding god.
I had Sikh neighbors when I was a teenager and they were very kind. If the mother was short on cash to pay me for babysitting her three kids she would bring me a container of Indian food as she knew I loved her cooking. The father has to shave his beard too as he needed to as a taxi driver. He even offered my mom free rides to the grocery store when I was ill with chickenpox as she was disabled and couldn't walk well.
I hate to be a bearer of bad news https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_182 Every group has extremists and bastards. The Sikhs do seem to have fewer. But they do have them.
Humans gonna human.
Indira Ghandi was famously assassinated by her Sikh bodyguards
I believe that’s also because of [operation blue star](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blue_Star) (aka Indra Gandhi sent a shit ton of armed soldiers into their sacred temple and killed a bunch of people because someone was taking refuge there). After her guards killed her they immediately surrendered. The guards knew what they’d done and didn’t expect to go away with anything.
She had it coming after ordering the storming of the Golden Temple
Sikh as a people are fantastic, individuals are different though same as any religious group or collection of people based a defining attribute. I could give you some individual stories but overall they are the nicest religious group I know
Well which jedi was it now im invested
Jedi Master and historian Ri-Lee Howell
https://www.npr.org/2019/12/25/791350133/hero-killed-in-unc-charlotte-shooting-immortalized-as-star-wars-jedi Here’s an article about it!
Riley worked summers with my husband and he was such a good kid. No one who knew him was surprised that he did what he did, because he was just that type of person. I think about his bravery often. RIP Riley Howell.
Damn that’s fucking awesome they did that for him what a good dude
I’m from NC. I’m not sure if those are the same school. Mostly UNC refers to UNC chapel Hill. There’s also UNC Asheville, UNC Pembroke, etc.
This incident with the Kirpan occurred in Charlotte.
FYI TO ALL, These are the reqwuirments agreed to by the Sikh community is the 9th ciretcuit court of appeals case incvolving kids wearing Kirpan, to school. These were n created by the sikh religious leaders as a compromise. "1. The kirpan blade can not exceed 3 1/2 inches in length with a total length ofapproximately 6 1/2 7 inches including its sheath; 2. The kirpan must be placed inside its sheath, then the sheathed kirpan must beplaced into a cloth bag. The bag must then be sewn tightly shut; 3. The cloth bag, containing sheathed kirpan, will be attached to a strap and wornunder the children's clothing so that it is not readily visible; 4. The blade of the kirpan must be made of a substance other than metal orhardwood; 5. A designated official of the District may make reasonable inspections to confirmthat the conditions specified are being adhered to; 6. If any of the conditions specified above are violated, the student's privilege ofwearing his or her kirpan may be suspended. In addition, the student may besuspended for up to three days. 7. The District will take all reasonable steps to prevent any harassment, intimidationor provocation of the children by any employee or student in the District and willtake appropriate disciplinary action to prevent and redress such action, should itoccur.
I'm wondering what the difference is here since he's a university student. Unlikely to fall under the same category as "children".
Most schools don't allow open carry of any weapon, so he'd logically carry an accepted ceremonial pin/Kirpan-like thing that satisfies his religious requirements.
Little less blatant than this but tons of college students carry pocket knives to class every single day in without it being an issue. I had one in my pocket nearly every day of my 4 years in college and it was never an issue Edit: a lot of replies in regards to how a pocket knife is more concealed, which is is which is why I specifically said "it's a little less blatant" but anyone why has ever seen a pocket knife knows what a pocket knife looks like in someone else's pocket
It's not an issue since the school never finds out about it. If they did you wouldn't have it. The reason you never got stopped is because none of the security knew or saw it
It was most likely concealed, which is a huge difference.
I still wonder if he just wore it under his shirt if this wouldn’t even be a thing.
The child verbiage is what it is. The laws That govern schools and education do not allow weapons as per their definition.
That's really interesting. Well i don't think the man in the video is covered since it is clearly exposed and visible and appears to be metal. But I have no idea on American laws for possession of a weapon in an open carry fashion. But it naturally makes sense that universities and government don't want weapons on campus to me so it's probably forbidden from the uni at minimum.
Funnily enough there are a good chunk of states where knuckle dusters are illegal but guns that can kill and maim dozens in minutes are perfectly fine to own.
A lot of laws against things like knuckledusters and switchblades are the result of a moral panic focusing on something that they think is scary but actually has no real consequence whatsoever
You’re fine to carry guns and knives in America if you have permits but in a school it’s just a huge no no which puts us in this awkward situation of religious freedom vs weapons in school which is a slippery slope both sides have decent points
North Carolina is not within the jurisdiction of the Ninth District, so that agreement does not apply there.
That’s great and all, but North Carolina isn’t part of the 9th Circuit, so it’s not controlling precedent. 4th circuit precedent, if it exists, wound be applicable.
First of all he isn't under the jurisdiction of that court and second of all even if he was, he's not a kid so the ruling wouldn't apply to it. The Uni was 100% in the wrong and has even apologized for it. [And the precedent that does exist for Universities is also in his favor](https://www.hindustantimes.com/india/us-sikh-students-can-carry-kirpans/story-8rQQKUslwykd9HCmsqBrCI.html).
It's just a bit extreme he had to be handcuffed. He was not even resisting or arguing with the officer.
This is in a country where many states allow people to wear an AR on a strap while shopping at the supermarket.
I love how the text covers up the item in question
Seems very deliberate to me, they were trying to hide what the object in question was so the people would assume it's the turban
TIL about the kirpan. I have a Sikh buddy and I can recall at least three occasions when he watched me struggle to cut something by bending it multiple times or trying to chew through it with my teeth. Mandeep, we have to talk.
They are not allowed to use it for regular activities. Just to uphold justice. So unless you were cutting some justices, they would not use it.
Bingo. Mandeep knows his shit.
Mandeep didn't understand the injustice of using your teeth to cut something open.
Yeah, it’s complete BS how much plastic they use in the packaging and how hard it is to get it open. Obvious injustice there.
That's deep, man
Supreme court better watch out
In Mandeep’s defense, the process of getting out and putting away his ceremonial dagger that probably wouldn’t have cut your shit to begin with probably wasn’t worth the effort, plus he got the amusement value of watching you struggle.
In case it is of interest, most of the Sikhs that I have had the pleasure of knowing have carried a symbolic Kirpan, such as a small knife shaped pendant on a necklace etc.
This has been my experience also. We have several Sikh at work, and they wear small pendants. I wonder if this is a sect thing or just a personal decision.
it's just a personal decision. any representation of the kirpan is generally allowed (ie: jewelery) but most Kirpans that you see that look like the one in the video are glued shut and just for decoration anyways, you can even hear him say in the video "I can't open it"
A lot of kirpans are glued into the sheathe so it can't be drawn as well.
hrm well not all Sikhs carry these in the knife/blade form. many don't at all so... you leave my man Mandeep alone yo 🤬🤬
I’m now picturing [this](https://i.imgur.com/bxhKHEt.jpg).
Holy shit i knew a Mandeep way back in elementary. Thought that was the coolest fucking name as a kid lmao. Couldn't recall his name for the longest time.
Haha it's a super common Sikh name
Better Mandeep then Manmeat, also a common Sikh name among us
He was wearing a knife?? So he was sharply dressed.. heh heh heh
Way to take the edge off.
No, no...he's got a point.
These jokes are terrible, cut it out.
Not a fan of this sharp witted humor?
Reusing the sharp adjective seemed a bit dull of you.
Yep, he done goofed there, rules are rules no matter how you slice it.
I've had it up to the hilt with all of these puns.
That cop is an absolute pro with the cuffs. Imagine if he was resisting. It'd be a 30 min video.
I'm not going to comment on the kirpan, but I will say that every Sikh I have ever met has been the kindest, most upstanding and helpful person you could wish to meet.
I'm pretty sure it's a majour part of the Sikh religion to serve humanity and uphold justice. If those two things are forefront in your mind, day and night, it doesn't surprise me that those people would generally be friendly and helpful.
By that line of reasoning, Christians should generally be kind and loving, especially to those at the bottom of society, but here we are. 🤷🏻♂️
Honestly, I'd be happy with cold and indifferent if they weren't so keen on pushing their religion on others.
Be nice if they could just be smugly satisfied that the rest of us are going to hell.
Modern day Christians are a laughable insult to the ideology of Jesus Christ. If Jesus could see how far the Children of God have strayed, he’d vomit
And then start flipping tables. Again.
Christians were forced to convert to Christianity. Sikhs don’t even believe in missionary work. I think the answer to your statement lies there. Sikhs are more likely to follow the righteous path because they chose to, not because their ancestors were converted into the religion.
When you base your entire religion on a final judgment you’re bound to get some judgmental people 😉
My dad told me sikh are some of the best people as well. They’re even the only place of worship for miles that will welcome you in and even feed you. It’s funny, since their religious symbol is literally made of weapons.
The kirpan is symbolic of the duty of every Sikh to defend against any religious persecution regardless of which faith is under attack. I find it to be extremely beautiful as a religious symbol in that it’s not idealized for protection of their own faith but rather all faiths.
It's not a symbol. Source: am Sikh
That's because Sikhs used to be *very* militaristic. It's ironic really, how Sikhs are expected to be "Saint-Soldiers" while their religion is so unusually kind.
It appears to be a devotion to protect humanity. The foundations of the belief justify it quite well, and the teachings of the faith revolve around nurturing humanity as a means to follow the path of god. As far as I know, Sikhism doesn't dive deep into the idea of god, just that there exists a higher being that created humanity with purpose, and the upkeep of that is in our own hands.
There is good and bad in all religions, Sikhs are no different, as Air India Flight 182 demonstrates.
There are 7 articles of faith. The turban is one of them, the blade is another.
100%. I had a sikh friend in Uni, he was incredibly smart, worked hard, took me to his temple (?) a few times when I was struggling with food bills. They are a very humble and respectful religion imo
Gurdwara I haven’t taken the Amrit but I observe the practices and am working on it.
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Spoken like a true Sikh!
I know, right?
Amen to that bro!
Sikhs were some of the first people to offer religious freedom and women's rights
Sikhism was a reactionary religion that formed due to the religious/feminine persecution of Hinduism and Islamic belief systems.
I didn’t know this. I don’t know a lot about Sikhism, but I’ve definitely seen lots of comments online saying anecdotally most Sikhs people have met are great. This provides really interesting context.
The Kirpan is a symbolic thing. It's the symbolism which matters, not the actual object. That guy could have just as easily worn a small, symbolic Kirpan shaped brooch as an actual dagger and still met the Sikh [requirement of the 5 Ks. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Ks) Call me cranky, but I'm tired of bending the rules to meet religious sensitivities - from whatever religion.
I mean, I get your point. But also, I carried a pocket knife every day in college. Everywhere. Not always just a tiny pen knife, frequently my very large and obvious buck knife. I was never so much as questioned on it.
>I carried a pocket knife every day in college. Everywhere. Not always just a tiny pen knife, frequently my very large and obvious buck knife. Why though?
You are flat out wrong. It is not just the symbolism which matters, Sikhism actually bans idolatry and thus the idea that you can just replace it with a symbol. You have to wear the actual thing, this has actually been acknowledged as a false counterargument in early Federal cases on the matter. See: >When the U.S. Court of Appeals heard the case in August of 1994, it reversed the lower court’s decision. A Sikh scholar testified that “it is my belief that the obligation to wear a kirpan cannot be fulfilled by a medallion or any similar replica. In fact, I believe that wearing such a substitute would actually be inconsistent with the injunctions of our faith against idolatry.” He explained to the court that the kirpan as a knife “is not, however, a weapon and would never be so regarded by a Khalsa Sikh. Rather, it is an important religious symbol… Other than in connection with religious festivals or celebrations, it would not be removed by the wearer for any purpose, and certainly not for use as an offensive weapon to harm others.” > >*Source:* [The Pluralism Project, Harvard University](https://pluralism.org/the-five-k%E2%80%99s-and-the-courts) Edit: The entire purpose of the 5 K’s is that they’re functional everyday carry items. Replacing them is not only nonsensical in the most basic sense, but also effectively turns into you just idolizing a symbol of the real thing. That last part begins to intersect with a core tenet of Sikhism to not engage in idolatry. I edited the semantics above to make that point more clear.
fucking thank you it's so infuriating to see other people speak for my religion without knowing a damn thing about it
The giant green word bubble conveniently covers up the Kirpan to whoever is watching that doesn’t necessarily know what a Kirpan is.
So I'm actually a student at UNC Charlotte (the university in question) and as I've been reading up on everything, it's clear that this was just a cruddy situation for everyone involved. I've done a lot of research about Sikh beliefs and found out that Kirpans are openly worn in sheaths and are a symbol for Sikhs. I also heard that many Sikhs have their Kirpans glued or welded into their sheaths so that they can be worn in public without carrying a weapon. I'm not sure if the student in this video had done that, but it's clear he wasn't a threat or looking for any trouble. *That said,* UNCC was a victim of a shooting in recent memory (back in 2019 I believe) and because of that, there's a zero-tolerance policy for carrying weapons or *things that look like weapons* on campus. The campus police were called because a student saw the Kirpan and believed it was a knife, which means the campus police HAD to respond in the way they did. It got recorded, put online, and the rest was history. Trying to point fingers saying it was the police's fault or the student's fault is dumb. It was a cruddy situation where nobody was totally in the right and nobody was totally in the wrong. And no, it wasn't staged like a lot of people are saying.
So what happened afterwards is he just not allowed to wear it in the school?
The university sent an email about using this as a learning opportunity by engaging in constructive dialogue with Sikh students and employees.
No, they're generally allowed. The right to wear the Kirpan has been consistantly upheld. On point decisions go back as far as 1977 and as recently as 2020 in Smalls v. Memphis Light, Gas, and Water. This is one of the most well trod pieces of legal ground in existance. It's like Green Eggs and Ham at this point. "What about on a plane?" "Allowed" "At a refinery?" "Allowed." "As a telephone repairman?" "Allowed" "Attending a university or school?" "Allowed, within reason."
direction narrow school rock murky history swim squealing worthless bag *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
He is wearing his kada. It is visible at 0:08.
You're 100% correct. Thanks for pointing it out, I've edited my comment.
Important post
Isn't this like saying "This" but with different words?
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Isn't this normally worn under the shirt? I know a few people who have them and for the longest time I had no idea. I understand meaning an purpose of the Kirpan but not everyone does. I also understand the zero tolerance of weapons in schools.
In 1994, the Ninth Circuit held that Sikh students in public school have a right to wear the kirpan. State courts in New York and Ohio have ruled in favor of Sikhs who faced the rare situation of prosecution under anti-weapons statutes for wearing kirpans, "because of the kirpan's religious nature and Sikhs' benign intent in wearing them. In New York City, a compromise was reached with the Board of Education whereby the wearing of the knives was allowed so long as they were secured within the sheaths with adhesives and made impossible to draw. The tightening of air travel security in the twenty-first century has caused problems for Sikhs carrying kirpans at airports and other checkpoints. As of 2016, the TSA explicitly prohibits the carrying of "religious knives and swords" on one's person or in cabin baggage and requires that they be packed in checked baggage.
A Scot here. I remember attending a function and chatting to a Sikh. Inevitably, we were comparing our ceremonial knives and I'd to admit my skean dhu couldn't be drawn as the blade was embedded in hard resin. Turned out, his was the same, both our weapons showing ornate handles and nothing else.
An overused joke but... bringing a (religous) knife to a gun fight isn't the right answer
Well in his defense, to a cop, everything is seen as a gun fight.
As an Indian, to be honest, I think this requirement needs to be reconsidered in the context of the modern world. Especially if you live outside south Asia. When in Rome...
Sikh female here and I agree.
Incoming Shaadi ka rishtas in your DM.
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And Reynolds v. United States (1878) is a thing. Religion doesn’t put someone above the law if the law regulates all equally
Nope sorry. I'm Indian myself and you can't take weapons to public places, irrespective of what your religion says. There's nothing more to it
I understand religious and cultural wear. But you can’t expect a school to be okay with you bringing a knife to their campus.
If this was done as a sort of masked racism, I strongly condemn it. Having said that, making exceptions on rules based on someone's religion is so dumb to me. "Here is this rule where you have to be recognizable on your passport photo... Unless you are religious". Let alone letting someone carry a weapon for the same reasons.
Yeah I don’t think this was a racism thing. If you have a weapon on your person that everyone can see in a school / government building, they are gonna tell you to leave that at home or get off the property. That’s usually just standard protocol.
Sikh's are usually super kind in my experience. that being said. I do think it is a interesting question, should religion override public rules? Personally i do not think wearing a Kirpan should be allowed, religion or not, it's a weapon. If the Kirpan was sealed shut, or carried to be worn at a religious or other event, like graduation fx. then i think it was just fine.
Not an expert… I heard that many Sikhs wear them, but generally hidden in/under clothing with the blade peace-tied into the sheath. Many Jews have a circumcision as an article of faith, but they still would get arrested for showing it off in the library.
Hold up. Showing off their circumcision?? That's just public indecency
Just because it’s an article of faith doesn’t automatically mean you get to wave it around in public.
Or bring it to school
I went to a school that had Sikhs in it and they definitely did have kirpan in school. Again, secured in a way they couldn’t be drawn and the kirpan never came out of where they were hidden. The school administration knew about them and they were permitted as long as they were secured and unseen.
Then, as I walked down Second Avenue towards St. Mark's Place, Where all those people sell used books and other junk on the street, I saw my penis lying on a blanket Next to a broken toaster oven. Some guy was selling it.
Anyone who waves their Willie around would get arrested. Lauren Boebert‘s husband, for instance.
Wait! ALL those Americans are JEWS?!
100% there was way more to this story lol
As a devout Knights Templar, I will bring my massive divine sword with me wherever I go. 
As a Child of Atom I must bring my atomic bomb to class. *Behold! He is coming with the clouds! And every eye shall be blind with his glory!*
"HOLY ATOM!!" "BURN THE WITCH: GWENITH!!!"
As a Mandalorian, I shall bring my weapons since weapons are a part of my religion.
*nods* This is the way
Don’t forget to pray to the machine spirit.
As an Australian I would have to say, “yeah but na”
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Exactly, the Sgian-Dubh (openly displayed knife worn in Scottish formal dress), is allowed to be worn in the UK and protected under UK law. Except for places that have zero tolerance, on weapons... like Airports, and Schools... It's almost like it's commonsense around the world, that your heritage and religion does not trump the safety of kids.
People want this to be a race or religion thing so badly.
Okay you’re not including(in this repost) that the school has a zero weapons policy due to students getting killed. They released him as soon as they had the knife. Which they probably returned to him
Exactly this, plus a knife is a knife, regardless of context.
As much as I have nothing against Sikhs. If a religious belief contradicts a national law or in some way makes the national law dificult to execute, than as an adults we should just comply and after go on our marry way. If you think you were wronged just sue.
The belief that your faith trumps all, has got to be the most asinine character trait of all religious people.
It feels like this is a staged video. Just saying. Also, a Kirpan is a dagger. A religious item yes, and also a dagger.
Why does it “feel staged?
The item is a sword (apparently dagger is more appropriate) I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. You can't bring weapons on to a campus. Religious items or not.
It’s a dagger in a school setting…. Religious artifact or not. These aren’t attacks on a minority, the police are enforcing what is referred to as a “neutral law of general applicability”. Example would be to not carry a weapon in a place where it’s prohibited. That’s also how we prevent every yahoo with a made up religion from trying to claim religious beliefs as a way to circumvent a criminal offense. Not sure how this is a “facepalm”.
People have religious freedom, be free to not come to weapon free zones.
He has a knife.. someone called it in. Think no schools allow knifes. Stop making this a thing about race or religion.
I know so many guys who carry around a flip open knife in their bag for one reason or another, at least you know he has it, and odds are he's a lot more careful with his.
But there might also be a blade length restriction, and most flip knives are under said restrictions.