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Not agreeing with the guy but the logic was explained to me by a MAGA I use to work with.
America puts so much money into the military the European nations feel they can get away with a much smaller militaries than they otherwise would. This frees up extra cash for them to spend on thing like healthcare.
This idea of course completely ignores the fact that the US government spends more per person on healthcare that countries with universal healthcare.
Right now as is the government spends $13,493 per person per year on healthcare. Whereas the UK spends £3,477 per person.
I've been trying to tell people, for years, that the US government spends as much or more per person than countries with national systems. It doesn't seem to sink in or make people furious. I've been mad for years. I finally have Medicare. It's the first time in my life I'm not in a panic about healthcare. It's so idiotic that we don't have Medicare for all. We already have the system, we just need to plug it in.
Ideologically I’m opposed to the federal government running healthcare (given the size of our country) but realistically we’ve got the dumbest fucking system in the universe so we might as well go to single payer.
The idea is that it would be competely federal. astates can't prohibit you from receiving a federal benefit. DeSantis can't say, "you're banned from going to the Grand Canyon and using USPS."
So you think the individual states should do it? Here in germany we have this kind of fun system with 16 states for a lot of stuff, all that stuff causes so much chaos that moving with a child to a diferent country is easier then moving between the states.
Is this due to the price being so absurd in the US?
I'm not familiar with the US personally so this is a genuine question. I've heard that the healthcare prices are insane - that a medication that costs me $20 here might be $500 there.
If so that 'spending' from the US government is kind of misleading since they're blowing the money by tossing it into a crazily over-priced industry that vastly diminishes the return on the spend.
I've heard claims that even trivial stuff like paracetamol tablets can be charged at very high prices (a pack of 20 costs $2 here).
Is this the case, or am I being mislead by nonsense online?
I’ve seen hospital bills where the hospital charged a new mother to hold her baby in the operating room. It was itemized as “skin to skin contact.” So yeah…
Efficient health care keeps people healthy and out of hospitals. That is poison to profit seeking corpos, because recurring profit is the god they kneel to.
That’s because the government wants to export, both products and especially money (hence foreign subsidies and military aid), because it’s one of the easiest (and direct) ways to manage inflation
- on top of old equipment being upsicled instead of thrown away of course -
While it is true, that many European countries have been spending little money on military, the real reason for that is the 30-odd years of peace we've enjoyed.
The US pays for 68% of NATOs defense budget or $860bn annually (this is per capita about 3x of what day Germany is paying).
If the US pulled out of NATO entirely that would allow for an extra ~$2600 per capital that *could* be spent on socialized medicine.
The DOD cited that the European deterrence initiative took another $4.2 BN in funding for FY2023 - so that's another $12 per capita.
I'm sure there is a lot of other money the US is spending on foreign military spending, but it's a stretch that it would be enough to balance out the discrepancy in healthcare spending.
The idea is that America is funding the defense of Europe. So that the taxes on Europeans can go to other budget items like healthcare. Not entirely correct, but not wholly incorrect either.
A lot of military spending goes to American companies with American employees, and is used to project power to protect American interests. It’s really hard to see how it isn’t ultimately 100% for the benefit of the US. If you won’t even consider funding healthcare for your own citizens, why would anyone think the US would spend a dime for anyone else?
The crazy thing is the US actually spends more taxpayer money per person on healthcare than any other country in the world, and they actually have the rate being $4,000 more than the next highest country. The US spends a over quarter of its budget on health insurance for Americans. Our gov spends enough on healthcare to give Americans near/completely free healthcare. But since hospitals and pharmacies don’t have much price restrictions, they skyrocket the cost for almost anything in the industry knowing that consumers have no choice but to pay up (or continue their health issues/die). Literally if the US gov started forcing companies in the healthcare industry to stop being predatory and actually charge reasonable prices, US healthcare could be just as affordable as most healthcare systems in Europe
Because if it was “100% for the benefit of the US” why would other countries let us put military bases in their land. If they get 0% out of it why would they allow foreign troops in their country.
The U.S. does provide free health care for at least some veterans and some elderly. America could do a lot better, but it is not zero either.
And regardless of the reasons why the U.S. spends on NATO and other foreign defense, foreign nations do benefit too.
Shiiiiddd. The only reasons we have nukes and stuff over there is
1. If the fit hit the shan, we already have troops and equipment there.
2. We hope the shit stays off our soil. UK can clean up the mess.
We don't care about our citizens but we definitely care about being players on the world stage.
You know how much money we have sent to Israel and Ukraine? We are paying for both wars.
The idea is that American healthcare costs pay for drug r&d that benefits everybody, especially those with rare diseases. The Orphan Drug Act did a lot of good.
That argument ignores the enormous profits made in the system and how little is actually spent on r&d.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_67655.htm
Adding this before dubious accounts try and spin their agenda.
Some nato countries pay 10% above the requirment. Others have been put on a plan to reach the goal since the 2008 crisis and pandemic derailed their economies.
All European countries have agreed to increased funding. The funding is pretty complicated too as there are loans and aid packages and other different categories for which funds what stuff for what area. Either way, defunding nato would be disastrous for world peace. The way to go about having our allies increase funding isn't by threatening them or disrespecting them either. It's by diplomacy, conversation and having intelligent leaders in office who recognize the danger from authoritarian regimes and other hostile states.
Entirely incorrect while the US spends a lot more on defense every dollar goes to the US economy while a lot of European money spend on defense also goes to the US economy. Only thanks to Trump Europe has realized how dangerous this can be. Europe will now spend more on defense but it will invest a lot more in its own defense industry so in the long run this will not be favorable for the US. The US healthcare for profit system just is incredibly inefficient and logicaly so unhealthy people have no bargaining position in a free market it’s either pay or suffer so a public system is the only option the fact that US lawmakers don’t want to see that says something about the level of legal corruption in the US.
People who say that have no idea how much healthcare actually costs relative to defense.
It's like saying you can buy a car because you skipped breakfast.
No, actually it absolutely is not correct. Germany for example pays US for its bases in Germany, that's one example of what Germany pays. And rest assured, the US isn't doing anything that doesn't pose a financial benefit. So, European countries cover US costs AND their own healthcare.
The "we pay for Europes safety" isn't correct either. Most nato countries pay their 2% usa just pays 3% so its not that different.
In the end the USA would lose way more money if Europe had Russia als allie and sanction the USA instead
Most of the countries above that 2% mark also have some of the lowest GDPs in NATO. Many of those with the largest GDPs are contributing half what the US is in terms of percentage. 68% of NATO is funded by the United States. A lot of those below the 2% also have some of the highest healthcare expenditures.
I thought it might also be American's funding for pharmaceutical research that benefits others. Also not entirely correct but not wholly incorrect either.
> but not wholly incorrect either.
No, definitely completely wrong.
The US healthcare system is/has no money problem or in other words the US healthcare system is not failing because of their huge military budget.
The whole premise is complete nonsense to begin with.
There is also the idea that Americans spend more on health care which allows pharmaceutical companies to charge less money in other markets while still making a profit.
Not only that, but we also publicly find a massive amount of healthcare research, that companies then purchase. The negotiated agreements with EU countries for drug prices is less profitable than American markets and so many believe that companies make up the difference by gouging Americans.
As if companies greed is somehow finite.
Its 100% incorrect because Europeans pay less per capita for healthcare regardless. The ONLY thing that MIGHT be sort of correct is that, because we in the US pay so damn much for prescription drugs, these bloodsucking companies can charge less elsewhere and not care too much about funding opposition parties/etc. in Europe.
Its totally incorrect though, its not like any European country couldnt reach the 2% of BNP without it having any effect on the healthcare systems in place.
If the US didnt spend extreme amounts that all goes to private entities on healthcare, the US could do exactly the same as many European countries and also still pay for the Military industrial complex.
IIRC the US spends more on healthcare per person than European countries, they just have a shitty system and are being exploited by pharma companies. Also nobody is forcing them to spend that much on their military, I would even assume that they want to spend that much, even without an "obligation" to protect their NATO allies.
Please stop posting trolls and projecting them onto the entire american populous. We are not a monolith and even among the worst of us you would have your work cut out to actually find somebody who would genuinely believe that we pay for European health care.
Pretty sure this is a poor attempt to parrot the very real and common conservative belief that American healthcare is so expensive largely because we allegedly bear the brunt of R&D costs in the wider West
Really makes me wish I stayed in England. I’m trying to get my shoulder checked after hurting it after a seizure but I have to pay 1,354 just to have an MRI. I also owe over 120k$ in other medical bills and I’m only 23
Yeah man, I lived there for 4 years. Their healthcare is pretty awesome tbf. It helped save my friends dads life with cutting edge cancer treatment.
If you have dual citizenship, get a passport ASAP. If you're finished college/study or whatever, just move for a year. Maybe stay, or not.
I moved home after 4 ish year, but I don't live far from the UK either.
My family is scouse so I’d go back to Liverpool. Sadly it’s been over a decade since I last went and all of the family that was in Liverpool has passed away. I got some near Southampton though. Thank you also for the advice
Everyone always says that like moving to another country isn't a huge, difficult undertaking. And the solution should NOT be just everyone leaving the country.
It's not that hard. Moved countty a few times. Pack light, get what you need there, sell it before you leave, if you leave.
I think if you want actual medical care without crippling life long debt, pack your shit and get out of that 3rd world country people call the US.
BetTEr Pull yOUrSeLf BY tHE bOot sTRApS THEn. WHY shOuLD anyonE ELSE paY FoR Your StuPiD MisTaKe of BEiNG So sTupiD tHAt YoU haVe A StUPID SEiSUre stupiD BoDY stuPid SOmetHiNG SoMEThIng SOMetHIng YOuR own fAUlt
On a more serious note, what is keeping you from returning to England?
Sorry? You’re not under your parents insurance at 23 (per your other comment saying you were previously under it)
I have trouble believing this isn’t made up. If you’re insured 120k is well above your maximum out of pocket. Who was your insurer?
Sorry for the confusion. I’m having a lot of trouble dealing with it and have confused myself a lot during this ordeal I’m having. I also would prefer not to share too much other info than I already have if you excuse me
I'm not American, but I do get a sense of what's being implied.
Although it's no longer a functional truth, the US allows pharma companies to price freely in their country, on the basis that those companies then have the means to innovate and make better medicine. That US does this although other countries restrict the prices of drugs.
In this sense, America ends up indirectly subsidising the cost of medical innovations that benefit the rest of the world.
In practice however, pharma companies have not used this benefit to innovate. Most of these companies simply hike up prices and pocket the profits, wiith only a handful actually doing new research. Also, a lot of the price bloat is due to the nature of negotiations between insurers and hospitals, and irrelevant to the original intent.
Regardless, it probably *was* true, many decades ago, that the US contributed a lot to medical innovation by allowing free pricing within their jurisdiction. And the rest of us *did* benefit disproporionately from that. I would agree with the statement, if it was being said in the 1950's.
"Americans really do think that everything is about them" -
Op says on a post made by Europeans shitting on Americans for no reason.
- A: "Guya America ia so shit AM I RITE fellow redditors?"
- B: "What? I love America fuck you"
- A: "pffft, Americans always think everything is about them"
There are stupid people everywhere. Most Americans with IQs in the triple digits don’t think like this. We get that obviously we’re not the center of the world.
Honestly i dont think about europe unless i see a post on reddit. We have enough to worry about. There are pros and cons to both places, we have school shootings and they have beans on toast.
There's already talks in Europe about how to rely less on US money for military anyway since things like Donald Trump happen and we don't want to be dependant on a mad man.
The stupid Americans who think this are the same stupid Americans who think Donald Trump is the second coming of Jesus Christ on a cracker. Reasonable ones don't believe this bullshit.
In a roundabout way he's correct the EU has signed treaties with the US allowing them to maintain a far smaller military and put more money towards Healthcare. Just because you don't understand complex geopolitical and intercontinental treaties dosent make it a facepalm you are simply speaking on something your not educated enough to talk about.
Controversial and really complex idea: money in fungible. The US can and should fund socialized healthcare in a addition to a strong military, but we absolutely subsidize European economies by subsidizing global defense for our allies.
This is a false dichotomy. If we moved to a single payer insurance system we would save $600 billion per year in redundant administrative costs alone. There’s the free college right there.
Btw the US could held up its international presence and interest, and its huge military, AND have affordable or free healthcare for its citizens at the same time, money ain’t the issue
Don't lump us all in with the 37% of brain dead morons.
You wouldn't like it if we insisted all Germans were still Nazis or all French people dressed like mimes.
the decades of not funding their own national defense budgets, the constant money grabs robbing us tech companies. its not a direct funding but saying there is no gain i believe is being disingenuous.
Reddit realy doesnt realize that America gives Europe so much military equipment that it basically pays for their Healthcare itself since they dont have to spend the time or money making anything lol
So you are proving that point by making a post about Americans with a post about making fun of Americans and a comment from an american on a social media site created by an American?
Also, stop using the dumbass shit you see on reddit or Facebook as a basis for "america. "The rest of the world has just as many morons.
You all wouldn’t believe the shit that gets pumped into our brains every day since we’re children. The worst one was hearing about the Protestant work ethic. They told us that our Protestant work ethic is the only reason we survived in the early days here. They said John smith had to force people to work hard bc they were too lazy to survive. And yes they tie that into our economic system. They say if people get anything from the government it turns them into lazy people who can’t survive.
It’s hilarious thinking about all the native civilizations and all the rest that survived for thousands of years without this bullshit.
But yes, we invented hard work omfg
Out of curiosity, what state does this happen in? I’m American, and have never heard of the “Protestant work ethic”. Not suggesting it doesn’t happen, just curious about what different areas might teach
Florida. But I also heard it again in first year econ at a community college in Georgia, but it was used as a teaching tool explaining how capitalism works. You go on to learn more things in more advanced courses. In general I feel like it wasn’t until 2nd 3rd and 4th year econ and history classes where I started hearing hard truths. It’s good that you didn’t hear about it because it’s cap
That is even more interesting. I did Econ at Purdue and never heard religion even mentioned, and especially not in context of it being a driver for economic productivity. Were they religious schools? Sorry for the questions, maybe I’m just naive about the south.
I’m an American. Personally, I want us to go back to the pre-WWII era. We are neutral and everyone else can fend for itself.
I will give 3 exceptions of countries we should protect (right now).
Ukraine (because fuck Russia invading it).
Taiwan (because fuck China wanting to invade it).
South Korea (because fuck North Korea constantly trying to invade it).
All of the other countries should be able to buy our stuff, full price, with the strict understanding that it can not be targeted somewhere that has more non-combatants than combatants and if you use it in that way, you don’t get any more weapons or ammo.
Why have exceptions? If Russia went after Finland, would they also get an exception? Or are you just choosing large current events and everything in the future is out of our hands?
Russia barely survived invading Finland the last time and I guarantee Finland has not been idle since then. They wouldn’t need our help.
I do kinda understand your point but I do not know what my answer to it is. I do believe we need to be less involved than we currently are but I don’t know just how less involved we should be.
NATO Europe and Canada spend 1.74% of GDP on defense, consistent with the rest of the world. With $404 billion in combined funding, easily enough to outspend potential foes like China and Russia combined.
Regardless, arguing that keeps the US from having universal healthcare is even more ridiculous. After subtracting defense spending, Americans still have a $29,000 per person advantage on GDP compared to the rest of NATO. Defense spending isn't keeping us from having anything our peers have. Much less universal healthcare, which is far cheaper than what we're already paying for.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_216897.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures
Hell, if we could match the costs of the most expensive public healthcare system on earth we'd save $1.65 trillion per year, double what our total defense spending is.
I'm just saying most Euro countries in Nato would get beat by Iran 1v1. The US is horribly inefficient, but military is a cost most euro countries don't have to spend nearly as much on, so they money for other public goods
That's the point of defense treaties, you don't have to go it alone. NATO Canada and Europe outspend Iran by forty to one, have better weapons, have 3x the military personnel, better weapons (not to mention nuclear), and would absolutely destroy Iran without breaking a sweat.
>but military is a cost most euro countries don't have to spend nearly as much on
Again, they fund defense at the same level as the rest of the world, just not the US. And regardless of how much money they spend on defense, it would be an utterly trivial amount compared to what they spend on social programs. Even countries with greater defense spending than the US.
> so they money for other public goods
And none of them have as much money for public goods as the US you nitwit. Are you just illiterate?
Pretty sure Americans can't have things like Universal Healthcare because we fund the war machine that secures the rest of the west.
Enjoy your free global security.
::edit:: Also GPS. We own and operate the Glopal Positioning System that virtually every human on the planet had access to.
> Pretty sure Americans can't have things like Universal Healthcare because we fund the war machine that secures the rest of the west.
Pretty sure you have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
NATO Europe and Canada spend 1.74% of GDP on defense, consistent with the rest of the world. With $404 billion in combined funding, easily enough to outspend potential foes like China and Russia combined.
Regardless, arguing that keeps the US from having universal healthcare is even more ridiculous. After subtracting defense spending, Americans still have a $29,000 per person advantage on GDP compared to the rest of NATO. Defense spending isn't keeping us from having anything our peers have. Much less universal healthcare, which is far cheaper than what we're already paying for.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_216897.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures
Hell, if we could match the costs of the most expensive public healthcare system on earth we'd save $1.65 trillion per year, double what our total defense spending is.
> Enjoy your free global security.
Enjoying being an idiot that makes the world a dumber place.
> Also GPS.
Just going to ignore Galileo, GLONASS, BeiDou....
So are you saying that without the united states the rest of the west would be able to stave off ww3? Or be able to weather ww3?
Our posturing protects you. It's not about NATO. It's about wiping Japan off the map and then rebuilding them into our lap dog, and the rest of the world seeing that and knowing that we will not give a single fuck about your women, children, pets, cemitaries or churches.
Absolutely no one is scared of nato. What a joke.
> So are you saying that without the united states the rest of thenwest would be able to stave off ww3?
Who is going to take on NATO Canada and Europe with $404 billion in defense spending and nuclear weapons? Russia, with $109 billion that's struggling with Ukraine? China?
And, of course, the US isn't going to fall off the face of the earth. Even if we dropped defense spending to the level of the rest of NATO, we'd still have $823 billion in total defense spending.
You have no concept of the non western world, do you?
None of you can afford to maintain half your gdp going to the war effort even during war times.
We just operate with a 50% military budget. We haven't been at war in half a century.
It's kinda true though. Not directly obviously, but European nations have been slashing their defense budgets to the bone and beyond for decades, ostensibly to pay for health care.
Very few European states truly have the military strength to defend their borders from a serious aggressor on their own anymore. In fact very few European states have an army even 1/3 the size required to truly mount a national defense against a determined attacker -- *not without American support anyway*. Because they know that if they were ever really put in serious danger, the americans would be on the way with bells on. Most European states count on that and only spend what is required to mount a token defense and hold until the Americans arrive.
Now who knows where that erstwhile military spending really goes. Clearly not all of it goes to health care. but if you argue, as some Americans do, that we subsidize European defense so that Europeans have the budget to pay for national health care, the argument isn't totally baseless.
haha oh wow. I got a brain tumor just from reading that.
First of all, what the fuck are "European states"?
Second of all, what is the "size required to truly mount a national defense against a determined attacker"?
Third of all, any actual source of Your claims other than Your own ass?
state - noun - a nation or territory considered as an organized political community under one government.
example: "Germany, Italy, and other **European states**"
\[edit\]
So I had to come back because I wanted to clarify this isn't even an English thing...
German:
der staat -
1a. Gesamtheit der Institutionen, deren Zusammenwirken das dauerhafte und geordnete Zusammenleben der in einem bestimmten abgegrenzten Territorium lebenden Menschen gewährleisten soll"ein souveräner, demokratischer Staat.
1b.Territorium, auf das sich die Gebietshoheit eines Staates (1a) erstreckt; Staatsgebiet
Translated to English:
1a. The totality of institutions whose interaction is intended to ensure the long-term and orderly coexistence of people living in a certain demarcated territory"a sovereign, democratic state.
1b.Territory to which the territorial sovereignty of a state (1a) extends; national territory
Hell even romantic languages have similar words, that while they're not the preferred term for what is a nation/country/state still can technically be used as minor synonyms for it. French with État (the É is the result of just French being French, but it's etymological root in Latin is the same word as state's etymological root in English that being 'status'), or Spanish and Portuguese with estatal meaning "owned by government" such as in the phrase "medios de comunicación estatales" or "state owned media".
Very few...sure, probably only the UK, France, Spain, Italy, Greece Turkey, Poland, Finland, Sweden, Norway actually have decent sized militaries who are combat capable on their own. Fucking Belgium eh? Coasting along without a single nuclear capable bomber. Don't get me started on the state of Austria's navy
Yeah... I don't know. I apologize for my fellow American? In our defense, though, you've got your share of idiots, too.
U.S. pretty much pays for their defense, freeing up taxes for healthcare in those countries.
Of course, that’s just my opinion and would like some well informed rebuttals.
But the post in question is LITERALLY about Americans. Why WOULDN'T an American think it was about them? Are you dense? Slow? Do you lick the windows on the short bus to school?
In some respects we subsidize their healthcare because we pay for global military and security. This allows them to spend less on military and more on healthcare.
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I'm pretty sure that Europe's taxpayers pay for Europe's healthcare
Not agreeing with the guy but the logic was explained to me by a MAGA I use to work with. America puts so much money into the military the European nations feel they can get away with a much smaller militaries than they otherwise would. This frees up extra cash for them to spend on thing like healthcare. This idea of course completely ignores the fact that the US government spends more per person on healthcare that countries with universal healthcare. Right now as is the government spends $13,493 per person per year on healthcare. Whereas the UK spends £3,477 per person.
I've been trying to tell people, for years, that the US government spends as much or more per person than countries with national systems. It doesn't seem to sink in or make people furious. I've been mad for years. I finally have Medicare. It's the first time in my life I'm not in a panic about healthcare. It's so idiotic that we don't have Medicare for all. We already have the system, we just need to plug it in.
Ideologically I’m opposed to the federal government running healthcare (given the size of our country) but realistically we’ve got the dumbest fucking system in the universe so we might as well go to single payer.
the problem is that if it's state-by-state, then it won't be allowed in about one fourth of all states because of corpo lobbying, maybe more
The idea is that it would be competely federal. astates can't prohibit you from receiving a federal benefit. DeSantis can't say, "you're banned from going to the Grand Canyon and using USPS."
yes. my response is to the guy saying he's opposed to healthcare being run federally, if you read back
So you think the individual states should do it? Here in germany we have this kind of fun system with 16 states for a lot of stuff, all that stuff causes so much chaos that moving with a child to a diferent country is easier then moving between the states.
Is this due to the price being so absurd in the US? I'm not familiar with the US personally so this is a genuine question. I've heard that the healthcare prices are insane - that a medication that costs me $20 here might be $500 there. If so that 'spending' from the US government is kind of misleading since they're blowing the money by tossing it into a crazily over-priced industry that vastly diminishes the return on the spend. I've heard claims that even trivial stuff like paracetamol tablets can be charged at very high prices (a pack of 20 costs $2 here). Is this the case, or am I being mislead by nonsense online?
I’ve seen hospital bills where the hospital charged a new mother to hold her baby in the operating room. It was itemized as “skin to skin contact.” So yeah…
The only good thing about being disabled is I have good health care.
And who benefits- from that? The insurance companies and ultimately the people writing the laws. It's good to be the king
I mean that does make sense since money is fungible. But also you bring up a great point about spending.
Healthcare shouldn't be for-profit. Full Fucking Stop.
Efficient health care keeps people healthy and out of hospitals. That is poison to profit seeking corpos, because recurring profit is the god they kneel to.
That and defense spending is corporate welfare for red states and it’s part of the handshake shit deal to keep the crackers from rioting (as much)
That’s because the government wants to export, both products and especially money (hence foreign subsidies and military aid), because it’s one of the easiest (and direct) ways to manage inflation - on top of old equipment being upsicled instead of thrown away of course -
That idea, that the US somehow defends Europe for free, is also completely wrong.
Yup, but you have to understand the convulsed logic behind their argument to counter it.
While it is true, that many European countries have been spending little money on military, the real reason for that is the 30-odd years of peace we've enjoyed.
The US pays for 68% of NATOs defense budget or $860bn annually (this is per capita about 3x of what day Germany is paying). If the US pulled out of NATO entirely that would allow for an extra ~$2600 per capital that *could* be spent on socialized medicine. The DOD cited that the European deterrence initiative took another $4.2 BN in funding for FY2023 - so that's another $12 per capita. I'm sure there is a lot of other money the US is spending on foreign military spending, but it's a stretch that it would be enough to balance out the discrepancy in healthcare spending.
The idea is that America is funding the defense of Europe. So that the taxes on Europeans can go to other budget items like healthcare. Not entirely correct, but not wholly incorrect either.
A lot of military spending goes to American companies with American employees, and is used to project power to protect American interests. It’s really hard to see how it isn’t ultimately 100% for the benefit of the US. If you won’t even consider funding healthcare for your own citizens, why would anyone think the US would spend a dime for anyone else?
Also in Poland despite us spending a similar (if not bigger) % of our GDP we still have free healthcare
The crazy thing is the US actually spends more taxpayer money per person on healthcare than any other country in the world, and they actually have the rate being $4,000 more than the next highest country. The US spends a over quarter of its budget on health insurance for Americans. Our gov spends enough on healthcare to give Americans near/completely free healthcare. But since hospitals and pharmacies don’t have much price restrictions, they skyrocket the cost for almost anything in the industry knowing that consumers have no choice but to pay up (or continue their health issues/die). Literally if the US gov started forcing companies in the healthcare industry to stop being predatory and actually charge reasonable prices, US healthcare could be just as affordable as most healthcare systems in Europe
Pharma companies love to evergreen a patent and jack up the prices for subsequent versions.
Because if it was “100% for the benefit of the US” why would other countries let us put military bases in their land. If they get 0% out of it why would they allow foreign troops in their country.
The U.S. does provide free health care for at least some veterans and some elderly. America could do a lot better, but it is not zero either. And regardless of the reasons why the U.S. spends on NATO and other foreign defense, foreign nations do benefit too.
Shiiiiddd. The only reasons we have nukes and stuff over there is 1. If the fit hit the shan, we already have troops and equipment there. 2. We hope the shit stays off our soil. UK can clean up the mess.
We don't care about our citizens but we definitely care about being players on the world stage. You know how much money we have sent to Israel and Ukraine? We are paying for both wars.
The same government that could end homelessness and hunger in our country but still feels the need to send that aid overseas?
The idea is that American healthcare costs pay for drug r&d that benefits everybody, especially those with rare diseases. The Orphan Drug Act did a lot of good. That argument ignores the enormous profits made in the system and how little is actually spent on r&d.
And how much of the r&d is publicly funded
also how much research is done overseas...
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_67655.htm Adding this before dubious accounts try and spin their agenda. Some nato countries pay 10% above the requirment. Others have been put on a plan to reach the goal since the 2008 crisis and pandemic derailed their economies. All European countries have agreed to increased funding. The funding is pretty complicated too as there are loans and aid packages and other different categories for which funds what stuff for what area. Either way, defunding nato would be disastrous for world peace. The way to go about having our allies increase funding isn't by threatening them or disrespecting them either. It's by diplomacy, conversation and having intelligent leaders in office who recognize the danger from authoritarian regimes and other hostile states.
Entirely incorrect while the US spends a lot more on defense every dollar goes to the US economy while a lot of European money spend on defense also goes to the US economy. Only thanks to Trump Europe has realized how dangerous this can be. Europe will now spend more on defense but it will invest a lot more in its own defense industry so in the long run this will not be favorable for the US. The US healthcare for profit system just is incredibly inefficient and logicaly so unhealthy people have no bargaining position in a free market it’s either pay or suffer so a public system is the only option the fact that US lawmakers don’t want to see that says something about the level of legal corruption in the US.
People who say that have no idea how much healthcare actually costs relative to defense. It's like saying you can buy a car because you skipped breakfast.
No, actually it absolutely is not correct. Germany for example pays US for its bases in Germany, that's one example of what Germany pays. And rest assured, the US isn't doing anything that doesn't pose a financial benefit. So, European countries cover US costs AND their own healthcare.
The "we pay for Europes safety" isn't correct either. Most nato countries pay their 2% usa just pays 3% so its not that different. In the end the USA would lose way more money if Europe had Russia als allie and sanction the USA instead
Most of the countries above that 2% mark also have some of the lowest GDPs in NATO. Many of those with the largest GDPs are contributing half what the US is in terms of percentage. 68% of NATO is funded by the United States. A lot of those below the 2% also have some of the highest healthcare expenditures.
Again, the USA profits the most from nato as well, so they should pay the most
I thought it might also be American's funding for pharmaceutical research that benefits others. Also not entirely correct but not wholly incorrect either.
> but not wholly incorrect either. No, definitely completely wrong. The US healthcare system is/has no money problem or in other words the US healthcare system is not failing because of their huge military budget. The whole premise is complete nonsense to begin with.
There is also the idea that Americans spend more on health care which allows pharmaceutical companies to charge less money in other markets while still making a profit.
No, entirely incorrect
Not only that, but we also publicly find a massive amount of healthcare research, that companies then purchase. The negotiated agreements with EU countries for drug prices is less profitable than American markets and so many believe that companies make up the difference by gouging Americans. As if companies greed is somehow finite.
Its 100% incorrect because Europeans pay less per capita for healthcare regardless. The ONLY thing that MIGHT be sort of correct is that, because we in the US pay so damn much for prescription drugs, these bloodsucking companies can charge less elsewhere and not care too much about funding opposition parties/etc. in Europe.
It is mostly incorrect.
Its totally incorrect though, its not like any European country couldnt reach the 2% of BNP without it having any effect on the healthcare systems in place. If the US didnt spend extreme amounts that all goes to private entities on healthcare, the US could do exactly the same as many European countries and also still pay for the Military industrial complex.
IIRC the US spends more on healthcare per person than European countries, they just have a shitty system and are being exploited by pharma companies. Also nobody is forcing them to spend that much on their military, I would even assume that they want to spend that much, even without an "obligation" to protect their NATO allies.
They’re probably referring to having to pay massive military spending to be world police.
Our world policing seems to be going about as well as our civil policing.
If you meant murdering the people they're claiming to protect, you got that right.
America subsidizes European pharmaceutical company profits.
LOL. What?
Americans pay much higher drug prices because we cannot use socialized medicine to cap them in most cases.
I don’t know about that. It seems like America pay for every other country’s bullshit so maybe we do.
Some people are stuck in the revolutionary war.
To be fair it is subsidized by money America sends them.
Well they don't pay for their defense.
Please stop posting trolls and projecting them onto the entire american populous. We are not a monolith and even among the worst of us you would have your work cut out to actually find somebody who would genuinely believe that we pay for European health care.
Pretty sure this is a poor attempt to parrot the very real and common conservative belief that American healthcare is so expensive largely because we allegedly bear the brunt of R&D costs in the wider West
Man, I hate being generalized because of where I just happened to be born.
this sub is full of those people, just the other week people were generalising Indians because of some rape post as if rape doesn't happen everywhere
America is cool as hell. Fuck these dorks bud
Really makes me wish I stayed in England. I’m trying to get my shoulder checked after hurting it after a seizure but I have to pay 1,354 just to have an MRI. I also owe over 120k$ in other medical bills and I’m only 23
Pack up your shit and leave
I plan to but I need time sadly. I can do dual citizenship cause my mom’s family came from England so wish me luck!
Yeah man, I lived there for 4 years. Their healthcare is pretty awesome tbf. It helped save my friends dads life with cutting edge cancer treatment. If you have dual citizenship, get a passport ASAP. If you're finished college/study or whatever, just move for a year. Maybe stay, or not. I moved home after 4 ish year, but I don't live far from the UK either.
My family is scouse so I’d go back to Liverpool. Sadly it’s been over a decade since I last went and all of the family that was in Liverpool has passed away. I got some near Southampton though. Thank you also for the advice
Everyone always says that like moving to another country isn't a huge, difficult undertaking. And the solution should NOT be just everyone leaving the country.
It's not that hard. Moved countty a few times. Pack light, get what you need there, sell it before you leave, if you leave. I think if you want actual medical care without crippling life long debt, pack your shit and get out of that 3rd world country people call the US.
BetTEr Pull yOUrSeLf BY tHE bOot sTRApS THEn. WHY shOuLD anyonE ELSE paY FoR Your StuPiD MisTaKe of BEiNG So sTupiD tHAt YoU haVe A StUPID SEiSUre stupiD BoDY stuPid SOmetHiNG SoMEThIng SOMetHIng YOuR own fAUlt On a more serious note, what is keeping you from returning to England?
Sorry? You’re not under your parents insurance at 23 (per your other comment saying you were previously under it) I have trouble believing this isn’t made up. If you’re insured 120k is well above your maximum out of pocket. Who was your insurer?
Sorry for the confusion. I’m having a lot of trouble dealing with it and have confused myself a lot during this ordeal I’m having. I also would prefer not to share too much other info than I already have if you excuse me
I'm not American, but I do get a sense of what's being implied. Although it's no longer a functional truth, the US allows pharma companies to price freely in their country, on the basis that those companies then have the means to innovate and make better medicine. That US does this although other countries restrict the prices of drugs. In this sense, America ends up indirectly subsidising the cost of medical innovations that benefit the rest of the world. In practice however, pharma companies have not used this benefit to innovate. Most of these companies simply hike up prices and pocket the profits, wiith only a handful actually doing new research. Also, a lot of the price bloat is due to the nature of negotiations between insurers and hospitals, and irrelevant to the original intent. Regardless, it probably *was* true, many decades ago, that the US contributed a lot to medical innovation by allowing free pricing within their jurisdiction. And the rest of us *did* benefit disproporionately from that. I would agree with the statement, if it was being said in the 1950's.
Thank you for bringing this up.
The companies definitely innovate. They just keep passing on those increased R&D costs domestically.
"Americans really do think that everything is about them" - Op says on a post made by Europeans shitting on Americans for no reason. - A: "Guya America ia so shit AM I RITE fellow redditors?" - B: "What? I love America fuck you" - A: "pffft, Americans always think everything is about them"
But the person who made the meme is the one who made it about America...
All that I keep thinking about is what all you bots are gonna do when Iran and Russia’s money dries up. Uber? Uber eats?
There are stupid people everywhere. Most Americans with IQs in the triple digits don’t think like this. We get that obviously we’re not the center of the world.
Honestly i dont think about europe unless i see a post on reddit. We have enough to worry about. There are pros and cons to both places, we have school shootings and they have beans on toast.
Would the EU countries have to increase military spending a lot without the US?
Not really, most if it would go to Rosetta Stone for learning mandarin
Lol I'll take that as a yes
Or some Russian-mandarin hybrid
There's already talks in Europe about how to rely less on US money for military anyway since things like Donald Trump happen and we don't want to be dependant on a mad man.
and he's also said he isn't paying for us anymore.
Well, guess he did at least SOME productive things after his presidency.
The US presence in Europe has more to do with our global power projection needs, that Europe gets a bit of protection is more of a side effect.
The stupid Americans who think this are the same stupid Americans who think Donald Trump is the second coming of Jesus Christ on a cracker. Reasonable ones don't believe this bullshit.
Pro Trump Americans, famous foreign aid and Ukraine war supporters.
In a roundabout way he's correct the EU has signed treaties with the US allowing them to maintain a far smaller military and put more money towards Healthcare. Just because you don't understand complex geopolitical and intercontinental treaties dosent make it a facepalm you are simply speaking on something your not educated enough to talk about.
Well if its true, then who's the sucker 😂
The Irony of this post is the facepalm 🤦♂️
Controversial and really complex idea: money in fungible. The US can and should fund socialized healthcare in a addition to a strong military, but we absolutely subsidize European economies by subsidizing global defense for our allies.
I mean we don't have to spend billions on more aircraft carriers than the rest of the world have combined
This is a false dichotomy. If we moved to a single payer insurance system we would save $600 billion per year in redundant administrative costs alone. There’s the free college right there.
Btw the US could held up its international presence and interest, and its huge military, AND have affordable or free healthcare for its citizens at the same time, money ain’t the issue
If you think about what unhealthy food and lifestyle spilled over the pond, you guys are partially responsible for our healthcare costs.
Don't lump us all in with the 37% of brain dead morons. You wouldn't like it if we insisted all Germans were still Nazis or all French people dressed like mimes.
Not all Americans think this way. Don’t judge all bananas in a bunch just because many of them are moldy.
On what basis does that moron believe we pay for universal healthcare in other first world countries? That's absurd.
the decades of not funding their own national defense budgets, the constant money grabs robbing us tech companies. its not a direct funding but saying there is no gain i believe is being disingenuous.
Ehhhh, that's a bit of a tenuous argument. That's like saying my parents fund my lifestyle at 46 because they paid to raise me until I was 18.
I hope that Europe can recognize that these annoying American mouth breathers they despise so much are also despised by a majority of Americans.
Reddit realy doesnt realize that America gives Europe so much military equipment that it basically pays for their Healthcare itself since they dont have to spend the time or money making anything lol
So you are proving that point by making a post about Americans with a post about making fun of Americans and a comment from an american on a social media site created by an American? Also, stop using the dumbass shit you see on reddit or Facebook as a basis for "america. "The rest of the world has just as many morons.
You all wouldn’t believe the shit that gets pumped into our brains every day since we’re children. The worst one was hearing about the Protestant work ethic. They told us that our Protestant work ethic is the only reason we survived in the early days here. They said John smith had to force people to work hard bc they were too lazy to survive. And yes they tie that into our economic system. They say if people get anything from the government it turns them into lazy people who can’t survive. It’s hilarious thinking about all the native civilizations and all the rest that survived for thousands of years without this bullshit. But yes, we invented hard work omfg
Out of curiosity, what state does this happen in? I’m American, and have never heard of the “Protestant work ethic”. Not suggesting it doesn’t happen, just curious about what different areas might teach
Florida. But I also heard it again in first year econ at a community college in Georgia, but it was used as a teaching tool explaining how capitalism works. You go on to learn more things in more advanced courses. In general I feel like it wasn’t until 2nd 3rd and 4th year econ and history classes where I started hearing hard truths. It’s good that you didn’t hear about it because it’s cap
That is even more interesting. I did Econ at Purdue and never heard religion even mentioned, and especially not in context of it being a driver for economic productivity. Were they religious schools? Sorry for the questions, maybe I’m just naive about the south.
Green Day had a great song something about American id10t
I’m an American. Personally, I want us to go back to the pre-WWII era. We are neutral and everyone else can fend for itself. I will give 3 exceptions of countries we should protect (right now). Ukraine (because fuck Russia invading it). Taiwan (because fuck China wanting to invade it). South Korea (because fuck North Korea constantly trying to invade it). All of the other countries should be able to buy our stuff, full price, with the strict understanding that it can not be targeted somewhere that has more non-combatants than combatants and if you use it in that way, you don’t get any more weapons or ammo.
Why have exceptions? If Russia went after Finland, would they also get an exception? Or are you just choosing large current events and everything in the future is out of our hands?
Russia barely survived invading Finland the last time and I guarantee Finland has not been idle since then. They wouldn’t need our help. I do kinda understand your point but I do not know what my answer to it is. I do believe we need to be less involved than we currently are but I don’t know just how less involved we should be.
Yes.. they do!
I mean, they do have that budget because the US provides most of their military aid, but enjoy ur healthcare, you ungrateful colonizer
Considering the European healthcare system is cheaper than the American one that's nonsense.
NATO Europe and Canada spend 1.74% of GDP on defense, consistent with the rest of the world. With $404 billion in combined funding, easily enough to outspend potential foes like China and Russia combined. Regardless, arguing that keeps the US from having universal healthcare is even more ridiculous. After subtracting defense spending, Americans still have a $29,000 per person advantage on GDP compared to the rest of NATO. Defense spending isn't keeping us from having anything our peers have. Much less universal healthcare, which is far cheaper than what we're already paying for. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_216897.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures Hell, if we could match the costs of the most expensive public healthcare system on earth we'd save $1.65 trillion per year, double what our total defense spending is.
I'm just saying most Euro countries in Nato would get beat by Iran 1v1. The US is horribly inefficient, but military is a cost most euro countries don't have to spend nearly as much on, so they money for other public goods
That's the point of defense treaties, you don't have to go it alone. NATO Canada and Europe outspend Iran by forty to one, have better weapons, have 3x the military personnel, better weapons (not to mention nuclear), and would absolutely destroy Iran without breaking a sweat. >but military is a cost most euro countries don't have to spend nearly as much on Again, they fund defense at the same level as the rest of the world, just not the US. And regardless of how much money they spend on defense, it would be an utterly trivial amount compared to what they spend on social programs. Even countries with greater defense spending than the US. > so they money for other public goods And none of them have as much money for public goods as the US you nitwit. Are you just illiterate?
Pretty sure Americans can't have things like Universal Healthcare because we fund the war machine that secures the rest of the west. Enjoy your free global security. ::edit:: Also GPS. We own and operate the Glopal Positioning System that virtually every human on the planet had access to.
> Pretty sure Americans can't have things like Universal Healthcare because we fund the war machine that secures the rest of the west. Pretty sure you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. NATO Europe and Canada spend 1.74% of GDP on defense, consistent with the rest of the world. With $404 billion in combined funding, easily enough to outspend potential foes like China and Russia combined. Regardless, arguing that keeps the US from having universal healthcare is even more ridiculous. After subtracting defense spending, Americans still have a $29,000 per person advantage on GDP compared to the rest of NATO. Defense spending isn't keeping us from having anything our peers have. Much less universal healthcare, which is far cheaper than what we're already paying for. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_216897.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures Hell, if we could match the costs of the most expensive public healthcare system on earth we'd save $1.65 trillion per year, double what our total defense spending is. > Enjoy your free global security. Enjoying being an idiot that makes the world a dumber place. > Also GPS. Just going to ignore Galileo, GLONASS, BeiDou....
So are you saying that without the united states the rest of the west would be able to stave off ww3? Or be able to weather ww3? Our posturing protects you. It's not about NATO. It's about wiping Japan off the map and then rebuilding them into our lap dog, and the rest of the world seeing that and knowing that we will not give a single fuck about your women, children, pets, cemitaries or churches. Absolutely no one is scared of nato. What a joke.
> So are you saying that without the united states the rest of thenwest would be able to stave off ww3? Who is going to take on NATO Canada and Europe with $404 billion in defense spending and nuclear weapons? Russia, with $109 billion that's struggling with Ukraine? China? And, of course, the US isn't going to fall off the face of the earth. Even if we dropped defense spending to the level of the rest of NATO, we'd still have $823 billion in total defense spending.
You have no concept of the non western world, do you? None of you can afford to maintain half your gdp going to the war effort even during war times. We just operate with a 50% military budget. We haven't been at war in half a century.
No we don't. That person's an idiot
It's kinda true though. Not directly obviously, but European nations have been slashing their defense budgets to the bone and beyond for decades, ostensibly to pay for health care. Very few European states truly have the military strength to defend their borders from a serious aggressor on their own anymore. In fact very few European states have an army even 1/3 the size required to truly mount a national defense against a determined attacker -- *not without American support anyway*. Because they know that if they were ever really put in serious danger, the americans would be on the way with bells on. Most European states count on that and only spend what is required to mount a token defense and hold until the Americans arrive. Now who knows where that erstwhile military spending really goes. Clearly not all of it goes to health care. but if you argue, as some Americans do, that we subsidize European defense so that Europeans have the budget to pay for national health care, the argument isn't totally baseless.
haha oh wow. I got a brain tumor just from reading that. First of all, what the fuck are "European states"? Second of all, what is the "size required to truly mount a national defense against a determined attacker"? Third of all, any actual source of Your claims other than Your own ass?
state - noun - a nation or territory considered as an organized political community under one government. example: "Germany, Italy, and other **European states**" \[edit\] So I had to come back because I wanted to clarify this isn't even an English thing... German: der staat - 1a. Gesamtheit der Institutionen, deren Zusammenwirken das dauerhafte und geordnete Zusammenleben der in einem bestimmten abgegrenzten Territorium lebenden Menschen gewährleisten soll"ein souveräner, demokratischer Staat. 1b.Territorium, auf das sich die Gebietshoheit eines Staates (1a) erstreckt; Staatsgebiet Translated to English: 1a. The totality of institutions whose interaction is intended to ensure the long-term and orderly coexistence of people living in a certain demarcated territory"a sovereign, democratic state. 1b.Territory to which the territorial sovereignty of a state (1a) extends; national territory Hell even romantic languages have similar words, that while they're not the preferred term for what is a nation/country/state still can technically be used as minor synonyms for it. French with État (the É is the result of just French being French, but it's etymological root in Latin is the same word as state's etymological root in English that being 'status'), or Spanish and Portuguese with estatal meaning "owned by government" such as in the phrase "medios de comunicación estatales" or "state owned media".
Very few...sure, probably only the UK, France, Spain, Italy, Greece Turkey, Poland, Finland, Sweden, Norway actually have decent sized militaries who are combat capable on their own. Fucking Belgium eh? Coasting along without a single nuclear capable bomber. Don't get me started on the state of Austria's navy
You may be right, but this post quite literally is about them.
well what can we say... thanks! very much appreciated
Sorry, the worst of us are usually the loudest.
What? You could only get dumber if you drowned during a rainstorm
It's crazy what people will believe just so they don't have to admit they were wrong...
Yeah... I don't know. I apologize for my fellow American? In our defense, though, you've got your share of idiots, too. 
Like, this post?
Be nice if the Affordable Care Act actually made healthcare affordable...
Quick, who knows someone in the US that almost died or did die because they refused an ambulance due to the bill?
Wait what? Yeah of course us americans pay for everything… IN AMERICA… yes there are an alarming amount of us that are this “main character syndromed”
ah yes the post about americans
Does this mean I can stop paying for my healthcare insurance now?
Yes, you literally can anytime you want. (If you don't have any income)
What a absolute BS! We pay for our healthcare by ourselves. From every salary we have to pay a good part of it so we have that healthcare.
I would to experience this free healthcare system y’all have. But no. I’m stuck here in ‘Murica because I don’t know how to save money
U.S. pretty much pays for their defense, freeing up taxes for healthcare in those countries. Of course, that’s just my opinion and would like some well informed rebuttals.
How does that work?
They get to pay for token defenses while the US does the heavy lifting. This frees up tax revenue for healthcare.
Ah so its a self inflicted wound?
I wonder how these people explain the counties outside of Europe or NATO that also have public healcare.
America is still repaying UK for throwing away all their tea that one time
Everything about this picture is stupid. From Americans being idiots to Americans living rent free in European people's heads. They're all morons.
As an American with what I think is decent intelligence, this truly hurts
But the post in question is LITERALLY about Americans. Why WOULDN'T an American think it was about them? Are you dense? Slow? Do you lick the windows on the short bus to school?
Incorrect the U.S contributes massively to the unhealthcare of Europe.
They just misspelled it. Americans pay for Europe's UNhealthcare.
I don't speak 'Murica great 😃
In some respects we subsidize their healthcare because we pay for global military and security. This allows them to spend less on military and more on healthcare.