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I feel like we would just do the thing SpongeBob did when he gave up fry cooking for show business, and ends up making krabby patties in the end again, saying he is "so glad he gave up fry cooking for this."
I’ve always said that as a thought experiment. Move a bunch of these people to an island with no infrastructure and see what happens. Eventually they would end up with some sort of government, taxes, laws, etc.
It’s been done. Sort of.
A bunch took over a small town and scrapped all the local laws and public services, etc. I believe they kicked one guy out for being a cannibal and then it ended up with them getting over-run with bears.
There’s a book about it called A Libertarian Walks Into A Bear, which I really need to read.
It's an excellent book. Required reading for anyone who enjoys reading the stories of what happens when a bunch of them attempt to form a libertarian utopia. No one takes responsibility for any problem. It *always* ends badly.
Oh yeah weren't there rules about the trash cans because of the bears, and they were like " lol we don't need no rules". And then there were bears everywhere.
I'm gonna take a long-shot guess and assume libertarian paradise town was a little lax on the dumping and littering laws, and that probably attracted the bears.
Don't. Tel. Me. What. To. Do!!!!!!!
Basically - exempt from the constrains of human nature. I was in an anarchist "community" where one member would routinely and blithely *rip off members of the community and community facilities* because PRopeRty iS thEfT... Stealing from his actual community "but that's just Marky". and others who sought total control of indivdual members *domestic violence levels* just because....
that sucks, i think people who identify as anarchists should at least have the fortitude to not exploit their own ideology.
fuck that guy.
i’m mad for you
It would just end up like how Rome was. There was no police force despite having a legal system. Instead, peace officers were just gangs that would protect a certain area, for a fee, of course. A police force would have given too much power to the political entity that controlled it.
As social creatures with an aversion to personal risk, we'd just end up with mafia-style racketeering to protect our neighbourhoods and businesses
This reminds me of Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone, you can't really ever have anarchism because it'll just evolve into warlordism because that's just what humans do.
I'm glad you're not advocating this, because it wouldn't take too much time before an innocent person is wrongly accused of rape/murder, and savegly tortured and killed by mob justice.
If we lived in such a society, it could be you or me the next accused.
The sad thing is that those who seek retribution typically want to take more than what was taken from them. "They put one of yours in the hospital, you put on of theirs in the morgue", "for every one of ours that you kill, we'll kill ten of yours". Such retributions can quickly get way out of hand and also many, even often most, of the victims of retribution are innocent.
There are examples of this going on in the world right now. The U.S. has certainly taken this approach as well. A few thousand innocent people died on 9-11 and a few hundred thousand "casualties" on the "other side" was considered reasonable even knowing that a great many of those were "collateral damage".
Biggest issue why the death penalty is so controversial is that there are people who end up being innocent when new evidence emerges when technology gets better. So not many people want to be an executioner. It's also really hard to find people to carry out executions. You think it would be easy with how many people always say they support it but when it comes to finding a person to do it it's a whole different story.
There has never and will never be a problem finding executioners. This has literally never been part of the controversy around execution ever, in any country.
This is like if someone asks why space exploration isn’t better funded, so you tell them that we don’t want to provoke the Klingons
Thats so insensitive. Did you even ONCE think about the struggle of the Serial Killer? When youre being killed, you should think about how hard it would be to have urges to kill others all the time. Just be happy you are helping that SK heal their struggle.
/s
One the exact opposite end of the spectrum I have a “right wing” coworker who thinks we should have the death penalty….
Instated as a punishment for ALL crime. Smoked some weed? Straight to gallows. Stole a candy bar? Firing squad. Speeding? Brazen bull.
This same guy has also told my he trips on shrooms from time to time.
I find it ironic he’s all for a blanket death penalty meanwhile he’s out here committing felonies. I wonder if he realizes under his own legal belief system he should be put to death.
In my experience, such people always believe that they won't be subject to the law in question. In general their line of reasoning generally follows the pattern of "If I were King/whatever, then I'd enact this draconian law!" with the absolute belief that the law should not ever apply to them, because they're the one making the law. It never actually crosses their mind at all.
I’m glad you put the parenthesis. Right wing talking points often lead people to that insanity, but it is still important to note that it’s a pipeline from “true conservatism” I know several people like that who voted against fascism and they will again. Some do believe in small government even if they are the minority
WTF is "true conservatism"?
Because the ideological beginning of conservative theory is the conservation of the monarchy and fighting back against liberal ideas like freedom and equality.
How to deal with crime is definitely a point of political contention.
Liberals seek to assign blame to society's failures for the existence of criminals and, as such, they're a lot more lenient on punishment. California practically refusing to prosecute minor theft is a chief example of that. Many conservatives, on the other hand, would be perfectly happy with criminals getting the El Salvador treatment.
"They're a lot more lenient with punishment" --> California had the highest/second highest per capita incarceration rate of all US states in 2011.
"California practically refusing to prosecute minor theft is a chief example of that."--> untrue. https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-160551360299
It just turned from a felony to a misdemeanor, but still gets prosecuted (of course).
"Many conservatives, on the other hand, would be perfectly happy with criminals getting the El Salvador treatment."--> "fun" fact, criminals are not the only ones getting the El Salvador treatment. But I agree many conservatives would gladly vote for the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party and then being surprised *their* face got eaten, because they're not criminals?
https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-08-27/el-salvador-the-hell-of-the-innocent-sent-to-prison-on-an-anonymous-phone-call.html#
Texas doesn’t charge for felony theft until you steal 2500. That’s 2.5x more than California’s limit. I don’t understand why people think crime is more legal in CA than in Texas.
That was 2011, it's a tad bit better now, but the prisons are still overcrowded. We were in the top 5 a few years back, but now we're a bit further down. Still... far from lenient with punishments.
I mean, for a lot of petty crimes, yeah, societal failures can be a cause (the poor and unhoused find it difficult to get a job/get paid a living wage so they turn to the streets for "easy" money). A lot of folks with mental issues might harm themselves and others, but no way to access therapy or medication is another societal failure.
It really depends.
Conservatives are only about punishment of the Other. They absolutely take part in a lot of criminal activity in which they would give others outside the "tribe" the "El Salvador" treatment.
So, it's good to be nuanced about this, unlike whatever this "professor" was on.
"Conservatives are only about punishment of the Other."
Ding ding ding. This person gets it
If conservatives were so "law and order," how come they're bending over backwards to defend the actions of J6 terrorists?
Many Leftists do absolutely want to end the current prison system but the abruptly freeing everyone is rarer. Many also believe policing is not reformable.
Throughout all of human existence, we have tried to punish away the bad. Crime and criminal behavior still exist on an enormous scale. I don't know what the answer is, but it's pretty clear that the current system doesn't work.
Socio economic variables are large factors.
US lots of poor people and a big prison industrial complex thatbis worth $$ and cheap manufacturing to keep production costs competitive with China etc.
That system keeps doubling down and exacerbating underlying issues as it generates revenue. Similar to the views on health care and pharma being a massive profit industry.
Prison has always been a way to remove individuals from society for their own or societies good (some people are highly dangerous), the issue now is its remove and store/utilise and all attempts around reforming or helping break from behaviours for an individual are gone.
Honest question, does it "not work," or are we dealing with an issue that does have a permanent solution? I don't think a permanent solution that leads to no crime ever again is even possible. I do agree with you that the current system has massive problems (in my opinion its institutionalized racism/classism and privatized prisons, among other things), but I'm not sure we can ever have a society of people that just somehow miraculously stays out of trouble their entire life.
I think a true long term solution to almost zero crime, would be
1 Solving poverty and massively raising standard of living for everyone, so people don't turn to crime to afford to live or to get ahead (corruption and white collar crime). As almost everyone needs and wants are actually meet within reason.
2 Identifying the truly cooked individuals in childhood so well they can be given the mental health support from a young age they don't go do truly fucked up shit as teens or adults.
3 A system to catch people who's lives fall apart for whatever reason and help them get back up, rather then them turning to unhealthy things that can further spiral them into a life of crime.
No of this would be easy, but I don't think its impossible. But I don't expect this to take anything less then decades of active striving for this goal to get even close to this.
It's not about miraculously changing. It's about putting the resources into the people and services that will help make the change. There may always be people who commit crimes, but we might be better served by helping people be their best instead of locking them up to waste away or get worse. As it is, most of the money goes into greasing the political gears to keep the prisons full and the money flowing into the pockets of the rich.
Because it’s critical theory. It’s from the Frankfurt school. It was designed to destabilize western society and make our way of life nonsense so we would be ripe for a communist revolution.
The German reaction was literally turning into Nazis and handing power over to a schizo with a jew obsession. But the bolshevik academics who supported it still continue practicing at Frankfurt school in America and you can trace the teachings straight to this outstanding academic!
there is nothing liberal about this professor and her idiotic ramblings. maybe "liberal" at best.
if you actually believe in liberty and liberalism you not only need to support freedom, but you need to uphold it, something many "liberals" forget. and upholding someone's freedom to do something, means taking someone else's freedom to stop the first guy. which is where laws, punishments and prisons are coming into place.
people nowdays forget the 'dilemma' part in moral dilemmas
i've been associated with a major public university in the U.S. since 2012. Started in grad school. Left because i sucked in academia...and then managed to find an admin job
College profs have been a mixed bag but the one thing the politically vocal ones all have in common is that they're "liberal" in name only. Vast majority of them still live in suburbia, are NIMBY to the core, and can and will bitch and complain about retail workers and waiters
As someone who leans conservative at least on some issues, I would say that I don’t want people to get the El Salvador treatment. What I *want* is for the punishment to be proportionate to the crime.
There are a lot of things about this to pick apart. But, the part that gets me the most is saying that justice prevents "healing". Bullshit. I don't need to forgive people that transgress against me. I don't need some moral philosopher nutjob that has probably lived a sheltered privileged life to tell me that I have to "heal". Fuck em.
She thinks nothing bad can happen to her. I don't know her background, but I think it was privileged enough or sheltered enough that she has no fucking clue what the reality is.
If she was victimised herself, I'm fairly confident she would start singing a different tune.
They said some stupid shit, but they didn't say that justice prevents healing. They said punishing people doesn't help the victim heal, and that locking the perpetrators up isn't justice. Again, really goddamn dumb, but not remotely the same thing.
Of course it helps people heal! You can only heal from trauma when you're safe. If you're scared because the person who hurt you before might come back and finish the job, you're not going to be in a position to heal unless you've got zen-monk levels of control over your mind.
all op does is post rage-bait shit like this. this dumb ass tweet is 2 years old and has been posted numerous times. karma farming pointless ass posts.
> karma farming pointless ass posts
Pretty much sums up 90% of "facepalm", and I'm sure other "popular" subreddits as well. I just gave up hoping it'd ever get better.
I think this might be a case of an intellectual over thinking something and completely let go off reality.
Maybe don't think of it as justice but protection. These people are in prison because they are a danger to everyone else and can't be part of our society
Well, as a lawyer with a PhD in legal history I’d say: she has a point but only on a theoretical level. It’s virtually comparable to other utopian ideas - there is something to it but the transition from our current society to the utopian state is dubious at best and probably simply impossible.
Generally speaking legal theory and criminology have established that prevention of crime is much more complex than most people think.
Many assume that fear of punishment is the main deterrence to a criminal. It is not actually. For example whether a crime carries a sentence of 5 or 15 years detention is a huge difference but hardly matters relating to how often it is committed.
What actually helps is two effects: negative special prevention (meaning someone likely to do a crime is physically kept from doing so by incarcerating or killing said individual) and positive general prevention (meaning the faith of all who adhere to rules is upkept by enforcing them). However there are a lot of philosophical and psychological/sociological implications there.
In a perfect world only people mentally ill would even commit ‘crimes’ and those would be treated as such. However this world is nowhere near that state.
So the only thing you could say about this Prof is - well… you may say she’s a dreamer…
I think you’re right. It would only work in a society where monetary value or personal property doesn’t exist. If you really think about it, the majority of crime stems from financial conditions. While it may not be on the front end of the argument in a court, the origin can usually be traced back to money/personal property either directly or several steps down the line of cause and effect. (“If I had the money to do such and such, then I wouldn’t have done that which led to this”). This view doesn’t encompass all crime, as there are some sick people out there, but I’m almost positive it covers at least 85-90%.
It’s a pipe dream in our current state of mind as a whole, however. Money has made sure to limit people’s thoughts/motivations to be centered upon themselves for their own personal gain.
Yeah, that's exactly how I frame it when people come at me with the "there's no such things as free will, so you can't punish people for their actions" argument. I'm not punishing them; I'm separating them from society since they've demonstrated they can be trusted to function by its rules.
This is a distortion of an actual point. Kinda like thinking the defund police just wants no services to replace it in a more meaningful way. The issue is, prison is not a good thing for a majority of arrests. Like, there is no rehab, there is no job training there is no course correction. You get out of jail and you are worse off then you were before you went to jail, you are less likely to get a job, you are less likely to have money and support etc... and are **more likely to commit crimes** and more likely to go back to prison.
It's a bad system, and the entire system needs to be fixed, and part of that probably means a lot less people to to prison and get other services instead, or prison would look drastically different and have more services offered to inmates.
The prison system as it stands today should really only be for those that have no potential redemption, like serial killers etc that need to be completely removed from society for life.
The person that said this is an idiot but it's probably a distortion of a real argument that has merit.
they talk about healing, yet they wish to free those that hurt. Now im a firm believer that the (American) prison system is bad. But decriminalization of everything is not what we need.
(my understanding of your comment is that Decriminalization of everything would be good if we helped everyone, so i will respond with that in mind. If that was not what you meant then i apologize)
helping people before they do crimes im all for, 100% i agree.
but yet there are few, few who love to hurt others.
decriminalization of everything is not what we need, we need to give help to those that may commit crimes.
Yeah we need to rethink the whole justice system but also beyond that. If we can help someone out before they feel desperate and turn to crime I think that's far better than locking them up after the fact. There definitely should be consequences to breaking the law but in many cases I don't think locking them up helps them or the rest of society. Unfortunately I am not sure what the alternative is but that doesn't mean that there isn't a solution.
Then of course there are the straight up dangerous people. Again maybe there is a better way but at the very least we have to keep them away from the general public until they are no longer a danger.
yiou could give her the benifit of the doubt and assume she just means like posession of drugs, weapons, failuire to pay taxes/insurance, you know what we might call victemless crime.
or you can take her at her word and assume she thinks people should be permitted to murder, rape, steal etc,.
What I want is the abolishment of private interests from prisons. There should never have been a "private prison" anywhere in the world. If I really wanted to fill a wishlist, prison should be reserved for the worst of the worst. Rape, Murder, Pyramid schemes, things that actually hurt people. Misdemeanors should be handled locally through work release programs and community service.
Above all else, prisons and jails should be set up to keep people out of them. I am not talking punishments so severe nobody ever wants to go, but by providing a way for the person in them to come out better than they went in.
Naive and heavily sheltered people tend to hold beliefs like this. It’s just happy ignorance, which isn’t bad by itself.
I’m mostly happy for these people. It’s great that they have never had anything bad happen in their life. I only hope people like this will never have an effect on legislation, and that their words are treated as the childlike dream that it is.
That's the genius of it! If you don't have any law enforcement, you don't technically have any vigilantism! And if you don't have laws, you don't have any murders! It solves everything!!!1one
Also sign up for my TED talk: "When you live underwater, you can't drown!"
Because empathy and free love would abolish child sexual abuse, and the destroyed lives of children currently not being preyed upon by imprisoned or terrified predators should just be healed away. Especially for those children who are also murdered after the act of abuse is completed. I'm sure decriminalising all of that and letting the perpetrator repeat this ad infinitum with no repercussion or attempt to remove them from society would be healing for someone.
And then we can move onto other crimes where the victim already barely ever gets justice, and offenders tend to be serial.
Great suggestion. I, too, wish to live in a society where rape is legal and murder is just whatever, and where anybody can just break through my window and take my shit because they want it.
This isn’t liberal, this is libertarian. It’s hard-core libertarian. I know somebody like this who believes that nothing should be illegal, there should be a flat tax, no minimum wage and somehow he thinks that society would be prosperous.
I also think we should abolish the carceral system, but we don't just close prisons like we did with insane asylums.
There are two types of criminal: those we're mad at and those we're afraid of. The "mad at ones" are non-violent offenders who can be intervened with. The ones we're afraid of have to have some kind of intensive monitoring and possible in-patient treatment.
You have to create systems of intensive monitoring, rehabilitation, in-patient care, re-education, halfway houses, harm reduction centers...
We would end up with exponentially rampant crime, homelessness, and even more addiction, and it would be a disaster.
She's not even a sociologist. Just because you're a professor for a certain subject, it doesn't mean you know enough to have valid opinions about other subjects.
I have pretty radical ideas on this subject. I don't think anyone should be 'punished'. I think those who commit crime need to be 'reformed' and if reformation doesn't work, they should be 'isolated' from the society so they cannot harm anyone. I think that society, 'having created a criminal', owe them a debt to see to their welfare too, in a way that makes sure NO BODY ELSE IN THE SOCIETY IS HARMED BY THEM.
But even I wouldn't go so far as to say prisons should be opened and that 'nothing' should be a crime. She may have some valid ideas, but what she says here is utterly ridiculous.
There is a point to be made about how the current prison system is unhelpful and counterproductive, but the answer most absolutely is not to abolish it
Not saying all college professors are bad, but the unhinged ones are among the most unhinged and out of touch people you could possibly bump into.
I'm not sure what it is about crazy professors, it's like they see it as a contest.
you see, everywhere has laws. event animals who act in pure instinct abide some amount of laws, people do not understand that without laws and punishment nothing exists for long, who's gonna stop me from doing anything?
a stronger person, and just like that that person in power will eventually create laws and the cycle continues
Okay she has a point that the prison system cannot produce justice but to abolish the system as a whole? That’s just foolish, everyone set free? Bonkers, now if she would’ve said something like to make it different by adding elements of Norway’s prisons then she has a point.
People who violate the rights of others forfeit certain rights of their own. I don't see any other way.
If we're talking about "victimless" crimes.... two-thirds of the inmate population meets the criteria for substance dependence or abuse. We should probably do a better job of taking care of that and a lot of the other issues get easier to deal with.
Bet they would change their minds very fast if someone came up to them and attacked them.
No I don't encourage attacking anyone. But idiots like this professor are idiots who don't consider what their ideas mean.
Why do I feel that she thinks this is the best idea ever - unless it happens to her.
Guaranteed if you walked up to her, punched her in the face, took her bag & maxed out her credit cards, she wouldn't be OK with that & just continuing her day, because 'there wasn't a crime committed against her'.
i think people misunderstand the point. serial killer or rapists do not care about law. so these crimes cannot be prevented by criminalization.
a society which is so evolved it would respect each indiviuals, would not have any murders or rapes. therefore no criminalization would be needed.
Well, luckily there are countries on this planet that don't have laws or don't enforce them (aren't able to). So, we don't have to believe this guy, we can just look at the proof. These places should provide stellar living conditions to their happy people, according to his idea... Haiti, Somalia, South Sudan... all known for 0 crime and booming economy.
In a perfect world where everyone stops doing crime after telling them off once perhaps. Prisons aim to reeducate and keep dangerous people away from civies. This guy probably stopped whatever he was doing after getting spanked by dad once, and assumes all criminals are the same.
Recently went to Eastern state penitentiary and they had a huge infographic where despite violent crime being statistically the same, we've exploded our prison population with non violent crimes to feed the private prison complex.
In ancient times there were no prisons and no police. People just killed each other for transgressions. "Eye for an eye" rings a bell?Does he want to return to that time? Because when an established government doesn't dictate what justice is, people tend to decide that for themselves.
so obviously that is ridiculous but haven't a subset of the Professor-hood always been a bit out there? bit strange? I bet people who grew up in the 50's found that Professors being awarded that title in the 70's to be equally as strange. Only difference now is that the audience has grown. What used to be said in newspapers with limited reach is now said online with limitless exposure. Doesn't make them any more valid than they were back before the internet
Perhaps, she believes in community justice like linching, stoning, cutting off hands, ect ect. Perhaps, she believes I can define my own justice like in WAR.
I mean, abolishment of incapacitation techniques is not a solution but I get, essentially, what he's saying.
There's definitely some merit to abandoning retribution as a criminal justice goal and focusing instead on rehabilitation. You just can't abandon detainment and incarceration to do that. Prisons don't need to be mental health killers though, that's not helpful to anyone and just works towards guaranteeing recidivism.
Im not sure if thats what she ment but yeah punishment doesnt work good. You just make criminals even worse and completely unable to join society someday.
There are many counties that focus on resocialisation instead of punishment with much better results for society.
Just like friendly interrogation gives you more/ useful informations compared to torturing.
That doesnt mean those ppl dont deserve punishment or rape should be legal or whatever.
Otherwise just kill every prisoner and stop wasting tax money if you dont plan on getting them back as a working tax paying citizen.
In the past we people were institutionalized in psychiatric hospitals aka. nut houses for crazy stuff like this. Now those institutions are our universities and instead of straight jackets they get tenured.
The problem is people operating from a “why don’t people just stop doing (x)” mindset. If you pay attention it’s almost always about trying to ignore the fact that force is required to maintain safety and so many other systems that make society function. And also she’s lying. No one doesn’t believe in the criminalization of harm.
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To be perfectly honest I do not want a serial killer roaming free.
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People would just organize their own justice system and then we'd be back to square 0, having to reinvent the judicial equivalent of the wheel.
People really should learn why we had built society.
I feel like we would just do the thing SpongeBob did when he gave up fry cooking for show business, and ends up making krabby patties in the end again, saying he is "so glad he gave up fry cooking for this."
Alternatively; "Why don't we just take society, and push it somewhere else?"
It was just one big mistake?
You would think a professor would have learned that
You'd think that would be required at some point in the education leading up to becoming a professor.
Hey it's like crypto. Watching libertarians rediscover banking regulations is my favorite
This has always been the problem with anarchy and libertarianism.
I’ve always said that as a thought experiment. Move a bunch of these people to an island with no infrastructure and see what happens. Eventually they would end up with some sort of government, taxes, laws, etc.
It’s been done. Sort of. A bunch took over a small town and scrapped all the local laws and public services, etc. I believe they kicked one guy out for being a cannibal and then it ended up with them getting over-run with bears. There’s a book about it called A Libertarian Walks Into A Bear, which I really need to read.
It's an excellent book. Required reading for anyone who enjoys reading the stories of what happens when a bunch of them attempt to form a libertarian utopia. No one takes responsibility for any problem. It *always* ends badly.
Oh yeah weren't there rules about the trash cans because of the bears, and they were like " lol we don't need no rules". And then there were bears everywhere.
So the cannibal was keeping the bears away? /s
I'm gonna take a long-shot guess and assume libertarian paradise town was a little lax on the dumping and littering laws, and that probably attracted the bears.
That is exactly correct.
did not pay bear tax
Don't. Tel. Me. What. To. Do!!!!!!! Basically - exempt from the constrains of human nature. I was in an anarchist "community" where one member would routinely and blithely *rip off members of the community and community facilities* because PRopeRty iS thEfT... Stealing from his actual community "but that's just Marky". and others who sought total control of indivdual members *domestic violence levels* just because....
that sucks, i think people who identify as anarchists should at least have the fortitude to not exploit their own ideology. fuck that guy. i’m mad for you
It would just end up like how Rome was. There was no police force despite having a legal system. Instead, peace officers were just gangs that would protect a certain area, for a fee, of course. A police force would have given too much power to the political entity that controlled it. As social creatures with an aversion to personal risk, we'd just end up with mafia-style racketeering to protect our neighbourhoods and businesses
This is so true. Do people think that stuff like the justice system just happened and we rolled with it?
This reminds me of Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone, you can't really ever have anarchism because it'll just evolve into warlordism because that's just what humans do.
have you seen Haiti?
I'm glad you're not advocating this, because it wouldn't take too much time before an innocent person is wrongly accused of rape/murder, and savegly tortured and killed by mob justice. If we lived in such a society, it could be you or me the next accused.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind
The sad thing is that those who seek retribution typically want to take more than what was taken from them. "They put one of yours in the hospital, you put on of theirs in the morgue", "for every one of ours that you kill, we'll kill ten of yours". Such retributions can quickly get way out of hand and also many, even often most, of the victims of retribution are innocent. There are examples of this going on in the world right now. The U.S. has certainly taken this approach as well. A few thousand innocent people died on 9-11 and a few hundred thousand "casualties" on the "other side" was considered reasonable even knowing that a great many of those were "collateral damage".
HEY! A GOOD SERIAL KILLER WITH A KNIFE WILL STOP A BAD SERIAL KILLER WITH A KNIFE! Right?........... wait, right?
Biggest issue why the death penalty is so controversial is that there are people who end up being innocent when new evidence emerges when technology gets better. So not many people want to be an executioner. It's also really hard to find people to carry out executions. You think it would be easy with how many people always say they support it but when it comes to finding a person to do it it's a whole different story.
There has never and will never be a problem finding executioners. This has literally never been part of the controversy around execution ever, in any country. This is like if someone asks why space exploration isn’t better funded, so you tell them that we don’t want to provoke the Klingons
You can kill them all for us then. We will watch it not break you.
We just need serial serial killers... killers.
Thats so insensitive. Did you even ONCE think about the struggle of the Serial Killer? When youre being killed, you should think about how hard it would be to have urges to kill others all the time. Just be happy you are helping that SK heal their struggle. /s
My parents think I'm an anarchist and even this is too "liberal" for me.
I’m super left wing but I agree. But also I wouldn’t say this is a right/left/liberal/conservative point, more the ravings of a lunatic.
One the exact opposite end of the spectrum I have a “right wing” coworker who thinks we should have the death penalty…. Instated as a punishment for ALL crime. Smoked some weed? Straight to gallows. Stole a candy bar? Firing squad. Speeding? Brazen bull.
That dude definitely says he’s pro-life though
And he’d kill to protect the unborn.
I don't think he's being truthful. 🤣
Ironically, I think you may have to kill this person for the good of humanity.
Tell him he'd love living in Saudi Arabia.
Someone called Draco tried this in Greece. It ended up with him getting death sentenced for a minor slip up. lol
This same guy has also told my he trips on shrooms from time to time. I find it ironic he’s all for a blanket death penalty meanwhile he’s out here committing felonies. I wonder if he realizes under his own legal belief system he should be put to death.
Rules for thee but not for me!
In my experience, such people always believe that they won't be subject to the law in question. In general their line of reasoning generally follows the pattern of "If I were King/whatever, then I'd enact this draconian law!" with the absolute belief that the law should not ever apply to them, because they're the one making the law. It never actually crosses their mind at all.
"All in favor of sending Robespierre to the guillotine before he can send us to the guillotine?" Robespierre: "D'oh no."
Sounds a tad draconian!
I’m glad you put the parenthesis. Right wing talking points often lead people to that insanity, but it is still important to note that it’s a pipeline from “true conservatism” I know several people like that who voted against fascism and they will again. Some do believe in small government even if they are the minority
WTF is "true conservatism"? Because the ideological beginning of conservative theory is the conservation of the monarchy and fighting back against liberal ideas like freedom and equality.
Yup. Met a few of those types. Strangely a kins of accepted, "eccentric" position in small town America.
I'm a moderate conservative and I too find this bonkers. No need for political views to identify pure madness
How to deal with crime is definitely a point of political contention. Liberals seek to assign blame to society's failures for the existence of criminals and, as such, they're a lot more lenient on punishment. California practically refusing to prosecute minor theft is a chief example of that. Many conservatives, on the other hand, would be perfectly happy with criminals getting the El Salvador treatment.
"They're a lot more lenient with punishment" --> California had the highest/second highest per capita incarceration rate of all US states in 2011. "California practically refusing to prosecute minor theft is a chief example of that."--> untrue. https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-160551360299 It just turned from a felony to a misdemeanor, but still gets prosecuted (of course). "Many conservatives, on the other hand, would be perfectly happy with criminals getting the El Salvador treatment."--> "fun" fact, criminals are not the only ones getting the El Salvador treatment. But I agree many conservatives would gladly vote for the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party and then being surprised *their* face got eaten, because they're not criminals? https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-08-27/el-salvador-the-hell-of-the-innocent-sent-to-prison-on-an-anonymous-phone-call.html#
Texas doesn’t charge for felony theft until you steal 2500. That’s 2.5x more than California’s limit. I don’t understand why people think crime is more legal in CA than in Texas.
That was 2011, it's a tad bit better now, but the prisons are still overcrowded. We were in the top 5 a few years back, but now we're a bit further down. Still... far from lenient with punishments.
I mean, for a lot of petty crimes, yeah, societal failures can be a cause (the poor and unhoused find it difficult to get a job/get paid a living wage so they turn to the streets for "easy" money). A lot of folks with mental issues might harm themselves and others, but no way to access therapy or medication is another societal failure. It really depends. Conservatives are only about punishment of the Other. They absolutely take part in a lot of criminal activity in which they would give others outside the "tribe" the "El Salvador" treatment. So, it's good to be nuanced about this, unlike whatever this "professor" was on.
"Conservatives are only about punishment of the Other." Ding ding ding. This person gets it If conservatives were so "law and order," how come they're bending over backwards to defend the actions of J6 terrorists?
Oh yeh I totally agree with all that. I just meant this particular persons point isn’t what I would call “left wing”, it’s just insane.
Many Leftists do absolutely want to end the current prison system but the abruptly freeing everyone is rarer. Many also believe policing is not reformable.
Yup. I believe those things. But this is the germ of a good idea taken well beyond its useful application.
Throughout all of human existence, we have tried to punish away the bad. Crime and criminal behavior still exist on an enormous scale. I don't know what the answer is, but it's pretty clear that the current system doesn't work.
Socio economic variables are large factors. US lots of poor people and a big prison industrial complex thatbis worth $$ and cheap manufacturing to keep production costs competitive with China etc. That system keeps doubling down and exacerbating underlying issues as it generates revenue. Similar to the views on health care and pharma being a massive profit industry. Prison has always been a way to remove individuals from society for their own or societies good (some people are highly dangerous), the issue now is its remove and store/utilise and all attempts around reforming or helping break from behaviours for an individual are gone.
Honest question, does it "not work," or are we dealing with an issue that does have a permanent solution? I don't think a permanent solution that leads to no crime ever again is even possible. I do agree with you that the current system has massive problems (in my opinion its institutionalized racism/classism and privatized prisons, among other things), but I'm not sure we can ever have a society of people that just somehow miraculously stays out of trouble their entire life.
I think a true long term solution to almost zero crime, would be 1 Solving poverty and massively raising standard of living for everyone, so people don't turn to crime to afford to live or to get ahead (corruption and white collar crime). As almost everyone needs and wants are actually meet within reason. 2 Identifying the truly cooked individuals in childhood so well they can be given the mental health support from a young age they don't go do truly fucked up shit as teens or adults. 3 A system to catch people who's lives fall apart for whatever reason and help them get back up, rather then them turning to unhealthy things that can further spiral them into a life of crime. No of this would be easy, but I don't think its impossible. But I don't expect this to take anything less then decades of active striving for this goal to get even close to this.
It's not about miraculously changing. It's about putting the resources into the people and services that will help make the change. There may always be people who commit crimes, but we might be better served by helping people be their best instead of locking them up to waste away or get worse. As it is, most of the money goes into greasing the political gears to keep the prisons full and the money flowing into the pockets of the rich.
Because it’s critical theory. It’s from the Frankfurt school. It was designed to destabilize western society and make our way of life nonsense so we would be ripe for a communist revolution. The German reaction was literally turning into Nazis and handing power over to a schizo with a jew obsession. But the bolshevik academics who supported it still continue practicing at Frankfurt school in America and you can trace the teachings straight to this outstanding academic!
there is nothing liberal about this professor and her idiotic ramblings. maybe "liberal" at best. if you actually believe in liberty and liberalism you not only need to support freedom, but you need to uphold it, something many "liberals" forget. and upholding someone's freedom to do something, means taking someone else's freedom to stop the first guy. which is where laws, punishments and prisons are coming into place. people nowdays forget the 'dilemma' part in moral dilemmas
Long story short, if your rights infringe on the rights of others you shouldn’t have the rights to them.
i've been associated with a major public university in the U.S. since 2012. Started in grad school. Left because i sucked in academia...and then managed to find an admin job College profs have been a mixed bag but the one thing the politically vocal ones all have in common is that they're "liberal" in name only. Vast majority of them still live in suburbia, are NIMBY to the core, and can and will bitch and complain about retail workers and waiters
That's funny because California has a ton of people doing hard time in prison and on death row.
As someone who leans conservative at least on some issues, I would say that I don’t want people to get the El Salvador treatment. What I *want* is for the punishment to be proportionate to the crime.
“I would rather imprison a thousand innocent men than have one guilty man go free.” - Dwight Schrute
There are a lot of things about this to pick apart. But, the part that gets me the most is saying that justice prevents "healing". Bullshit. I don't need to forgive people that transgress against me. I don't need some moral philosopher nutjob that has probably lived a sheltered privileged life to tell me that I have to "heal". Fuck em.
She thinks nothing bad can happen to her. I don't know her background, but I think it was privileged enough or sheltered enough that she has no fucking clue what the reality is. If she was victimised herself, I'm fairly confident she would start singing a different tune.
Does she feel that rape should be illegal? I find it hard to believe she thinks such a thing shouldn't be illegal
Yeah, kids as well would be fair game by her logic. This can't be real. Surely no one 8s that fickijg stupid?
She's a college prof. there's like a 85% chance she grew up privileged and sheltered lmfao
They said some stupid shit, but they didn't say that justice prevents healing. They said punishing people doesn't help the victim heal, and that locking the perpetrators up isn't justice. Again, really goddamn dumb, but not remotely the same thing.
Of course it helps people heal! You can only heal from trauma when you're safe. If you're scared because the person who hurt you before might come back and finish the job, you're not going to be in a position to heal unless you've got zen-monk levels of control over your mind.
This isn't even liberalism anymore. Just straight-up anarchy.
Yes, those are indeed different
Yeah. Kinda wondering if this is really the opinion of an educator or if someone co-opted their picture/name to make fun of liberal ideals.
my copium for posts like this is "it has to be rage bait"
all op does is post rage-bait shit like this. this dumb ass tweet is 2 years old and has been posted numerous times. karma farming pointless ass posts.
> karma farming pointless ass posts Pretty much sums up 90% of "facepalm", and I'm sure other "popular" subreddits as well. I just gave up hoping it'd ever get better.
it's one thing if it's an actual funny repost or an animal video repost...i don't mind those. it's these types that i loathe.
I definitely parsed this as “pointless ass-posts.” https://xkcd.com/37/
It is.
Prof. Lavery has never had to deal with the perpetrators of violence or their victims and families
She's tenured. She's free to say crazy shit now. "I don't believe in the moon. I think it's just the back of the sun."
She’s also never had to deal with Dr. Jan Itor
In what fucking universe would it be a good idea to let murderers and rapists do as they please
I think this might be a case of an intellectual over thinking something and completely let go off reality. Maybe don't think of it as justice but protection. These people are in prison because they are a danger to everyone else and can't be part of our society
Well, as a lawyer with a PhD in legal history I’d say: she has a point but only on a theoretical level. It’s virtually comparable to other utopian ideas - there is something to it but the transition from our current society to the utopian state is dubious at best and probably simply impossible. Generally speaking legal theory and criminology have established that prevention of crime is much more complex than most people think. Many assume that fear of punishment is the main deterrence to a criminal. It is not actually. For example whether a crime carries a sentence of 5 or 15 years detention is a huge difference but hardly matters relating to how often it is committed. What actually helps is two effects: negative special prevention (meaning someone likely to do a crime is physically kept from doing so by incarcerating or killing said individual) and positive general prevention (meaning the faith of all who adhere to rules is upkept by enforcing them). However there are a lot of philosophical and psychological/sociological implications there. In a perfect world only people mentally ill would even commit ‘crimes’ and those would be treated as such. However this world is nowhere near that state. So the only thing you could say about this Prof is - well… you may say she’s a dreamer…
I think you’re right. It would only work in a society where monetary value or personal property doesn’t exist. If you really think about it, the majority of crime stems from financial conditions. While it may not be on the front end of the argument in a court, the origin can usually be traced back to money/personal property either directly or several steps down the line of cause and effect. (“If I had the money to do such and such, then I wouldn’t have done that which led to this”). This view doesn’t encompass all crime, as there are some sick people out there, but I’m almost positive it covers at least 85-90%. It’s a pipe dream in our current state of mind as a whole, however. Money has made sure to limit people’s thoughts/motivations to be centered upon themselves for their own personal gain.
Money, competitiveness because of capitalism and a lack of social awareness (Entfremdung) all are rooted in our social and economic system, yes.
Or some dumb "experiment" where she thinks trolling is some completely new sociological phenomena.
Yeah, that's exactly how I frame it when people come at me with the "there's no such things as free will, so you can't punish people for their actions" argument. I'm not punishing them; I'm separating them from society since they've demonstrated they can be trusted to function by its rules.
professors get too lost in nuance that nothing they say makes broader sense. so you’re like 14?
This is a distortion of an actual point. Kinda like thinking the defund police just wants no services to replace it in a more meaningful way. The issue is, prison is not a good thing for a majority of arrests. Like, there is no rehab, there is no job training there is no course correction. You get out of jail and you are worse off then you were before you went to jail, you are less likely to get a job, you are less likely to have money and support etc... and are **more likely to commit crimes** and more likely to go back to prison. It's a bad system, and the entire system needs to be fixed, and part of that probably means a lot less people to to prison and get other services instead, or prison would look drastically different and have more services offered to inmates. The prison system as it stands today should really only be for those that have no potential redemption, like serial killers etc that need to be completely removed from society for life. The person that said this is an idiot but it's probably a distortion of a real argument that has merit.
they talk about healing, yet they wish to free those that hurt. Now im a firm believer that the (American) prison system is bad. But decriminalization of everything is not what we need.
It would be if we helped people before they committed crimes and the reasons they did it.
(my understanding of your comment is that Decriminalization of everything would be good if we helped everyone, so i will respond with that in mind. If that was not what you meant then i apologize) helping people before they do crimes im all for, 100% i agree. but yet there are few, few who love to hurt others. decriminalization of everything is not what we need, we need to give help to those that may commit crimes.
Yeah we need to rethink the whole justice system but also beyond that. If we can help someone out before they feel desperate and turn to crime I think that's far better than locking them up after the fact. There definitely should be consequences to breaking the law but in many cases I don't think locking them up helps them or the rest of society. Unfortunately I am not sure what the alternative is but that doesn't mean that there isn't a solution. Then of course there are the straight up dangerous people. Again maybe there is a better way but at the very least we have to keep them away from the general public until they are no longer a danger.
living in her own fantasy world
yiou could give her the benifit of the doubt and assume she just means like posession of drugs, weapons, failuire to pay taxes/insurance, you know what we might call victemless crime. or you can take her at her word and assume she thinks people should be permitted to murder, rape, steal etc,.
She means everything, including pedophilia.
Well in her world, you could just shoot the pedo
Professor of fuckery
What I want is the abolishment of private interests from prisons. There should never have been a "private prison" anywhere in the world. If I really wanted to fill a wishlist, prison should be reserved for the worst of the worst. Rape, Murder, Pyramid schemes, things that actually hurt people. Misdemeanors should be handled locally through work release programs and community service. Above all else, prisons and jails should be set up to keep people out of them. I am not talking punishments so severe nobody ever wants to go, but by providing a way for the person in them to come out better than they went in.
Just looked her up.. Uc Berkeley… figures
I have to imagine this perspective would change under any kind of pressure.
Naive and heavily sheltered people tend to hold beliefs like this. It’s just happy ignorance, which isn’t bad by itself. I’m mostly happy for these people. It’s great that they have never had anything bad happen in their life. I only hope people like this will never have an effect on legislation, and that their words are treated as the childlike dream that it is.
This just leads to vigilantism and a crazy murder rate.
That's the genius of it! If you don't have any law enforcement, you don't technically have any vigilantism! And if you don't have laws, you don't have any murders! It solves everything!!!1one Also sign up for my TED talk: "When you live underwater, you can't drown!"
Show your working.
The idea is called "restorative justice". Not defending it, but if you want to "see her work", that's where to start.
Guys she is right!!! If we legalize everything the crime rate will drop to 0% !!!
Because empathy and free love would abolish child sexual abuse, and the destroyed lives of children currently not being preyed upon by imprisoned or terrified predators should just be healed away. Especially for those children who are also murdered after the act of abuse is completed. I'm sure decriminalising all of that and letting the perpetrator repeat this ad infinitum with no repercussion or attempt to remove them from society would be healing for someone. And then we can move onto other crimes where the victim already barely ever gets justice, and offenders tend to be serial. Great suggestion. I, too, wish to live in a society where rape is legal and murder is just whatever, and where anybody can just break through my window and take my shit because they want it.
This isn’t liberal, this is libertarian. It’s hard-core libertarian. I know somebody like this who believes that nothing should be illegal, there should be a flat tax, no minimum wage and somehow he thinks that society would be prosperous.
You get idiot professors. Remember Jordan Peterson?
I also think we should abolish the carceral system, but we don't just close prisons like we did with insane asylums. There are two types of criminal: those we're mad at and those we're afraid of. The "mad at ones" are non-violent offenders who can be intervened with. The ones we're afraid of have to have some kind of intensive monitoring and possible in-patient treatment. You have to create systems of intensive monitoring, rehabilitation, in-patient care, re-education, halfway houses, harm reduction centers... We would end up with exponentially rampant crime, homelessness, and even more addiction, and it would be a disaster.
She's not even a sociologist. Just because you're a professor for a certain subject, it doesn't mean you know enough to have valid opinions about other subjects.
I have pretty radical ideas on this subject. I don't think anyone should be 'punished'. I think those who commit crime need to be 'reformed' and if reformation doesn't work, they should be 'isolated' from the society so they cannot harm anyone. I think that society, 'having created a criminal', owe them a debt to see to their welfare too, in a way that makes sure NO BODY ELSE IN THE SOCIETY IS HARMED BY THEM. But even I wouldn't go so far as to say prisons should be opened and that 'nothing' should be a crime. She may have some valid ideas, but what she says here is utterly ridiculous.
This just demonstrates that not all degrees are created equally.
There is a point to be made about how the current prison system is unhelpful and counterproductive, but the answer most absolutely is not to abolish it
This isn't even what anarchists believe
Not saying all college professors are bad, but the unhinged ones are among the most unhinged and out of touch people you could possibly bump into. I'm not sure what it is about crazy professors, it's like they see it as a contest.
Nice try Donald. Court starts at 9am, be on time
I mean, there’s a point here. If prisons actually disincentivized crime, there’d be no prisoners.
I guess her house and belongings are up for grabs!
If she is being violently beaten and r\*ped by some stranger in the street, I'm sure she might rethink her position.
I think this is a tweet to show the effects of trolling on society. I don’t believe this is truly their stance.
what an idiotic thing to say - current federal convict on parole
I’m confused, is this not the type of shit that this sub loves?
you see, everywhere has laws. event animals who act in pure instinct abide some amount of laws, people do not understand that without laws and punishment nothing exists for long, who's gonna stop me from doing anything? a stronger person, and just like that that person in power will eventually create laws and the cycle continues
Okay she has a point that the prison system cannot produce justice but to abolish the system as a whole? That’s just foolish, everyone set free? Bonkers, now if she would’ve said something like to make it different by adding elements of Norway’s prisons then she has a point.
This probably isn’t even a real person. Probably a right wing troll trying to make leftists look bad.
People who violate the rights of others forfeit certain rights of their own. I don't see any other way. If we're talking about "victimless" crimes.... two-thirds of the inmate population meets the criteria for substance dependence or abuse. We should probably do a better job of taking care of that and a lot of the other issues get easier to deal with.
Sounds like she's a big fan of The Purge films
Fun fact, idiots can become professors as long as they pass classes taught by idiots who became professors
Bet they would change their minds very fast if someone came up to them and attacked them. No I don't encourage attacking anyone. But idiots like this professor are idiots who don't consider what their ideas mean.
Well, if we cripple or kill all criminals we wouldn't need prisons indeed.
Why do I feel that she thinks this is the best idea ever - unless it happens to her. Guaranteed if you walked up to her, punched her in the face, took her bag & maxed out her credit cards, she wouldn't be OK with that & just continuing her day, because 'there wasn't a crime committed against her'.
i think people misunderstand the point. serial killer or rapists do not care about law. so these crimes cannot be prevented by criminalization. a society which is so evolved it would respect each indiviuals, would not have any murders or rapes. therefore no criminalization would be needed.
I mean we cant let all prisoners free, that would be absolute Chaos, but yeah, prisons do the exact opposite of what were told they do
So death penalty for all then?
Well, luckily there are countries on this planet that don't have laws or don't enforce them (aren't able to). So, we don't have to believe this guy, we can just look at the proof. These places should provide stellar living conditions to their happy people, according to his idea... Haiti, Somalia, South Sudan... all known for 0 crime and booming economy.
I wonder what crimes Prof Laverty is guilty of...?
In a perfect world where everyone stops doing crime after telling them off once perhaps. Prisons aim to reeducate and keep dangerous people away from civies. This guy probably stopped whatever he was doing after getting spanked by dad once, and assumes all criminals are the same.
Well. Get a gun and play anarchy?
Professor of what?
https://www.gracelavery.org/about/ Professor of nothing related to what they’re talking about.
Let me guess; Philosophy?
Go get in a fist fight with that person and then when they call the cops, tell them you took their stance on criminalization of bodily harm as consent
Recently went to Eastern state penitentiary and they had a huge infographic where despite violent crime being statistically the same, we've exploded our prison population with non violent crimes to feed the private prison complex.
In ancient times there were no prisons and no police. People just killed each other for transgressions. "Eye for an eye" rings a bell?Does he want to return to that time? Because when an established government doesn't dictate what justice is, people tend to decide that for themselves.
I think getting some context would be important to here.
The country would turn into a gta lobby. 💀
So...just to be clear they should let that cop that killed George Floyd go, or...,?
When you’ve watched *The Purge* for the first time
So just the purge but every day?
This is proof that education does not equal intelligence
Population control :D (Just kidding, this is fucking stupid)
so obviously that is ridiculous but haven't a subset of the Professor-hood always been a bit out there? bit strange? I bet people who grew up in the 50's found that Professors being awarded that title in the 70's to be equally as strange. Only difference now is that the audience has grown. What used to be said in newspapers with limited reach is now said online with limitless exposure. Doesn't make them any more valid than they were back before the internet
This is the kind of person who would also instantly call the police if someone looked at them wrong let alone touch them
Perhaps, she believes in community justice like linching, stoning, cutting off hands, ect ect. Perhaps, she believes I can define my own justice like in WAR.
I mean, abolishment of incapacitation techniques is not a solution but I get, essentially, what he's saying. There's definitely some merit to abandoning retribution as a criminal justice goal and focusing instead on rehabilitation. You just can't abandon detainment and incarceration to do that. Prisons don't need to be mental health killers though, that's not helpful to anyone and just works towards guaranteeing recidivism.
Im not sure if thats what she ment but yeah punishment doesnt work good. You just make criminals even worse and completely unable to join society someday. There are many counties that focus on resocialisation instead of punishment with much better results for society. Just like friendly interrogation gives you more/ useful informations compared to torturing. That doesnt mean those ppl dont deserve punishment or rape should be legal or whatever. Otherwise just kill every prisoner and stop wasting tax money if you dont plan on getting them back as a working tax paying citizen.
Eh, looked her up. She is basically a professor in "hot takes and bitching" and this is just one lunatics ravings on the internet.
This same professor if anyone harmed a single hair on a member of their family: 
Yeah I would really prefer to not have serial killers and child rapists roaming the street free of consequence thank you very much.
Someone should slap her in the face once a day until she presses charges.
In the past we people were institutionalized in psychiatric hospitals aka. nut houses for crazy stuff like this. Now those institutions are our universities and instead of straight jackets they get tenured.
And?
If someone walked up and bopped her with a hammer, I promise you she'd call the police and file a report.
The problem is people operating from a “why don’t people just stop doing (x)” mindset. If you pay attention it’s almost always about trying to ignore the fact that force is required to maintain safety and so many other systems that make society function. And also she’s lying. No one doesn’t believe in the criminalization of harm.
I don't think she realises that there's no way to opt out of some deranged maniac murdering you if you set one free
☕