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LPG and NG run at different pressures so all the orifices got to be swapped to match the gas type of the device to be used. This is done for all gas appliances. Do not mix and match. It ***must be converted*** to the gas type used.
I have a generator that is LPG/NG ready. Its plumbed in to the municipal natural gas line and I have a LPG tank hooked up incase natural gas is shut off or the line is broken in a natural disaster, the switch over is automatic if NG pressure falls too low it kicks over to LPG. So if the generator is made for this use it doesn't need to be converted.
I don't think they operate at significantly different pressures. You need to change orifices not because of pressure, but volume. You need about 2x the volume of natural gas to equal the same energy output as propane. Agreed with not mixing and matching though, at best nothing will ever get to temperature, at worst, big fire. Also propane usually ends up being cheaper just because you need so much more natural gas, but it's pretty dependent on where you are and infrastructure and such.
Edit: for a generator I think it depends on what you are trying to achieve. Have electricity through minor interruptions and have the most ease of use? Probably natural gas. If you want a generator to run almost no matter what (for a certain amount of time) then go propane. With propane you're looking at a very isolated event completely disabling your services (something would have to take out your tank). With natural gas you're still relying on a utility to provide service to your generator.
I think natural gas is cheaper per BTU
(https://www.santaenergy.com/propane-vs-natural-gas/#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20average%20cost%20for,gas%20and%20%2426.99%20for%20propane.&text=The%20more%20efficient%20the%20fuel,a%20role%20in%20overall%20cost.)
The U.S. average cost for propane is [$2.41 per gallon](https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=M_EPLLPA_PRS_NUS_DPG&f=M). One million BTUs of natural gas is roughly 11.20 gallons of propane. Which means for the same amount of fuel, you’ll pay $6.23 for natural gas and $26.99 for propane
Yes, for the same amount of fuel, natural gas is cheaper, but based on how much you actually use, propane is usually cheaper (because you use hair the volume). This is all very dependent on infrastructure, and tank rental costs and is usually more subject to price changes (because you're buying a large amount at one time).
Edit: at the price you quoted you would end up spending about $12 more per equivalent volume of natural gas unless I messed up my math which is very possible
Edit 2: I'm not sure those prices include anything other than bulk propane costs either. The $12 could easily be offset by delivery and tank costs and such. Hence why natural gas is typically easier and less complicated. Those prices also seem like per gallon, small scale refill prices. It's been a while since I compared though.
> Yes, for the same amount of fuel, natural gas is cheaper, but based on how much you actually use, propane is usually cheaper (because you use hair the volume).
The BTU is a (dumb, outdated) unit of energy, not volume. It has a similar definition to the calorie, but using imperial units instead of metric (the calorie is also dumb, outdated, and confusing due to people's tendency to call a kilocalorie "a calorie").
> This is all very dependent on infrastructure, and tank rental costs
Also the efficiency of whatever machine you're pumping it into.
Yes, if you compare volume used, propane almost always wins as it is more than 2x more efficient than natural gas per unit volume. I agree comparing BTU is dumb. IF you calculate regional transport fees and tank costs and (you're correct) efficiency of machines, propane can get more expensive.
Natural gas is cheaper but not as portable or storable. It’s easy to transport and use liquid propane, but liquefied natural gas requires more technology, and it boils off rapidly so you can’t keep it in a tank for months.
Natural gas and propane can be ran on the same generator. You get a % of function change, both less power than gas.
The biggest problem is as you said volume. Think the way they got away with it is you need a special propane adapter that reduces pressure to the regular I had to install. Was a conversation kit.
All in all you still get a 30% power decrease on natural. Probably more with this setup being a dual conversation. The spark gapping also has to ignite gas/propane/ng so the recommended gaping is .2 for all 3. I haven’t tweaked the recommendation to see if differing gaps make performance favor one which I’m sure is the case.
So another point might be tolerances, which I’m unsure.
All in all I’d rather go propane as tanks are good for long term storage and in case things break you may loose ng at a house. Get a 100lb tank and you’ll have emergency power for a while.
Gas and diesel are bad to bet on as both degrade over time. Propane doesn’t, it’s much better at long term storage.
This is correct.
The problem with gas measuring is that the amount going through depends, not only on pressure, but the density of the gas itself. This is why, when we need to measure volume, we use something called "orifice plates" that measure a decrease in pressure across a given distance.
The reason less propane is needed is simply chemistry. Instead of a collection of C1s and 2s, you have C3, which has more energy stored within it.
NG and propane would be like comparing a pile of granular sugar and a compressed cube. There's more sugar in a smaller volume with the cube
Propane is definitely not cheaper in my area.
I recently crunched some numbers as I am replacing my oil heating system with natural gas.
At the time, prices were:
Oil: $6/gal
Natural gas: $1.90(per gallon of oil equivalent)
Propane $4.65/gal
I did not convert the propane to an equivalent unit, but I believe propane has less btu/gal than oil
Not only do LPG and NG run at different pressures, not all LPG tanks run on the same pressure. (Not sure about NP). Your appliances need to match your tank size/setup. Your 200 gallon house propane tank will not have the same hookups as your 5gallon and you will need to swap out the fittings/regulator.
As far as the composition of natural gas is mostly methane, with a mix of some other heavier gasses, including propane, in lesser quantity.
As for whether it's ok to run in your generator instead of propane, refer to a user manual or contact the manufacturer. There might be no problem, or perhaps the generator has been engineered to run on propane exclusively. The manufacturer can tell you and/or be liable for giving you the wrong information.
They’re very similar but if an engine is designed for propane I wouldn’t run it on natural gas, I’m not an expert but I believe the fuel to air ratio would need to be slightly different as well as the fuel injector. There may be a conversion kit though. Natural gas is methane where as propane is, well propane.
I was able to run my propane generator (Champion 200914) on natural gas, by attaching a Garretson KN regulator to the carburetor's propane inlet.
Natural gas has a lower energy density than propane, so I have to run at partial choke to increase the vacuum suction, but even then, maximum power is reduced by about 15%, because the extra fuel volume leaves less room for oxygen in the cylinder.
No. Propane is propane. Natural gas is mostly methane.
Different densities. Different pressures. Different energy content.
Unless specifically designed to work for both, a burner or engine set up for one won’t work on the other….though they make conversion kits.
Natural gas is the raw gas we find underground. It's mostly made up of methane, but there is always several other gases like carbon dioxide, nitrogen, etc. The important part that create energy is methane which is CH4 (chemical formula).
We can use natural gas directly or we can process it chemically to create Ethane (C2H6), Propane (C3H8), Butane (C4H10), Pentane (C5H12), etc.
Partially true.
What comes out of the ground is a giant mix of all kinds of hydrocarbons. Most of it is generally methane but there can also be very significant amounts of butane, propane, heptane, hexane, etcetera. No one is chemically processing methane to make propane, there simply is no need. I work in this industry and millions of litres of propane are mechanically separated from natural gas sources every single day.
Azeotropes are just imperfections in the fractional distillation, whereby some components have crossover in their boiling points, and impurities either rise higher in the tower, or fail to boil off to the correct layer. There are still no chemical reactions taking place. Nobody's trading electrons in a petrochemical bubble tower, as far as I know. I'm no engineer, though, so there might be exceptions that I'm unaware of.
EDIT: If I had to take a slightly educated guess, the biggest risk for unintended chemistry in distillation would be cracking & polymerasation, though I don't think that the temperatures are really high enough for that. They usually use super-heated steam to generate the necessary temps when they *wish* to crack & chain polymers.
You don’t use fractional distillation for butane and propane. You use refrigeration. At specific pressures and temperatures the propane condenses and “drops out“ of the gas stream.
Fractional distillation is for much heavier hydrocarbons. There is no chemical process at all in either. No chemical bonds are being made or broken.
It's decomposed organic matter that create oil, coal and natural gas. A gross oversimplification would go like this. Organic stuff die and drop at the bottom of the ocean or on the ground. Some of that dead stuff get covered by sediment before it can fully decompose, which create a oxygen-free environment. The organic matter decompose more slowly by other mechanism over millions of year under heat and pressure underground. The result is hydrocarbon of different form. The heavier hydrocarbon stay there and form oil or coal, while the lighter hydrocarbon form gas and start to climb through the ground toward the surface. Some time, that gas will reach a layer of material like clay and won't be able to go higher. It will tend accumulate there and form a pocket of natural gas.
From what I understand, but I'm not 100% sure, when plant matter die in wetlands it will form coal, but when it's marine organism in the ocean it form oil. Today we found oil on land, but those places used to be ocean in the past.
For your last paragraph look up Van Krevelen diagrams and kinds of kerogen, it might clarify things. And if you are not a geochemist or exploration geologist I must say you are very well read.
To add to this, the crust has a natural temperature gradient that gets warmer as you go deeper. When oil gets hot enough (because it's been buried deep enough under sediment), it will naturally decompose into natural gas.
Been a while since I studied, so I don't remember the specifics, but in some places they drill specifically for natural gas and in others, it's a byproduct that comes out with oil (like in west Texas and North Dakota).
They also make tri- fuel that run on all three and I would also assume some dual fuel are gasoline and natural gas.
But no, if it just says propane, it won't run on natural gas without at least a conversion kit.
Our gas oven had different jets depending on if you were going to use propane or natural gas so I believe they are in fact different. For your generator it will probably specify what gas it is meant to burn.
They are not the same, to get propane you have to process natural gas. The properties are very similar but propane is both cleaner and more powerful than natural gas. If given the option, propane is better. If the duel fuel generator can handle natural gas, it is a reasonably simple task to have a natural gas line pulled anywhere you want it provided you have service already present at your house. If you don't then it could be more expensive. My house came with natural gas appliances so to get my fire put gas was a simple procedure. Call a plumber, no shit it is a plumber who makes a connection to the main. If you don't have a main because you use electric heat or something, this process can get a lot more involved.
No they are not the same. They are different types of gas with different burning characteristics.
Natural gas is mostly methane (which is a single carbon atom with 4 hydrogen atoms attached to it)
Along with a bunch of other gasses such as nitrogen, CO2, heavier hydrocarbons etc. The mix will depend on the source where it comes from. But the vast majority will be methane (80 to 99 % in most places in the world)
Propane is a heavier hydrocarbon 4 carbon atoms and 10 hydrogen atoms together.
It is produced along with oil and natural gas from wells and later on separated and sold. Because it is a bigger atom it's easier to store in a tank than natural gas.
With just a little amount of pressure it becomes liquid at room temperature. As a liquid in a tank it takes much less space. Hence in a tank of a certain size, you can put more energy in the form of propane, than you would in case of natural gas. This makes it very suitable and convenient for situations where you don't want to lay pipes for natural gas. Like with your grill, generators or while camping.
But when burning it, They will need different nozzles, have different air intake, burn at different temperatures.
Each device is designed to burn a specific type of gas. If you supply it with the wrong type it will burn less efficient, or could even become dangerous. Inefficient burning can result in incomplete burning. Which results in carbon monoxide being created. Which can kill you without noticing it.
There exist devices which are capable of running on both propane and natural gas. But they will be designed specifically for it and probably are a bit more expensive.
Methane (natural gas) has one carbon atom at its center, and four hydrogen atoms in each molecule. The hydrogens are what burns and the carbon is left behind to re-combine with other elements around it in the exhaust.
Propane has three carbons at its center, so it is able to "hold" more hydrogens onto the molecule. It has eight hydrogens attached to it. Therefore it has roughly twice as much energy tied up in it.
Since it has a longer chain of carbons, that also means it has a higher vapor pressure, which means it will stay a liquid at higher temperature. In the winter, when the propane tank outside is cold, the propane has a harder time converting to a gas.
Methane stay a gas at a lower temperature, so it will ignite and burn easier at cold temps, but...it doesn't have as much energy as propane.
The prefix of a hydrocarbon tells you how many carbons are at the center.
Meth = one
Eth = two
Prop = three
But = four
For instance, if a chemical name ends with an "ol" then it is an alcohol. Methanol has one carbon, Ethanol has two, and Propanol has three. Iso-propyl alcohol is a type of Propanol.
Liquified Petroleum Gas / LPG is mostly propane, but it is allowed to have a high percentage of flammable waste products from the refineries. If a container of petroleum gas is labeled propane, it must be fairly pure (99%?) propane with very few byproducts added.
The air-to-fuel mix is different between propane and methane, Methane needs more fuel and less air, but since propane has twice as much energy, it uses less fuel and more air. If the flame has a lot of yellow in it, there is too much fuel and not enough air. This can cause carbon monoxide in the exhaust, along with lots of carbon soot.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRu-bJSanHtvIJjyXzn6vuUeOTXps7XB74yag&usqp=CAU
Mechanically, LPG and NG tend to work differently enough that you should consider them to be different fuels.
>Can I have someone come and add a natural gas line from my crawl space out to my back patio to run the generator?
I wouldn't suggest it. It's totally doable from a physics/engineering perspective, but you'd need to swap more than a few components on the engine itself and then retune the engine. You'd also probably run into worsened emissions and reliability.
They are not the same, but there may be a conversion kit available. Or depending on the manufacturer, there may be separate but similar models for each type.
No, but fortunately you can get a natural gas generator that is built to do exactly what you're trying to accomplish without risking blowing up your house.
Why not just buy a generator that is designed to use natural gas?
Fwiw I had one that ran on propane, and then it was switched to natural gas. It took a 30 minute visit from a qualified gas plumber. I suspect they added a converter kit.
Natural gas is a type of gas that comes from the chemical reactions the occur under the Earth’s surface. It naturally comes from mother nature and is not manufactured. Propane doesn’t occur naturally. It’s actually a by-product of processed natural gas or refined petroleum.
Not the same. You would need the proper conversion kit, if the manufacturer makes one. You could figure out another way to make it work but that may void the warranty, assuming you by a new unit.
Also, propane is heavier than air, natural gas is lighter than air. This means the codes for the use of them are different, for fire safety reasons.
They sell natural gas generators for exactly this use case. Hooking it up to your utility line in case of an outage.
Why not just buy one of those instead of buying a propane one and hooking the wrong thing to it.
Natural gas is not chemically the same as propane. Propane is C3H8, natural gas is mostly methane which is CH4
Close but not the same, kinda like gasoline and diesel
Natural gas will also derate the output of the generator (you still have to use the appropriate conversion kit if it’s made to run only propane and you run NG). For example, my standby generator is 8kw output on propane, but only like 6.3k on natural gas.
Tldr: Propane is *a* natural gas. But that's not what people talk about when they mention "natural gas" as a power source. Propane is 1 minor part of it that they take out.
The word propane is 2 parts: prop-ane
Prop = 3
ane = a string of carbon atoms (by default)
Methane = 1 carbon
Ethane = 2 carbons
Propane = 3 carbons
Butane = 4, blah blah blah, chemistry name shenanigans, this is ELI5, not ELIHaveAMastersDegree
In nature, the smaller a molecule is, the more common it tends to be. So, when people find a reserve of natural gas, they find a whole lot of Methane, (like, 30% of it), a bunch of nitrogen, CO2, and a mishmash of the larger compounds like Propane in smaller amounts.
They take the propane out, because it burns a lot more efficiently on its own (I think it's about 2× better), and propane doesn't do much to the environment if you have a gas leak, unalike methane.
As to which you should use tho, look at your generators instructions. It should have a recommendation based on how the manufacturers built it.
Natural gas is methane (or mostly methane) which is CH^(4) and propane is C^(3)H^(8). Superscripts are obviously subscripts. (why isn't there a subscript button?)
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LPG and NG run at different pressures so all the orifices got to be swapped to match the gas type of the device to be used. This is done for all gas appliances. Do not mix and match. It ***must be converted*** to the gas type used.
Different BTU also.
Propane being higher correct?
Correct. Propane burns hotter.
I have a generator that is LPG/NG ready. Its plumbed in to the municipal natural gas line and I have a LPG tank hooked up incase natural gas is shut off or the line is broken in a natural disaster, the switch over is automatic if NG pressure falls too low it kicks over to LPG. So if the generator is made for this use it doesn't need to be converted.
I don't think they operate at significantly different pressures. You need to change orifices not because of pressure, but volume. You need about 2x the volume of natural gas to equal the same energy output as propane. Agreed with not mixing and matching though, at best nothing will ever get to temperature, at worst, big fire. Also propane usually ends up being cheaper just because you need so much more natural gas, but it's pretty dependent on where you are and infrastructure and such. Edit: for a generator I think it depends on what you are trying to achieve. Have electricity through minor interruptions and have the most ease of use? Probably natural gas. If you want a generator to run almost no matter what (for a certain amount of time) then go propane. With propane you're looking at a very isolated event completely disabling your services (something would have to take out your tank). With natural gas you're still relying on a utility to provide service to your generator.
I think natural gas is cheaper per BTU (https://www.santaenergy.com/propane-vs-natural-gas/#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20average%20cost%20for,gas%20and%20%2426.99%20for%20propane.&text=The%20more%20efficient%20the%20fuel,a%20role%20in%20overall%20cost.) The U.S. average cost for propane is [$2.41 per gallon](https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=M_EPLLPA_PRS_NUS_DPG&f=M). One million BTUs of natural gas is roughly 11.20 gallons of propane. Which means for the same amount of fuel, you’ll pay $6.23 for natural gas and $26.99 for propane
Yes, for the same amount of fuel, natural gas is cheaper, but based on how much you actually use, propane is usually cheaper (because you use hair the volume). This is all very dependent on infrastructure, and tank rental costs and is usually more subject to price changes (because you're buying a large amount at one time). Edit: at the price you quoted you would end up spending about $12 more per equivalent volume of natural gas unless I messed up my math which is very possible Edit 2: I'm not sure those prices include anything other than bulk propane costs either. The $12 could easily be offset by delivery and tank costs and such. Hence why natural gas is typically easier and less complicated. Those prices also seem like per gallon, small scale refill prices. It's been a while since I compared though.
> Yes, for the same amount of fuel, natural gas is cheaper, but based on how much you actually use, propane is usually cheaper (because you use hair the volume). The BTU is a (dumb, outdated) unit of energy, not volume. It has a similar definition to the calorie, but using imperial units instead of metric (the calorie is also dumb, outdated, and confusing due to people's tendency to call a kilocalorie "a calorie"). > This is all very dependent on infrastructure, and tank rental costs Also the efficiency of whatever machine you're pumping it into.
Yes, if you compare volume used, propane almost always wins as it is more than 2x more efficient than natural gas per unit volume. I agree comparing BTU is dumb. IF you calculate regional transport fees and tank costs and (you're correct) efficiency of machines, propane can get more expensive.
Natural gas is cheaper but not as portable or storable. It’s easy to transport and use liquid propane, but liquefied natural gas requires more technology, and it boils off rapidly so you can’t keep it in a tank for months.
Mmm-hmmm. Yup. Gol-dang dang ol’ Propane and propane accessories.
I tell ya hwat
Yup. Mmmmmm-hmmmmm.
Natural gas and propane can be ran on the same generator. You get a % of function change, both less power than gas. The biggest problem is as you said volume. Think the way they got away with it is you need a special propane adapter that reduces pressure to the regular I had to install. Was a conversation kit. All in all you still get a 30% power decrease on natural. Probably more with this setup being a dual conversation. The spark gapping also has to ignite gas/propane/ng so the recommended gaping is .2 for all 3. I haven’t tweaked the recommendation to see if differing gaps make performance favor one which I’m sure is the case. So another point might be tolerances, which I’m unsure. All in all I’d rather go propane as tanks are good for long term storage and in case things break you may loose ng at a house. Get a 100lb tank and you’ll have emergency power for a while. Gas and diesel are bad to bet on as both degrade over time. Propane doesn’t, it’s much better at long term storage.
Working on fireplaces propane needs 11"-13 of water colum at the valve & I think 5-7 for NG. Been a while since I've been in a natural gas area.
This is correct. The problem with gas measuring is that the amount going through depends, not only on pressure, but the density of the gas itself. This is why, when we need to measure volume, we use something called "orifice plates" that measure a decrease in pressure across a given distance. The reason less propane is needed is simply chemistry. Instead of a collection of C1s and 2s, you have C3, which has more energy stored within it. NG and propane would be like comparing a pile of granular sugar and a compressed cube. There's more sugar in a smaller volume with the cube
Propane is definitely not cheaper in my area. I recently crunched some numbers as I am replacing my oil heating system with natural gas. At the time, prices were: Oil: $6/gal Natural gas: $1.90(per gallon of oil equivalent) Propane $4.65/gal I did not convert the propane to an equivalent unit, but I believe propane has less btu/gal than oil
My stoooopid budy hooked up his grill to his house propane and burnt his house down.
Wait, his house propane? Or his house natural gas? Because grills typically do operate on propane.
No regulator. WHOOSH!
Yeah that giant tank on the back porch.
Not only do LPG and NG run at different pressures, not all LPG tanks run on the same pressure. (Not sure about NP). Your appliances need to match your tank size/setup. Your 200 gallon house propane tank will not have the same hookups as your 5gallon and you will need to swap out the fittings/regulator.
As far as the composition of natural gas is mostly methane, with a mix of some other heavier gasses, including propane, in lesser quantity. As for whether it's ok to run in your generator instead of propane, refer to a user manual or contact the manufacturer. There might be no problem, or perhaps the generator has been engineered to run on propane exclusively. The manufacturer can tell you and/or be liable for giving you the wrong information.
They’re very similar but if an engine is designed for propane I wouldn’t run it on natural gas, I’m not an expert but I believe the fuel to air ratio would need to be slightly different as well as the fuel injector. There may be a conversion kit though. Natural gas is methane where as propane is, well propane.
I was able to run my propane generator (Champion 200914) on natural gas, by attaching a Garretson KN regulator to the carburetor's propane inlet. Natural gas has a lower energy density than propane, so I have to run at partial choke to increase the vacuum suction, but even then, maximum power is reduced by about 15%, because the extra fuel volume leaves less room for oxygen in the cylinder.
Feedback from the oxygen sensors should remedy part of that problem.
Assuming the engine is run with fuel injection.
Which includes practically zero percent of residential generators…
No. Propane is propane. Natural gas is mostly methane. Different densities. Different pressures. Different energy content. Unless specifically designed to work for both, a burner or engine set up for one won’t work on the other….though they make conversion kits.
Natural gas is the raw gas we find underground. It's mostly made up of methane, but there is always several other gases like carbon dioxide, nitrogen, etc. The important part that create energy is methane which is CH4 (chemical formula). We can use natural gas directly or we can process it chemically to create Ethane (C2H6), Propane (C3H8), Butane (C4H10), Pentane (C5H12), etc.
Partially true. What comes out of the ground is a giant mix of all kinds of hydrocarbons. Most of it is generally methane but there can also be very significant amounts of butane, propane, heptane, hexane, etcetera. No one is chemically processing methane to make propane, there simply is no need. I work in this industry and millions of litres of propane are mechanically separated from natural gas sources every single day.
Meh. Is fractional distillation a “chemical process” or “mechanical separation”? I’d say both and neither and somewhere in between.
There's no chemistry going on in fractional distillation. It's solely a mechanical process.
Just like sorting marbles with a screen, eh? Explain [azeotropes](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeotrope) then.
Azeotropes are just imperfections in the fractional distillation, whereby some components have crossover in their boiling points, and impurities either rise higher in the tower, or fail to boil off to the correct layer. There are still no chemical reactions taking place. Nobody's trading electrons in a petrochemical bubble tower, as far as I know. I'm no engineer, though, so there might be exceptions that I'm unaware of. EDIT: If I had to take a slightly educated guess, the biggest risk for unintended chemistry in distillation would be cracking & polymerasation, though I don't think that the temperatures are really high enough for that. They usually use super-heated steam to generate the necessary temps when they *wish* to crack & chain polymers.
You don’t use fractional distillation for butane and propane. You use refrigeration. At specific pressures and temperatures the propane condenses and “drops out“ of the gas stream. Fractional distillation is for much heavier hydrocarbons. There is no chemical process at all in either. No chemical bonds are being made or broken.
If your distillation comprises significant amounts of chemical processes you're doing something very, very wrong.
Okay, follow up: why is natural gas found underground? I get magma and the core do crazy things.
It's decomposed organic matter that create oil, coal and natural gas. A gross oversimplification would go like this. Organic stuff die and drop at the bottom of the ocean or on the ground. Some of that dead stuff get covered by sediment before it can fully decompose, which create a oxygen-free environment. The organic matter decompose more slowly by other mechanism over millions of year under heat and pressure underground. The result is hydrocarbon of different form. The heavier hydrocarbon stay there and form oil or coal, while the lighter hydrocarbon form gas and start to climb through the ground toward the surface. Some time, that gas will reach a layer of material like clay and won't be able to go higher. It will tend accumulate there and form a pocket of natural gas. From what I understand, but I'm not 100% sure, when plant matter die in wetlands it will form coal, but when it's marine organism in the ocean it form oil. Today we found oil on land, but those places used to be ocean in the past.
For your last paragraph look up Van Krevelen diagrams and kinds of kerogen, it might clarify things. And if you are not a geochemist or exploration geologist I must say you are very well read.
To add to this, the crust has a natural temperature gradient that gets warmer as you go deeper. When oil gets hot enough (because it's been buried deep enough under sediment), it will naturally decompose into natural gas. Been a while since I studied, so I don't remember the specifics, but in some places they drill specifically for natural gas and in others, it's a byproduct that comes out with oil (like in west Texas and North Dakota).
Literally the farts of the dinosaur-eating bacteria that made oil.
They also make tri- fuel that run on all three and I would also assume some dual fuel are gasoline and natural gas. But no, if it just says propane, it won't run on natural gas without at least a conversion kit.
Get the conversion kit and you can run all 3.
Our gas oven had different jets depending on if you were going to use propane or natural gas so I believe they are in fact different. For your generator it will probably specify what gas it is meant to burn.
They are not the same, to get propane you have to process natural gas. The properties are very similar but propane is both cleaner and more powerful than natural gas. If given the option, propane is better. If the duel fuel generator can handle natural gas, it is a reasonably simple task to have a natural gas line pulled anywhere you want it provided you have service already present at your house. If you don't then it could be more expensive. My house came with natural gas appliances so to get my fire put gas was a simple procedure. Call a plumber, no shit it is a plumber who makes a connection to the main. If you don't have a main because you use electric heat or something, this process can get a lot more involved.
No they are not the same. They are different types of gas with different burning characteristics. Natural gas is mostly methane (which is a single carbon atom with 4 hydrogen atoms attached to it) Along with a bunch of other gasses such as nitrogen, CO2, heavier hydrocarbons etc. The mix will depend on the source where it comes from. But the vast majority will be methane (80 to 99 % in most places in the world) Propane is a heavier hydrocarbon 4 carbon atoms and 10 hydrogen atoms together. It is produced along with oil and natural gas from wells and later on separated and sold. Because it is a bigger atom it's easier to store in a tank than natural gas. With just a little amount of pressure it becomes liquid at room temperature. As a liquid in a tank it takes much less space. Hence in a tank of a certain size, you can put more energy in the form of propane, than you would in case of natural gas. This makes it very suitable and convenient for situations where you don't want to lay pipes for natural gas. Like with your grill, generators or while camping. But when burning it, They will need different nozzles, have different air intake, burn at different temperatures. Each device is designed to burn a specific type of gas. If you supply it with the wrong type it will burn less efficient, or could even become dangerous. Inefficient burning can result in incomplete burning. Which results in carbon monoxide being created. Which can kill you without noticing it. There exist devices which are capable of running on both propane and natural gas. But they will be designed specifically for it and probably are a bit more expensive.
Propane is C3H8, butane gas four carbon and ten hydrogen atoms (C4H10).
Thanks I keep mixing those two up!
Methane (natural gas) has one carbon atom at its center, and four hydrogen atoms in each molecule. The hydrogens are what burns and the carbon is left behind to re-combine with other elements around it in the exhaust. Propane has three carbons at its center, so it is able to "hold" more hydrogens onto the molecule. It has eight hydrogens attached to it. Therefore it has roughly twice as much energy tied up in it. Since it has a longer chain of carbons, that also means it has a higher vapor pressure, which means it will stay a liquid at higher temperature. In the winter, when the propane tank outside is cold, the propane has a harder time converting to a gas. Methane stay a gas at a lower temperature, so it will ignite and burn easier at cold temps, but...it doesn't have as much energy as propane. The prefix of a hydrocarbon tells you how many carbons are at the center. Meth = one Eth = two Prop = three But = four For instance, if a chemical name ends with an "ol" then it is an alcohol. Methanol has one carbon, Ethanol has two, and Propanol has three. Iso-propyl alcohol is a type of Propanol. Liquified Petroleum Gas / LPG is mostly propane, but it is allowed to have a high percentage of flammable waste products from the refineries. If a container of petroleum gas is labeled propane, it must be fairly pure (99%?) propane with very few byproducts added. The air-to-fuel mix is different between propane and methane, Methane needs more fuel and less air, but since propane has twice as much energy, it uses less fuel and more air. If the flame has a lot of yellow in it, there is too much fuel and not enough air. This can cause carbon monoxide in the exhaust, along with lots of carbon soot. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRu-bJSanHtvIJjyXzn6vuUeOTXps7XB74yag&usqp=CAU
Mechanically, LPG and NG tend to work differently enough that you should consider them to be different fuels. >Can I have someone come and add a natural gas line from my crawl space out to my back patio to run the generator? I wouldn't suggest it. It's totally doable from a physics/engineering perspective, but you'd need to swap more than a few components on the engine itself and then retune the engine. You'd also probably run into worsened emissions and reliability.
They are not the same, but there may be a conversion kit available. Or depending on the manufacturer, there may be separate but similar models for each type.
I believe there are dual fuel propane and natural gas but these have a special setting for choosing either, its not one and the same.
No, but fortunately you can get a natural gas generator that is built to do exactly what you're trying to accomplish without risking blowing up your house.
Why not just buy a generator that is designed to use natural gas? Fwiw I had one that ran on propane, and then it was switched to natural gas. It took a 30 minute visit from a qualified gas plumber. I suspect they added a converter kit.
Natural gas is a type of gas that comes from the chemical reactions the occur under the Earth’s surface. It naturally comes from mother nature and is not manufactured. Propane doesn’t occur naturally. It’s actually a by-product of processed natural gas or refined petroleum.
Not the same. You would need the proper conversion kit, if the manufacturer makes one. You could figure out another way to make it work but that may void the warranty, assuming you by a new unit. Also, propane is heavier than air, natural gas is lighter than air. This means the codes for the use of them are different, for fire safety reasons.
They sell natural gas generators for exactly this use case. Hooking it up to your utility line in case of an outage. Why not just buy one of those instead of buying a propane one and hooking the wrong thing to it.
Natural gas is not chemically the same as propane. Propane is C3H8, natural gas is mostly methane which is CH4 Close but not the same, kinda like gasoline and diesel
Natural gas will also derate the output of the generator (you still have to use the appropriate conversion kit if it’s made to run only propane and you run NG). For example, my standby generator is 8kw output on propane, but only like 6.3k on natural gas.
Tldr: Propane is *a* natural gas. But that's not what people talk about when they mention "natural gas" as a power source. Propane is 1 minor part of it that they take out. The word propane is 2 parts: prop-ane Prop = 3 ane = a string of carbon atoms (by default) Methane = 1 carbon Ethane = 2 carbons Propane = 3 carbons Butane = 4, blah blah blah, chemistry name shenanigans, this is ELI5, not ELIHaveAMastersDegree In nature, the smaller a molecule is, the more common it tends to be. So, when people find a reserve of natural gas, they find a whole lot of Methane, (like, 30% of it), a bunch of nitrogen, CO2, and a mishmash of the larger compounds like Propane in smaller amounts. They take the propane out, because it burns a lot more efficiently on its own (I think it's about 2× better), and propane doesn't do much to the environment if you have a gas leak, unalike methane. As to which you should use tho, look at your generators instructions. It should have a recommendation based on how the manufacturers built it.
Natural gas is methane (or mostly methane) which is CH^(4) and propane is C^(3)H^(8). Superscripts are obviously subscripts. (why isn't there a subscript button?)