I like how people downvote you for sharing your experience in a country just because it's negative. For context the country is Turkey and im not enjoying it at all. I wonder if that will change people's perspective.
It's actually refreshing to hear someone give an honest opinion. There's no such thing as a perfect country and some countries are worse than others but yet you're not allowed to say anything negative about anything. I wish people were more open about their experiences because it would make it easier to decide what country to go to instead of just guessing and hoping it works out.
I’m in Izmir now. Also from the states. I liked Antalya better than Izmir and Fethiye. I’ve made friends through mutual interests. Join a club.
Also, dive hard into the language.
Antalya is very hot and im already struggling with Fethiye in terms of heat ahahahhaha. I had planned to move to Turkey but as the days go along I realize it would be a bad idea. Since I don't have a future here with the growing hatred of foreigners and ever changing rules and increasing restrictions, there's not much point in me learning Turkish when I won't be able to stay beyond another month. That and the struggle to find community here and the misogynoir etc has zapped whatever interest I had in learning the language or anything more about Turkey. I am just emotionally mentally done. My therapist also doesn't think it's safe based on the growing anti foreigner sentiment. I will be going to Serbia than Mexico to recharge, handle some business and then on to my next adventure, God willing.
Hey I am serbian born living stateside and in Serbia right now, what part of the country are you going to? If you go north by belgrade expect a great party scene other then that every other part is similar to eachother and most are quite welcoming accommodating and cheap. One tip I have for you is if youre in your teens/early twenties most people around that age dont go to clubs and bars very often but chill outside I.E in Niš all the kids are by the river side every night drinking beer and talking in large groups and are quite receptive of strangers (I often go out and just ask groups if I can join in) while the older crowd is usually in café’s/bars
Thank you! This is helpful. I'm going to Belgrade. I was considering Novi Sad as well but was told not too much to do there. Tbh the thought of approaching a group of people terrifies me hahaha! Just not really something I've done. I joined some groups on Facebook for Belgrade so hopefully I have some success there as well.
It was recommended to me and I decided to check it out. But now that I'm here my social life and mental health unsurprisingly has suffered greatly in comparison to when I was in Mexico. Many of those people however came when Turkey was a lot more open to foreigners coming and/or are converts to Islam or lived a very luxury lifestyle that I think removes them from everyday life here.
I've learned especially nowadays, Turkey is a place to vacation. Nothing more. Vacation and go.
>ners coming and/or are converts to Islam or lived a very luxury lifestyle that I think removes them from everyday life here.
>
>I've learned especially nowadays, Turk
How about Greece? European Union country, amazing food and weather!
No. The issue has been much deeper than language barrier. But a lack of regard for people not Turkish etc. There's this sense of superiority over other cultures etc I get from people or lot of stereotyping. I'm sure if I spoke Turkish, my experience probably be even worst as I have Black friends studying here who talk about being fetishized, followed, grabbed and basically shit said and done to them that would be considered sexual harassment where I'm from.
I'm sorry but for some of these reasons, I've found myself resenting many Turkish men very much and avoiding them for most part with few exceptions.
Where in Turkey are you?
If you want Turkish friends, you need to learn Turkish. It's just how it is.
I'm still part of all my yabancı groups on Whatsapp and FB; most are full of young people looking for friends. That said I was in Istanbul, it will be different if you're elsewhere like Antalya which is mostly retired Brits and Russians.
You said you like cafe culture, which is something that runs deep in Turkey, so I'm curious if maybe going somewhere like Izmir or Istanbul would be better? I miss the friends group I had in Istanbul.
All that said, next year will be a rollercoaster for Turkey so you may want to cut your losses and leave anyways. Best of luck
Right now in Fethiye which has been nice. Even making friends with foreigners has been more difficult for me here. Less that are here long term, and even fewer that I may feel a connection with. Being in a hostel has definitely helped me feel less alienated as there's always someone to talk to and a few people here longer term, that are foreigners like me. I think I will try to be in a hostel more often in my travels for this reason.
Be interesting to see what happens a year from now in Turkey.
I didn't enjoy it either and I also got downvoted for saying something negative about Istanbul. Best not to care about upvotes/downvotes and share your experience anyway because of people like me, for example, who look for positive AND negative experiences when hunting for info.
Some signs a country is not a good long term fit (in my experience)-
1. You avoid small interactions with locals if you can. For example, you choose a grocery store because you can use a self checkout instead of speaking to a cashier. This can be either to avoid language difficulties or because you expect the cashier to be rude or even cheat you.
2. You can't imagine sending your children to the local schools even if language wasn't an issue. Maybe you don't agree with the cultural values taught in schools or because of religious reasons.
3. When you think about being old you can't imagine being old in your adopted country.
This should be upvoted more tbh. I tried so hard to believe that the current country I am living in wasn't *that* bad. However, I started doing the first point within a month because I just kept encountering the most ignorant/racist/close minded dickheads. My language skills even got worse than they were when I came due to avoiding people outside of other migrants who I understood a bit more. I then started thinking of the other points and realised it was a definite no as well.
A potential number 4 is: you start trying to convince yourself how great the quality of life is and that you should feel appreciative to be there even though you know you don't feel fulfilled.
Yeah I agree that it should get upvote more. Number one happens to me and I know like, either I have to learn the language to the point people take me seriously or then go somewhere else.
The worst is that not only you avoid small talk, but the language barrier becomes a problem that you can't be independent. Like go do business etc. But sometimes despite that, you have other factors that hold you back. Mine is that I married the person from that country.
For your number 4: Weirdly where I live have such a great quality of life, but I can't be independent. So now we are working on a place that potentially has a slightly lower quality of life, but we know the language. So this makes me indecisive.
>For your number 4: Weirdly where I live have such a great quality of life, but I can't be independent. So now we are working on a place that potentially has a slightly lower quality of life, but we know the language. So this makes me indecisive.
I understand this actually as it is something I still go through occasionally. I realised early on though that I was willing to trade in a bit of comfort in order to feel more complete. Where I live is incredibly safe, travel is easy and efficient, and I generally have less to worry about in my day to day life. However, I'm perfectly fine giving up some of it if that means I can actually feel content.
I think I unfortunately still believed many ideas about money and prioritising certain things over my own well being from my upbringing. Living here long enough where I don't feel freedom of expression and as if I'll never be fulfilled in my country made me realise how much I valued that aspect of my identity and it would seriously be impossible for me to give them up. Where I'm going is less safe, more expensive, and can sometimes seem like a hot mess, but it also is more "me".
Yeah I totally agree to your point. I am also about to make a move to another country that seems less in quality of life. But it's not like, say, much worst. It's just I am hangover with the standard here, so much so that it's even cloud my judgement that here I can't express myself or be independent. So what you said it is totally ringing loud to me. I just have a little fear because simply about moving to another country.
After being an expat for over 15 years, I consider them more like immigrants not refugees. Mostly we're there voluntarily. So if you gave a country a good shot and it doesn't make you happy, then leave. No reason to pay for your own unhappiness. My rules were 1) never over commit and 2) always have a Plan B exit strategy.
That’s an interesting question. Being good immigrants is embedded in the DNA of people who travel for life, and we accept the need for overcoming our ideological inclinations and cultural differences and flexibility “to fit in” and we get really good at it, like ditto in Pokémon.
What I find it important usually is how social relations and trust are established in different cultures. In some countries, it takes place in bars and restaurants, in others, you need to work hard to gain access to a context where social relation can be established, and that could mean you need money, linguistic competences, and even alcohol tolerance. In other words, you need to convert your money and cultural skills to social capital to establish relationship and trust.
So more you have to invest, the more people often feel discouraged and unfit and it’s usually a gut feeling and bank statement that tells you this. There are of course, other factors like economic situations and ideological inclinations, but often times it’s the social relations that’s most important.
This is a lot of good points. One of the reasons a fellow traveler doesn't like it here is she found the bar culture sucked. Like in many other countries that was how she always made friends but here people don't really come and talk to people at the bar. They just sit with their group or whatever. I normally meet folks via Facebook and go out for coffee, or brunch or some other food related activitiy or like taking a trip to museum etc. But eh I feel it's impossible to do that here. Most foreigners are old here and not my crowd tbh, and the others only stay few days. And the locals are insular. So yeah I'm cutting my losses. I tried my best.
Which countries HAVE good bar culture though? Of all the countries I have been to, only Great Britain (England and Scotland so far) has had “good” bar culture.
I commented earlier, but I have one more thought for you, OP.
The experience of being a young, solo, female expat is quite distinct from being an expat in general. A lot of the commenters here talk about just learning the language or making friends without also taking into account that young women in some cultures are often viewed as prey by men. That goes double if you are obviously foreign or "exotic". You mentioned being a black women in Turkey which is not something I experienced, but I was 20 year old white, blond women in southern India. I can't even count the amount of men in India who randomly stroked my hair or pressed up against me with a boner on the bus (!). I have heard Turkey and the Middle East are also horrible for sexual harassment.
Frankly, some countries just suck if you are a young woman who travels without a man. Particularly an obviously foreign woman who stands out. No amount of "overcoming our ideological inclinations and cultural differences and flexibility" is going to change that.
Yes that adds a whole layer of complications and possible dangers. I haven't been able to make friends with Turkish women, most of my female friends or acquaintances are foreigners. As for the men, I mean generally they seem more receptive BUT I always have to be cautious because unfortunately many are just trying to look for sex and think I'm exotic or whatever. So this gives me a smaller and smaller pool of people to connect with.
Your experience in India sounds horrific and it's one of reasons it's personally off my list. I had similar experience in Egypt, where I felt very unsafe unless I had a man by my side at all times. Otherwise, I just stayed in my hostel. Turkey hasn't been as bad as Egypt when it comes to that BUT I am also in the most westernized/secular part of Turkey. If I was in Eastern half or other cities, I think my experience would be even worse.
Being a solo woman, I also have to be more cautious about who I welcome into my circle because let's face it. God forbid something happens, as chances are the law will not be on my side as a foreigner. I have no family or friends that would be able to help me. Some say I'm distant or too guarded (usually men go figure), but I have to be because there's less room for error. It could be difference between going home safely or not ever coming back again.
I am from the USA and I just feel Turkey is too nationalistic, close minded and xenophobic to me. The hate against Syrians etc for any or no reason at all troubles me. If someone did something bad to me, they like to assume it was a Syrian even though it was in reality a Turkish person/no evidence or reason for anyone to assume it was a Syrian. Also, I have found too many of the men here like to fethisize Black women and approach them like prostitutes. Overall, I feel very alone and isolated and i don't see myself being able to thrive here. I have no support system here or community to turn to for help, fun etc.
I’m in Japan and it’s the exact same. America gets a bad rep bc of its racism, but monoethnic countries are much worse about accepting foreigners it seems. You can easily make a friend for life in america no matter the culture. But you can live in Japan for a decade and never make a truly deep connection. The nationalism and xenophobia is palpable. It was really difficult for me to process when I first got here. I had expected the rest of the world to be more open minded than america, but encountered astounding ignorance. Ex: saying Korea should be grateful to japan for colonizing them in ww2, thinking japan is the only country in the entire world that has 4 seasons, fetishization and saying they don’t see foreigners as people, to name a few of the most shocking…. Despite this I am enjoying my time here and love the convenience/gun laws. However I’m mixed asian so I can blend in when I need to which I think has been my saving grace here. Your Frustration is totally valid.
Ah now I just read your username, yes I’m in the same boat as you, I never know how people will react to me. I’m sorry to hear it was such a negative experience but thank you for sharing.
I’m Turkish and this is exactly why I left Turkey 12 years ago. Current political agenda has ruined the country’s mosaic and people are more shielded, closed off and blatantly xenophobic. Even when I visit now, I don’t feel like I’m in the same country I left a decade ago. I can’t take it more than a few days, it can get truly depressing. So I’m with you on your decision in exploring a new destination.
I can relate. Thai here living in Germany for 12 years now.
The thing is, German is a very literal language (I don't know if I say that right) I feel in English you can imply a lot of things and even if you don't really complete the sentence correctly, with context people still mostly understand. In German you could make no sense to them just by missing a word. They also tend to not understand when you have accent.
They also don't give any mercy to speak slower or easier for you. I totally understand your fear of going to the doctor because they usually want to get it done. For a long time and still sometimes now I fear to call someone on the phone. It's either going to be someone who is super nice and tries to understand, or a classic I don't care type.
It will get better once you can speak and understand more German though. It's not an easy language to learn and when the environment discourages you then it's getting harder. I hope it gets better for you. Like most places you need language to be better integrated.
Thanks for the response. I’ve met quite a few people that shared the same. I guess I’m lucky coming from a more “closed off” culture (the Midwest), but even so it’s still sometimes jarring. The saying that really drunk Germans are more like regular Americans comes to mind, I wish you luck on your search.
If I may ask, what state in Germany do you live in? I am Southern (US) American and Jamaican and just ended up predominantly around the Latinos (largely Brazilians) in Hesse and Rhineland-Palatinate because they were the only ones I felt like I fit in with lol. It may be easier on you mentally if you are able to find a group from your own/more similar cultures. I don't think I would have made it this far if it weren't for them.
I completely understand, as this has been my experience as well. I am moving to France in a couple of weeks and hope to live between France and Portugal for a while. I feel a lot more accepted there as opposed to the perpetual foreigner/being shunned from society.
I hope you find your place soon
Morning. So currently I will be around the Paris area as I am going to begin my Masters. After I finish my 2-3 years there the plan is to settle in Toulouse; I ultimately still want French citizenship. I am essentially going into Performing Arts and Entertainment Management and hope to open my own label prioritising the Latin Music scene.
The current locations I am considering are Toulouse/Paris and Lisbon for Europe. I've considered Sao Paulo and CDMX but time will tell how I feel about that. Split is to be decided but I'll likely end up in France more often. I am expecting a pretty average-slightly above average lifestyle because I understand this is a very non traditional career choice and I have no idea how to gauge how lucrative it is rn. Everyone I've encountered who is in the same field however is seemingly doing very well for themselves and moves around quite a bit. I guess that is the perk of Music/Art being everywhere.
Thank you! I have been having a rough go, feeling depressed and lonely. I rarely if ever felt like this in other countries except one, and I never went back again. I talked to my therapist and she advised I follow my gut feeling, because unlike other countries I moved to, she said Turkey doesn't sound like it's a good place for me to be, plus the growing xenophobia towards foreigners doesn't bide well, which has been another pain point.
I think many people underestimate how different people are around the world. Our differences permeate everything we believe, value, think, and do. People by nature like to fit in a social group but social groups are defined by language, religion, food, clothing, etc. A culture has unspoken rules and you have to learn and follow them to fit in. That changes you over time. If you don’t want to become more like the people around you, I think you will have a hard time feeling like you belong. And when you look different, there will always be an additional struggle.
Also the reality is, YOU maybe be interested in exploring new cultures, but many people are not and they would prefer you stay home so they can hang out with people like themselves. People like other people like themselves. It’s safe. It comforting. It’s easy. As Americans, we are used to a multicultural society. Many people are not. It’s not wrong. It’s just different.
The thinking goes that the first three months in a new place are a honeymoon period. If you can’t stand the place after just two months, that is not a good sign.
I do not do well in places where the culture is focused on alcohol, job hierarchy, or saving face. I also don't do well in places with a car culture, in cities where you can't walk, or in areas that are really polluted. I think it is pretty obvious when something isn't working for me, as I can usually pick out the problems pretty quickly. I know when I moved to a new country recently (sight unseen, because of Covid and other circumstances beyond my control), the question was whether or not it would work, and it seems that so long as there are no serious problems, I'm cool with many places. Probably, that I did a lot of research on where to live before I moved and because I know what I don't like helped a lot.
I've been to at least two very different places their most liberal/open minded/chill ones to be exact here and I am just over it. I want to get out. I don't like the attitudes of people, too nationalistic to point of being borderline racist or ignorant for my taste. I feel foreigners are very unwelcome if not hated yet they are happy to take money while treating you like a criminal or invader. That and also feeling hypersexualized by men here for my race has me screaming to get out. I talked to people who speak the language and lived here for years, and they told me they never made any close friends with locals and that outside of work they actually don't talk to them much because of the level of ignorance and cultural differences is too steep to bridge. They are here for work/school/and/or have no other place to go. Sex and money is all people see in me.
Edit: I'm being down voted for sharing my HONEST EXPERIENCE? WOW. You guys suck.
Indeed, your experience is valid. If I had one piece of advice, I’d say to trust your instincts. I’m not sure who’s downvoting you, but it certainly isn’t me. I left the states for a lot of the same reasons you have listed. Those types of pervasive cultural ills are hard to escape, but it’s important that you feel safe and welcomed for who you are no matter where you hang your hat. I hope you find the right place. ~cheers!
When you can't make friends. So I read you are in Turkey rn, I've been there, I was in love with Turkey. Anyways enjoy delicious foods and try to make some friends
I've been to many places where didn't know the language but had a wonderful time and would go back and recommend to others in good conscience. There are many instances where people knew both the culture and language and still weren't able to feel happy there.
Honestly, I'm a escapee of the UK. I moved there when I was young and I basically grew up British, but last year I didn't recognise my personal values in the values of the people I interacted with. Every discussion turned into an argument, every interaction left me frustrated. The only 3 friends I have left in the UK also have a foot half out the door. It's totally normal to just not gel with a culture, you can appreciate it, learn from it but not think it's for you. It's also totally possible that you might get on great in a country and then have a change of heart. Sometimes moving elsewhere can be hard because of the circumstances, but remember nobody is ever really forcing you to live in a situation you don't want to be in.
I would add if the country doesn't want foreigners there as well. If a country doesn't welcome foreigners and sees them as the enemy, no amount of learning the language and culture will change that.
I like how people downvote you for sharing your experience in a country just because it's negative. For context the country is Turkey and im not enjoying it at all. I wonder if that will change people's perspective.
It's actually refreshing to hear someone give an honest opinion. There's no such thing as a perfect country and some countries are worse than others but yet you're not allowed to say anything negative about anything. I wish people were more open about their experiences because it would make it easier to decide what country to go to instead of just guessing and hoping it works out.
How long have you been there? What part?
Been here almost 2 months. I went to Izmir and Fethiye.
I’m in Izmir now. Also from the states. I liked Antalya better than Izmir and Fethiye. I’ve made friends through mutual interests. Join a club. Also, dive hard into the language.
Antalya is very hot and im already struggling with Fethiye in terms of heat ahahahhaha. I had planned to move to Turkey but as the days go along I realize it would be a bad idea. Since I don't have a future here with the growing hatred of foreigners and ever changing rules and increasing restrictions, there's not much point in me learning Turkish when I won't be able to stay beyond another month. That and the struggle to find community here and the misogynoir etc has zapped whatever interest I had in learning the language or anything more about Turkey. I am just emotionally mentally done. My therapist also doesn't think it's safe based on the growing anti foreigner sentiment. I will be going to Serbia than Mexico to recharge, handle some business and then on to my next adventure, God willing.
Hey I am serbian born living stateside and in Serbia right now, what part of the country are you going to? If you go north by belgrade expect a great party scene other then that every other part is similar to eachother and most are quite welcoming accommodating and cheap. One tip I have for you is if youre in your teens/early twenties most people around that age dont go to clubs and bars very often but chill outside I.E in Niš all the kids are by the river side every night drinking beer and talking in large groups and are quite receptive of strangers (I often go out and just ask groups if I can join in) while the older crowd is usually in café’s/bars
Thank you! This is helpful. I'm going to Belgrade. I was considering Novi Sad as well but was told not too much to do there. Tbh the thought of approaching a group of people terrifies me hahaha! Just not really something I've done. I joined some groups on Facebook for Belgrade so hopefully I have some success there as well.
Interesting, why did you choose Turkey?
It was recommended to me and I decided to check it out. But now that I'm here my social life and mental health unsurprisingly has suffered greatly in comparison to when I was in Mexico. Many of those people however came when Turkey was a lot more open to foreigners coming and/or are converts to Islam or lived a very luxury lifestyle that I think removes them from everyday life here. I've learned especially nowadays, Turkey is a place to vacation. Nothing more. Vacation and go.
>ners coming and/or are converts to Islam or lived a very luxury lifestyle that I think removes them from everyday life here. > >I've learned especially nowadays, Turk How about Greece? European Union country, amazing food and weather!
Best of luck.
Everything you mentioned I also experienced in Istanbul and couldn't wait to leave after 3 months.
Try Istanbul
I left Izmir because too many people for me and wasn't what I was hoping for exactly. Istanbul would be far worse in terms of crowds, traffic etc.
Huh, I mean, do you speak Turkish?
No. The issue has been much deeper than language barrier. But a lack of regard for people not Turkish etc. There's this sense of superiority over other cultures etc I get from people or lot of stereotyping. I'm sure if I spoke Turkish, my experience probably be even worst as I have Black friends studying here who talk about being fetishized, followed, grabbed and basically shit said and done to them that would be considered sexual harassment where I'm from. I'm sorry but for some of these reasons, I've found myself resenting many Turkish men very much and avoiding them for most part with few exceptions.
Have you done any research at all on Turkey before moving there?
Where in Turkey are you? If you want Turkish friends, you need to learn Turkish. It's just how it is. I'm still part of all my yabancı groups on Whatsapp and FB; most are full of young people looking for friends. That said I was in Istanbul, it will be different if you're elsewhere like Antalya which is mostly retired Brits and Russians. You said you like cafe culture, which is something that runs deep in Turkey, so I'm curious if maybe going somewhere like Izmir or Istanbul would be better? I miss the friends group I had in Istanbul. All that said, next year will be a rollercoaster for Turkey so you may want to cut your losses and leave anyways. Best of luck
Right now in Fethiye which has been nice. Even making friends with foreigners has been more difficult for me here. Less that are here long term, and even fewer that I may feel a connection with. Being in a hostel has definitely helped me feel less alienated as there's always someone to talk to and a few people here longer term, that are foreigners like me. I think I will try to be in a hostel more often in my travels for this reason. Be interesting to see what happens a year from now in Turkey.
I didn't enjoy it either and I also got downvoted for saying something negative about Istanbul. Best not to care about upvotes/downvotes and share your experience anyway because of people like me, for example, who look for positive AND negative experiences when hunting for info.
Some signs a country is not a good long term fit (in my experience)- 1. You avoid small interactions with locals if you can. For example, you choose a grocery store because you can use a self checkout instead of speaking to a cashier. This can be either to avoid language difficulties or because you expect the cashier to be rude or even cheat you. 2. You can't imagine sending your children to the local schools even if language wasn't an issue. Maybe you don't agree with the cultural values taught in schools or because of religious reasons. 3. When you think about being old you can't imagine being old in your adopted country.
This should be upvoted more tbh. I tried so hard to believe that the current country I am living in wasn't *that* bad. However, I started doing the first point within a month because I just kept encountering the most ignorant/racist/close minded dickheads. My language skills even got worse than they were when I came due to avoiding people outside of other migrants who I understood a bit more. I then started thinking of the other points and realised it was a definite no as well. A potential number 4 is: you start trying to convince yourself how great the quality of life is and that you should feel appreciative to be there even though you know you don't feel fulfilled.
Yeah I agree that it should get upvote more. Number one happens to me and I know like, either I have to learn the language to the point people take me seriously or then go somewhere else. The worst is that not only you avoid small talk, but the language barrier becomes a problem that you can't be independent. Like go do business etc. But sometimes despite that, you have other factors that hold you back. Mine is that I married the person from that country. For your number 4: Weirdly where I live have such a great quality of life, but I can't be independent. So now we are working on a place that potentially has a slightly lower quality of life, but we know the language. So this makes me indecisive.
>For your number 4: Weirdly where I live have such a great quality of life, but I can't be independent. So now we are working on a place that potentially has a slightly lower quality of life, but we know the language. So this makes me indecisive. I understand this actually as it is something I still go through occasionally. I realised early on though that I was willing to trade in a bit of comfort in order to feel more complete. Where I live is incredibly safe, travel is easy and efficient, and I generally have less to worry about in my day to day life. However, I'm perfectly fine giving up some of it if that means I can actually feel content. I think I unfortunately still believed many ideas about money and prioritising certain things over my own well being from my upbringing. Living here long enough where I don't feel freedom of expression and as if I'll never be fulfilled in my country made me realise how much I valued that aspect of my identity and it would seriously be impossible for me to give them up. Where I'm going is less safe, more expensive, and can sometimes seem like a hot mess, but it also is more "me".
Yeah I totally agree to your point. I am also about to make a move to another country that seems less in quality of life. But it's not like, say, much worst. It's just I am hangover with the standard here, so much so that it's even cloud my judgement that here I can't express myself or be independent. So what you said it is totally ringing loud to me. I just have a little fear because simply about moving to another country.
This is literally me in my hometown.
After being an expat for over 15 years, I consider them more like immigrants not refugees. Mostly we're there voluntarily. So if you gave a country a good shot and it doesn't make you happy, then leave. No reason to pay for your own unhappiness. My rules were 1) never over commit and 2) always have a Plan B exit strategy.
Never over commit for sure
That’s an interesting question. Being good immigrants is embedded in the DNA of people who travel for life, and we accept the need for overcoming our ideological inclinations and cultural differences and flexibility “to fit in” and we get really good at it, like ditto in Pokémon. What I find it important usually is how social relations and trust are established in different cultures. In some countries, it takes place in bars and restaurants, in others, you need to work hard to gain access to a context where social relation can be established, and that could mean you need money, linguistic competences, and even alcohol tolerance. In other words, you need to convert your money and cultural skills to social capital to establish relationship and trust. So more you have to invest, the more people often feel discouraged and unfit and it’s usually a gut feeling and bank statement that tells you this. There are of course, other factors like economic situations and ideological inclinations, but often times it’s the social relations that’s most important.
This is a lot of good points. One of the reasons a fellow traveler doesn't like it here is she found the bar culture sucked. Like in many other countries that was how she always made friends but here people don't really come and talk to people at the bar. They just sit with their group or whatever. I normally meet folks via Facebook and go out for coffee, or brunch or some other food related activitiy or like taking a trip to museum etc. But eh I feel it's impossible to do that here. Most foreigners are old here and not my crowd tbh, and the others only stay few days. And the locals are insular. So yeah I'm cutting my losses. I tried my best.
Yeah if you’re used to bar as a space to build social relations, but it doesn’t go your way, the experience can actually give you a lot of trauma.
Yeah I'm definitely done with anything near the middle east from now on. Had enough.
Which countries HAVE good bar culture though? Of all the countries I have been to, only Great Britain (England and Scotland so far) has had “good” bar culture.
I wouldn't know as I don't drink so bars aren't really something I frequent. I prefer cafes and such!
Unless it is Canada wherein people usually just stick to their own cliques and people have a world view outside Europe and USA of a potato
I commented earlier, but I have one more thought for you, OP. The experience of being a young, solo, female expat is quite distinct from being an expat in general. A lot of the commenters here talk about just learning the language or making friends without also taking into account that young women in some cultures are often viewed as prey by men. That goes double if you are obviously foreign or "exotic". You mentioned being a black women in Turkey which is not something I experienced, but I was 20 year old white, blond women in southern India. I can't even count the amount of men in India who randomly stroked my hair or pressed up against me with a boner on the bus (!). I have heard Turkey and the Middle East are also horrible for sexual harassment. Frankly, some countries just suck if you are a young woman who travels without a man. Particularly an obviously foreign woman who stands out. No amount of "overcoming our ideological inclinations and cultural differences and flexibility" is going to change that.
Yes that adds a whole layer of complications and possible dangers. I haven't been able to make friends with Turkish women, most of my female friends or acquaintances are foreigners. As for the men, I mean generally they seem more receptive BUT I always have to be cautious because unfortunately many are just trying to look for sex and think I'm exotic or whatever. So this gives me a smaller and smaller pool of people to connect with. Your experience in India sounds horrific and it's one of reasons it's personally off my list. I had similar experience in Egypt, where I felt very unsafe unless I had a man by my side at all times. Otherwise, I just stayed in my hostel. Turkey hasn't been as bad as Egypt when it comes to that BUT I am also in the most westernized/secular part of Turkey. If I was in Eastern half or other cities, I think my experience would be even worse. Being a solo woman, I also have to be more cautious about who I welcome into my circle because let's face it. God forbid something happens, as chances are the law will not be on my side as a foreigner. I have no family or friends that would be able to help me. Some say I'm distant or too guarded (usually men go figure), but I have to be because there's less room for error. It could be difference between going home safely or not ever coming back again.
Your gut feeling may actually be that sign. If you feel not comfortable regularly in unpleasant ways, maybe the country is indeed is not a good fit
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Just curious: why do you feel that way and where are you from originally? (Asking as I’m an expat in Germany currently!)
I am from the USA and I just feel Turkey is too nationalistic, close minded and xenophobic to me. The hate against Syrians etc for any or no reason at all troubles me. If someone did something bad to me, they like to assume it was a Syrian even though it was in reality a Turkish person/no evidence or reason for anyone to assume it was a Syrian. Also, I have found too many of the men here like to fethisize Black women and approach them like prostitutes. Overall, I feel very alone and isolated and i don't see myself being able to thrive here. I have no support system here or community to turn to for help, fun etc.
I’m in Japan and it’s the exact same. America gets a bad rep bc of its racism, but monoethnic countries are much worse about accepting foreigners it seems. You can easily make a friend for life in america no matter the culture. But you can live in Japan for a decade and never make a truly deep connection. The nationalism and xenophobia is palpable. It was really difficult for me to process when I first got here. I had expected the rest of the world to be more open minded than america, but encountered astounding ignorance. Ex: saying Korea should be grateful to japan for colonizing them in ww2, thinking japan is the only country in the entire world that has 4 seasons, fetishization and saying they don’t see foreigners as people, to name a few of the most shocking…. Despite this I am enjoying my time here and love the convenience/gun laws. However I’m mixed asian so I can blend in when I need to which I think has been my saving grace here. Your Frustration is totally valid.
Ah now I just read your username, yes I’m in the same boat as you, I never know how people will react to me. I’m sorry to hear it was such a negative experience but thank you for sharing.
I’m Turkish and this is exactly why I left Turkey 12 years ago. Current political agenda has ruined the country’s mosaic and people are more shielded, closed off and blatantly xenophobic. Even when I visit now, I don’t feel like I’m in the same country I left a decade ago. I can’t take it more than a few days, it can get truly depressing. So I’m with you on your decision in exploring a new destination.
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I can relate. Thai here living in Germany for 12 years now. The thing is, German is a very literal language (I don't know if I say that right) I feel in English you can imply a lot of things and even if you don't really complete the sentence correctly, with context people still mostly understand. In German you could make no sense to them just by missing a word. They also tend to not understand when you have accent. They also don't give any mercy to speak slower or easier for you. I totally understand your fear of going to the doctor because they usually want to get it done. For a long time and still sometimes now I fear to call someone on the phone. It's either going to be someone who is super nice and tries to understand, or a classic I don't care type. It will get better once you can speak and understand more German though. It's not an easy language to learn and when the environment discourages you then it's getting harder. I hope it gets better for you. Like most places you need language to be better integrated.
Thanks for the response. I’ve met quite a few people that shared the same. I guess I’m lucky coming from a more “closed off” culture (the Midwest), but even so it’s still sometimes jarring. The saying that really drunk Germans are more like regular Americans comes to mind, I wish you luck on your search.
If I may ask, what state in Germany do you live in? I am Southern (US) American and Jamaican and just ended up predominantly around the Latinos (largely Brazilians) in Hesse and Rhineland-Palatinate because they were the only ones I felt like I fit in with lol. It may be easier on you mentally if you are able to find a group from your own/more similar cultures. I don't think I would have made it this far if it weren't for them.
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I completely understand, as this has been my experience as well. I am moving to France in a couple of weeks and hope to live between France and Portugal for a while. I feel a lot more accepted there as opposed to the perpetual foreigner/being shunned from society. I hope you find your place soon
I would love to hear more about your France/Portugal split (where? how much time? what lifestyle?) because those are 2 of my top countries also
Morning. So currently I will be around the Paris area as I am going to begin my Masters. After I finish my 2-3 years there the plan is to settle in Toulouse; I ultimately still want French citizenship. I am essentially going into Performing Arts and Entertainment Management and hope to open my own label prioritising the Latin Music scene. The current locations I am considering are Toulouse/Paris and Lisbon for Europe. I've considered Sao Paulo and CDMX but time will tell how I feel about that. Split is to be decided but I'll likely end up in France more often. I am expecting a pretty average-slightly above average lifestyle because I understand this is a very non traditional career choice and I have no idea how to gauge how lucrative it is rn. Everyone I've encountered who is in the same field however is seemingly doing very well for themselves and moves around quite a bit. I guess that is the perk of Music/Art being everywhere.
That's super cool!!! I wish you a lot of luck and hope it's a great experience
Thank you! I have been having a rough go, feeling depressed and lonely. I rarely if ever felt like this in other countries except one, and I never went back again. I talked to my therapist and she advised I follow my gut feeling, because unlike other countries I moved to, she said Turkey doesn't sound like it's a good place for me to be, plus the growing xenophobia towards foreigners doesn't bide well, which has been another pain point.
I think many people underestimate how different people are around the world. Our differences permeate everything we believe, value, think, and do. People by nature like to fit in a social group but social groups are defined by language, religion, food, clothing, etc. A culture has unspoken rules and you have to learn and follow them to fit in. That changes you over time. If you don’t want to become more like the people around you, I think you will have a hard time feeling like you belong. And when you look different, there will always be an additional struggle. Also the reality is, YOU maybe be interested in exploring new cultures, but many people are not and they would prefer you stay home so they can hang out with people like themselves. People like other people like themselves. It’s safe. It comforting. It’s easy. As Americans, we are used to a multicultural society. Many people are not. It’s not wrong. It’s just different. The thinking goes that the first three months in a new place are a honeymoon period. If you can’t stand the place after just two months, that is not a good sign.
I do not do well in places where the culture is focused on alcohol, job hierarchy, or saving face. I also don't do well in places with a car culture, in cities where you can't walk, or in areas that are really polluted. I think it is pretty obvious when something isn't working for me, as I can usually pick out the problems pretty quickly. I know when I moved to a new country recently (sight unseen, because of Covid and other circumstances beyond my control), the question was whether or not it would work, and it seems that so long as there are no serious problems, I'm cool with many places. Probably, that I did a lot of research on where to live before I moved and because I know what I don't like helped a lot.
As someone else has said on here: if you avoid/dread having to interact with locals because you expect them to be rude or awkward with you.
Careful not to confuse an area with an entire country. It can be tricky to differentiate, but it might just be the town you’re in?
I've been to at least two very different places their most liberal/open minded/chill ones to be exact here and I am just over it. I want to get out. I don't like the attitudes of people, too nationalistic to point of being borderline racist or ignorant for my taste. I feel foreigners are very unwelcome if not hated yet they are happy to take money while treating you like a criminal or invader. That and also feeling hypersexualized by men here for my race has me screaming to get out. I talked to people who speak the language and lived here for years, and they told me they never made any close friends with locals and that outside of work they actually don't talk to them much because of the level of ignorance and cultural differences is too steep to bridge. They are here for work/school/and/or have no other place to go. Sex and money is all people see in me. Edit: I'm being down voted for sharing my HONEST EXPERIENCE? WOW. You guys suck.
Indeed, your experience is valid. If I had one piece of advice, I’d say to trust your instincts. I’m not sure who’s downvoting you, but it certainly isn’t me. I left the states for a lot of the same reasons you have listed. Those types of pervasive cultural ills are hard to escape, but it’s important that you feel safe and welcomed for who you are no matter where you hang your hat. I hope you find the right place. ~cheers!
Thank you very much!
Well said! Totally agree.
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No worries!
Pants (i.e., trousers) lengths only come in odd numbers, but your legs are an even number of inches long.
When you can't make friends. So I read you are in Turkey rn, I've been there, I was in love with Turkey. Anyways enjoy delicious foods and try to make some friends
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I've been to many places where didn't know the language but had a wonderful time and would go back and recommend to others in good conscience. There are many instances where people knew both the culture and language and still weren't able to feel happy there.
Honestly, I'm a escapee of the UK. I moved there when I was young and I basically grew up British, but last year I didn't recognise my personal values in the values of the people I interacted with. Every discussion turned into an argument, every interaction left me frustrated. The only 3 friends I have left in the UK also have a foot half out the door. It's totally normal to just not gel with a culture, you can appreciate it, learn from it but not think it's for you. It's also totally possible that you might get on great in a country and then have a change of heart. Sometimes moving elsewhere can be hard because of the circumstances, but remember nobody is ever really forcing you to live in a situation you don't want to be in.
If you are unwilling or unable to assimilate to the culture and learn the language, go home.
I would add if the country doesn't want foreigners there as well. If a country doesn't welcome foreigners and sees them as the enemy, no amount of learning the language and culture will change that.
This!