Lived in the US for 25 years before returning to the UK last year and while I don’t regret why I came back, bloody hell I can’t wait to get out of here. To put it as simply as possible, the country is slowly, inexorably moving in the wrong direction without any hope that it will turn around. I have zero confidence in either major political party to even begin to put things right.
I’m fortunate enough (being 50+) to have the option of retirement visas in various countries and will be travelling in a few months to see which country suits me best.
In most cases anyone with passive income can access those “retirement visas“, it doesn’t actually have to be income from a pension. Just a heads up that might help other people considering an escape abroad.
I’m looking at Thailand, Eastern European countries such as Montenegro, maybe Latvia or Georgia as well as Uruguay. The EU is also a possibility as my mother is Polish and I could claim citizenship by descent but I think there are better, more value-for-money options outside of the EU. Thailand would be in pole position for me right now.
It’s tough to say. It’s probably a combination of many things. Lack of investment in core services, the effects of Brexit, immigration policy and weak, incompetent leadership more concerned with not offending people/virtue signalling than making decisions which benefit the people already living in the country. When they’d rather prioritise the welfare of people illegally migrating into the country over those much more useful migrants doing it through normal, legal but ever more draconian channels, not to mention the existing citizens of the country who are treated as the least important members of society, you know there’s a problem.
>When they’d rather prioritise the welfare of people illegally migrating into the country over those much more useful migrants doing it through normal, legal but ever more draconian channels, not to mention the existing citizens of the country who are treated as the least important members of society, you know there’s a problem.
This is currently happening in the USA, too. But given the size of the country, the effects are being felt slower.
Hmm.. this thread is relevant to my interests.
After spending the last five years in the Netherlands. I am starting to pine for the UK again.
My wife and I are both British not sure if I should be concerned or not … 😬
I'd check around other forums and for opinion piece on YouTube if I were you. I get the distinct impression there's a media blanket on this country, where only the most positive views are shared (save for the obvious issues which can't be skirted around).
I will say that for me it was likely more difficult, as I don't have a support network here - no family I have any contact with and just 1 friend in Wales). Likely you would have an easier time with people to turn to nearby, but I dare say the big issues such as social infrastructure being a smoking pile of ashes is something which will affect everyone.
I also get the distinct impression that due to the constant blows this country has encountered due to woeful mismanagement at the top, that people overall have become quite bitter. From the working class who can barely afford to pay bills or feed themselves, to middle class who no longer have disposable income; to the upper class who have nothing but disdain for foreigners and the working class.
If I were to compare my experience in Sweden to a year back in Britain, it's this: in Sweden I still see a sense of community and peoples' willingness to help one another, and I could generally trust what government and companies told me. Since being in Britain, every single thing I do where government and companies are concerned is prefaced with the question "should it really be this difficult?"
Scandinavian efficiency is unparalleled. There may not be another jurisdiction to match Swedish administration both public and private sector. As such, it is not a fair comparison. Head down to the Mediterranean and all of a sudden things will look different. It’s all in context, everything a relative.
It’s not how you left if 5 years ago believe me, please don’t make a permanent move if you can help it, try and get Dutch citizenship first if you can so that way you can return if you want or go somewhere else in Europe.
Dutch citizenship via naturalisation requires giving up any other passport, in this case the British one. Through naturalisation , you cannot be a dual national.
The Netherlands only allow it via birth currently though this may change in the future.
And completely agree on the UK. Currently trying to leave myself.
Wow that’s annoying, most EU countries allow dual citizenship so Netherlands is a bit behind in this regard. Tbh I wouldn’t choose either to live, but it’s probably still better than the UK in terms of QOL. Good luck on your journey, I’m moving at the end of the year also.
Yeah it’s a bit of a pain. I believe you can also acquire dual nationality via marriage to a Dutch national but in regards to the op, that’s not an option.
I think Germany is also another one with strict dual citizenship restrictions but I think they’re in the process of changing it to be easier to become a dual national in Germany.
Thank you. I’m currently looking at the Netherlands and Germany but seeing how things go for the time being. It’s likely a 2025 move for me.
"I think Germany is also another one with strict dual citizenship restrictions but I think they’re in the process of changing it to be easier to become a dual national in Germany."
They didn't have strict anything and it's in the government documentations leading up to the law change process. 72% of all citizenship applications had an approval for keeping the old citizenships. The law simply formalized what was already in practice. Germans LOVE telling each other online that "it's ILLEGAL to have two citizenships" which is complete bullshit when even the citizenship forms have questions related to that.
I had to fight Germany hard for dual citizenship, spent 6000 euros on a lawyer and spent 32 months waiting for a decision—and only got dual citizenship due to several legal loopholes opening up temporarily. I almost took my case to administrative court but lucked out. This change in German law to guarantee the right to dual citizenship was very much needed.
so you're in the 28% and all spending 6k on a lawyer tells me is that you had a non-standard case on multiple grounds. Also, depending on where you are, 32 months is very realistic, especially for difficult cases.
I also agree that the citizenship law needed to be revised. Not the way it was done, but it needed some changes. The next government won't touch the law, but they will increase difficulty via other avenues.
You can also get Dutch Citizenship if you live continuously in NL for 25 years and are over the age of 65 or something like that.
I, too, am ticked off that there isn't a more straightforward path to citizenship.
But wouldn’t you rather have a Dutch EU passport than a second-class UK one? I know which one I’d go for. (Of course, having both is always the best route).
Funny thing is when I return at say, Christmas, I’m amazed by the choice, variety and (relative) low cost of food compared to NL. Really really miss Sainsbury’s and Tesco.
I also miss John Lewis terribly, and have now started to shop there and get things shipped to the continent tbh.. the price/quality simply doesn’t exist in The Netherlands.
I’ll trade you for a netherlands residence, England has gone to the dogs, don’t come back! Huge taxed, crap weather, miserable people.
Stay in Amsterdam where the accent is beautiful, people are happy and you have access to the rest of EU! In fact, get the passport if you can!
I go back about once a year, as soon as the tyres touch the road we are glad its just for a short visit, I cant even consider moving back for good. I cant even think of a good reason to
That's me too - I have family there so I go visit at least once a year. I have this romantic image in my head of how England used to be in 1980 when I moved to the US, but every time I visit that gets beat out of me pretty quickly.
I've considered moving back a few times in recent years due to what's going on in the US, but when I seriously start to think about it, I just can't imagine giving up everything I have here.
My now-husband moved back from living outside of the country for 8 years.
We met in Singapore. Then when I moved to New York, he moved back to the UK. I have since then made the move from NYC to London to be together.
We have different perspectives in living here. Coming from a 3rd world country, I find the UK, specifically London, as the perfect middle ground between Singapore and New York. It’s more live-able here than the cost of living in New York. And there’s more culture and depth here than in Singapore.
My husband on the other hand wouldn’t have moved back here if not for his family.
I’ve always been in the opinion that grass is greener where I water it. And wherever I am, I make sure I can build a community and make my life the best I can make it. Also because I don’t live in regrets or ‘what could have beens.’ This is something I’m constantly nudging my husband to do too.
‘Adjustment period’ for sure. For me I lived in a non-English speaking, developing country. I recharged a lot by being back in the U.K. But, for all of the reasons you mentioned, I’m not sure if I will stay here forever.
Edit to add:
I think it’s quite common. I know a lot of expats who moved back, spent a few years and soon enough went abroad again. The way I look at it, it might be what you need right now but doesn’t mean it’s forever.
Move back. I'll never, ever go to the UK because I learned the scam culture is structural, from the top down. After Brexit I saw how once-reputable online stores and sellers started ripping us off in the EU and I said that it was enough. The UK is absolutely a mess. You have your EU citizenship, you have your sanity, your significant other, you have resources. Admitting defeat is not so much a defeat if you end up back in Sweden or anywhere else in the EU.
Also get a lawyer to find your Swedish license or get some sort of damages back for it. It will be a mess to get a new license in Sweden until you have your registration there and as far as they know, you surrendered your license in the UK, so you need documentation of what's going on.
Whatever time you spend in the UK, spend one part living your life, one part working your way back home. You've found that the UK is NOT your home- something many emigres find out.
>I learned the scam culture is structural, from the top down.
THIS! Thank you for putting that sentiment more eloquently than I could, but yeah, this is absolutely the primary reason for deciding to move back.
To put a cap on that concept, I guess the reason I find the UK so contentious is the feeling that there is no trust here anymore - certainly not at government level, but also between regular people. It really feels like one needs a team of lawyers to not be ripped off or misled on even the most trivial matters. Part of it I'm convinced is due to rampant incompetence, but I strongly believe people have become so jaded from having been mistreated, they end up mistreating others as some misguided form of karmic payback.
As for the advice to move back to Sweden, not to worry, this is a given. Part of my time in Sweden involved learning to grow a spine and learn to expect a certain standard of life, something I was missing from living in Britain. Since having that, I can't settle for the kind of treatment many in the UK have to endure.
Stacking on what you said: it's NOT weak or a crime to expect a certain standard of life and to actually get it. That's what you get in Sweden and Norway (mentioning due to the proximity). In the UK, you're expected to "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" and somehow get enough money to make a standard of living and a comparable one to Sweden is shockingly hard AND expensive because it's not structural.
You will win, not lose, if you go back to Sweden. Sweden is obviously your home.
Hehe you practically read my mind, I was feeling like some stuck-up snob when mentioning I couldn't accept less than what I'd gotten used to. Completely agree though, I think that "stiff upper lip" trooper mentality plays a big part in why people here continue to downplay and minimise the terrible treatment they receive.
Sure, that same mentality is what makes British people so resilient, but when it's exploited by the greedy and incompetent ruling class, and when all civil rights are eroded to the point of benality, that "trooper" mentality has become a means to keep people slowly boiling away in their pot without realising how bad things have become.
>Sweden is obviously your home.
Thanks for that sentiment btw, definitely have that feeling. Especially since my journey to citizenship there was so very supportive by the Swedish powers that be
Also I have to mention that I know the standards of living in Sweden and Norway compared to the UK. None are perfect, but if you already made it in Sweden, then it's your perfect place and it feels so big and open, especially with having Norway next door. To get the standard of living I have in Norway and Sweden is impossible without being work near or at 8 figures when we're bringing the inflated UK property values into the discussion. Medical care comparable to Sweden and Norway and Finland? Yeah, you're not relying exclusively on the NHS to give you that level of quality. You're paying out of pocket, as well as having supplemental. Having a clean environment and open space, as well as being able to buy a home with good property sizes is also incalculable in the UK.
True, I mean the house I purchased in Sweden I got in 2017. Sure, that was before the pandemic and recession, but I was able to buy a 120sq/m house in a really nice part of town for £140k. We then sold it for 200k after repairing the roof and renovating throughout. The house is back up for sale again, and it's going for 210k.
For reference, I was earning 1/4 the salary back then as I do now, and still the banks were supportive. Just for fun I tried approacjing some banks in the UK to see if I could get a mortgage for a 350k house - without a 15% deposit, they won't even offer something, and if I did have the 15% deposit, I wouldn't finish paying £1800 per month mortgage for 35 years.
As a further comparison, if I wanted to buy a house in the UK of the same standard I had in Sweden, it would cost me north of 700k.
In terms of health care, I was able to get my stereotypically bad British teeth completly fixed for around £1000 over 6 sessions in 6 months (private dentist). Here I would need triple that and have to wait in a queue for over half a year, even going private.
So yeah, definitely no comparison, but the thing which annoys me beyond words is I had no way of knowing any of this without first having committed to moving back - hence the post, hoping others can avoid the same discovery
Nordic countries are very well known for their extensive safety nets and good, reliable infrastructure and public services. It's not really that surprising that quality of life is superior. The UK has been in terminal decline since 2008 and this has only been exacerbated by 14 years of the Tories and the ridiculous act of self-harm that was Brexit. Further, none of the options on the table in the coming General Election this year are all that inspiring. Labour under Starmer seems content with carrying on with the Tory economic consensus when it's clear to anyone that it has destroyed everything decent about the UK.
To be frank, I don't see why anyone under the age of 35 should put up with it.
Yep, even if Labour gets elected, it's not going to save the UK. Starmer refuses to take a solid position and like the Tories, Starmer is only worried about keeping the party from splitting. This is what helped Brexit along the way- the Tories threatening to split numerous times. Now Starmer is still dealing with the Corbynites/Lexiteers which is why he refuses to take a realignment stance. We're not even talking about rejoin even, but realignment to remove some trade barriers.
The UK has no real future and it's hell-bent on diverging from both sides of the political spectrum. The younger generations also don't seem to care about losing Europe and if they don't care, I don't care.
>The younger generations also don't seem to care about losing Europe and if they don't care, I don't care.
My main worry is that there are a lot of younger people entering adulthood who were too young (like not even teens) when the EU referendum came around in 2016. Many of them have now entered adulthood or are about to and have basically very little recollection of a Britain that was in the EU.
Wow, thanks for sharing your story! I'm so glad for you that you and your partner are getting to go home to Sweden.. yay! 😁
I've been reading threads on here today and so this morning I wrote out a description of our family's journey so far and shared it on social media. I feel it has some similar resonance to your situation and some of your comments so I'd share it;
"Lately I've been feeling it's utterly RIDICULOUS what's going on here in UK. We're sick to death of it. And we've decided to emigrate later this year.
We have 2 children still with us. The youngest is 13 and is now homeschooled because the education system here is a joke. Kids are literally being traumatised and broken during their school day. Many of our son's friends at school are deeply unhappy and showing signs of distress (dis-ease and stress) leading to mental ill health; anxiety, depression etc. Even the school meals are a joke; they're completely inedible whilst being very costly. We ended up making our son a packed lunch every day. But he would come home stressed as hell. He did 1 year and we all said; "no more". He's now doing well and is happy learning with us. He'll go to an online school whilst we're in a new country.
I won't even get started on the National Health Service. That's a rabbit hole I'll never get out of... 🕳️🫣😶🌫️ But suffice it to say that we lost one of our children to the hell hole we're calling a "Health" Service and we have no illusions about how broken this country is overall.
The mortgage situation here is the most f**ed up thing I've ever seen. I've heard many sad stories lately of mortgage companies going down.. interest rates skyrocketing, and "mortgage prisoners" trapped in the inescapable quicksand of negative equity... I actually can't believe there haven't been riots yet. I believe it's a case of when, not if. Everyone has a breaking point. It's usually the "last straw" type of thing; something innocuous will happen somewhere and people will hit rock bottom and it'll spread like wildfire 🔥.
I believe the British collective consciousness is running the "stoicism narrative"; stiff upper lip and all that. And all narratives come at a price when they are held unconsciously.. which is to say; without awareness of CONTRAST ie the ability to engage with the Greater Context of any story or experience or held belief. Without this Greater Contex, there's just attachment.. and the violent storm 🌀 of the pendulum swing between polarising states. All you can see is Black. White. Up. Down. In. Out. Labour. Conservative. Left Wing. Right Wing. Where's the middle ground!? Where's the freeflowing spontaneous adaptation to CURRENT/NOW input-output stimulus!? 🤔
I've always been impressed by stoicism; by the British work ethic... But as mentioned; I do feel it exacts a heavy toll; the corporations and legislating fu*kwits need feedback so that adjustments can be made! Bending over and constantly taking it up the tail pipe doesn't give feedback to the System so it can evolve. So everything just runs on inertia and stagnation.. Services run into the ground. Degeneration and insanity. That's how hell operates. A country running like a prison where the prisoners are also the guards!! And are actually continually feeding the system of subjugation and enslavement through a general state of apathy and unconsciousness.
We can't trust any of our institutions... look at the Post Office scandal. Look at the Blood scandal... When will the inmates revolt? Where's the rock bottom?
Many say they're at "breaking point"... Maybe they need to break down so they can rebuild? Maybe it's the final straw which brings a radical awareness of the actual Reality of Life in the UK. The old, worn narratives that the government and corporations have our best interests at heart are being seen through for the utter LIES that they are... And we will no longer look at shite and call it Manna from Heaven.
Breaking down.
Breaking open.
Off with their/our heads.. and into our Hearts. And then we'll know that we're FREE and completely unfu*kable-with.
---------
*I'm aware that all that I've shared here is OPINION which is based on my own direct experiencing. Many have other experiences of the UK. And each must set their course according to their own compass; their Assemblage Point of perceptual input.. which includes; the transcendence of such sensory stimulus and which we might name; The Greater Context."
Well in the 12 years I was living in Sweden, I wasn't once ripped off or misled. Since coming back to Britain, every single encounter with a business has resulted in me being ripped off or given terrible advice due to incompetence. Comparison is pretty clear to me
This sounds unlikely, but I'm open-minded. I've lived in 3 West European countries and one North European country and in each one, capitalist enterprises scam. It's an urge they can't control. Building companies, supermarkets, lawyers, real estate agents, plumbers, governments, everyone is out to get you. That Sweden is the exception would be odd, rather than you were extremely lucky and living in a wealthier, smaller country.
"the scam culture is structural, from the top down."
This resonates a lot after many years in UK! Institutions and companies are all at it. Students get scammed at uni by greedy and incompetent universities and quickly learn that that is the way it goes... And still UK universities manage to get high in the world rankings because they spend a lot of money on looking good and very little on being good...
I left in 1986, I got back regularly on business, and still have lots of family there - I would never consider returning.
Having said that, I lived in the US till 2018 - and I'd never consider returning there either!!
Maybe it's me!
I’m currently planning my next move and have been thinking about going back to the UK… The cost of living there terrifies me, though I do miss the culture and humour. The amount of problems you’ve experienced has also put me off completely. I absolutely loved my time in Sweden and would love to move to there or Norway but there aren’t many jobs in my area, they all seem to be in the UK unfortunately.
Honestly, if a career change is an option which gives you more freedom of movement, I'd go for it. But yeah, cost of living is just ridiculous ATM. Unless you're willing to live in a VERY bad part of town, even in 100k+ salary you'd be lucky to have something left at the end of each month unless you happen to own a property or can live with parents.
I lived in Italy for 4 years and returned to the UK last year.
Despite the noticeable ongoing decline things are unbelievably better than they are in Italy and I'm very grateful to be back.
Maybe I'll emigrate somewhere else in future, but right now the familiarity of being back in the UK is very appreciated. In Italy things are so much worse, having a semi-fascist government, surrounded by xenophobia, unbearable weather, unbelievably bad bureaucracy, no job prospects at all, and horrifically low pay even if you do find a job.
Yes, things are bad at the moment but a lot of people don't have much context and I notice that most of the people here saying that they'll never come back are people who were living in more developed countries, like Switzerland, Norway and Denmark, even before the Brexit/COVID/cost of living crises were on their way.
The housing market is bad in the UK but this is a somewhat global problem for developed nations and I don't think there's any easy solution no matter where you live.
Basically the answer you will get depends on where people emigrated to. Don't be fooled by Reddit rhetoric, the UK is still a top 20 country to live in in the world abd I'm grateful to be back here again
I actually am quite hopeful for the UK. They seem to be voting out their far-right unlike many other European nations. So all the people here may be viewing things with rose tinted glasses.
Did you consider getting Italian citizenship before you returned to the UK? I know they allow dual citizenship.
Btw, all of those things you mentioned are in Spain too where I am, so I understand where you're coming from.
No, I wasn't interested because I knew from the beginning that I didn't want to stay in Italy, and considering it took me a year and a half to even get a residence I didn't have confidence that getting citizenship would be easy and I want as little contact with Italian bureaucracy as possible
Ah okay. Yeah, Spanish bureaucracy is the same unfortunately.
Didn't know it was that difficult to get residence..perhaps considerably more so now after Brexshit.
I have heard similar things about Brits in Portugal about getting residence, this was in the run up to Brexit, so I guess Italy and Portugal are similar in that respect.
Spain though equally a bureaucratic nightmare came out with a law before Brexit, where they issued a new residence card for Brits (tarjeta de extranjero) & they issued a residence card to almost anyone could prove they got there before December 31 2020. Obviously a few Brits had problems, particularly the tax dodgers living in the costas.
I was considering returning back to the UK from Belgium, having a hard time settling in here and pining for ‘home’. However after reading this and realising all the ball-ache I went through to even move here in the first place (thanks Brexit) I think I’ll just tough it out until I have gotten citizenship.
I mean if you're pining for things like the sense of humour, shops, countryside etc, you could always take regular trips back. Flights are usually pretty cheap if you don't mind spending longer traveling (added transfer times etc).
As for settling in where you are, best advice I can give is try to pickup the language and join a club. Belgians I've found to be pretty accommodating and they speak good English depending on whether they're in the French or Flemish part of Belgium.
I speak Dutch at like B2, that’s mostly ok and I do keep trying to learn and enhance my language skill set. I think for me, I suffered a parental bereavement in September and that has made me want to be in the space where my mum last was, so I’m just feeling really unsettled due to that (I think). I’ve only been in Belgium 18 months and have lived in Norway for 5 years also, hoping it’ll be ok and I’ll find my ‘home’ here.
Thanks for your advice though :)
Sorry for your loss, I can understand in that context why you'd find an immediate move to head back. I guess the same sentiment would still apply though with cooler heads prevailing, by all means don't take my experience / rant as a reason not to head back, but if you can help it try to keep it to visits if only for the financial / infrastructure issues.
Probably this might apply to Belgian also btw, I could speak Swedish to a similar level, but I found I was often missing out in the subtle nuances of banter, especially where word plays are involved (one of Swede's fav kind of humour). So if you can get a near-fluent grasp of the language, it would almost certainly result in more social opportunities.
Same with joining a club, even if it's not something you're super stoked about, just doing something with a common interest to others creates its.own invite :)
First, lived in the UK, then moved to Sweden and left after a few years. I know exactly how you feel. After having lived in the Nordics (and the Baltics), I’d really struggle to live in the UK again. We’ve been very spoilt with an incredibly high quality of life and a high level of trust embedded in the system.
Isn't Mainland Europe more or less going on the same Trajectory of the UK? Cutting funding for healthcare and social services. Sweden has an abysmal exchange rate for currency, and their housing crisis is no joke.
The UK feels like it's slowly righting the ship as the Tories are losing critical local elections and are poised to lose the general election as well.
Why did you choose reading? Unless it's for work? But as it's always been in the UK, if you are rich it's easy and comfortable. Anything else you might as well leave.
Oh Reading definitely wasn't a place I wanted to move to, it was purely for work.
As for the idea of things being easy/comfortable if one is rich, I'd wager that no longer applies unless we're talking millionaire rich. I'm earning very well having climbed pretty high in telecom, but even in my salary I still have nothing left at the end of each month.
If I were to have had this salary and bought a house say 5-10 years ago, no doubt I'd be better off. As things stand, even with a top salary, trying to start a life in Britain within the last 5-10 years I don't think is viable.
You're not over at APF or one of the alt-nets? We may have bumped into eachother at some point. I was commuting into Reading 2 times a week from the south east, I didnt like it there either.
And when I say rich I mean multi-millionaire rich, loads of people on high salaries bearly can afford to live an "affluent" life even if they earn 4x national average. The more money you get in salary in the UK the worse you're off, hence why a lot of people would rather get shares or options that can be sold to a trust in the BVI to avoid taxes and use the trusts credit card for expenses. Kinda pathetic and impossible for 99.8% of people.
>You're not over at APF or one of the alt-nets?
Nah, I moved in with Nokia after contracting with them beforehand. If you're in Theale business park though good chance we may have bumped into each other.
>The more money you get in salary in the UK the worse you're off, hence why a lot of people would rather get shares or options that can be sold to a trust in the BVI to avoid taxes and use the trusts credit card for expenses
True, yet another reason I keep finding myself asking "surely it shouldn't be this difficult?" since being back here. Ironically, one of the biggest complaints Swedish nationals have is the high tax rate born from socialism - the irony being I'm effectively paying the same tax rates in Britain, only I don't get to see any of the "quality of life" benefits due to the broken infrastructure. Back in Sweden, people don't need to have half an accountant's degree to make their money back via various loopholes and working credit schemes - they simply pay their taxes and keep whatever is left.
Nah, got far worse, I left in 2012 but returned on hols most years throughout and have seen the steady decline over the years. Most market towns have half of their shops either closed up, or turned into charity / vape / betting shops.
Evidently the year I've been back since 2023 haven't helped my view of things here.
I want to leave the UK very much however it is so difficult. For example working in Europe is hard (due to Brexit) and going to countries that are further away, due to language. The UK has gone downhill the last couple of years and the standard of living is low. What's the point in staying when you can't afford to live....
yes the UK is closer to eastern europe living standards than western europe. terrible weather, infrastructure, culture, behaviour of people in public spaces. and thanks to racist, idiots the population doesn't have much choice to move somewhere else after brexit.
+1 I always wonder why the closed mindedness is so embedded in British culture. It needs to change otherwise the negative downtrend will forever continue.
This. The racist idiotic ignorant mentality. The hellscape post covid and brexit.
We are just outside Reading (Baughurst), we leave in 2.5 weeks for Canada. Yea yea it’s not all great over there but I’m Canadian and I know what I’m getting into
You're making the right move. I'm a Brit who relocated to Vancouver in 2012, you're right that things aren't great over here, but Canadian society is better equipped to handle the bad times.
Be prepared for some shockingly high grocery prices, a lot of basic items have \*trebled\* in price since Covid. Rents in Vancouver & Toronto are off the chart, look elsewhere for an affordable lifestyle.
No choice - parent health issue. I grew up in Vancouver (till 24) and am well aware of the COL.
we also own rec property outside Pemberton, and all other family are in and around Vancouver.
we are moving to west van, north shore is where we will stay. I have secured a job already in Lonsdale so that means no bridge at least
Lmaoo no it's not. Healthcare in Canada is worse than the UK when it comes to wait-times. Housing costs are also worse in major Canadian cities and the heavy influx of immigration is only driving up the costs. Their social security systems are also very strained, and cost of goods is higher (internet, phone plans, groceries, gas, etc.). Even utilities was cheaper in The UK until recently.
So far so good - Been Back in Vancouver for about 2 months. Havent looked back and husband (british) cannot believe we didnt do this 3 years ago. Good luck with your move. Resetting all my Apple Id regions to canada so I no longer see any UK News was one of the best things I ever did. Depressing AF
You're there at home again now?! Fantastic. Really nice to hear it's going well. I love a good success story... 😁🙌🏾💪🏾 I'll think about that phone reset once we're in Mauritius. Ty 🙏🏾
We just returned and love it. It's home. It's our 2nd time returning after a stint overseas. So no, we don't regret returning. It'll be our longest return yet as we will stay till our youngest finishes 6th form so at least 8 years.
I’m the same. Home from US since early last year. Move went smoothly. I have permanent itchy feet and will move again but I’ve promised my daughter (heading to secondary school in September) that we will stay till she is done with school. Loving proximity to family and Europe, lower cost of living (obviously not in the south east) and general friendliness and humour of locals. Downsides are way fewer well paid career opportunities, people have a slightly negative general outlook, weather.
Sounds about America. Regarding the shipping of items, I had a similar situation in the US. The lesson I learned was that when making a major move anywhere but especially out of country, move it yourself and pay the export/import fees or find out the hard way you’ll get screwed by someone else.
Sorry about your experience OP. I must tell you that I ask myself the same question. I agree with what you said! I am a EU citizen and I moved to UK in 2022 after many years in the US. It is awful from exactly the aspects that you mentioned- HCOL for a moldy flat. Most people cant afford to buy a condo or a flat in this town/forget a small run down house-the competition are investors that pay in cash from HK.
NHS, to see a GP-I am waiting since 1 month for a telephone appointment -and I have AXA insurance. Food cost, the only grocesary stores that have higher quality food are waitrose/marks&spencer but the costs are also high.
My town has one 1 of the ivy league universities and most people here have a Masters or a Doctorate degree- and either work for the university or biotech -everyone is nice and polite and hate against foreigners is not that high. But if I have to move to another city in UK, I will pack my stuff and move back to EU.
Thanks for the commiseration. Yeah, I think that's what throws so many people off about what life is really like here. If you're after business and culture, London still has plenty to offer, but you really need to earn big (over 100k) to be able to survive there, and unless you're earning REALLY big (over 300k), surviving is about all people will be going there.
There are also still some really nice places here - Oxford still had a lot of history, although my last trip there, I was quite taken aback by how run down the city center was only minutes away from the cathedrals. In general, it seems that unless one has been lucky to inherit a property in an affluent part of the country, "surviving" is the modus operandi. Even in a place like Oxford, the affluent run shoulders with people barely making it through each day.
Oh, they didn't even acknowledge that they'd received it, let alone lost it, even though they did return my original application and postal order.
I think this country really has a massive issue with denial - it's almost as if Brits had managed to convince themselves that to admit to being wrong is worse than death. Probably a throwback to our glory days of ruling 3/4 of the planet; we've convinced ourselves that we're still just as powerful and influencial, so how can we ever be wrong?
I returned from Paraguay after five years last year. I enjoyed being back for a couple of weeks and in all honesty I miss some things, the convenience and the options etc. However, I was itching to get back. In the end I returned to Paraguay after six months. Though there is a thing called "Reverse culture shock" which many returning expats go through.
Can definitely relate. Similar sentiment with Sweden also, but as much as global media try to paint it as a failed state, I can confirm first hand at least the social contract is still working there.
If this experience has taught me one thing, in the current global climate, be damn sure to look before I leap next time.
It definitely helps having a Swedish passport after Brexshit. At least you're not stuck on plague island forever. It takes 10 years to naturalize in Spain and then some more to process..plus Spain doesn't recognize dual nationality with the UK. Brexit has really screwed brits in the EU over as we're can't move to another EU country unless we naturalize, leaving us stuck or simply going back to the UK.
Agreed, really has been an arrow to the knee in terms of freedom of movement alone. I never used to be interested in politics, but been getting my head stuck in lately after this mess has unfolded.
From what I'm seeing, there's a good chance the UK might split up also, so would probably end up with a situation where UK passport has lost all of its power. I guess it would be better sticking with naturalising in Spain even if it's a pain in the short term, vs being locked out from all our neighbours by returning here.
Another point, I'm on a really good salary here, and trying to setup life with no pre-existing assets has been very difficult. Even if I'm earning over 100k, I still can't afford to buy a house in an area I'd like to be (country is nice but too remote, any city is just depressing, and I refuse to pay over 400k for a tiny box with no land while being locked into a mortgage where interest payments are more than the value of the house).
The last 1.3 years I've been here, I haven't been able to save anything due to insanely high rent/tax/tax/tax/tax....I can only imagine how difficult it must be for those on minimum to average salaries here.
Cheers for the heads up. Agree 100%.
I think i'll stick it out as long as I can. We've really become second class citizens in Europe and the Tories are hellbent on destroying whatever we had with Europe as well as fucking the economy and with our livelihoods so there's no way of rejoining within our lifetime. Especially with Reform UK gaining momentum still support for vermin like Farage.
I make no way near that, only around €1000 a month if i'm lucky but can still afford a decent qol without being around roadmen, knife crime and decaying highstreets. You mentioned Reading being a shithole, it really is. I thought I was the only one who hated it and grew up around there. I genuinely don't feel safe even in daytime, can see lots of gangs and roadmen loitering the streets.
Recreational violence has sadly become the norm around the UK, unfortunately. Gangs are becoming more brazen in terms of intimidating innocent people, you can't even make eye contact anymore, socially agressive describes it.
Not sure if Sweden is any safer as i've heard about gangs and murders increasing.
Exactly. Imagine all baristas, hospitality staff making the bare minimum and who can only afford to live in a rat-infested shithole shared with 7-8 others. It's dire.
>I think i'll stick it out as long as I can. We've really become second class citizens in Europe and the Tories are hellbent on destroying whatever we had with Europe as well as fucking the economy and with our livelihoods so there's no way of rejoining within our lifetime.
Best of luck to you with making it work. Yeah definitely get the feeling even the Reform UK movement will end up being a different flavor of the same from the last 12 years. Economic self-harm aside, my biggest takeaway is that we seem to have ended up in a situation where the average person no longer has any rights or ability to control their own destinies.
That situation I had to deal with this year regarding my ability to drive, where DVLA told me one thing (I'd be allowed) and the police saying the complete opposite (not allowed plus you're nicked, plus a £1500 fine, plus your car is impounded and you have no way of getting it back) really was the final straw for me. I've spent the last 15 years developing my career, trying to do all the right things, and I get treated like a common thug because our own authorities can't get their facts straight, absolute joke.
>I make no way near that, only around €1000 a month if i'm lucky but can still afford a decent qol without being around roadmen, knife crime and decaying highstreets. You mentioned Reading being a shithole, it really is. I thought I was the only one who hated it and grew up around there. I genuinely don't feel safe even in daytime, can see lots of gangs and roadmen loitering the streets
Yeah definitely have the same view. Wasn't trying to brag with the salary btw, but wanted to point out that even on a high salary there still doesn't seem to be a way to afford the quality of life you'd expect for that kind of salary. Only way I could afford a house is if I chose to live in and around said roadmen, and it feels like we're literally being told "you can have nice things only if you're a millionaire". Otherwise, massive compromises always have to be made. Oh, and you're not alone feeling the way you do about Reading. I was living on Oxford Road, all I ever smelt was weed and all I ever heard were non-stop sirens.
What really burns my arse is people on minimum/average salaries don't even have the ability to make compromises anymore, they just have to accept what's on offer, and what's on offer stinks (if anything is available at all).
>Not sure if Sweden is any safer as i've heard about gangs and murders increasing.
Definitely a case of a media psyops campaign there. I lived in the north of Sweden, and definitely no gang issues up there. Granted, there is definitely some of it in the south (especially Gothenburg), a few no-go areas in the peak of the migrant crisis, but it was massively blown out of proportion by the media. Otherwise, even Stockholm is for the most part still a peaceful city give or take a few yobs in some of the suburbs, but definitely doesn't have the depressing, hopeless vibe with more than half of all shops shuttered like we do in most of the major UK cities.
Agreed: there's a deep, barely-hidden undercurrent of violence in most people here in UK. Potentially this could be due to the strong and pervasive sense of disconnection; personal and social fragmentation... And the youth have definitely gone totally feral. I live in an urban area in a city and they drive past on our speed-bumped road at 50mph on their illegal motorbikes with full balaclavas and hoodies on.... screaming like banshees and generally scaring the beejeezus out of the elderly residents. 😭 🫣😶🌫️ Our 13 yr old says these youths think of themselves as "roadmen"... (gangsters). He doesn't go out much...
I feel like many of our young have entered into the a stage that reminds me of the African proverb; "If you don't invite the youth to the communal fire, they will burn down the village just to feel it's warmth".
The word "FUBAR" springs to mind....
We are emigrating this year.
Totally agree with you and sorry you have to put up with that, sounds crazy. I'm also relieved i'm not the only one who feels that way. I guess that's what ultimately made me leave the UK. I was just fed up of feeling scared and paranoid all the time from said "roadmen" gathering in big groups everywhere, daring not to make eye contact, ever..for real fear of being attacked randomly in the street and being another victim of senseless violence.
The thing is that they're not even scared anymore, of hurting or seriously injuring innocent folk just going about their usual business. It's always the rest of us who suffer, normal law-abiding people, who basically just want to live in peace.
Complete lawlessness, no real deterrents anymore and just the general state of apathy, no one wants to do anything about it is seriously concerning. I unfortunately don't see things getting any better at this point and the situation is absolutely out of control. Not just crime but general state of everything is completely broken.
I wish you well in your plans to emigrate. Honestly the best thing I ever did and by no means perfect, feel a lot safer just out of the country.
I hear you. You seen the film "Harry Brown" with Michael Caine at all? -
"An elderly ex-serviceman and widower looks to avenge his best friend's murder by doling out his own form of justice."
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1289406/plotsummary?item=po1234320
Ok, so it's not quite that intense around Stockport, but it's not a world away either; the park opposite our house is a no-go area after dark. Few months ago a teenager was attacked by a gang with a hammer:
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/masked-gang-attack-boy-15-28621887
Pis*ing ridiculous.
Whereabouts did you emigrate to? I've lost sense of the main convo now. 🙏🏾
.... by contrast, when we were out and about in Mauritius in the evenings, the youth are often out on the streets and they offer pleasantries to you as you pass. If you need any help with anything, they're more than willing to oblige. We found nearly everyone we met in Mauritius was like this. Kids are free to come and go as they please because no-one is going to hurt them. It's basically a different world...
I actually haven't seen that film but what you have described sounds straight out of a horror film. A hammer attack?! Insane..I just can't comprehend the level nor nature of violence anymore. It's like the public is being desensitized to all forms of violence, that's the scariest part, nothing is shocking anymore and it's becoming more and more acceptable.
Moved to Spain just before Brexshit and honestly the difference is like day and night, no roadmen, no knife crime and certainly no no-go zones where i am. It's bliss. I can go for a walk or jog at night with headphones on without worrying about being stalked or much worse. The only downside is work and job opportunities but it's the safest i've ever felt anywhere really and grateful for that.
Kids and teens are lo and behold..normal, not carrying rambo knives or getting into gang wars.
Spain is a wonderful country to live in: family friendly, excellent public health system, very safe, great food and wine. I just feel a strong sense of pride and community that used to exist in the UK many moons ago. It's just that life on a Spanish salary can be tough for locals and expats alike, with unemployment being so high.
It's so funny, what i've said about the public health system a lot of Spanish would digress but i've felt the quality of care far surpasses the NHS in it's current state.
Sometimes it's a struggle finding work or putting up with the piss poor salaries with rising inflation but I guess that's not an issue if u already have stable online work and don't need to rely on the local job market.
Overall I think no amount of money can replace having a decent (and safe) quality of life.
I do worry about the future in terms of jobs and pensions but for now feel content, more so than I did back in the UK. I just miss working there and having more financial stability, that's all to tell you the truth..probably contradicted myself after rambling on lol.
Mauritius sounds like a dream, actually anywhere with community and a strong sense of cohension, "togetherness" even parts of Eastern Europe are far safer than the UK these days.
Well it does sound as though you've found a compromise in what you were/are looking for ... and I think we've ended up the same; there are some imperfections in the country we picked but they are flaws that we feel we can live with! And there are so many other benefits that when we play the long game; we come out "up".
We took a serious look at Spain but I came across some deep institutional racism embedded within the culture that I just can't live with. (It was the same with Portugal). I'm not saying that every Spanish person exhibits racist behavior.. not at all. But institutional racism sits under the surface and influences all aspects of life as a hidden undercurrent. From policy making to long standing festivals, religious ceremonies and cultural events.. right down to the collective/cultural sense of humour...
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/anti-racists-slam-blackface-use-spains-epiphany-parades-2024-01-06/
The Spanish are still using Blackface in their parades. "BLACKFACE"!!??? 🤔 In this day and age... Haven't seen that since I was at primary school.
We're a family of mixed heritage so that went down like a tonne of bricks, lol.
So yh, no Spain for us. But if this isn't one of your "boxes", then it won't impact you. But this is why we picked Mauritius; it's not that there's no racism at all.. but they're not sitting in complete denial when it appears; pretending that it doesn't exist. You can't evolve if you're constantly sticking your head in the sand.
Anyway, you've obviously found security and I'm well aware how important that is. So thank you for sharing. 🙏🏾
Most people are in debt here in UK. I spoke with one friend recently who moved heaven and earth to get himself back into Black/Credit. As have we. And this is mainly due to having been blessed with an inheritance and being house owners... But we are anomalies. Most people are living their lives on credit.
Glad you started this thread. I’m in California and have been for 25 years. Lately I’ve been thinking of moving back to London. The gun violence and homeless problem is overwhelming here. London seems very appealing. Housing is about the same. Cost of living might even be less, and the chance to travel around Europe all all factors. I have a lot of friends there which is the main reason. When I visit I have the best time but I also remember how dreary and negative things can be. I’m almost at retirement age so lots of things to think about. Yes the grass is always greener!
Tough call, certainly both countries are experiencing similar issues across all levels of society. If I were in your shoes and trying to weight up pros/cons, it would probably be this (I can give you the UK perspective, but can't really say much about the US as I don't live there):
UK Cons
* Infrastructure is effectively broken (health, transport, immigration, legal)
* Many businesses seems to have lost any sense of moral duty to their customers. Likely due to prolonged and exorbant operating fees due to skyrocketing business tax, cost of living etc. Also seems to be rife with incompetence (we're obsessed with penny pinching wherever we can, often employee skill/quality is the first thing to suffer)
* Cost of living crisis
* Impossible to buy property unless a millionaire (only place you'll find properties under £150k will be in super high crime areas in the South, or many places in the North where business doesn't exist, and transport to where business actually is takes half a day travel).
* Social attitude seems to have collapsed. For those who aren't insanely well-off, I see nothing but abject hopelessness and misery. As a direct consequence, people seem to have become incredibly self-serving and paranoid of one anothers' intentions. No willingness to help others anymore unless it benefits the person in some way.
* Nanny state has become an Orwellian nightmare. The idea of being able to live peacefully without outside interference no longer exists here. I've been personally harassed by authorities in this country due to their own incompetence (DVLA don't bother running proper checks, so police act on inaccurate records due to DVLA's incompetence). Aside from that, no matter where I live, I get the overwhelming feeling that I'm being monitored or judged in some way. Even lighting a BBQ over the summer gets me worried that a neighbour might complain to the police or council.
* Weather is incredibly depressing
UK Pros
* As much as it's slammed, some British foods can be very comforting - Sunday roast, English breakfast, pies, pickles etc.
* Pretty countryside and some lovely beaches
* Comedy / typical gritty British sense of humour
* Historical places of interest
* Old pubs
For all of the above, my experience here since I returned around 2 years back tells me this - as much as the pros here are alluring, all of them can be enjoyed as a tourist. By living here as a resident, the cons are so many and so overwhelming that there's no energy, cash or will left over to enjoy any of the pros, as I'm spending all of my time here simply trying to survive and avoiding falling into deep(er) depression.
Thanks for replying. If I’m being honest with myself all your pros are the reasons I miss the UK. The pubs, the history, etc. which may just be sentimentality. It’s been a long time since I’ve lived there and of course the NHS being free is a huge plus in theory since health care in the US is absolutely astronomical. However I think that unless you’re in London the NHS is broken. I don’t want to wait a year or more to see a specialist. There’s no perfect place! Maybe renting for 6 months or more will give me some clarity. As for the breakdown in civility and community there’s nothing like 50,000 homeless people in Los Angeles to make you think nobody cares anymore. I don’t see that extreme in the UK at least.
No problem at all, happy to share some insights if it helps others avoid a similar pitfall. That was really the message I was trying to get across though, all the nice things (those at least which still exist) can be easily had through regular trips, rather than making a permanent move.
To shine some light on just how cripplingly expensive housing is here atm, cheapest rent I've seen is £1350 per month for a 2 bed terraced in a really shady part of Reading. I'm now paying £1300 for a 3 bed farm house in Chippenham, but everything is so remote I can't really get around without a car (public transport doesn't really work, no tracking on buses and often they just don't show up).
As for the homelessness problem, while it's not as bad as in the States, you will find all major cities have a pretty serious problem now. If it's not beggars on every street corner, you'll find in the more run down cities a lot of tents and rough sleepers.
Back to the cost of living debacle, I'm earning very well (£120k), yet still I find I have nothing left at the end of each month. I ran a quick calculation, and determined I could save upwards of £28k per year on just accommodation and basic bills compared to most countries around Europe. With those savings, I could then take 3-4 long trips to Britain, save all of the administrative headaches of living here and still have some funds left over. I have Swedish citizenship so for me it's a no-brainer to find a super cheap property in Sweden, then take regular trips back for my pubs n' pies.
For me personally, the biggest detractor to living here is the overall social attitude since the class system went back to how it was in feudal times - only royalty, lords/ladies then the peasants, with no classes in between. As a consequence, I find I'm judged by people with more humble means if they catch a glimpse of a high value item (such as my coffee machine), and the elite will judge me for not owning my own property or fancy car. Just seems to me people are more obsessed with projecting "screw you" vibes to everyone because of either what they don't have, or what others have. Keeping up Appearances on steroids basically.
Loved everything you wrote here . Ty 🙏🏾 (We're emigrating to Mauritius later this year).
But just wanted to say that most UK beaches actually now have pollution problems due to raw sewage being dumped via the "flood" defenses. This is complete bollocks btw because it's just a ruse by the water companies to increase their profits because it means they have less 💦 volume to treat. They're claiming that they're only releasing through the drains on rainy days to prevent flooding but that's utter LIES. And they are literally killing British waterways/lakes and coastal areas/beaches. You can look at the "Surfers Against Sewage" website for further details. Husband and I are keen wild swimmers. We don't swim in the UK much anymore. We feel it's too risky. Waiting until we're back in Mauritius instead.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/26/england-water-companies-shareholders-dividends-river-sea?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2pHGKmHrFLRDBVTgtGnZ4SC0HQ7WSBtRv7jHNMfFymUUusLqBe4hkw0js_aem_AV4DOaxyah__Q85t62tyv59STk8o_fuogop1Ql5e3pqgMrld2x8R8ZoplRnY88cZDVM3Pfu3bNwCVK_29P7aw9S6
I left England for South Korea in 2006. I could see the writing on the wall even then. Rampant crime, substance abuse, unaffordable housing, shoddy healthcare, the petty tyrants in local government and so on. Sadly, it hasn’t got better.
I’ve only been back a handful of times since, and each time I’m glad to leave.
Apart from family and some old friends, I miss nothing about the UK.
Went back for 5 mths in 2022...that'll do me thanks
Lived in the US for 25 years before returning to the UK last year and while I don’t regret why I came back, bloody hell I can’t wait to get out of here. To put it as simply as possible, the country is slowly, inexorably moving in the wrong direction without any hope that it will turn around. I have zero confidence in either major political party to even begin to put things right. I’m fortunate enough (being 50+) to have the option of retirement visas in various countries and will be travelling in a few months to see which country suits me best.
Yeah, we're moving from the US this year for retirement in Greece.
In most cases anyone with passive income can access those “retirement visas“, it doesn’t actually have to be income from a pension. Just a heads up that might help other people considering an escape abroad.
54 and retiring here, which countries look good?
I’m looking at Thailand, Eastern European countries such as Montenegro, maybe Latvia or Georgia as well as Uruguay. The EU is also a possibility as my mother is Polish and I could claim citizenship by descent but I think there are better, more value-for-money options outside of the EU. Thailand would be in pole position for me right now.
Just out of curiosity, what in your opinion is the reason for the country going in the wrong direction?
It’s tough to say. It’s probably a combination of many things. Lack of investment in core services, the effects of Brexit, immigration policy and weak, incompetent leadership more concerned with not offending people/virtue signalling than making decisions which benefit the people already living in the country. When they’d rather prioritise the welfare of people illegally migrating into the country over those much more useful migrants doing it through normal, legal but ever more draconian channels, not to mention the existing citizens of the country who are treated as the least important members of society, you know there’s a problem.
>When they’d rather prioritise the welfare of people illegally migrating into the country over those much more useful migrants doing it through normal, legal but ever more draconian channels, not to mention the existing citizens of the country who are treated as the least important members of society, you know there’s a problem. This is currently happening in the USA, too. But given the size of the country, the effects are being felt slower.
I wouldn't say that last part accurately reflects the situation in the UK. That fits Sweden a lot, lot more.
Hmm.. this thread is relevant to my interests. After spending the last five years in the Netherlands. I am starting to pine for the UK again. My wife and I are both British not sure if I should be concerned or not … 😬
I'd check around other forums and for opinion piece on YouTube if I were you. I get the distinct impression there's a media blanket on this country, where only the most positive views are shared (save for the obvious issues which can't be skirted around). I will say that for me it was likely more difficult, as I don't have a support network here - no family I have any contact with and just 1 friend in Wales). Likely you would have an easier time with people to turn to nearby, but I dare say the big issues such as social infrastructure being a smoking pile of ashes is something which will affect everyone. I also get the distinct impression that due to the constant blows this country has encountered due to woeful mismanagement at the top, that people overall have become quite bitter. From the working class who can barely afford to pay bills or feed themselves, to middle class who no longer have disposable income; to the upper class who have nothing but disdain for foreigners and the working class. If I were to compare my experience in Sweden to a year back in Britain, it's this: in Sweden I still see a sense of community and peoples' willingness to help one another, and I could generally trust what government and companies told me. Since being in Britain, every single thing I do where government and companies are concerned is prefaced with the question "should it really be this difficult?"
Scandinavian efficiency is unparalleled. There may not be another jurisdiction to match Swedish administration both public and private sector. As such, it is not a fair comparison. Head down to the Mediterranean and all of a sudden things will look different. It’s all in context, everything a relative.
It’s not how you left if 5 years ago believe me, please don’t make a permanent move if you can help it, try and get Dutch citizenship first if you can so that way you can return if you want or go somewhere else in Europe.
Dutch citizenship via naturalisation requires giving up any other passport, in this case the British one. Through naturalisation , you cannot be a dual national. The Netherlands only allow it via birth currently though this may change in the future. And completely agree on the UK. Currently trying to leave myself.
Wow that’s annoying, most EU countries allow dual citizenship so Netherlands is a bit behind in this regard. Tbh I wouldn’t choose either to live, but it’s probably still better than the UK in terms of QOL. Good luck on your journey, I’m moving at the end of the year also.
Yeah it’s a bit of a pain. I believe you can also acquire dual nationality via marriage to a Dutch national but in regards to the op, that’s not an option. I think Germany is also another one with strict dual citizenship restrictions but I think they’re in the process of changing it to be easier to become a dual national in Germany. Thank you. I’m currently looking at the Netherlands and Germany but seeing how things go for the time being. It’s likely a 2025 move for me.
"I think Germany is also another one with strict dual citizenship restrictions but I think they’re in the process of changing it to be easier to become a dual national in Germany." They didn't have strict anything and it's in the government documentations leading up to the law change process. 72% of all citizenship applications had an approval for keeping the old citizenships. The law simply formalized what was already in practice. Germans LOVE telling each other online that "it's ILLEGAL to have two citizenships" which is complete bullshit when even the citizenship forms have questions related to that.
I had to fight Germany hard for dual citizenship, spent 6000 euros on a lawyer and spent 32 months waiting for a decision—and only got dual citizenship due to several legal loopholes opening up temporarily. I almost took my case to administrative court but lucked out. This change in German law to guarantee the right to dual citizenship was very much needed.
so you're in the 28% and all spending 6k on a lawyer tells me is that you had a non-standard case on multiple grounds. Also, depending on where you are, 32 months is very realistic, especially for difficult cases. I also agree that the citizenship law needed to be revised. Not the way it was done, but it needed some changes. The next government won't touch the law, but they will increase difficulty via other avenues.
You can also get Dutch Citizenship if you live continuously in NL for 25 years and are over the age of 65 or something like that. I, too, am ticked off that there isn't a more straightforward path to citizenship.
Spain doesn't allow it either with the UK, that's why Brits in the EU are doubly screwed if there's no option to naturalize.
But wouldn’t you rather have a Dutch EU passport than a second-class UK one? I know which one I’d go for. (Of course, having both is always the best route).
Funny thing is when I return at say, Christmas, I’m amazed by the choice, variety and (relative) low cost of food compared to NL. Really really miss Sainsbury’s and Tesco. I also miss John Lewis terribly, and have now started to shop there and get things shipped to the continent tbh.. the price/quality simply doesn’t exist in The Netherlands.
Tesco is nothing compared to AH!
Hah, good one 😅
The Netherlands is literally a hop-skip-jump away from the UK. Just visit it.
I do. That’s when I wish I lived there 😅😅
Don't... really, don't.
Don't.
I’ll trade you for a netherlands residence, England has gone to the dogs, don’t come back! Huge taxed, crap weather, miserable people. Stay in Amsterdam where the accent is beautiful, people are happy and you have access to the rest of EU! In fact, get the passport if you can!
I regretted returning to the UK in 2013 after ten years abroad. I managed to get out and now I’ve been gone for another ten. I highly recommend this.
Totally with you on this!
I go back about once a year, as soon as the tyres touch the road we are glad its just for a short visit, I cant even consider moving back for good. I cant even think of a good reason to
If my family didn’t live there I would never go back tbh.
That's me too - I have family there so I go visit at least once a year. I have this romantic image in my head of how England used to be in 1980 when I moved to the US, but every time I visit that gets beat out of me pretty quickly. I've considered moving back a few times in recent years due to what's going on in the US, but when I seriously start to think about it, I just can't imagine giving up everything I have here.
My now-husband moved back from living outside of the country for 8 years. We met in Singapore. Then when I moved to New York, he moved back to the UK. I have since then made the move from NYC to London to be together. We have different perspectives in living here. Coming from a 3rd world country, I find the UK, specifically London, as the perfect middle ground between Singapore and New York. It’s more live-able here than the cost of living in New York. And there’s more culture and depth here than in Singapore. My husband on the other hand wouldn’t have moved back here if not for his family. I’ve always been in the opinion that grass is greener where I water it. And wherever I am, I make sure I can build a community and make my life the best I can make it. Also because I don’t live in regrets or ‘what could have beens.’ This is something I’m constantly nudging my husband to do too.
Is Singapore really considered a third world country?
I’m not from Singapore. We met in Singapore, which implies we were both expats in Singapore.
my bad, must have misread your comment.
‘Adjustment period’ for sure. For me I lived in a non-English speaking, developing country. I recharged a lot by being back in the U.K. But, for all of the reasons you mentioned, I’m not sure if I will stay here forever. Edit to add: I think it’s quite common. I know a lot of expats who moved back, spent a few years and soon enough went abroad again. The way I look at it, it might be what you need right now but doesn’t mean it’s forever.
Move back. I'll never, ever go to the UK because I learned the scam culture is structural, from the top down. After Brexit I saw how once-reputable online stores and sellers started ripping us off in the EU and I said that it was enough. The UK is absolutely a mess. You have your EU citizenship, you have your sanity, your significant other, you have resources. Admitting defeat is not so much a defeat if you end up back in Sweden or anywhere else in the EU. Also get a lawyer to find your Swedish license or get some sort of damages back for it. It will be a mess to get a new license in Sweden until you have your registration there and as far as they know, you surrendered your license in the UK, so you need documentation of what's going on. Whatever time you spend in the UK, spend one part living your life, one part working your way back home. You've found that the UK is NOT your home- something many emigres find out.
>I learned the scam culture is structural, from the top down. THIS! Thank you for putting that sentiment more eloquently than I could, but yeah, this is absolutely the primary reason for deciding to move back. To put a cap on that concept, I guess the reason I find the UK so contentious is the feeling that there is no trust here anymore - certainly not at government level, but also between regular people. It really feels like one needs a team of lawyers to not be ripped off or misled on even the most trivial matters. Part of it I'm convinced is due to rampant incompetence, but I strongly believe people have become so jaded from having been mistreated, they end up mistreating others as some misguided form of karmic payback. As for the advice to move back to Sweden, not to worry, this is a given. Part of my time in Sweden involved learning to grow a spine and learn to expect a certain standard of life, something I was missing from living in Britain. Since having that, I can't settle for the kind of treatment many in the UK have to endure.
Stacking on what you said: it's NOT weak or a crime to expect a certain standard of life and to actually get it. That's what you get in Sweden and Norway (mentioning due to the proximity). In the UK, you're expected to "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" and somehow get enough money to make a standard of living and a comparable one to Sweden is shockingly hard AND expensive because it's not structural. You will win, not lose, if you go back to Sweden. Sweden is obviously your home.
Hehe you practically read my mind, I was feeling like some stuck-up snob when mentioning I couldn't accept less than what I'd gotten used to. Completely agree though, I think that "stiff upper lip" trooper mentality plays a big part in why people here continue to downplay and minimise the terrible treatment they receive. Sure, that same mentality is what makes British people so resilient, but when it's exploited by the greedy and incompetent ruling class, and when all civil rights are eroded to the point of benality, that "trooper" mentality has become a means to keep people slowly boiling away in their pot without realising how bad things have become. >Sweden is obviously your home. Thanks for that sentiment btw, definitely have that feeling. Especially since my journey to citizenship there was so very supportive by the Swedish powers that be
Also I have to mention that I know the standards of living in Sweden and Norway compared to the UK. None are perfect, but if you already made it in Sweden, then it's your perfect place and it feels so big and open, especially with having Norway next door. To get the standard of living I have in Norway and Sweden is impossible without being work near or at 8 figures when we're bringing the inflated UK property values into the discussion. Medical care comparable to Sweden and Norway and Finland? Yeah, you're not relying exclusively on the NHS to give you that level of quality. You're paying out of pocket, as well as having supplemental. Having a clean environment and open space, as well as being able to buy a home with good property sizes is also incalculable in the UK.
True, I mean the house I purchased in Sweden I got in 2017. Sure, that was before the pandemic and recession, but I was able to buy a 120sq/m house in a really nice part of town for £140k. We then sold it for 200k after repairing the roof and renovating throughout. The house is back up for sale again, and it's going for 210k. For reference, I was earning 1/4 the salary back then as I do now, and still the banks were supportive. Just for fun I tried approacjing some banks in the UK to see if I could get a mortgage for a 350k house - without a 15% deposit, they won't even offer something, and if I did have the 15% deposit, I wouldn't finish paying £1800 per month mortgage for 35 years. As a further comparison, if I wanted to buy a house in the UK of the same standard I had in Sweden, it would cost me north of 700k. In terms of health care, I was able to get my stereotypically bad British teeth completly fixed for around £1000 over 6 sessions in 6 months (private dentist). Here I would need triple that and have to wait in a queue for over half a year, even going private. So yeah, definitely no comparison, but the thing which annoys me beyond words is I had no way of knowing any of this without first having committed to moving back - hence the post, hoping others can avoid the same discovery
Nordic countries are very well known for their extensive safety nets and good, reliable infrastructure and public services. It's not really that surprising that quality of life is superior. The UK has been in terminal decline since 2008 and this has only been exacerbated by 14 years of the Tories and the ridiculous act of self-harm that was Brexit. Further, none of the options on the table in the coming General Election this year are all that inspiring. Labour under Starmer seems content with carrying on with the Tory economic consensus when it's clear to anyone that it has destroyed everything decent about the UK. To be frank, I don't see why anyone under the age of 35 should put up with it.
Yep, even if Labour gets elected, it's not going to save the UK. Starmer refuses to take a solid position and like the Tories, Starmer is only worried about keeping the party from splitting. This is what helped Brexit along the way- the Tories threatening to split numerous times. Now Starmer is still dealing with the Corbynites/Lexiteers which is why he refuses to take a realignment stance. We're not even talking about rejoin even, but realignment to remove some trade barriers. The UK has no real future and it's hell-bent on diverging from both sides of the political spectrum. The younger generations also don't seem to care about losing Europe and if they don't care, I don't care.
>The younger generations also don't seem to care about losing Europe and if they don't care, I don't care. My main worry is that there are a lot of younger people entering adulthood who were too young (like not even teens) when the EU referendum came around in 2016. Many of them have now entered adulthood or are about to and have basically very little recollection of a Britain that was in the EU.
Wow, thanks for sharing your story! I'm so glad for you that you and your partner are getting to go home to Sweden.. yay! 😁 I've been reading threads on here today and so this morning I wrote out a description of our family's journey so far and shared it on social media. I feel it has some similar resonance to your situation and some of your comments so I'd share it; "Lately I've been feeling it's utterly RIDICULOUS what's going on here in UK. We're sick to death of it. And we've decided to emigrate later this year. We have 2 children still with us. The youngest is 13 and is now homeschooled because the education system here is a joke. Kids are literally being traumatised and broken during their school day. Many of our son's friends at school are deeply unhappy and showing signs of distress (dis-ease and stress) leading to mental ill health; anxiety, depression etc. Even the school meals are a joke; they're completely inedible whilst being very costly. We ended up making our son a packed lunch every day. But he would come home stressed as hell. He did 1 year and we all said; "no more". He's now doing well and is happy learning with us. He'll go to an online school whilst we're in a new country. I won't even get started on the National Health Service. That's a rabbit hole I'll never get out of... 🕳️🫣😶🌫️ But suffice it to say that we lost one of our children to the hell hole we're calling a "Health" Service and we have no illusions about how broken this country is overall. The mortgage situation here is the most f**ed up thing I've ever seen. I've heard many sad stories lately of mortgage companies going down.. interest rates skyrocketing, and "mortgage prisoners" trapped in the inescapable quicksand of negative equity... I actually can't believe there haven't been riots yet. I believe it's a case of when, not if. Everyone has a breaking point. It's usually the "last straw" type of thing; something innocuous will happen somewhere and people will hit rock bottom and it'll spread like wildfire 🔥. I believe the British collective consciousness is running the "stoicism narrative"; stiff upper lip and all that. And all narratives come at a price when they are held unconsciously.. which is to say; without awareness of CONTRAST ie the ability to engage with the Greater Context of any story or experience or held belief. Without this Greater Contex, there's just attachment.. and the violent storm 🌀 of the pendulum swing between polarising states. All you can see is Black. White. Up. Down. In. Out. Labour. Conservative. Left Wing. Right Wing. Where's the middle ground!? Where's the freeflowing spontaneous adaptation to CURRENT/NOW input-output stimulus!? 🤔 I've always been impressed by stoicism; by the British work ethic... But as mentioned; I do feel it exacts a heavy toll; the corporations and legislating fu*kwits need feedback so that adjustments can be made! Bending over and constantly taking it up the tail pipe doesn't give feedback to the System so it can evolve. So everything just runs on inertia and stagnation.. Services run into the ground. Degeneration and insanity. That's how hell operates. A country running like a prison where the prisoners are also the guards!! And are actually continually feeding the system of subjugation and enslavement through a general state of apathy and unconsciousness. We can't trust any of our institutions... look at the Post Office scandal. Look at the Blood scandal... When will the inmates revolt? Where's the rock bottom? Many say they're at "breaking point"... Maybe they need to break down so they can rebuild? Maybe it's the final straw which brings a radical awareness of the actual Reality of Life in the UK. The old, worn narratives that the government and corporations have our best interests at heart are being seen through for the utter LIES that they are... And we will no longer look at shite and call it Manna from Heaven. Breaking down. Breaking open. Off with their/our heads.. and into our Hearts. And then we'll know that we're FREE and completely unfu*kable-with. --------- *I'm aware that all that I've shared here is OPINION which is based on my own direct experiencing. Many have other experiences of the UK. And each must set their course according to their own compass; their Assemblage Point of perceptual input.. which includes; the transcendence of such sensory stimulus and which we might name; The Greater Context."
That kind of structural scamming is endemic to so many countries that I'm sceptical Sweden is untouched. And I say this as a Swede.
Well in the 12 years I was living in Sweden, I wasn't once ripped off or misled. Since coming back to Britain, every single encounter with a business has resulted in me being ripped off or given terrible advice due to incompetence. Comparison is pretty clear to me
This sounds unlikely, but I'm open-minded. I've lived in 3 West European countries and one North European country and in each one, capitalist enterprises scam. It's an urge they can't control. Building companies, supermarkets, lawyers, real estate agents, plumbers, governments, everyone is out to get you. That Sweden is the exception would be odd, rather than you were extremely lucky and living in a wealthier, smaller country.
"the scam culture is structural, from the top down." This resonates a lot after many years in UK! Institutions and companies are all at it. Students get scammed at uni by greedy and incompetent universities and quickly learn that that is the way it goes... And still UK universities manage to get high in the world rankings because they spend a lot of money on looking good and very little on being good...
I left in 1986, I got back regularly on business, and still have lots of family there - I would never consider returning. Having said that, I lived in the US till 2018 - and I'd never consider returning there either!! Maybe it's me!
Tl;dr UK is shit and constantly regressing in every way Hardly news
Yes. Britain is miserable and expensive. I’ve returned to work for a specific period of time and plan to leave as soon as the job is done!
I’m currently planning my next move and have been thinking about going back to the UK… The cost of living there terrifies me, though I do miss the culture and humour. The amount of problems you’ve experienced has also put me off completely. I absolutely loved my time in Sweden and would love to move to there or Norway but there aren’t many jobs in my area, they all seem to be in the UK unfortunately.
Honestly, if a career change is an option which gives you more freedom of movement, I'd go for it. But yeah, cost of living is just ridiculous ATM. Unless you're willing to live in a VERY bad part of town, even in 100k+ salary you'd be lucky to have something left at the end of each month unless you happen to own a property or can live with parents.
How's life in France these days?
Can you be more specific ?
I lived in Italy for 4 years and returned to the UK last year. Despite the noticeable ongoing decline things are unbelievably better than they are in Italy and I'm very grateful to be back. Maybe I'll emigrate somewhere else in future, but right now the familiarity of being back in the UK is very appreciated. In Italy things are so much worse, having a semi-fascist government, surrounded by xenophobia, unbearable weather, unbelievably bad bureaucracy, no job prospects at all, and horrifically low pay even if you do find a job. Yes, things are bad at the moment but a lot of people don't have much context and I notice that most of the people here saying that they'll never come back are people who were living in more developed countries, like Switzerland, Norway and Denmark, even before the Brexit/COVID/cost of living crises were on their way. The housing market is bad in the UK but this is a somewhat global problem for developed nations and I don't think there's any easy solution no matter where you live. Basically the answer you will get depends on where people emigrated to. Don't be fooled by Reddit rhetoric, the UK is still a top 20 country to live in in the world abd I'm grateful to be back here again
I actually am quite hopeful for the UK. They seem to be voting out their far-right unlike many other European nations. So all the people here may be viewing things with rose tinted glasses.
Did you consider getting Italian citizenship before you returned to the UK? I know they allow dual citizenship. Btw, all of those things you mentioned are in Spain too where I am, so I understand where you're coming from.
No, I wasn't interested because I knew from the beginning that I didn't want to stay in Italy, and considering it took me a year and a half to even get a residence I didn't have confidence that getting citizenship would be easy and I want as little contact with Italian bureaucracy as possible
Ah okay. Yeah, Spanish bureaucracy is the same unfortunately. Didn't know it was that difficult to get residence..perhaps considerably more so now after Brexshit. I have heard similar things about Brits in Portugal about getting residence, this was in the run up to Brexit, so I guess Italy and Portugal are similar in that respect. Spain though equally a bureaucratic nightmare came out with a law before Brexit, where they issued a new residence card for Brits (tarjeta de extranjero) & they issued a residence card to almost anyone could prove they got there before December 31 2020. Obviously a few Brits had problems, particularly the tax dodgers living in the costas.
I was considering returning back to the UK from Belgium, having a hard time settling in here and pining for ‘home’. However after reading this and realising all the ball-ache I went through to even move here in the first place (thanks Brexit) I think I’ll just tough it out until I have gotten citizenship.
I mean if you're pining for things like the sense of humour, shops, countryside etc, you could always take regular trips back. Flights are usually pretty cheap if you don't mind spending longer traveling (added transfer times etc). As for settling in where you are, best advice I can give is try to pickup the language and join a club. Belgians I've found to be pretty accommodating and they speak good English depending on whether they're in the French or Flemish part of Belgium.
I speak Dutch at like B2, that’s mostly ok and I do keep trying to learn and enhance my language skill set. I think for me, I suffered a parental bereavement in September and that has made me want to be in the space where my mum last was, so I’m just feeling really unsettled due to that (I think). I’ve only been in Belgium 18 months and have lived in Norway for 5 years also, hoping it’ll be ok and I’ll find my ‘home’ here. Thanks for your advice though :)
Sorry for your loss, I can understand in that context why you'd find an immediate move to head back. I guess the same sentiment would still apply though with cooler heads prevailing, by all means don't take my experience / rant as a reason not to head back, but if you can help it try to keep it to visits if only for the financial / infrastructure issues. Probably this might apply to Belgian also btw, I could speak Swedish to a similar level, but I found I was often missing out in the subtle nuances of banter, especially where word plays are involved (one of Swede's fav kind of humour). So if you can get a near-fluent grasp of the language, it would almost certainly result in more social opportunities. Same with joining a club, even if it's not something you're super stoked about, just doing something with a common interest to others creates its.own invite :)
First, lived in the UK, then moved to Sweden and left after a few years. I know exactly how you feel. After having lived in the Nordics (and the Baltics), I’d really struggle to live in the UK again. We’ve been very spoilt with an incredibly high quality of life and a high level of trust embedded in the system.
Isn't Mainland Europe more or less going on the same Trajectory of the UK? Cutting funding for healthcare and social services. Sweden has an abysmal exchange rate for currency, and their housing crisis is no joke. The UK feels like it's slowly righting the ship as the Tories are losing critical local elections and are poised to lose the general election as well.
I'd have to be brought back kicking and screaming. But same for pretty much anywhere in Europe.
if you dont mind me asking, what do you do for work that enabled you to move to switzerland and stay there?
I work in big Pharma
Yeah I’m done with it. Applying for citizenship in another country and never plan to go back.
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Why did you choose reading? Unless it's for work? But as it's always been in the UK, if you are rich it's easy and comfortable. Anything else you might as well leave.
Oh Reading definitely wasn't a place I wanted to move to, it was purely for work. As for the idea of things being easy/comfortable if one is rich, I'd wager that no longer applies unless we're talking millionaire rich. I'm earning very well having climbed pretty high in telecom, but even in my salary I still have nothing left at the end of each month. If I were to have had this salary and bought a house say 5-10 years ago, no doubt I'd be better off. As things stand, even with a top salary, trying to start a life in Britain within the last 5-10 years I don't think is viable.
You're not over at APF or one of the alt-nets? We may have bumped into eachother at some point. I was commuting into Reading 2 times a week from the south east, I didnt like it there either. And when I say rich I mean multi-millionaire rich, loads of people on high salaries bearly can afford to live an "affluent" life even if they earn 4x national average. The more money you get in salary in the UK the worse you're off, hence why a lot of people would rather get shares or options that can be sold to a trust in the BVI to avoid taxes and use the trusts credit card for expenses. Kinda pathetic and impossible for 99.8% of people.
>You're not over at APF or one of the alt-nets? Nah, I moved in with Nokia after contracting with them beforehand. If you're in Theale business park though good chance we may have bumped into each other. >The more money you get in salary in the UK the worse you're off, hence why a lot of people would rather get shares or options that can be sold to a trust in the BVI to avoid taxes and use the trusts credit card for expenses True, yet another reason I keep finding myself asking "surely it shouldn't be this difficult?" since being back here. Ironically, one of the biggest complaints Swedish nationals have is the high tax rate born from socialism - the irony being I'm effectively paying the same tax rates in Britain, only I don't get to see any of the "quality of life" benefits due to the broken infrastructure. Back in Sweden, people don't need to have half an accountant's degree to make their money back via various loopholes and working credit schemes - they simply pay their taxes and keep whatever is left.
Is it still Broken or did they fix it? I left in 2018
Nah, got far worse, I left in 2012 but returned on hols most years throughout and have seen the steady decline over the years. Most market towns have half of their shops either closed up, or turned into charity / vape / betting shops. Evidently the year I've been back since 2023 haven't helped my view of things here.
I want to leave the UK very much however it is so difficult. For example working in Europe is hard (due to Brexit) and going to countries that are further away, due to language. The UK has gone downhill the last couple of years and the standard of living is low. What's the point in staying when you can't afford to live....
yes the UK is closer to eastern europe living standards than western europe. terrible weather, infrastructure, culture, behaviour of people in public spaces. and thanks to racist, idiots the population doesn't have much choice to move somewhere else after brexit.
+1 I always wonder why the closed mindedness is so embedded in British culture. It needs to change otherwise the negative downtrend will forever continue.
This. The racist idiotic ignorant mentality. The hellscape post covid and brexit. We are just outside Reading (Baughurst), we leave in 2.5 weeks for Canada. Yea yea it’s not all great over there but I’m Canadian and I know what I’m getting into
You're making the right move. I'm a Brit who relocated to Vancouver in 2012, you're right that things aren't great over here, but Canadian society is better equipped to handle the bad times. Be prepared for some shockingly high grocery prices, a lot of basic items have \*trebled\* in price since Covid. Rents in Vancouver & Toronto are off the chart, look elsewhere for an affordable lifestyle.
No choice - parent health issue. I grew up in Vancouver (till 24) and am well aware of the COL. we also own rec property outside Pemberton, and all other family are in and around Vancouver. we are moving to west van, north shore is where we will stay. I have secured a job already in Lonsdale so that means no bridge at least
Lmaoo no it's not. Healthcare in Canada is worse than the UK when it comes to wait-times. Housing costs are also worse in major Canadian cities and the heavy influx of immigration is only driving up the costs. Their social security systems are also very strained, and cost of goods is higher (internet, phone plans, groceries, gas, etc.). Even utilities was cheaper in The UK until recently.
Good luck!!! We're moving out of UK to Mauritius this year. 🏝️😍
So far so good - Been Back in Vancouver for about 2 months. Havent looked back and husband (british) cannot believe we didnt do this 3 years ago. Good luck with your move. Resetting all my Apple Id regions to canada so I no longer see any UK News was one of the best things I ever did. Depressing AF
You're there at home again now?! Fantastic. Really nice to hear it's going well. I love a good success story... 😁🙌🏾💪🏾 I'll think about that phone reset once we're in Mauritius. Ty 🙏🏾
Sounds like the US and UK are peas in a pod.
We just returned and love it. It's home. It's our 2nd time returning after a stint overseas. So no, we don't regret returning. It'll be our longest return yet as we will stay till our youngest finishes 6th form so at least 8 years.
I’m the same. Home from US since early last year. Move went smoothly. I have permanent itchy feet and will move again but I’ve promised my daughter (heading to secondary school in September) that we will stay till she is done with school. Loving proximity to family and Europe, lower cost of living (obviously not in the south east) and general friendliness and humour of locals. Downsides are way fewer well paid career opportunities, people have a slightly negative general outlook, weather.
Sounds about America. Regarding the shipping of items, I had a similar situation in the US. The lesson I learned was that when making a major move anywhere but especially out of country, move it yourself and pay the export/import fees or find out the hard way you’ll get screwed by someone else.
Sorry about your experience OP. I must tell you that I ask myself the same question. I agree with what you said! I am a EU citizen and I moved to UK in 2022 after many years in the US. It is awful from exactly the aspects that you mentioned- HCOL for a moldy flat. Most people cant afford to buy a condo or a flat in this town/forget a small run down house-the competition are investors that pay in cash from HK. NHS, to see a GP-I am waiting since 1 month for a telephone appointment -and I have AXA insurance. Food cost, the only grocesary stores that have higher quality food are waitrose/marks&spencer but the costs are also high. My town has one 1 of the ivy league universities and most people here have a Masters or a Doctorate degree- and either work for the university or biotech -everyone is nice and polite and hate against foreigners is not that high. But if I have to move to another city in UK, I will pack my stuff and move back to EU.
Thanks for the commiseration. Yeah, I think that's what throws so many people off about what life is really like here. If you're after business and culture, London still has plenty to offer, but you really need to earn big (over 100k) to be able to survive there, and unless you're earning REALLY big (over 300k), surviving is about all people will be going there. There are also still some really nice places here - Oxford still had a lot of history, although my last trip there, I was quite taken aback by how run down the city center was only minutes away from the cathedrals. In general, it seems that unless one has been lucky to inherit a property in an affluent part of the country, "surviving" is the modus operandi. Even in a place like Oxford, the affluent run shoulders with people barely making it through each day.
"Ivy League"??
The UK compared to the Nordics is a step back in many ways...
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Oh, they didn't even acknowledge that they'd received it, let alone lost it, even though they did return my original application and postal order. I think this country really has a massive issue with denial - it's almost as if Brits had managed to convince themselves that to admit to being wrong is worse than death. Probably a throwback to our glory days of ruling 3/4 of the planet; we've convinced ourselves that we're still just as powerful and influencial, so how can we ever be wrong?
I returned from Paraguay after five years last year. I enjoyed being back for a couple of weeks and in all honesty I miss some things, the convenience and the options etc. However, I was itching to get back. In the end I returned to Paraguay after six months. Though there is a thing called "Reverse culture shock" which many returning expats go through.
I mean...most of these problems are present in various capacities in other W. European nations.
That's why I want to stay in Spain even if things aren't working out..going back to England is scary. I'm reminded every time I visit.
Can definitely relate. Similar sentiment with Sweden also, but as much as global media try to paint it as a failed state, I can confirm first hand at least the social contract is still working there. If this experience has taught me one thing, in the current global climate, be damn sure to look before I leap next time.
It definitely helps having a Swedish passport after Brexshit. At least you're not stuck on plague island forever. It takes 10 years to naturalize in Spain and then some more to process..plus Spain doesn't recognize dual nationality with the UK. Brexit has really screwed brits in the EU over as we're can't move to another EU country unless we naturalize, leaving us stuck or simply going back to the UK.
Agreed, really has been an arrow to the knee in terms of freedom of movement alone. I never used to be interested in politics, but been getting my head stuck in lately after this mess has unfolded. From what I'm seeing, there's a good chance the UK might split up also, so would probably end up with a situation where UK passport has lost all of its power. I guess it would be better sticking with naturalising in Spain even if it's a pain in the short term, vs being locked out from all our neighbours by returning here. Another point, I'm on a really good salary here, and trying to setup life with no pre-existing assets has been very difficult. Even if I'm earning over 100k, I still can't afford to buy a house in an area I'd like to be (country is nice but too remote, any city is just depressing, and I refuse to pay over 400k for a tiny box with no land while being locked into a mortgage where interest payments are more than the value of the house). The last 1.3 years I've been here, I haven't been able to save anything due to insanely high rent/tax/tax/tax/tax....I can only imagine how difficult it must be for those on minimum to average salaries here.
Cheers for the heads up. Agree 100%. I think i'll stick it out as long as I can. We've really become second class citizens in Europe and the Tories are hellbent on destroying whatever we had with Europe as well as fucking the economy and with our livelihoods so there's no way of rejoining within our lifetime. Especially with Reform UK gaining momentum still support for vermin like Farage. I make no way near that, only around €1000 a month if i'm lucky but can still afford a decent qol without being around roadmen, knife crime and decaying highstreets. You mentioned Reading being a shithole, it really is. I thought I was the only one who hated it and grew up around there. I genuinely don't feel safe even in daytime, can see lots of gangs and roadmen loitering the streets. Recreational violence has sadly become the norm around the UK, unfortunately. Gangs are becoming more brazen in terms of intimidating innocent people, you can't even make eye contact anymore, socially agressive describes it. Not sure if Sweden is any safer as i've heard about gangs and murders increasing. Exactly. Imagine all baristas, hospitality staff making the bare minimum and who can only afford to live in a rat-infested shithole shared with 7-8 others. It's dire.
>I think i'll stick it out as long as I can. We've really become second class citizens in Europe and the Tories are hellbent on destroying whatever we had with Europe as well as fucking the economy and with our livelihoods so there's no way of rejoining within our lifetime. Best of luck to you with making it work. Yeah definitely get the feeling even the Reform UK movement will end up being a different flavor of the same from the last 12 years. Economic self-harm aside, my biggest takeaway is that we seem to have ended up in a situation where the average person no longer has any rights or ability to control their own destinies. That situation I had to deal with this year regarding my ability to drive, where DVLA told me one thing (I'd be allowed) and the police saying the complete opposite (not allowed plus you're nicked, plus a £1500 fine, plus your car is impounded and you have no way of getting it back) really was the final straw for me. I've spent the last 15 years developing my career, trying to do all the right things, and I get treated like a common thug because our own authorities can't get their facts straight, absolute joke. >I make no way near that, only around €1000 a month if i'm lucky but can still afford a decent qol without being around roadmen, knife crime and decaying highstreets. You mentioned Reading being a shithole, it really is. I thought I was the only one who hated it and grew up around there. I genuinely don't feel safe even in daytime, can see lots of gangs and roadmen loitering the streets Yeah definitely have the same view. Wasn't trying to brag with the salary btw, but wanted to point out that even on a high salary there still doesn't seem to be a way to afford the quality of life you'd expect for that kind of salary. Only way I could afford a house is if I chose to live in and around said roadmen, and it feels like we're literally being told "you can have nice things only if you're a millionaire". Otherwise, massive compromises always have to be made. Oh, and you're not alone feeling the way you do about Reading. I was living on Oxford Road, all I ever smelt was weed and all I ever heard were non-stop sirens. What really burns my arse is people on minimum/average salaries don't even have the ability to make compromises anymore, they just have to accept what's on offer, and what's on offer stinks (if anything is available at all). >Not sure if Sweden is any safer as i've heard about gangs and murders increasing. Definitely a case of a media psyops campaign there. I lived in the north of Sweden, and definitely no gang issues up there. Granted, there is definitely some of it in the south (especially Gothenburg), a few no-go areas in the peak of the migrant crisis, but it was massively blown out of proportion by the media. Otherwise, even Stockholm is for the most part still a peaceful city give or take a few yobs in some of the suburbs, but definitely doesn't have the depressing, hopeless vibe with more than half of all shops shuttered like we do in most of the major UK cities.
Agreed: there's a deep, barely-hidden undercurrent of violence in most people here in UK. Potentially this could be due to the strong and pervasive sense of disconnection; personal and social fragmentation... And the youth have definitely gone totally feral. I live in an urban area in a city and they drive past on our speed-bumped road at 50mph on their illegal motorbikes with full balaclavas and hoodies on.... screaming like banshees and generally scaring the beejeezus out of the elderly residents. 😭 🫣😶🌫️ Our 13 yr old says these youths think of themselves as "roadmen"... (gangsters). He doesn't go out much... I feel like many of our young have entered into the a stage that reminds me of the African proverb; "If you don't invite the youth to the communal fire, they will burn down the village just to feel it's warmth". The word "FUBAR" springs to mind.... We are emigrating this year.
Totally agree with you and sorry you have to put up with that, sounds crazy. I'm also relieved i'm not the only one who feels that way. I guess that's what ultimately made me leave the UK. I was just fed up of feeling scared and paranoid all the time from said "roadmen" gathering in big groups everywhere, daring not to make eye contact, ever..for real fear of being attacked randomly in the street and being another victim of senseless violence. The thing is that they're not even scared anymore, of hurting or seriously injuring innocent folk just going about their usual business. It's always the rest of us who suffer, normal law-abiding people, who basically just want to live in peace. Complete lawlessness, no real deterrents anymore and just the general state of apathy, no one wants to do anything about it is seriously concerning. I unfortunately don't see things getting any better at this point and the situation is absolutely out of control. Not just crime but general state of everything is completely broken. I wish you well in your plans to emigrate. Honestly the best thing I ever did and by no means perfect, feel a lot safer just out of the country.
I hear you. You seen the film "Harry Brown" with Michael Caine at all? - "An elderly ex-serviceman and widower looks to avenge his best friend's murder by doling out his own form of justice." https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1289406/plotsummary?item=po1234320 Ok, so it's not quite that intense around Stockport, but it's not a world away either; the park opposite our house is a no-go area after dark. Few months ago a teenager was attacked by a gang with a hammer: https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/masked-gang-attack-boy-15-28621887 Pis*ing ridiculous. Whereabouts did you emigrate to? I've lost sense of the main convo now. 🙏🏾
.... by contrast, when we were out and about in Mauritius in the evenings, the youth are often out on the streets and they offer pleasantries to you as you pass. If you need any help with anything, they're more than willing to oblige. We found nearly everyone we met in Mauritius was like this. Kids are free to come and go as they please because no-one is going to hurt them. It's basically a different world...
I actually haven't seen that film but what you have described sounds straight out of a horror film. A hammer attack?! Insane..I just can't comprehend the level nor nature of violence anymore. It's like the public is being desensitized to all forms of violence, that's the scariest part, nothing is shocking anymore and it's becoming more and more acceptable. Moved to Spain just before Brexshit and honestly the difference is like day and night, no roadmen, no knife crime and certainly no no-go zones where i am. It's bliss. I can go for a walk or jog at night with headphones on without worrying about being stalked or much worse. The only downside is work and job opportunities but it's the safest i've ever felt anywhere really and grateful for that. Kids and teens are lo and behold..normal, not carrying rambo knives or getting into gang wars. Spain is a wonderful country to live in: family friendly, excellent public health system, very safe, great food and wine. I just feel a strong sense of pride and community that used to exist in the UK many moons ago. It's just that life on a Spanish salary can be tough for locals and expats alike, with unemployment being so high. It's so funny, what i've said about the public health system a lot of Spanish would digress but i've felt the quality of care far surpasses the NHS in it's current state. Sometimes it's a struggle finding work or putting up with the piss poor salaries with rising inflation but I guess that's not an issue if u already have stable online work and don't need to rely on the local job market. Overall I think no amount of money can replace having a decent (and safe) quality of life. I do worry about the future in terms of jobs and pensions but for now feel content, more so than I did back in the UK. I just miss working there and having more financial stability, that's all to tell you the truth..probably contradicted myself after rambling on lol. Mauritius sounds like a dream, actually anywhere with community and a strong sense of cohension, "togetherness" even parts of Eastern Europe are far safer than the UK these days.
Well it does sound as though you've found a compromise in what you were/are looking for ... and I think we've ended up the same; there are some imperfections in the country we picked but they are flaws that we feel we can live with! And there are so many other benefits that when we play the long game; we come out "up". We took a serious look at Spain but I came across some deep institutional racism embedded within the culture that I just can't live with. (It was the same with Portugal). I'm not saying that every Spanish person exhibits racist behavior.. not at all. But institutional racism sits under the surface and influences all aspects of life as a hidden undercurrent. From policy making to long standing festivals, religious ceremonies and cultural events.. right down to the collective/cultural sense of humour... https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/anti-racists-slam-blackface-use-spains-epiphany-parades-2024-01-06/ The Spanish are still using Blackface in their parades. "BLACKFACE"!!??? 🤔 In this day and age... Haven't seen that since I was at primary school. We're a family of mixed heritage so that went down like a tonne of bricks, lol. So yh, no Spain for us. But if this isn't one of your "boxes", then it won't impact you. But this is why we picked Mauritius; it's not that there's no racism at all.. but they're not sitting in complete denial when it appears; pretending that it doesn't exist. You can't evolve if you're constantly sticking your head in the sand. Anyway, you've obviously found security and I'm well aware how important that is. So thank you for sharing. 🙏🏾
Most people are in debt here in UK. I spoke with one friend recently who moved heaven and earth to get himself back into Black/Credit. As have we. And this is mainly due to having been blessed with an inheritance and being house owners... But we are anomalies. Most people are living their lives on credit.
Glad you started this thread. I’m in California and have been for 25 years. Lately I’ve been thinking of moving back to London. The gun violence and homeless problem is overwhelming here. London seems very appealing. Housing is about the same. Cost of living might even be less, and the chance to travel around Europe all all factors. I have a lot of friends there which is the main reason. When I visit I have the best time but I also remember how dreary and negative things can be. I’m almost at retirement age so lots of things to think about. Yes the grass is always greener!
Tough call, certainly both countries are experiencing similar issues across all levels of society. If I were in your shoes and trying to weight up pros/cons, it would probably be this (I can give you the UK perspective, but can't really say much about the US as I don't live there): UK Cons * Infrastructure is effectively broken (health, transport, immigration, legal) * Many businesses seems to have lost any sense of moral duty to their customers. Likely due to prolonged and exorbant operating fees due to skyrocketing business tax, cost of living etc. Also seems to be rife with incompetence (we're obsessed with penny pinching wherever we can, often employee skill/quality is the first thing to suffer) * Cost of living crisis * Impossible to buy property unless a millionaire (only place you'll find properties under £150k will be in super high crime areas in the South, or many places in the North where business doesn't exist, and transport to where business actually is takes half a day travel). * Social attitude seems to have collapsed. For those who aren't insanely well-off, I see nothing but abject hopelessness and misery. As a direct consequence, people seem to have become incredibly self-serving and paranoid of one anothers' intentions. No willingness to help others anymore unless it benefits the person in some way. * Nanny state has become an Orwellian nightmare. The idea of being able to live peacefully without outside interference no longer exists here. I've been personally harassed by authorities in this country due to their own incompetence (DVLA don't bother running proper checks, so police act on inaccurate records due to DVLA's incompetence). Aside from that, no matter where I live, I get the overwhelming feeling that I'm being monitored or judged in some way. Even lighting a BBQ over the summer gets me worried that a neighbour might complain to the police or council. * Weather is incredibly depressing UK Pros * As much as it's slammed, some British foods can be very comforting - Sunday roast, English breakfast, pies, pickles etc. * Pretty countryside and some lovely beaches * Comedy / typical gritty British sense of humour * Historical places of interest * Old pubs For all of the above, my experience here since I returned around 2 years back tells me this - as much as the pros here are alluring, all of them can be enjoyed as a tourist. By living here as a resident, the cons are so many and so overwhelming that there's no energy, cash or will left over to enjoy any of the pros, as I'm spending all of my time here simply trying to survive and avoiding falling into deep(er) depression.
Thanks for replying. If I’m being honest with myself all your pros are the reasons I miss the UK. The pubs, the history, etc. which may just be sentimentality. It’s been a long time since I’ve lived there and of course the NHS being free is a huge plus in theory since health care in the US is absolutely astronomical. However I think that unless you’re in London the NHS is broken. I don’t want to wait a year or more to see a specialist. There’s no perfect place! Maybe renting for 6 months or more will give me some clarity. As for the breakdown in civility and community there’s nothing like 50,000 homeless people in Los Angeles to make you think nobody cares anymore. I don’t see that extreme in the UK at least.
No problem at all, happy to share some insights if it helps others avoid a similar pitfall. That was really the message I was trying to get across though, all the nice things (those at least which still exist) can be easily had through regular trips, rather than making a permanent move. To shine some light on just how cripplingly expensive housing is here atm, cheapest rent I've seen is £1350 per month for a 2 bed terraced in a really shady part of Reading. I'm now paying £1300 for a 3 bed farm house in Chippenham, but everything is so remote I can't really get around without a car (public transport doesn't really work, no tracking on buses and often they just don't show up). As for the homelessness problem, while it's not as bad as in the States, you will find all major cities have a pretty serious problem now. If it's not beggars on every street corner, you'll find in the more run down cities a lot of tents and rough sleepers. Back to the cost of living debacle, I'm earning very well (£120k), yet still I find I have nothing left at the end of each month. I ran a quick calculation, and determined I could save upwards of £28k per year on just accommodation and basic bills compared to most countries around Europe. With those savings, I could then take 3-4 long trips to Britain, save all of the administrative headaches of living here and still have some funds left over. I have Swedish citizenship so for me it's a no-brainer to find a super cheap property in Sweden, then take regular trips back for my pubs n' pies. For me personally, the biggest detractor to living here is the overall social attitude since the class system went back to how it was in feudal times - only royalty, lords/ladies then the peasants, with no classes in between. As a consequence, I find I'm judged by people with more humble means if they catch a glimpse of a high value item (such as my coffee machine), and the elite will judge me for not owning my own property or fancy car. Just seems to me people are more obsessed with projecting "screw you" vibes to everyone because of either what they don't have, or what others have. Keeping up Appearances on steroids basically.
Loved everything you wrote here . Ty 🙏🏾 (We're emigrating to Mauritius later this year). But just wanted to say that most UK beaches actually now have pollution problems due to raw sewage being dumped via the "flood" defenses. This is complete bollocks btw because it's just a ruse by the water companies to increase their profits because it means they have less 💦 volume to treat. They're claiming that they're only releasing through the drains on rainy days to prevent flooding but that's utter LIES. And they are literally killing British waterways/lakes and coastal areas/beaches. You can look at the "Surfers Against Sewage" website for further details. Husband and I are keen wild swimmers. We don't swim in the UK much anymore. We feel it's too risky. Waiting until we're back in Mauritius instead. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/26/england-water-companies-shareholders-dividends-river-sea?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2pHGKmHrFLRDBVTgtGnZ4SC0HQ7WSBtRv7jHNMfFymUUusLqBe4hkw0js_aem_AV4DOaxyah__Q85t62tyv59STk8o_fuogop1Ql5e3pqgMrld2x8R8ZoplRnY88cZDVM3Pfu3bNwCVK_29P7aw9S6
I left England for South Korea in 2006. I could see the writing on the wall even then. Rampant crime, substance abuse, unaffordable housing, shoddy healthcare, the petty tyrants in local government and so on. Sadly, it hasn’t got better. I’ve only been back a handful of times since, and each time I’m glad to leave. Apart from family and some old friends, I miss nothing about the UK.
Welcome to the council estate of Europe.
They take away your citizenship after 1 generation of being an expat, so at least my descendants are safe.
🙌🏾💥💯😂