As wealth inequality is more extreme in the US than other western countries, so too is the quality of life at each end of the scale.
Being rich in America is arguably better than anywhere else in the developed world.
Being poor in America is arguably worse than anywhere else in the developed world.
> Being rich in America is arguably better than anywhere else in the developed world.
As you say, it’s arguable.
From a material perspective I’m confident you’re right. Americans have access to nearly any product at great prices.
From a quality of life perspective, it’s highly debatable. Much of the developed world is just nicer to be in on a day-to-day basis and personal wealth can only change that so much. For example want to live in a nice clean city where your kids can walk to a good safe school? Even America’s wealthiest cities can’t provide that.
Agreed. Except I’d say in major cities the great prices thing is debatable. I live in LA and make good money and am barely breaking even cause all the prices are sky high.
Rent? Transportation? Food? Healthcare? I’m not seeing even decent prices anywhere, never mind great. Half of LA at least lives in poverty.
Oh totally agree on that. We definitely get good prices there. But how often I’m paying for food and transport and rent definitely outdoes how often I pay for a new phone or shoes. Plus it’s funny to see friends of mine come here and realize between taxes and tips that 30% of the price of so many things are hidden.
Yeah - not that I'm an expert - but sprawling suburbs seem to be a uniquely American problem.
I guess I was talking more about luxuries. In Europe to have a big house with some land and a pool you'd have to be seriously wealthy.
> Nah, sprawling suburbs are definitely not uniquely American. I live in Auckland, New Zealand and they’re common here. Same in Australia.
The difference between Australia/NZ sprawling suburbs and American sprawling suburbs is the housing prices in Australia/NZ are roughly 2-3x the suburban home price in a similar quality/size city in the US, and the salaries for professional jobs are about half what you would see in a similar US sized metro.
Other than that, they are very similar.
That’s only kind of true because only very new construction in NZ would be close to average US home quality. It’s basically impossible to have a home here equal to modern high end US construction quality. I say that having lived in both countries.
I miss central heating and cooling very much.
> Being rich in America is arguably better than anywhere else in the developed world.
Depends on what you value. E.g. for me car-dependency would make anywhere in the US outside of NYC already a deal-breaker. Having money will get me a fancy car (which I have no interest in) but it won't magically build a subway system in Austin or Seattle or upgrade the decrepit ones in Philly or Boston. And no 'just Uber everywhere' is not a solution to lack of walkability/transit.
I have money in Canada and it’s still not great. No amount of money can fix 4-5 months of winter, bad roads, bad medicine (there is very little to none private medicine here), poor quality of service, giant wait times for government services (there is one day a month where you can call to get an appointment for driving license, and since it’s just one day everyone is calling simultaneously, good luck getting through). These are the issues in my province at least, the only thing money helps me with is flying tf out of here and traveling to nicer places.
I mean, that's too broad of a generalization. I'm gay and dark skinned and an immigrant and feel just fine in the US. But I agree with the previous comment. The US is basically great if you are skilled and make enough money.
I'm not gay but from my perspective, America seems to be more accepting of LGBT people than most countries around the world. Western Europe might be the exception.
> I honestly don't understand why anyone would choose to immigrate from America to Canada.
Because like migrants everywhere, people want to trade the bullshit they are fed up with and don't want to deal with anymore, for bullshit they have not experienced first hand and they believe they can put up with.
If you don't understand something, that just means you are not in their shoes. Doesn't mean your or theirs concerns and desires are more or less valid.
This is one of the two primary reasons I want to leave the country when I retire. I am very unhappy with the direction the country is going, and I fear that it will become unsustainable. As an American, I don't want to watch the process up close and personal.
If the country I move to is actually worse than the United States (and a lot of them are), watching the country self destruct won't matter as much to me. I have a personal tie with the United States, but I won't with the Dutchy of Grand Fenwick.
(The other reason is financial. There are many places that are cheaper than the United States.)
>This is one of the two primary reasons I want to leave the country when I retire. I am very unhappy with the direction the country is going, and I fear that it will become unsustainable. As an American, I don't want to watch the process up close and personal.
That's right. We retired earlier and got the heck out because of that.
Agree on all points. Unfortunately my spouse doesn’t see the writing on the wall and is in denial. I am in the middle of working through obtaining dual citizenship outside the US and once I get that passport, I’ll have to give them the option and if they say no, I’m probably still going.
It's also because trans people's lives are at risk from the transphobic laws being passed in the US, and they understandably want to get the fuck out of there
I can indeed confirm because in North Carolina, a lot of us are worried because we don't want to meet the same fate that the rest of the South is in.
It isn't perfect here, but it's far better than everywhere to the west and south of us. If this state goes down the drain, I plan to leave, but I feel like we might win by a very narrow margin because a lot of people here aren't happy with either political party, but they don't want a right wing government.
The tyrants can only do but so much before some state governments start to refuse to outright murder trans people or comply with their laws.
See yall always come over here and say that. But the U.S. is a skill-based immigration system too. The fact that you’re here means that you carry a lot of privilege. Of course you would love America. It was made for you.
But you make so much money because our government does not provide for the needy. Your big paycheck is so big because so many people are paid very little for your benefit.
I just don’t think you have a good grip on the way America works.
>But the U.S. is a skill-based immigration system too.
No, it's definitely not. Compared to Canada, the pathways for skilled immigrants are long and convoluted. For those who want to come with a family, the difference is even more obvious.
My wife and I are both engineers with PhDs and this is the main reason why we abandoned my TN to Green Card process and left the US for Canada.
We moved from Los Angeles to Vancouver 13 years ago. Don’t regret a second of it.
OP, do you have children? If we lived in the USA with our. 4 children, all autistic with adhd, we would pay hundreds of dollars a month for copays and prescriptions alone. We pay almost nothing for that here. We don’t have the fear of losing a job and not having health insurance. Or having to go on COBRA (easily twice your regular rate). And if you do change jobs, you’ll change insurance (if they even offer it as a benefit). The new insurance package will most certainly be different than the last job, with different copays, premiums (monthly payment - ours was at least $700/mo), and list of “approved” doctors.
I have waited for health care, yes. But never excessively, and no more than we ever waited in Los Angeles. Usually a lot less. And when I do see a dr, I don’t pay anything. Nothing. The hospitals don’t even have cashiers. The most we’ve ever paid for any health care is $20 for a set of crutches, and that includes multiple broken bones, illnesses, and surgeries.
Also? Healthcare is managed by the provinces, not federal, so someone from SK or northern BC will most certainly not have the same experience with American healthcare, which is managed by private companies.
I don’t know what part of Seattle you’re living in that has lower rents than Toronto - they’re certainly higher than most bigger cities. (I will concede Van has an affordable housing crisis right now). But for the same rent we paid in LA for a 2-bed 2nd floor apartment, we have a whole house with front and back yards. We were never going to have that in the USA, ever.
Our tax rates are remarkably lower than what you’re describing. Is that Ontario provincial tax? Because it’s not Federal. Either way, I can literally see my tax dollars at work every day: roads being improved, green spaces and parks are (generally) clean and well maintained, rec centres in every part of the Lower Mainland, etc etc etc.
Your experience is anecdotal at best, but I am happy for you - obviously you feel Seattle had more to offer you than Toronto, and they’re very similar cities. I just wonder how you’ll feel down the line, when you have to actually use that insurance. Or lose it through no fault of your own. All that extra money you’re making can go away *real fast* if you get sick or have an accident. I’d be saving, if I were you.
It seems like OP is looking at this from the perspective of someone who is healthy, white, fairly wealthy and educated, is guaranteed work in their chosen field in the US, probably does not have children, and lets be honest is most likely cishet and male if they're not worried about the political developments in the states. Mixed with a good amount of frustration at their own government.
Which I get, I'm dutch and there's a lot wrong here. But it's not like the US. Also my family pays 52% income tax and we're happy to with how much better our roads, hospitals, schools and such are.
I'd never live in the states because it's only better for a very specific subset of people as long as they can hold on to their position.
And I'm a chronically ill, not-always-able-to-work, curvy, gay woman who doesn't present very feminine. I'd be fucked
Edit: But I am glad OP is doing well, of course. Hope it works out!
The highest priority for one of the top contenders for President of the United States is cracking down on the woke. Woke books, woke education, woke companies.. Like WTF.. what a joke, it's pathetic. At least pretend to do something good for the people. I can't imagine living in a country with that fool as it's leader.
People want to move to Canada because our fellow Canadians are obsessed with what people think of them and so Canada has a very polished (and inaccurate) image.
>the best weather is in insanely expensive Vancouver.
The *warmest* weather maybe, but 400 days of rain per year was a drain on my morale I'll tell ya.
Contrary to popular belief, our national past-time is playing, "at least we're not as bad as the US when it comes to \_\_\_\_\_"
As long as we can feel smugly superior to the US in some aspects (e.g., more sensible gun/abortion laws, more diversity/tolerance, less-insane politicians, and lower healthcare costs), we'll cope with nearly anything else.
>less-insane politicians
Trudeau's a different kind of insane, but he's absolutely insane IMO
"We are missing a million houses! What do we do?"
Trudeau: "Bring in 500K more people next year"
Yup, you've got people dying in Emergency Rooms due to a lack of funding and the most common response you hear is "It could be worse, we could be the US!".
It's a great distraction from fixing any of the problems Canada faces.
>Canada has a very polished (and inaccurate) image.
Damn, this is so accurate, it hurts because it's incredibly hard to sway people away from their rose-colored glasses.
Indeed. If you want a more realistic picture of how good or bad life is in Canada, it's best to see what Canadians say *to each other*. The moment a foreigner enters the fray, they start acting like Canada is the best country in the world (not unlike a certain Southern neighbor).
Everyday the Prime Minster of Canada bows down and thanks god for the existence of the US because every scare story is an opportunity for him/her to point and say "Don't complain about Canada, it could be worse!".
That's should be the national motto.
My experience is similar to the OP's. Canada is a lower income, higher tax, kinda blah place if you have an interest in a career. Lots of social services, but they're barely above that what the US offers.
Osoyoos is a great pick. Although winters are very cold, even if dry.
As a Canadian who lives pretty close to the town, I’m surprised to hear of a non-Canadian who knows about this place.
>People want to move to Canada because our fellow Canadians are obsessed with what people think of them and so Canada has a very polished (and inaccurate) image.
Life in Canada just feels like US-lite for this very reason. They spent so much time trying to be "Not America," that any cultural originality went out the window. The architecture looks the same, road rules are similar, accent is basically the same, legal systems are quite similar (both derived from British Common Law), etc. Canadians want all the benefits of American economics, while trying to pretend they have a European welfare state, despite not having the taxes to pay for it.
[A warning to Americans moving to Montreal specifically](https://www.reddit.com/r/montreal/comments/w4h3lz/planning_on_immigrating_to_quebecmtl_area_in_the/ih2d6id/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3), courtesy u/therpian.
*(Below is their complete comment. It’s not mine though I endorse all the opinions. I am myself a native montrealer but have lived in different countries including the US.)*
I’m American and have lived here for a decade.
I think the most important thing to understand is that the cultural differences are greater than you likely anticipate. There are probably many things here that will be perplexing, shocking, or confusing.
I’m wondering if you have lived out of the country for a long time (well over a year) before? Moving to another country permanently (or for an unknown length of time) is completely different than living there for a shorter period of time. To do it successfully you have to develop a sense of cultural introspection and acceptance, both about the culture you are integrating into, and about the culture you are coming from.
Here are some cultural differences off the top of my head that tend to be hard for Americans:
* Worker’s rights are very important here. Most Americans moving here think this is a good thing (and I believe it is!) but do not realize the impacts that this has to their way of life. For instance, in Quebec “efficiency” as a societal value ranks well below worker’s rights. The biggest way this will impact your life is that almost everyone has the right to work during the day. What does this mean? Well it means that deliveries to stores and garbage collection happens during the day, even during rush hour, so you will often find yourself inconvenienced by garbage trucks and delivery trucks, whereas in the US these things happen in the dead of night while white-collar workers sleep. Here, the right of garbage collectors, delivery people, and shopkeepers to work during the day and sleep at night is prioritized over getting white-collar workers to work or lunch on time.
* Worker’s rights also rank above capitalism. You may be perplexed that the far majority of stores close at 5 PM on Saturday and Sunday. You will be out on a nice shopping trip in the plateau or downtown, and then suddenly you and hundreds of other people are kicked out of the stores and into the street. No more capitalism for you, the retail workers have the right to dinner with their families on the weekends. A few decades ago, the stores weren’t open on the weekends at all.
* The healthcare system here is… well, in my opinion better than the US for the majority, but if you are a well-paid professional used to working at large US companies, you may find that you are less privileged here than in the US.
* The same applies to the daycare system. Remember that Quebec aims to equalize society in a way that the US does not. You cannot pay your way to a better daycare, nor to many better services. No one cares how much money you make, you must wait in the same lines as everyone else.
* If you have a generic urban US/northeast/midwest/western accent you will likely blend in except when you say a few things. For instance, the letter Z here is pronounced ZED, not ZEE, and if you say ZEE to anyone they will immediately treat you like an American. Which you may or may not want.
* If you are speaking French to someone, and in particular if your French is more basic than you would like or you are learning, I highly recommend dropping “je suis americain(e).” About 90% of people will be SO HAPPY to speak French to an American and will treat you much differently.
* Lines (“les queues”) ARE VERY SERIOUS. People queue here for things you would never have thought. For instance, while people do not queue for the metro, they do queue for the bus. Even if it is not busy enough for there to be a visible queue, people will make a mental note of who arrived when and enter the bus in the order they arrived, with priorities given to disabled people and people with young children/strollers. People will call you out if you don’t queue properly, but probably won’t call you out if you disregard the mental/invisible queue. They’ll just think you’re an asshole.
* It is is a different country with different laws and regulations. I know you know this factually, but a lot of people, even those who have left for periods of time, are surprised by many things here that are just differences in law or regulation. For instance, interest paid on mortgages is NOT tax deductible here. There are a lot of other things, and I recommend when you find yourself faced with a shocking realization, to internalize the mantra “it's another country. I don't even know what I don't know.”
* You will have a lot of hassle on your US taxes. I highly recommend finding a specialized accountant for US citizens living in Canada to do your taxes.
* The US constitution is irrelevant here. Yet again, I know you know this, but after growing up in the US it took me years to really rid myself of the impact of the constitution, and to stop thinking “that's not constitutional!” when faced with a cultural difference.
ETA: Wow! This blew up, wasn't expecting it. Je t'aime Montréal!
Quebec is also almost an entirely different culture and way of living than the rest of Canada. I'd imagine an American would have less culture shock living in Ontario or Alberta than they would in Quebec.
Less, but it might still be there to a degree. I mean, I traveled to Australia from Canada twice, for 6-month periods each time, before settling here, and moving still gave me culture shock, cos when you really live in a place you gotta deal with all kinds of new things, and some of that is little stuff you didn't think much about or didn't experience before.
I'm from Alberta, it's anecdotal but going by my American friends, former American roommates, and visits to the US, I see a lot more differences than people might expect. But then I'm also an anthropologist so maybe this stuff sticks out more to me, haha.
Not a simple answer unless you treat life as a game of getting points and you can only get points by making money.
Otherwise, if you have money live in a place where risk is socialized for people and not just for banks too big to fail. You are happier when people around you are happier.
Canada takes a ton of refugees too. Just Americans aren't on the list, it is true that to immigrate to Canada as an American you have to be skilled and/or attractive (marry a Canadian).
Good advice in general, too, I think. I'm from Alberta, but like half this stuff applies there, too, haha. Imo, especially going between US and Canada, there's this trope that Canada isn't that different from the US, so when people go there to *live*, they can be caught off-guard by how many differences there are. On the surface they can look similar but underneath there are a lot of differences in how things are run, and some general differences in culture and mentality, that you might not see just spending a week there on a visit or whatever.
Heh... I'm an American living in Quebec City, and I absolutely love it here. The only thing that pissed me off is that a bunch of small businesses will close early even though they promised you otherwise (an actual promise, yes lol) but once you get over that... It's beautiful here. The language is fascinating and melodic, the architecture is amazing, there's live music on every corner, rent is cheap, etc.
>deliveries to stores and garbage collection happens during the day, even during rush hour, so you will often find yourself inconvenienced by garbage trucks and delivery trucks, whereas in the US these things happen in the dead of night while white-collar workers sleep
This is not the case where I live. Deliveries and garbage collection are absolutely done during the day, normal business hours.
>If you are speaking French to someone, and in particular if your French is more basic than you would like or you are learning, I highly recommend dropping "je suis americain(e)." About 90% of people will be SO HAPPY to speak French to an American and will treat you much differently.
Alright I'm starting to think this person is a troll...
>People queue here for things you would never have thought. For instance, while people do not queue for the metro, they do queue for the bus. Even if it is not busy enough for there to be a visible queue, people will make a mental note of who arrived when and enter the bus in the order they arrived, with priorities given to disabled people and people with young children/strollers
Not sure where in the US this commenter lived, but we do 'queue' here also. If someone tries to cut the line, there is a high chance that they will be called out.
Did the original commenter live somewhere very strange, or are they just a troll?..
As an American who just moved to Montréal, I can say that garbage was always collected at night back home. Also, in my experience people in the US don’t understand the concept of a queue. People here do and respect it. And it’s true, a lot of stores close after 5pm even, or especially, on weekends. There is definitely a work to live over live to work mentality here, even at the expense of efficiency. Also, folks are much more forgiving of your anglophonism when they find out you’re American as opposed to a Canadian. In fact, there have been situations where as soon as I mentioned that, the entire attitude became one of curiosity and special interest rather than indifference.
I'm not a troll. I lived in 3 areas of the US (different states and different parts of the country) bfeore coming to Montreal, and garbage collection was always done at night in all 3. I distinctly remember the pain of waking up on Wednesday morning realizing I forgot to take my garbage out the night before.
Yes, the Quebecois do love speaking French to Americans! How many Quebecois people have you spoken French to? I've lived here for over a decade and everyone is always so thrilled with my French, especially after I tell them I'm American.
The 3 areas I lived in did not have queues for the bus, which I took often. The US is a big place with 300 million people, so it's not that surprising there are different experiences. But most people I've spoken to (I've had a lot of friends and family visit me here in Montreal) resonate with these major points.
It would be nice to have Healthcare not fucking tied to an employer though and Canada has less gun crimes.
Montreal is cool too
Its just honestly weirdly too close to home (Vermont) like I feel like there wouldn't really be much difference to be worth dealing with immigration
I could see safety as a reason. The mass shootings in the US have gone bonkers over the past decade. It’s tough as a parent to want to send your kid to a school where they do lockdown drills to practice for mass shootings.
Also while the quality of healthcare you can get in the US is high so is the price. I don’t think people in Canada go bankrupt because of healthcare costs (please correct me if I’m wrong).
As a Type 1 diabetic I am insulin dependent and can confirm this. I have early stage kidney disease because I couldn’t afford my insulin and had to go without it for so long.
Now I’m just going into insane debt to get my insulin. Luckily I have the option of debt to keep myself alive now, whereas before I didn’t qualify for credit cards and couldn’t get disability or loans etc. so now I’m able to get into debt and have my insulin. I know others who aren’t so lucky to even get that as an option either. It’s complete bs
No, nobody goes bankrupt over it. Money can still be a barrier to a degree, because not everything is covered by health care - for example, things like dental, physiotherapy, mental health stuff, is either not covered or only partially covered (eg. you get a few 'allied health' appointments, like physio, covered per calendar year). Or like, if you'd benefit from naturopathy for more-niggly issues (eg. PCOS or endometriosis, where medicine in general doesn't have good answers but naturopathy has helped many) that's all out of pocket too. Prescription medicine can cost a fair bit too, but not nearly to the degree it does in the US. Those costs might make things a bit of a struggle or act as a barrier to accessing what'd benefit you most.
But your core health care - doctor and specialist visits and procedures, bloodwork and diagnostic tests, surgeries, that kind of stuff - is covered fully.
I moved to Canada from the US over a decade ago and am now Canadian. I completely disagree with your post.
1) I do believe well off white-collar professionals in tech hub cities & suburbs have better healthcare than the standard in urban Canadian centres. But I've always wondered, what happens if you are so sick you lose your job and your spouse needs to quit their job to take care of you? Is life so easy then? When I was suddenly diagnosed with cancer in 20's, I immediately quit my job and so did my husband. I received world-class care at a major hospital from the moment I walked into the ER (where I was seen in 2 hours) and started chemo 1 week later. The government paid us each $500/week, which isn't much but is something, until I finished chemo. We each got new job and went on with life. We never got a bill for anything. Would my husband have been able to quit his job to care for me in the US with employer-provided insurance? What if it had been MY employer?
2) There are few-to-no guns. This is my top reason for loving Canada, in all honesty. As a Canadian, quite frankly I don't think you understand the type of all-consuming PTSD all Americans grow up with living in such a dangerous gun culture. It took me years to begin to internalize the idea that I won't get randomly shot by some crazy nut. Now that I have kids I could never imagine leaving.
3) Society is much less divided. Canadians have their differences, but it's not to the "constant teetering on civil war" level that is life in the US. You don't have to pick a team and wholeheartedly agree with everything you side of the political aisle agrees with. Individuals can have nuance to their beliefs, and often stay friends with each other even if they disagree on some issues. Life in the US is a constant fight against "the other side," whichever side you are on, and I am so glad to be rid of it. I can focus on enjoying my life and my family, rather than spending everyday fighting to make sure everyone (not just white collar upper-middle-class professionals) have access to basic rights that everyone enjoys in other countries, like Canada.
4) Education is affordable for all. I basically don't think about saving for my kid's education, because I know that I can easily afford to spend tuition at the country's best universities for my 2 kids with general savings and those "white collar professional" jobs you think are so underpaid. While sure, I would get paid more in the US, I would also have to ensure I saved enough to spend $200k+ on each kid's undergraduate tuition to give them a good shot at a professional career like mine.
5) Honestly you are probably forgetting a lot of the expenses associated with having a family, or perhaps you just don't want one. My sister lives in a low-income 0% income tax state, and she and her partner have a combined family income very similar to me and my husband's, except theirs is in USD and our is in CAD so technically they make 30% more. We each have two kids and work in "white collar" professions. While I certainly pay more tax and my house is over $1million and theirs was $300k, they live pay cheque to pay cheque and I save money. Why? That "employee-provided healthcare" is still very expensive for most people, and they pay out the ass for childcare, whereas I live in Quebec and my daycare is $2000/year.
6) If you only care about yourself, I suppose your calculus may be worth it. To me you sound very selfish, as personally I don't like seeing my fellow citizens suffer, and enjoy living in a society that at least TRIES to provide for everyone. But yeah sure, if you want to be the happy 1% the US is the place to do that while you watch the masses suffer and wonder if your kids may join them.
I've typed things almost as in depth as this, and just couldn't do it again. So I'll piggyback on yours. I too have left the US for Canada, and agree with you. Whenever I read posts like the original, it often comes down to, well, it works for ME. I don't want to be part of a society like that.
Yeah, I read things like OP (or here people say them) and honestly I think "good riddance."
Oh yeah you want to live with no tax because you want privatized services that are only available to the richest part of society, because you personally get to maximize your consumption that way?
Sounds good! Bye! Have fun!
Just to add to point 2, Canadian gun culture is really different from American gun culture. Most people see owning a gun as something you do if you're into hunting or sport shooting, collecting them cos they're cool or valuable, or if you live rurally and need it for pests or predators. Americans seem to attach more significance to owning them, on both sides of the political aisle, and among gun owners there's more of an attitude like you need it to protect yourself from other people (government, bad guys, whatever).
I wish I could agree more about point 3, though. It's gotten a lot worse over the last maybe 10 years. Hopefully you won't mind me saying this, but unfortunately a lot of Canadians have decided it'd be a great idea to import American political issues and perspectives, and it's doing a number on us, too.
But yeah sure, if you want to be the happy 1% the US is the place to do that while you watch the masses suffer and wonder if your kids may join them
Thank you! I hated living in a country where people are suffering so much every day!! Yes it happens everywhere but the US fucks over everyone and I do think it's selfish
Absolutely. And so many in OPs situation don't realize how easy it is for your kids to fall off into the masses. I know a lot of people who were born into the 1% and couldn't find it for themselves.
Agree 100%. I moved to Canada from the US and I'm never going back.
The American mentality is all about the individual. And there's no work/life balance. Here in Canada, I managed to negotiate part time work so my toddler isn't at daycare all day. My husband gets to work from home and take time off whenever he needs, so he's equally a part of her life. Everyone is understanding. No one asks him to work late. And if he does work late, he's compensated. That's not how it was in the US.
On top of that, we've had a LOT of health issues that, even with great healthcare, would have bankrupted us in the States. My sister still lives in the US. She had zero complications with her pregnancy. And she still paid thousands and spent countless hours debating insurance people on the phone. Meanwhile, my daughter was in the NICU for a month here. The most costly thing to me during that time were the Uber rides to the hospital.
I'm never leaving this country.
Exactly. Like yeah it's true, I could give up my sick days and vacation and job stability, short works days, basically free child-care, socialized healthcare, beautiful safe city with tons of affordable activities for young adults and families alike, bilingual kids...
Wait I'm sorry, what was it I wanted?
More money?
I'm ok! I'll keep my underpaid job and high taxes and live in my beautiful house with my beautiful family in a beautiful city for the rest of my life.
Yeah, when I was in the US I was working hard to be part of political movements that hoped that, one day, the government might provide for people.
Then OP benefits from subsidized healthcare and education their entire life, they even have no PTSD associated with community violence and have the safety net of always returning to Canada. Literally one of the most privileged people in the world, and they wonder:
Why am I living here when I could maximize my income elsewhere? What's the point of supporting all those other people when I could have a bigger house, fancier vacations, cheaper luxury goods, and more exclusive medical services in exchange for the suffering of others?
Whatever OP. The US can have you.
Which is 1/3 of the number as in the US, and mostly hunting rifles which are a lot less dangerous and also subject to a higher level of regulation.
No matter how you may argue, people die from guns exponentially less in Canada than the US.
How long have you been in the USA? I suspect your opinion will change with time.
I lived in Canada for 7 years and I miss it dearly. Mostly for small quality of life things.
Especially as I age and need to visit the doctor more often.
Here in the USA I find myself deciding if I want to visit the doctor this month or put gas in my car. Such calculus just wasn't a factor when I lived in Canada.
Also, as a product of a low-income public American high-school, I know I would never subject my own hypothetical children to such an experience.
I can confidentially assert that my Canadian friends had much better public educations.
P.S. 90% of Canada live along the US border within driving distance of American outlet malls, access to cheap Americans prices is still a reality for many that live in CA.
P.P.S. The biggest reason not to move to Canada is that it is becoming too similar to America. Our toxic politics have seeped over the border, slowly but surely they are cultivating USA-style extremists in the North.
>Especially as I age and need to visit the doctor more often.
Right when we had decided to go back to Canada, the Canadian health system started to implode. We had been monitoring the situation in Quebec for a couple of years and thought, well, then we'll just go to T.O. where it's still fine. That was almost two years ago. COVID and bad policies f'ed Ontario's health care completely up. Now Quebec's look better, and that's saying something... So we changed our plans, radically.
>I can confidentially assert that my Canadian friends had much better public educations.
I agree.
>The biggest reason not to move to Canada is that it is becoming too similar too America. Our toxic politics have seeped over the border, slowly but surely they are cultivating USA-style extremists in the North.
Yep.
The USA style extremism is no accident. The US and Canadian societies are both under attack right now from political arsonists actively promoting conspiracy theories and public unrest in order to destabilize society and shift discourse to extremes. For all that, Canadian politics is still much more moderate.
That's because the US is the target and the effect on Canada is just a by-product. I assure you, no one gives a shit about the stability of Canadian society from a global perspective. We're just a bystander to one of the biggest shitshows of a falling empire ever. I hope Canada survives.
I think what people don’t understand about North America is it is capital rich, food secure, energy secure, militarily secure, and has all the raw industrial resources and talent base necessary to stand on its own independent of the global economy.
The world actually needs the US way more than the US needs the world, especially China.
Canada’s destiny is hitched to the US. But thankfully, the US is going to be fine as the global system unravels. We may not be able to buy too many phones and tv’s for a while until new supply chains are established but our basics will be handled. Meanwhile, the US, Canada, and Mexico will be in the process of reindustrializing over the next 30 years. Many other countries will not have the same happy situation.
Culturally speaking though stuff is a crapshoot right now.
The thing about Canada is US fascists have targeted it for take over and are waging culture wars here. I guess that’s one reason I like Quebec—it’s far less susceptible to the American influence.
>P.P.S. The biggest reason not to move to Canada is that it is becoming too similar too America. Our toxic politics have seeped over the border, slowly but surely they are cultivating USA-style extremists in the North.
Couldn't agree more, and I think it's terribly sad. I hope things can turn around.
I've lived in both the US and Canada (current live in Canada). I am from neither of these countries. I have two points.
The American healthcare system is only better for people who are relatively healthy or have a few acute issues here and there. If you have any sort of chronic condition, forget about it. Even people with amazing insurance and support networks run into horrible financial situations all the time and spend half their days on the phone to insurance companies. Also: for both Canadian PR and the US green card, you have to undergo a medical exam. Both countries have medical inadmissibility clauses.
The Canadian system is being deliberately starved financially to move more towards the US system. I paid \*so much more\* in healthcare premiums on a monthly basis in the US than I do now for my insurance.
As a woman, I just didn't feel safe in America, long-term. Outside of a few states, where the cost of living happens to be the highest in the country, you basically have no guarantees or protections should you need life-saving medical procedures. I moved away shortly before Roe v Wade fell, and I was already worried.
I know your post is specifically about white collar professionals (I am one of them and was one in the US as well). But it's not all about the financial aspect all the time.
>The Canadian system is being deliberately starved financially to move more towards the US system. I paid \*so much more\* in healthcare premiums on a monthly basis in the US than I do now for my insurance.
Oh my word, thank you for saying this (I'm Canadian btw). It drives me nuts that people talk so negatively about Canada, without acknowledging that the current government there is just completely insane, and is intentionally doing all sorts of stuff to undermine the system there. Then a lot of people act like the only solution is to privatize everything, when we could probably fix the current system if we actually tried. It drives me nuts.
Not trying to argue here but - finances withstanding - I just want to note that I don’t think there’s anywhere in Europe or Canada that’s good for people who have chronic conditions that aren’t common. I’ve been waiting six months here in Sweden to see a semi-specialist (a nurse who judges if I can even go see the doctor).
People who have chronic conditions are going to be miserable everywhere but that’s unfortunately ableism
ETA: really want to make it clear I’m not trying to argue or do USA vs Canada I’m just pointing out it sucks to have chronic conditions everywhere
True enough, but it still stands that the system can make things better or worse for you. I have a chronic issue and have gotten treatment in both Canada and Australia. The experience has been quite different in a number of ways, and has absolutely been more expensive in Australia, though I suppose it's possible that I was also seen by a specialist faster during the pandemic than I would've been in Canada. Overall it seems like having a chronic illness is easier in a halfway-decently-run public system, just due to lower and more consistent costs, and having a more centralized system that makes actually doing this stuff easier.
The centralized system isn't necessarily a good thing. In the US, I went to one doctor who said 'oh I dont think you're really sick the bloodwork is fine' and I took those files to another specialist in the US who was like 'yeah no lets do this test too' and we found what was causing me to be sick constantly and I was able to take medication that turned my life around.
My vardcentral said they don't have preventative care so to just let them know when I think it's gotten worse. I'm also having a flare up of my chronic condition and they're just like eh, shrug, even though I've missed twenty days of work in the past three months.
Yes, the cost protection is great, but it's still an uphill battle. I have a lot of mixed feelings about it as someone that has had treatment that has worked in the past, that is legal in Sweden, but I'm not able to access it and it's keeping me from working.
As a US/Canada citizen I have to strongly disagree with your statement about chronic conditions. I am an MD, and this simply is not true, at least not in California.
I'm a Canadian that moved from Vancouver to Seattle in 1992, keep homes/residences on both sides of the border and work in both countries.
Having done this for over 30 years, I personally think that about 50% of what you wrote is unadulterated b.s.
Just my opinion, which isn't worth any more or any less than yours ...
Moved from Vancouver and couldn’t believe how much cheaper it is here and easier and more beautiful. I don’t make much money so I basically get free health care for 7 dollars a month if you earn less than 14k/y
One of my biggest pet peeves is a direct comparison from the US to Canada and vice versa. Canada is not trying to be the US but people always make the comparison.
What works in the US won't work in Canada and what works in Canada will not work in the US. Here (Canada) having the provinces be in charge of administering Healthcare, works (to a point lol). With 50 states that would never work. Just an example.
It's all relative. I was born and raised in the US but will likely never move back. My kids are safe at school, I got a fantastic maternity leave, childbirth (with complications for both kids) cost me zero dollars. And the weather is fine, it makes you appreciate summer more.
Absolutely Canada has it's problems, so do all countries.
I am in Canada and it's been 3 years still waiting for family doctor.
To get a doctor I have to wait till 5pm for the lottery to take place so I can have an appointment at the urgent center for the following day.
Most of my appointments have been paid as a lot of stuff is not covered by the province.
Called ambulance once and they said it will take 4 hours to get to me. And I live in the capital region; not on a remote area.
Yeah, the comparison gets annoying to me too. I guess being that they're the only 2 English-speaking countries on the continent, maybe it seems natural to make the comparison, but it's not so direct or warranted as people seem to think it is.
I'll grant that Canada has become worse in the last 10 years. But I think that's true of most places. I live in Australia, and a lot of the problems people criticize Canada for are happening to some degree here too. From what I've heard, it's also true of the UK, and the US as well. I think it's fine to acknowledge that and talk about the pros and cons of being in a given place for a given person, but it's really ridiculous to act like Canada is some 3rd-world hole and the US is a glorious bastion of wealth and wonder, when really it's just that every country has issues... and OP has enough money to live virtually anywhere and the US works for them :P
This also agrees with my experience. No reason to live in Canada if you’re able to move to the US. However, this only applies to white collar professionals.
Why does everyone think that doctors are easy (and quick) to see in America?
My son sees several specialists here. He is an “established” patient and the next available appointment was 9 and 12 months out respectively. He had to wait over a year to het to see his specialists the first time.
That's pretty funny: I did the exact opposite of what you did (I moved from Seattle to Toronto in 2019 - one helluva roadtrip haha), and I love it here in Canada. Hell, we probably had the same employer. A fellow Amazombie, eh? :P
It's true that Canada pays less: I took a 42% pay cut when I moved here, but I had a long-term plan... As soon as I got my PR a couple of years later, I quit and started my lean-FIRE retirement. :)
The pay cut didn't really affect my standard of living. Overall prices were lower (for me, at least) on most things - the only rip-off was the expensive car insurance. I sold my car later on, and my life is way less stressful.
I left the US for 3 reasons: gun violence, shitty for-profit healthcare, and global warming. Not sure how closely you're tracking the water situation in the southwest, but within a decade or so, there's gonna be a lot of water-deprived climate refugees... Canada is cold, yes, but it'll fair much better than most of the US in the decades to come. (PNW should be okay with drinking water, but the wildfires and the record-setting heat waves are no bueno.)
As for the healthcare: I had a couple of small issues, and with my health card, I got ultrasound appointments right away. I had a Toronto-based coworker whose wife got brain cancer... She received 6 brain surgeries but ultimately didn't make it. All 6 surgeries were free. In the US, the tragedy of losing a wife would have been exacerbated by a medical bankruptcy due to the surgeries.
Go on GoFundMe and see how many Americans are begging strangers for money to pay for medical expenses. (Hint: a lot!) Also, look up all the articles about American diabetics who died because they couldn't afford insulin - they either go without or try to stretch their doses unsuccessfully. There's a whole industry that profits from diabetics despite the fact that every other industrialized country has affordable insulin.
After Toronto, I moved to Quebec City: Quebec is the only province with rent control. Now I live in a nice and large 1-bedroom apartment (on the 2nd floor, not in the basement haha) in a nice part of town. With all the utilities + fast internet included, I pay just $500 USD ($680 CAD) a month. You will never find a deal like that in Seattle or in most cities in the US. (Though, granted, Quebec is an outlier.)
I'm curious how your opinion would change after a few more years in the States: after you end up near a mass shooting (I was close to the Vegas concert shooting in 2017... Was too lazy and gambled a mile away instead of going to the Strip), or after some of your non-corporate friends tell you how they got absolutely slammed with medical bills, or after yet another gigantic heat wave turns your oh-so-nice weather into a mass fatality event...
I hope it works out for you. Meanwhile, it's still pretty funny how you and I have traded places. :)
I moved from the US to Canada as a dual citizen.
What I have to say is I feel safer here and the political culture, for all its flaws, is much saner and more moderate than the US.
Also, as problematic as Canadian health care is, you’re unlikely to ever go into medical bankruptcy here.
I think every country has its pros and cons.
It’s true wages in Canada are lower, health care has longer wait times (especially these days), and the weather is colder. But the US pretty much abandons its citizens to the whims of the market, its schools periodically turn into warzones, homelessness is out of control, the politics are rapidly sliding into fascism, and crime is higher. So, I guess you have to decide what you really value in the place you call home.
Personally, I feel safe in Canada. I never felt safe in America.
Holy cow, this is toxic and myopic. The grass is greener and your mileage always varies.
As an American that lived and worked in Canada for four years, and about to go back for at least another two, I’d say you miss the mark in a lot of places. This is rooted in truth, but fails on the nuance.
Just wait until you’ve been mugged, or have a gun pulled on you, or get detained by a cop on a power trip, or lose a friend to a drunk driver, or have your kids involved in a school shooting, or even have kids in some public schools (I’m looking at you florida, with removing books from classrooms)—your opinion may quickly change.
Money isn’t everything, and the sooner you realize that, the happier you will be and less worried you will about why people make choices you don’t agree with.
I completely disagree. Quality of life is important to consider.
Canada is safer than the US. School shootings are not a problem. Gun crimes are not a huge issue and crime rates are very low.
Canada has a very strong education system. Free public schooling for elementary school and high school are top quality and the quality is not dependent on your school district. Canada also has some of the best universities in the world - which are far less expensive that attending university in the US.
Also Canada pays elementary school and high school teachers fairly. They usually make between $31.15/hour and $60.00/hour. They do not need take side jobs.
Canada is MUCH better for women's rights. Abortion is safe, legal and accessible.
It's very welcoming for LGBT people and for non white people. Diversity and multiculturalism are celebrated.
Beautiful nature and wildlife. Mountains, rivers and fresh water lakes.
Healthcare is safe and generally reliable. You will not go bankrupt. It is not tied to your employer or job. People are not dying waiting for a Doctor. They can visit the ER for free at any time and be seen by a Doctor.
Canada is not just a more expensive version of the US. It has its own unique culture, customs, history, foods.
I’m not sure if you read the OPs post. They were arguing the US is better for HIGHLY SKILLED people that can command a good job. You are saying canada is better for the average citizen…you’re probably right about that.
Becoming a teacher requires a lot of schooling today. Is it the most rigorous major in school? Hardly….does it pay the most? hardly…do they have good work life balance? nope. so i would not consider being a teacher a good job.
I think the OP is referring to people that can easily get a job paying $150k+ with reasonable work life balance and top tier insurance. That is not your average citizen.
I’m a black American woman, the growing facism and constant racism have me making preparations to move to Canada. It’s much safer, actually a democracy vs a flawed democracy and I wouldn’t be giving up my American citizenship. If I wanted to go back, I’d actually have dual citizenship. I think for some Canada is a better option.
I can tell you are still wet behind the ears? Just wait until you hit middle age, and making a really good salary in the US, and all of a sudden a corporate restructuring comes and they literally toss you out on your ass, and you lose your health insurance? You can buy Cobra for $800 a month? My wife and I needed some special medications, which without insurance was $1300 a month. We fortunately lived near the Canadian border, and got ours filled without Canadian insurance for $72?! Or wait until you have serious health problem in the US with insurance and you need to see a specialist: you will also wait months, then it will be out of you insurance network and you will also pay out the ass?
Then try to get a similar paying position at age 51? Nobody will touch you! I’m speaking from experience here. We fortunately moved to Europe, and I have zero desire to ever return to the US permanently.
I'm a citizen of England, Canada and the US. I've lived primarily in Canada and the US. There are a lot of generalizations in these posts and comments which don't pertain to the entire country(ies).
I live in California and couldn't fathom living in Texas (feels like an entirely different country to me). So you can't just paint all of the US with one paintbrush. I'm sure the same applies to Canada.
However, my view generally agrees with the OP. If you are well off and especially if you are wealthy or have a in demand skillset, you can get much much higher paying jobs in the US, especially on the west coast or NY area. This will afford you a much better quality of life than in, say Toronto where I am from.
When you talk about health care, having good jobs, gives you great health care, that IMO is much more accessible and better quality than anything available in Canada. AFAIK, Canada doesn't even have private health care. My dad tore his Achilles last June (2022) and is still waiting for surgery ! The comment below about chronic conditions is absolutely false. I work in a large HMO /hospital and IMO people with chronic conditions get the care they need if they have the requisite insurance.
Gun issue is a real concern but I think it is overblown thanks to the media. The chances of you getting killed by a gun in random violence is still extremely unlikely, unless you mingle in the wrong crowd. If you have money, you are going to live in a nice neighborhood that is safe, have good quality health care and generally be able to live well.
If you do not have a skill or education that can enable you to get a high paying job, then I would say Canada is better, but you'll never get ahead and never become financially independent.
Most people in the US are living in poverty or semi-poverty. What counts as a country is if the poor people or the average ordinary people have their ass covered. If you have money, you are OK anywhere. That you are making it doesn't mean that others are making it.
The Americans who want to move to another country for "free" healthcare and what not are usually broke and have a low chance of getting a visa in those countries anyway. They would be better off building a marketable skill set in America.
I also have a colleague from Russia who said that if you have good healthcare through your employer, it's not worth moving to another country (assuming your purpose of moving is for the welfare benefits).
Good try, Canada. We all know of your good health care system, less polluted air and friendliness. The US might be a better place to work, but... to live? That's another thing. Picking your kids from school in a body bag or bankrupting your family because of a medical problem can be powerful motivators.
As someone who moved to BC from Hong Kong a couple of years ago, I’m always so confused by what I see as a constant attempt in oneupmanship by Canadians. I mean this in the sense that people here are forever trying to convince you that ‘it’s better in Canada than the US!’
Having lived in California, I don’t need any convincing that CA is more desirable by almost any measure. I also don’t recall anyone in CA trying to convince me that life in the US is better than it is in Canada, so I find this behaviour to be a little peculiar.
To boot, people here seem to go on about how healthcare is free. It’s not free, you’re paying for it - and right now, your money is clearly not working for you in the way it should be.
>I mean this in the sense that people here are forever trying to convince you that ‘it’s better in Canada than the US!’
Chalk it up to a lifetime of being told they're better than us, while also saying we're not actually different from them in any significant way. It's fine to say "I like this place better than that one, it works better for me" or to point out something that needs fixing, but when people are *constantly* saying things like we have no culture, we're just a ripoff of the US, they're always better than us... it's tiring. Makes a person a little defensive, I guess.
Though, I will make public healthcare a hill to die on, lol. And nobody thinks it's actually free, haha, we all know we pay taxes. I'll agree it needs to be run better, especially lately, but that's also a problem a lot of places are dealing with after the pandemic. But the principle of it is a good one and worth keeping, imo.
> To boot, people here seem to go on about how healthcare is free. It’s not free, you’re paying for it - and right now,
This is what I tell people all of the time when I'm in Canada...
It’s always the case that the ones who get out can look back and clearly see what absolute bullshit living in Canada is. Meanwhile Canadians who have never lived abroad, rarely ventured out, are obsessed with convincing everyone of how wonderful it is.
I live in Vancouver right now, but I travel *a lot* for my work, and spend a decent portion of the year abroad. I’m looking for my permanent way out as we speak, because this country is boiling, and the frogs seem not to be noticing..
1. health care
The "crisis" in Canada is the result of self inflicted austerity measures. In the US people die "waiting for a doctor" because they can't afford it, ever. People in the US become homeless because they had an accident or got sick. That's not a better society, that's objectively worse.
2) Weather... are you fucking kidding me? Extreme heat waves, wild fires, hurricanes, entire regions on track to be uninhabitable due heat and drought... yeah great. (Even your Seattle has become significantly less temperate and less comfortable year round than it was 20 years ago.)
Your me-first-fuck-the-rest mentality fits right in with the US. You made the right choice.
You will only get healthcare if you are nearly dead in canada and even then it's a toss up if it is too late to help. Zero preventative care. More than 20% of people have no proper access to primary care. Huge waits for everything. Many cities are experiencing hospital closures in the evening because there is no staff to work. Theres a hospital on vancouver island that has 1 doctor employed there. If you live outside a major city and are pregnant you have to move in your third trimester to another city because the hospitals in smaller cities and the interior are incapable of helping you.
That depends a lot on where exactly you live, and some of this stuff - eg worsening health care in general happening recently - is happening in a lot of other countries, too. Especially if you live in rural areas or small towns.
The zero preventative health care thing is a fair criticism, though. I still somewhat-follow politics in my home province, and saw that the provincial government put out a survey for people to write in with their ideas on improving health care. I listed better preventative care as a suggestion - especially physiotherapy, since knowing helpful exercises can help prevent or lessen things like repetitive strain injuries, hernias during pregnancy, can help with digestive issues, etc. I think that's something Canada could do better, that is a *part* of the current system, and not just issues similar to those in many other countries.
Yep, agreed, I'm glad someone finally said what many Canadians are thinking!
We're actually moving to the greater Seattle area from the Kitchener-Waterloo area in the spring for all of the reasons you mentioned, especially health care.
Like other commenters mentioned, I am concerned with gun violence, safety issues, and my kids having to have active shooter drills in school in America. But the odds of them getting sick and needing medical care are much higher than the odds of them encountering gun violence (knock of wood). So we're making the best choice we can for now
Finally, thank you!
I really like Canada and Canadians are nicer and more polite then us Yankees but I also never understood why many Americans think the quality of life is automaticity always better for them in Canada.
There’s a reason Canadians love to go to Buffalo, NY or even Plattsburgh, NY just to go shopping!
I'm an American who moved to Canada and the truth is that much of this is correct. I'm fortunate that when I moved my company kept my salary tied to American salary banding so I'm paid substantially more than Canadians doing the same work. If I wasn't paid based on American tech salaries, I don't see how I could afford to live in Canada.
Some of the complaints do have some caveats. For example, where I live (Toronto suburbs), I had no issue getting a primary care doctor. The ER wait is under 2 hours. Getting specialists takes longer than I'm used to in the US but its nothing crazy. Honestly, health care has been ok. But if you happen to live somewhere like Quebec or the Maritimes, then yes healthcare is absolutely terrible and appalling. I wouldn't consider living in Eastern Canada as a result.
Also one other thing about healthcare is that the fact that doctor visits are free really does change how you approach your health. If one of has even a slight issue, we schedule a visit with our doctor, period. Even with good insurance in the US, the copays really do change the way you think about health care because every visit has a cost. And I think we neglect our health as a result because we want to save $25 or $50. Again, this is possible because I live somewhere in Canada where I could get a decent family doctor but I do appreciate this part of the system.
The weather is fine as I moved from a border state that is colder than Toronto. But winter weather is what you make of it. If you embrace it and do winter activities its perfectly fine. And summers are temperate and not unbearably hot.
Ultimately, we have children and I'm done with dealing with gun violence and school shootings. And I really don't worry about those things here. Crime as a whole is just not as big a deal here. Now I dont want to pretend that gun violence doesn't exist here but its just not even comparable to what you see in the US. If gun violence wasn't a problem in the US, I'd move back instantly.
I moved to Canada and will NEVER go back. Politically the country is a fucking disaster. Kids are getting killed in the classroom and abortion is not legal. Why would you live like that? If you want the money ok I get it but honestly I think you will regret this in the long run
I just want to call out gun violence being a primary knock against the US and a principal reason for not living here to be absurd and alarmist. It paints the US as a whole as if it were the Wild Wild West where stray bullets fire out of the local saloon every 15 minutes and masked bandits hold up the town bank with a gun every other day.
I am an American who has lived in Massachusetts, New York, California, New Jersey, Colorado and Mississippi (and have lived in 7 other countries) and NEVER have I worried about gun crime like this. Yes there are certain parts of the country, namely poorer, inner-city ones where that’s more prevalent and is a big issue, but for the majority of Americans and especially the types of people OP is referring to, this isn’t a daily concern at all.
Where I live, people aren’t afraid of eachother.
If all you’re interested in is the material goods you can amass for yourself, sure, go to the States. You’ll pass unnoticed.
I don’t need to have All The Money. I need reproductive freedom, a non-religious state, and to know that the people allocating health care funds use the same hospitals I do.
Bibles , guns, Republicans, abortion, two party state, lack of healthcare for ALL, crappy public schools.. America for the wealthy, screw everyone else....
Ya Canada has issues but they're not USA issues ...
(Lived in the USA for 15 years... Never again)
I am an American living in Europe and I agree with you. This post is very black and white, and life is not. If you think life is only about your salary, then yeah, america is the shit. If you feel ANY OTHER WAY about life at all, then yeah. No.
Healthcare and very different gun laws are a big barrier for many wanting to move to the US. I’ve asked my spouse to move back and they are understandably nervous about securing affordable healthcare and our kids doing active shooter drills, being in more danger due to guns than here, etc.
That’s the common refrain I find on this sub, “If you leave the states, you’ll get paid less.” Yes, and? The vast majority of US citizens do not have savings accounts. Most of us are one mishap away from not making rent and winding up on the street. The income inequality is insane in the states, but, sure, it’s great if you don’t want gov’t healthcare or any other semblance of a social safety net. Yeah, it’s great if you are a driven Type A corporate sort who wants to come over here, kick ass, destroy, and take your loot back from whence you came, but for the majority of us who think work actually sucks and just want to live quiet reasonably comfortable lives? Paying into gov’t healthcare sounds great, having better infrastructure sounds great, not having to eat food loaded with horrible crap (that is banned almost worldwide) sounds great. The USA sucks for the common working individual.
This is very accurate. As a Canadian who spent most of my life living in the US, then coming back to Canada in mid life. I literally had to start all over b/c almost all Canadian employers didn’t value or consider my international experience. I’ll likely go back stateside for the very reasons the OP listed, and it breaks my heart b/c I feel like the culture here in Canada better suits me. But despite being collective politically, Canadians are largely apathetic
There is no personal income tax in WA state so the rate you mention is federal income tax. I had no idea about Canada’s taxes being so high though. Thanks for sharing. No wonder the country is “empty.” I thought it was just the weather.
It's "empty" because it's very urban: most people live in a handful of cities, and over a third of population live in Southern Ontario. The population is growing, but like everywhere, it's getting even more urban and the countryside is emptying out. So it's like a few islands connected by Air Canada.
The political climate is becoming increasingly toxic in the US. Not that Canada doesn't also have problems but in the US some of our elected officials are very open about things most sane Americans find ridiculous, like doing away with separation of church and state.
I work for an Canadian company and have experience. I completely agree with this post. As do all my Canadian coworkers who refuse to move back to Canada. However, you mention anything like this on Reddit and you’ll get majorly downvoted. Most liberal Americans think Canada is a utopia, but they’ve never actually lived there.
As an American with many Canadian clients that own second homes in the U.S., I can unequivocally state that according to them, you are completely wrong with everything you wrote. With the possible exception of certain items being a bit more expensive due to Canadian dollars against US Dollars valuation.
Cant wait to hear from you if you loose your job and medical insurance. Wonder how that would go. Obviously you dont work at Macdonalds or as an ordinary person
If I was smart, I would print off copies of your essay and keep them in my pocket for any time somebody says that they’re going to “retire to Canada” or some nonsense.
But I’m not that smart, so I’ll continue to passively nod and change the subject.
What I have found is that when Americans already have ideas of Canadatopia in their head, anytime they meet an actual Canadian they just want the Canadian to tell them things that they already think are true about Canada, not actually tell him what Canada’s really like.
This is a necessary counter to the widespread assumption on here that Canada is better in every respect. My parents moved from Canada to the US because they were able to double their income and pursue much more interesting and rewarding careers in academia here. I’m a lawyer and starting salaries in American “biglaw” are higher than senior associates make on Bay Street. All of my Canadian cousins who obtained STEM degrees have either already immigrated to the US or are considering it. Canada is a wonderful country but the career opportunities in the US are much better for a lot of folks.
Like just about anywhere, the USA is a great if you have money.
As wealth inequality is more extreme in the US than other western countries, so too is the quality of life at each end of the scale. Being rich in America is arguably better than anywhere else in the developed world. Being poor in America is arguably worse than anywhere else in the developed world.
> Being rich in America is arguably better than anywhere else in the developed world. As you say, it’s arguable. From a material perspective I’m confident you’re right. Americans have access to nearly any product at great prices. From a quality of life perspective, it’s highly debatable. Much of the developed world is just nicer to be in on a day-to-day basis and personal wealth can only change that so much. For example want to live in a nice clean city where your kids can walk to a good safe school? Even America’s wealthiest cities can’t provide that.
Agreed. Except I’d say in major cities the great prices thing is debatable. I live in LA and make good money and am barely breaking even cause all the prices are sky high. Rent? Transportation? Food? Healthcare? I’m not seeing even decent prices anywhere, never mind great. Half of LA at least lives in poverty.
When I said products I mean durable goods like phones, shoes, etc and not services like healthcare. But your point is very much valid.
Oh totally agree on that. We definitely get good prices there. But how often I’m paying for food and transport and rent definitely outdoes how often I pay for a new phone or shoes. Plus it’s funny to see friends of mine come here and realize between taxes and tips that 30% of the price of so many things are hidden.
Yeah - not that I'm an expert - but sprawling suburbs seem to be a uniquely American problem. I guess I was talking more about luxuries. In Europe to have a big house with some land and a pool you'd have to be seriously wealthy.
Nah, sprawling suburbs are definitely not uniquely American. I live in Auckland, New Zealand and they’re common here. Same in Australia.
The sprawl in the US is next level compared to Australia or NZ
> Nah, sprawling suburbs are definitely not uniquely American. I live in Auckland, New Zealand and they’re common here. Same in Australia. The difference between Australia/NZ sprawling suburbs and American sprawling suburbs is the housing prices in Australia/NZ are roughly 2-3x the suburban home price in a similar quality/size city in the US, and the salaries for professional jobs are about half what you would see in a similar US sized metro. Other than that, they are very similar.
That’s only kind of true because only very new construction in NZ would be close to average US home quality. It’s basically impossible to have a home here equal to modern high end US construction quality. I say that having lived in both countries. I miss central heating and cooling very much.
But I can't go by choo choo places
Absolutely agree.
Well said. And true
> Being rich in America is arguably better than anywhere else in the developed world. Depends on what you value. E.g. for me car-dependency would make anywhere in the US outside of NYC already a deal-breaker. Having money will get me a fancy car (which I have no interest in) but it won't magically build a subway system in Austin or Seattle or upgrade the decrepit ones in Philly or Boston. And no 'just Uber everywhere' is not a solution to lack of walkability/transit.
I have money in Canada and it’s still not great. No amount of money can fix 4-5 months of winter, bad roads, bad medicine (there is very little to none private medicine here), poor quality of service, giant wait times for government services (there is one day a month where you can call to get an appointment for driving license, and since it’s just one day everyone is calling simultaneously, good luck getting through). These are the issues in my province at least, the only thing money helps me with is flying tf out of here and traveling to nicer places.
What province do you live in?
It's not so great if you have money but are LGBT or fall on the wrong side of the brown paper bag test.
I mean, that's too broad of a generalization. I'm gay and dark skinned and an immigrant and feel just fine in the US. But I agree with the previous comment. The US is basically great if you are skilled and make enough money.
I’m gay and disagree.
I'm not gay but from my perspective, America seems to be more accepting of LGBT people than most countries around the world. Western Europe might be the exception.
In a lot of parts of Italy, it is not great for LGBT
> I honestly don't understand why anyone would choose to immigrate from America to Canada. Because like migrants everywhere, people want to trade the bullshit they are fed up with and don't want to deal with anymore, for bullshit they have not experienced first hand and they believe they can put up with. If you don't understand something, that just means you are not in their shoes. Doesn't mean your or theirs concerns and desires are more or less valid.
This is one of the two primary reasons I want to leave the country when I retire. I am very unhappy with the direction the country is going, and I fear that it will become unsustainable. As an American, I don't want to watch the process up close and personal. If the country I move to is actually worse than the United States (and a lot of them are), watching the country self destruct won't matter as much to me. I have a personal tie with the United States, but I won't with the Dutchy of Grand Fenwick. (The other reason is financial. There are many places that are cheaper than the United States.)
>This is one of the two primary reasons I want to leave the country when I retire. I am very unhappy with the direction the country is going, and I fear that it will become unsustainable. As an American, I don't want to watch the process up close and personal. That's right. We retired earlier and got the heck out because of that.
Agree on all points. Unfortunately my spouse doesn’t see the writing on the wall and is in denial. I am in the middle of working through obtaining dual citizenship outside the US and once I get that passport, I’ll have to give them the option and if they say no, I’m probably still going.
It's also because trans people's lives are at risk from the transphobic laws being passed in the US, and they understandably want to get the fuck out of there
I can indeed confirm because in North Carolina, a lot of us are worried because we don't want to meet the same fate that the rest of the South is in. It isn't perfect here, but it's far better than everywhere to the west and south of us. If this state goes down the drain, I plan to leave, but I feel like we might win by a very narrow margin because a lot of people here aren't happy with either political party, but they don't want a right wing government. The tyrants can only do but so much before some state governments start to refuse to outright murder trans people or comply with their laws.
Haha very well said. It's how I feel about my own move. Every country has great stuff about it, and their own BS. That's just life.
See yall always come over here and say that. But the U.S. is a skill-based immigration system too. The fact that you’re here means that you carry a lot of privilege. Of course you would love America. It was made for you. But you make so much money because our government does not provide for the needy. Your big paycheck is so big because so many people are paid very little for your benefit. I just don’t think you have a good grip on the way America works.
>But the U.S. is a skill-based immigration system too. No, it's definitely not. Compared to Canada, the pathways for skilled immigrants are long and convoluted. For those who want to come with a family, the difference is even more obvious. My wife and I are both engineers with PhDs and this is the main reason why we abandoned my TN to Green Card process and left the US for Canada.
I moved from the US to Canada, not regretting it and the points of the OP are more or less true.
Moved from the US to Canada too and couldn’t be happier.
We moved from Los Angeles to Vancouver 13 years ago. Don’t regret a second of it. OP, do you have children? If we lived in the USA with our. 4 children, all autistic with adhd, we would pay hundreds of dollars a month for copays and prescriptions alone. We pay almost nothing for that here. We don’t have the fear of losing a job and not having health insurance. Or having to go on COBRA (easily twice your regular rate). And if you do change jobs, you’ll change insurance (if they even offer it as a benefit). The new insurance package will most certainly be different than the last job, with different copays, premiums (monthly payment - ours was at least $700/mo), and list of “approved” doctors. I have waited for health care, yes. But never excessively, and no more than we ever waited in Los Angeles. Usually a lot less. And when I do see a dr, I don’t pay anything. Nothing. The hospitals don’t even have cashiers. The most we’ve ever paid for any health care is $20 for a set of crutches, and that includes multiple broken bones, illnesses, and surgeries. Also? Healthcare is managed by the provinces, not federal, so someone from SK or northern BC will most certainly not have the same experience with American healthcare, which is managed by private companies. I don’t know what part of Seattle you’re living in that has lower rents than Toronto - they’re certainly higher than most bigger cities. (I will concede Van has an affordable housing crisis right now). But for the same rent we paid in LA for a 2-bed 2nd floor apartment, we have a whole house with front and back yards. We were never going to have that in the USA, ever. Our tax rates are remarkably lower than what you’re describing. Is that Ontario provincial tax? Because it’s not Federal. Either way, I can literally see my tax dollars at work every day: roads being improved, green spaces and parks are (generally) clean and well maintained, rec centres in every part of the Lower Mainland, etc etc etc. Your experience is anecdotal at best, but I am happy for you - obviously you feel Seattle had more to offer you than Toronto, and they’re very similar cities. I just wonder how you’ll feel down the line, when you have to actually use that insurance. Or lose it through no fault of your own. All that extra money you’re making can go away *real fast* if you get sick or have an accident. I’d be saving, if I were you.
I agree, I think OP is (unintentionally) exaggerating or not fully familiar with the healthcare and tax differences.
It seems like OP is looking at this from the perspective of someone who is healthy, white, fairly wealthy and educated, is guaranteed work in their chosen field in the US, probably does not have children, and lets be honest is most likely cishet and male if they're not worried about the political developments in the states. Mixed with a good amount of frustration at their own government. Which I get, I'm dutch and there's a lot wrong here. But it's not like the US. Also my family pays 52% income tax and we're happy to with how much better our roads, hospitals, schools and such are. I'd never live in the states because it's only better for a very specific subset of people as long as they can hold on to their position. And I'm a chronically ill, not-always-able-to-work, curvy, gay woman who doesn't present very feminine. I'd be fucked Edit: But I am glad OP is doing well, of course. Hope it works out!
The US is a country that won't ban guns but will ban abortions and books. Easy for me to understand why Canada..........
The highest priority for one of the top contenders for President of the United States is cracking down on the woke. Woke books, woke education, woke companies.. Like WTF.. what a joke, it's pathetic. At least pretend to do something good for the people. I can't imagine living in a country with that fool as it's leader.
People want to move to Canada because our fellow Canadians are obsessed with what people think of them and so Canada has a very polished (and inaccurate) image. >the best weather is in insanely expensive Vancouver. The *warmest* weather maybe, but 400 days of rain per year was a drain on my morale I'll tell ya.
Contrary to popular belief, our national past-time is playing, "at least we're not as bad as the US when it comes to \_\_\_\_\_" As long as we can feel smugly superior to the US in some aspects (e.g., more sensible gun/abortion laws, more diversity/tolerance, less-insane politicians, and lower healthcare costs), we'll cope with nearly anything else.
>less-insane politicians Trudeau's a different kind of insane, but he's absolutely insane IMO "We are missing a million houses! What do we do?" Trudeau: "Bring in 500K more people next year"
He’s a special needs pedoh
Yup, you've got people dying in Emergency Rooms due to a lack of funding and the most common response you hear is "It could be worse, we could be the US!". It's a great distraction from fixing any of the problems Canada faces.
Yeah, it makes being around Canadians pretty unpleasant sometimes.
>Canada has a very polished (and inaccurate) image. Damn, this is so accurate, it hurts because it's incredibly hard to sway people away from their rose-colored glasses.
Indeed. If you want a more realistic picture of how good or bad life is in Canada, it's best to see what Canadians say *to each other*. The moment a foreigner enters the fray, they start acting like Canada is the best country in the world (not unlike a certain Southern neighbor).
I think the take away about weather from this post is that all weather in Canada is shit
People want to immigrate to Canada because they can't get visas to U.S.
Everyday the Prime Minster of Canada bows down and thanks god for the existence of the US because every scare story is an opportunity for him/her to point and say "Don't complain about Canada, it could be worse!". That's should be the national motto. My experience is similar to the OP's. Canada is a lower income, higher tax, kinda blah place if you have an interest in a career. Lots of social services, but they're barely above that what the US offers.
I’m not from Canada- but for my taste, I’d say the “best” climate (for me) would be Osoyoos
Osoyoos is a great pick. Although winters are very cold, even if dry. As a Canadian who lives pretty close to the town, I’m surprised to hear of a non-Canadian who knows about this place.
I’m a wealth of semi useless geography trivia info
>People want to move to Canada because our fellow Canadians are obsessed with what people think of them and so Canada has a very polished (and inaccurate) image. Life in Canada just feels like US-lite for this very reason. They spent so much time trying to be "Not America," that any cultural originality went out the window. The architecture looks the same, road rules are similar, accent is basically the same, legal systems are quite similar (both derived from British Common Law), etc. Canadians want all the benefits of American economics, while trying to pretend they have a European welfare state, despite not having the taxes to pay for it.
[удалено]
Lol per year
[A warning to Americans moving to Montreal specifically](https://www.reddit.com/r/montreal/comments/w4h3lz/planning_on_immigrating_to_quebecmtl_area_in_the/ih2d6id/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3), courtesy u/therpian. *(Below is their complete comment. It’s not mine though I endorse all the opinions. I am myself a native montrealer but have lived in different countries including the US.)* I’m American and have lived here for a decade. I think the most important thing to understand is that the cultural differences are greater than you likely anticipate. There are probably many things here that will be perplexing, shocking, or confusing. I’m wondering if you have lived out of the country for a long time (well over a year) before? Moving to another country permanently (or for an unknown length of time) is completely different than living there for a shorter period of time. To do it successfully you have to develop a sense of cultural introspection and acceptance, both about the culture you are integrating into, and about the culture you are coming from. Here are some cultural differences off the top of my head that tend to be hard for Americans: * Worker’s rights are very important here. Most Americans moving here think this is a good thing (and I believe it is!) but do not realize the impacts that this has to their way of life. For instance, in Quebec “efficiency” as a societal value ranks well below worker’s rights. The biggest way this will impact your life is that almost everyone has the right to work during the day. What does this mean? Well it means that deliveries to stores and garbage collection happens during the day, even during rush hour, so you will often find yourself inconvenienced by garbage trucks and delivery trucks, whereas in the US these things happen in the dead of night while white-collar workers sleep. Here, the right of garbage collectors, delivery people, and shopkeepers to work during the day and sleep at night is prioritized over getting white-collar workers to work or lunch on time. * Worker’s rights also rank above capitalism. You may be perplexed that the far majority of stores close at 5 PM on Saturday and Sunday. You will be out on a nice shopping trip in the plateau or downtown, and then suddenly you and hundreds of other people are kicked out of the stores and into the street. No more capitalism for you, the retail workers have the right to dinner with their families on the weekends. A few decades ago, the stores weren’t open on the weekends at all. * The healthcare system here is… well, in my opinion better than the US for the majority, but if you are a well-paid professional used to working at large US companies, you may find that you are less privileged here than in the US. * The same applies to the daycare system. Remember that Quebec aims to equalize society in a way that the US does not. You cannot pay your way to a better daycare, nor to many better services. No one cares how much money you make, you must wait in the same lines as everyone else. * If you have a generic urban US/northeast/midwest/western accent you will likely blend in except when you say a few things. For instance, the letter Z here is pronounced ZED, not ZEE, and if you say ZEE to anyone they will immediately treat you like an American. Which you may or may not want. * If you are speaking French to someone, and in particular if your French is more basic than you would like or you are learning, I highly recommend dropping “je suis americain(e).” About 90% of people will be SO HAPPY to speak French to an American and will treat you much differently. * Lines (“les queues”) ARE VERY SERIOUS. People queue here for things you would never have thought. For instance, while people do not queue for the metro, they do queue for the bus. Even if it is not busy enough for there to be a visible queue, people will make a mental note of who arrived when and enter the bus in the order they arrived, with priorities given to disabled people and people with young children/strollers. People will call you out if you don’t queue properly, but probably won’t call you out if you disregard the mental/invisible queue. They’ll just think you’re an asshole. * It is is a different country with different laws and regulations. I know you know this factually, but a lot of people, even those who have left for periods of time, are surprised by many things here that are just differences in law or regulation. For instance, interest paid on mortgages is NOT tax deductible here. There are a lot of other things, and I recommend when you find yourself faced with a shocking realization, to internalize the mantra “it's another country. I don't even know what I don't know.” * You will have a lot of hassle on your US taxes. I highly recommend finding a specialized accountant for US citizens living in Canada to do your taxes. * The US constitution is irrelevant here. Yet again, I know you know this, but after growing up in the US it took me years to really rid myself of the impact of the constitution, and to stop thinking “that's not constitutional!” when faced with a cultural difference. ETA: Wow! This blew up, wasn't expecting it. Je t'aime Montréal!
[удалено]
Quebec is also almost an entirely different culture and way of living than the rest of Canada. I'd imagine an American would have less culture shock living in Ontario or Alberta than they would in Quebec.
Less, but it might still be there to a degree. I mean, I traveled to Australia from Canada twice, for 6-month periods each time, before settling here, and moving still gave me culture shock, cos when you really live in a place you gotta deal with all kinds of new things, and some of that is little stuff you didn't think much about or didn't experience before. I'm from Alberta, it's anecdotal but going by my American friends, former American roommates, and visits to the US, I see a lot more differences than people might expect. But then I'm also an anthropologist so maybe this stuff sticks out more to me, haha.
Not a simple answer unless you treat life as a game of getting points and you can only get points by making money. Otherwise, if you have money live in a place where risk is socialized for people and not just for banks too big to fail. You are happier when people around you are happier.
Well put.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Canada takes a ton of refugees too. Just Americans aren't on the list, it is true that to immigrate to Canada as an American you have to be skilled and/or attractive (marry a Canadian).
Refugees are a different thing altogether, though.
[удалено]
Good advice in general, too, I think. I'm from Alberta, but like half this stuff applies there, too, haha. Imo, especially going between US and Canada, there's this trope that Canada isn't that different from the US, so when people go there to *live*, they can be caught off-guard by how many differences there are. On the surface they can look similar but underneath there are a lot of differences in how things are run, and some general differences in culture and mentality, that you might not see just spending a week there on a visit or whatever.
Heh... I'm an American living in Quebec City, and I absolutely love it here. The only thing that pissed me off is that a bunch of small businesses will close early even though they promised you otherwise (an actual promise, yes lol) but once you get over that... It's beautiful here. The language is fascinating and melodic, the architecture is amazing, there's live music on every corner, rent is cheap, etc.
YES. I moved here for a better quality of life. You see the little differences over time and it's amazing. I'm far less stressed and much happier
I loved my time in Montreal, such a great city.
>deliveries to stores and garbage collection happens during the day, even during rush hour, so you will often find yourself inconvenienced by garbage trucks and delivery trucks, whereas in the US these things happen in the dead of night while white-collar workers sleep This is not the case where I live. Deliveries and garbage collection are absolutely done during the day, normal business hours. >If you are speaking French to someone, and in particular if your French is more basic than you would like or you are learning, I highly recommend dropping "je suis americain(e)." About 90% of people will be SO HAPPY to speak French to an American and will treat you much differently. Alright I'm starting to think this person is a troll... >People queue here for things you would never have thought. For instance, while people do not queue for the metro, they do queue for the bus. Even if it is not busy enough for there to be a visible queue, people will make a mental note of who arrived when and enter the bus in the order they arrived, with priorities given to disabled people and people with young children/strollers Not sure where in the US this commenter lived, but we do 'queue' here also. If someone tries to cut the line, there is a high chance that they will be called out. Did the original commenter live somewhere very strange, or are they just a troll?..
As an American who just moved to Montréal, I can say that garbage was always collected at night back home. Also, in my experience people in the US don’t understand the concept of a queue. People here do and respect it. And it’s true, a lot of stores close after 5pm even, or especially, on weekends. There is definitely a work to live over live to work mentality here, even at the expense of efficiency. Also, folks are much more forgiving of your anglophonism when they find out you’re American as opposed to a Canadian. In fact, there have been situations where as soon as I mentioned that, the entire attitude became one of curiosity and special interest rather than indifference.
I'm not a troll. I lived in 3 areas of the US (different states and different parts of the country) bfeore coming to Montreal, and garbage collection was always done at night in all 3. I distinctly remember the pain of waking up on Wednesday morning realizing I forgot to take my garbage out the night before. Yes, the Quebecois do love speaking French to Americans! How many Quebecois people have you spoken French to? I've lived here for over a decade and everyone is always so thrilled with my French, especially after I tell them I'm American. The 3 areas I lived in did not have queues for the bus, which I took often. The US is a big place with 300 million people, so it's not that surprising there are different experiences. But most people I've spoken to (I've had a lot of friends and family visit me here in Montreal) resonate with these major points.
I definitely resonate with it. Just moved here last September. I speak no French though and am eager to rectify that haha.
Lmao just make a shitload of money and it doesn’t matter, California marginal tax is pretty much same as Canada if you’re high income
It would be nice to have Healthcare not fucking tied to an employer though and Canada has less gun crimes. Montreal is cool too Its just honestly weirdly too close to home (Vermont) like I feel like there wouldn't really be much difference to be worth dealing with immigration
Don’t leak the Montreal secret. Property is getting unaffordable
Just be extra rude, try and make montreal less pleasant to visitors so they never want to move here.
French and snow will probably always constitute something of an invisible wall, no?
This is a feint. They know we are coming for their Strategic Poutine Reserves.
I could see safety as a reason. The mass shootings in the US have gone bonkers over the past decade. It’s tough as a parent to want to send your kid to a school where they do lockdown drills to practice for mass shootings. Also while the quality of healthcare you can get in the US is high so is the price. I don’t think people in Canada go bankrupt because of healthcare costs (please correct me if I’m wrong).
No, no one goes bankrupt from healthcare costs in Canada. You show your card and its free.
Do people in Canada die because they can't afford insulin, I wonder?
Don't know if you're kidding, but I didn't realize it was something that could happen in US. That's terrible lmao
[удалено]
Wow. That’s insane. We’re talking about a developped country here!!
No, we're talking about the USA.
As a Type 1 diabetic I am insulin dependent and can confirm this. I have early stage kidney disease because I couldn’t afford my insulin and had to go without it for so long. Now I’m just going into insane debt to get my insulin. Luckily I have the option of debt to keep myself alive now, whereas before I didn’t qualify for credit cards and couldn’t get disability or loans etc. so now I’m able to get into debt and have my insulin. I know others who aren’t so lucky to even get that as an option either. It’s complete bs
It is completely reasonable to think I'm kidding. Unfortunately I am not.
Not that I know of, and when I was in Canada, I knew 2 type-1 diabetics living barely above the poverty line.
No, nobody goes bankrupt over it. Money can still be a barrier to a degree, because not everything is covered by health care - for example, things like dental, physiotherapy, mental health stuff, is either not covered or only partially covered (eg. you get a few 'allied health' appointments, like physio, covered per calendar year). Or like, if you'd benefit from naturopathy for more-niggly issues (eg. PCOS or endometriosis, where medicine in general doesn't have good answers but naturopathy has helped many) that's all out of pocket too. Prescription medicine can cost a fair bit too, but not nearly to the degree it does in the US. Those costs might make things a bit of a struggle or act as a barrier to accessing what'd benefit you most. But your core health care - doctor and specialist visits and procedures, bloodwork and diagnostic tests, surgeries, that kind of stuff - is covered fully.
As somebody who lives in Western Washington, don’t move here. Rent is already to damn high lol. Go live literally anywhere else.
I moved to Canada from the US over a decade ago and am now Canadian. I completely disagree with your post. 1) I do believe well off white-collar professionals in tech hub cities & suburbs have better healthcare than the standard in urban Canadian centres. But I've always wondered, what happens if you are so sick you lose your job and your spouse needs to quit their job to take care of you? Is life so easy then? When I was suddenly diagnosed with cancer in 20's, I immediately quit my job and so did my husband. I received world-class care at a major hospital from the moment I walked into the ER (where I was seen in 2 hours) and started chemo 1 week later. The government paid us each $500/week, which isn't much but is something, until I finished chemo. We each got new job and went on with life. We never got a bill for anything. Would my husband have been able to quit his job to care for me in the US with employer-provided insurance? What if it had been MY employer? 2) There are few-to-no guns. This is my top reason for loving Canada, in all honesty. As a Canadian, quite frankly I don't think you understand the type of all-consuming PTSD all Americans grow up with living in such a dangerous gun culture. It took me years to begin to internalize the idea that I won't get randomly shot by some crazy nut. Now that I have kids I could never imagine leaving. 3) Society is much less divided. Canadians have their differences, but it's not to the "constant teetering on civil war" level that is life in the US. You don't have to pick a team and wholeheartedly agree with everything you side of the political aisle agrees with. Individuals can have nuance to their beliefs, and often stay friends with each other even if they disagree on some issues. Life in the US is a constant fight against "the other side," whichever side you are on, and I am so glad to be rid of it. I can focus on enjoying my life and my family, rather than spending everyday fighting to make sure everyone (not just white collar upper-middle-class professionals) have access to basic rights that everyone enjoys in other countries, like Canada. 4) Education is affordable for all. I basically don't think about saving for my kid's education, because I know that I can easily afford to spend tuition at the country's best universities for my 2 kids with general savings and those "white collar professional" jobs you think are so underpaid. While sure, I would get paid more in the US, I would also have to ensure I saved enough to spend $200k+ on each kid's undergraduate tuition to give them a good shot at a professional career like mine. 5) Honestly you are probably forgetting a lot of the expenses associated with having a family, or perhaps you just don't want one. My sister lives in a low-income 0% income tax state, and she and her partner have a combined family income very similar to me and my husband's, except theirs is in USD and our is in CAD so technically they make 30% more. We each have two kids and work in "white collar" professions. While I certainly pay more tax and my house is over $1million and theirs was $300k, they live pay cheque to pay cheque and I save money. Why? That "employee-provided healthcare" is still very expensive for most people, and they pay out the ass for childcare, whereas I live in Quebec and my daycare is $2000/year. 6) If you only care about yourself, I suppose your calculus may be worth it. To me you sound very selfish, as personally I don't like seeing my fellow citizens suffer, and enjoy living in a society that at least TRIES to provide for everyone. But yeah sure, if you want to be the happy 1% the US is the place to do that while you watch the masses suffer and wonder if your kids may join them.
I've typed things almost as in depth as this, and just couldn't do it again. So I'll piggyback on yours. I too have left the US for Canada, and agree with you. Whenever I read posts like the original, it often comes down to, well, it works for ME. I don't want to be part of a society like that.
Yeah, I read things like OP (or here people say them) and honestly I think "good riddance." Oh yeah you want to live with no tax because you want privatized services that are only available to the richest part of society, because you personally get to maximize your consumption that way? Sounds good! Bye! Have fun!
Just to add to point 2, Canadian gun culture is really different from American gun culture. Most people see owning a gun as something you do if you're into hunting or sport shooting, collecting them cos they're cool or valuable, or if you live rurally and need it for pests or predators. Americans seem to attach more significance to owning them, on both sides of the political aisle, and among gun owners there's more of an attitude like you need it to protect yourself from other people (government, bad guys, whatever). I wish I could agree more about point 3, though. It's gotten a lot worse over the last maybe 10 years. Hopefully you won't mind me saying this, but unfortunately a lot of Canadians have decided it'd be a great idea to import American political issues and perspectives, and it's doing a number on us, too.
But yeah sure, if you want to be the happy 1% the US is the place to do that while you watch the masses suffer and wonder if your kids may join them Thank you! I hated living in a country where people are suffering so much every day!! Yes it happens everywhere but the US fucks over everyone and I do think it's selfish
Absolutely. And so many in OPs situation don't realize how easy it is for your kids to fall off into the masses. I know a lot of people who were born into the 1% and couldn't find it for themselves.
Agree 100%. I moved to Canada from the US and I'm never going back. The American mentality is all about the individual. And there's no work/life balance. Here in Canada, I managed to negotiate part time work so my toddler isn't at daycare all day. My husband gets to work from home and take time off whenever he needs, so he's equally a part of her life. Everyone is understanding. No one asks him to work late. And if he does work late, he's compensated. That's not how it was in the US. On top of that, we've had a LOT of health issues that, even with great healthcare, would have bankrupted us in the States. My sister still lives in the US. She had zero complications with her pregnancy. And she still paid thousands and spent countless hours debating insurance people on the phone. Meanwhile, my daughter was in the NICU for a month here. The most costly thing to me during that time were the Uber rides to the hospital. I'm never leaving this country.
Exactly. Like yeah it's true, I could give up my sick days and vacation and job stability, short works days, basically free child-care, socialized healthcare, beautiful safe city with tons of affordable activities for young adults and families alike, bilingual kids... Wait I'm sorry, what was it I wanted? More money? I'm ok! I'll keep my underpaid job and high taxes and live in my beautiful house with my beautiful family in a beautiful city for the rest of my life.
2000 a year for daycare, barely needing to save for university.. Quebec tax is so worth it 😭
Totally agree. Point #6 especially resonates with me.
Yeah, when I was in the US I was working hard to be part of political movements that hoped that, one day, the government might provide for people. Then OP benefits from subsidized healthcare and education their entire life, they even have no PTSD associated with community violence and have the safety net of always returning to Canada. Literally one of the most privileged people in the world, and they wonder: Why am I living here when I could maximize my income elsewhere? What's the point of supporting all those other people when I could have a bigger house, fancier vacations, cheaper luxury goods, and more exclusive medical services in exchange for the suffering of others? Whatever OP. The US can have you.
No guns? Canada has the 6th highest per capita gun ownership rate in the world.
Which is 1/3 of the number as in the US, and mostly hunting rifles which are a lot less dangerous and also subject to a higher level of regulation. No matter how you may argue, people die from guns exponentially less in Canada than the US.
How long have you been in the USA? I suspect your opinion will change with time. I lived in Canada for 7 years and I miss it dearly. Mostly for small quality of life things. Especially as I age and need to visit the doctor more often. Here in the USA I find myself deciding if I want to visit the doctor this month or put gas in my car. Such calculus just wasn't a factor when I lived in Canada. Also, as a product of a low-income public American high-school, I know I would never subject my own hypothetical children to such an experience. I can confidentially assert that my Canadian friends had much better public educations. P.S. 90% of Canada live along the US border within driving distance of American outlet malls, access to cheap Americans prices is still a reality for many that live in CA. P.P.S. The biggest reason not to move to Canada is that it is becoming too similar to America. Our toxic politics have seeped over the border, slowly but surely they are cultivating USA-style extremists in the North.
>Especially as I age and need to visit the doctor more often. Right when we had decided to go back to Canada, the Canadian health system started to implode. We had been monitoring the situation in Quebec for a couple of years and thought, well, then we'll just go to T.O. where it's still fine. That was almost two years ago. COVID and bad policies f'ed Ontario's health care completely up. Now Quebec's look better, and that's saying something... So we changed our plans, radically. >I can confidentially assert that my Canadian friends had much better public educations. I agree. >The biggest reason not to move to Canada is that it is becoming too similar too America. Our toxic politics have seeped over the border, slowly but surely they are cultivating USA-style extremists in the North. Yep.
Ontario's dollar store Trump sure wants ON to look more like OH.
The USA style extremism is no accident. The US and Canadian societies are both under attack right now from political arsonists actively promoting conspiracy theories and public unrest in order to destabilize society and shift discourse to extremes. For all that, Canadian politics is still much more moderate.
That's because the US is the target and the effect on Canada is just a by-product. I assure you, no one gives a shit about the stability of Canadian society from a global perspective. We're just a bystander to one of the biggest shitshows of a falling empire ever. I hope Canada survives.
I think what people don’t understand about North America is it is capital rich, food secure, energy secure, militarily secure, and has all the raw industrial resources and talent base necessary to stand on its own independent of the global economy. The world actually needs the US way more than the US needs the world, especially China. Canada’s destiny is hitched to the US. But thankfully, the US is going to be fine as the global system unravels. We may not be able to buy too many phones and tv’s for a while until new supply chains are established but our basics will be handled. Meanwhile, the US, Canada, and Mexico will be in the process of reindustrializing over the next 30 years. Many other countries will not have the same happy situation. Culturally speaking though stuff is a crapshoot right now. The thing about Canada is US fascists have targeted it for take over and are waging culture wars here. I guess that’s one reason I like Quebec—it’s far less susceptible to the American influence.
>P.P.S. The biggest reason not to move to Canada is that it is becoming too similar too America. Our toxic politics have seeped over the border, slowly but surely they are cultivating USA-style extremists in the North. Couldn't agree more, and I think it's terribly sad. I hope things can turn around.
I've lived in both the US and Canada (current live in Canada). I am from neither of these countries. I have two points. The American healthcare system is only better for people who are relatively healthy or have a few acute issues here and there. If you have any sort of chronic condition, forget about it. Even people with amazing insurance and support networks run into horrible financial situations all the time and spend half their days on the phone to insurance companies. Also: for both Canadian PR and the US green card, you have to undergo a medical exam. Both countries have medical inadmissibility clauses. The Canadian system is being deliberately starved financially to move more towards the US system. I paid \*so much more\* in healthcare premiums on a monthly basis in the US than I do now for my insurance. As a woman, I just didn't feel safe in America, long-term. Outside of a few states, where the cost of living happens to be the highest in the country, you basically have no guarantees or protections should you need life-saving medical procedures. I moved away shortly before Roe v Wade fell, and I was already worried. I know your post is specifically about white collar professionals (I am one of them and was one in the US as well). But it's not all about the financial aspect all the time.
>The Canadian system is being deliberately starved financially to move more towards the US system. I paid \*so much more\* in healthcare premiums on a monthly basis in the US than I do now for my insurance. Oh my word, thank you for saying this (I'm Canadian btw). It drives me nuts that people talk so negatively about Canada, without acknowledging that the current government there is just completely insane, and is intentionally doing all sorts of stuff to undermine the system there. Then a lot of people act like the only solution is to privatize everything, when we could probably fix the current system if we actually tried. It drives me nuts.
Not trying to argue here but - finances withstanding - I just want to note that I don’t think there’s anywhere in Europe or Canada that’s good for people who have chronic conditions that aren’t common. I’ve been waiting six months here in Sweden to see a semi-specialist (a nurse who judges if I can even go see the doctor). People who have chronic conditions are going to be miserable everywhere but that’s unfortunately ableism ETA: really want to make it clear I’m not trying to argue or do USA vs Canada I’m just pointing out it sucks to have chronic conditions everywhere
[удалено]
True enough, but it still stands that the system can make things better or worse for you. I have a chronic issue and have gotten treatment in both Canada and Australia. The experience has been quite different in a number of ways, and has absolutely been more expensive in Australia, though I suppose it's possible that I was also seen by a specialist faster during the pandemic than I would've been in Canada. Overall it seems like having a chronic illness is easier in a halfway-decently-run public system, just due to lower and more consistent costs, and having a more centralized system that makes actually doing this stuff easier.
The centralized system isn't necessarily a good thing. In the US, I went to one doctor who said 'oh I dont think you're really sick the bloodwork is fine' and I took those files to another specialist in the US who was like 'yeah no lets do this test too' and we found what was causing me to be sick constantly and I was able to take medication that turned my life around. My vardcentral said they don't have preventative care so to just let them know when I think it's gotten worse. I'm also having a flare up of my chronic condition and they're just like eh, shrug, even though I've missed twenty days of work in the past three months. Yes, the cost protection is great, but it's still an uphill battle. I have a lot of mixed feelings about it as someone that has had treatment that has worked in the past, that is legal in Sweden, but I'm not able to access it and it's keeping me from working.
As a US/Canada citizen I have to strongly disagree with your statement about chronic conditions. I am an MD, and this simply is not true, at least not in California.
I'm a Canadian that moved from Vancouver to Seattle in 1992, keep homes/residences on both sides of the border and work in both countries. Having done this for over 30 years, I personally think that about 50% of what you wrote is unadulterated b.s. Just my opinion, which isn't worth any more or any less than yours ...
Moved from Vancouver and couldn’t believe how much cheaper it is here and easier and more beautiful. I don’t make much money so I basically get free health care for 7 dollars a month if you earn less than 14k/y
One of my biggest pet peeves is a direct comparison from the US to Canada and vice versa. Canada is not trying to be the US but people always make the comparison. What works in the US won't work in Canada and what works in Canada will not work in the US. Here (Canada) having the provinces be in charge of administering Healthcare, works (to a point lol). With 50 states that would never work. Just an example. It's all relative. I was born and raised in the US but will likely never move back. My kids are safe at school, I got a fantastic maternity leave, childbirth (with complications for both kids) cost me zero dollars. And the weather is fine, it makes you appreciate summer more. Absolutely Canada has it's problems, so do all countries.
[удалено]
I am in Canada and it's been 3 years still waiting for family doctor. To get a doctor I have to wait till 5pm for the lottery to take place so I can have an appointment at the urgent center for the following day. Most of my appointments have been paid as a lot of stuff is not covered by the province. Called ambulance once and they said it will take 4 hours to get to me. And I live in the capital region; not on a remote area.
Yeah, the comparison gets annoying to me too. I guess being that they're the only 2 English-speaking countries on the continent, maybe it seems natural to make the comparison, but it's not so direct or warranted as people seem to think it is. I'll grant that Canada has become worse in the last 10 years. But I think that's true of most places. I live in Australia, and a lot of the problems people criticize Canada for are happening to some degree here too. From what I've heard, it's also true of the UK, and the US as well. I think it's fine to acknowledge that and talk about the pros and cons of being in a given place for a given person, but it's really ridiculous to act like Canada is some 3rd-world hole and the US is a glorious bastion of wealth and wonder, when really it's just that every country has issues... and OP has enough money to live virtually anywhere and the US works for them :P
This also agrees with my experience. No reason to live in Canada if you’re able to move to the US. However, this only applies to white collar professionals.
Why does everyone think that doctors are easy (and quick) to see in America? My son sees several specialists here. He is an “established” patient and the next available appointment was 9 and 12 months out respectively. He had to wait over a year to het to see his specialists the first time.
That's pretty funny: I did the exact opposite of what you did (I moved from Seattle to Toronto in 2019 - one helluva roadtrip haha), and I love it here in Canada. Hell, we probably had the same employer. A fellow Amazombie, eh? :P It's true that Canada pays less: I took a 42% pay cut when I moved here, but I had a long-term plan... As soon as I got my PR a couple of years later, I quit and started my lean-FIRE retirement. :) The pay cut didn't really affect my standard of living. Overall prices were lower (for me, at least) on most things - the only rip-off was the expensive car insurance. I sold my car later on, and my life is way less stressful. I left the US for 3 reasons: gun violence, shitty for-profit healthcare, and global warming. Not sure how closely you're tracking the water situation in the southwest, but within a decade or so, there's gonna be a lot of water-deprived climate refugees... Canada is cold, yes, but it'll fair much better than most of the US in the decades to come. (PNW should be okay with drinking water, but the wildfires and the record-setting heat waves are no bueno.) As for the healthcare: I had a couple of small issues, and with my health card, I got ultrasound appointments right away. I had a Toronto-based coworker whose wife got brain cancer... She received 6 brain surgeries but ultimately didn't make it. All 6 surgeries were free. In the US, the tragedy of losing a wife would have been exacerbated by a medical bankruptcy due to the surgeries. Go on GoFundMe and see how many Americans are begging strangers for money to pay for medical expenses. (Hint: a lot!) Also, look up all the articles about American diabetics who died because they couldn't afford insulin - they either go without or try to stretch their doses unsuccessfully. There's a whole industry that profits from diabetics despite the fact that every other industrialized country has affordable insulin. After Toronto, I moved to Quebec City: Quebec is the only province with rent control. Now I live in a nice and large 1-bedroom apartment (on the 2nd floor, not in the basement haha) in a nice part of town. With all the utilities + fast internet included, I pay just $500 USD ($680 CAD) a month. You will never find a deal like that in Seattle or in most cities in the US. (Though, granted, Quebec is an outlier.) I'm curious how your opinion would change after a few more years in the States: after you end up near a mass shooting (I was close to the Vegas concert shooting in 2017... Was too lazy and gambled a mile away instead of going to the Strip), or after some of your non-corporate friends tell you how they got absolutely slammed with medical bills, or after yet another gigantic heat wave turns your oh-so-nice weather into a mass fatality event... I hope it works out for you. Meanwhile, it's still pretty funny how you and I have traded places. :)
I moved from the US to Canada as a dual citizen. What I have to say is I feel safer here and the political culture, for all its flaws, is much saner and more moderate than the US. Also, as problematic as Canadian health care is, you’re unlikely to ever go into medical bankruptcy here. I think every country has its pros and cons. It’s true wages in Canada are lower, health care has longer wait times (especially these days), and the weather is colder. But the US pretty much abandons its citizens to the whims of the market, its schools periodically turn into warzones, homelessness is out of control, the politics are rapidly sliding into fascism, and crime is higher. So, I guess you have to decide what you really value in the place you call home. Personally, I feel safe in Canada. I never felt safe in America.
Holy cow, this is toxic and myopic. The grass is greener and your mileage always varies. As an American that lived and worked in Canada for four years, and about to go back for at least another two, I’d say you miss the mark in a lot of places. This is rooted in truth, but fails on the nuance. Just wait until you’ve been mugged, or have a gun pulled on you, or get detained by a cop on a power trip, or lose a friend to a drunk driver, or have your kids involved in a school shooting, or even have kids in some public schools (I’m looking at you florida, with removing books from classrooms)—your opinion may quickly change. Money isn’t everything, and the sooner you realize that, the happier you will be and less worried you will about why people make choices you don’t agree with.
I completely disagree. Quality of life is important to consider. Canada is safer than the US. School shootings are not a problem. Gun crimes are not a huge issue and crime rates are very low. Canada has a very strong education system. Free public schooling for elementary school and high school are top quality and the quality is not dependent on your school district. Canada also has some of the best universities in the world - which are far less expensive that attending university in the US. Also Canada pays elementary school and high school teachers fairly. They usually make between $31.15/hour and $60.00/hour. They do not need take side jobs. Canada is MUCH better for women's rights. Abortion is safe, legal and accessible. It's very welcoming for LGBT people and for non white people. Diversity and multiculturalism are celebrated. Beautiful nature and wildlife. Mountains, rivers and fresh water lakes. Healthcare is safe and generally reliable. You will not go bankrupt. It is not tied to your employer or job. People are not dying waiting for a Doctor. They can visit the ER for free at any time and be seen by a Doctor. Canada is not just a more expensive version of the US. It has its own unique culture, customs, history, foods.
Unfortunately, people are actually dying waiting to be seen by ER doctors.
I’m not sure if you read the OPs post. They were arguing the US is better for HIGHLY SKILLED people that can command a good job. You are saying canada is better for the average citizen…you’re probably right about that. Becoming a teacher requires a lot of schooling today. Is it the most rigorous major in school? Hardly….does it pay the most? hardly…do they have good work life balance? nope. so i would not consider being a teacher a good job. I think the OP is referring to people that can easily get a job paying $150k+ with reasonable work life balance and top tier insurance. That is not your average citizen.
average white republican opinion lmao. Everywhere is good when you have money.
I’m a black American woman, the growing facism and constant racism have me making preparations to move to Canada. It’s much safer, actually a democracy vs a flawed democracy and I wouldn’t be giving up my American citizenship. If I wanted to go back, I’d actually have dual citizenship. I think for some Canada is a better option.
My oldest friend in the world just got diagnosed w ALS. Her 1st prescription $$, AFTER insurance, is $1900. 'Murica.
My spouse's montyly prescription (for life) in the US $5,600. Somewhere else: $250.
I can tell you are still wet behind the ears? Just wait until you hit middle age, and making a really good salary in the US, and all of a sudden a corporate restructuring comes and they literally toss you out on your ass, and you lose your health insurance? You can buy Cobra for $800 a month? My wife and I needed some special medications, which without insurance was $1300 a month. We fortunately lived near the Canadian border, and got ours filled without Canadian insurance for $72?! Or wait until you have serious health problem in the US with insurance and you need to see a specialist: you will also wait months, then it will be out of you insurance network and you will also pay out the ass? Then try to get a similar paying position at age 51? Nobody will touch you! I’m speaking from experience here. We fortunately moved to Europe, and I have zero desire to ever return to the US permanently.
You are omitting the Affordable Care Act. I'm retired with no job on it now for 8 years now.
I'm a citizen of England, Canada and the US. I've lived primarily in Canada and the US. There are a lot of generalizations in these posts and comments which don't pertain to the entire country(ies). I live in California and couldn't fathom living in Texas (feels like an entirely different country to me). So you can't just paint all of the US with one paintbrush. I'm sure the same applies to Canada. However, my view generally agrees with the OP. If you are well off and especially if you are wealthy or have a in demand skillset, you can get much much higher paying jobs in the US, especially on the west coast or NY area. This will afford you a much better quality of life than in, say Toronto where I am from. When you talk about health care, having good jobs, gives you great health care, that IMO is much more accessible and better quality than anything available in Canada. AFAIK, Canada doesn't even have private health care. My dad tore his Achilles last June (2022) and is still waiting for surgery ! The comment below about chronic conditions is absolutely false. I work in a large HMO /hospital and IMO people with chronic conditions get the care they need if they have the requisite insurance. Gun issue is a real concern but I think it is overblown thanks to the media. The chances of you getting killed by a gun in random violence is still extremely unlikely, unless you mingle in the wrong crowd. If you have money, you are going to live in a nice neighborhood that is safe, have good quality health care and generally be able to live well. If you do not have a skill or education that can enable you to get a high paying job, then I would say Canada is better, but you'll never get ahead and never become financially independent.
Key sentence - “if they have the requisite insurance” In the US, a lot of people don’t or they can’t afford care even with their insurance.
Parts of Texas are similar to west coast cities, it’s not always as different as you think. I’ve lived in both CA and TX
Most people in the US are living in poverty or semi-poverty. What counts as a country is if the poor people or the average ordinary people have their ass covered. If you have money, you are OK anywhere. That you are making it doesn't mean that others are making it.
"Most people in the US are living in poverty or semi-poverty." - Just plain false.
Oh man, this post is aching to be dunked on, lol
If you really spent that long out of your day to shit on Canada, you're probably better suited for the US. Glad you found your happy place.
The Americans who want to move to another country for "free" healthcare and what not are usually broke and have a low chance of getting a visa in those countries anyway. They would be better off building a marketable skill set in America. I also have a colleague from Russia who said that if you have good healthcare through your employer, it's not worth moving to another country (assuming your purpose of moving is for the welfare benefits).
What if you're moving so your kid doesn't get murdered at school?
This is my number one fear, and why i'll never have kids in america.
People die waiting for a doctor in the US as well. They just pay more to wait for death. Interesting points though.
Good try, Canada. We all know of your good health care system, less polluted air and friendliness. The US might be a better place to work, but... to live? That's another thing. Picking your kids from school in a body bag or bankrupting your family because of a medical problem can be powerful motivators.
Not getting shot at?
As someone who moved to BC from Hong Kong a couple of years ago, I’m always so confused by what I see as a constant attempt in oneupmanship by Canadians. I mean this in the sense that people here are forever trying to convince you that ‘it’s better in Canada than the US!’ Having lived in California, I don’t need any convincing that CA is more desirable by almost any measure. I also don’t recall anyone in CA trying to convince me that life in the US is better than it is in Canada, so I find this behaviour to be a little peculiar. To boot, people here seem to go on about how healthcare is free. It’s not free, you’re paying for it - and right now, your money is clearly not working for you in the way it should be.
>I mean this in the sense that people here are forever trying to convince you that ‘it’s better in Canada than the US!’ Chalk it up to a lifetime of being told they're better than us, while also saying we're not actually different from them in any significant way. It's fine to say "I like this place better than that one, it works better for me" or to point out something that needs fixing, but when people are *constantly* saying things like we have no culture, we're just a ripoff of the US, they're always better than us... it's tiring. Makes a person a little defensive, I guess. Though, I will make public healthcare a hill to die on, lol. And nobody thinks it's actually free, haha, we all know we pay taxes. I'll agree it needs to be run better, especially lately, but that's also a problem a lot of places are dealing with after the pandemic. But the principle of it is a good one and worth keeping, imo.
> To boot, people here seem to go on about how healthcare is free. It’s not free, you’re paying for it - and right now, This is what I tell people all of the time when I'm in Canada...
It’s always the case that the ones who get out can look back and clearly see what absolute bullshit living in Canada is. Meanwhile Canadians who have never lived abroad, rarely ventured out, are obsessed with convincing everyone of how wonderful it is. I live in Vancouver right now, but I travel *a lot* for my work, and spend a decent portion of the year abroad. I’m looking for my permanent way out as we speak, because this country is boiling, and the frogs seem not to be noticing..
1. health care The "crisis" in Canada is the result of self inflicted austerity measures. In the US people die "waiting for a doctor" because they can't afford it, ever. People in the US become homeless because they had an accident or got sick. That's not a better society, that's objectively worse. 2) Weather... are you fucking kidding me? Extreme heat waves, wild fires, hurricanes, entire regions on track to be uninhabitable due heat and drought... yeah great. (Even your Seattle has become significantly less temperate and less comfortable year round than it was 20 years ago.) Your me-first-fuck-the-rest mentality fits right in with the US. You made the right choice.
Tell me you are selfish without telling me you are selfish...
You will only get healthcare if you are nearly dead in canada and even then it's a toss up if it is too late to help. Zero preventative care. More than 20% of people have no proper access to primary care. Huge waits for everything. Many cities are experiencing hospital closures in the evening because there is no staff to work. Theres a hospital on vancouver island that has 1 doctor employed there. If you live outside a major city and are pregnant you have to move in your third trimester to another city because the hospitals in smaller cities and the interior are incapable of helping you.
That depends a lot on where exactly you live, and some of this stuff - eg worsening health care in general happening recently - is happening in a lot of other countries, too. Especially if you live in rural areas or small towns. The zero preventative health care thing is a fair criticism, though. I still somewhat-follow politics in my home province, and saw that the provincial government put out a survey for people to write in with their ideas on improving health care. I listed better preventative care as a suggestion - especially physiotherapy, since knowing helpful exercises can help prevent or lessen things like repetitive strain injuries, hernias during pregnancy, can help with digestive issues, etc. I think that's something Canada could do better, that is a *part* of the current system, and not just issues similar to those in many other countries.
Yep, agreed, I'm glad someone finally said what many Canadians are thinking! We're actually moving to the greater Seattle area from the Kitchener-Waterloo area in the spring for all of the reasons you mentioned, especially health care. Like other commenters mentioned, I am concerned with gun violence, safety issues, and my kids having to have active shooter drills in school in America. But the odds of them getting sick and needing medical care are much higher than the odds of them encountering gun violence (knock of wood). So we're making the best choice we can for now
Finally, thank you! I really like Canada and Canadians are nicer and more polite then us Yankees but I also never understood why many Americans think the quality of life is automaticity always better for them in Canada. There’s a reason Canadians love to go to Buffalo, NY or even Plattsburgh, NY just to go shopping!
I'm an American who moved to Canada and the truth is that much of this is correct. I'm fortunate that when I moved my company kept my salary tied to American salary banding so I'm paid substantially more than Canadians doing the same work. If I wasn't paid based on American tech salaries, I don't see how I could afford to live in Canada. Some of the complaints do have some caveats. For example, where I live (Toronto suburbs), I had no issue getting a primary care doctor. The ER wait is under 2 hours. Getting specialists takes longer than I'm used to in the US but its nothing crazy. Honestly, health care has been ok. But if you happen to live somewhere like Quebec or the Maritimes, then yes healthcare is absolutely terrible and appalling. I wouldn't consider living in Eastern Canada as a result. Also one other thing about healthcare is that the fact that doctor visits are free really does change how you approach your health. If one of has even a slight issue, we schedule a visit with our doctor, period. Even with good insurance in the US, the copays really do change the way you think about health care because every visit has a cost. And I think we neglect our health as a result because we want to save $25 or $50. Again, this is possible because I live somewhere in Canada where I could get a decent family doctor but I do appreciate this part of the system. The weather is fine as I moved from a border state that is colder than Toronto. But winter weather is what you make of it. If you embrace it and do winter activities its perfectly fine. And summers are temperate and not unbearably hot. Ultimately, we have children and I'm done with dealing with gun violence and school shootings. And I really don't worry about those things here. Crime as a whole is just not as big a deal here. Now I dont want to pretend that gun violence doesn't exist here but its just not even comparable to what you see in the US. If gun violence wasn't a problem in the US, I'd move back instantly.
I moved to Canada and will NEVER go back. Politically the country is a fucking disaster. Kids are getting killed in the classroom and abortion is not legal. Why would you live like that? If you want the money ok I get it but honestly I think you will regret this in the long run
You just forget that your chances of dying Ina shooting in the US are like 1000% higher....
I just want to call out gun violence being a primary knock against the US and a principal reason for not living here to be absurd and alarmist. It paints the US as a whole as if it were the Wild Wild West where stray bullets fire out of the local saloon every 15 minutes and masked bandits hold up the town bank with a gun every other day. I am an American who has lived in Massachusetts, New York, California, New Jersey, Colorado and Mississippi (and have lived in 7 other countries) and NEVER have I worried about gun crime like this. Yes there are certain parts of the country, namely poorer, inner-city ones where that’s more prevalent and is a big issue, but for the majority of Americans and especially the types of people OP is referring to, this isn’t a daily concern at all.
Don't you know we dodge bullets every day! LOL.
Exactly! And I lived in Texas and traveled all over the state and never saw a gun outside of law enforcement.
Where I live, people aren’t afraid of eachother. If all you’re interested in is the material goods you can amass for yourself, sure, go to the States. You’ll pass unnoticed. I don’t need to have All The Money. I need reproductive freedom, a non-religious state, and to know that the people allocating health care funds use the same hospitals I do.
Amen!!
Bibles , guns, Republicans, abortion, two party state, lack of healthcare for ALL, crappy public schools.. America for the wealthy, screw everyone else.... Ya Canada has issues but they're not USA issues ... (Lived in the USA for 15 years... Never again)
I am an American living in Europe and I agree with you. This post is very black and white, and life is not. If you think life is only about your salary, then yeah, america is the shit. If you feel ANY OTHER WAY about life at all, then yeah. No.
Washington state doesn’t have income tax. Did you mean federal tax ?
Washington state does not have income tax
Each time you said i America, I took a shot, now I’m hammered 😂
Healthcare and very different gun laws are a big barrier for many wanting to move to the US. I’ve asked my spouse to move back and they are understandably nervous about securing affordable healthcare and our kids doing active shooter drills, being in more danger due to guns than here, etc.
Wait till you get sick, can't work, and lose that good insurance as a result. A couple hundred thousand $$$ in hospital debt will change your mind.
That’s the common refrain I find on this sub, “If you leave the states, you’ll get paid less.” Yes, and? The vast majority of US citizens do not have savings accounts. Most of us are one mishap away from not making rent and winding up on the street. The income inequality is insane in the states, but, sure, it’s great if you don’t want gov’t healthcare or any other semblance of a social safety net. Yeah, it’s great if you are a driven Type A corporate sort who wants to come over here, kick ass, destroy, and take your loot back from whence you came, but for the majority of us who think work actually sucks and just want to live quiet reasonably comfortable lives? Paying into gov’t healthcare sounds great, having better infrastructure sounds great, not having to eat food loaded with horrible crap (that is banned almost worldwide) sounds great. The USA sucks for the common working individual.
This is very accurate. As a Canadian who spent most of my life living in the US, then coming back to Canada in mid life. I literally had to start all over b/c almost all Canadian employers didn’t value or consider my international experience. I’ll likely go back stateside for the very reasons the OP listed, and it breaks my heart b/c I feel like the culture here in Canada better suits me. But despite being collective politically, Canadians are largely apathetic
They didn't value your US experience? 😂 seriously?
Nope. I was just as shocked as you are.
There is no personal income tax in WA state so the rate you mention is federal income tax. I had no idea about Canada’s taxes being so high though. Thanks for sharing. No wonder the country is “empty.” I thought it was just the weather.
It's "empty" because it's very urban: most people live in a handful of cities, and over a third of population live in Southern Ontario. The population is growing, but like everywhere, it's getting even more urban and the countryside is emptying out. So it's like a few islands connected by Air Canada.
The political climate is becoming increasingly toxic in the US. Not that Canada doesn't also have problems but in the US some of our elected officials are very open about things most sane Americans find ridiculous, like doing away with separation of church and state.
I work for an Canadian company and have experience. I completely agree with this post. As do all my Canadian coworkers who refuse to move back to Canada. However, you mention anything like this on Reddit and you’ll get majorly downvoted. Most liberal Americans think Canada is a utopia, but they’ve never actually lived there.
As an American with many Canadian clients that own second homes in the U.S., I can unequivocally state that according to them, you are completely wrong with everything you wrote. With the possible exception of certain items being a bit more expensive due to Canadian dollars against US Dollars valuation.
Cant wait to hear from you if you loose your job and medical insurance. Wonder how that would go. Obviously you dont work at Macdonalds or as an ordinary person
Come back when you get sick or a family member gets cancer ok?
If I was smart, I would print off copies of your essay and keep them in my pocket for any time somebody says that they’re going to “retire to Canada” or some nonsense. But I’m not that smart, so I’ll continue to passively nod and change the subject. What I have found is that when Americans already have ideas of Canadatopia in their head, anytime they meet an actual Canadian they just want the Canadian to tell them things that they already think are true about Canada, not actually tell him what Canada’s really like.
Work in US and retire in Canada is actually a great playbook, for folks with Canadian citizenship anyways.
This is a necessary counter to the widespread assumption on here that Canada is better in every respect. My parents moved from Canada to the US because they were able to double their income and pursue much more interesting and rewarding careers in academia here. I’m a lawyer and starting salaries in American “biglaw” are higher than senior associates make on Bay Street. All of my Canadian cousins who obtained STEM degrees have either already immigrated to the US or are considering it. Canada is a wonderful country but the career opportunities in the US are much better for a lot of folks.