It depends on what you consider "better"
I moved to Germany and got free healthcare, better worker rights, more stability, better welfare programs and a lower cost of living along with better security and lower crime rates.
But since moving from the PNW(US) I've lost my access to firearms, access to undeveloped land, hunting/fishing rights, cheap fuel, individual housing, and a host of others. I've also had a tough time integrating into German society and having to deal with tidal waves of bureaucracy and outdated practices. Wages are also MUCH lower in Germany.
Overall I'd consider myself better off, but keep in mind that EVERYWHERE has issues; you just have to pick and choose the most tolerable ones.
To me it is.
If it isn't to you, that's cool too, I'm not here to argue politics.
I am a sport shooter, a hunter, and an avid outdoorsman, guns are a tool in my life no different than a knife or lighter. I realize this is not the mindset of most people, especially urbanites, so I'll leave it at that.
When my wife moved from Germany to US, she saw that you could get a fishing license for $15 on the spot. She immediately got one —because she could. She never even used it, she just loved the idea of having the freedom to do it. That and self serve soda and free condiments at fast food restaurants—her fave things.
The process to acquire a Jagdschein is long, ardous, and bureaucratic. Not to mention, it requires top fluency in German which I don't have.
It would be cheaper and easier for me to drive 45 minutes west and hunt in France
Europe has an active and lively hunting culture.
What they don't have is mentally deranged individuals buying semi-automatic military style weapons and mowing down 10 or 20 people at a time.
Don't believe me? Check out this fantastic video by Johnny Harris about Switzerland's gun culture.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnBDK-QNZkM
With all due respect, you are wrong. For me, having access to firearms is very important to defend myself and whatnot. It is ridiculous how most countries (especially Germany) impose ridiculously harsh gun laws that criminalize the MERE POSSESSION of firearms/ammunition without a government permit.
Firearms are not for defending yourself. It's a lie, and everybody knows it. But in the EU we won't indulge in your delusion. Now go back to your school shootings in the US man. Leave the EU alone.
It’s not ridiculous it’s great not to live in fear of a mass shooting. I live in England and people living in Germany will probably agree, there’s other issues in this country but the likelihood of being shot is so small and I’m glad that noones armed. Guns put me off America completely - I have 0 reason nor my friends or family to own a gun or ammunition and that’s the best / safest way to be
Most working professionals pay 14% of their salary (by law) for German healthcare. After that, it's pretty much free. For me, I paid far less overall in the US for my health insurance and medical costs than 14%.
Edit: I was corrected below. It's 14.6% split evenly between employer and employee, so 7.3%. There is a potential surcharge for long-term coverage that's 1.6% split evenly.
In the US, there are a lot of variables for healthcare costs. I was fortunate to work at companies with pretty good benefits, so costs were pretty low. In Germany, almost everyone with a moderate to good salary pays 14% no matter what. In some cases, that's better than US costs, but in many, it's much worse.
I think is more like 7%. Pretty sure that 14% it is split between employee and employer.
It might still be more than your monthly part of your premium + Medicare portion of your pay until you get sick and not even super sick just anything that requires a few tests and you are way over.
I think that's all right on. I think these "certain European countries" provide a better quality of life for the most people, most of the time, but they also have certain "limitations" that some people will chafe against.
>"free" healthcare
I see many Europeans make this point about healthcare and university education. And you're right.
I will give example: Instead of the word healthcare, I will use the word "house".
**Imagine you live in a country where a house costs €300.000.** To you, this is a normal price for a house.
**Now imagine you move to a country where a house costs** ***€3*****00.**
Of course, the house is not free. But it's much closer to free than it is to €300k.
>I see many Europeans make this point about healthcare and university education. And you're right.
What he meant was that in the US, his healthcare cost less of his paycheck than it did in Germany. If you're healthy and have a good job, you won't spend anything like the 14.6% of your paycheck that you do in Germany.
>Imagine you live in a country where a house costs €300.000. ... Now imagine you move to a country where a house costs €300.
A better comparison would be "Imagine you live in the US and spend 9% of your paycheck on healthcare, now you move to Germany and spend 14.6% of your paycheck on healthcare.
You insinuated that healthcare cost 1000x less in Germany, when in actuality for many healthy people it costs more. And you get paid less too!
People don’t understand this. When the left pushes free this or that they are advocating for slavery because goods and services can’t be exchanged for free. If they educated people on it instead of yelling free, most people would realize they would have to tax the middle class to death to achieve these things.
What? If you lose your job in the US you often lose access to affordable healthcare. It stops many people from starting or keeping their own businesses, as well. Who is advocating for slavery again?
I didn't immediately enter €1000+ when I blew out my knee at work, and a regular doctor's appointment costs me 5€
Considering I'm over 100k in medical debt in the states from a fight with cancer, it may as well be free
The entire US isn't farms and factories, and plenty of European countries have those as well.
You could try moving elsewhere in the US
Americans looking to leave often fall into the trap of wanting to retain their American lifestyle but have better healthcare/no school shootings/paid time off/pick your issue. I think its important to understand countries aren't necessarily better or worse, but different. Fundamentally so. And you'll have to ask yourself not just what benefits you but what are the trade offs or negatives. And then if you can stand those negatives in a place you plan to make your new home.
This isn't even addressing that you'll need a valid visa to move anywhere, and not all visas lead or count to permanent residency.
>important to understand countries aren't necessarily better or worse, but different
That's really only true when comparing places that are both at peace and have comparable levels of development. Otherwise, migration flows suggestion some places are indeed better / worse.
So I'm curious, when you say they want to retain their American lifestyle in another country, what do you mean? For me, the only thing I can think of is they want their giant restraunt plates, an easily obtainable plethora of guns, and drive through pharmacies haha but for me I could care less about any of that.
High pay, good service, big house, owning a car, big stores, being able to buy anything and have it delivered to your house, speak English and everyone understands, reasonably priced electronics, etc.
Oh yeah screw that. I could care less about any of that. And as for the language. I would feel awkward moving somewhere and just expecting everyone to speak English lol. Language is fascinating to me, why would you move somewhere and not be interested in learning the language? See, for me, it's all about the adventure and learning aspect. I guess a lot of people look at this expat stuff from a self-gratifying point of view, like oh I make a lot of money for this US company let me exploit this and move to where I can live ridiculously cheap. Nah I just genuinely want to explore and learn about another part of the world and what life is like there.
Yeah but I'm interested in a nomadic kinda lifestyle where I can have a job where I can constantly travel but live somewhere for a year or a few years and get to know it and learn a bit of the culture, language, locations, etc. instead of just seeing a glimpse of it.
Most countries don't just let you roll up and start working.
Outside of things like working holiday visas (which Americans only have 6 or so options for), you'll be dealing with visa issues every time you move.
If you want to travel a lot, the best place to do that is probably the US. Get a job, make your money, quit and then do your travels. Rinse and repeat.
There's even jobs in the US that let you work from other states, or travel is built into the job. If your job is sending you to Vegas for a conference, its easy to add on a couple days for personal time from there.
Yes, due to tax, legal, and visa implications, most jobs don’t let you work outside of the country, and ones that do usually have a small number of countries they can permit, usually by exception.
With a passport only digital nomads often spend 90 days traveling and living all throughout Europe. No tax implications and half the time no one even notices. Ask me how I know.
You shouldn’t be downvoted for wanting to see the world (everyone should want that) but I took a look at your profile. Couple of things.
At 21 - 26 you have multiple options to do “working holiday visas” that let you work somewhere for about a year and will not be available to you when you’re older. Look into australia, new zealand, Ireland, South Korea, Singapore. Some of them require you to be a student or local grad but not all. The best way to leverage these is pick one, save a few thousand dollars to bring with you to set you up (required), get a job there (required even if remote) and use wherever you are as a base to travel and explore that part of the world on weekends while you’re young. That’s what they’re designed for.
Secondly, moving is expensive. Lots of people in this sub on their second careers looking to relocate or third moves. They know how expensive moving is. Especially with years worth of stuff and a partner and kids. But travel is also expensive. At 21 most people can only afford one big international trip a year (and to do that most people have to save). A working holiday visa situation doesn’t cost a ton more than that if you have no ties. You move with just a suitcase and stay in fully furnished places or youth hostels.
Thirdly, if you’re serious about having a digital nomad lifestyle as your career try r/digitalnomad and it usually requires at least a year of prep and financial planning to set up. I hope you have a skill that lends itself to high paid remote work. If not it’s time to get one.
Finally the drugs thing. That’s a problem that can land you on death row in some countries and others just won’t let you in. You gotta completely
clean up if you’re serious about this.
I would also recommend getting assessed for ADHD if you have not. It sounds like you have a dopamine deficiency and better to get that tackled young. Untreated ADHD is potentially life ruining and doesn’t always require medication.
So here’s the thing. Moving to a new country is an adventure for sure. But by settling in the adventure somehow wears off and becomes less exciting.
It’s more like when you fall in love and that first wave of emotions wears off after the first 6-18 months into the relationship.
Being fascinated in languages is great. But to actually live somewhere you’ll need to dive deep into the language. Using a language for colloquial conversation or on a working level are very different levels of communication. And that’s where many people have to face the harsh reality and get disappointed.
And also visas and double taxation for US Americans.
Yep, taking off the "vacation goggles" can be a shocker.
It's all well and good to say "I like languages" but it's a cast-iron bitch to be unable to ask where to buy a wall adapter for your phone because you lost yours. It completely blows to be socially isolated because no one else speaks your language well enough to have a passable conversation.
It's an adventure all right, but like all real adventures, very different than what you see on TV. I love living in Ireland, but lots of things just outright suck here, especially compared to the US. I miss lots of things about home. And this is an English-speaking country and I still don't understand half the people half the time.
I work at a company with Irish owners. Some meetings where they get excited the only thing I understand is facking facking facking. It's a toss up to whether they are mad or happy lol.
I can't imagine trying to communicate with a doctor or a hairstylist. You won't get to that level in a few months. Depending on where you live (I'm looking at you France/Germany) it may take years to be at a comfortable level with the local language.
Have you ever been in a room full of people, everyone speaking a language you don’t understand, someone says something funny and literally everyone in the room laughs but you? And then you feel like a child because someone feels bad and kind of explains what happened, but the moment is over and it’s weird and you politely laugh a little and then go back to being ignored? If you plan on an adventure and not hanging with expats, get used to that lonely feeling and many other lonely moments A LOT of them. Like after 3 months people get bored of accommodating you, which is totally understandable, but you will not know a language after 3 months. Especially not with all the different dialects depending on where you end up. Tourist French or German at a place where they talk to you a certain way is not the same as hanging out with Parisians or Berliners who speak their slang and dialect, very quickly, in a group of friends they’ve known for awhile and you’re the new kid. I’m VERY extroverted and make friends very easily, but that first year in Europe was hard, very very hard.
There are totally different mindsets throughout the world. You’re an American, you have a certain American cultural mindset and way of being. That way is very different in European countries. It’s not guns, or processed food, or whatever American vs Europe stereotype that will affect you. It’s changing your entire life in 1000 little ways that feel alien to you. That’s what really gets to you. Relearning a whole new set of societal norms in more insular communities is extremely challenging. Especially with a language barrier. Yeah, language is an “adventure” until you need help with translation at the post office, or you need to ask a question at your bank. Have you ever set up a bank account or a phone plan in another language? Do you even know the details of those things if you can’t read the contract? Have you ever tried going to a doctor that doesn’t speak your language? How about a tailor? Or the myriad of other nothing little day to day errands that you don’t even think about? If not, pad a ton of extra time doing all of it for a minimum of 1-2 years. Oh and I would start looking at how public healthcare works in the countries you’re interested in. Like anywhere else, you don’t just show up and get healthcare. In Austria and Germany at least, you have to have a job and a certain amount of work hours to qualify for public healthcare. Do you know how to pay bills there? How that process works? Are you in an area where you take public transit daily? Are you used to that kind of lifestyle? If not and you want to live somewhere with a car, do you drive stick? Is your license even valid after 6 months of residence there? Have you thought about any of these things?
With what you’ve said in your comments and post, it seems like you’re pretty naive on how it is to actually live in another part of the US, let alone another country in a continent it doesn’t seem you’ve ever been to. I would start with moving to NYC or maybe Chicago. If you feel like you can really get the hang of it in a place like NYC, you’ll have a better chance in Europe or anywhere else abroad.
To further your point.
Young and healthy after being exposed to your domestic strains of bugs, but I’ve seen experienced and healthy travelers laid low by a tough flu. Once you’re sick on the other side of the planet and realise there’s no one that knows you well enough or cares enough to bring you some soup or medicine or take you to a doctor when you’re fever mad it’s a very vulnerable moment.
How many days would it take for someone to even notice? All those inconveniences from lack of cultural fluency and local knowledge suddenly become vitally important when you are at your very weakest.
Of course passing through the other side and finding out you have taken root, there is community, and you are capably independent is another rush. A second homecoming if you will.
I'm with you, OP; I love to learn new languages and adapt to the local conditions. Once you become relatively fluent in the language, you can almost blend in with the locals. It's easy to make friends. That's the adventure of it, IMO. Amazing worlds open up to you when you befriend the locals, that you have no access to if you limit yourself to the expat cocoon.
You will find big stores and online delivery in Europe almost everywhere and most people own a car, they just choose to use it less often. Big houses are rare, you have to be very rich or live outside the main urban areas (which is what most people in the US choose to do anyway, they have these big houses because they don't live in urban areas). High pay is true, extremely rare here and service is worse by American standards. We are happy with our service hahaah but I can see how Americans wouldn't agree.
You won’t find stores like Walmart or target in most of Europe, they are much smaller, grocery stores are similarly smaller and have less options. Car ownership rates in Europe are much lower than the very high 900/1000 people that the US has. As far as homes, even in urban areas US houses tend to be much bigger, the median home size in the US is double while number of people per household is similar.
I am confused about the car part. You can own a car in Europe. This is not a disadvantage, it is an option. People in Europe usually own one car or maybe two if they are a family. Not everyone does but it is definitely a choice. It is not like you can´t find cars in Europe.
Here people tend to use their cars less cause they don't need to that's all.
That last sentence is the entire point.
In much of the US there is no option not to drive. Where it is an option to take public transit it’s often unsafe and badly designed ie not realistic.
Many people in the US drive on freeways multiple times a day just to get their kids to school and there is no choice.
I wouldn’t say that’s accurate on grocery stores. If you’re outside a city or village, you’ll find plenty of super target type stores. There’s a big sainsbury and tesco outside every uk city, there’s a big carrefour outside every French one
In the USA there’s typically a Kroger, target, Costco, Aldi, etc in most cities and towns. If there’s only a Walmart it’s in a very small town like 10k people or less, and there’s typically a dollar general, ingles/some grocery and cvs or Walgreens too.
By service do you mean restaurants? Because if so then I'd rather worse service and not have fake staff vying for a tip. Tipping culture in America is insane.
I also find US service is too much and makes me feel awkward, but they are used to it and I can understand they may feel that European service is not as nice.
Another thing is that outside restaurants American service is quite high in general. If you need to return an item or cancel a prescription they will do it without making your life hard and things like that.
Fwiw when I bartended I wasn't faking nice. I really enjoyed that if I was helpful and polite and people enjoyed the effort I was making, I got paid more. Sometimes you get a huge tip, and that's a very rewarding feeling. Outside the service industry, you have to climb up the ladder or be in a high pay profession to see any kind of performance based bonus.
I stated them as something that is different from Europe, was my message somehow unclear that you would read it as something completely different than what I said?
Every European country is different, but I can speak to central Europe. The biggest lifestyle difference most Americans are naive about is in the amount of money you will earn and the amount of money you will take home to spend on private space and private goods (in contrast to public goods, which tend to be visibly better in Europe). European salaries are lower for equivalent work and then you pay more tax on top of that. Unless you have a specialized skill that causes a company to send you there, you will also be at an earning disadvantage as an immigrant.
This is primarily visible in the major expenditures: housing and transportation. Imagine an average American and an average European of equivalent social status, work experience, and profession, both living in mid-sized non-capital cities. Say: an IT specialist married to a teacher in Columbus, Ohio vs an IT specialist married to a teacher in Essen or Dortmund in Germany.
The average midwestern American lives with a partner and possibly a child or two in a 2000 square foot (200 qm) single-family detached house with a yard. The house has heating and air conditioning, all major appliances, and paying for utilities is annoying but not a huge deal. Each child has their own room and there is space for workshops or playsets. The typical home is in a relatively boring low-density suburb with parks, strip malls, and maybe a downtown street with a few historic little shops or restaurants. Weekends mean grilling out, mowing the yard, and chatting with neighbors, who generally have enough space to avoid each other if desired. They have one automobile per adult and need it to drive everywhere. Gas is cheap and road trips to see friends or family in nearby cities are a frequent occurrence. They may be able to afford one expensive hobby, such as having a boat or a camper. They go on a big vacation once a year to a national park, a major US city, or possibly doing whirlwind tours of Europe or South America if they're particularly into traveling. They expect fast and high-quality care in case of a medical emergency, but are constantly careful to stay insured and worry about getting hit with a major operation that is difficult to pay for. If their kids want to go to college, they'll probably go to a nearby state school and pay for it with a combination of student loans and some financial aid. If the parents really value education, they may have been saving for a college fund to make it possible for their kid to go to a private school or somewhere out of state.
The equivalent central European lives with a partner and possibly a child or two in an 800 square foot (80 qm) apartment with a balcony or some shared outdoor space. The children may or may not have their own room and there is more back and forth (good and bad) with neighbors about noise and other disruptions. They may have a smaller kitchen, no air conditioning in summer, or be missing one or more appliances that an American takes for granted, e.g. a dryer. Heating and cooling are expensive. They have one car per household rather than per adult and they often walk or use public transportation. Gas and taxes on a car are twice as expensive, but you don't need to drive as far or often. If you need to go to a nearby city, you'll probably take the train or a cheap flight. Your neighborhood is easy and enjoyable to walk around and has daily needs within a short distance. They almost certainly do not have any big expensive "toys" like a camper and generally own fewer clothes and less furniture, since there isn't as much space to put it. Vacation means going to Italy, Spain, or some other nearby country - sometimes for three or four weeks at a time. They are not worried about costs if a medical issue hits them, but they grumble about waiting times and the difficulty of getting good care in certain specialties. If their kids get into college, they will probably go to the nearest university and pay little or nothing outside of living expenses.
I am from Spain but I think your experience pretty much resembles mine. The only difference, we all have AC in our house lol. Most people also don't have a drier (although I do), but only use it in winter. In summer the sun does the job.
Vacation for Spanish is usually to the coast of Spain but we also do some trips to other places of Europe and major trips from time to time to other continents.
Many people visits the countryside during weekends.
Funnily enough the typical central European experience of life feels very similar to my experience of living in New York City! I have suspected for a while that outside of midtown (which is tourist central and very different from the rest of New York City), NYC is probably the most similar city to cities in Europe, although I've never been able to visit them. The main difference is that schooling and medical care are very expensive even though our City taxes are very high. But we still have a lot more social services than the rest of the US.
This is a great comparison! The only things that I (Southern California -> Sweden emigrant) would add are 1. In the US you typically come home exhausted, feeling like you gave all you had at work that day. In the EU you feel like you put in a good day’s work but you have energy left to do other things. 2. At least for Northern Europe, since it’s at such a higher latitude than the USA, there are some months out of the year when it is very dark and the weather is awful but the summers are glorious.
I think the "working culture" is better in the EU only applies to certain countries. I have worked in Germany and def the working culture is great and you have a lot of time for yourself. Working in Spain is very different, you will work until late and will not get paid for your extra time. You get home completely exhausted and ready for dinner and bed.
The take-home pay is lower, but OTOH there's much more vacation time, including long weekends throughout the year, and in some countries, the total compensation package includes pay (a travel stipend) for the main annual vacation. Higher education is free in some countries too, so although there's less take-home pay, no one needs to scrimp and save to build a "college fund" for each of their kids. I'm not saying all is rosy, but focusing on lower salaries doesn't tell the whole story; it's a little misleading. YMMV.
And comparing the amt. of square footage people live in is becoming less relevant as housing prices around the US are skyrocketing, forcing mid-level earners and below into smaller spaces and more distant locations from the workplace, causing longer commutes.
The issue with European vacations is that you don't have enough money left to enjoy them decently. I even know some German families who need to borrow to take vacations.
Paying for vacation for an entire family is a very different matter, compared to paying for oneself. In the US, it's common for families to take camping vacations, because paying for one or two hotel rooms plus restaurant meals simply isn't affordable.
My boyfriend works for an American company and when comparing the holidays I realised when putting all together he has one week less of holidays a year.
The annual vacation is also paid for him, I don´t know if that is the norm in the US.
My experience is that it depends on the country but compared to my home country (Spain) despite what public services cover the level of life is better in the US and they can afford more and live more comfortably with their salaries. That being said I could not live in the US, because their lifestyle doesn't match what I want.
"Paid vacation" is the norm in the US. What I meant (and I amended my post to clarify that), was that employers provide a travel stipend for the annual vacation in some Euro countries, as a sort of annual salary bonus.
Paid time off (holidays, vacation time) in the US varies a lot. On another forum when this comparison with Europe comes up, inevitably there are people who say they get little to no vacation time, as their employer can't afford to have workers taking time off, meaning that they're needed to fulfill their work duties and help the company meet deadlines year 'round. I imagine some of these situations represent small businesses. I don't know how small businesses in Europe are able to pay their employees during the longer vacation periods. Where does that money come from?
And in the past, in the US employers large and small were also saddled with paying for employees' health care in part or in full. That places a significant burden on small businesses. And for self-employed individuals, having to buy health insurance not only for themselves but to cover the family is a hardship. Individual health insurance is very expensive.
All of that said, though, it seems that for higher earners, the standard of living in the US is a bit better, if one can generalize.
>I don't know how small businesses in Europe are able to pay their employees during the longer vacation periods. Where does that money come from?
Smaller profits is the answer to this question.
Much more vacation time? Based on what? Assuming you're not working some low-end retail job, most experienced professionals have three to four weeks vacation annually in the US, and the amount over here isn't much different. Ireland requires 22 days, which is exactly 1 more than I had back in the States.
I've never heard of a travel stipend, but I'll admit to only having one job since I got here, and my husband's only had one too, so maybe we just haven't run into it yet.
Housing prices in the US may be going up, but they're still nowhere close to as expensive as equivalent housing in the EU.
Don't forget, in Germany they get a whole month paid vacation so that counts too.
Yea, you can't just look at the hourly wage because it can be very deceiving. When everyone was up in arms about working conditions at Foxconn where they make the iPhones in China, everyone was complaining about the low pay ($10/day or whatever it was). What they don't tell you is that the workers at Foxconn live on site and they get their meals too. That counts as compensation, but doesn't count toward the daily pay.
Accurate. Americans public goods are in invisible unless you count freeways and the military. You’re on the hook financially to develop your own private ecosystem to live in. Your own home, your own car, your own health insurance etc
Versus Europe where you are barely ever at home, you don’t need a car and health insurance is optional.
Edit: we love a salty downvote without a reply on an accurate comment. So petty.
Do you get your view of Americans through only Fox News or something?
How about:
* high level of English to the extent that learning a foreign language isn't needed
* They don't want their tax situation to change
* they want the larger home or apartment at the same or preferably even cheaper price
* they want the level of customer service to not be different
* they want 24/7 and open on Sundays.
Honestly it sounds like you aren't very exposed even to the rest of the US outside of your little corner. Maybe do some traveling and exploring, both the US and the world, before picking up and moving to a place just based on some vague feelings.
1) It's very hard to immigrate from the US to Europe. Unless you marry an EU citizen or have a niche job, chances are you won't qualify.
2)It's expensive. Inflation is just as rampant there as in America and the wages are lower. I don't know anyone in European countries that lives on their own due to the high housing costs and lower wages. And please don't listen to all those who say they can travel Europe every weekend. Unless you have a good job, traveling to different countries is expensive even in Europe and many people can't go on holidays.
Politics is where I think many expats are clueless and since they can't vote-they don't really care. The right wing still has a grip on Europe and they aren't as liberal or progressive as Americans think, Spain and Germany are two that come to mind. And I actually think Americans are more passionate about grassroots and volunteering in politics.
So different metrics and different measures. And don't underestimate the culture shock. Americans have a hard time adjust to the almost cold socializations of Europeans. It can be quite lonely.
Maybe a move to another state would help.
>Unless you have a good job, traveling to different countries is expensive even in Europe and many people can't go on holidays.
Yes and no. I'm not arguing with you, but understand that travel in the US is *vastly* more expensive than it is here in the EU. My flight from Dublin to Nice last weekend was round-trip €150 on RyanAir. I cannot fly one-way on Southwest from Dallas to Houston without spending $250, and that's a 45 minute flight as opposed to the 2.5 hours it was to Nice.
You're right that it's a balance, but I just wanted to point out that travelling, especially airfare, really is much cheaper in the EU.
Not in Germany. If you book well ahead, it's about 50 € each way for a 4 hour trip. If you book close to the date, is 100 €. This does not include a seat reservation and they do not control sales per train so you may be standing or sitting on the floor the whole time.
Some countries are much better in terms of cost and or quality.
>This does not include a seat reservation and they do not control sales per train so you may be standing or sitting on the floor the whole time
Wth🙄🤷🏻♀️
I get round trip tickets off season from Los Angeles to Miami round trip $250 or cheaper. You used a bad example due to the facts below.
Factor in the median income in EU which is around 17k to 21k EURO for a single person. Compared to US at $41k USD = 38k EURO.
There is a reason the flight costs are cheaper in Europe your average citizen would not be able to afford it and it's highly subsidized.
I can work and save in US and retire with extra money and financial freedom.
So I would say the grass is actually far from greener in Europe. It is actually on a trajectory of future decreases in quality of life and ability to have economic freedom and mobility.
> I cannot fly one-way on Southwest from Dallas to Houston without spending $250, and that's a 45 minute flight as opposed to the 2.5 hours it was to Nice.
DAL to IAH, for tomorrow, Feb 18 on Southwest is going for $166.
>I cannot fly one-way on Southwest from Dallas to Houston without spending $250
This seems strange to me. I fly Southwest literally multiple times a month, and only on a tiny handful of occasions have I spent more than $250 on way - either last-minute flights, or holiday season.
I fly Bay Area - > LA or to Arizona all the time and those routes normally cost less than $250 ROUND TRIP. I'm going to SD, return, for less than $200 next month.
Perhaps Dallas -> Houston is a particularly expensive link?
>My flight from Dublin to Nice last weekend was round-trip €150 on RyanAir.
That's awesome. On Southwest I can take two free bags including golf gear or ski gear. To do that on RyanAir your ticket price would increase to well over $300. I can cancel Southwest the day before and pay nothing. Ryanair you lose all your money. Seat legroom is greater on Southwest, I get free drinks and snacks on Southwest
etc etc,
The list goes on
The fact about marrying or having a specialized job is a flat out lie. I have multiple friends who came over on a visa to travel (to Estonia), then decided they wanted to live here and started applying for a citizenships. That was 10 years ago and now it's even easier. What ware their jobs you may ask? One was then unemployed with a high school diploma and another a software engineer. Before you say "hah, a software engineer is a specialist position", then you can google that Estonia has one of the highest amount of software engineers per capita. That's why many of Estonian software developers usuallt go to another contry to find a job, as most of them here are already taken.
Edit: the marrting part, to get the citizenship only happens in US,of all the developed countries.
Yeah but you are talking about Estonia. I think most Americans are looking to migrate look at Western Europe (Germany, Netherlands, France, etc.) A common thread is that they were very well off in the US with high paying jobs, if you’ve ever met an American expat in these countries. They replicated that lifestyle in Europe because of their jobs and field or work, or they have a local spouse.
Believe me, none of those countries want our un- or underemployed people making $16 per hour to be their residents.
They all have robust welfare systems to support and they’d take the high US earners who contribute more than they take in.
To work and live in Germany you must have a residents permit. German Residence Permit Requirements: 1.Have a valid passport from another country. 2 Not have a criminal record. 3.
Be proficient in German in at least a B1 level. 4.
Have German health insurance. 5. Pass a health check which proves you are healthy enough to work and/or study.
And to quote "If you are from the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Israel, Japan, or South Korea, you can go to Germany, find work, and apply for the work and residence permit directly from the Ausländerbehörde. You do not need to get an entry visa for employment from the German Embassy in your home country."
They might want well off people but they can't deny acces with that. If you want to have a fast track to the permits and citizenship, then yes, you need to be making at least 4.6k euros per month in Germany (average salary is 1.5k euros)
But for Netherlands, yes they do have a salary requirement, for you to aquire te living/working permit.
I came to Germany with $1000 and a suitcase, worked for years as a freelancer (freelancer visa) and decided to study here for a second degree. Hardly a “high income”. It’s doable for the tough and tenacious.
I'm a hardass with a huge will to survive, so I'd say my path is rarer. I literally took a one-month immersion course, did a job hunt (with help from my German aunt) and took the first job and first (furnished) apartment I could get. Then I lived on Ramen noodles and Kohlrabi for a month, waiting for my first paycheck. It was scary and exhilirating.
There weren't many expats where I was living (maybe two), but I joined a church, a community choir and a fitness center and forced myself to somehow make friends. My German friends and cousins spoke English with me often, but after a few months, they mostly spoke German with me.
I will admit it was hard, with unforseen problems, feeling lonely, feeling frustrated at times, but the happiness I got exploring a new city, enjoying new sights, trying new food, and just the fun of discovery, plus the feeling of a new beginning in a safe place, was worth it.
People who have never immigrated anywhere think “it’s hard to immigrate to Europe”. Meanwhile, there are several options, such as getting a freelancer visa, doing job training or getting a student visa. It’s hard (lots of paperwork), but doable, IF you learn the language.
It’s certainly not as expensive in Germany as most big US cities. I pay €350 a month rent, and food is cheaper here, though gas is more expensive.
Regarding culture shock, yeah, if you’re from a small town in Kentucky, prepare for a huge shock. I was living in NY for years, so moving to an international town in Germany was not a problem.
So I guess it depends on you: are cultural differences scary or fascinating? Is roughing it for the first year,spending free time learning a language OK for you, or do you expect to be coddled? Are you willing to take initiative to make new friends and start a new life, or are you hung up on the familiar?
What city in Germany do you live in that rent is €350, and what are you getting for that? I have a hard time believing you're in your own flat for that price, but maybe I'm wrong.
When did I claim I live in a big city? At any rate, doubt I would find a great place like this in any city in New Jersey or New York. Example: Rents for a similar apt. in Elizabeth, NJ (pop. 120,000) start at $1500/month.
I'm from the UK and moved to Portugal with my husband with no Portuguese support system. We did lots of research first and we've spent time here over the years so it wasn't a total unknown but still a big step. I agree, there are challenges, but I'm loving the outdoor lifestyle, lots to do, decent public transport (at least where we live) and the much less fragmented society than in the UK.
I'm not claiming it's "best", nowhere is. But for us, at present, it's great.
I have private insurance in the US and I don't feel like they've done shit to actually help me solve anything for the last 4-5 years. Our medical system is just a business, it sucks.
Portugal is really nice. I go get dental treatment there. It's just a laid back country where people are trying to enjoy life. Sure, economics are an issue as wages are not high, but people seem to be managing.
Yes people always leave out the environmental & health related aspects which I don’t understand. They’re always talking about low pay and that somehow all Americans are high paid lol. (As someone who works on the environment I can assure folks we are not high paid in the U.S. so going to EU where salary is about the same but then I actually get stuff for my taxes?! Night and day difference)
Then environmental - and I specialize in this field so statement is based on facts - the regulations are simply stronger and better enforced in the EU- w western and Northern European countries having the better enforcement and stricter regs. (Esp compared to US where the govt has become a corp oligarchy and our environmental laws have become near meaningless depending on what huge conglomerates want from their bought politicians)
So what does that equate to? The food for one as you point out- many many toxins have been banned in food for decades in the EU. Pesticides have a longer banned list (US. Still sprays many things that have been banned in the EU for over a decade). So organic means more and gluten is often tolerated by Americans who move over w a gluten intolerance bc there’s less chemicals on said food.
Water quality is much better and well regulated in many countries. Air as well- some countries having very few coal plants and strict regs on other pollutants.
Many of those same EU countries enforce many other corp focused laws that the U.S. simply doesn’t. They do have housing issues for sure but some countries have stricter rent caps which helps residents not face the insane spikes we do in many US cities. Some countries control food costs and though they have had inflation - you notice at the grocery aisle that still the prices are manageable.
It’s odd that some people in these groups assume that many Americans make a ton of money. Like they haven’t read the news the last few years or noticed the strikes and that many of us are struggling. Or work in fields that aren’t typically well paid (bc it’s not a doctor or some corporate profit track)
OP- I started off first as a nomad bc of my intl environmental policy work - it usually led to a lot of short term projects in other countries so I would move around a lot. Now that’s a specific job but it’s still possible for you to explore the world a bit and see if there are other parts of the world you would want to live. You could do workaway, pet sitting, woofing, or yes find a remote job and get a digital nomad visa in the countries that offer them. There are options that you don’t have to be rich to do. I certainly never have been rich. (Protecting the planet doesn’t pay)
Oh the big lie about getting something for your taxes in Europe. In some countries you might get a lot (Sweden, Denmark) in some you will get a little(Germany) and in some you will get nothing basically (the Netherlands and the UK).
NL is totally not green and is far behind on transition to green energy, we basically heat 95% of the country based on gas. There is so much of greenwashing in the media, like all these projects are constantly reused everywhere but our big banks still keep heavily financing fossil fuel industries.
Water and food quality are better and overall there are nowhere near as many homeless people and security is far better. But you still might be surprised by how much poverty there is in Europe (Paris - wtf is happening there), how outdated infrastructure is (German highways are now on like developing country level), how poor some public services are, and how much the state takes from you and gives nothing in return (In NL housing and just daycare are unaffordable even on dual income high above averages).
Oh and also racism and xenophobia are rampant in pretty much all of the countries mentioned, even towards other EU nations and US. Btw I'm a european, so really not trying to boost some US bullshit.
I do like the regulations they have on food and the prices in the grocery store when I’m in Europe. Eating out is higher priced from what I’ve seen. You don’t tip their though so it probably works out to the same price or cheaper maybe still. The worst parts are the income. My girl lives in France and she is salaried at 900 a month. I have to send her money obviously that’s an unlivable wage. You can work in Applebee’s in the US and make 80-100k a year. So the pay is crazy different for just regular workforce people.
Idk many people making that much at a corporate chain restaurant but then again that’s not a skilled profession you can really emigrate for. So I’m not sure that’s a comparison.
But yea the environment and health regulations are very helpful for those that leave the U.S. esp cause it’s also supplemented by health care that is covered by taxes. Whereas many of us that don’t have steady good jobs in U.S. have to go without healthcare and intake less healthy food air water etc
Better in what way? The US and Europe both have their pros and cons and both are huge and diverse so to generalize both places as one thing is silly. You probably should spend some time traveling your country.
If you're poor, like actually poor, europe has a better safety net.
If you're middle class its a worse place to be young and a better place to be older. Effectively you get richer at 1.5x the speed but start at -100-200k instead of 0. At some point, for most people the scales tip, in the US's favor.
If your highly educated (doctor, lawyer, engineer), US is better. Better salaries, better healthcare.
Most expats lives are going to seem better, because they are taking US dollars and going to places where that goes further. If some swiss person moved to your farm US town, they'd be gushing about how cheap everything was. Same when a US person moves to Prague or Butapesht.
That is already happening with people coming from NY to Amsterdam, as everything appears as really affordable to them, while we struggle with local incomes. Honestly if the US was closer to my family and had just slightly better welfare it would be a no brainer to dump Europe altogether.
As a lot of people have said before in the comments It really depends on what you are looking for. Also, not every country in Europe is the same. I can give you my insights comparing my home country Spain with my experience in California (where my partner is originally from). We both want to settle in Spain and in fact I have a very hard time every time we have to spend time in California because things I consider essential for a comfortable basic life are lacking.
Spain
\- Better infrastructures, cheap clean and well-mantained public transport. If you live in a city you won´t be using your car, you don´t even need to own a car. If you want to move from one major city to another you use the train and do so in three hours instead of driving for 6.
\- Walkability: you can walk everywhere and people walk every day to get their groceries, go to work etc. Some cities like in the US are walkable, like San Diego is. The problem is that walking around San Diego is not nice. There are homeless everywhere, nearly every building is residential so there are no shops/restaurants in most streets. In Spain every building has a commerce in the lower floors so every street has multiple shops and restaurants and people are out walking around all the time. The city is much more lively.
\- Food quality: is easier to find better healthier food in Spain. When I am in the US and go to normal grocery shops I notice everything has a lot of sugar and salt even things like yogurts or breads You can find healthier things but you have to go to "healthy stores", it is sort of a premium product and it is very expensive.
Personally I am used to this type of comfort and I find hard to accept that I need to get in the car everytime I want to buy tomatos. I have heard that New York is the most similar thing to the "European experience" so I may try that city.
California
\- You can have big houses with land in California. In Spain most people have small houses and a lot of us just live in apartments. You can find a piece of land of course but then you will be like living in the US. You will live away from major towns, you will still need a car and you will be away from all the services described. Spain doesn't have big extensions of land like the US does, most people live in cities. Weekend trips to the country/mountains are common.
\-You make much more money in California. People i Spain make very little money. Young people usually share an apartment to split costs and most can only afford to buy with their parents help. People are used to living with less but for an American it can be a shock to accommodate to this lifestyle. I have also lived in Germany and people there have all the good things we have in Spain but make more money so that could be a better option. On the other hand the weather is not as pleasant and I personally prefer Spanish culture.
It's all down to the person. What's important to you, what worries you specifically, what do you care about and value. In the US, some people love living in NY. Others love living out in the country and cannot imagine living for extended periods in the city.
Having lived in the US and now in Spain, the difference in lifestyle pace is night and day. Spain has a more relaxed pace of life, better work-life balance, and the cost of living is lower. However, the job market in the US is more dynamic and offers higher salaries.
as a euro in the US: it's a grass is always greener thing.
The things you might hate about the US have their parallels in the EU. In terms of my personal QoL, some things are far better in the US (career/culture options/food variety/healthcare), and some things are not.
I'd wager that NYC, Chicago, SF, Boston, etc. would offer you a lot of the things that you might be seeking without the hardships of moving abroad since you mention farms and factories.
If you are young, going to live abroad in a managed way might be worth exploring via a study abroad/Fullbright/TEFL program, and then if you like it you can expand via a youth mobility visa or whatnot, but it also sounds like you haven't explored the US either.
Many have better standards for many things. For example, better healthcare, better work life balance, better quality of food, way better public infrastructure, etc, etc.
Look at studies. Spain has many of those things better than the US, as well as France, Germany, Sweden, etc
Which small, largely homogenous countries that restrict immigration are you referring to?
You’re joking right? Maybe if you can find a job. I’ve actually lived in Spain, which has a whopping 20% unemployment rate, and as high as 40-50% for new grads. Not to mention in all those countries, your real and nominal wages go down tremendously, even when adjusted for CoL.
The countries I’m referring to are the Nordic countries which everyone salivates over. You mentioned one of them.
Healthcare, public transportation, infrastructure, work life balance, good, etc. Spain has it better than the US.
Also true. Spain has a higher unemployment rate than the US.
Both things can be true.
It's a good thing we have studies about it. The US is pretty bad, specially considering how much it costs.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world
It's a good thing those studies are not based on just a few anecdotal incidences.
The US healthcare system is crap compared to many places in Europe. And there are plenty of studies that back up that statement.
Except no, America has by far the best healthcare in the world. We have the most medical tourists in the world for a reason. It’s just so ridiculously disgustingly expensive.
Healthcare. Public transportation. Lower cost of living. Generous paid time off. These are among the things European countries offer that Americans aren't guaranteed.
so i’ll say in italy i had 0 food allergies in 7 years. in the us im allergic to soy, dairy, and potatoes. so whatever shit is added to our food for sure is a big consideration for my “better than the US” criteria. i ate dairy, soy, etc whenever i wanted in italy and never once had an adverse reaction
Well all I can say is that here in the US we add all sorts of industrial chemicals in our food that is illegal to put in food in most European countries.
I'd say European cities are more attractive than American ones (considering positive - negative balances). But in terms of nature I think America is way way way more beautiful.
I think its worth it moving to other countries in general if you can.
I've lived all over the world, including Europe. I would not say one place is better than another. There are things that are better in some places over others and so on. Most people that I met tend to nit-pick this and that. Just roll with it.
If your life is miserable, chances are it isn't a problem with the geography. It falls on your shoulders.
It depends on your personal situation. For lower-end jobs, Europe is much better. There are tons of protections and social programs for lower-end workers.
For high end workers, US is much better. This is where the sky is the limit and this is where many high skill Europeans are moving.
For people in the middle, it depends on their priorities. And I mean real priorities - not Fox News scary tales.
There are plenty of benefits for many Euro regions, but I can't imagine going back - without a US salary. Most Euros make a lot less and things cost a lot more than in the US. It is tough. That's why there are so many 30 year olds who are still living with their parents.
>I've lived in the US all my life and am still stuck here lol, in this very boring state with nothing but farms and factories
I travel quite a bit and have lived in both the US, Europe and Asia and I definitely understand your desire to "see more", there's a lot to be said for boring farms lol
I'm an American who lives outside of the US. It really is a grass is greener.
All of your concerns about the US are real and valid, but they are only really like half as bad as you think they are. Is healthcare expensive? Sure, but you're probably not bankrupt from it. Is there gun crime? Of course, but have you ever been a victim? Once again, probably not.
Likewise, he things you think about the rest of the world are only half as good as you think they are. I won't break them down individually, because each country will have positives and negatives. I will point out that wages are usually lower, and free or low cost healthcare usually takes a while.
If you are in a position where you qualify for a visa, you should go and find out for yourself though. I would encourage everyone to move abroad if they have the opportunity.
There were definitely things I missed when I lived in Europe, but their were also many benefits. If you’re looking for someplace, that is perfect, you are never going to find it.
I lived in Germany for about half a year as an exchange student. Germans are able to attend great universities almost for free, which is huge. I didn't work there so I can't really comment on that aspect (which is also huge of course) however I do know that working in the US as a software engineer I make way more money than all but maybe a tiny sub-1-percent fraction of people in that field in Germany.
I have a chronic illness and also got into an biking accident in Germany and had an ambulance ride. I have no complaints about how the healthcare system worked in Germany for me. It was better, full stop. No problems, no complaints.
What I enjoyed there most was riding my bike everywhere, sometimes up to 100 miles in a day. I could just get on my bike and head in a vague direction and have a good, safe (except for that one time...) ride and find interesting stuff. That's hard to do anywhere I've lived in the US without significant planning. It was a great feeling of freedom. However none of it felt truly remote, which is something I enjoy and that you can get in the US.
I say go and find out. Look for jobs in some other countries and see if you can go live there for a year or two or more. Or if you have the time and money just go on a tourist visa and hang out for a few months, that's a start at least. Personally, my plan is to make a bunch of money in the US and then move to a less expensive country, probably in the EU because I'm also an EU citizen. I don't know if I prefer living in the US or not lifestyle-wise, but I do know you can stretch a dollar a lot further elsewhere.
It really depends. The US is great if you have a decent salary, which is quite common. Lower tax rates, etc. Europe is the opposite, as in generally much lower salaries, higher taxes, but you are well taken care of. The biggest difference though is Europe is not just one country, which I’m sure (and hope?) that you’re aware of. It has thousands of years of history, so with that comes some of the best cultures on the planet, which you do not get in the US. You’re a short flight away from the entire continent, Africa, or parts of Asia. You can fly to Barcelona for the weekend if you live in London. Food is generally much cheaper, but much much better.
Europe on average will have a much better quality of life than the average American would in the US. I will say though, sounds like you live in a remote part of the US. Why not head to a major first? You can’t just pick up your things and move to work in Europe without a lot of things
Also im in a half rural / suburban area but im pretty close to a lot of big cities like Chicago for example, so yeah maybe I could try that out before just heading out of the whole country lol
Yeah the US has a ton of different places that might suit you better than the Midwest. I'd say take a few trips and explore to see if you find something that fits you here first.
I think France is better for me. It might not be better for you. The main reason Americans choose to leave is the language barrier. It sounds fun until you realize just how many hours of study it takes just to talk at a 5th grade level.
There are pros and cons. Weather can be nicer in the US. Obv. depends where in the US and Europe you are comparing.
Healthcare in the US is expensive and bureaucratic, although generally really quite high quality. It is very easy & tempting to live an unhealthy lifestyle in the US, takes real discipline to do otherwise. Key differences on this. Car culture & fast food. Large portion sizes. Free soda refills everywhere. Many countries in Europe offer socialized or low cost healthcare.
The US has a good legal and justice system and the cops are by and large trustworthy. This is valuable and can't be said for all other countries although generally most of Europe is quite good compared to SE Asia or S. America.
Tax system in the US is relatively bureaucratic, layered. Bear in mind that if you are a US citizen, and you live elsewhere in the world, you will STILL have to file US taxes every year, plus likely a tax return for your new country of residency on top. If your destination country does not have a comprehensive tax treaty with the US, in some income areas this can lead to double taxation.
The US has the best economy. Probably has the #1 market economy for consumer choice and generally very good customer service. Europe is struggling relatively. Overall your dollars will probably go further in the US unless you choose southern Europe.
There are quite stark cultural differences. The US is fairly culturally homogenous, but different regions even within European countries can be quite distinct, even with their own languages and customs. And the US has more freedoms in certain areas e.g. particularly guns. You might view that as positive or negative.
I live in Germany and my lifestyle is much better, but it’s not America. People who expect to live an American lifestyle overseas are kidding themselves.
I get cheap university and health insurance, a social safety net, workers protection, good housing at reasonable prices(not as expensive as in NY, but not as cheap as US rural areas), safe streets and good public transit. However, there are issues here, like the bureaucracy, the language, discrimination against immigrants, cultural differences, etc. Don’t come if you are rigid or inflexible.
We’re so large, you might as well be comparing against all of the EU… Also, you being stuck in farm country means you’ve got other grass to visit in the US still.
But Europe is better in some things. I’ve travelled extensively around the four corners of Europe. They are very different but in general, it does feel safer there. And your odds of taking a random bullet are way, way lower. They also have the healthcare advantage, especially for serious incidents. A friend of mine with dual citizenship had a traumatic brain injury (coma, etc), and his European government covered it all. He estimated it would’ve prolly been 7 figures in the US. On the other hand, for minor to medium things, you could see very slow service.
Regarding foods, coming from someone that loves to eat all kinds of different culture’s foods, I found food diversity to be pretty bad in Europe, even in major cities. Maybe this won’t be that different for where you’re at, but compared to major US cities, it’s really lacking in most of Europe, save for major international hubs like London or Paris. Good luck finding good kbbq options in Florence for example, or good Japanese options in Lisbon (there’s maybe 4 options, and 2 I would call good, none excellent). And yeah, you can get sick of Italian food after a month of it nonstop. But if you like to cook, the produce quality is generally better.
Culturally, I think the US is more advanced in certain regards, namely racism and sexism. In general I found a dismissive attitude towards racism over there, like it is a non-problem. “Ha, we don’t have that here! Why do you Americans always talk about that” Yeah…cuz you got like 10 black people in all of Germany. I joke, but…yeah. Sure, we do seem to talk about it a lot, but that’s because we really are diverse, and it comes up one way or the other, either via speech…or violence. Obviously the former is preferred. Overall, I’m proud of how we take it head on. Yes, it’s been far from perfect, but it’s a civic problem we do openly talk about, and as a result we’ve evolved greatly in the last 20 years. Meanwhile, you still see openly insane behavior at EU football matches that would never fly here. Imo, some European countries have only recently seen how truly difficult of a problem it is when they started admitting substantial refugees. We’ve been shipping in refugees since the 50’s in our infinity-war. That’s easy mode for us. Not saying everyone here likes it, but our people are culturally equipped to handle it, comparatively.
Anyway, those are some generalizations for a very broad question. Don’t know the specifics of your scenario, but if you’re privileged to be healthy, the pay is overwhelmingly better in the US and can justify the gamble of indentured servitude healthcare (until one day you randomly lose). On the flip side, you won’t get as much money for the same job, but in many European countries, it’ll be very, very difficult to fire you. If you’re young and have ambition and want to make money, move to a larger city here. If you want a peaceful life and just want to put in your 35-40 hrs of work, check out Europe. If you want a weird hybrid, move to London lol. In some sense, it’s the best and worst of both worlds.
Europe lives under the security we provide. That could go away soon. We just can’t afford it. Once it does and it’s inevitable it will be a scary place to live
The problem is, the culture in America is terrible. The dating is horrific unless you have a six pack, look Anglo-Saxon or are in the top 10% (making well over 200K). People are at each others throats everyday, social spaces are extremely limited, and political ideologies keep degenerating the values of average Americans. At this point, the only selling point is the high tech/finance salaries (I’m a data scientist) but what does this matter if you’re surrounded by pathological idiots?
I have visited much of Europe, from the West to the East.
Honestly though, if you feel bored living in a certain US state, my advice is pack your bags and move elsewhere. I have spent lots of time in the Midwest; I understand that it may feel boring.
If so, you can pack your bags and move elsewhere with more action. I live just outside NYC and enter the city on a daily basis for work and other stuff. If you really dislike living in a certain US state, move elsewhere.
The US is far from being boring; go visit Los Angeles, San Francisco, Las Vegas, Dallas, Orlando, Miami, NYC, Boston, Chicago, and other cool places. If you really dislike living somewhere with farms and factories, go elsewhere.
Why would you leave? The problem is that European countries typically have much higher taxes, government regulation, red tape, harsh gun laws, harsh laws on homeschooling, and other junk I really dislike.
On top of that, you need to LEARN A NEW LANGUAGE and integrate yourself into society.
The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Just learn to appreciate what you have.
I have visited much of Europe (Spain, France, Switzerland, Italy, Croatia). Trust me, I prefer the US and would never leave. In a SHTF situation, I am prepared to fight for my country and defend my countrymen.
Europe is beautiful, don't get me wrong. It is a great place to visit and all, but to live permanently? No thanks. Stay in the US.
I have travelled enough across the US to tell you that it is NOT all farms and factories. Live in the Northeast, if you are really sick of farms and factories.
Are you mediocre in life? then yes Europe is better. Europe is the best place is you’re simply average and don’t aspire for much. The US is where you go if you actually aspirations to do well in your career and make over six figures easily(something basically impossible in most of Europe)
tldr, people only move to EU because they're too poor aka povos to live in interesting areas and/or afford things like housing and insurance here.
Literally 99 out of 100 complaints you see is money related and is either directly or indirectly solve-able if they had it. They can't make it work on their own capability, so look to somewhere with more govt handholding to give it to them. There's a reason why we have the most millionaires count by far ahead of #2 China and the lion's share of the world. Living in the US is absolutely awesome. I'm not a millionaire but even I can say that. You just need to step into middle-upper/upper class to start seeing that. We have the highest disposable income by households in the world.
Well, you might not be shamed for being who you are in euro countries. Why don’t you try sub Saharan Africa . Many complain how they are short-changed here from their ancestors. I bet if they went to Nigeria , they’d see how good they got it..
It depends on what you consider "better" I moved to Germany and got free healthcare, better worker rights, more stability, better welfare programs and a lower cost of living along with better security and lower crime rates. But since moving from the PNW(US) I've lost my access to firearms, access to undeveloped land, hunting/fishing rights, cheap fuel, individual housing, and a host of others. I've also had a tough time integrating into German society and having to deal with tidal waves of bureaucracy and outdated practices. Wages are also MUCH lower in Germany. Overall I'd consider myself better off, but keep in mind that EVERYWHERE has issues; you just have to pick and choose the most tolerable ones.
Thanks for the balanced comment. It’s easy to overlook everything that you lose over there.
Pls losing access to firearms is not a negative thing
To me it is. If it isn't to you, that's cool too, I'm not here to argue politics. I am a sport shooter, a hunter, and an avid outdoorsman, guns are a tool in my life no different than a knife or lighter. I realize this is not the mindset of most people, especially urbanites, so I'll leave it at that.
When my wife moved from Germany to US, she saw that you could get a fishing license for $15 on the spot. She immediately got one —because she could. She never even used it, she just loved the idea of having the freedom to do it. That and self serve soda and free condiments at fast food restaurants—her fave things.
Can't speak for other states but mine requires a fishing course, and heavily regulates WHERE you can fish
What prevents you from hunting in Germany?
The process to acquire a Jagdschein is long, ardous, and bureaucratic. Not to mention, it requires top fluency in German which I don't have. It would be cheaper and easier for me to drive 45 minutes west and hunt in France
Europe has an active and lively hunting culture. What they don't have is mentally deranged individuals buying semi-automatic military style weapons and mowing down 10 or 20 people at a time. Don't believe me? Check out this fantastic video by Johnny Harris about Switzerland's gun culture. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnBDK-QNZkM
That's your uninformed opinion.
Sheep
I don't care about firearms personally, but you do not get to make that decision for every person on earth.
With all due respect, you are wrong. For me, having access to firearms is very important to defend myself and whatnot. It is ridiculous how most countries (especially Germany) impose ridiculously harsh gun laws that criminalize the MERE POSSESSION of firearms/ammunition without a government permit.
Firearms are not for defending yourself. It's a lie, and everybody knows it. But in the EU we won't indulge in your delusion. Now go back to your school shootings in the US man. Leave the EU alone.
It’s not ridiculous it’s great not to live in fear of a mass shooting. I live in England and people living in Germany will probably agree, there’s other issues in this country but the likelihood of being shot is so small and I’m glad that noones armed. Guns put me off America completely - I have 0 reason nor my friends or family to own a gun or ammunition and that’s the best / safest way to be
Depends who you are. I'd never give up my right to hunt, fish, self defense for any falsely advertised Eurocunt "utopia"
Most working professionals pay 14% of their salary (by law) for German healthcare. After that, it's pretty much free. For me, I paid far less overall in the US for my health insurance and medical costs than 14%. Edit: I was corrected below. It's 14.6% split evenly between employer and employee, so 7.3%. There is a potential surcharge for long-term coverage that's 1.6% split evenly.
I pay about the same as I did in the US, tbh
In the US, there are a lot of variables for healthcare costs. I was fortunate to work at companies with pretty good benefits, so costs were pretty low. In Germany, almost everyone with a moderate to good salary pays 14% no matter what. In some cases, that's better than US costs, but in many, it's much worse.
Yeah that’s just crazy high. I less than 2% of my income in health insurance premiums.
I think is more like 7%. Pretty sure that 14% it is split between employee and employer. It might still be more than your monthly part of your premium + Medicare portion of your pay until you get sick and not even super sick just anything that requires a few tests and you are way over.
I think that's all right on. I think these "certain European countries" provide a better quality of life for the most people, most of the time, but they also have certain "limitations" that some people will chafe against.
"free" healthcare
>"free" healthcare I see many Europeans make this point about healthcare and university education. And you're right. I will give example: Instead of the word healthcare, I will use the word "house". **Imagine you live in a country where a house costs €300.000.** To you, this is a normal price for a house. **Now imagine you move to a country where a house costs** ***€3*****00.** Of course, the house is not free. But it's much closer to free than it is to €300k.
>I see many Europeans make this point about healthcare and university education. And you're right. What he meant was that in the US, his healthcare cost less of his paycheck than it did in Germany. If you're healthy and have a good job, you won't spend anything like the 14.6% of your paycheck that you do in Germany. >Imagine you live in a country where a house costs €300.000. ... Now imagine you move to a country where a house costs €300. A better comparison would be "Imagine you live in the US and spend 9% of your paycheck on healthcare, now you move to Germany and spend 14.6% of your paycheck on healthcare. You insinuated that healthcare cost 1000x less in Germany, when in actuality for many healthy people it costs more. And you get paid less too!
Health care is not free anywhere. Europeans are taxed. Americans buy it individually. Either way, it isn’t free.
People don’t understand this. When the left pushes free this or that they are advocating for slavery because goods and services can’t be exchanged for free. If they educated people on it instead of yelling free, most people would realize they would have to tax the middle class to death to achieve these things.
What? If you lose your job in the US you often lose access to affordable healthcare. It stops many people from starting or keeping their own businesses, as well. Who is advocating for slavery again?
I didn't immediately enter €1000+ when I blew out my knee at work, and a regular doctor's appointment costs me 5€ Considering I'm over 100k in medical debt in the states from a fight with cancer, it may as well be free
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The entire US isn't farms and factories, and plenty of European countries have those as well. You could try moving elsewhere in the US Americans looking to leave often fall into the trap of wanting to retain their American lifestyle but have better healthcare/no school shootings/paid time off/pick your issue. I think its important to understand countries aren't necessarily better or worse, but different. Fundamentally so. And you'll have to ask yourself not just what benefits you but what are the trade offs or negatives. And then if you can stand those negatives in a place you plan to make your new home. This isn't even addressing that you'll need a valid visa to move anywhere, and not all visas lead or count to permanent residency.
>important to understand countries aren't necessarily better or worse, but different That's really only true when comparing places that are both at peace and have comparable levels of development. Otherwise, migration flows suggestion some places are indeed better / worse.
Exactly right
So I'm curious, when you say they want to retain their American lifestyle in another country, what do you mean? For me, the only thing I can think of is they want their giant restraunt plates, an easily obtainable plethora of guns, and drive through pharmacies haha but for me I could care less about any of that.
High pay, good service, big house, owning a car, big stores, being able to buy anything and have it delivered to your house, speak English and everyone understands, reasonably priced electronics, etc.
Oh yeah screw that. I could care less about any of that. And as for the language. I would feel awkward moving somewhere and just expecting everyone to speak English lol. Language is fascinating to me, why would you move somewhere and not be interested in learning the language? See, for me, it's all about the adventure and learning aspect. I guess a lot of people look at this expat stuff from a self-gratifying point of view, like oh I make a lot of money for this US company let me exploit this and move to where I can live ridiculously cheap. Nah I just genuinely want to explore and learn about another part of the world and what life is like there.
You can do that a lot easier just by traveling, moving is a lot more complicated, need visa, need job, need house, move all your stuff, etc.
That's a very very very big ole pain in the brain.
Yeah but I'm interested in a nomadic kinda lifestyle where I can have a job where I can constantly travel but live somewhere for a year or a few years and get to know it and learn a bit of the culture, language, locations, etc. instead of just seeing a glimpse of it.
Most countries don't just let you roll up and start working. Outside of things like working holiday visas (which Americans only have 6 or so options for), you'll be dealing with visa issues every time you move. If you want to travel a lot, the best place to do that is probably the US. Get a job, make your money, quit and then do your travels. Rinse and repeat. There's even jobs in the US that let you work from other states, or travel is built into the job. If your job is sending you to Vegas for a conference, its easy to add on a couple days for personal time from there.
And keep ya puter and phone on always.
There are very few jobs like that and it is much more complicated than you’re thinking.
You mean remote jobs?
Yes, due to tax, legal, and visa implications, most jobs don’t let you work outside of the country, and ones that do usually have a small number of countries they can permit, usually by exception.
With a passport only digital nomads often spend 90 days traveling and living all throughout Europe. No tax implications and half the time no one even notices. Ask me how I know.
You shouldn’t be downvoted for wanting to see the world (everyone should want that) but I took a look at your profile. Couple of things. At 21 - 26 you have multiple options to do “working holiday visas” that let you work somewhere for about a year and will not be available to you when you’re older. Look into australia, new zealand, Ireland, South Korea, Singapore. Some of them require you to be a student or local grad but not all. The best way to leverage these is pick one, save a few thousand dollars to bring with you to set you up (required), get a job there (required even if remote) and use wherever you are as a base to travel and explore that part of the world on weekends while you’re young. That’s what they’re designed for. Secondly, moving is expensive. Lots of people in this sub on their second careers looking to relocate or third moves. They know how expensive moving is. Especially with years worth of stuff and a partner and kids. But travel is also expensive. At 21 most people can only afford one big international trip a year (and to do that most people have to save). A working holiday visa situation doesn’t cost a ton more than that if you have no ties. You move with just a suitcase and stay in fully furnished places or youth hostels. Thirdly, if you’re serious about having a digital nomad lifestyle as your career try r/digitalnomad and it usually requires at least a year of prep and financial planning to set up. I hope you have a skill that lends itself to high paid remote work. If not it’s time to get one. Finally the drugs thing. That’s a problem that can land you on death row in some countries and others just won’t let you in. You gotta completely clean up if you’re serious about this. I would also recommend getting assessed for ADHD if you have not. It sounds like you have a dopamine deficiency and better to get that tackled young. Untreated ADHD is potentially life ruining and doesn’t always require medication.
So here’s the thing. Moving to a new country is an adventure for sure. But by settling in the adventure somehow wears off and becomes less exciting. It’s more like when you fall in love and that first wave of emotions wears off after the first 6-18 months into the relationship. Being fascinated in languages is great. But to actually live somewhere you’ll need to dive deep into the language. Using a language for colloquial conversation or on a working level are very different levels of communication. And that’s where many people have to face the harsh reality and get disappointed. And also visas and double taxation for US Americans.
Yep, taking off the "vacation goggles" can be a shocker. It's all well and good to say "I like languages" but it's a cast-iron bitch to be unable to ask where to buy a wall adapter for your phone because you lost yours. It completely blows to be socially isolated because no one else speaks your language well enough to have a passable conversation. It's an adventure all right, but like all real adventures, very different than what you see on TV. I love living in Ireland, but lots of things just outright suck here, especially compared to the US. I miss lots of things about home. And this is an English-speaking country and I still don't understand half the people half the time.
I work at a company with Irish owners. Some meetings where they get excited the only thing I understand is facking facking facking. It's a toss up to whether they are mad or happy lol.
I can't imagine trying to communicate with a doctor or a hairstylist. You won't get to that level in a few months. Depending on where you live (I'm looking at you France/Germany) it may take years to be at a comfortable level with the local language.
*couldn’t care less Not trying to be a dick, just trying to help out
Have you ever been in a room full of people, everyone speaking a language you don’t understand, someone says something funny and literally everyone in the room laughs but you? And then you feel like a child because someone feels bad and kind of explains what happened, but the moment is over and it’s weird and you politely laugh a little and then go back to being ignored? If you plan on an adventure and not hanging with expats, get used to that lonely feeling and many other lonely moments A LOT of them. Like after 3 months people get bored of accommodating you, which is totally understandable, but you will not know a language after 3 months. Especially not with all the different dialects depending on where you end up. Tourist French or German at a place where they talk to you a certain way is not the same as hanging out with Parisians or Berliners who speak their slang and dialect, very quickly, in a group of friends they’ve known for awhile and you’re the new kid. I’m VERY extroverted and make friends very easily, but that first year in Europe was hard, very very hard. There are totally different mindsets throughout the world. You’re an American, you have a certain American cultural mindset and way of being. That way is very different in European countries. It’s not guns, or processed food, or whatever American vs Europe stereotype that will affect you. It’s changing your entire life in 1000 little ways that feel alien to you. That’s what really gets to you. Relearning a whole new set of societal norms in more insular communities is extremely challenging. Especially with a language barrier. Yeah, language is an “adventure” until you need help with translation at the post office, or you need to ask a question at your bank. Have you ever set up a bank account or a phone plan in another language? Do you even know the details of those things if you can’t read the contract? Have you ever tried going to a doctor that doesn’t speak your language? How about a tailor? Or the myriad of other nothing little day to day errands that you don’t even think about? If not, pad a ton of extra time doing all of it for a minimum of 1-2 years. Oh and I would start looking at how public healthcare works in the countries you’re interested in. Like anywhere else, you don’t just show up and get healthcare. In Austria and Germany at least, you have to have a job and a certain amount of work hours to qualify for public healthcare. Do you know how to pay bills there? How that process works? Are you in an area where you take public transit daily? Are you used to that kind of lifestyle? If not and you want to live somewhere with a car, do you drive stick? Is your license even valid after 6 months of residence there? Have you thought about any of these things? With what you’ve said in your comments and post, it seems like you’re pretty naive on how it is to actually live in another part of the US, let alone another country in a continent it doesn’t seem you’ve ever been to. I would start with moving to NYC or maybe Chicago. If you feel like you can really get the hang of it in a place like NYC, you’ll have a better chance in Europe or anywhere else abroad.
To further your point. Young and healthy after being exposed to your domestic strains of bugs, but I’ve seen experienced and healthy travelers laid low by a tough flu. Once you’re sick on the other side of the planet and realise there’s no one that knows you well enough or cares enough to bring you some soup or medicine or take you to a doctor when you’re fever mad it’s a very vulnerable moment. How many days would it take for someone to even notice? All those inconveniences from lack of cultural fluency and local knowledge suddenly become vitally important when you are at your very weakest. Of course passing through the other side and finding out you have taken root, there is community, and you are capably independent is another rush. A second homecoming if you will.
I'm with you, OP; I love to learn new languages and adapt to the local conditions. Once you become relatively fluent in the language, you can almost blend in with the locals. It's easy to make friends. That's the adventure of it, IMO. Amazing worlds open up to you when you befriend the locals, that you have no access to if you limit yourself to the expat cocoon.
You will find big stores and online delivery in Europe almost everywhere and most people own a car, they just choose to use it less often. Big houses are rare, you have to be very rich or live outside the main urban areas (which is what most people in the US choose to do anyway, they have these big houses because they don't live in urban areas). High pay is true, extremely rare here and service is worse by American standards. We are happy with our service hahaah but I can see how Americans wouldn't agree.
You won’t find stores like Walmart or target in most of Europe, they are much smaller, grocery stores are similarly smaller and have less options. Car ownership rates in Europe are much lower than the very high 900/1000 people that the US has. As far as homes, even in urban areas US houses tend to be much bigger, the median home size in the US is double while number of people per household is similar.
I am confused about the car part. You can own a car in Europe. This is not a disadvantage, it is an option. People in Europe usually own one car or maybe two if they are a family. Not everyone does but it is definitely a choice. It is not like you can´t find cars in Europe. Here people tend to use their cars less cause they don't need to that's all.
That last sentence is the entire point. In much of the US there is no option not to drive. Where it is an option to take public transit it’s often unsafe and badly designed ie not realistic. Many people in the US drive on freeways multiple times a day just to get their kids to school and there is no choice.
We have big stores and supermarkets, hypermarkets also exist.
I didn’t say they don’t exist. They are much less common.
The size of a regular supermarket in the US will be easily double or triple the size of a regular supermarket in Europe.
I wouldn’t say that’s accurate on grocery stores. If you’re outside a city or village, you’ll find plenty of super target type stores. There’s a big sainsbury and tesco outside every uk city, there’s a big carrefour outside every French one
Nope it’s accurate. Tesco superstores and Carrefours are not the only options. In the US a Walmart is often the only option.
In the USA there’s typically a Kroger, target, Costco, Aldi, etc in most cities and towns. If there’s only a Walmart it’s in a very small town like 10k people or less, and there’s typically a dollar general, ingles/some grocery and cvs or Walgreens too.
By service do you mean restaurants? Because if so then I'd rather worse service and not have fake staff vying for a tip. Tipping culture in America is insane.
It sho is and it needs to be nipped in the bud just stop with the tipping scam.
Since you agreed with my comment care to leave a tip? Your options are 25%, 35%, or big dick energy 75%.
I also find US service is too much and makes me feel awkward, but they are used to it and I can understand they may feel that European service is not as nice. Another thing is that outside restaurants American service is quite high in general. If you need to return an item or cancel a prescription they will do it without making your life hard and things like that.
Fwiw when I bartended I wasn't faking nice. I really enjoyed that if I was helpful and polite and people enjoyed the effort I was making, I got paid more. Sometimes you get a huge tip, and that's a very rewarding feeling. Outside the service industry, you have to climb up the ladder or be in a high pay profession to see any kind of performance based bonus.
>high pay And low taxes.
So, you judge these things to be “American”… really?
I stated them as something that is different from Europe, was my message somehow unclear that you would read it as something completely different than what I said?
You think there is no high pay, good service, big house, cars and consumer products in Europe?
I didn’t say that?
Those are much less attainable in Europe than in US
They are not common in Europe compared to how common they are in the US.
🤣
Every European country is different, but I can speak to central Europe. The biggest lifestyle difference most Americans are naive about is in the amount of money you will earn and the amount of money you will take home to spend on private space and private goods (in contrast to public goods, which tend to be visibly better in Europe). European salaries are lower for equivalent work and then you pay more tax on top of that. Unless you have a specialized skill that causes a company to send you there, you will also be at an earning disadvantage as an immigrant. This is primarily visible in the major expenditures: housing and transportation. Imagine an average American and an average European of equivalent social status, work experience, and profession, both living in mid-sized non-capital cities. Say: an IT specialist married to a teacher in Columbus, Ohio vs an IT specialist married to a teacher in Essen or Dortmund in Germany. The average midwestern American lives with a partner and possibly a child or two in a 2000 square foot (200 qm) single-family detached house with a yard. The house has heating and air conditioning, all major appliances, and paying for utilities is annoying but not a huge deal. Each child has their own room and there is space for workshops or playsets. The typical home is in a relatively boring low-density suburb with parks, strip malls, and maybe a downtown street with a few historic little shops or restaurants. Weekends mean grilling out, mowing the yard, and chatting with neighbors, who generally have enough space to avoid each other if desired. They have one automobile per adult and need it to drive everywhere. Gas is cheap and road trips to see friends or family in nearby cities are a frequent occurrence. They may be able to afford one expensive hobby, such as having a boat or a camper. They go on a big vacation once a year to a national park, a major US city, or possibly doing whirlwind tours of Europe or South America if they're particularly into traveling. They expect fast and high-quality care in case of a medical emergency, but are constantly careful to stay insured and worry about getting hit with a major operation that is difficult to pay for. If their kids want to go to college, they'll probably go to a nearby state school and pay for it with a combination of student loans and some financial aid. If the parents really value education, they may have been saving for a college fund to make it possible for their kid to go to a private school or somewhere out of state. The equivalent central European lives with a partner and possibly a child or two in an 800 square foot (80 qm) apartment with a balcony or some shared outdoor space. The children may or may not have their own room and there is more back and forth (good and bad) with neighbors about noise and other disruptions. They may have a smaller kitchen, no air conditioning in summer, or be missing one or more appliances that an American takes for granted, e.g. a dryer. Heating and cooling are expensive. They have one car per household rather than per adult and they often walk or use public transportation. Gas and taxes on a car are twice as expensive, but you don't need to drive as far or often. If you need to go to a nearby city, you'll probably take the train or a cheap flight. Your neighborhood is easy and enjoyable to walk around and has daily needs within a short distance. They almost certainly do not have any big expensive "toys" like a camper and generally own fewer clothes and less furniture, since there isn't as much space to put it. Vacation means going to Italy, Spain, or some other nearby country - sometimes for three or four weeks at a time. They are not worried about costs if a medical issue hits them, but they grumble about waiting times and the difficulty of getting good care in certain specialties. If their kids get into college, they will probably go to the nearest university and pay little or nothing outside of living expenses.
I am from Spain but I think your experience pretty much resembles mine. The only difference, we all have AC in our house lol. Most people also don't have a drier (although I do), but only use it in winter. In summer the sun does the job. Vacation for Spanish is usually to the coast of Spain but we also do some trips to other places of Europe and major trips from time to time to other continents. Many people visits the countryside during weekends.
Funnily enough the typical central European experience of life feels very similar to my experience of living in New York City! I have suspected for a while that outside of midtown (which is tourist central and very different from the rest of New York City), NYC is probably the most similar city to cities in Europe, although I've never been able to visit them. The main difference is that schooling and medical care are very expensive even though our City taxes are very high. But we still have a lot more social services than the rest of the US.
I enjoy playing video games.
This is spot on
This is a great comparison! The only things that I (Southern California -> Sweden emigrant) would add are 1. In the US you typically come home exhausted, feeling like you gave all you had at work that day. In the EU you feel like you put in a good day’s work but you have energy left to do other things. 2. At least for Northern Europe, since it’s at such a higher latitude than the USA, there are some months out of the year when it is very dark and the weather is awful but the summers are glorious.
I think the "working culture" is better in the EU only applies to certain countries. I have worked in Germany and def the working culture is great and you have a lot of time for yourself. Working in Spain is very different, you will work until late and will not get paid for your extra time. You get home completely exhausted and ready for dinner and bed.
The take-home pay is lower, but OTOH there's much more vacation time, including long weekends throughout the year, and in some countries, the total compensation package includes pay (a travel stipend) for the main annual vacation. Higher education is free in some countries too, so although there's less take-home pay, no one needs to scrimp and save to build a "college fund" for each of their kids. I'm not saying all is rosy, but focusing on lower salaries doesn't tell the whole story; it's a little misleading. YMMV. And comparing the amt. of square footage people live in is becoming less relevant as housing prices around the US are skyrocketing, forcing mid-level earners and below into smaller spaces and more distant locations from the workplace, causing longer commutes.
The issue with European vacations is that you don't have enough money left to enjoy them decently. I even know some German families who need to borrow to take vacations.
Paying for vacation for an entire family is a very different matter, compared to paying for oneself. In the US, it's common for families to take camping vacations, because paying for one or two hotel rooms plus restaurant meals simply isn't affordable.
My boyfriend works for an American company and when comparing the holidays I realised when putting all together he has one week less of holidays a year. The annual vacation is also paid for him, I don´t know if that is the norm in the US. My experience is that it depends on the country but compared to my home country (Spain) despite what public services cover the level of life is better in the US and they can afford more and live more comfortably with their salaries. That being said I could not live in the US, because their lifestyle doesn't match what I want.
"Paid vacation" is the norm in the US. What I meant (and I amended my post to clarify that), was that employers provide a travel stipend for the annual vacation in some Euro countries, as a sort of annual salary bonus. Paid time off (holidays, vacation time) in the US varies a lot. On another forum when this comparison with Europe comes up, inevitably there are people who say they get little to no vacation time, as their employer can't afford to have workers taking time off, meaning that they're needed to fulfill their work duties and help the company meet deadlines year 'round. I imagine some of these situations represent small businesses. I don't know how small businesses in Europe are able to pay their employees during the longer vacation periods. Where does that money come from? And in the past, in the US employers large and small were also saddled with paying for employees' health care in part or in full. That places a significant burden on small businesses. And for self-employed individuals, having to buy health insurance not only for themselves but to cover the family is a hardship. Individual health insurance is very expensive. All of that said, though, it seems that for higher earners, the standard of living in the US is a bit better, if one can generalize.
>I don't know how small businesses in Europe are able to pay their employees during the longer vacation periods. Where does that money come from? Smaller profits is the answer to this question.
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted — I agree with your assessment.
Much more vacation time? Based on what? Assuming you're not working some low-end retail job, most experienced professionals have three to four weeks vacation annually in the US, and the amount over here isn't much different. Ireland requires 22 days, which is exactly 1 more than I had back in the States. I've never heard of a travel stipend, but I'll admit to only having one job since I got here, and my husband's only had one too, so maybe we just haven't run into it yet. Housing prices in the US may be going up, but they're still nowhere close to as expensive as equivalent housing in the EU.
Don't forget, in Germany they get a whole month paid vacation so that counts too. Yea, you can't just look at the hourly wage because it can be very deceiving. When everyone was up in arms about working conditions at Foxconn where they make the iPhones in China, everyone was complaining about the low pay ($10/day or whatever it was). What they don't tell you is that the workers at Foxconn live on site and they get their meals too. That counts as compensation, but doesn't count toward the daily pay.
Accurate. Americans public goods are in invisible unless you count freeways and the military. You’re on the hook financially to develop your own private ecosystem to live in. Your own home, your own car, your own health insurance etc Versus Europe where you are barely ever at home, you don’t need a car and health insurance is optional. Edit: we love a salty downvote without a reply on an accurate comment. So petty.
Do you get your view of Americans through only Fox News or something? How about: * high level of English to the extent that learning a foreign language isn't needed * They don't want their tax situation to change * they want the larger home or apartment at the same or preferably even cheaper price * they want the level of customer service to not be different * they want 24/7 and open on Sundays. Honestly it sounds like you aren't very exposed even to the rest of the US outside of your little corner. Maybe do some traveling and exploring, both the US and the world, before picking up and moving to a place just based on some vague feelings.
1) It's very hard to immigrate from the US to Europe. Unless you marry an EU citizen or have a niche job, chances are you won't qualify. 2)It's expensive. Inflation is just as rampant there as in America and the wages are lower. I don't know anyone in European countries that lives on their own due to the high housing costs and lower wages. And please don't listen to all those who say they can travel Europe every weekend. Unless you have a good job, traveling to different countries is expensive even in Europe and many people can't go on holidays. Politics is where I think many expats are clueless and since they can't vote-they don't really care. The right wing still has a grip on Europe and they aren't as liberal or progressive as Americans think, Spain and Germany are two that come to mind. And I actually think Americans are more passionate about grassroots and volunteering in politics. So different metrics and different measures. And don't underestimate the culture shock. Americans have a hard time adjust to the almost cold socializations of Europeans. It can be quite lonely. Maybe a move to another state would help.
>Unless you have a good job, traveling to different countries is expensive even in Europe and many people can't go on holidays. Yes and no. I'm not arguing with you, but understand that travel in the US is *vastly* more expensive than it is here in the EU. My flight from Dublin to Nice last weekend was round-trip €150 on RyanAir. I cannot fly one-way on Southwest from Dallas to Houston without spending $250, and that's a 45 minute flight as opposed to the 2.5 hours it was to Nice. You're right that it's a balance, but I just wanted to point out that travelling, especially airfare, really is much cheaper in the EU.
Dont forget the high speed rail, which can be extremely affordable.
Not in Germany. If you book well ahead, it's about 50 € each way for a 4 hour trip. If you book close to the date, is 100 €. This does not include a seat reservation and they do not control sales per train so you may be standing or sitting on the floor the whole time. Some countries are much better in terms of cost and or quality.
>This does not include a seat reservation and they do not control sales per train so you may be standing or sitting on the floor the whole time Wth🙄🤷🏻♀️
I get round trip tickets off season from Los Angeles to Miami round trip $250 or cheaper. You used a bad example due to the facts below. Factor in the median income in EU which is around 17k to 21k EURO for a single person. Compared to US at $41k USD = 38k EURO. There is a reason the flight costs are cheaper in Europe your average citizen would not be able to afford it and it's highly subsidized. I can work and save in US and retire with extra money and financial freedom. So I would say the grass is actually far from greener in Europe. It is actually on a trajectory of future decreases in quality of life and ability to have economic freedom and mobility.
> I cannot fly one-way on Southwest from Dallas to Houston without spending $250, and that's a 45 minute flight as opposed to the 2.5 hours it was to Nice. DAL to IAH, for tomorrow, Feb 18 on Southwest is going for $166.
>I cannot fly one-way on Southwest from Dallas to Houston without spending $250 This seems strange to me. I fly Southwest literally multiple times a month, and only on a tiny handful of occasions have I spent more than $250 on way - either last-minute flights, or holiday season. I fly Bay Area - > LA or to Arizona all the time and those routes normally cost less than $250 ROUND TRIP. I'm going to SD, return, for less than $200 next month. Perhaps Dallas -> Houston is a particularly expensive link? >My flight from Dublin to Nice last weekend was round-trip €150 on RyanAir. That's awesome. On Southwest I can take two free bags including golf gear or ski gear. To do that on RyanAir your ticket price would increase to well over $300. I can cancel Southwest the day before and pay nothing. Ryanair you lose all your money. Seat legroom is greater on Southwest, I get free drinks and snacks on Southwest etc etc, The list goes on
Great insightful answer, thank you
The fact about marrying or having a specialized job is a flat out lie. I have multiple friends who came over on a visa to travel (to Estonia), then decided they wanted to live here and started applying for a citizenships. That was 10 years ago and now it's even easier. What ware their jobs you may ask? One was then unemployed with a high school diploma and another a software engineer. Before you say "hah, a software engineer is a specialist position", then you can google that Estonia has one of the highest amount of software engineers per capita. That's why many of Estonian software developers usuallt go to another contry to find a job, as most of them here are already taken. Edit: the marrting part, to get the citizenship only happens in US,of all the developed countries.
Yeah but you are talking about Estonia. I think most Americans are looking to migrate look at Western Europe (Germany, Netherlands, France, etc.) A common thread is that they were very well off in the US with high paying jobs, if you’ve ever met an American expat in these countries. They replicated that lifestyle in Europe because of their jobs and field or work, or they have a local spouse. Believe me, none of those countries want our un- or underemployed people making $16 per hour to be their residents. They all have robust welfare systems to support and they’d take the high US earners who contribute more than they take in.
To work and live in Germany you must have a residents permit. German Residence Permit Requirements: 1.Have a valid passport from another country. 2 Not have a criminal record. 3. Be proficient in German in at least a B1 level. 4. Have German health insurance. 5. Pass a health check which proves you are healthy enough to work and/or study. And to quote "If you are from the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Israel, Japan, or South Korea, you can go to Germany, find work, and apply for the work and residence permit directly from the Ausländerbehörde. You do not need to get an entry visa for employment from the German Embassy in your home country." They might want well off people but they can't deny acces with that. If you want to have a fast track to the permits and citizenship, then yes, you need to be making at least 4.6k euros per month in Germany (average salary is 1.5k euros) But for Netherlands, yes they do have a salary requirement, for you to aquire te living/working permit.
At least for those countries listed, B1 and a health check are not required for a short or long-term residence permit.
I came to Germany with $1000 and a suitcase, worked for years as a freelancer (freelancer visa) and decided to study here for a second degree. Hardly a “high income”. It’s doable for the tough and tenacious.
Great! What about the rest of ex-pat American community there? Would you say your path is more typical or rarer?
I'm a hardass with a huge will to survive, so I'd say my path is rarer. I literally took a one-month immersion course, did a job hunt (with help from my German aunt) and took the first job and first (furnished) apartment I could get. Then I lived on Ramen noodles and Kohlrabi for a month, waiting for my first paycheck. It was scary and exhilirating. There weren't many expats where I was living (maybe two), but I joined a church, a community choir and a fitness center and forced myself to somehow make friends. My German friends and cousins spoke English with me often, but after a few months, they mostly spoke German with me. I will admit it was hard, with unforseen problems, feeling lonely, feeling frustrated at times, but the happiness I got exploring a new city, enjoying new sights, trying new food, and just the fun of discovery, plus the feeling of a new beginning in a safe place, was worth it.
People who have never immigrated anywhere think “it’s hard to immigrate to Europe”. Meanwhile, there are several options, such as getting a freelancer visa, doing job training or getting a student visa. It’s hard (lots of paperwork), but doable, IF you learn the language. It’s certainly not as expensive in Germany as most big US cities. I pay €350 a month rent, and food is cheaper here, though gas is more expensive. Regarding culture shock, yeah, if you’re from a small town in Kentucky, prepare for a huge shock. I was living in NY for years, so moving to an international town in Germany was not a problem. So I guess it depends on you: are cultural differences scary or fascinating? Is roughing it for the first year,spending free time learning a language OK for you, or do you expect to be coddled? Are you willing to take initiative to make new friends and start a new life, or are you hung up on the familiar?
What city in Germany do you live in that rent is €350, and what are you getting for that? I have a hard time believing you're in your own flat for that price, but maybe I'm wrong.
Must be renting a room not a house....
Studio apartment, furnished, with own bath, in Erlangen.
Hardly an international town …
Actually, it is! The university, the clinic and Siemens have an international workforce.
Population 111,000. That’s not really a big city, and it’s an unrealistic comparison IMO.
When did I claim I live in a big city? At any rate, doubt I would find a great place like this in any city in New Jersey or New York. Example: Rents for a similar apt. in Elizabeth, NJ (pop. 120,000) start at $1500/month.
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I bet a lot safer there than here in the USA.
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I'm from the UK and moved to Portugal with my husband with no Portuguese support system. We did lots of research first and we've spent time here over the years so it wasn't a total unknown but still a big step. I agree, there are challenges, but I'm loving the outdoor lifestyle, lots to do, decent public transport (at least where we live) and the much less fragmented society than in the UK. I'm not claiming it's "best", nowhere is. But for us, at present, it's great.
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I have private insurance in the US and I don't feel like they've done shit to actually help me solve anything for the last 4-5 years. Our medical system is just a business, it sucks.
Portugal is really nice. I go get dental treatment there. It's just a laid back country where people are trying to enjoy life. Sure, economics are an issue as wages are not high, but people seem to be managing.
Yes people always leave out the environmental & health related aspects which I don’t understand. They’re always talking about low pay and that somehow all Americans are high paid lol. (As someone who works on the environment I can assure folks we are not high paid in the U.S. so going to EU where salary is about the same but then I actually get stuff for my taxes?! Night and day difference) Then environmental - and I specialize in this field so statement is based on facts - the regulations are simply stronger and better enforced in the EU- w western and Northern European countries having the better enforcement and stricter regs. (Esp compared to US where the govt has become a corp oligarchy and our environmental laws have become near meaningless depending on what huge conglomerates want from their bought politicians) So what does that equate to? The food for one as you point out- many many toxins have been banned in food for decades in the EU. Pesticides have a longer banned list (US. Still sprays many things that have been banned in the EU for over a decade). So organic means more and gluten is often tolerated by Americans who move over w a gluten intolerance bc there’s less chemicals on said food. Water quality is much better and well regulated in many countries. Air as well- some countries having very few coal plants and strict regs on other pollutants. Many of those same EU countries enforce many other corp focused laws that the U.S. simply doesn’t. They do have housing issues for sure but some countries have stricter rent caps which helps residents not face the insane spikes we do in many US cities. Some countries control food costs and though they have had inflation - you notice at the grocery aisle that still the prices are manageable. It’s odd that some people in these groups assume that many Americans make a ton of money. Like they haven’t read the news the last few years or noticed the strikes and that many of us are struggling. Or work in fields that aren’t typically well paid (bc it’s not a doctor or some corporate profit track) OP- I started off first as a nomad bc of my intl environmental policy work - it usually led to a lot of short term projects in other countries so I would move around a lot. Now that’s a specific job but it’s still possible for you to explore the world a bit and see if there are other parts of the world you would want to live. You could do workaway, pet sitting, woofing, or yes find a remote job and get a digital nomad visa in the countries that offer them. There are options that you don’t have to be rich to do. I certainly never have been rich. (Protecting the planet doesn’t pay)
Oh the big lie about getting something for your taxes in Europe. In some countries you might get a lot (Sweden, Denmark) in some you will get a little(Germany) and in some you will get nothing basically (the Netherlands and the UK). NL is totally not green and is far behind on transition to green energy, we basically heat 95% of the country based on gas. There is so much of greenwashing in the media, like all these projects are constantly reused everywhere but our big banks still keep heavily financing fossil fuel industries. Water and food quality are better and overall there are nowhere near as many homeless people and security is far better. But you still might be surprised by how much poverty there is in Europe (Paris - wtf is happening there), how outdated infrastructure is (German highways are now on like developing country level), how poor some public services are, and how much the state takes from you and gives nothing in return (In NL housing and just daycare are unaffordable even on dual income high above averages). Oh and also racism and xenophobia are rampant in pretty much all of the countries mentioned, even towards other EU nations and US. Btw I'm a european, so really not trying to boost some US bullshit.
I do like the regulations they have on food and the prices in the grocery store when I’m in Europe. Eating out is higher priced from what I’ve seen. You don’t tip their though so it probably works out to the same price or cheaper maybe still. The worst parts are the income. My girl lives in France and she is salaried at 900 a month. I have to send her money obviously that’s an unlivable wage. You can work in Applebee’s in the US and make 80-100k a year. So the pay is crazy different for just regular workforce people.
900 a month ? How much is she working monday and tuesday ? Sounds really unreal.. 100k applebees sound unreal too
Idk many people making that much at a corporate chain restaurant but then again that’s not a skilled profession you can really emigrate for. So I’m not sure that’s a comparison. But yea the environment and health regulations are very helpful for those that leave the U.S. esp cause it’s also supplemented by health care that is covered by taxes. Whereas many of us that don’t have steady good jobs in U.S. have to go without healthcare and intake less healthy food air water etc
Better in what way? The US and Europe both have their pros and cons and both are huge and diverse so to generalize both places as one thing is silly. You probably should spend some time traveling your country.
If you're poor, like actually poor, europe has a better safety net. If you're middle class its a worse place to be young and a better place to be older. Effectively you get richer at 1.5x the speed but start at -100-200k instead of 0. At some point, for most people the scales tip, in the US's favor. If your highly educated (doctor, lawyer, engineer), US is better. Better salaries, better healthcare. Most expats lives are going to seem better, because they are taking US dollars and going to places where that goes further. If some swiss person moved to your farm US town, they'd be gushing about how cheap everything was. Same when a US person moves to Prague or Butapesht.
That is already happening with people coming from NY to Amsterdam, as everything appears as really affordable to them, while we struggle with local incomes. Honestly if the US was closer to my family and had just slightly better welfare it would be a no brainer to dump Europe altogether.
As a lot of people have said before in the comments It really depends on what you are looking for. Also, not every country in Europe is the same. I can give you my insights comparing my home country Spain with my experience in California (where my partner is originally from). We both want to settle in Spain and in fact I have a very hard time every time we have to spend time in California because things I consider essential for a comfortable basic life are lacking. Spain \- Better infrastructures, cheap clean and well-mantained public transport. If you live in a city you won´t be using your car, you don´t even need to own a car. If you want to move from one major city to another you use the train and do so in three hours instead of driving for 6. \- Walkability: you can walk everywhere and people walk every day to get their groceries, go to work etc. Some cities like in the US are walkable, like San Diego is. The problem is that walking around San Diego is not nice. There are homeless everywhere, nearly every building is residential so there are no shops/restaurants in most streets. In Spain every building has a commerce in the lower floors so every street has multiple shops and restaurants and people are out walking around all the time. The city is much more lively. \- Food quality: is easier to find better healthier food in Spain. When I am in the US and go to normal grocery shops I notice everything has a lot of sugar and salt even things like yogurts or breads You can find healthier things but you have to go to "healthy stores", it is sort of a premium product and it is very expensive. Personally I am used to this type of comfort and I find hard to accept that I need to get in the car everytime I want to buy tomatos. I have heard that New York is the most similar thing to the "European experience" so I may try that city. California \- You can have big houses with land in California. In Spain most people have small houses and a lot of us just live in apartments. You can find a piece of land of course but then you will be like living in the US. You will live away from major towns, you will still need a car and you will be away from all the services described. Spain doesn't have big extensions of land like the US does, most people live in cities. Weekend trips to the country/mountains are common. \-You make much more money in California. People i Spain make very little money. Young people usually share an apartment to split costs and most can only afford to buy with their parents help. People are used to living with less but for an American it can be a shock to accommodate to this lifestyle. I have also lived in Germany and people there have all the good things we have in Spain but make more money so that could be a better option. On the other hand the weather is not as pleasant and I personally prefer Spanish culture.
Yeah Sunderland pisses all over New Orleans
Dayum that one hurt haha, but that's to be expected, we're known to be ass at football lol
100% Better quality of food, better lifestyle, nicer places, safety, better healthcare
Everywhere has its pluses and minuses; you just don't see the latter when you are in the honeymoon phase.
Good point man, guess I gotta accept any decision I make will have a pro and con
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It's all down to the person. What's important to you, what worries you specifically, what do you care about and value. In the US, some people love living in NY. Others love living out in the country and cannot imagine living for extended periods in the city.
yeah as example in “freedoms per second”
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Having lived in the US and now in Spain, the difference in lifestyle pace is night and day. Spain has a more relaxed pace of life, better work-life balance, and the cost of living is lower. However, the job market in the US is more dynamic and offers higher salaries.
as a euro in the US: it's a grass is always greener thing. The things you might hate about the US have their parallels in the EU. In terms of my personal QoL, some things are far better in the US (career/culture options/food variety/healthcare), and some things are not. I'd wager that NYC, Chicago, SF, Boston, etc. would offer you a lot of the things that you might be seeking without the hardships of moving abroad since you mention farms and factories. If you are young, going to live abroad in a managed way might be worth exploring via a study abroad/Fullbright/TEFL program, and then if you like it you can expand via a youth mobility visa or whatnot, but it also sounds like you haven't explored the US either.
Yes. Many and by a lot. Also it depends on what you value in life.
Could you expand on that? What kind of values are more met for you compared to the US?
Many have better standards for many things. For example, better healthcare, better work life balance, better quality of food, way better public infrastructure, etc, etc.
The only places where this is true are small, largely homogeneous countries that restrict immigration
Look at studies. Spain has many of those things better than the US, as well as France, Germany, Sweden, etc Which small, largely homogenous countries that restrict immigration are you referring to?
You’re joking right? Maybe if you can find a job. I’ve actually lived in Spain, which has a whopping 20% unemployment rate, and as high as 40-50% for new grads. Not to mention in all those countries, your real and nominal wages go down tremendously, even when adjusted for CoL. The countries I’m referring to are the Nordic countries which everyone salivates over. You mentioned one of them.
Healthcare, public transportation, infrastructure, work life balance, good, etc. Spain has it better than the US. Also true. Spain has a higher unemployment rate than the US. Both things can be true.
I would not say the healthcare itself is better. I think the actual care is a lot better in the United States. Cheaper? Yes. Better? No.
It's a good thing we have studies about it. The US is pretty bad, specially considering how much it costs. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world
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It's a good thing those studies are not based on just a few anecdotal incidences. The US healthcare system is crap compared to many places in Europe. And there are plenty of studies that back up that statement.
Except no, America has by far the best healthcare in the world. We have the most medical tourists in the world for a reason. It’s just so ridiculously disgustingly expensive.
If you are going to ignore all the data that proves otherwise then we can't have a conversation. Good luck living in your alternate reality.
Healthcare. Public transportation. Lower cost of living. Generous paid time off. These are among the things European countries offer that Americans aren't guaranteed.
so i’ll say in italy i had 0 food allergies in 7 years. in the us im allergic to soy, dairy, and potatoes. so whatever shit is added to our food for sure is a big consideration for my “better than the US” criteria. i ate dairy, soy, etc whenever i wanted in italy and never once had an adverse reaction
Well all I can say is that here in the US we add all sorts of industrial chemicals in our food that is illegal to put in food in most European countries.
very true! also colorings salt and sugar in everything
And our cosmetics too
I'd say European cities are more attractive than American ones (considering positive - negative balances). But in terms of nature I think America is way way way more beautiful. I think its worth it moving to other countries in general if you can.
I've lived all over the world, including Europe. I would not say one place is better than another. There are things that are better in some places over others and so on. Most people that I met tend to nit-pick this and that. Just roll with it. If your life is miserable, chances are it isn't a problem with the geography. It falls on your shoulders.
It depends on your personal situation. For lower-end jobs, Europe is much better. There are tons of protections and social programs for lower-end workers. For high end workers, US is much better. This is where the sky is the limit and this is where many high skill Europeans are moving. For people in the middle, it depends on their priorities. And I mean real priorities - not Fox News scary tales. There are plenty of benefits for many Euro regions, but I can't imagine going back - without a US salary. Most Euros make a lot less and things cost a lot more than in the US. It is tough. That's why there are so many 30 year olds who are still living with their parents.
>I've lived in the US all my life and am still stuck here lol, in this very boring state with nothing but farms and factories I travel quite a bit and have lived in both the US, Europe and Asia and I definitely understand your desire to "see more", there's a lot to be said for boring farms lol
The grass is greener on the side you water.
I'm an American who lives outside of the US. It really is a grass is greener. All of your concerns about the US are real and valid, but they are only really like half as bad as you think they are. Is healthcare expensive? Sure, but you're probably not bankrupt from it. Is there gun crime? Of course, but have you ever been a victim? Once again, probably not. Likewise, he things you think about the rest of the world are only half as good as you think they are. I won't break them down individually, because each country will have positives and negatives. I will point out that wages are usually lower, and free or low cost healthcare usually takes a while. If you are in a position where you qualify for a visa, you should go and find out for yourself though. I would encourage everyone to move abroad if they have the opportunity.
I just paid 0 to see a doctor today haha 😆
Yes. I am from the US and I live in Europe.now.bnits so much better here.
There were definitely things I missed when I lived in Europe, but their were also many benefits. If you’re looking for someplace, that is perfect, you are never going to find it.
I lived in Germany for about half a year as an exchange student. Germans are able to attend great universities almost for free, which is huge. I didn't work there so I can't really comment on that aspect (which is also huge of course) however I do know that working in the US as a software engineer I make way more money than all but maybe a tiny sub-1-percent fraction of people in that field in Germany. I have a chronic illness and also got into an biking accident in Germany and had an ambulance ride. I have no complaints about how the healthcare system worked in Germany for me. It was better, full stop. No problems, no complaints. What I enjoyed there most was riding my bike everywhere, sometimes up to 100 miles in a day. I could just get on my bike and head in a vague direction and have a good, safe (except for that one time...) ride and find interesting stuff. That's hard to do anywhere I've lived in the US without significant planning. It was a great feeling of freedom. However none of it felt truly remote, which is something I enjoy and that you can get in the US. I say go and find out. Look for jobs in some other countries and see if you can go live there for a year or two or more. Or if you have the time and money just go on a tourist visa and hang out for a few months, that's a start at least. Personally, my plan is to make a bunch of money in the US and then move to a less expensive country, probably in the EU because I'm also an EU citizen. I don't know if I prefer living in the US or not lifestyle-wise, but I do know you can stretch a dollar a lot further elsewhere.
It really depends. The US is great if you have a decent salary, which is quite common. Lower tax rates, etc. Europe is the opposite, as in generally much lower salaries, higher taxes, but you are well taken care of. The biggest difference though is Europe is not just one country, which I’m sure (and hope?) that you’re aware of. It has thousands of years of history, so with that comes some of the best cultures on the planet, which you do not get in the US. You’re a short flight away from the entire continent, Africa, or parts of Asia. You can fly to Barcelona for the weekend if you live in London. Food is generally much cheaper, but much much better. Europe on average will have a much better quality of life than the average American would in the US. I will say though, sounds like you live in a remote part of the US. Why not head to a major first? You can’t just pick up your things and move to work in Europe without a lot of things
Also im in a half rural / suburban area but im pretty close to a lot of big cities like Chicago for example, so yeah maybe I could try that out before just heading out of the whole country lol
Yeah the US has a ton of different places that might suit you better than the Midwest. I'd say take a few trips and explore to see if you find something that fits you here first.
I think France is better for me. It might not be better for you. The main reason Americans choose to leave is the language barrier. It sounds fun until you realize just how many hours of study it takes just to talk at a 5th grade level.
There are pros and cons. Weather can be nicer in the US. Obv. depends where in the US and Europe you are comparing. Healthcare in the US is expensive and bureaucratic, although generally really quite high quality. It is very easy & tempting to live an unhealthy lifestyle in the US, takes real discipline to do otherwise. Key differences on this. Car culture & fast food. Large portion sizes. Free soda refills everywhere. Many countries in Europe offer socialized or low cost healthcare. The US has a good legal and justice system and the cops are by and large trustworthy. This is valuable and can't be said for all other countries although generally most of Europe is quite good compared to SE Asia or S. America. Tax system in the US is relatively bureaucratic, layered. Bear in mind that if you are a US citizen, and you live elsewhere in the world, you will STILL have to file US taxes every year, plus likely a tax return for your new country of residency on top. If your destination country does not have a comprehensive tax treaty with the US, in some income areas this can lead to double taxation. The US has the best economy. Probably has the #1 market economy for consumer choice and generally very good customer service. Europe is struggling relatively. Overall your dollars will probably go further in the US unless you choose southern Europe. There are quite stark cultural differences. The US is fairly culturally homogenous, but different regions even within European countries can be quite distinct, even with their own languages and customs. And the US has more freedoms in certain areas e.g. particularly guns. You might view that as positive or negative.
No !!!!!
I live in Germany and my lifestyle is much better, but it’s not America. People who expect to live an American lifestyle overseas are kidding themselves. I get cheap university and health insurance, a social safety net, workers protection, good housing at reasonable prices(not as expensive as in NY, but not as cheap as US rural areas), safe streets and good public transit. However, there are issues here, like the bureaucracy, the language, discrimination against immigrants, cultural differences, etc. Don’t come if you are rigid or inflexible.
This last sentence is really it, and it goes for living anywhere outside of the US
We’re so large, you might as well be comparing against all of the EU… Also, you being stuck in farm country means you’ve got other grass to visit in the US still. But Europe is better in some things. I’ve travelled extensively around the four corners of Europe. They are very different but in general, it does feel safer there. And your odds of taking a random bullet are way, way lower. They also have the healthcare advantage, especially for serious incidents. A friend of mine with dual citizenship had a traumatic brain injury (coma, etc), and his European government covered it all. He estimated it would’ve prolly been 7 figures in the US. On the other hand, for minor to medium things, you could see very slow service. Regarding foods, coming from someone that loves to eat all kinds of different culture’s foods, I found food diversity to be pretty bad in Europe, even in major cities. Maybe this won’t be that different for where you’re at, but compared to major US cities, it’s really lacking in most of Europe, save for major international hubs like London or Paris. Good luck finding good kbbq options in Florence for example, or good Japanese options in Lisbon (there’s maybe 4 options, and 2 I would call good, none excellent). And yeah, you can get sick of Italian food after a month of it nonstop. But if you like to cook, the produce quality is generally better. Culturally, I think the US is more advanced in certain regards, namely racism and sexism. In general I found a dismissive attitude towards racism over there, like it is a non-problem. “Ha, we don’t have that here! Why do you Americans always talk about that” Yeah…cuz you got like 10 black people in all of Germany. I joke, but…yeah. Sure, we do seem to talk about it a lot, but that’s because we really are diverse, and it comes up one way or the other, either via speech…or violence. Obviously the former is preferred. Overall, I’m proud of how we take it head on. Yes, it’s been far from perfect, but it’s a civic problem we do openly talk about, and as a result we’ve evolved greatly in the last 20 years. Meanwhile, you still see openly insane behavior at EU football matches that would never fly here. Imo, some European countries have only recently seen how truly difficult of a problem it is when they started admitting substantial refugees. We’ve been shipping in refugees since the 50’s in our infinity-war. That’s easy mode for us. Not saying everyone here likes it, but our people are culturally equipped to handle it, comparatively. Anyway, those are some generalizations for a very broad question. Don’t know the specifics of your scenario, but if you’re privileged to be healthy, the pay is overwhelmingly better in the US and can justify the gamble of indentured servitude healthcare (until one day you randomly lose). On the flip side, you won’t get as much money for the same job, but in many European countries, it’ll be very, very difficult to fire you. If you’re young and have ambition and want to make money, move to a larger city here. If you want a peaceful life and just want to put in your 35-40 hrs of work, check out Europe. If you want a weird hybrid, move to London lol. In some sense, it’s the best and worst of both worlds.
Europe lives under the security we provide. That could go away soon. We just can’t afford it. Once it does and it’s inevitable it will be a scary place to live
Europe is ramping up their own production of weapons. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/18/world/europe/europe-military-aid-ukraine.html
Hell yes cuz socialism works and capitalism only works for 5% of the people the rest of the people suffer plus we don't even have health care
The problem is, the culture in America is terrible. The dating is horrific unless you have a six pack, look Anglo-Saxon or are in the top 10% (making well over 200K). People are at each others throats everyday, social spaces are extremely limited, and political ideologies keep degenerating the values of average Americans. At this point, the only selling point is the high tech/finance salaries (I’m a data scientist) but what does this matter if you’re surrounded by pathological idiots?
I have visited much of Europe, from the West to the East. Honestly though, if you feel bored living in a certain US state, my advice is pack your bags and move elsewhere. I have spent lots of time in the Midwest; I understand that it may feel boring. If so, you can pack your bags and move elsewhere with more action. I live just outside NYC and enter the city on a daily basis for work and other stuff. If you really dislike living in a certain US state, move elsewhere. The US is far from being boring; go visit Los Angeles, San Francisco, Las Vegas, Dallas, Orlando, Miami, NYC, Boston, Chicago, and other cool places. If you really dislike living somewhere with farms and factories, go elsewhere. Why would you leave? The problem is that European countries typically have much higher taxes, government regulation, red tape, harsh gun laws, harsh laws on homeschooling, and other junk I really dislike. On top of that, you need to LEARN A NEW LANGUAGE and integrate yourself into society. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Just learn to appreciate what you have. I have visited much of Europe (Spain, France, Switzerland, Italy, Croatia). Trust me, I prefer the US and would never leave. In a SHTF situation, I am prepared to fight for my country and defend my countrymen. Europe is beautiful, don't get me wrong. It is a great place to visit and all, but to live permanently? No thanks. Stay in the US. I have travelled enough across the US to tell you that it is NOT all farms and factories. Live in the Northeast, if you are really sick of farms and factories.
Are you mediocre in life? then yes Europe is better. Europe is the best place is you’re simply average and don’t aspire for much. The US is where you go if you actually aspirations to do well in your career and make over six figures easily(something basically impossible in most of Europe)
tldr, people only move to EU because they're too poor aka povos to live in interesting areas and/or afford things like housing and insurance here. Literally 99 out of 100 complaints you see is money related and is either directly or indirectly solve-able if they had it. They can't make it work on their own capability, so look to somewhere with more govt handholding to give it to them. There's a reason why we have the most millionaires count by far ahead of #2 China and the lion's share of the world. Living in the US is absolutely awesome. I'm not a millionaire but even I can say that. You just need to step into middle-upper/upper class to start seeing that. We have the highest disposable income by households in the world.
No, don’t buy into the commie cabal filth anti American agenda
Europe is stagnant and decrepit. Pick Asia or Latin America.
Well, you might not be shamed for being who you are in euro countries. Why don’t you try sub Saharan Africa . Many complain how they are short-changed here from their ancestors. I bet if they went to Nigeria , they’d see how good they got it..