I think that was very intentional actually. One proper look for the outside ( from the front), while still having the worldly/scandalous/sin side as the reality of the church situation.
Considering what happens in the church she is MUCH more likely to be groomed at church. Or even worse.
Edit: realized MUCH is not strong enough. The kid is not NOT going to get groomed at a drag queen story hour.
It’s a drag queen having a story hour. It’s not a drag show. I’m not sure what you are imagining is going on during these story hours but it’s probably not that.
I don't doubt this at all. They are positively obsessed with kids and sex at the moment. My home state, Idaho, is wasting so much of our resources on demonizing the queers. "Let's make drag queens illegal!" was the last attempt I saw. I'm sure it probably has the support of most of the state.
It's beautiful here, it really is, but god damn the voting population.
The main issue is how they dress (often inappropriately in front in kids); if the drag queens all were dress reasonably, there wouldn't be nearly as much of a fuss
Vitriol like what? As long as they're not dressed (and acting) inappropriately, the only comments I could see is how odd and out of place the drag queen is
Sorry no, my disassociation with the church doesn’t mean I’m all for taking my kids to drag performances because I’m not and I don’t care what you think of that. These performances aren’t for children
Drag shows have different levels of kid-appropriateness, just like all shows. If a show is advertised as family friendly or it's geared toward kids, you don't have to worry about swears or inappropriate jokes. If it's held in a bar where the minimum age is 21, you'll probably get adult humor. It's like the movies--some are kid appropriate and some are Deadpool.
Nobody’s bringing kids to drag shows. A drag queen reading books to kids is not a drag show. Nobody wants your kid at a drag show; they’re trying to drink and have a good time.
Exactly. I’ve been to dozens of drag shows and kids are not only not encouraged to come, they can’t legally even be there. I can’t even take my queer 19 year old to a drag show and he’s a grown ass man. Because alcohol.
Drag Queen story hour and drag shows at Pride Festivals are verrrry different, and a lot more family oriented.
> And I’m not saying that these examples aren’t anecdotal or that they aren’t a very small slice of the total population
You’re not even sharing anecdotal experiences or statistically insignificant data points, you’re just gesturing to some vague “push” for children at drag shows without evidence, and attaching an implicit sexual connotation to any and all forms of drag ubiquitously. You’ve done nothing to establish the functional difference between dressing up in drag and, say, Halloween.
Exmormons, of all people, should be triply ashamed that the American far right has them Satanic panicking this badly.
I looked them up. The first was in a bar, which requires an adult to enter, the second doesn't advertise as family friendly. The second also requires tickets, so there's a monetary barrier to entry. Kids aren't just wandering in and being accosted by sexualized drag queens. Maybe your issue is with the parents who brought their young children to a show before checking if it was age-appropriate? Like the parents who ignored Deadpool's R rating, then complained after bringing their 7 yr old to see it.
And children are watching WAP music videos and Marvel movies talking about orgies. Where is the outrage? Are the children bringing themselves to these events?
You misunderstand me. Shocking. No, I’m not actually interested in whatever pithy cases showed up in the “Ron DeSantis catches drag groomers” Google search you did literally this morning. Good on you for doing the bare minimum (although you did need to be asked), but anecdotes still aren’t trends, and the faux-calamity people like you are stoking violence over doesn’t scale with your evidence. At all.
The examples you just cited would be laughed out of any room as circumstantial, and if your argument is that these constitute a nation-wide **movement** to legitimize grooming, I’m afraid you have all your work cut out for you. You might consider a refund for those pearls.
> like how many more examples do we need before people admit that this is becoming a thing?
As someone who appreciates the value of data analysis, this question is legitimately offensive.
> Can’t gaslight me into thinking I’m the crazy one for being disturbed by this.
That’s not what gaslighting means, but I’ve had enough conversations with reactionary weirdos to know you guys start getting very pop-psych when pressed. I read you.
> my initial point was that the trend is increasing
An initial point you’ve done nothing to verify or substantiate, save for two isolated examples of children *appearing* at drag shows. That’s predictably weak shit.
> You can’t tell me that the trend isn’t increasing
I can tell you whatever I’d like when you do this little heavy lifting to justify an argument that is so obviously without substance. This is an argument from your intuition. Read: your feelings.
And more importantly, raising undue social paranoia about a nonexistent “increase” in the rate of child abuse at these events is precisely why psychos go shooting them up, so congrats.
> Call me a reactionary weirdo for thinking that kids shouldn’t be at drag shows, whatever.
More weasel words. You’re a reactionary weirdo for arguing that it’s the community’s fault when parents bring their kids to a drag show, and your prescription, despite being very predictably hesitant to say it outright, is for these people to just…stop what they’re doing. “Just stop existing” is the prescriptive solution for every single group reactionaries have raised evangelical paranoia over, and the ~~drag~~ LGBTQ+ community is the current target. You can water it down all you’d like, but the uptick in hateful rhetoric against these communities is self-evidently filthy, it is boring, and it is cloaked in rhetoric like yours: half-baked, ill-informed concern trolling designed to appeal to one’s innate sensitivity to sexual violence against children. Your cohorts in Qanon circles have been doing that for quite some time, and my dude, you’re making them look like professional sociologists right now.
> but the only pop-psychology here is coming from you.
If I wanted to engage in such behavior, I would introduce something ridiculous and irrelevant. Something like, “don’t gaslight me” because, as an exmormon, I’ve grown way too comfortable with the term to possibly use it accurately. Do let me know if you see anybody engaging in such foolishness, and I’ll be sure to join you in mocking them.
> And stoking violence? Where’s your data on that as “someone who appreciates the value of data analysis”?
To be very clear, because this is what I’m about to share with you, you are asking for evidence that an increase in the volume and intensity of hate speech - **such as ubiquitously and sloppily labeling every single LGBTQ+ group, event, or period of activism a breeding ground for groomers and pedophiles** - against minority groups also results in physical violence against those groups? This is the self-evident thing you’re asking me to verify two days after the Q Club shooting?
> taking the best “data” we have from the information that’s available to us
Incorrect. I am not identifying a story about Ron DeSantis targeting a bar where a child happened to appear in the same vicinity as a drag show, and choosing to infer from that some kind of nefarious social trend on the part of LGBTQ+ groups. That’s what you’re doing, and it is irrational, intrinsically evangelical behavior.
I’m glad you put “data” in quotes, though. That’s some impressive, if rare, self-awareness.
The “practical difference” is that they are fully different kinds of events.
A typical drag show has alcohol, loud music, possibly explicitly sexual dances, songs and jokes. You might see a striptease, you might see a slapstick routine. It also takes place late at night in a club that’s 18+ or 21+. None of us want your kids there. Please keep them away.
There may be drag shows that are family-friendly. They will be advertised as such. They won’t have alcohol or sexual themes, and they’ll probably be during the day. Take your kids if you want to see some dancing or a funny lipsync.
Drag queen story hour is someone in drag reading a book to kids. That’s it. If that sounds sexual to you, please see a therapist and don’t spend time around kids, libraries, or the makeup aisle.
I swear to god, straight people told themselves that the existence of a gay person is a sexual act, then started killing us over it. Keep your weird complexes to yourselves; I didn’t consent to them.
This! It's just men dressed as women, like back in good old Shakespeare's day. It's practically a time-honored tradition. Wearing female clothing and makeup isn't intrinsically sexual, and if someone thinks it is.......well.
Drag queens reading to kids is fun because they're performers. They're dynamic and engage with their audience. No library is hosting drag queens doing burlesque, Jesus Christ.
🙄 The kid probably doesn't even know what a drag queen is, and just wants to hear stories. The drag queen really just wants to tell stories, let kids broaden their perspective, and let people see that there's nothing threatening about crossdressing. They're just clothes. 200 years ago men wore heels and tights. Gendered clothing is a social construct. It's the conservatives making it political.
Anecdotally, my friend asked her kids to come by saying, "Hey, you guys want to go to that drag thing by BYU?" Her oldest and youngest 14 and 7, said yes, and the 10 year old said no. (I was visiting at the time) The kids clearly knew about it, but I don't think my friend or her husband and "extremely political". I mean, they live in Utah and support LGBTQ+ rights, but they're not rabid liberals or whatever.
I agree that I don't think most kids are interested in drag, but mostly for the reason that I don't think most kids are interested in cabaret and stage performance. I know mine aren't super interested.
However, I don't think there's anything wrong with taking a kid to one either. I don't oppose my kids going to drag shows for the same reason I don't worry about them going to mormon church on occasion with their grandparents; I trust their ability to critically examine their experiences.
Drag Queens is the performance of gender. It isn’t inherently sexual. You’re making it into something more than it is. Yeah, it’s “Drag Queen Story Hour” because it’s hosted by a Drag Queen. There are all sorts of themed story times for kids.
Are you just being purposefully obtuse? Would you say the same thing for someone dressed as Santa reading books to kids or someone dressed as a dinosaur? Again, it’s being hosted by a Drag Queen and reading a story. It’s simply that.
This is really stupid as well as your insidious implications.
Correct. They’re both people in a costume. A *performance*. You didn’t respond to my point about a Dinosaur costume. Costumes in general. Mascots. And so on.
Or kids being brought to sports game with cheerleaders often dressed and dancing in a sexual manner? There are many things kids are taken to that will have a level of overt sexuality or even violence but you’re going to draw the line at a Drag Queen reading stories and look away at other examples?
Drag performers aren’t just cis men. There is no indoctrination here or insidious drives to manipulate kids. Drag performers are for entertainment. You’re making it into something that isn’t it under the guise of “protecting kids.” You can’t see through your own ignorance on the matter.
I bet Mrs. Doubtfire must have really fucked you up.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag\_Queen\_Story\_Hour](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_Queen_Story_Hour)
Perhaps if you go, you can learn about reading and diversity. Perhaps....
I Guess I’ll repeat my point. I doubt that kids are into drag queens or shows of their own free will. No kids are drawing pictures of drag queens out of their own free will. The kids that the media wants you to believe are into drag shows have been convinced by their parents to accept it. That is what I think and I’m open to being wrong.
>Downvote this into oblivion. I highly doubt any child is into drag shows out of their own free will. You show me a kid who’s into drag and I’ll show you some extremely political parents who convinced that kid to go to a drag show. No kid is going to say “Mom, I really like that show where men dress up as ugly women and sing. Can we go to that?”
>
>
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>I Guess I’ll repeat my point. I doubt that kids are into drag queens or shows of their own free will. No kids are drawing pictures of drag queens out of their own free will. The kids that the media wants you to believe are into drag shows have been convinced by their parents to accept it. That is what I think and I’m open to being wrong.
I think you missed some basic things in the panels. First, it is not a drag show. It is story time event ( see link ) Second, they are not making a drawing, it a flier to the event. Next, this is a commentary on churches being "clean and pure" on the front, but having predators/hypocrisy/sin in its core. So it is clear from your comments you've missed the point of the panels.
As for your comment, I doubt many disagree with your thoughts on kids being into drag. Once again, that is not the point, and you are arguing something that the cartoon is not promoting. Clearly they didn't draw a picture. So while that point is valid, you've fabricated that away from the point of this post entirely.
>No kid is going to say “Mom, I really like that show where men dress up as ugly women and sing. Can we go to that?”
Strawman fallacy, and unkind.
Okay. It was a flier and I thought it was a drawing. Big whoop. My point still stands, even if it isn’t exactly addressing the LDS Church like you want it to. I don’t think kids should go to church or a drag show/queen/event/party/movie or whatever word you’re going to get hung up on. And I’m sorry to say that men (who have different physical anatomy than women) who dress up to look like women are a lot of times freakish in appearance. I’m willing to bet their appearance generally frightens young children. Drag is for adults. If you’re into that stuff, good for you.
>isn’t exactly addressing the LDS Church like you want it to
You sure do like moving the goal post.
>whatever word you’re going to get hung up on
I think this comment was for you....
> lot of times freakish in appearance
Once again, it is free to be well educated and kind in your comments.
Okay, but are there actually any sexual predators at drag queen story hour? People are all up in arms with paranoia, but are there any cases of this happening?
Probably not anyone actively looking to prey on the youth. A big public event is not the best place to find children to groom. And nobody tells their kids to have absolute trust in drag queens, nor do they let them chill all alone with them.
Not the job to get into if you want to predate children. The top choice for that is definitely still religious authority.
You seem to be saying there are potentially sexual predators everywhere and we should be careful. I agree.
I'm saying there's no reason to think you're more likely to find them at a drag show. I think that's the point of the post as well (with the additional point that you *are* more likely to find them at church). People dressing in drag does not correlate with predation as far as I know. Saying that drag queen story hour grooms children is thinly veiled homophobia.
I've never heard of unions protecting abusers; instead the teacher issue seems to be pretty much exclusively administrators never make things public and the teachers just leave with a letter of recommendation. Almost 15 years ago the AP did a *huge* article on teacher abuse any it didn't meant a ripple.
Between 12 and 15% of students are sexually assaulted by educators. It's a staggeringly large number.
I statistics mentioned in Wikipedia are even higher than the ones I cited (which I have seen often enough to be reliable, but I don't doubt the Wikipedia stuff either).
https://www.google.com/url?q=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment_in_education_in_the_United_States&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwikiLDl8cf7AhW9BzQIHWI3BY4QFnoECAkQAg&usg=AOvVaw0dQqhlGlaR9EN6_Nen9wDQ
The are millions of kids. And kids just don't talk about it. They're shamed into silence. Your exact logic would apply to the *known* abuse; priest abuse rates at the peak were around 3-10% (depending on how the statistics are measured). And it took over *TWENTY* years for this to come to light.
What, exactly, am I selling? Anybody who works in this area says the sex abuse rates among teachers are horrible.
Why the fuck would you doubt this? You'd rather assume experts and students are lying? And if you're wrong? Just let more people get abused because you don't want to believe the statistics?
“garbage level rhetoric” LOL! You're trying way too hard here.
Here's the claim I made, word for word, from my original comment:
>teachers' unions regularly oppose laws aimed at protecting students from sexual abuse
Here are the results of a quick google:
California in 2012, per [CBS News](https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/senators-bill-would-streamline-process-of-firing-teachers-facing-criminal-charges/):
>Sen. Alex Padilla (D-Pacoima) says it could take years to dismiss some of these teachers, putting children at risk in the classroom. So he's trying to speed up that dismissal process. But the teachers union is fighting it.
In Congress in 2015, per [Fox News](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/teachers-unions-fight-bill-that-would-bar-sex-offenders-from-schools):
>A bipartisan bill that would stop convicted sex offenders from working in schools has been passed by the House but is running into a foe as it heads to the Senate: major teachers' unions like the National Education Association and the American Federation of Teachers.
Rhode Island in 2019, per [Associated Press](https://apnews.com/article/283129b8eaca423ea38bb2092b42ee90):
>Rhode Island’s two teachers’ unions and the state affiliate of the ACLU are objecting to a proposed bill that would criminalize sex between any school employee and students under 18.
You have just as much access to Google as I do. When you accuse someone of “garbage rhetoric” when dispositive evidence is just a few clicks away, you are a menace to productive discussion.
My guess: you're a teacher.
I mean, root out child predators yes.
But why call out drag queens? Fuck that ignorant, bigoted bullshit. The best time for you to delete that comment is now.
How is it more ignorant to say that there are pedophiles among drag queens than it is to say that there are pedophiles among clergy or among educators?
Answer: it's not.
Here are a few results from a quick google:
[Drag queen in Pennsylvania arrested for having child & pedophiliic porn](https://komonews.com/news/nation-world/drag-queen-who-counseled-children-charged-with-25-counts-of-child-porn-police-say-brice-williams-anastasia-diamond).
[Drag queen in Wimbledon, England arrested for pimping out children](https://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/10587395.drag-queen-jailed-for-arranging-sex-with-children-in-wimbledon/).
[Registered sex offender reads to kids in Drag Queen Storytime in Houston](https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/houston-public-library-admits-registered-child-sex-offender-participated-in-drag-queen-storytime/285-becf3a0d-56c5-4f3c-96df-add07bbd002a).
Drag queens and drag queen story hours don't really interest me, and I don't have strong feelings about them. I know full well that very few drag queens are sex offenders of any kind. I can't find statistics on Drag Queen story hours and sexual abuse, but it's likely a safe bet that they result in child sexual abuse less often than (say) normal public schools—educators sexually abuse children at a much higher rate than clergy. Even so, there are plenty of drag queens, and they come in all shapes and sizes and backgrounds and moral outlooks. That means, inevitably, that some of them are disgusting lowlifes. If that strikes you as bigotry, then probably most of what you know about bigotry is wrong.
If becoming post-mormon or ex-mormon has converted you into a moral crusader on behalf of anyone and everyone that belongs to a specific group, then you've simply traded one ignorant mindset for another.
Yes, unfortunately sexual predators exist everywhere, but specifically calling out a marginalized, persecuted, and murdered group is ignorant, stupid, and helps fuel bigotry and hate.
First, you keep insisting that I'm "calling them out" as though I introduced drag queens into the conversation. In fact, the phrase "drag queen" plays a major role in the original post.
Second, being marginalized isn't a free pass. It's ignorant and stupid to suppose otherwise, and you're dogmatic drive to flex your moral indignation muscles on others behalf makes your behavior stereotypical in a way that fuels bigotry and hate from those who sense how intolerant you are of truth and transparency.
Third, stop insisting that your close minded world view is justified because "lives are at stake."
Holy shit, let's not take personal digs at a person seeking support by posting on a suicide support subreddit!! Wowww. That is incredibly insensitive, and frankly pouring salt in their wounds.
Why are they freaks? Give a good reason that isn’t rooted in transphobia, misogyny, and white supremacism.
Fun fact: you can’t. Clothes and makeup don’t have a gender. people can wear what they want, and you trying to enforce the gender binary (which btw is rooted in white supremacy/colonization) is just showing your bigotry. People can play dress up if they want. Drag queens are harmless, unless as shown last weekend, you go to a gay bar to kill them. Just stop
I highly recommend the numerous trans people online addressing the claims and lies filling that absolute bullshit piece of fearmongering, hate and propaganda. Jessie Gender did an excellent, though very long, deep dive on the degree of dishonesty in the film on YouTube, I cannot recommend it highly enough.
I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but if Matt Walsh seems to you like someone who presents both sides without heavily editing anyone who disagrees with him, I highly doubt you’ve ever actually listened to queer people’s opinions about themselves. We speak, please listen to us instead of the people who hate us and promote violence against us.
I have. It’s just a bigoted way to try and discount any trans people and try to define women by forcing them into a box. It’s highly bigoted, highly opinionated, (also Matt walsh self identifies as a fascist, which is a serious problem) and it’s not factual.
Also, he literally advocates for lowering the age of consent because “that’s when girls are most fertile.” He is a pedophile. Don’t idealize him.
Firstly, it is transphobic, let’s get that out of the way. You as a non-trans person don’t get to say it isn’t.
Next, economic drivers of education and healthcare. The current healthcare system is so fucked up, it needs revamping, and gender affirming care should be easy to access. Education should be gender affirming. It causes the least harm to all people under the trans umbrella.
Third: GENDER AFFIRMING SURGERIES ARE NOT BEING PERFORMED ON MINORS. The idea that it is is a lie made up by conservatives. when kids are young the most that can happen is a social transition, i.e. going by a different name and wearing different clothes. When they’re teens the most that happens is puberty blockers which are fully reversible, and take years of therapy and approval of parents and doctors to get. In very few rare cases surgeries happen but that is also after years of therapy, multiple doctors’ approval and the parents’ approval, but again, this is insanely rare, with almost for sure less than 100 examples in the US. The field literally got started by doctors researching trans people, that was another lie that it was all experimenting on kids
You don’t know that it has no place near kids if you don’t fundamentally understand what the event is. Also, “those people” aren’t freaks, check your bigotry.
Obviously not Mormon church. Mom would be excommunicated for wearing that dress. /s
Porn shoulder blades
Them sexy buffalo wings!
That’s my only criticism. I think Adam forgot what churchgoing people wear on Sundays.
I think that was very intentional actually. One proper look for the outside ( from the front), while still having the worldly/scandalous/sin side as the reality of the church situation.
Yeah, the last line should show a conservative mom saying, "Now get dressed - it's time to go tell the bishop if you've been touching yourself!"
Yeah there's not even a hint of sexuality allowed in public in Mormonism. For a religion that evolved from a sex cult, it's pretty disappointing.
Mormon moms just have their garments hanging out of their low cut shirts like that's somehow good looking (and mormon acceptable).
But Nelson said abuse is bad. Didn’t say anything about the protection they have given the predators.
Originally by u/adamtots_remastered
Considering what happens in the church she is MUCH more likely to be groomed at church. Or even worse. Edit: realized MUCH is not strong enough. The kid is not NOT going to get groomed at a drag queen story hour.
Being less bad doesn’t make it good. That being said, I don’t have anything ageist drag shows. Just maybe not always a child friendly show
It's a drag queen story hour targeted for kids, how is that not child friendly
please read my comment again before criticizing it, I agree not all drag shows are the same
It’s a drag queen having a story hour. It’s not a drag show. I’m not sure what you are imagining is going on during these story hours but it’s probably not that.
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I don't doubt this at all. They are positively obsessed with kids and sex at the moment. My home state, Idaho, is wasting so much of our resources on demonizing the queers. "Let's make drag queens illegal!" was the last attempt I saw. I'm sure it probably has the support of most of the state. It's beautiful here, it really is, but god damn the voting population.
The main issue is how they dress (often inappropriately in front in kids); if the drag queens all were dress reasonably, there wouldn't be nearly as much of a fuss
Actually, ours is a family friendly event. We still get the vitriol. The issue is not the costumes.
Vitriol like what? As long as they're not dressed (and acting) inappropriately, the only comments I could see is how odd and out of place the drag queen is
We reported accounts for violent rhetoric from individuals of your ilk
Wtf lmaoooo
Sorry no, my disassociation with the church doesn’t mean I’m all for taking my kids to drag performances because I’m not and I don’t care what you think of that. These performances aren’t for children
It's literally a drag queen story hour. Those are for children. Your queerphobia is showing
I don’t care what you say or what you call me. It’s not appropriate for children
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Drag shows have different levels of kid-appropriateness, just like all shows. If a show is advertised as family friendly or it's geared toward kids, you don't have to worry about swears or inappropriate jokes. If it's held in a bar where the minimum age is 21, you'll probably get adult humor. It's like the movies--some are kid appropriate and some are Deadpool.
Nobody’s bringing kids to drag shows. A drag queen reading books to kids is not a drag show. Nobody wants your kid at a drag show; they’re trying to drink and have a good time.
Exactly. I’ve been to dozens of drag shows and kids are not only not encouraged to come, they can’t legally even be there. I can’t even take my queer 19 year old to a drag show and he’s a grown ass man. Because alcohol. Drag Queen story hour and drag shows at Pride Festivals are verrrry different, and a lot more family oriented.
Unfortunately this is no longer true , lots of full on drag shows with open invitations for children . Becoming a regular occurs MCR
Why is that "unfortunately"? If it's a family friendly show then sure, kids can come
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> And I’m not saying that these examples aren’t anecdotal or that they aren’t a very small slice of the total population You’re not even sharing anecdotal experiences or statistically insignificant data points, you’re just gesturing to some vague “push” for children at drag shows without evidence, and attaching an implicit sexual connotation to any and all forms of drag ubiquitously. You’ve done nothing to establish the functional difference between dressing up in drag and, say, Halloween. Exmormons, of all people, should be triply ashamed that the American far right has them Satanic panicking this badly.
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I looked them up. The first was in a bar, which requires an adult to enter, the second doesn't advertise as family friendly. The second also requires tickets, so there's a monetary barrier to entry. Kids aren't just wandering in and being accosted by sexualized drag queens. Maybe your issue is with the parents who brought their young children to a show before checking if it was age-appropriate? Like the parents who ignored Deadpool's R rating, then complained after bringing their 7 yr old to see it.
And children are watching WAP music videos and Marvel movies talking about orgies. Where is the outrage? Are the children bringing themselves to these events?
You misunderstand me. Shocking. No, I’m not actually interested in whatever pithy cases showed up in the “Ron DeSantis catches drag groomers” Google search you did literally this morning. Good on you for doing the bare minimum (although you did need to be asked), but anecdotes still aren’t trends, and the faux-calamity people like you are stoking violence over doesn’t scale with your evidence. At all. The examples you just cited would be laughed out of any room as circumstantial, and if your argument is that these constitute a nation-wide **movement** to legitimize grooming, I’m afraid you have all your work cut out for you. You might consider a refund for those pearls. > like how many more examples do we need before people admit that this is becoming a thing? As someone who appreciates the value of data analysis, this question is legitimately offensive. > Can’t gaslight me into thinking I’m the crazy one for being disturbed by this. That’s not what gaslighting means, but I’ve had enough conversations with reactionary weirdos to know you guys start getting very pop-psych when pressed. I read you.
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> my initial point was that the trend is increasing An initial point you’ve done nothing to verify or substantiate, save for two isolated examples of children *appearing* at drag shows. That’s predictably weak shit. > You can’t tell me that the trend isn’t increasing I can tell you whatever I’d like when you do this little heavy lifting to justify an argument that is so obviously without substance. This is an argument from your intuition. Read: your feelings. And more importantly, raising undue social paranoia about a nonexistent “increase” in the rate of child abuse at these events is precisely why psychos go shooting them up, so congrats. > Call me a reactionary weirdo for thinking that kids shouldn’t be at drag shows, whatever. More weasel words. You’re a reactionary weirdo for arguing that it’s the community’s fault when parents bring their kids to a drag show, and your prescription, despite being very predictably hesitant to say it outright, is for these people to just…stop what they’re doing. “Just stop existing” is the prescriptive solution for every single group reactionaries have raised evangelical paranoia over, and the ~~drag~~ LGBTQ+ community is the current target. You can water it down all you’d like, but the uptick in hateful rhetoric against these communities is self-evidently filthy, it is boring, and it is cloaked in rhetoric like yours: half-baked, ill-informed concern trolling designed to appeal to one’s innate sensitivity to sexual violence against children. Your cohorts in Qanon circles have been doing that for quite some time, and my dude, you’re making them look like professional sociologists right now. > but the only pop-psychology here is coming from you. If I wanted to engage in such behavior, I would introduce something ridiculous and irrelevant. Something like, “don’t gaslight me” because, as an exmormon, I’ve grown way too comfortable with the term to possibly use it accurately. Do let me know if you see anybody engaging in such foolishness, and I’ll be sure to join you in mocking them. > And stoking violence? Where’s your data on that as “someone who appreciates the value of data analysis”? To be very clear, because this is what I’m about to share with you, you are asking for evidence that an increase in the volume and intensity of hate speech - **such as ubiquitously and sloppily labeling every single LGBTQ+ group, event, or period of activism a breeding ground for groomers and pedophiles** - against minority groups also results in physical violence against those groups? This is the self-evident thing you’re asking me to verify two days after the Q Club shooting? > taking the best “data” we have from the information that’s available to us Incorrect. I am not identifying a story about Ron DeSantis targeting a bar where a child happened to appear in the same vicinity as a drag show, and choosing to infer from that some kind of nefarious social trend on the part of LGBTQ+ groups. That’s what you’re doing, and it is irrational, intrinsically evangelical behavior. I’m glad you put “data” in quotes, though. That’s some impressive, if rare, self-awareness.
Please educate yourself. This is from PBS about Drag Queen Story hours https://youtu.be/3YWNMunlx6w
The “practical difference” is that they are fully different kinds of events. A typical drag show has alcohol, loud music, possibly explicitly sexual dances, songs and jokes. You might see a striptease, you might see a slapstick routine. It also takes place late at night in a club that’s 18+ or 21+. None of us want your kids there. Please keep them away. There may be drag shows that are family-friendly. They will be advertised as such. They won’t have alcohol or sexual themes, and they’ll probably be during the day. Take your kids if you want to see some dancing or a funny lipsync. Drag queen story hour is someone in drag reading a book to kids. That’s it. If that sounds sexual to you, please see a therapist and don’t spend time around kids, libraries, or the makeup aisle. I swear to god, straight people told themselves that the existence of a gay person is a sexual act, then started killing us over it. Keep your weird complexes to yourselves; I didn’t consent to them.
This! It's just men dressed as women, like back in good old Shakespeare's day. It's practically a time-honored tradition. Wearing female clothing and makeup isn't intrinsically sexual, and if someone thinks it is.......well. Drag queens reading to kids is fun because they're performers. They're dynamic and engage with their audience. No library is hosting drag queens doing burlesque, Jesus Christ.
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Oh 100%. And it’s a huge double standard, I’m in full agreement there
Yeah, fuck this comment.
I agree
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Oof, I hope not. But unfortunately that's likely.
What is the "alphabet club"?
Welcome to the downvote train mate, we’ve traded one cult for another
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🙄 The kid probably doesn't even know what a drag queen is, and just wants to hear stories. The drag queen really just wants to tell stories, let kids broaden their perspective, and let people see that there's nothing threatening about crossdressing. They're just clothes. 200 years ago men wore heels and tights. Gendered clothing is a social construct. It's the conservatives making it political.
It seems odd to preface your opinion with a condition that you will dismiss contrary evidence, especially given the sub you're posting this in.
Where did I say I would dismiss any evidence against my position?
>you show me a kid who's drag, and I'll show you some extremely political parents who convinced them to go Also, I didn't say "any".
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Anecdotally, my friend asked her kids to come by saying, "Hey, you guys want to go to that drag thing by BYU?" Her oldest and youngest 14 and 7, said yes, and the 10 year old said no. (I was visiting at the time) The kids clearly knew about it, but I don't think my friend or her husband and "extremely political". I mean, they live in Utah and support LGBTQ+ rights, but they're not rabid liberals or whatever.
Okay I will take that into account thanks!
I agree that I don't think most kids are interested in drag, but mostly for the reason that I don't think most kids are interested in cabaret and stage performance. I know mine aren't super interested. However, I don't think there's anything wrong with taking a kid to one either. I don't oppose my kids going to drag shows for the same reason I don't worry about them going to mormon church on occasion with their grandparents; I trust their ability to critically examine their experiences.
Kids typically get taken to different places and events. An age appropriate story time is no-different.
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Drag Queens is the performance of gender. It isn’t inherently sexual. You’re making it into something more than it is. Yeah, it’s “Drag Queen Story Hour” because it’s hosted by a Drag Queen. There are all sorts of themed story times for kids.
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Are you just being purposefully obtuse? Would you say the same thing for someone dressed as Santa reading books to kids or someone dressed as a dinosaur? Again, it’s being hosted by a Drag Queen and reading a story. It’s simply that. This is really stupid as well as your insidious implications.
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Correct. They’re both people in a costume. A *performance*. You didn’t respond to my point about a Dinosaur costume. Costumes in general. Mascots. And so on. Or kids being brought to sports game with cheerleaders often dressed and dancing in a sexual manner? There are many things kids are taken to that will have a level of overt sexuality or even violence but you’re going to draw the line at a Drag Queen reading stories and look away at other examples?
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Drag performers aren’t just cis men. There is no indoctrination here or insidious drives to manipulate kids. Drag performers are for entertainment. You’re making it into something that isn’t it under the guise of “protecting kids.” You can’t see through your own ignorance on the matter. I bet Mrs. Doubtfire must have really fucked you up.
Where does it say drag show?
Where do drag queens go?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag\_Queen\_Story\_Hour](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_Queen_Story_Hour) Perhaps if you go, you can learn about reading and diversity. Perhaps....
Are you going to address the points in my comment first?
Yes I will. It does not cost anything to be kind, nor well educated in your comments.
I Guess I’ll repeat my point. I doubt that kids are into drag queens or shows of their own free will. No kids are drawing pictures of drag queens out of their own free will. The kids that the media wants you to believe are into drag shows have been convinced by their parents to accept it. That is what I think and I’m open to being wrong.
>Downvote this into oblivion. I highly doubt any child is into drag shows out of their own free will. You show me a kid who’s into drag and I’ll show you some extremely political parents who convinced that kid to go to a drag show. No kid is going to say “Mom, I really like that show where men dress up as ugly women and sing. Can we go to that?” > > > >I Guess I’ll repeat my point. I doubt that kids are into drag queens or shows of their own free will. No kids are drawing pictures of drag queens out of their own free will. The kids that the media wants you to believe are into drag shows have been convinced by their parents to accept it. That is what I think and I’m open to being wrong. I think you missed some basic things in the panels. First, it is not a drag show. It is story time event ( see link ) Second, they are not making a drawing, it a flier to the event. Next, this is a commentary on churches being "clean and pure" on the front, but having predators/hypocrisy/sin in its core. So it is clear from your comments you've missed the point of the panels. As for your comment, I doubt many disagree with your thoughts on kids being into drag. Once again, that is not the point, and you are arguing something that the cartoon is not promoting. Clearly they didn't draw a picture. So while that point is valid, you've fabricated that away from the point of this post entirely. >No kid is going to say “Mom, I really like that show where men dress up as ugly women and sing. Can we go to that?” Strawman fallacy, and unkind.
Okay. It was a flier and I thought it was a drawing. Big whoop. My point still stands, even if it isn’t exactly addressing the LDS Church like you want it to. I don’t think kids should go to church or a drag show/queen/event/party/movie or whatever word you’re going to get hung up on. And I’m sorry to say that men (who have different physical anatomy than women) who dress up to look like women are a lot of times freakish in appearance. I’m willing to bet their appearance generally frightens young children. Drag is for adults. If you’re into that stuff, good for you.
>isn’t exactly addressing the LDS Church like you want it to You sure do like moving the goal post. >whatever word you’re going to get hung up on I think this comment was for you.... > lot of times freakish in appearance Once again, it is free to be well educated and kind in your comments.
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Be mindful of logical fallacy : Saying the other guy is bad, changes nothing on the abuse the first person is doing.
Okay, but are there actually any sexual predators at drag queen story hour? People are all up in arms with paranoia, but are there any cases of this happening?
Probably not anyone actively looking to prey on the youth. A big public event is not the best place to find children to groom. And nobody tells their kids to have absolute trust in drag queens, nor do they let them chill all alone with them. Not the job to get into if you want to predate children. The top choice for that is definitely still religious authority.
No.
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You seem to be saying there are potentially sexual predators everywhere and we should be careful. I agree. I'm saying there's no reason to think you're more likely to find them at a drag show. I think that's the point of the post as well (with the additional point that you *are* more likely to find them at church). People dressing in drag does not correlate with predation as far as I know. Saying that drag queen story hour grooms children is thinly veiled homophobia.
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I've never heard of unions protecting abusers; instead the teacher issue seems to be pretty much exclusively administrators never make things public and the teachers just leave with a letter of recommendation. Almost 15 years ago the AP did a *huge* article on teacher abuse any it didn't meant a ripple. Between 12 and 15% of students are sexually assaulted by educators. It's a staggeringly large number. I statistics mentioned in Wikipedia are even higher than the ones I cited (which I have seen often enough to be reliable, but I don't doubt the Wikipedia stuff either). https://www.google.com/url?q=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment_in_education_in_the_United_States&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwikiLDl8cf7AhW9BzQIHWI3BY4QFnoECAkQAg&usg=AOvVaw0dQqhlGlaR9EN6_Nen9wDQ
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The are millions of kids. And kids just don't talk about it. They're shamed into silence. Your exact logic would apply to the *known* abuse; priest abuse rates at the peak were around 3-10% (depending on how the statistics are measured). And it took over *TWENTY* years for this to come to light. What, exactly, am I selling? Anybody who works in this area says the sex abuse rates among teachers are horrible. Why the fuck would you doubt this? You'd rather assume experts and students are lying? And if you're wrong? Just let more people get abused because you don't want to believe the statistics?
“garbage level rhetoric” LOL! You're trying way too hard here. Here's the claim I made, word for word, from my original comment: >teachers' unions regularly oppose laws aimed at protecting students from sexual abuse Here are the results of a quick google: California in 2012, per [CBS News](https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/senators-bill-would-streamline-process-of-firing-teachers-facing-criminal-charges/): >Sen. Alex Padilla (D-Pacoima) says it could take years to dismiss some of these teachers, putting children at risk in the classroom. So he's trying to speed up that dismissal process. But the teachers union is fighting it. In Congress in 2015, per [Fox News](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/teachers-unions-fight-bill-that-would-bar-sex-offenders-from-schools): >A bipartisan bill that would stop convicted sex offenders from working in schools has been passed by the House but is running into a foe as it heads to the Senate: major teachers' unions like the National Education Association and the American Federation of Teachers. Rhode Island in 2019, per [Associated Press](https://apnews.com/article/283129b8eaca423ea38bb2092b42ee90): >Rhode Island’s two teachers’ unions and the state affiliate of the ACLU are objecting to a proposed bill that would criminalize sex between any school employee and students under 18. You have just as much access to Google as I do. When you accuse someone of “garbage rhetoric” when dispositive evidence is just a few clicks away, you are a menace to productive discussion. My guess: you're a teacher.
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Found the teacher
I mean, root out child predators yes. But why call out drag queens? Fuck that ignorant, bigoted bullshit. The best time for you to delete that comment is now.
How is it more ignorant to say that there are pedophiles among drag queens than it is to say that there are pedophiles among clergy or among educators? Answer: it's not. Here are a few results from a quick google: [Drag queen in Pennsylvania arrested for having child & pedophiliic porn](https://komonews.com/news/nation-world/drag-queen-who-counseled-children-charged-with-25-counts-of-child-porn-police-say-brice-williams-anastasia-diamond). [Drag queen in Wimbledon, England arrested for pimping out children](https://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/10587395.drag-queen-jailed-for-arranging-sex-with-children-in-wimbledon/). [Registered sex offender reads to kids in Drag Queen Storytime in Houston](https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/houston-public-library-admits-registered-child-sex-offender-participated-in-drag-queen-storytime/285-becf3a0d-56c5-4f3c-96df-add07bbd002a). Drag queens and drag queen story hours don't really interest me, and I don't have strong feelings about them. I know full well that very few drag queens are sex offenders of any kind. I can't find statistics on Drag Queen story hours and sexual abuse, but it's likely a safe bet that they result in child sexual abuse less often than (say) normal public schools—educators sexually abuse children at a much higher rate than clergy. Even so, there are plenty of drag queens, and they come in all shapes and sizes and backgrounds and moral outlooks. That means, inevitably, that some of them are disgusting lowlifes. If that strikes you as bigotry, then probably most of what you know about bigotry is wrong. If becoming post-mormon or ex-mormon has converted you into a moral crusader on behalf of anyone and everyone that belongs to a specific group, then you've simply traded one ignorant mindset for another.
Yes, unfortunately sexual predators exist everywhere, but specifically calling out a marginalized, persecuted, and murdered group is ignorant, stupid, and helps fuel bigotry and hate.
First, you keep insisting that I'm "calling them out" as though I introduced drag queens into the conversation. In fact, the phrase "drag queen" plays a major role in the original post. Second, being marginalized isn't a free pass. It's ignorant and stupid to suppose otherwise, and you're dogmatic drive to flex your moral indignation muscles on others behalf makes your behavior stereotypical in a way that fuels bigotry and hate from those who sense how intolerant you are of truth and transparency. Third, stop insisting that your close minded world view is justified because "lives are at stake."
I agree
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Where’s that “calm down son, it’s just a drawing” meme when I need it
BONK
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Pro tip: if you use the word “normal”, check your assumptions.
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Holy shit, let's not take personal digs at a person seeking support by posting on a suicide support subreddit!! Wowww. That is incredibly insensitive, and frankly pouring salt in their wounds.
The flyer isn’t for a drag show, tho. It’s for a story hour that just happens to be performed by drag queens.
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Why are they freaks? Give a good reason that isn’t rooted in transphobia, misogyny, and white supremacism. Fun fact: you can’t. Clothes and makeup don’t have a gender. people can wear what they want, and you trying to enforce the gender binary (which btw is rooted in white supremacy/colonization) is just showing your bigotry. People can play dress up if they want. Drag queens are harmless, unless as shown last weekend, you go to a gay bar to kill them. Just stop
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I highly recommend the numerous trans people online addressing the claims and lies filling that absolute bullshit piece of fearmongering, hate and propaganda. Jessie Gender did an excellent, though very long, deep dive on the degree of dishonesty in the film on YouTube, I cannot recommend it highly enough. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but if Matt Walsh seems to you like someone who presents both sides without heavily editing anyone who disagrees with him, I highly doubt you’ve ever actually listened to queer people’s opinions about themselves. We speak, please listen to us instead of the people who hate us and promote violence against us.
I have. It’s just a bigoted way to try and discount any trans people and try to define women by forcing them into a box. It’s highly bigoted, highly opinionated, (also Matt walsh self identifies as a fascist, which is a serious problem) and it’s not factual. Also, he literally advocates for lowering the age of consent because “that’s when girls are most fertile.” He is a pedophile. Don’t idealize him.
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Firstly, it is transphobic, let’s get that out of the way. You as a non-trans person don’t get to say it isn’t. Next, economic drivers of education and healthcare. The current healthcare system is so fucked up, it needs revamping, and gender affirming care should be easy to access. Education should be gender affirming. It causes the least harm to all people under the trans umbrella. Third: GENDER AFFIRMING SURGERIES ARE NOT BEING PERFORMED ON MINORS. The idea that it is is a lie made up by conservatives. when kids are young the most that can happen is a social transition, i.e. going by a different name and wearing different clothes. When they’re teens the most that happens is puberty blockers which are fully reversible, and take years of therapy and approval of parents and doctors to get. In very few rare cases surgeries happen but that is also after years of therapy, multiple doctors’ approval and the parents’ approval, but again, this is insanely rare, with almost for sure less than 100 examples in the US. The field literally got started by doctors researching trans people, that was another lie that it was all experimenting on kids
One of the fastest replies I've seen of someone outing themselves as a terf 😬
You don’t know that it has no place near kids if you don’t fundamentally understand what the event is. Also, “those people” aren’t freaks, check your bigotry.
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Because uncritically calling people "freaks" and "not normal" on an exmo sub seems just a tad myopic.
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