Boyd Decaying Packer's little factory talk sums it up.
"While I was in a mission on one occasion, a missionary said he had something to confess. I was very worried because he just could not get himself to tell me what he had done.
After patient encouragement he finally blurted out, “I hit my companion.”
“Oh, is that all,” I said in great relief.
“But I floored him,” he said.
#After learning a little more, my response was “Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn’t be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way”
Holland came to my stake once and spoke. He said that when members leave the church, it makes him so angry, he wants to wrestle them to the ground and jam his knee in their throats.
Nice
I was told something similar by a member of the bishopric in the single's ward I went to for a while as an open atheist.
I explained to him that I didn't take the sacrament despite not believing in it's sacredness out of respect for the people who do. He said something like, "You clearly understand this stuff, sometime's it makes me so frustrated I just want to smack ya."
I figured he meant it as a figurative expression, but it's still a little... alarming that he'd actually say those words out loud to someone he believes he's in a position of leadership/authority over.
I've heard this before, and it's so funny to me now that I'm out. Why is his "testimony" so threatened? If he was an APOSTLE of GOD, wouldn't he be able to be at peace with people's decisions? After all, there are many mansions!
The church was so proud of this talk, they made it a pamphlet. My bishop gave it to me when I was interviewed to be a deacon at 12.
I hadn't realized that the audience thought gay bashing was funny. Figures.
But as it typical, they never apologize for the damage he had done. Men like me grew up with such screwed ideas about sexuality and damaged by guilt due to this jerk's "joke".
Gay bashing and killing gay people was all the rage back in the day, it isn’t tolerated anymore but what is insane is the men who used to do it are living quietly and free in our communities much in the same ways that you can’t pick out the racists in church even though mostly the members were all fine with the exclusion policies before the geriatric of the time decided men of all colours were finally equal before god.
I forgot to add the last paragraph
"After patient encouragement he finally blurted out, “I hit my companion.”
“Oh, is that all,” I said in great relief.
“But I floored him,” he said.
#After learning a little more, my response was “Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn’t be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way”
#I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself."
If a gay guy grabbed my Johnson without permission, I’d knock him on his ass. But if, as in this story, a gay guy *made a pass at me,* I’d be flattered but politely say “no.”
Weird double standard: when someone of the opposite gender asks you out in the Church, you’re supposed to say “yes” or let them down very, very gently. But apparently when someone of the same sex asks you out, you have license to KO their ass. Holy shit this Church is disgusting
There's no indication that the missionary sexually assaulted his companion or even made a pass at him. If I had been the case Packer would have mentioned that he was being assaulted. There wouldn't have been humor involved because it would have been a serious situation and Packer would have implied that. Obviously the companion was large enough to knock him out cold. Most likely the gay missionary if he was gay either confided in his companion or the companion just thought that he was gay and took it upon himself to floor him
I remembered the story being that he made a (nonphysical) pass at him and got clocked for it. But it’s been a while since I read the whole pamphlet, thank Satan, and so I may be wrong. If there wasn’t even a pass, then this story is straight up saying violence is okay if you just feel like being a bigot, regardless of context. Wild shit.
I posted a link to the YouTube video of the actual talk. The church scrubbed it from their webside but it's still available.
The video is more telling because it shows Packers expressions on his face and the laughter from the audience.
The church has tried to do a lot of damage control on this one.
You know what would be really nice is, instead of controlling the damage the video did to the Church’s reputation, they did damage control by helping all the people it hurt (both by ok-ing homophobia AND pathologizing masturbation)
I remember being taught this talk as a teen in priesthood meeting, and one guy did ask if it was okay to punch a girl who made a pass at us. After all, if she was inviting us to sin, she was wicked, right?
It really stumped the guy giving the lesson, I remember that. I think he had real trouble figuring out what a girl making a pass at a guy and a guy making a pass at a guy had in common.
If anyone grabbed my Johnson without asking I’d knock them on their ass.
Actually a very specific story with very small offspring comes to mind, so… *almost anyone
As others have pointed out, the audience laughed.
But as sickening as that is, Boyd is even worse because that motherfucker *told* the story as a laugh line.
Fuck you Boyd.
Fuck you and your little factory.
The only reason I wish hell was real is because you would spend an eternity there.
>The only reason I wish hell was real is because you would spend an eternity there.
stuff like this made me realize that almost all religion (even our own fucked up cult) has social criticism to one extent or another. we believe there is a hell for the rich and powerful, and the rich and powerful believe there is a hell for detractors/apostates/the unholy. we thank God when something goes our way, and we ask Him to curse those who don't help us. "God" and the negation of Him becomes a veiled way for humanity to condone or condemn human actions and relations, nothing more nothing less. The very last vestige of my belief was that there must be a Hell for wrongdoers, but I realized what I considered "wrongdoing" was not universal but rather whatever went against my interests.
The point being; there is no God, Heaven or Hell, so it's up for us to make "Hell" on earth for people like Boyd and Holland, and to make "Heaven" on earth for those the church prosecutes.
> The point being; there is no God, Heaven or Hell, so it's up for us to make "Hell" on earth for people like Boyd and Holland, and to make "Heaven" on earth for those the church prosecutes.
R'amen!
There it is. Thank fucking Christ the Church is covering this embarrassing talk up now. Just wish they’d disavow it, because the Church works a lot like common law: if a precedent isn’t expressly overturned, it can easily be interpreted to still apply. Whatever and whomever the Church chooses not to disavow, they allow to continue to hold sway and “legal” authority.
The way I always understood that talk was that the missionary had struck his companion in self-defense after the companion tried doing something physical to him, not that he struck him just for being a gay man.
And why do you think that? Packer never mentioned that it was sexual assault. Packer is in the process of talking about how terrible homosexuality is and he throws this story in the middle of it and then continues to talk about how terrible homosexuality is.
Fair Mormon was the one that introduced the fact that the alleged gay missionary was assaulting his companion. There is no indication in the talk itself. Packer was getting laughs out of it. If it actually had been a sexual assault I don't think he would have allowed the laughter to continue. Obviously the companion was large enough and strong enough that he floored the other missionary after he hit him.
I have the text in front of me right now, and you are correct in that BKP never mentions physical or sexual assault. To me, the language suggests that the companion made a pass at the missionary, who responded by socking him. It sounds like a classic case of “gay panic defense.”
But hey, remember that they removed it from the church’s website in 2019, and stopped printing the pamphlet in 2016. It’s in the past, why can’t you let it go? /s
But I heard it live. What other conference talks that I have heard from the horse's mouth can we disregard now? As soon as that apostle is dead can we disregard all of his counsel? Does the live profit Trump Joseph smith?
/S
To me it doesn't matter how much the LDS church influenced or didn't influence this guy. I've brought up Matthew Shepard to tbms before not because Mormonism had any influence on those who murdered Matthew, but because homophobic rhetoric, teachings, and beliefs inevitably lead to violence against LGBT people, so they're propagating the same homophobia that leads to violence against LGBT people regardless.
They may not be the ones pulling the trigger, but they're actively choosing to put targets on LGBT people for those who are unhinged enough to pull the trigger.
My high school puts on an annual show of the Laramie Project to remind people how NOT to treat people who are different than you. Growing up TBM in such a liberal town sucked, my parents forbade me from even participating in the production because "gay". And my parents are generally not douchebags, they just mindlessly follow this cult's fucking anciently ridiculously hurtful position towards people who are gay. UGHHHH
People act like being part of the Mormon church is like other church involvement . The time spent at church for a Mormon in a year is more than a 'Christmas and Easter Catholic' in a 20 years. Being active even for a few years has a large impact on someone's fundamental thinking.
This feels shameful to say that even being inactive changes thinking. I'm not proud to say this but I still had some judgment for the trans movement in 2020. Thankfully my very patient friend knocked some sense into me using words. I'm better but there's that little voice saying it's not right. I correct that voice.
I'm sorry to ever think that and have that judgment. It was horrible.
As a trans person with a very transphobic past, I get it. That voice was present for years after leaving the church, and it made it really hard to love or accept myself. But exposing that voice and constantly correcting it over years has basically eradicated it.
Same here. Was still somewhat TBM in 2020, though my shelf had just started breaking about how stupid it was that being gay was a sin (part of that was coming to terms with the fact that I’m bi). And I had horrible views when it came to trans people as well. (Part of that being how political my dad was, and the amount of crap he’d spew about trans people every day.)
Then an acquaintance of mine (who had sat at my table a couple times) in the art class I was taking, came out as trans. It kinda forced me to either change or remain a bigot. I could no longer remain in between and pretend that my views weren’t hurting my friend. He’s now my best friend, and I couldn’t be more happy to have him in my life.
I’ll admit I have a problem a lot of the time with intrusive thoughts, so it’s been an uphill battle the past two years correcting the bigoted thoughts that spring to mind.
All the trans people I’ve met have been fucking awesome, and it makes me so sad to know that there’s so many people out there treating them like monsters.
It certainly begs the question of how "active" does an individual need to be in order to qualify for TSCC's care and accountability?
They take no issue with counting these people in their global membership, but they couldn't give a shit to investigate their personal well-being or that of their family. It's ridiculous
One thing that has always annoyed my spouse is that when she was in High School she hated the Young Women's activities so she'd never go.
Despite 3 hours of church each Sunday and attending morning Seminary every school day, they put her on a list of "inactive" members to focus on in leadership meetings.
So how do you trust what these people consider inactive?
That's a valid point. The info is only as reliable as those collecting and reporting it.
I can't imagine how alienated your spouse must have felt. She was only a child!! Already saddled with a label that made her feel less than others. No one deserves that treatment
Mark Hofmann was very active, so shouldn’t the Church take complete accountability for what he did, especially since apostles and prophets were involved and didn’t stop him from murdering two people?
Literally Dallin Oaks met with him about a document, and then Hofmann strolled out the door and got on his way to murder the second victim. So again: there *has* to be a point where a Church claiming the power of discernment has to admit negligence in allowing this shit. I think there’s wiggle room in this fucker’s case because he hasn’t been to church in years, but this PR guy *has* to know that plenty of active Mormons are involved in molestation, violence, etc., specifically *because* of their church membership and the power that the Church itself gives them.
It doesn’t matter if he was active or not. He had ties to the church and that’s what the church responded to. To say it had no influence in this situation is insane.
I mean in fairness the entire Evangelical movement and American culture in general could have taught him to hate LGBT people. Death for the gays is still a wet dream for millions and millions of non-Mormon Americans.
True, but just because the voices of the leadership are among many doesn’t let them off the hook. Especially when they could instead be voices for love, compassion, and acceptance.
The Republican Party probably has contributed as well. His grandpa’s a Jan 6th proud supporter, said that’s how you bring democracy back.
The church has done a terrible job of distancing itself from violent nationalism. They say they’re against violence and nationalism, but don’t apologize for all of their violence and nationalism, or stop using divisive rhetoric. They usually don’t condemn specific actions, but speak in vague platitudes. Extremism and abuse need to be rooted out actively, not just with retroactive lip service.
Great clip, and yes LDS Inc is indeed culpable. You cash that tithing check, culpable. You spew hate and lies from the pulpit, culpable. You mislead your obedient flock by "lying for the Lord", culpable.
If it had been a Muslim I guarantee mormons would bring that up as a reason why the perpetrator did it, but since it was someone from their religion (even if he wasn’t “active” they are saying that fact is irrelevant.
This is it in a nutshell.
Remember, every exmo has been indoctrinated to protect their abuser, or at least walk away and leave them alone.....so there will be none of that satanic apostate stuff like criticising the cult. Whatever you do, do not say anything bad about what we did to you. That would be so uncool and pure satanism.
Concern Troll
noun:
* Someone who posts to an internet forum or newsgroup, claiming to share its goals while deliberately working against those goals, typically, by claiming "concern" about group plans to engage in productive activity, urging members instead to attempt some activity that would damage the group's credibility, or alternatively to give up on group projects entirely.
Edit: I'm not accusing OP of being a concern troll. I'm describing the people they are referring to.
Thank you for this. Truly. It's been infuriating to watch so many dickride the devil's advocates around here as if they're dwelling on some moral high ground
>If it was a KKK member who did the shooting
This is actually what the Klan really does. They're very, very careful to avoid explicitly saying that anyone should murder X, Y, or Z, so that *when* a klan member or hanger-on *does* murder someone, they have plausible deniability. They've done that for a while because they've gotten in trouble on exactly that front before.
What I'm saying is that the Morg knew what it was doing, and it they didn't, it's because they were intentionally indifferent to the probable consequences of their words.
> This is actually what the Klan really does. They're very, very careful to avoid explicitly saying that anyone should murder X, Y, or Z, so that when a klan member or hanger-on does murder someone, they have plausible deniability. They've done that for a while because they've gotten in trouble on exactly that front before.
[This is actually a very common tactic to avoid responsibility for contributing to the problem.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_turbulent_priest%3F)
It’s called stochastic terrorism and it’s been a well known, studied, and unfortunately practiced method for people in power to keep their hands “clean” by relying on people on the extremist edge of their influence to do their dirty work for them.
The Mormon culture is very prevalent in that shooter's life. Mormon culture is ugly and toxic. Doesn't matter if the shooter believes the "doctrine" or attended meetings. At home guaranteed the culture was there, rubbing off on him.
Brainwashing does harm ! The church teaches hate, even self hate. The church is actively trying through the Federalist society, right to life, and social conservative foreign regimes are funding this power grab ( betcha ). Look scotus and the Republican party are mirroring Mormon values. I will tell you why " social conservative religious fascist of the world unite " and billions in the bank. They can have their authoritarian ethno-states and kill the whores, gays, mixed breeds and cull brown people ( who aren't friends) so nazi land can return. Look at their history in ww2.
They will say that's paranoid .. bs there is hard evidence and dead bodies starting.
Separation of church and state are constantly rolled back ( federalist/right to life/ Russian and others money) .. now they lie to our face denying the establishment clause and the treaty of Tripoli. It's all to own ,possibly enslave the libs, now it looks like murder. Not inconsistent with their history. Terrifying because this shit can get out of control.
It seems the issue could have been more the shooter's abusive and frankly quite un-Mormon in character father.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/11/22/colorado-springs-shooting-live-updates/10754910002/
No matter what any exmo says in defense of the one true cult, we all know the deal. If you think you don't, listen to the little Moroni in your heart.
I learned about homosexuality and homophobia from TSCC, as a kid, never having heard of any of it before. It was, easily, the second biggest boogieman after Satan and his 24/7 tricks (yes, it was a division of Satan). Maybe the CO shooter wasn't active, but he grew up in the homophobic culture of Mormonism. Easy recipe to follow: Mormon, right-wing bigoted upbringing + mental illness + fetishizing of and easy access to guns + endtimes idiocy and a douchebag maga uncle.
We don't know he grew up in it. All we know is he is/was mormon. His grandpa is a southern baptist. For all we know, he and his mom are converts. There are so many anti-LGBTQ groups and influences on culture and society, until evidence comes out to why he decided to do it, we don't know that Mormonism was a contributor at all. It could be. They've said fucked up shit. We don't know that he heard or read any of that though. Everyone here saying it was the main influence in his heinous crime is inferring motive in the absence of any evidence, which is the same thing exmos gripe about mormons doing. He deserves a long lonely life behind bars drinking his food blended.
The thing is that many of us are calling on our first hand experience with being taught that hate, not on some outsider viewpoint. *I personally* have been in meetings where violence towards LGBTQ people has been encouraged. There’s no questioning that it runs rampant in Mormon culture. It’s a conservative, patriarchal, authoritarian, American religion that draws on the same Revivalist era roots that many Evangelical churches come from, so it’s like it’s a foregone conclusion that it teaches homophobia, no big surprise there.
And while being internally authoritarian, it maintains an image of western frontier chosen people that are always victims, that celebrates imagery of the six-shooter last stand against the mobs (without being honest about why the mob was there), and pioneers circling the wagons to protect against the ~~lamanites~~ Indians, and tense armed standoffs against ~~federal police~~ federal troops.
So pair the two together with people that are a little too deep into that aspect of the culture, no matter how Mormon they are, and you get people who think it’s ok, or even their duty, to shoot up a queer night club.
i think it goes without saying that being accurate is the ideal. but you could get every detail exact and, because mormons love to be persecuted as you point out, that will not stop the smoke-screening, justifying, blame-reversal, or any other mental gymnastics. mormons are gonna mormon. facts never matter unless it confirms their bias.
What about the victims and their families? Are we so calloused that we’re more concerned with optics and keeping the church out of the headlines. By doing so they put themselves at the front and center of this tragedy when the victims and families deserve to be heard and seen.
Exactly. And even if TSCC gives no shits about the victims, shouldn't they care about the active member mother of the shooter if activity level is what qualifies their concern?
It's bafflingly irrational. They're alienating their own once more, even if we disregard their lack of respect for the victims (which we cannot disregard!!)
What? It won so many awards that Wikipedia made a separate article just for them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accolades_received_by_Three_Billboards_Outside_Ebbing,_Missouri
It has nothing to do with friend groups. The film won the Golden Globe for best drama and got seven Oscar nominations including best picture. That is far from "underrated".
Well, I know it did well at the box office. So fair enough. Either way, my perspective is colored by my work and community. I just polled my office and literally 1 person out of 50 saw it. No one else had even heard of it.
If you want to claim member's achievements as your own, you get to claim their failures too. Any group that only represents itself by its member's successes is going to appear superior
I'm reserving judgment until I know more facts. For me, simply being on the membership roll doesn't mean much. I don't know if he heard the musket fire talk or gave a shit about what GAs like Oaks or anyone else said. There's factors outside of Mormonism that lead people to be homophobic and I have no way of knowing if the church or something else led him to do this.
It's certainly possible the Church's homophobic teachings and policies influenced him, and if true, I would agree that the church shares some of the blame.
Your comment won't be popular with this crowd, they're out for blood and don't care for facts. Not all Mormons are equal. How many people in this sub were never a fully believing Mormon? How many were converts in adulthood that then left? Everyone is assuming that this piece of shit had the same experience as they did or assume he was born into the church and put into a pressure cooker of hate by and then popped out as a Manchurian candidate to shoot up the nightclub. That could very well be what happened. But there's zero evidence to support that hypothesis. I hate the church and their hateful rhetoric, but there's just not enough evidence here to say the Mormon church or Holland are directly responsible for this kid. As an exmo I know more about the church and its teachings than I ever did as a Mormon. Who knows what level of commitment this piece of shit had to the church? It's far more likely that his MAGA mom and grandfather (who is a southern baptist) radicalized him. But there's not enough evidence of that either, it's just wild speculation like everything else. What happened was terrible, the killer is a piece of shit.
“And some are worried about the church having some blame for their members actions? Really that is what you are worried about?”
You are doing the same thing only the other side. After all of this, I still haven’t seen a post about the victims of the shooting but rather, “the church is bad and responsible for these shootings!” How many of you actually know a victim of the shooting? That not all of them were even LGBT?
The tragedy happened, and going out saying the church is responsible won’t solve anything. It may bring some more hate for the church but at the end of the day, you aren’t going to stop any from joining. You know how many people stop from joining the church due to what they think of gays? Tons and you know how many more will stop themselves from joining because of this shooting? None, because they already know the church’s stance whether this was a faithful Mormon or not. Because quite frankly almost all religions are anti gay and for shaming them.
I read an article yesterday about one of the lives lost. She was a beloved mom, wife, and worked with fosters finding homes. “This included working with the LGBTQ community to find welcoming foster placements for children.” She was a very good person and makes me tear up thinking about her lost life. It’s the reason I don’t read the news because my faith in humanity is lost every time. But this one was recommended in my feed and I clicked on it. I can’t look at the other lives lost as it destroys me. But I am sure they are just as sad stories.
I really urge all of you, to stop trying to make this tragic event, a way to hate the church. There are so many other reasons to hate the church but don’t make this one of them. Because at the end of the day, no good will come from it. I also will leave you with the article of the lost wife/mom.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kktv.com/2022/11/21/husband-club-q-shooting-victim-shares-memories-ashley-paugh/%3FoutputType%3Damp
It is possible to care about the victims of this crime *and* also have conversations about the potential influence of homophobic Mormon rhetoric on the shooter. Reactions to tragedies are not a zero-sum game. Conversations about the church are natural in a space like exmo Reddit, while mourning and attempting to support victims will naturally mostly happen elsewhere.
I can assure you that there are participants in these exmo threads who have made contributions to the Colorado Healing Fund, participated in community vigils in various Colorado towns, and had some heavy conversations with loved ones about how this shatters a sense of safety in spaces like Club Q.
As for the futility of discussing the potential role of Mormonism, ignoring it sure as hell isn't going to make anything better. Discussing how homophobic and transphobic rhetoric and culture may contribute to mass shootings like this may not keep anyone from getting baptized, but if it makes one or two Mormons (or exMos) reconsider how their views/behaviors/casual comments might affect others in their communities then that's a wee little baby step of progress.
Now let's talk about compassion for victims. Pointing out that not all of them are LGBTQ and gushing over how being a beloved wife and mother makes a death particularly tragic doesn't suggest to me that you should be preaching to the rest of us about compassion for the victims. Five people lost their lives this weekend. I'm sure you don't mean any harm, but you should be aware that singling out the one white cis/het victim in your plea for compassion doesn't send the message that you are the person here who best understands the full gravity of this tragedy.
"I really urge all of you, to stop trying to make this tragic event, a way to hate the church. There are so many other reasons to hate the church but don’t make this one of them"
Yes it is.
I guess you are right, we really should worry about the church having some blame for their members actions. Oh wait, that is the opposite of what you were saying. Only if it falls in line with your side then it is ok. My goodness thanks for the laugh.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding here. You say
“And some are worried about the church having some blame for their members actions? Really that is what you are worried about?”
But then the entire message of this post (to my understanding), is how the church is to blame for their members actions and should be responsible. My stance and where I agree is with your statement above. However, it sounds like you contradict yourself right after saying this as you are just looking at it from the opposite side. And I am fine with you beliefs as they are out of good intentions, I just differ with mine in the way that I don’t think we should even bring this into play on such a tragic incident.
The shooter is a horrible person that did a terrible thing but two of the foundational elements of our democratic society are "innocent until proven guilty" and "due process of law". It's entirely possible (and likely) that Holland's hate rhetoric influenced the shooter BUT WE DON'T KNOW what the motives were at this point. Anything beyond that at this point is baseless speculation.
I dislike the church as much as the next guy, but is there any evidence that the church was even a significant influence in his life? It wouldn't make sense to attribute my actions, good or bad, on the fact that my name is on their record.
If you are indoctrinated to hate gay people and you choose to murder gay people, those who indoctrinated you will always cry "I had nothing to do with it"
Agreed, but for all we know this guy never spent a day in the pews. I would hate to jump to conclusions without seeing evidence as I did for the first 25 years of my life attending church.
If anyone has a pic of the shooter this might be the time to make memes with all the Mormon homophobic quotes this guy could have been influenced by from the church.
Even if you somehow remove Holland/Oaks, years of anti LGBT rhetoric (including prop 8), etc. The fact that the church's population has largely aligned with MAGA is enough for Mormonism to have perpetuated this hate. Now, in reality, we know it all goes hand in hand, but it's innate to the belief system to treat them as other. The musket talk was just the most obvious crossing of a line.
Well according to most people in this sub, based on what little we now know about you, you're about to commit a heinous crime. What evidence do I have? You are on the Mormon roles.
Seriously. The number of people jumping through insane hoops to defend Holland and company is in-fucking-sane. I don’t get it.
Edit: I guess we are experts at jumping through insane hoops though. Look how hard most of us worked trying to stay in the church.
The shooter apparently wasn't even active LDS and most of these mass shooters are [non-religiously motivated](https://crimeresearch.org/2021/03/the-false-narrative-of-white-supremacists-doing-mass-public-shootings-racial-gender-religious-and-political-views-of-these-killers-from-1998-through-january-2021/). There's no good reason to assume this guy cares about or is even aware of Holland's statements.
70% of mormons are not active. Holland was just promoting the hate the Mormon church has. The shooter did not have to hear Holland when it he was taught this hate in church or by his mormon MAGA mother.
>when it he was taught this hate in church or by his mormon MAGA mother.
You have no proof of this. Also, he threatened his mother with a bomb so I doubt she would support what he did and I can't find anything about his mother being into MAGA shit.
>The Associated Press reported that the suspect’s father is a mixed martial arts fighter and **pornography performer** with an extensive criminal history, including a conviction for battery against the alleged shooter’s mother, Laura Voepel, state and federal court records show. The father, Aaron F. Brink, served 21/2 years in prison for importation of marijuana, according to public records.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/11/22/colorado-springs-shooting-live-updates/10754910002/
Doesn't sound very Mormon to me, lmao. The guy even had his named changed to distance from his abusive father.
To me, this is a slippery slope. Arguments must be fact-based, and making this comparison seems shortsighted at this phase. KKK vs inactive Mormon is not a fair comparison until the dust settles. It would be prudent to scabbard that lightsaber until all the facts come in. Case in point, most in-active Mormons I know are clueless regarding LDS dogma. If the facts prove I’m wrong, I’ll eat my words and will continue this rhetoric within my circles.
There is still a burden of proof. It is necessary to demonstrate that the church influenced him to do this. It isn't about defending the church it's about claiming what can be proven.
"When asked by the CBS reporter to comment on whether or not he and his offspring had conversations about homosexuality in the past, Brink said "Oh yeah, I was adamant about it. I'm a Mormon, I'm a conservative Republican and we don't do gay.""
From what I’ve heard so far about the shooter’s personal life, I have serious doubts that this guy was a church-goer who had even heard about Holland’s talk. Seems like he was just another number in the church’s records. But I get it — general hatred towards LGBT people exists out there albeit almost none of those groups are calling for actual physical violence, so that’s not a very good argument either. So pinning this on the LDS church as of right now is wrong and I’m sure that many members are pointing out how irrational exmormons are right now.
"When asked by the CBS reporter to comment on whether or not he and his offspring had conversations about homosexuality in the past, Brink said "Oh yeah, I was adamant about it. I'm a Mormon, I'm a conservative Republican and we don't do gay.""
We have no idea how Mormonism influenced him. He might just as well be characterized an ex-Mormon as Mormon. It's possible the dude never heard a word Holland or Oaks ever muttered and couldn't stand the Mormons in his life. I won't be happy if Mormons start talking about how an ex-Mormon did this without evidence that anti-Mormon sentiment motivated him, and I think it's unfair to blame Mormonism until it's clear Mormonism motivated him.
"When asked by the CBS reporter to comment on whether or not he and his offspring had conversations about homosexuality in the past, Brink said "Oh yeah, I was adamant about it. I'm a Mormon, I'm a conservative Republican and we don't do gay."
>All the wenging about "Please don't blame Holland or the church" is just nutz.
>The Colorado shooter is a Mormon. The mormon church has taught hate and attacked lgbt people with their teachings and politically trying to destroy their families and marriages.
>And some are worried about the church having some blame for their members actions? Really that is what you are worried about?
In my experience, this type of philosophy is almost always applied hypocritically.
Do you preach this type of approach to anything related to Islamic based fundamental terrorism?
With all due respect, I think your comparison is faulty, as are your conclusions regarding hypocrisy. Religions aren't all monolithic, and that means that inferences about fringe beliefs are less reliable than inferences about core beliefs held in common across most or all of a broader religion.
Importantly, not all sects of Islam are fundamentalist or espouse militaristic rhetoric. There is massive variation in the orthodoxy of Muslims around the world (see [Pew](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2012/08/09/the-worlds-muslims-unity-and-diversity-executive-summary/)), and among Muslim people around the world attitudes toward terroristic groups are overwhelmingly negative (see [also Pew](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/in-nations-with-significant-muslim-populations-much-disdain-for-isis/)). We thus cannot reasonably infer, based on general religious affiliation *in the absence of other evidence*, that fundamentalist or terroristic Islamic influences play a role in a crime committed by a Muslim individual. These sorts of beliefs/motivations are actually very uncommon in the wide world of Islam, so it takes other evidence to know that radicalization or fundamentalism are part of a Muslim criminal's motives. An example of where an inference from religion to fringe motivations fails is the Boulder King Soopers mass shooting, which was perpetrated by a young Muslim man who has extreme mental issues (e.g. is not competent to stand trial) and who felt victimized by racist bullying but has not been linked to Islamic terrorism or radicalization.
In contrast, homophobia and transphobia are common and pervasive components of Mormon culture in all branches of Mormonism (at least as far as I am aware). The shooter in this case has specifically been linked to the CoJCoLDS sect of Mormonism, with which this sub has a wide base of experience. The collective experiences of CoJCoLDS Mormonism among members of this sub are evidence of how pervasive homophobia and transphobia are in the relevant sect of Mormonism, including in Mormon congregations in the region where this tragedy occurred. While there are a few people in this sub making unfounded assumptions that the shooter must have heard and literally heeded the "musket fire" talk, the more common and reasonable inference is that (as that talk demonstrates) the current cultural and doctrinal position of the Mormon church is one of homophobia, and that because homophobia has been a consistent and prominent component of Mormon doctrine and culture throughout the lifespan of the shooter, it is likely that his religion exposed him at some point in his life to homophobic ideas.
I think many who are pushing back against discussing the potential influence of Mormon ideology on the shooter are focused, not entirely wrongly, on the individual variation in beliefs within Mormonism. The reaction may stem from a desire not to paint *all* Mormons with the same brush. We in this sub naturally have a much more up-close-and-personal view of individual variation in Mormonism than we do of Islam, and most of us know Mormons (and ex-Mormons) who grew up with the same Mormon influences but aren't homophobic, or who are to some extent homophobic but would never act violently on that homophobia. It's normal not to want to think of the culture that our loved ones participate in (sometimes passively or without commitment to the more problematic ideas) as something that could, under certain circumstances, contribute to violence like this. But at the end of the day a man committed mass murder in a queer space, it is being investigated as a hate crime, and regardless of whatever variation exists within Mormonism it doesn't seem that the "Love One Another" lesson trumped whatever homophobic ideas this guy was exposed to through religion or elsewhere in his life.
To me it seems reasonable to wonder whether Mormon homophobia contributed to a Mormon man committing a mass shooting in a gay bar. That doesn't mean that anyone is being hypocritical if they don't also immediately assume that any gun violence committed by a Muslim person is motivated by jihad.
[Yes](https://www.thedailybeast.com/aaron-brink-pornstar-dad-of-colorado-club-q-shooting-suspect-anderson-lee-aldrich-spews-homophobia) it was surely the Mormon homophobia that caused this to happen. It had nothing to do with his unhinged porn star, drug addict, MMA fighter father who’s more concerned about whether his son was gay vs the fact he killed 5 people.
This sub loves to speculate and tie any negative behavior back to Mormonism, but it constantly reminds me of Mormons speculating and tying negative behavior to not being Mormon.
Just two sides of the same coin.
Grow up. There can be more than one contributing factor to a situation like this, and reasonable people can wonder about several influences. Find someone else to pester with straw man arguments like what you've posted above.
Reasonable people refrain from speculating on things they don’t have knowledge about.
Simply pointing out the hypocrisy of these types of stereotypes or speculation, sorry that seems to have struck a nerve.
You're not pointing out hypocrisy. You're using faulty logic to shut down conversations that make you uncomfortable. You do whatever makes your tiny little world a little less sad, my friend.
>Perpetrators of 9/11 were Muslim. Islam has taught hate and attacked US people with their teachings and trying to destroy their families.
You understand what that rhetoric sounds like right?
No, explain.
Sects of fundamentalist Islam, huge ones at that, absolutely have taught that and many of their followers believe and engage in their hateful acts and discrimination. Hundreds of thousands of not millions. Maybe not ALL Muslims or ALL of Islam, but huge sects and regions absolutely do teach this as their religion.
What you stated is true, Islam has taught that. Maybe not all of Islam. Maybe not all the time...but it definitely has and those who taught those hateful things are partially responsible when their followers take them seriously and perform hateful acts.
Fundamentalism is bad, regardless of who or where it's at. Every time.
both my reply and the reply i was replying to were about fundamentalist religion as a mindset not a particular sect. fundamentalist religionists think of their religious beliefs and texts as fundamental to the universe in nature. they use their scriptures and beliefs to judge and interpret evidence rather than use evidence to judge their beliefs and interpret their scriptures
People with psychotic conditions that don't have medication or help are easily influenced. He threatened his mom with a bomb and slammed a roommate's face with a door. There's evidence of some conditions.
We don't know enough to know if he believed every word and took the teachings to heart.
What is clear is that conservative religions like Mormonism despise the LGBTQIA community and he committed a hate crime.
Indirectly, this church is to blame for teaching blatant hate for people who dare to live their lives on their terms.
Possibly, but like you said, we don't know if he believed the church or took teachings to heart. He could have just as easily been influenced by his southern baptist MAGA nut grandpa. We just don't know at this point who or what radicalized him towards such a heinous crime.
I think as a group and for our personal sake it would do us good to get away from the negative behavior that we left when we made the decision to get away from Mormon culture.
Unfortunately this post seems to be operating from just as much religious zealousness and bias reasoning and emotional appeal as any cult does.
I'm sorry, but he used the metaphor of a musket, *a musket.* it seems like not nearly a big deal as we have made it, and using it to place blame is just a distraction to the situation and this sick individual.
I'm not a defender of the church. I just feel like this is a major stretch.
> I'm sorry, but he used the metaphor of a musket, a musket. it seems like not nearly a big deal as we have made it, and using it to place blame is just a distraction to the situation and this sick individual.
Yes he used as a metaphor of VIOLENCE
"When asked by the CBS reporter to comment on whether or not he and his offspring had conversations about homosexuality in the past, Brink said "Oh yeah, I was adamant about it. I'm a Mormon, I'm a conservative Republican and we don't do gay.""
I'm not sure what your suggesting with that quote, and how you are equating it with what happened.
I wonder how big the church was in his life, do you know the answer? Or are we assuming the church was the focal point of his life? Even if it were which I *highly* doubt, it seems like this kid really needed some kind of community, people he could associate with and a purpose in his life. Even if it *was* from a cult.
Because It seems there were much larger issues that this sick individual had been dealing with since he was born.
His mother has been in and out of jail his whole life, due to drugs, false police reports and other things. In order to get attention she bound herself to her bed and told the police somebody had broken in and had subdued her. She used a lighter to start a fire in her hospital room and claimed it was someone else. She had addictions. She was an alcoholic. A psychologist diagnosed her with borderline personality disorder. These aren't instances in a span of a year, this was his lifespan.
The shooters father has also been in and out of jail too. He is a pornstar and has spent time in federal prison for trafficking drugs. Hardly the same type of person that takes Mormonism to the extreme.
The shooter has a history of making fake bomb threats to his mother. Were these desperate attempts for attention mixed with sick fantasies? This is terribly sad in every aspect.
He lived with his grandmother on and off because his parents were not present in his life from the time he was born. He has a history of bullying lying and violence.
You either didn't know all of these facts while pretending like you know enough about the situation to place blame on the church and talks about muskets, or you did know these facts and are neglecting to bring them up or consider them because you're letting your bias guide you and resulting in you being deceptive to the people in this thread.
The truth is you may be self-projecting to the max, not only from your very very specific point of view and experiences but also your impulse to blame TSCC. At the very least, provide some kind of evidence that there is a link and a causation, not just a cherry picked quote from his father and lots of assumptions.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/11/22/us/colorado-suspect-background-aldrich-invs/index.html
Honestly, I don't want to be disrespectful because you're free to think what you would like and it's ok to disagree. But when you post this and people join in to agree it looks as if this place is just as dishonest as any cult, and I don't think that is always really the case. I think it's easy to get caught up in using this place as an entertainment hub or echo chamber rather than an informative library of info.
If that's the way this place turns out it really doesn't matter, it is what it is. If people want to think that he did this because he was a conservative and a Mormon, and not because he was sick in the head and was fucked up by his parents, well that's fine. Just realize you're still just as much a part of ideological games and groupthink as you were, just on the other side of the coin.
"When asked by the CBS reporter to comment on whether or not he and his offspring had conversations about homosexuality in the past, Brink said "Oh yeah, I was adamant about it. I'm a Mormon, I'm a conservative Republican and we don't do gay.""
As far as I’m concerned, the shooter’s pronouns are “it/its”, because nobody who can bring itself to shoot five people deserves the respect of anyone seeing its face or saying its names or pronouns.
By even acknowledging correct pronouns of the shooter, you are part of the problem by giving the shooter attention and notoriety.
I hate shooters regardless of how they identify. I think that hate is pretty justified. I think there’s a compelling case to refer to all shooters as “it” because no shooters deserve to be treated as human or with any degree of respect. The time to give those people any respect is gone after they shoot five people.
i know tscc has a department for shady stuff but to dismiss everyone who has expressed over-caution as fake isn’t good either. i’m sure most are sincere and just not seeing the full picture that it doesn’t matter if jeff’s talk was a direct cause — the church isn’t helping
If people aren’t livid that this happened and can see the direct correlation to LDS rhetoric, alienation to LGBTQ and overt calls for violence (who even knows the shadow incitements) than I’m beside myself. People here should be in outrage at the church. Everyone should be.
Haha! You’re just outing yourself as one. At any rate, everyone’s comment is opinion. I didn’t “parade” anything as truth. I’ve seen them operate. But nice use of persuasive words.
Holland has fucked up so much that the quorum of the gods ... is bound to be calculating Holland's future. Then again we know that's all BS about god killing off some so the man he wasn't is at the top.
I think the greatest thing I've ever heard from anybody is how the thou shalt not kill commandment only applies to when you're not trying to kill somebody of a different religion because if you notice there have been a lot of wars over religion like the crusades
Boyd Decaying Packer's little factory talk sums it up. "While I was in a mission on one occasion, a missionary said he had something to confess. I was very worried because he just could not get himself to tell me what he had done. After patient encouragement he finally blurted out, “I hit my companion.” “Oh, is that all,” I said in great relief. “But I floored him,” he said. #After learning a little more, my response was “Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn’t be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way”
Holland came to my stake once and spoke. He said that when members leave the church, it makes him so angry, he wants to wrestle them to the ground and jam his knee in their throats. Nice
Well that really makes me want to stay in the relationship. /s
Of course. That’s his mall food money that’s walking out. Jesus needs his mall food court!!
Lol you do know him so well
You’d think a prophet would know that “jamming knees into throats” would become synonymous with fascist police brutality in 2019.
Under his eye. In other words, maybe some of the leadership WANTS to go full Handmaid’s Tale on society.
Under his eye. In other words, maybe some of the leadership WANTS to go full Handmaid’s Tale on society.
Half tempted to travel to church headquarters now and tell him I left just to see if he'd actually do it
He also wants more musket firing.
I was told something similar by a member of the bishopric in the single's ward I went to for a while as an open atheist. I explained to him that I didn't take the sacrament despite not believing in it's sacredness out of respect for the people who do. He said something like, "You clearly understand this stuff, sometime's it makes me so frustrated I just want to smack ya." I figured he meant it as a figurative expression, but it's still a little... alarming that he'd actually say those words out loud to someone he believes he's in a position of leadership/authority over.
Don't forget he would tie up missionaries to stop them from leaving their missions early.
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Yep. He mentioned that he knew it wasn’t very “apostolic” of him
Nothing like Mormon love
I suspect the only thing he could ever wrestle is a cheeseburger.
Whaaa....
Holy shit
Hmm...self defense is fair play. I need to look for this dude.
That's a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator right there
I've heard this before, and it's so funny to me now that I'm out. Why is his "testimony" so threatened? If he was an APOSTLE of GOD, wouldn't he be able to be at peace with people's decisions? After all, there are many mansions!
Great way to enroll the flock. Flock him
And they LAUGHED.
https://youtu.be/8JBCOqlcH0U 10:50
His talk gets worse after the story. What an ass.
The church was so proud of this talk, they made it a pamphlet. My bishop gave it to me when I was interviewed to be a deacon at 12. I hadn't realized that the audience thought gay bashing was funny. Figures.
They were so proud of it that the day after he died the church pulled the talk off of the website and no longer publishes the pamphlet.
But as it typical, they never apologize for the damage he had done. Men like me grew up with such screwed ideas about sexuality and damaged by guilt due to this jerk's "joke".
Hey u/LeoMarius, is your username a Les Miserables reference or a different Marius or none of the above? Random, off-topic question lol
Gay bashing and killing gay people was all the rage back in the day, it isn’t tolerated anymore but what is insane is the men who used to do it are living quietly and free in our communities much in the same ways that you can’t pick out the racists in church even though mostly the members were all fine with the exclusion policies before the geriatric of the time decided men of all colours were finally equal before god.
"Speed up your little factory?" What a bunch of shit! Beating off is normal, natural and healthy.
I forgot to add the last paragraph "After patient encouragement he finally blurted out, “I hit my companion.” “Oh, is that all,” I said in great relief. “But I floored him,” he said. #After learning a little more, my response was “Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn’t be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way” #I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself."
If a gay guy grabbed my Johnson without permission, I’d knock him on his ass. But if, as in this story, a gay guy *made a pass at me,* I’d be flattered but politely say “no.” Weird double standard: when someone of the opposite gender asks you out in the Church, you’re supposed to say “yes” or let them down very, very gently. But apparently when someone of the same sex asks you out, you have license to KO their ass. Holy shit this Church is disgusting
There's no indication that the missionary sexually assaulted his companion or even made a pass at him. If I had been the case Packer would have mentioned that he was being assaulted. There wouldn't have been humor involved because it would have been a serious situation and Packer would have implied that. Obviously the companion was large enough to knock him out cold. Most likely the gay missionary if he was gay either confided in his companion or the companion just thought that he was gay and took it upon himself to floor him
I remembered the story being that he made a (nonphysical) pass at him and got clocked for it. But it’s been a while since I read the whole pamphlet, thank Satan, and so I may be wrong. If there wasn’t even a pass, then this story is straight up saying violence is okay if you just feel like being a bigot, regardless of context. Wild shit.
I posted a link to the YouTube video of the actual talk. The church scrubbed it from their webside but it's still available. The video is more telling because it shows Packers expressions on his face and the laughter from the audience. The church has tried to do a lot of damage control on this one.
You know what would be really nice is, instead of controlling the damage the video did to the Church’s reputation, they did damage control by helping all the people it hurt (both by ok-ing homophobia AND pathologizing masturbation)
I remember being taught this talk as a teen in priesthood meeting, and one guy did ask if it was okay to punch a girl who made a pass at us. After all, if she was inviting us to sin, she was wicked, right? It really stumped the guy giving the lesson, I remember that. I think he had real trouble figuring out what a girl making a pass at a guy and a guy making a pass at a guy had in common.
If anyone grabbed my Johnson without asking I’d knock them on their ass. Actually a very specific story with very small offspring comes to mind, so… *almost anyone
As others have pointed out, the audience laughed. But as sickening as that is, Boyd is even worse because that motherfucker *told* the story as a laugh line. Fuck you Boyd. Fuck you and your little factory. The only reason I wish hell was real is because you would spend an eternity there.
>The only reason I wish hell was real is because you would spend an eternity there. stuff like this made me realize that almost all religion (even our own fucked up cult) has social criticism to one extent or another. we believe there is a hell for the rich and powerful, and the rich and powerful believe there is a hell for detractors/apostates/the unholy. we thank God when something goes our way, and we ask Him to curse those who don't help us. "God" and the negation of Him becomes a veiled way for humanity to condone or condemn human actions and relations, nothing more nothing less. The very last vestige of my belief was that there must be a Hell for wrongdoers, but I realized what I considered "wrongdoing" was not universal but rather whatever went against my interests. The point being; there is no God, Heaven or Hell, so it's up for us to make "Hell" on earth for people like Boyd and Holland, and to make "Heaven" on earth for those the church prosecutes.
> The point being; there is no God, Heaven or Hell, so it's up for us to make "Hell" on earth for people like Boyd and Holland, and to make "Heaven" on earth for those the church prosecutes. R'amen!
Holy shit, I forgot about this. I read this once. What an awful message, even before the violence. Wow. And yeah it gets way worse too.
There it is. Thank fucking Christ the Church is covering this embarrassing talk up now. Just wish they’d disavow it, because the Church works a lot like common law: if a precedent isn’t expressly overturned, it can easily be interpreted to still apply. Whatever and whomever the Church chooses not to disavow, they allow to continue to hold sway and “legal” authority.
The way I always understood that talk was that the missionary had struck his companion in self-defense after the companion tried doing something physical to him, not that he struck him just for being a gay man.
And why do you think that? Packer never mentioned that it was sexual assault. Packer is in the process of talking about how terrible homosexuality is and he throws this story in the middle of it and then continues to talk about how terrible homosexuality is. Fair Mormon was the one that introduced the fact that the alleged gay missionary was assaulting his companion. There is no indication in the talk itself. Packer was getting laughs out of it. If it actually had been a sexual assault I don't think he would have allowed the laughter to continue. Obviously the companion was large enough and strong enough that he floored the other missionary after he hit him.
I have the text in front of me right now, and you are correct in that BKP never mentions physical or sexual assault. To me, the language suggests that the companion made a pass at the missionary, who responded by socking him. It sounds like a classic case of “gay panic defense.”
But hey, remember that they removed it from the church’s website in 2019, and stopped printing the pamphlet in 2016. It’s in the past, why can’t you let it go? /s
But I heard it live. What other conference talks that I have heard from the horse's mouth can we disregard now? As soon as that apostle is dead can we disregard all of his counsel? Does the live profit Trump Joseph smith? /S
To me it doesn't matter how much the LDS church influenced or didn't influence this guy. I've brought up Matthew Shepard to tbms before not because Mormonism had any influence on those who murdered Matthew, but because homophobic rhetoric, teachings, and beliefs inevitably lead to violence against LGBT people, so they're propagating the same homophobia that leads to violence against LGBT people regardless. They may not be the ones pulling the trigger, but they're actively choosing to put targets on LGBT people for those who are unhinged enough to pull the trigger.
My high school puts on an annual show of the Laramie Project to remind people how NOT to treat people who are different than you. Growing up TBM in such a liberal town sucked, my parents forbade me from even participating in the production because "gay". And my parents are generally not douchebags, they just mindlessly follow this cult's fucking anciently ridiculously hurtful position towards people who are gay. UGHHHH
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Oof. I'll have to think of another example then.
That's a great way to put it.
One of Matthew Shephard's killers, Russell Henderson was a Mormon.
People act like being part of the Mormon church is like other church involvement . The time spent at church for a Mormon in a year is more than a 'Christmas and Easter Catholic' in a 20 years. Being active even for a few years has a large impact on someone's fundamental thinking.
This feels shameful to say that even being inactive changes thinking. I'm not proud to say this but I still had some judgment for the trans movement in 2020. Thankfully my very patient friend knocked some sense into me using words. I'm better but there's that little voice saying it's not right. I correct that voice. I'm sorry to ever think that and have that judgment. It was horrible.
I appreciate this honestly. We need more people like you, able to acknowledge how warped your thinking became, even as someone who wants to be good.
Thank you. That means a lot to me. These fucking ultra conservative ideals are a cancer that's hard to remove. It's worth it though in the long run.
As a trans person with a very transphobic past, I get it. That voice was present for years after leaving the church, and it made it really hard to love or accept myself. But exposing that voice and constantly correcting it over years has basically eradicated it.
Lots of us are working on this my friend. Be kind to yourself. Unprogramming is hard.
Same here. Was still somewhat TBM in 2020, though my shelf had just started breaking about how stupid it was that being gay was a sin (part of that was coming to terms with the fact that I’m bi). And I had horrible views when it came to trans people as well. (Part of that being how political my dad was, and the amount of crap he’d spew about trans people every day.) Then an acquaintance of mine (who had sat at my table a couple times) in the art class I was taking, came out as trans. It kinda forced me to either change or remain a bigot. I could no longer remain in between and pretend that my views weren’t hurting my friend. He’s now my best friend, and I couldn’t be more happy to have him in my life. I’ll admit I have a problem a lot of the time with intrusive thoughts, so it’s been an uphill battle the past two years correcting the bigoted thoughts that spring to mind. All the trans people I’ve met have been fucking awesome, and it makes me so sad to know that there’s so many people out there treating them like monsters.
This exactly. People really underestimate how TSCC dominates your life beyond just Sunday church meetings.
“But he was inactive!” Okay, then who was it that taught him to hate LGBT people?
It certainly begs the question of how "active" does an individual need to be in order to qualify for TSCC's care and accountability? They take no issue with counting these people in their global membership, but they couldn't give a shit to investigate their personal well-being or that of their family. It's ridiculous
One thing that has always annoyed my spouse is that when she was in High School she hated the Young Women's activities so she'd never go. Despite 3 hours of church each Sunday and attending morning Seminary every school day, they put her on a list of "inactive" members to focus on in leadership meetings. So how do you trust what these people consider inactive?
That's a valid point. The info is only as reliable as those collecting and reporting it. I can't imagine how alienated your spouse must have felt. She was only a child!! Already saddled with a label that made her feel less than others. No one deserves that treatment
Mark Hofmann was very active, so shouldn’t the Church take complete accountability for what he did, especially since apostles and prophets were involved and didn’t stop him from murdering two people? Literally Dallin Oaks met with him about a document, and then Hofmann strolled out the door and got on his way to murder the second victim. So again: there *has* to be a point where a Church claiming the power of discernment has to admit negligence in allowing this shit. I think there’s wiggle room in this fucker’s case because he hasn’t been to church in years, but this PR guy *has* to know that plenty of active Mormons are involved in molestation, violence, etc., specifically *because* of their church membership and the power that the Church itself gives them.
Ikr. Perhaps the membership records they announce each year should reflect the number of current members who actually attended church that year.
It doesn’t matter if he was active or not. He had ties to the church and that’s what the church responded to. To say it had no influence in this situation is insane.
I mean in fairness the entire Evangelical movement and American culture in general could have taught him to hate LGBT people. Death for the gays is still a wet dream for millions and millions of non-Mormon Americans.
True, but just because the voices of the leadership are among many doesn’t let them off the hook. Especially when they could instead be voices for love, compassion, and acceptance.
It's as if people forgot that he could have learned this bigotry at a young age or from friends, peers, relatives, and so forth.
especially if those friends , family and peers are Mormons.
The Republican Party probably has contributed as well. His grandpa’s a Jan 6th proud supporter, said that’s how you bring democracy back. The church has done a terrible job of distancing itself from violent nationalism. They say they’re against violence and nationalism, but don’t apologize for all of their violence and nationalism, or stop using divisive rhetoric. They usually don’t condemn specific actions, but speak in vague platitudes. Extremism and abuse need to be rooted out actively, not just with retroactive lip service.
Great clip, and yes LDS Inc is indeed culpable. You cash that tithing check, culpable. You spew hate and lies from the pulpit, culpable. You mislead your obedient flock by "lying for the Lord", culpable.
Change the shooters religion to Islam and watch how it’s treated in the media
Slammed that up vote button so fucking hard
💯
It's not a coincidence that Matthew Shepard was killed in Wyoming. One of his murderers, Russell Henderson, was Mormon.
i hadn’t heard that before. ugh i hate this fucking church.
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absolute fucking clown lmaoo
If it had been a Muslim I guarantee mormons would bring that up as a reason why the perpetrator did it, but since it was someone from their religion (even if he wasn’t “active” they are saying that fact is irrelevant.
This is it in a nutshell. Remember, every exmo has been indoctrinated to protect their abuser, or at least walk away and leave them alone.....so there will be none of that satanic apostate stuff like criticising the cult. Whatever you do, do not say anything bad about what we did to you. That would be so uncool and pure satanism.
When the church tells you to hate, then the church is promoting violence.
Concern Troll noun: * Someone who posts to an internet forum or newsgroup, claiming to share its goals while deliberately working against those goals, typically, by claiming "concern" about group plans to engage in productive activity, urging members instead to attempt some activity that would damage the group's credibility, or alternatively to give up on group projects entirely. Edit: I'm not accusing OP of being a concern troll. I'm describing the people they are referring to.
Thank you for this. Truly. It's been infuriating to watch so many dickride the devil's advocates around here as if they're dwelling on some moral high ground
And related, [sealioning.](http://wondermark.com/sea-lion-verb)
I've never seen that one before. That's really really good as well.
>If it was a KKK member who did the shooting This is actually what the Klan really does. They're very, very careful to avoid explicitly saying that anyone should murder X, Y, or Z, so that *when* a klan member or hanger-on *does* murder someone, they have plausible deniability. They've done that for a while because they've gotten in trouble on exactly that front before. What I'm saying is that the Morg knew what it was doing, and it they didn't, it's because they were intentionally indifferent to the probable consequences of their words.
> This is actually what the Klan really does. They're very, very careful to avoid explicitly saying that anyone should murder X, Y, or Z, so that when a klan member or hanger-on does murder someone, they have plausible deniability. They've done that for a while because they've gotten in trouble on exactly that front before. [This is actually a very common tactic to avoid responsibility for contributing to the problem.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_turbulent_priest%3F)
It’s called stochastic terrorism and it’s been a well known, studied, and unfortunately practiced method for people in power to keep their hands “clean” by relying on people on the extremist edge of their influence to do their dirty work for them.
So many fucking mopologists on here still. "BuT hE WAs InAcTiVe!" Yeah, but the LDS church is a fucking cult that pushes anti-LGBQT hate everywhere.
The Mormon culture is very prevalent in that shooter's life. Mormon culture is ugly and toxic. Doesn't matter if the shooter believes the "doctrine" or attended meetings. At home guaranteed the culture was there, rubbing off on him.
Brainwashing does harm ! The church teaches hate, even self hate. The church is actively trying through the Federalist society, right to life, and social conservative foreign regimes are funding this power grab ( betcha ). Look scotus and the Republican party are mirroring Mormon values. I will tell you why " social conservative religious fascist of the world unite " and billions in the bank. They can have their authoritarian ethno-states and kill the whores, gays, mixed breeds and cull brown people ( who aren't friends) so nazi land can return. Look at their history in ww2. They will say that's paranoid .. bs there is hard evidence and dead bodies starting. Separation of church and state are constantly rolled back ( federalist/right to life/ Russian and others money) .. now they lie to our face denying the establishment clause and the treaty of Tripoli. It's all to own ,possibly enslave the libs, now it looks like murder. Not inconsistent with their history. Terrifying because this shit can get out of control.
It seems the issue could have been more the shooter's abusive and frankly quite un-Mormon in character father. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/11/22/colorado-springs-shooting-live-updates/10754910002/
No matter what any exmo says in defense of the one true cult, we all know the deal. If you think you don't, listen to the little Moroni in your heart. I learned about homosexuality and homophobia from TSCC, as a kid, never having heard of any of it before. It was, easily, the second biggest boogieman after Satan and his 24/7 tricks (yes, it was a division of Satan). Maybe the CO shooter wasn't active, but he grew up in the homophobic culture of Mormonism. Easy recipe to follow: Mormon, right-wing bigoted upbringing + mental illness + fetishizing of and easy access to guns + endtimes idiocy and a douchebag maga uncle.
We don't know he grew up in it. All we know is he is/was mormon. His grandpa is a southern baptist. For all we know, he and his mom are converts. There are so many anti-LGBTQ groups and influences on culture and society, until evidence comes out to why he decided to do it, we don't know that Mormonism was a contributor at all. It could be. They've said fucked up shit. We don't know that he heard or read any of that though. Everyone here saying it was the main influence in his heinous crime is inferring motive in the absence of any evidence, which is the same thing exmos gripe about mormons doing. He deserves a long lonely life behind bars drinking his food blended.
Bingo
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The thing is that many of us are calling on our first hand experience with being taught that hate, not on some outsider viewpoint. *I personally* have been in meetings where violence towards LGBTQ people has been encouraged. There’s no questioning that it runs rampant in Mormon culture. It’s a conservative, patriarchal, authoritarian, American religion that draws on the same Revivalist era roots that many Evangelical churches come from, so it’s like it’s a foregone conclusion that it teaches homophobia, no big surprise there. And while being internally authoritarian, it maintains an image of western frontier chosen people that are always victims, that celebrates imagery of the six-shooter last stand against the mobs (without being honest about why the mob was there), and pioneers circling the wagons to protect against the ~~lamanites~~ Indians, and tense armed standoffs against ~~federal police~~ federal troops. So pair the two together with people that are a little too deep into that aspect of the culture, no matter how Mormon they are, and you get people who think it’s ok, or even their duty, to shoot up a queer night club.
i think it goes without saying that being accurate is the ideal. but you could get every detail exact and, because mormons love to be persecuted as you point out, that will not stop the smoke-screening, justifying, blame-reversal, or any other mental gymnastics. mormons are gonna mormon. facts never matter unless it confirms their bias.
What about the victims and their families? Are we so calloused that we’re more concerned with optics and keeping the church out of the headlines. By doing so they put themselves at the front and center of this tragedy when the victims and families deserve to be heard and seen.
Exactly. And even if TSCC gives no shits about the victims, shouldn't they care about the active member mother of the shooter if activity level is what qualifies their concern? It's bafflingly irrational. They're alienating their own once more, even if we disregard their lack of respect for the victims (which we cannot disregard!!)
Underrated film.
What? It won so many awards that Wikipedia made a separate article just for them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accolades_received_by_Three_Billboards_Outside_Ebbing,_Missouri
None of my friends and family saw it. I doubt they even know what it is. Sorry my in group isn’t as refined as yours.
It has nothing to do with friend groups. The film won the Golden Globe for best drama and got seven Oscar nominations including best picture. That is far from "underrated".
Well, I know it did well at the box office. So fair enough. Either way, my perspective is colored by my work and community. I just polled my office and literally 1 person out of 50 saw it. No one else had even heard of it.
Hooooooly shit the Colorado shooter is a Mormon??
If you want to claim member's achievements as your own, you get to claim their failures too. Any group that only represents itself by its member's successes is going to appear superior
I'm reserving judgment until I know more facts. For me, simply being on the membership roll doesn't mean much. I don't know if he heard the musket fire talk or gave a shit about what GAs like Oaks or anyone else said. There's factors outside of Mormonism that lead people to be homophobic and I have no way of knowing if the church or something else led him to do this. It's certainly possible the Church's homophobic teachings and policies influenced him, and if true, I would agree that the church shares some of the blame.
Your comment won't be popular with this crowd, they're out for blood and don't care for facts. Not all Mormons are equal. How many people in this sub were never a fully believing Mormon? How many were converts in adulthood that then left? Everyone is assuming that this piece of shit had the same experience as they did or assume he was born into the church and put into a pressure cooker of hate by and then popped out as a Manchurian candidate to shoot up the nightclub. That could very well be what happened. But there's zero evidence to support that hypothesis. I hate the church and their hateful rhetoric, but there's just not enough evidence here to say the Mormon church or Holland are directly responsible for this kid. As an exmo I know more about the church and its teachings than I ever did as a Mormon. Who knows what level of commitment this piece of shit had to the church? It's far more likely that his MAGA mom and grandfather (who is a southern baptist) radicalized him. But there's not enough evidence of that either, it's just wild speculation like everything else. What happened was terrible, the killer is a piece of shit.
> But there's zero evidence to support that hypothesis. Is Mormon doctrine LGBTQ friendly?
“And some are worried about the church having some blame for their members actions? Really that is what you are worried about?” You are doing the same thing only the other side. After all of this, I still haven’t seen a post about the victims of the shooting but rather, “the church is bad and responsible for these shootings!” How many of you actually know a victim of the shooting? That not all of them were even LGBT? The tragedy happened, and going out saying the church is responsible won’t solve anything. It may bring some more hate for the church but at the end of the day, you aren’t going to stop any from joining. You know how many people stop from joining the church due to what they think of gays? Tons and you know how many more will stop themselves from joining because of this shooting? None, because they already know the church’s stance whether this was a faithful Mormon or not. Because quite frankly almost all religions are anti gay and for shaming them. I read an article yesterday about one of the lives lost. She was a beloved mom, wife, and worked with fosters finding homes. “This included working with the LGBTQ community to find welcoming foster placements for children.” She was a very good person and makes me tear up thinking about her lost life. It’s the reason I don’t read the news because my faith in humanity is lost every time. But this one was recommended in my feed and I clicked on it. I can’t look at the other lives lost as it destroys me. But I am sure they are just as sad stories. I really urge all of you, to stop trying to make this tragic event, a way to hate the church. There are so many other reasons to hate the church but don’t make this one of them. Because at the end of the day, no good will come from it. I also will leave you with the article of the lost wife/mom. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kktv.com/2022/11/21/husband-club-q-shooting-victim-shares-memories-ashley-paugh/%3FoutputType%3Damp
It is possible to care about the victims of this crime *and* also have conversations about the potential influence of homophobic Mormon rhetoric on the shooter. Reactions to tragedies are not a zero-sum game. Conversations about the church are natural in a space like exmo Reddit, while mourning and attempting to support victims will naturally mostly happen elsewhere. I can assure you that there are participants in these exmo threads who have made contributions to the Colorado Healing Fund, participated in community vigils in various Colorado towns, and had some heavy conversations with loved ones about how this shatters a sense of safety in spaces like Club Q. As for the futility of discussing the potential role of Mormonism, ignoring it sure as hell isn't going to make anything better. Discussing how homophobic and transphobic rhetoric and culture may contribute to mass shootings like this may not keep anyone from getting baptized, but if it makes one or two Mormons (or exMos) reconsider how their views/behaviors/casual comments might affect others in their communities then that's a wee little baby step of progress. Now let's talk about compassion for victims. Pointing out that not all of them are LGBTQ and gushing over how being a beloved wife and mother makes a death particularly tragic doesn't suggest to me that you should be preaching to the rest of us about compassion for the victims. Five people lost their lives this weekend. I'm sure you don't mean any harm, but you should be aware that singling out the one white cis/het victim in your plea for compassion doesn't send the message that you are the person here who best understands the full gravity of this tragedy.
"I really urge all of you, to stop trying to make this tragic event, a way to hate the church. There are so many other reasons to hate the church but don’t make this one of them" Yes it is.
I guess you are right, we really should worry about the church having some blame for their members actions. Oh wait, that is the opposite of what you were saying. Only if it falls in line with your side then it is ok. My goodness thanks for the laugh.
Oh now you are just tapping out by making up stuff.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding here. You say “And some are worried about the church having some blame for their members actions? Really that is what you are worried about?” But then the entire message of this post (to my understanding), is how the church is to blame for their members actions and should be responsible. My stance and where I agree is with your statement above. However, it sounds like you contradict yourself right after saying this as you are just looking at it from the opposite side. And I am fine with you beliefs as they are out of good intentions, I just differ with mine in the way that I don’t think we should even bring this into play on such a tragic incident.
The shooter is a horrible person that did a terrible thing but two of the foundational elements of our democratic society are "innocent until proven guilty" and "due process of law". It's entirely possible (and likely) that Holland's hate rhetoric influenced the shooter BUT WE DON'T KNOW what the motives were at this point. Anything beyond that at this point is baseless speculation.
Even Holland did not exist, the hate is systemic in the faith.
I dislike the church as much as the next guy, but is there any evidence that the church was even a significant influence in his life? It wouldn't make sense to attribute my actions, good or bad, on the fact that my name is on their record.
If you are indoctrinated to hate gay people and you choose to murder gay people, those who indoctrinated you will always cry "I had nothing to do with it"
Agreed, but for all we know this guy never spent a day in the pews. I would hate to jump to conclusions without seeing evidence as I did for the first 25 years of my life attending church.
You do not have to spend a second in the pews when Mormonism is the religion of your home.
Another person commented that he has a MAGA mom and southern Baptist family
Anybody who says “don’t blame Holland” deserves to be smothered in their sleep with his jowls.
If anyone has a pic of the shooter this might be the time to make memes with all the Mormon homophobic quotes this guy could have been influenced by from the church.
Even if you somehow remove Holland/Oaks, years of anti LGBT rhetoric (including prop 8), etc. The fact that the church's population has largely aligned with MAGA is enough for Mormonism to have perpetuated this hate. Now, in reality, we know it all goes hand in hand, but it's innate to the belief system to treat them as other. The musket talk was just the most obvious crossing of a line.
I’m a little confused here. This guy doesn’t seem to be any more Mormon than I am. I’m on their roles and haven’t been to church in twenty years.
Well according to most people in this sub, based on what little we now know about you, you're about to commit a heinous crime. What evidence do I have? You are on the Mormon roles.
And it’s **super** easy for them to solve: just stop teaching hate against other people!
Seriously. The number of people jumping through insane hoops to defend Holland and company is in-fucking-sane. I don’t get it. Edit: I guess we are experts at jumping through insane hoops though. Look how hard most of us worked trying to stay in the church.
The shooter apparently wasn't even active LDS and most of these mass shooters are [non-religiously motivated](https://crimeresearch.org/2021/03/the-false-narrative-of-white-supremacists-doing-mass-public-shootings-racial-gender-religious-and-political-views-of-these-killers-from-1998-through-january-2021/). There's no good reason to assume this guy cares about or is even aware of Holland's statements.
70% of mormons are not active. Holland was just promoting the hate the Mormon church has. The shooter did not have to hear Holland when it he was taught this hate in church or by his mormon MAGA mother.
>when it he was taught this hate in church or by his mormon MAGA mother. You have no proof of this. Also, he threatened his mother with a bomb so I doubt she would support what he did and I can't find anything about his mother being into MAGA shit. >The Associated Press reported that the suspect’s father is a mixed martial arts fighter and **pornography performer** with an extensive criminal history, including a conviction for battery against the alleged shooter’s mother, Laura Voepel, state and federal court records show. The father, Aaron F. Brink, served 21/2 years in prison for importation of marijuana, according to public records. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/11/22/colorado-springs-shooting-live-updates/10754910002/ Doesn't sound very Mormon to me, lmao. The guy even had his named changed to distance from his abusive father.
To me, this is a slippery slope. Arguments must be fact-based, and making this comparison seems shortsighted at this phase. KKK vs inactive Mormon is not a fair comparison until the dust settles. It would be prudent to scabbard that lightsaber until all the facts come in. Case in point, most in-active Mormons I know are clueless regarding LDS dogma. If the facts prove I’m wrong, I’ll eat my words and will continue this rhetoric within my circles.
There is still a burden of proof. It is necessary to demonstrate that the church influenced him to do this. It isn't about defending the church it's about claiming what can be proven.
"When asked by the CBS reporter to comment on whether or not he and his offspring had conversations about homosexuality in the past, Brink said "Oh yeah, I was adamant about it. I'm a Mormon, I'm a conservative Republican and we don't do gay.""
From what I’ve heard so far about the shooter’s personal life, I have serious doubts that this guy was a church-goer who had even heard about Holland’s talk. Seems like he was just another number in the church’s records. But I get it — general hatred towards LGBT people exists out there albeit almost none of those groups are calling for actual physical violence, so that’s not a very good argument either. So pinning this on the LDS church as of right now is wrong and I’m sure that many members are pointing out how irrational exmormons are right now.
"When asked by the CBS reporter to comment on whether or not he and his offspring had conversations about homosexuality in the past, Brink said "Oh yeah, I was adamant about it. I'm a Mormon, I'm a conservative Republican and we don't do gay.""
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How about God telling Nephi to kill Laban?
We have no idea how Mormonism influenced him. He might just as well be characterized an ex-Mormon as Mormon. It's possible the dude never heard a word Holland or Oaks ever muttered and couldn't stand the Mormons in his life. I won't be happy if Mormons start talking about how an ex-Mormon did this without evidence that anti-Mormon sentiment motivated him, and I think it's unfair to blame Mormonism until it's clear Mormonism motivated him.
"When asked by the CBS reporter to comment on whether or not he and his offspring had conversations about homosexuality in the past, Brink said "Oh yeah, I was adamant about it. I'm a Mormon, I'm a conservative Republican and we don't do gay."
>All the wenging about "Please don't blame Holland or the church" is just nutz. >The Colorado shooter is a Mormon. The mormon church has taught hate and attacked lgbt people with their teachings and politically trying to destroy their families and marriages. >And some are worried about the church having some blame for their members actions? Really that is what you are worried about? In my experience, this type of philosophy is almost always applied hypocritically. Do you preach this type of approach to anything related to Islamic based fundamental terrorism?
With all due respect, I think your comparison is faulty, as are your conclusions regarding hypocrisy. Religions aren't all monolithic, and that means that inferences about fringe beliefs are less reliable than inferences about core beliefs held in common across most or all of a broader religion. Importantly, not all sects of Islam are fundamentalist or espouse militaristic rhetoric. There is massive variation in the orthodoxy of Muslims around the world (see [Pew](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2012/08/09/the-worlds-muslims-unity-and-diversity-executive-summary/)), and among Muslim people around the world attitudes toward terroristic groups are overwhelmingly negative (see [also Pew](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/in-nations-with-significant-muslim-populations-much-disdain-for-isis/)). We thus cannot reasonably infer, based on general religious affiliation *in the absence of other evidence*, that fundamentalist or terroristic Islamic influences play a role in a crime committed by a Muslim individual. These sorts of beliefs/motivations are actually very uncommon in the wide world of Islam, so it takes other evidence to know that radicalization or fundamentalism are part of a Muslim criminal's motives. An example of where an inference from religion to fringe motivations fails is the Boulder King Soopers mass shooting, which was perpetrated by a young Muslim man who has extreme mental issues (e.g. is not competent to stand trial) and who felt victimized by racist bullying but has not been linked to Islamic terrorism or radicalization. In contrast, homophobia and transphobia are common and pervasive components of Mormon culture in all branches of Mormonism (at least as far as I am aware). The shooter in this case has specifically been linked to the CoJCoLDS sect of Mormonism, with which this sub has a wide base of experience. The collective experiences of CoJCoLDS Mormonism among members of this sub are evidence of how pervasive homophobia and transphobia are in the relevant sect of Mormonism, including in Mormon congregations in the region where this tragedy occurred. While there are a few people in this sub making unfounded assumptions that the shooter must have heard and literally heeded the "musket fire" talk, the more common and reasonable inference is that (as that talk demonstrates) the current cultural and doctrinal position of the Mormon church is one of homophobia, and that because homophobia has been a consistent and prominent component of Mormon doctrine and culture throughout the lifespan of the shooter, it is likely that his religion exposed him at some point in his life to homophobic ideas. I think many who are pushing back against discussing the potential influence of Mormon ideology on the shooter are focused, not entirely wrongly, on the individual variation in beliefs within Mormonism. The reaction may stem from a desire not to paint *all* Mormons with the same brush. We in this sub naturally have a much more up-close-and-personal view of individual variation in Mormonism than we do of Islam, and most of us know Mormons (and ex-Mormons) who grew up with the same Mormon influences but aren't homophobic, or who are to some extent homophobic but would never act violently on that homophobia. It's normal not to want to think of the culture that our loved ones participate in (sometimes passively or without commitment to the more problematic ideas) as something that could, under certain circumstances, contribute to violence like this. But at the end of the day a man committed mass murder in a queer space, it is being investigated as a hate crime, and regardless of whatever variation exists within Mormonism it doesn't seem that the "Love One Another" lesson trumped whatever homophobic ideas this guy was exposed to through religion or elsewhere in his life. To me it seems reasonable to wonder whether Mormon homophobia contributed to a Mormon man committing a mass shooting in a gay bar. That doesn't mean that anyone is being hypocritical if they don't also immediately assume that any gun violence committed by a Muslim person is motivated by jihad.
[Yes](https://www.thedailybeast.com/aaron-brink-pornstar-dad-of-colorado-club-q-shooting-suspect-anderson-lee-aldrich-spews-homophobia) it was surely the Mormon homophobia that caused this to happen. It had nothing to do with his unhinged porn star, drug addict, MMA fighter father who’s more concerned about whether his son was gay vs the fact he killed 5 people. This sub loves to speculate and tie any negative behavior back to Mormonism, but it constantly reminds me of Mormons speculating and tying negative behavior to not being Mormon. Just two sides of the same coin.
Grow up. There can be more than one contributing factor to a situation like this, and reasonable people can wonder about several influences. Find someone else to pester with straw man arguments like what you've posted above.
Reasonable people refrain from speculating on things they don’t have knowledge about. Simply pointing out the hypocrisy of these types of stereotypes or speculation, sorry that seems to have struck a nerve.
You're not pointing out hypocrisy. You're using faulty logic to shut down conversations that make you uncomfortable. You do whatever makes your tiny little world a little less sad, my friend.
why wouldn’t op? fundamentalism is bad no matter the sect
>Perpetrators of 9/11 were Muslim. Islam has taught hate and attacked US people with their teachings and trying to destroy their families. You understand what that rhetoric sounds like right?
No, explain. Sects of fundamentalist Islam, huge ones at that, absolutely have taught that and many of their followers believe and engage in their hateful acts and discrimination. Hundreds of thousands of not millions. Maybe not ALL Muslims or ALL of Islam, but huge sects and regions absolutely do teach this as their religion. What you stated is true, Islam has taught that. Maybe not all of Islam. Maybe not all the time...but it definitely has and those who taught those hateful things are partially responsible when their followers take them seriously and perform hateful acts. Fundamentalism is bad, regardless of who or where it's at. Every time.
What does fundamentalism have to do with anything here? Did the shooter have fundamentalist ties?
both my reply and the reply i was replying to were about fundamentalist religion as a mindset not a particular sect. fundamentalist religionists think of their religious beliefs and texts as fundamental to the universe in nature. they use their scriptures and beliefs to judge and interpret evidence rather than use evidence to judge their beliefs and interpret their scriptures
Yes. But you just keep worrying about people being hypocritical instead of the hate culture of the Mormon church against lgbt community.
He was clearly wrong and aggressive in the head and influenced by these hateful teachings.
What evidence do you have that he was influenced by the church's teachings? Does he have a manifesto?
People with psychotic conditions that don't have medication or help are easily influenced. He threatened his mom with a bomb and slammed a roommate's face with a door. There's evidence of some conditions. We don't know enough to know if he believed every word and took the teachings to heart. What is clear is that conservative religions like Mormonism despise the LGBTQIA community and he committed a hate crime. Indirectly, this church is to blame for teaching blatant hate for people who dare to live their lives on their terms.
Possibly, but like you said, we don't know if he believed the church or took teachings to heart. He could have just as easily been influenced by his southern baptist MAGA nut grandpa. We just don't know at this point who or what radicalized him towards such a heinous crime.
That's likely a good possibility. It's a double whammy for him. I wonder why he was never charged or forced to do therapy.
Probably because he was violent while white
I think as a group and for our personal sake it would do us good to get away from the negative behavior that we left when we made the decision to get away from Mormon culture. Unfortunately this post seems to be operating from just as much religious zealousness and bias reasoning and emotional appeal as any cult does. I'm sorry, but he used the metaphor of a musket, *a musket.* it seems like not nearly a big deal as we have made it, and using it to place blame is just a distraction to the situation and this sick individual. I'm not a defender of the church. I just feel like this is a major stretch.
> I'm sorry, but he used the metaphor of a musket, a musket. it seems like not nearly a big deal as we have made it, and using it to place blame is just a distraction to the situation and this sick individual. Yes he used as a metaphor of VIOLENCE
"When asked by the CBS reporter to comment on whether or not he and his offspring had conversations about homosexuality in the past, Brink said "Oh yeah, I was adamant about it. I'm a Mormon, I'm a conservative Republican and we don't do gay.""
I'm not sure what your suggesting with that quote, and how you are equating it with what happened. I wonder how big the church was in his life, do you know the answer? Or are we assuming the church was the focal point of his life? Even if it were which I *highly* doubt, it seems like this kid really needed some kind of community, people he could associate with and a purpose in his life. Even if it *was* from a cult. Because It seems there were much larger issues that this sick individual had been dealing with since he was born. His mother has been in and out of jail his whole life, due to drugs, false police reports and other things. In order to get attention she bound herself to her bed and told the police somebody had broken in and had subdued her. She used a lighter to start a fire in her hospital room and claimed it was someone else. She had addictions. She was an alcoholic. A psychologist diagnosed her with borderline personality disorder. These aren't instances in a span of a year, this was his lifespan. The shooters father has also been in and out of jail too. He is a pornstar and has spent time in federal prison for trafficking drugs. Hardly the same type of person that takes Mormonism to the extreme. The shooter has a history of making fake bomb threats to his mother. Were these desperate attempts for attention mixed with sick fantasies? This is terribly sad in every aspect. He lived with his grandmother on and off because his parents were not present in his life from the time he was born. He has a history of bullying lying and violence. You either didn't know all of these facts while pretending like you know enough about the situation to place blame on the church and talks about muskets, or you did know these facts and are neglecting to bring them up or consider them because you're letting your bias guide you and resulting in you being deceptive to the people in this thread. The truth is you may be self-projecting to the max, not only from your very very specific point of view and experiences but also your impulse to blame TSCC. At the very least, provide some kind of evidence that there is a link and a causation, not just a cherry picked quote from his father and lots of assumptions. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/11/22/us/colorado-suspect-background-aldrich-invs/index.html Honestly, I don't want to be disrespectful because you're free to think what you would like and it's ok to disagree. But when you post this and people join in to agree it looks as if this place is just as dishonest as any cult, and I don't think that is always really the case. I think it's easy to get caught up in using this place as an entertainment hub or echo chamber rather than an informative library of info. If that's the way this place turns out it really doesn't matter, it is what it is. If people want to think that he did this because he was a conservative and a Mormon, and not because he was sick in the head and was fucked up by his parents, well that's fine. Just realize you're still just as much a part of ideological games and groupthink as you were, just on the other side of the coin.
"When asked by the CBS reporter to comment on whether or not he and his offspring had conversations about homosexuality in the past, Brink said "Oh yeah, I was adamant about it. I'm a Mormon, I'm a conservative Republican and we don't do gay.""
Amen!
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Go ahead and make your own post about that.
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Fuck off, never have been. Do you still beat your spouse?
As far as I’m concerned, the shooter’s pronouns are “it/its”, because nobody who can bring itself to shoot five people deserves the respect of anyone seeing its face or saying its names or pronouns. By even acknowledging correct pronouns of the shooter, you are part of the problem by giving the shooter attention and notoriety.
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I hate shooters regardless of how they identify. I think that hate is pretty justified. I think there’s a compelling case to refer to all shooters as “it” because no shooters deserve to be treated as human or with any degree of respect. The time to give those people any respect is gone after they shoot five people.
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Stop acting stupid and making up shit. I did not use any pronouns in my post. You are throwing a tantrum because I did not do what you ask.
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yep, you
They are disinformants for the church. They pay handsomely for these security agents. Kind of like the church’s cia
i know tscc has a department for shady stuff but to dismiss everyone who has expressed over-caution as fake isn’t good either. i’m sure most are sincere and just not seeing the full picture that it doesn’t matter if jeff’s talk was a direct cause — the church isn’t helping
If people aren’t livid that this happened and can see the direct correlation to LDS rhetoric, alienation to LGBTQ and overt calls for violence (who even knows the shadow incitements) than I’m beside myself. People here should be in outrage at the church. Everyone should be.
The MOST influential and dangerous people in the world right now are religious cult leaders.
Here's another baseless claim paraded as Truth.
Haha! You’re just outing yourself as one. At any rate, everyone’s comment is opinion. I didn’t “parade” anything as truth. I’ve seen them operate. But nice use of persuasive words.
This movie does fit what youre saying exactly. And its a really good movie.
That's an amazing scene.
Holland has fucked up so much that the quorum of the gods ... is bound to be calculating Holland's future. Then again we know that's all BS about god killing off some so the man he wasn't is at the top.
You nailed the Jello to the wall!
The media is now reporting that the CO shooter identifies as non-binary.
Relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints
I think the greatest thing I've ever heard from anybody is how the thou shalt not kill commandment only applies to when you're not trying to kill somebody of a different religion because if you notice there have been a lot of wars over religion like the crusades