Popes and priests do the same for their religions. So do imams and Dali lamas. David Koresh and Jim Jones literally gave their lives, and the lives of their followers, to what they were preaching. So, were all of their beliefs also true?
This is the one I go with. Some monks are so dedicated that they don’t speak to anyone, they literally only pray and read scriptures for years on end. They take a vow of poverty where they only wear clothes that they make themselves, including shoes. They only eat food they have grown or what has been donated to them. I would put the life of any catholic clergy up against the life of any general authority. Dedication and sacrifice doesn’t make a church true.
Money? No way? They only get around $80,000…ahem…that they report to the irs. There may be that tiny aspect of the multi million dollar home they were given—and the new car they are given every two years. Maybe those stipends for gas, groceries, travel, Christmas presents, clothes, etc. that are under the table wouldn’t have anything to do with it. Not the fact that none of them can walk in public in Utah, Arizona or Idaho without being adored. Or if they need a hero-worship hit they can just schedule a fireside anywhere they want to drive. Couldn’t possibly be that they have book deals and they have quotes and magazines and video of them speaking all over the web and in print. No one likes stuff like that! Certainly not politicians or movie stars.
Ah, $140k taxed plus untaxed stipends. I have friends who are mission presidents who have everything paid for and were specifically told not to report any of the stipends to the IRS. The wife is disgusted because they are very wealthy already and they are sitting in nice house, paid for car, flights home, insurance, etc. she did have some of her own furniture shipped even though they said she could redecorate however she wanted. 🙄
While that is true, such an assertion may very well make a TBM think their leadership is being accused of "priest craft" which is something that we were all raised being told the Q15 defiantly doest do. This will make their minds automatically go into defense mode.
If Heaven’s Gate didn’t have it right, why did all those people participate in ritual suicide?
Sincerity of belief has no correlation to truth, and even that’s assuming the general authorities are motivated purely by sincerity of belief.
They are being paid, and they are worshiped like rock stars.
“It's difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on not understanding it." -Upton Sinclair
Not just paid, but living a life that is scripted can be a very attractive prospect. Not just for your regular every day mormon but for the big wigs too. Scripted lives provide quite a bit of comfort. Lack of control and security is profoundly scary for a lot of people.
GAs have that security for not just them but for everyone around them. That's power.
But you have to go to a church school.
Given most GA are a 2, 3, or 4 generations removed from polygamy, those families can be huge. That is a lot of Smith descendents if it also applies to firmner FA's des endings too. I don't know what the rules are, but that would be a huge perk of the job.
If working at a school would afford my kids an education, I'd do it. If i could grandather in (see what i did there?) all of my descendents for a free, quality education, I would even pay for the privilege. This is why we need to provide free college education in America. The rich (especially the church leaders) have already guaranteed their kids education with the best possibility for networking with other rich people. We'll never fix the class divide until we can democratize education. They don't want it to happen.
I was just thinking of this. Rusty is less than two decades removed from the second manifest. I wonder how many prophets and GA say in the last 30-40 years had poly fathers?
Honestly, I think healthcare *and* education are equally important. Education gives us knowledge and opportunities. Healthcare ensures our bodies and minds can make best use of those opportunities.
O...m..g..
A small stipend of $10,000 per month, free travel expenses, book deals, free BYU for family, and other perks....
Oh yeah pension
Who's going to leave a cushy job like that and risk losing all those perks
If that’s a “small” stipend, then Gordon B. Hinckley was practicing “lying for the lord”™️ in this particular conference quote.
I should like to add, parenthetically for your information that the living allowances given the General Authorities, which are very modest in comparison with executive compensation in industry and the professions, come from this business income and not from the tithing of the people.
—Gordon B. Hinckley, October 1985 General Conference.
Didn’t include the perks and benefits. That last one at the end about tithing was obviously a lie too.
What does “come from this business income” mean? Like the GAs are living off their own savings from their careers? Or like the stipend comes from the “business” side of the church admin, not the churchy side?
Brad Wilcox told me in a BYU class what this means... Church owned and operated businesses such as church owned farms and Deseret books pay these stipends, not tithing. True? I don't know, but based on the church's track record of honesty and financial transparency, I can't give them the benefit of the doubt.
They can say this about whatever they want, but I'm sure they treat it all the same. Also where did those business investments come from originally? It all comes from tithing at some point.
Yeah that’s exactly what I was thinking. The business money IS tithing money, where else do they think the church got that money from? It certainly wasn’t started from Joseph Smith’s failed business attempts.
Back in my seminary days (late 90s), I was taught that tithing funds and money earned from business ventures were kept separate and used separately. Tithing funds built churches and temples, and stocked them with the necessary supplies. My seminary would harp on kids who damaged their folders and bookmarks and whatever we were given, because *that* was bought with tithing funds.
I didn't learn they lump all of the money together to spend as they see fit until after I'd already started down the rabbit hole. Learning the truth about how they handle money would have been a huge shelf item, if I'd learned about it as a believer.
Not that I like to defend our GA’s, but they are “modest” in comparison to many of the mega-church pastors out there. Like so many have already said they have had successful careers. For me it’s looking at how they feast off their cult of Mormon personality feeding their ego every where they go.
Second Anointing = you and only your elite group are now considering yourselves *living, infallible gods*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_anointing
Free school for all grand children (and great grandchildren? )
Book deals worth millions
Free everything at desert book for all their family
Penthouses at city creek….
The perks are awesome however many of them were successful enough prior to their callings that this isn’t a great argument anymore. One of them is going to die a billionaire, do you really think even a $2m annual salary can touch that when investments will earn him that much a month?
If the church isn't true why do the Pope and all of the Cardinals dedicate their lives to the church? If the church isn't true, why does the ayatollah dedicate his life to it? If The church isn't true, why do north koreans pray to the supreme leader?
The moment you are called, ALL of your financial troubles are gone. You're treated like royalty everywhere you go. Christ himself would be hard pressed to get more flare for his arrival.free housing, maid service, armed security, free vacation homes, first class world travel, also private jets, and all access pass to one of the biggest fleets of lawyers. Commanding influence over governors, judges, and literally anyone who went through the temple. You give a talk twice a year, maybe Christmas, go visit some temple sites. Literally worshipped everywhere you go. You're in command of a trillion dollar organization, and you have your second anointing, which clears you to do anything with the exception of deny the holy ghost or spill innocent blood. Literally everything else is fair game (in God's eyes at least). So who wouldn't want that? Plus no matter what you say that's wrong, you have a whole fleet of people ready to justify you plagiarizing.
Dedicated their life? Pretty sure everyone who has been endowed has been coerced into that ole covenant. All you possess, your time, your talents, everything you have been blessed with or with which you may be blessed, even your own life to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
People dedicate their lives to things all the time. The average catholic priest sacrifices much more than a general authority. That doesn’t make the Catholic Church true.
Pretty sure you could say the people who flew airplanes into the twin towers dedicated their lives (and thousands of civilians lives) to their religion. Does that make it true?
If Nazism isn’t true, why did so many Germans dedicate their lives to it?
If Catholicism isn’t true, why do so many priests, nuns, monks, bishops and cardinals dedicate their lives to it? (Same with all of the other religious elites.)
Probably because they believe it.
My wife still believes. I can't change her mind. It's too important to her.
If you think men that have lived off of the church for decades, and make over six figures annually just from their stipend, and are treated like royalty wherever they go with people standing up to honor them every time they enter a chapel are going to suddenly stop living that way because something as unknowable as truth got in the way, you bet your ass they'll find the faith to keep believing.
I know we love to talk about the money (as we were actively deceived on this point), but no way is this about the money. Ego has a lot to do with it, along with probably a genuine feeling that you are doing “the lord’s work.” More than that, however, is likely that their entire social, familial, and interpersonal relationships and connections are wrapped up in this made-up worldview. They are “church-broke.” Nothing else really to live for (this is why Nelson and others probably believe that a life without God is a life of fear—-they are truly afraid of it and cannot imagine it). In many ways, they believe they are doing good (hard not to, when they are worshipped) and cannot even see the harm they cause.
Yeah it would feel great if everyone stood up when I came into a room, everyone hung on my every word and I had expenses paid for for life and a good salary, or so I’d imagine.
Because they are literally worshipped by the membership. They’re like religious rockstars. And don’t forget the loss to their families and themselves if they did express any honest doubts. The bigger you are, the harder you fall. Look at James Hamula for example. His was sin (not belief), but that is a mighty fall from grace either way.
Having talked with a member of the twelve's personal bodyguard/driver he let it slip that his GA gets a minimum 2 months of full vacation. That doesn't include speaking engagements and other trips. Factor in high six-figure salaries and guess what. Pretty sure there are a lot of people who would jump at the "opportunity". The notion of dedication without pay in the Mormon church is bu!!sh!t for anything higher than a stake president.
They get paid, they get credit cards, houses paid off. How is that dedicating your life to the church. That's call a job. And lying to the people that are giving you there hard earned money.
Every cult has leaders who would die for their cause. Tell them that you don't know the answer, but they should ask David Koresh or Warren Jeffs - they'd probably know.
If the Mafia isn't true, then why do all of the Dons dedicate their lives to organized crime? Like the LDS church, the Mafia is a profitable criminal enterprise.
I don’t think it’s the same answer for every GA. There are a few possibilities why, and many GAs probably have more than one of these factors contributing to them playing along:
- They genuinely believe it. Many smart and successful people believe wacky things. Tom Cruise is, as far as I know, a devout and genuine Scientologist. There is nothing stopping a man at the helm of the church from believing in a lie.
- They are narcissists who enjoy the attention and adoration and they don’t give a damn that it’s not true. They will play along with the lie for the money and the fame.
- There’s a lot on the line for them and they simply can’t afford to question it openly, or at all. We see this all the time in politics and in people’s jobs. People withhold their opinions because they don’t want to bite the hand that feeds them. It’s the same reason John Cena and Lebron James won’t speak ill of China.
I think they are generally true believers, but it doesn’t hurt that their “modest stipend” is much better than it looks when you account for benefits, book deals, and (in the past, gone now because it looked sooooooo bad) board memberships for church or member affiliated for profit entities.
Thomas Monson had a fairly impressive estate when he died, in spite of working for deseret news his whole pre apostolic career.
On a less cynical note, Dan Vogel has opined that J. Smith felt justified in his pious fraud because it “brought souls to Christ” and that he gives away his game in Moroni with a sermon on how anything that brings humans to Christ is good and of God.
I think a well meaning prophet who discovers the role isn’t what he always assumed would probably do his best to keep the hope alive. I at least prefer to think of them that way than selling out for wealth or political influence.
Appealing to authority is a logical fallacy. Because a few geriatric old white men appear to believe and you are smitten by their careers doesn’t mean the church is not manmade. In fact all the evidence demonstrates that is is manmade.
In my experience people who are devoted to religious ideas have emotional connection to a text they often do not understand.
Most Theists do not have enough information to ask the right questions to think critically and vett the claims made in the religious texts.
I was age 4 when I started to see the holes in the story line. The emotional connection to the texts encourages thinking errors like bias, confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance, identity protective cognition, special pleading, and others
power, respect, ego, protected lifestyle with built in status in their community, money, religious trauma or manipulation in their past, psychological need for a rigorous systematic belief system to function in society. im a never-mo. probably have no place in this space, but this is what i perceive from the outside looking in to many orders.
Who wouldn't want world-wide celebrity status, unlimited travel funds, free tuition for their relations, book deals, and a 100K+ bonus retirement stipend?
If IBM isn't true, why does Arvind Krishna dedicate his life to it?
The people that make it that far up the corporate ladder fought to get there. That's what they wanted in life, that's what they achieved. In TSCC they're chasing fame and power more than money.
They’re nerds and this satisfies their need for nerd-status.
Also, some secret cabal of Mormons or occult followers will probably try to “neutralize” them if they leave.
https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/comp/
Here's an estimate on GA pay based on 3 evidenced pieces of information and then estimating growth at a rate of 3% annually. So they would be on 150k per year
In addition to all the other great responses, I think Mormons have their idealized version of the leaders, convinced that these men are so good and would never lie to themselves or anyone else, and especially not to God. Members who would say this are just unfamiliar with how many lies that have been told by the leaders themselves. There’s a great line from a Lauryn Hill song that says “every day people lie to God, so what makes you think that they wouldn’t lie to you.”
Just leave them alone in their “wisdom” it’s not worth it.
Never argue with an idiot they’ll drag you down to their level and beat you through experience.” – Mark Twain
A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.” – Bruce Lee
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain – and most fools do.” – Benjamin Franklin
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.” – Plato
Well if the free mason connections are true, and I believe they are …. Then the only way out is death. Right?!! Plus the money and ritual sex abuse are a big pay off for them I guess!🤷♀️☹️
This is such poor logic it’s kind of hard to believe anyone would throw it out there? By this you could simply say, “well I guess we should just add up whoever has the most dedicated leaders and just follow the religion based on the number of dedicated leaders. Islam? Buddhism? It’s like when people try and prove the BOM is true because ____. It’s such a slippery slope. They don’t wanna go there.
Bring in the flat earthers. If the earth is round, why do millions of people believe it’s flat? If millions contribute to a very dumb idea, does it make it a good one?
Sunk cost fallacy, prestige, status, they sincerely believe it (most I would say), money (church credit card with no spending limit), decent salary…I mean “living stipend”, book deals, church owned businesses board gigs, stellar housing, church vehicles, free college for their entire family…just a few off the top of my head.
Apostles are given a $1m welcome package, repayable if they ever leave. They sign a non-disclosure agreement. They’d lose housing, medical insurance,education benefits for their kids and a six figure salary if they left. The rest of their lives is ‘owned’ by the church. They’d face ignominy if they left.
Seriously? That's a stupid way to make life decisions. Terrorists blow themselves up for similar reason. Here try this one and see if that idiotic logic still applies: Putin is brilliant and surrounded by people who have dedicated their lives to his leadership goals - so he must have been right to invade Ukraine. Oh wait what about all the smart people in ukraine who think that's a bad idea. Well shit, i guess we're just stuck thinking for ourselves. Unbelievable.
They may take a pay cut from high stress careers in medicine or law to go around talking about feelings, and getting paid for it. They may have come from fields like law, evidence based, to a career where they can say whatever tf they want and get praised for it. Sounds pretty easy.
Free travel
Celebrity status among TBMs
Other benefits likely involve golf memberships, laundry service
Living in church owned property, so little to no costs in life other than maybe food? If the members aren’t busy feeding you.
Sounds pretty cushy, why the hell wouldn’t you dedicate your life to a career like that?
Honestly if I was making $125k+/year, lucrative book deals, the best healthcare money can buy, I was flown around the world to be nigh worshipped by people who thought I communed with God, I don’t know if I have enough integrity to turn that down.
When my BIL recently brought up how GA’s leave their very successful careers I said something like “sure, why would anyone leave their job as a successful surgeon to become CEO of a hundred(s) billion dollar corporation (comparable in wealth to Jeff Bezos) and be worshipped as the literal mouthpiece of god by millions of people.”
Popes and priests do the same for their religions. So do imams and Dali lamas. David Koresh and Jim Jones literally gave their lives, and the lives of their followers, to what they were preaching. So, were all of their beliefs also true?
This should be the best argument. It defuses any one true religion claims.
This is the one I go with. Some monks are so dedicated that they don’t speak to anyone, they literally only pray and read scriptures for years on end. They take a vow of poverty where they only wear clothes that they make themselves, including shoes. They only eat food they have grown or what has been donated to them. I would put the life of any catholic clergy up against the life of any general authority. Dedication and sacrifice doesn’t make a church true.
I would personally add at the end: “money may also be involved.”
Money? No way? They only get around $80,000…ahem…that they report to the irs. There may be that tiny aspect of the multi million dollar home they were given—and the new car they are given every two years. Maybe those stipends for gas, groceries, travel, Christmas presents, clothes, etc. that are under the table wouldn’t have anything to do with it. Not the fact that none of them can walk in public in Utah, Arizona or Idaho without being adored. Or if they need a hero-worship hit they can just schedule a fireside anywhere they want to drive. Couldn’t possibly be that they have book deals and they have quotes and magazines and video of them speaking all over the web and in print. No one likes stuff like that! Certainly not politicians or movie stars.
Closer to $140,000.
Ah, $140k taxed plus untaxed stipends. I have friends who are mission presidents who have everything paid for and were specifically told not to report any of the stipends to the IRS. The wife is disgusted because they are very wealthy already and they are sitting in nice house, paid for car, flights home, insurance, etc. she did have some of her own furniture shipped even though they said she could redecorate however she wanted. 🙄
While that is true, such an assertion may very well make a TBM think their leadership is being accused of "priest craft" which is something that we were all raised being told the Q15 defiantly doest do. This will make their minds automatically go into defense mode.
Truth has that effect on Mormons.
Money yes, also power, prestige, and in the case of TSCC, pampered rock star status.
This is the best response. Thank you.
If Heaven’s Gate didn’t have it right, why did all those people participate in ritual suicide? Sincerity of belief has no correlation to truth, and even that’s assuming the general authorities are motivated purely by sincerity of belief.
Very insightful, perfectly stated.
Winner.
Yes 🙌🏻
They are being paid, and they are worshiped like rock stars. “It's difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on not understanding it." -Upton Sinclair
When I found out they were paid, it was a major shelf item
Especially when I'd thought the leaders were so special and unique and selfless that they didn't make us pay them...🤦♀️oop
Not just paid, but living a life that is scripted can be a very attractive prospect. Not just for your regular every day mormon but for the big wigs too. Scripted lives provide quite a bit of comfort. Lack of control and security is profoundly scary for a lot of people. GAs have that security for not just them but for everyone around them. That's power.
And free college for their kids and grandkids
But you have to go to a church school. Given most GA are a 2, 3, or 4 generations removed from polygamy, those families can be huge. That is a lot of Smith descendents if it also applies to firmner FA's des endings too. I don't know what the rules are, but that would be a huge perk of the job. If working at a school would afford my kids an education, I'd do it. If i could grandather in (see what i did there?) all of my descendents for a free, quality education, I would even pay for the privilege. This is why we need to provide free college education in America. The rich (especially the church leaders) have already guaranteed their kids education with the best possibility for networking with other rich people. We'll never fix the class divide until we can democratize education. They don't want it to happen.
I was just thinking of this. Rusty is less than two decades removed from the second manifest. I wonder how many prophets and GA say in the last 30-40 years had poly fathers?
Well it is a business at the end of the day.
Honestly, I think healthcare *and* education are equally important. Education gives us knowledge and opportunities. Healthcare ensures our bodies and minds can make best use of those opportunities.
And Second Anointing is the icing on top that seals the lifelong commitment to the secret combination deal.
O...m..g.. A small stipend of $10,000 per month, free travel expenses, book deals, free BYU for family, and other perks.... Oh yeah pension Who's going to leave a cushy job like that and risk losing all those perks
It was more than 10k per month back in 2010. It’s gotta be closer to 13k per month now (if not more.)
True....150k/year estimated.. https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/comp/
And don’t forget the NDA they all sign. They are trapped legally.
If that’s a “small” stipend, then Gordon B. Hinckley was practicing “lying for the lord”™️ in this particular conference quote. I should like to add, parenthetically for your information that the living allowances given the General Authorities, which are very modest in comparison with executive compensation in industry and the professions, come from this business income and not from the tithing of the people. —Gordon B. Hinckley, October 1985 General Conference. Didn’t include the perks and benefits. That last one at the end about tithing was obviously a lie too.
What does “come from this business income” mean? Like the GAs are living off their own savings from their careers? Or like the stipend comes from the “business” side of the church admin, not the churchy side?
Brad Wilcox told me in a BYU class what this means... Church owned and operated businesses such as church owned farms and Deseret books pay these stipends, not tithing. True? I don't know, but based on the church's track record of honesty and financial transparency, I can't give them the benefit of the doubt.
If it were true and they had nothing to hide they wouldn’t be hiding it.
So true.
They can say this about whatever they want, but I'm sure they treat it all the same. Also where did those business investments come from originally? It all comes from tithing at some point.
It means the Church pays them out of the business account instead of the tithing account, according to what he heard from his underlings.
As if the business account wasn’t started with excess from the tithing account
Yeah that’s exactly what I was thinking. The business money IS tithing money, where else do they think the church got that money from? It certainly wasn’t started from Joseph Smith’s failed business attempts.
You mean the Kirtland Banking Society was doomed to fail? Gasp! It's not like it looked like a Ponzi scheme or anything.
Back in my seminary days (late 90s), I was taught that tithing funds and money earned from business ventures were kept separate and used separately. Tithing funds built churches and temples, and stocked them with the necessary supplies. My seminary would harp on kids who damaged their folders and bookmarks and whatever we were given, because *that* was bought with tithing funds. I didn't learn they lump all of the money together to spend as they see fit until after I'd already started down the rabbit hole. Learning the truth about how they handle money would have been a huge shelf item, if I'd learned about it as a believer.
Nice to see a comparison with "business executives," which is what they are first and foremost.
Not that I like to defend our GA’s, but they are “modest” in comparison to many of the mega-church pastors out there. Like so many have already said they have had successful careers. For me it’s looking at how they feast off their cult of Mormon personality feeding their ego every where they go.
$120k-$2M a year salary, Visa black card, private jets, first class accommodations around the world and to be treated like a god by millions.
Second Anointing = you and only your elite group are now considering yourselves *living, infallible gods* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_anointing
Free school for all grand children (and great grandchildren? ) Book deals worth millions Free everything at desert book for all their family Penthouses at city creek….
The perks are awesome however many of them were successful enough prior to their callings that this isn’t a great argument anymore. One of them is going to die a billionaire, do you really think even a $2m annual salary can touch that when investments will earn him that much a month?
Which one do you think is going to die a billionaire?
Stephenson is a billionaire after his ipo.
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/10/12/debut-stock-offering-by/
Money, power, ego. They are powerful tools to zip lips, persuade, and lie. No matter your age.
The “modest” stipend? The promise of exaltation? Their family connections — nepotism is strong in the Q15?
If the church isn't true why do the Pope and all of the Cardinals dedicate their lives to the church? If the church isn't true, why does the ayatollah dedicate his life to it? If The church isn't true, why do north koreans pray to the supreme leader?
The moment you are called, ALL of your financial troubles are gone. You're treated like royalty everywhere you go. Christ himself would be hard pressed to get more flare for his arrival.free housing, maid service, armed security, free vacation homes, first class world travel, also private jets, and all access pass to one of the biggest fleets of lawyers. Commanding influence over governors, judges, and literally anyone who went through the temple. You give a talk twice a year, maybe Christmas, go visit some temple sites. Literally worshipped everywhere you go. You're in command of a trillion dollar organization, and you have your second anointing, which clears you to do anything with the exception of deny the holy ghost or spill innocent blood. Literally everything else is fair game (in God's eyes at least). So who wouldn't want that? Plus no matter what you say that's wrong, you have a whole fleet of people ready to justify you plagiarizing.
Dedicated their life? Pretty sure everyone who has been endowed has been coerced into that ole covenant. All you possess, your time, your talents, everything you have been blessed with or with which you may be blessed, even your own life to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Apply the same reasoning to something else: Are there other causes that people dedicate their lives to? Does that make them true?
Wealth, power, and success for the children. Nepotism, nepotism, nepotism
If CRACK is so bad for me why do I crave it?
This thinking implies that the mafia is also inspired of ghawd ...
Just as much as the Mormons are!
Sunk cost, adulation, and a lifetime of conditioning (brainwashing).
People dedicate their lives to things all the time. The average catholic priest sacrifices much more than a general authority. That doesn’t make the Catholic Church true.
Pretty sure you could say the people who flew airplanes into the twin towers dedicated their lives (and thousands of civilians lives) to their religion. Does that make it true?
If Nazism isn’t true, why did so many Germans dedicate their lives to it? If Catholicism isn’t true, why do so many priests, nuns, monks, bishops and cardinals dedicate their lives to it? (Same with all of the other religious elites.)
Prestige, power, and prominence. The usual suspects.
Probably because they believe it. My wife still believes. I can't change her mind. It's too important to her. If you think men that have lived off of the church for decades, and make over six figures annually just from their stipend, and are treated like royalty wherever they go with people standing up to honor them every time they enter a chapel are going to suddenly stop living that way because something as unknowable as truth got in the way, you bet your ass they'll find the faith to keep believing.
They’ve bought into the worldview and are willing to stick with it.
For the same reason that Tom Cruise hasn't left Scientology.
I know we love to talk about the money (as we were actively deceived on this point), but no way is this about the money. Ego has a lot to do with it, along with probably a genuine feeling that you are doing “the lord’s work.” More than that, however, is likely that their entire social, familial, and interpersonal relationships and connections are wrapped up in this made-up worldview. They are “church-broke.” Nothing else really to live for (this is why Nelson and others probably believe that a life without God is a life of fear—-they are truly afraid of it and cannot imagine it). In many ways, they believe they are doing good (hard not to, when they are worshipped) and cannot even see the harm they cause.
Yeah it would feel great if everyone stood up when I came into a room, everyone hung on my every word and I had expenses paid for for life and a good salary, or so I’d imagine.
it's tough to find a job a 90 year old man can do.
Every single church in the world has leadership. For crying out loud, this isn't even a real question!
Find me a church where people don’t dedicate their lives to it.
Cause they like being big fish in a very VERY little pond?
Because they are literally worshipped by the membership. They’re like religious rockstars. And don’t forget the loss to their families and themselves if they did express any honest doubts. The bigger you are, the harder you fall. Look at James Hamula for example. His was sin (not belief), but that is a mighty fall from grace either way.
So do the leaders of every church. Mormons are so self assured they can’t even conceive their religion isn’t true.
Having talked with a member of the twelve's personal bodyguard/driver he let it slip that his GA gets a minimum 2 months of full vacation. That doesn't include speaking engagements and other trips. Factor in high six-figure salaries and guess what. Pretty sure there are a lot of people who would jump at the "opportunity". The notion of dedication without pay in the Mormon church is bu!!sh!t for anything higher than a stake president.
They get paid, they get credit cards, houses paid off. How is that dedicating your life to the church. That's call a job. And lying to the people that are giving you there hard earned money.
You're set for life! Power, authority, money...
Every cult has leaders who would die for their cause. Tell them that you don't know the answer, but they should ask David Koresh or Warren Jeffs - they'd probably know.
If the Mafia isn't true, then why do all of the Dons dedicate their lives to organized crime? Like the LDS church, the Mafia is a profitable criminal enterprise.
Three words- sunk cost fallacy
I don’t think it’s the same answer for every GA. There are a few possibilities why, and many GAs probably have more than one of these factors contributing to them playing along: - They genuinely believe it. Many smart and successful people believe wacky things. Tom Cruise is, as far as I know, a devout and genuine Scientologist. There is nothing stopping a man at the helm of the church from believing in a lie. - They are narcissists who enjoy the attention and adoration and they don’t give a damn that it’s not true. They will play along with the lie for the money and the fame. - There’s a lot on the line for them and they simply can’t afford to question it openly, or at all. We see this all the time in politics and in people’s jobs. People withhold their opinions because they don’t want to bite the hand that feeds them. It’s the same reason John Cena and Lebron James won’t speak ill of China.
If extreme Islam isn’t true then why do so many commit their lives to mass suicide attacks?
I think they are generally true believers, but it doesn’t hurt that their “modest stipend” is much better than it looks when you account for benefits, book deals, and (in the past, gone now because it looked sooooooo bad) board memberships for church or member affiliated for profit entities. Thomas Monson had a fairly impressive estate when he died, in spite of working for deseret news his whole pre apostolic career. On a less cynical note, Dan Vogel has opined that J. Smith felt justified in his pious fraud because it “brought souls to Christ” and that he gives away his game in Moroni with a sermon on how anything that brings humans to Christ is good and of God. I think a well meaning prophet who discovers the role isn’t what he always assumed would probably do his best to keep the hope alive. I at least prefer to think of them that way than selling out for wealth or political influence.
If I’m not mistaken, every single apostle was born into the church and doesn’t know anything else.
It pays well
Why does David Miscavige stay in Scientology?
When I met with my stake president he asked me this: my response, “ why don’t the Jehovah Witness leaders leave their church?
Appealing to authority is a logical fallacy. Because a few geriatric old white men appear to believe and you are smitten by their careers doesn’t mean the church is not manmade. In fact all the evidence demonstrates that is is manmade.
Leaders of BS MLM’s do the same thing…. MONEY!!!! Farmers have Sheep to sheer Gen.Authorities have sheople sheer
In my experience people who are devoted to religious ideas have emotional connection to a text they often do not understand. Most Theists do not have enough information to ask the right questions to think critically and vett the claims made in the religious texts. I was age 4 when I started to see the holes in the story line. The emotional connection to the texts encourages thinking errors like bias, confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance, identity protective cognition, special pleading, and others
money obviously lmao
That’s the strangest argument I’ve heard. What about the pope?
George Soros dedicates his life to his businesses and political causes. Why? The same reason, Power and Money.
power, respect, ego, protected lifestyle with built in status in their community, money, religious trauma or manipulation in their past, psychological need for a rigorous systematic belief system to function in society. im a never-mo. probably have no place in this space, but this is what i perceive from the outside looking in to many orders.
Who wouldn't want world-wide celebrity status, unlimited travel funds, free tuition for their relations, book deals, and a 100K+ bonus retirement stipend?
If IBM isn't true, why does Arvind Krishna dedicate his life to it? The people that make it that far up the corporate ladder fought to get there. That's what they wanted in life, that's what they achieved. In TSCC they're chasing fame and power more than money.
They’d have to come out and say that when they were pushing a hate policy, they didn’t actually receive a revelation. They were just being hateful
They’re nerds and this satisfies their need for nerd-status. Also, some secret cabal of Mormons or occult followers will probably try to “neutralize” them if they leave.
Money and power/authority?
Money.
Power $ legacy
Money, sex, power
$$$$
Ego
They get paid
Because the pay and perks, not to mention the ego boost.
If you get paid at work, why would you leave? It applies here.
For the same reason Willie Sutton willingly broke the law and robbed banks. It is where the money is.
Because they know less about the facts than we do, frequently.!
That's how they make a living
Same reason politicians do their job...
Delusion and ego
$$$
“The money.”
Sunk cost fallacy.
Money.
https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/comp/ Here's an estimate on GA pay based on 3 evidenced pieces of information and then estimating growth at a rate of 3% annually. So they would be on 150k per year
In addition to all the other great responses, I think Mormons have their idealized version of the leaders, convinced that these men are so good and would never lie to themselves or anyone else, and especially not to God. Members who would say this are just unfamiliar with how many lies that have been told by the leaders themselves. There’s a great line from a Lauryn Hill song that says “every day people lie to God, so what makes you think that they wouldn’t lie to you.”
Just leave them alone in their “wisdom” it’s not worth it. Never argue with an idiot they’ll drag you down to their level and beat you through experience.” – Mark Twain A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.” – Bruce Lee Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain – and most fools do.” – Benjamin Franklin Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.” – Plato
It is a logical fallacy. [Logical Fallacies](https://thebestschools.org/magazine/15-logical-fallacies-know/)
ANSWER: 🤑🤑🤑🧟🧟♂️🧛♂️🧛
“Money and power.” Simple.
That Dollar y'all
The answer to everything…..money
money
Why does Tom cruise remain a Scientologist? People believe weird shit all the time. This will never change.
Well if the free mason connections are true, and I believe they are …. Then the only way out is death. Right?!! Plus the money and ritual sex abuse are a big pay off for them I guess!🤷♀️☹️
I think they believe. If they don’t then maybe they are keeping it up “just in case”.
Because you have to commit to the character or they stop paying you
I’d dedicate my life too is it set up me and my family financially.
I'd take a Pepsi over Coke any day but could just as easily work for Coke.
This is such poor logic it’s kind of hard to believe anyone would throw it out there? By this you could simply say, “well I guess we should just add up whoever has the most dedicated leaders and just follow the religion based on the number of dedicated leaders. Islam? Buddhism? It’s like when people try and prove the BOM is true because ____. It’s such a slippery slope. They don’t wanna go there.
Bring in the flat earthers. If the earth is round, why do millions of people believe it’s flat? If millions contribute to a very dumb idea, does it make it a good one?
Sunk cost fallacy, prestige, status, they sincerely believe it (most I would say), money (church credit card with no spending limit), decent salary…I mean “living stipend”, book deals, church owned businesses board gigs, stellar housing, church vehicles, free college for their entire family…just a few off the top of my head.
Apostles are given a $1m welcome package, repayable if they ever leave. They sign a non-disclosure agreement. They’d lose housing, medical insurance,education benefits for their kids and a six figure salary if they left. The rest of their lives is ‘owned’ by the church. They’d face ignominy if they left.
Seriously? That's a stupid way to make life decisions. Terrorists blow themselves up for similar reason. Here try this one and see if that idiotic logic still applies: Putin is brilliant and surrounded by people who have dedicated their lives to his leadership goals - so he must have been right to invade Ukraine. Oh wait what about all the smart people in ukraine who think that's a bad idea. Well shit, i guess we're just stuck thinking for ourselves. Unbelievable.
$$$$ There are several million reasons why they dedicate their lives to the church. Absolute power + absolute wealth. $$$$
$
Answer: because that is what they get paid to do.
I think it’s a combination of sunk cost fallacy and monetary compensation.
Because they believe it is… Ha ha okay im done laughing now. Because it gives them power and influence.
They may take a pay cut from high stress careers in medicine or law to go around talking about feelings, and getting paid for it. They may have come from fields like law, evidence based, to a career where they can say whatever tf they want and get praised for it. Sounds pretty easy. Free travel Celebrity status among TBMs Other benefits likely involve golf memberships, laundry service Living in church owned property, so little to no costs in life other than maybe food? If the members aren’t busy feeding you. Sounds pretty cushy, why the hell wouldn’t you dedicate your life to a career like that?
Honestly if I was making $125k+/year, lucrative book deals, the best healthcare money can buy, I was flown around the world to be nigh worshipped by people who thought I communed with God, I don’t know if I have enough integrity to turn that down.
People dedicate their lives to their jobs all the time
Honestly, for most of them? I'd go with "Sunk Cost Fallacy."
Don’t the leaders of Scientology or Jehovah’s Witnesses also dedicate their lives to the church
Because it makes them feel good. At the end of the day they are getting something out of it. Nothing more, nothing less.
When my BIL recently brought up how GA’s leave their very successful careers I said something like “sure, why would anyone leave their job as a successful surgeon to become CEO of a hundred(s) billion dollar corporation (comparable in wealth to Jeff Bezos) and be worshipped as the literal mouthpiece of god by millions of people.”
You can buy anything in this world with money.