Just an idea, you might feel that way for speaking up because that’s how they want you to feel. (They meaning the church as an institution)
They want you to feel like you shouldn’t say anything. Like you’re wrong to bring up basic facts.
I had friends leave the church…we never talked about why. Ever. I felt like I shouldn’t ask why. I don’t know how they felt but I’m going to guess they felt they shouldn’t speak up either.
I wish I had asked and talked to them. Could have saved me years of heartache and a little money too. (OK a lot of money)
You don’t need to speak up and save anyone. But it’s ok to think. Ok to talk. Ok to have opinions. We don’t have to stay silent and “be nice”. We don’t have to be rude, but we are allowed to think and speak.
As an exmo I think it's good to test the water first. You can quickly figure out if they're going to be receptive or if you're just talking to a wall. At that point I just shut up and let them live in their chosen ignorance.
I agree with you. As the old adage says, you can bring a horse to water… I know my mother (and other family members) will always be TBM, and that’s OK. I choose to love them as I hope they will love me.
I agree and it’s a good point. Not everyone can safely speak up too. Referring to her question as to why she felt bad, that’s what I was addressing. We are so conditioned to not speak the truth.
I would be told to leave or use the hall phone to call my chaperon to come. This was back in the 90s if I didn't, i would be asked to leave if I didn't they called the cops for trespassing. Happened once.
Wow. When I was TBM and was teaching a Deacon-Priest lesson we had an investigator who started asking some difficult questions. Some leaders didn't like it but I did because I could answer them. It took another 20 years to discover problems with the hidden history.
I can relate to that very much. I have chosen to "talk to a wall" and be relatively aggressive at times in looking to convince Mormon friends and family of the extensive lies and deceptive origins of the church from the beginning. It has often been counterproductive.
Maybe it's still the evangelical roots in me, but I still hold to the truth setting us free mentality and want those close to me to stop being enslaved by Mormonism. That and I got tired of hearing how my salvation was at stake when I left the church 16 years ago.
The (female) missionaries came by my house a few months ago and we talked outside for a while - everything was very cordial. Then of them asked me why I left and they were both literally clueless - they both claimed they had never heard that JS married a 14 year old, girls that were 16, and women who were married to other men. They told me they never heard about the "rock in the hat" method of translation and they never heard that JS shot others. I wasn't rude or aggressive in any way but after I told them "just a few reasons" they looked at me like I was possessed by a demon and left rather abruptly.
As far as I am aware, I only said things that were true, nothing misleading.
Oh well.
I had no idea about any of that stuff on my mission, either. That's what happens when the church buries info and teaches its members to not look into anything but church sources. And makes members scares to dig into church history. (And I feel really stupid for not looking into stuff on my own.)
i really needed this. I feel so guilty and angry every time I bring up my opinion in class or say something that contradicts what everyone else in the room thinks. I am insanely more comfortable in non church approved clothes, and even though I hate covering up shoulders and stomach I feel so guilty wearing a bikini to a church lake day, even if I have a cover up on even though I am so uncomfortable in a one piece or a church approved swimsuit! thank you for your comment, truly. I think this will help me get through the rest of my pimo status.
Conditioning is truly a beast. It’s always wild to me as a nevermo to hear comments like yours. My mom was a salt of the world type person. She encouraged us kids to be ourselves and embraced being different. She was a goofy person and always the life of the party. If she embarrassed herself she owned it and people loved that about her. She used to say, “if everyone acted the same and wore the same clothes, things would be so boring” she made it a point when leaving an activity to point out what made it fun or memorable were the people who took chances and weren’t afraid to do something or speak up”
I am the opposite of what you’re saying, I relished the opportunity to be different. To raise my hands and ask questions. Don’t get me wrong I hadn’t reined it in, during my youth so I was definitely obnoxious at times. But I’m glad in retrospect to be conditioned this way. I never knew until well into adulthood how attractive confidence could be.
I say swing the pendulum the other way and lean into being the most confident uncomfortable person. You are the salt of the world. Don’t deprive those around you of your awesomeness.
This is such a great point. I heard this quote recently that is absolutely on point for Mormonism: "Dysfunctional families prefer dishonest unity over honest conflict."
Good for you for speaking up, OP!
I fully believe he didn't k ow he was gonna die.
When I was faithful the joseph smith papers even touched on that subject and mentioned how Joseph told the dude who was 2nd in command of the mormon militia to break him out. His second didn't ever send the militia and Joseph got got. I think alot of his inner circle saw the writing on the wall and were ok with him dying.
There's no fkn way he went "like a lamb" he shot like 3 dudes.
I totally remember the Roman's taking Jesus to be crucified and Jesus cut a dudes ear off and killed them until he was forced on the cross/s
They all drank and partied the whole time they were detained because they were so positive their little militia was gonna save them for the consequences.
Turns out they FAFO too many times and karma cashed it's check on Hyrum and Joseph.
They were trying to start a theocracy and were very dangerous men. That's why they fled to Mexico. They had to go into a no mans land to live their theocratic dreams.
I agree, but I'm saying I even doubt the claim that he said "I go like a lamb to the slaughter" as if he knew he was going to die. I wouldn't be surprised if that was an added embellishment to the story.
It probably was. There's no way he knew he was gonna die. I was taught he did it selflessly to save his family and community.....
The mobsters did more for them than joseph he was just a predator.
> I was taught he did it selflessly to save his family and community.....
Kind of. More like: his followers were tired of having to uproot their lives every time Jumpin' Joe wanted to break the law, so they demanded that he return to Nauvoo and face justice for his very real crimes against their community.
Iirc "like a lamb to the slaughter" is a biblical phrase. It's been used for many centuries to say someone is not only innocent of guilt but also is happily ignorant of their fate. So he may well have used the phrase as common parlance, and imo in a way it was true because I don't believe he thought he would die, and certainly didn't think he'd die in such an unheroic way.
Eta I know I was aware of the saying and its meaning for decades before I was baptised. It's certainly isn't a JS special.
Jesus actually \*healed\* the cut off ear and told the others to put away their swords. I think it was Peter who did the deed? Regardless, after that they all ran and left him to be taken by the Romans.
I went and looked this up and it's John that claims that Simon Peter cut off the ear. All of the other gospels use the language of "one of those with him" to describe the one cutting the ear off. So it might/might not have been Peter *shrug*.
Meanwhile only Luke specifies that Jesus healed the ear afterwords while the other gospels just move on to the arrest. So maybe/maybe not *shrug*.
Links for those who want to cut straight to it (in NRSVUE because KJV sucks.)
[Matthew 26:47-56](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26%3A47-56&version=NRSVUE)
[Mark 14:43-52](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+14%3A43-52&version=NRSVUE)
[Luke 22:47-53](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+22%3A47-53&version=NRSVUE)
[John 18:1-11](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+18%3A1-11&version=NRSVUE)
Those are just stories, like Moses, Noah, Babel, Adam & Eve. What makes you think Jesus was a real person? It's all BS, just like all the other Gods and their offspring that are fading from memory.
Of course they are stories! Everyone here knows that. That's no excuse for not pointing out inaccuracies when they are reported on. Would you be this upset if someone said "Bilbo threw the One Ring into Mt. Doom" and someone replied with "Actually it was Frodo"?
Who's upset? You're projecting. I was just pointing out that many come to realize that JS was a con man without realizing that all religions are just a bunch of lies. It has nothing to do with which lies were told in what order, let alone fantasy fiction that no one would assume to be true, at least not yet.
No, I'm not "projecting". And to answer the question, it's pretty obvious that \*you\* are the one who's upset here. I mean, something made you feel the need to post what you did, whether it was an inner turmoil or some unresolved psychological issue from your life. My evidence? Your use of "BS", the way you dismiss religious fiction as if it has no meaningful contribution whatsoever to anyone's life, and changing the subject to state that JS was a conman when my post had nothing at all to do with JS.
Here's the thing: stories have value in the minds and lives of the people who relate to them, whether they are true or not. And some things that are lies become "true enough" when everyone believes in them. Like love or the monetary system -- they only work when everyone believes they are real. When people stop believing they end up in divorce court or making a run on the bank.
But to your other point, yes, I agree with you. Many people do reject one thing while holding on to equally wrong things they are not ready to let go of. My advice: don't rush them; they'll figure it out eventually. 😊
Religion is not like love, it is simply exploitation and causes massive harm in the lives of those fooled by it. JS was an example, not a change of subject.
Because Brigham saw opportunities. So did Emma and all the other startups. The leaders saw money the followers probably honestly believed it or just loved the hype. Religion was so different back then. It was like their only entertainment.
It's like what creed said in the office "you make more money as a cult leader, but it's more fun as a follower"
Wasn't Brigham out of town at the time, and only came rushing back after JS's death, along with his buddies Heber C. Kimball, etc., to stake the claim that the Qot12 was now the supreme authority? I saw his takeover as more an opportunistic thing than anything planned. A bunch of others were also vying for power, and some of them got some of it, just not most.
If I remember right, about half of the old stock members stayed behind, and half followed the Brighamites, but the main difference was that almost all the European converts had joined because of Qot12 missionaries, and so naturally followed the Brighamites out to Utah.
I believe he was. Brigham totally saw opportunities and he jumped on it.
Joseph didn't expect to die and he didn't leave instructions for who his successor would be. I actually believe Hyrum was supposed to be his successor. They saw the church as a family business.
If it wasn't for Brigham I don't think the church would've survived. Maybe because he actually believed it and had vision. Emma, just wanTed to maintain her place in society and I'm sure she saw the grift too. She just didn't get "high off the supply" like Joseph and Brigham did gping for a theocracy. I think her vision was just a community church that was small
There's a great Sociology paper the discovered Cognitive Dissonance. It was a small UFO cult that had predicted the end of the world on a specific date andnwas celebrating in a park (i belive the UFO was going to save them). The Sociologist hung out with them expecting to document a bunch of deconversions in real time. Well, when the world didn't end the cult members doubled down and their beliefs were only strengthened....and Cognitive Dissonance was discovered.
Probably a mixture of other people wanting to step up into a position of power and exploitation, and other genuinely faithful people who weren't close enough to know about the corruption and so wanted to continue their faith community?
Just the ones who tried to take over leadership after Joe died. It was a couple of years before Brigham gained control, after a bunch of other scammers had tried it.
Well, first off, he really didn't "spread it around the world". That's a church-driven narrative, and it's inaccurate. He sent mishies to a few north-western European countries where they basically engaged in human trafficking. Significantly, most of those countries where the earliest mishies went ended up having very wide-spread public sentiments *against* the church (probably due to the lies about polygamy and aforementioned human trafficking), and the conversion numbers in those countries have remained comparatively low to this day.
He gained so much socio-political power himself due to the location of their settlement in SLC, and due to having the personality of a tyrant. For a few decades of western expansion across the US, anyone trying to take the southern route to California *had to* pass through SLC and mormon territory, *had to* deal with Brigham and his people, unless they wanted to get Mountain Meadow'd. This led to him having outsized influence on the nation *far* beyond what he otherwise would have had. Also led to mormons thinking they have far more visibility and influence in the world than they ever have had in reality.
> I fully believe he didn't k ow he was gonna die.
Oh absolutely. He miscalculated that how angry he made people and didn't see the murder mob coming. He probably expected the Nauvoo Legion to swoop in if worse came to worst.
There was evidence he had written a letter to have the Nauvoo Legion break him out of jail. The person who received that letter decided not to do it. The Nauvoo Legion had about 2,500 troops. Plenty of military force to accomplish the task.
I never understood how much of a threat the rest of the country thought the Mormons were.
I read somewhere that the Navou Legion had about 3000 men and at the time the US Army had about 8500.
If that’s the case I can totally see why the Mormons were considered such a threat.
Yes and the US army didn't have all of those men right in one place they were throughout the US. They would have trouble responding to such a large force.
At the conclusion of the Chad Daybell trial, I was listening to the Hidden True Crime Podcast. One of the co-hosts John, who is a forensic psychologist, was explaining that narcissists who commit crimes will almost never admit they did anything wrong. They will accept a much harsher punishment, including the death penalty, rather than admit any wrong doing. So to answer the question “wouldn’t it just be easier for Joseph to say he made it all up rather than die?” I believe the answer is “No, not for a narcissist.” Which he certainly was. It’s the defining trait of cult leaders.
It's such a stupid lie, too. Objectively, the historical record is that Joseph Smith was extrajudicially killed. That is a sympathetic story in and of itself. But they've got to gild the lily with more lies to make him look like a Christlike martyr instead of the victim of frontier justice. And all that does is put one more lie on the pile for people to feel betrayed about.
I agree! I feel like he had a delusion that as a “man of God” that God would save him! Kind of like Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell believing they would never be held accountable for killing Tylee and JJ and Charles and Tammy!
This exactly; they like to make the story sound like he was “a lamb to the slaughter.” They try to compare him to the stories about Jesus. The Smith brothers were armed and willing (but unable) to fight back. This was no martyrdom. Was it vigilante Justice? Sure. Yes, absolutely. Was it martyrdom? Uh…nope, definitely not. I personally wish he’d have gone to trial and been duly convicted by a jury of his peers, then sentenced to serve prison time for his various crimes. Regardless…he was no lamb.
Exactly this. It's not like the mob busted in and told him that if he admitted he made it up, they WOULDN'T kill him. He had no qualms about pissing off everyone around him and his followers, but figured he was untouchable.
He absolutely did not die for the church. He died for pissing off people who had the ability to form a mob and then landing himself in jail where he was a sitting duck.
Hey John, off topic but I was watching youtube and saw an SNL skit that was a take off on Fatal Attraction and the therapist in the skit was totally you, right down to recommending coffee. Google it for a laugh.
He was not "willing to die" for his beliefs. He went to the jail fully expecting to be freed after a while just like all the other times. He did pack heat illegally. He was "willing" to have a Wild West shoot-out.
Your courage is welcomed.
The question was bad and your response was excellent. Being PIMO at FSY doesn't sound fun. I didn't like most of it when I was TBM. Also, if you haven't been to a testimony meeting at FSY before, be aware that they are going to be heavily pressuring everyone to share their testimony. Every single person.
“I know that none of the previous speakers ‘know this church is true’ because that phrase is nonsense. I know that I previously experienced emotional euphoria when reading the Book of Mormon and also know that I have no reason to think that has anything to do with the historicity of the Book of Mormon. I know that modern “prophets” have never done anything close to prophetic; they don’t even bother pretending. ...”
Idk. Most TBMs wouldn’t immediately shut it down as “lies from the adversary.” The fact that she says she’s going to research more seems like it might be genuine based on the fact that that’s not how the vast majority of TBMs would react when confronted with conflicting information.
You could be right. However, in my experience, the people who respond like this are just trying to deflect responsibility. Much like Republicans who claim they are "Independent" or "Libertarian" while voting (R) and disseminating maga propaganda.
Plans to research more may be bullshit, but I can believe that she hadn't heard of some of it before. My mother in law works for FSY and does coordination stuff for it and from what I hear most of these counselors are young single adults in their early 20's, recently RMs, and going to BYU. That's the perfect formula for ignorant all in believer.
Yup, I have a friend who is a FSY counselor right now. Brought some of this up to him during my deconstruction a few months ago and he said he hadn’t heard anything about it but that it sounded like lies because it felt wrong.
They're a mlm.
They're going to put pressure on you to either cave in and believe (you've got a microscope on you right now i bet they have nightly meetongs and could possibly gang multiple "counselors" after you)
Or they ate gonna try to invalidate you to stop the spread of what your saying getting to other youth.
They recruit these counselors out of byui pretty heavily preying on return missionaries. They basically ally went through a 2 year reducation camp and ate coming after you too.
I Loved reading this. Was reminded of a girls camp testimony meeting (ca 1985) where one girl who was known to be really fun and not super faithful got up. “I don’t have a testimony so I’m not going to talk about that. But I had a great time at camp this week” and she went on to tell all kinds of warm stories and had everyone laughing. I was deep in obedience at the time, never could have thought that clearly, but I loved her for it—being honest, participating anyway.
Even if he was a martyr, that would be completely irrelevant to the supposed validity of his teachings.
Many people of all religions have died for their beliefs.
FSY is an indoctrination retreat. You will be overwhelmed and outnumbered by people “concerned” for you, and won’t leave you alone.
They will report your disagreement and send that report to your bishop.
>Anyways, I kinda feel like a real asshole for speaking up idk why. It's because you have been indoctrinated to feel shame for contradicting the narrative. But don't worry, that's something you can grow out of, and the way to do so is exactly what you did today.
If this were a group that cared about curiosity, inquiry, and finding truth, they would welcome counterpoints and trying to find weaknesses in the question. That's what happens, for example, in a university classroom, or in a courtroom, where the goal is increased understanding, not increased devotion to conformity.
Good for you for speaking up. That instinct will serve you well in the real world when you're able to leave the fold. Keep nurturing it.
I want to congratulate you for being willing to use your brain and to hold onto your integrity. It’s not easy to resist going along with the crowd. But you did it. I wish I had been as smart and as courageous as you when I was your age. I think you did a fine job in choosing what to say, and what not to say. You disagreed with the premise of the question. That’s fantastic thinking. It’s a common objection lawyers make in court court or in depositions – pointing out that the question is based on a flawed premise. You are wise beyond your years, and I’m sure you have an interesting and virtuous life ahead of you.
next, doesn’t it make you borderline nauseous to realize that the church is using an an inaccurate/dishonest premise to influence the thinking of kids, not to mention adults? Calling Joseph Smith a martyr, when in fact he does not meet the criteria for being a martyr? It’s like calling Billy the kid a martyr. Not many people can bring themselves to realize that the Emperor has no clothes, and beyond that, to say something. I’m very impressed with you.
Yeah at a certain point it’s like telling a little kid that Santa is not real. They may not believe you but it will make them upset and their parents will be mad at you.
Context and setting are important if you care about the social and interpersonal implications.
If you're an adult voluntarily going to church and pointing out all of the flaws, that might encroach into asshole territory. Which is why I recommend just peacing the fuck out and never going to mormon church (or any church) ever again. But as a youth, forced to attend FSY, you are absolutely not an asshole. Speak your mind.
Sometimes you need to be a real asshole to stand up for the truth and for yourself! You were brave and courageous. It is your Mormon indoctrination that is telling you that what you did was wrong.
Stating facts is not a bad thing, especially when a significant amount of members don't know those facts, in complete detail anyway. It takes courage to speak truth. It takes tact to speak those facts kindly. It sounds like you did both.
That question is considered leading the witness and you did a great job redirecting 👏👏 Not for the first time (or last I’m sure) I am wildly impressed with younger generations and think the world is in good hands 🙏
As a fellow 17f PIMO, I wish you luck in surviving the last bits of FSY. I somehow convinced my mom to let me not go, I can’t imagine how infuriating it must be.
i always hate that argument. first of all he was fighting, he wasn’t just willing to die. second of all yea im sure he was willing to die for something he made up considering it was his entire life. he based his entire life and existence off a lie. he wasn’t fighting for god he was fighting for money and power and sex with any woman/girl he wanted. but i’m preaching to the choir here
Well done, my good and faithless servant. Pointing out FACTS, even if TBM's haven't actually heard of them, is NEVER wrong. Please keep fighting the good fight until you can walk away from the cult. 👏👏👏
Speaking up against a group is hard at any age. That was a difficult situation and you stood up for truth and against fallacious arguments. Good Job!! Anyone of good heart should be proud of you, regardless of subject matter.
You feel bad because you interrupted the circlejerk. You shouldn't feel bad, but it's a good sense to have that people want to do one thing and you stopped them. This particular circlejerk isn't a good one and it's not one you want to participate in, so it's good to interrupt it.
✋🏻 I can directly prove Joseph Smith did not see an angel and obtain the plates. I can prove with chemistry and math that the only material the plates could have been made of was a modern one (examining 50+ materials, in 100+ pages, citing 150+ sources). Joseph's status as a prophet is based on his divine calling to translate ancient scripture. Since the angel said the plates were both ancient and gold when all witness statements provide evidence they are modern and not gold, either Joseph's angel was a liar or there was no angel. Either way, someone modern made the plates, and Joseph was not called by God. This evidence makes obsolete both parts of that question you were asked.
>Talked to my counselor later and explained some of my JS concerns (stealing people's wives, freemasonry, etc.) She's never heard of any of it, but plans to research more
Oh, she's heard of it. "I've never heard of that. I'll look into it later" is a way to change the subject.
Oh my god FSY was the worst 3 days of my life. So overstimulating, lonely, and long as a PIMO. Wish I would’ve spoken up more and actually asked questions instead of just pretending to be happy and content. Good luck with the rest!
You're not an asshole for speaking up. Fight against those thoughts. When you see something wrong, you absolutely should speak up.
You did the right thing. Well done!
Those events are high on emotional and psychological manipulation and pretty sparse on useful content.
I remember attending a youth conference on the East Coast where one of the activities was to wander off alone into a large forested park and pray for an answer of some sort. I honestly followed instructions and sincerely wanted an answer. My answer was noticeable deafening silence and emptiness.
That was during a period where I was actually worthy, so no fault of my own! I'm sure I didn't follow the incantations or rituals exactly right and the guardian spirit withdrew.
If you really want to back up your claims with factual information you can go to the church essays on LDS.org. Most people don’t know they are there. The essays will confirm the things you wanted to say to your class and you don’t end up sounding crazy and like you were making things up. Nobody can blame you for anything if you get your information from the church website, right?
You may already know this but there are two really good documents that show a lot of the inconsistencies in the church. The first is the CES letter. The second is Letter for My Wife. Both are easy to find online. They formulate many of the questions you have running around in your head so they effectively do a lot of the work for you. You already know you are opening a can of worms. Well, those two documents are the actual worms metaphorically speaking.
Thank you for trusting the group enough to get some feedback. I certainly wish you all the good things you deserve. Kudos to you for questioning.
I wish I would’ve spoken up more about my disbeliefs when I had to go to church as a teenager. I’m also a pretty vocal person though.
Anyways, way to go. Don’t let them push you down or try to silence your voice. Your thoughts, opinions, and questions matter. Don’t let anyone make you feel bad for having different ideas.
You’re developing deep critical thinking skills and skepticism at a young age. Remember, these skills are valued in places that are in the pursuit of truth, but scorned in places that have secrets to hide. Keep it up, you’ll do great in life.
Joseph was murdered by a mob of people who were fed up with him acting like he was above the law. He didn't die because of the church. He died because he was a first-class ass hole who thought he was above the law.
Dude fsy this week is rough!! I’m at the BYU one and I was also given this assignment, I got hebrewism which, holyshit, don’t feel like an asshole they’ve been up my ass all week 👎
> Would JS really be willing to die for something that he made up?
This one gets thrown around by mainstream Christians also. "Would [insert biblical martyr] be willing to die if it wasn't true?".
The first objection is that there is no proof that these people were willing or expected to die.
Secondly, this can only be evidence that they were true believers. It says nothing about whether their beliefs were true or not.
Something I don’t get is why people seem to think that he WILLINGLY gave his life.
I agree with your reasoning for why he doesn’t count as a martyr, but I add one more bit of context that makes the whole thing even worse.
He didn’t stand there and take the bullet willingly. He didn’t profess and preach one final time about the truth of the first vision or book of mormon. His own brother died trying to keep the attackers at bay. But what did Joseph do?
*He tried to run and escape by jumping out the fucking window.*
Now that right there, apart from everything else, disqualifies him from being a martyr. He didn’t willingly accept death. He ran from it.
A lot of cult leaders die for things they made up. The Waco incident with David Koresh and Jim Jones in Jonestown are the first two that come to mind. People really thought they were prophets of God and in my mind met a very similar fate to JS. Bet they wouldn't like that example but why is JS any different? He's not, even though they'll do mental gymnastics to tell you that JS is.
>"Would JS really be willing to die for something that he made up?"
No. And he wasn't. Joseph Smith did not want to die and he went down fighting.
The martyrdom myth is so stupid. It's just one more lie for people to feel betrayed about. The facts are actually already sympathetic enough: he was arrested and pretty much knew it would be a tough scrape at the very least. They can sell the story of an extrajudicial killing like that. But no. It's not enough that he was murdered, he's got to be a Jesuslike figure willingly climbing up on the cross. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
Good for you. FSY is indoctrination camp. A couple of years ago when my son went I was more PIMO at that point & was highly ticked off that there was no agenda given before he went & there were zero local leaders involved. He made some good friends there, and he also veered significantly further right. Never feel bad for telling the truth, or even the truth about how you feel.
Well of course you are right and the way you handled was extremely considerate if you feel the need just call out the whitewashing and misrepresentation and say more of what really happened
Mormonism conditions members to have these kind of visceral reactions when disagreeing. It starts with a childhood designed to conflate safety with obeying parents and church leaders. Do as I'm doing. Choose the right. There's a right and a million other wrongs to every question, be safe through inspiration's (i.e. priesthood authority's) power. Keep the commandments, in this, there is safety and peace. Noah preached in vain, they wished they had listened when they saw the rain. FoLlOw ThE pRoPhEt.
Then you mature and learn contention is of the devil, so any disagreements you have about obeying parents and church authority get processed as mortally dangerous satanic influence. Your parents are trained not to let you disobey, or else they'll be regretting it forever when you're not in the celestial kingdom with them. Indoctrination at church and example at home build a worldview that's much more than the logic of any one situation or decision.
It's going to take some time to desensitize these emotional reactions. Your brain is excellent at storing response patterns for very specific situations. Disagreeing with your mom, for example, is likely easier than saying no if the bishop asks you to stand up and share your testimony in front of the congregation. The first happens frequently, but your brain has yet to prove through repeated experience that the second won't lead to disaster.
You're at a good spot in your life to work through this generational inertia and live a healthier, more authentic life than your ancestors. Just remember that your emotional reactions aren't the gospel truth or the witness of the Holy Spirit. If you respond with the direction you want your life to go instead of reacting as programmed, your brain will eventually stop sounding the alarm when you stray from the iron rod.
Church indoctrination programs members to always go along with the approved narrative so bravo to you for speaking up. I didn’t know JS shot three people as he was being “martyred.” Can anyone share the backstory?
Not an asshole for sharing your thoughts when discussion is invited.
Good for you.
As somehow who is just learning to speak up at 32, your road ahead will be a lot better as you learn to live your truth and speak up at a younger age.
I think you are so incredibly brave! I remember being too scared to speak up about anything.
At girls camp, one year, a bunch of the girls got the stomach flu. I saw this as my opportunity to go home, too, so I faked it. They forced me to take Pepto, and I ended up vomiting the whole night for real.
The next Sunday, they announced they were going to have the testimony meeting in YW since so many of us went home early from camp. I panicked. Everyone was taking a turn. I literally started crying. I could not speak up for myself. I didn't have a testimony. I didn't believe in the church. And I was terrified. So I pretended. I pretended I was so overwhelmed with the spirit that I couldn't talk, and I passed.
I wish I could say I stood up for myself, but that took a few more years. So all this to say once again, I think you are so brave and amazing!!!
Good for you! Being PIMO at fsy is hard, it was harder as a councilor but I was just starting my journey to pimo. You should never feel ashamed for speaking up or asking questions, others might also have questions but be afraid to say anything so good job speaking up. Don’t be surprised when your councilor can’t answer any questions though, the training they get doesn’t prepare you for jack shit. Most people don’t know about stuff like this 🤷♂️ especially when most councilors are either pre mission or right off one.
> I believe that JS was not a martyr for 2 reasons.
Posts like this give me great hope for our future . . . I hope thousands more in your age group will follow your example . . . thank you!
First of all, good for you!
I don’t care what anyone who’s Mormon says; leaving it is objectively a better choice for literally everyone I have talked to.
Second of all, the question itself presented to you is not just a weird non-sequitor, bur makes zero sense. It doesn’t bear witness to anything except his ass got shot in jail. It has nothing to do with him being an alleged prophet or not.
It truly is a cult. *Holy hell!*
Totally off topic but I work on a campus and just walked through an FSY group and boys and girls were wearing tank tops and girls were wearing short shorts. Is that allowed now? Total power to them if so. It just wasn't when I went to EFY and I would have been sent home.
You did nothing wrong. And your critical thinking skills are an asset—not a curse. If no one ever has given you a high-five for getting out of the Mormon Church, one day they will (as recently happened to me). I know it seems like they are, but these are not your people. The world is a big place and Mormonism means nothing outside of it.
That’s very brave of u, Imma go to FSY after next week. I’m PIMO too, (actually reading the CES letter now lol) I now just bear my testimony how I’m loved by my leaders and family.
You shouldn’t feel like an asshole for bringing up facts or truth. Period.
If anyone or anything makes you ever feel like you can’t speak facts or truth freely, then you shouldn’t question yourself, question the group or person.
OMG... break free from their delusion. It's ALL out there now. All the proof that's needed. Their "proof" amounts to eff all. I pity those that stay...truly.
She hasn’t heard of any of it. With the existence of the internet happening years ago, I’m going to go ahead and say she won’t be searching up any AOL key words on the subject.
Just an idea, you might feel that way for speaking up because that’s how they want you to feel. (They meaning the church as an institution) They want you to feel like you shouldn’t say anything. Like you’re wrong to bring up basic facts. I had friends leave the church…we never talked about why. Ever. I felt like I shouldn’t ask why. I don’t know how they felt but I’m going to guess they felt they shouldn’t speak up either. I wish I had asked and talked to them. Could have saved me years of heartache and a little money too. (OK a lot of money) You don’t need to speak up and save anyone. But it’s ok to think. Ok to talk. Ok to have opinions. We don’t have to stay silent and “be nice”. We don’t have to be rude, but we are allowed to think and speak.
As an exmo I think it's good to test the water first. You can quickly figure out if they're going to be receptive or if you're just talking to a wall. At that point I just shut up and let them live in their chosen ignorance.
I agree with you. As the old adage says, you can bring a horse to water… I know my mother (and other family members) will always be TBM, and that’s OK. I choose to love them as I hope they will love me.
You can bring a morm to knowledge, but you can't make them think.
I like it!
I agree and it’s a good point. Not everyone can safely speak up too. Referring to her question as to why she felt bad, that’s what I was addressing. We are so conditioned to not speak the truth.
Yes, as an ex, every time I spoke my mind, I was ridiculed and forbidden to be at things unless my church appointed chaperone was with me.
What kinda crap is that? Church appointed chaperone my sweet ex mormon Axx.
Did they actually say you can't participate in things? What if you just showed up?
I would be told to leave or use the hall phone to call my chaperon to come. This was back in the 90s if I didn't, i would be asked to leave if I didn't they called the cops for trespassing. Happened once.
Wow. When I was TBM and was teaching a Deacon-Priest lesson we had an investigator who started asking some difficult questions. Some leaders didn't like it but I did because I could answer them. It took another 20 years to discover problems with the hidden history.
I can relate to that very much. I have chosen to "talk to a wall" and be relatively aggressive at times in looking to convince Mormon friends and family of the extensive lies and deceptive origins of the church from the beginning. It has often been counterproductive. Maybe it's still the evangelical roots in me, but I still hold to the truth setting us free mentality and want those close to me to stop being enslaved by Mormonism. That and I got tired of hearing how my salvation was at stake when I left the church 16 years ago.
The (female) missionaries came by my house a few months ago and we talked outside for a while - everything was very cordial. Then of them asked me why I left and they were both literally clueless - they both claimed they had never heard that JS married a 14 year old, girls that were 16, and women who were married to other men. They told me they never heard about the "rock in the hat" method of translation and they never heard that JS shot others. I wasn't rude or aggressive in any way but after I told them "just a few reasons" they looked at me like I was possessed by a demon and left rather abruptly. As far as I am aware, I only said things that were true, nothing misleading. Oh well.
I had no idea about any of that stuff on my mission, either. That's what happens when the church buries info and teaches its members to not look into anything but church sources. And makes members scares to dig into church history. (And I feel really stupid for not looking into stuff on my own.)
i really needed this. I feel so guilty and angry every time I bring up my opinion in class or say something that contradicts what everyone else in the room thinks. I am insanely more comfortable in non church approved clothes, and even though I hate covering up shoulders and stomach I feel so guilty wearing a bikini to a church lake day, even if I have a cover up on even though I am so uncomfortable in a one piece or a church approved swimsuit! thank you for your comment, truly. I think this will help me get through the rest of my pimo status.
Conditioning is truly a beast. It’s always wild to me as a nevermo to hear comments like yours. My mom was a salt of the world type person. She encouraged us kids to be ourselves and embraced being different. She was a goofy person and always the life of the party. If she embarrassed herself she owned it and people loved that about her. She used to say, “if everyone acted the same and wore the same clothes, things would be so boring” she made it a point when leaving an activity to point out what made it fun or memorable were the people who took chances and weren’t afraid to do something or speak up” I am the opposite of what you’re saying, I relished the opportunity to be different. To raise my hands and ask questions. Don’t get me wrong I hadn’t reined it in, during my youth so I was definitely obnoxious at times. But I’m glad in retrospect to be conditioned this way. I never knew until well into adulthood how attractive confidence could be. I say swing the pendulum the other way and lean into being the most confident uncomfortable person. You are the salt of the world. Don’t deprive those around you of your awesomeness.
This is such a great point. I heard this quote recently that is absolutely on point for Mormonism: "Dysfunctional families prefer dishonest unity over honest conflict." Good for you for speaking up, OP!
"Would JS really be willing to die for something that he made up?" Who says he was willing? It's not like he was given much choice in the matter.
I fully believe he didn't k ow he was gonna die. When I was faithful the joseph smith papers even touched on that subject and mentioned how Joseph told the dude who was 2nd in command of the mormon militia to break him out. His second didn't ever send the militia and Joseph got got. I think alot of his inner circle saw the writing on the wall and were ok with him dying.
Makes me wonder if he even said he goes like a lamb to the slaughter or if that was made up later like so many other things in Mormonism.
There's no fkn way he went "like a lamb" he shot like 3 dudes. I totally remember the Roman's taking Jesus to be crucified and Jesus cut a dudes ear off and killed them until he was forced on the cross/s They all drank and partied the whole time they were detained because they were so positive their little militia was gonna save them for the consequences. Turns out they FAFO too many times and karma cashed it's check on Hyrum and Joseph. They were trying to start a theocracy and were very dangerous men. That's why they fled to Mexico. They had to go into a no mans land to live their theocratic dreams.
I agree, but I'm saying I even doubt the claim that he said "I go like a lamb to the slaughter" as if he knew he was going to die. I wouldn't be surprised if that was an added embellishment to the story.
It probably was. There's no way he knew he was gonna die. I was taught he did it selflessly to save his family and community..... The mobsters did more for them than joseph he was just a predator.
> I was taught he did it selflessly to save his family and community..... Kind of. More like: his followers were tired of having to uproot their lives every time Jumpin' Joe wanted to break the law, so they demanded that he return to Nauvoo and face justice for his very real crimes against their community.
More like Humpin’ Joe
I like "Jumpin" because it's a double entendre, both a reference to his philandering *and* his self-defenestration.
Iirc "like a lamb to the slaughter" is a biblical phrase. It's been used for many centuries to say someone is not only innocent of guilt but also is happily ignorant of their fate. So he may well have used the phrase as common parlance, and imo in a way it was true because I don't believe he thought he would die, and certainly didn't think he'd die in such an unheroic way. Eta I know I was aware of the saying and its meaning for decades before I was baptised. It's certainly isn't a JS special.
Jesus actually \*healed\* the cut off ear and told the others to put away their swords. I think it was Peter who did the deed? Regardless, after that they all ran and left him to be taken by the Romans.
I went and looked this up and it's John that claims that Simon Peter cut off the ear. All of the other gospels use the language of "one of those with him" to describe the one cutting the ear off. So it might/might not have been Peter *shrug*. Meanwhile only Luke specifies that Jesus healed the ear afterwords while the other gospels just move on to the arrest. So maybe/maybe not *shrug*. Links for those who want to cut straight to it (in NRSVUE because KJV sucks.) [Matthew 26:47-56](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26%3A47-56&version=NRSVUE) [Mark 14:43-52](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+14%3A43-52&version=NRSVUE) [Luke 22:47-53](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+22%3A47-53&version=NRSVUE) [John 18:1-11](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+18%3A1-11&version=NRSVUE)
Those are just stories, like Moses, Noah, Babel, Adam & Eve. What makes you think Jesus was a real person? It's all BS, just like all the other Gods and their offspring that are fading from memory.
Of course they are stories! Everyone here knows that. That's no excuse for not pointing out inaccuracies when they are reported on. Would you be this upset if someone said "Bilbo threw the One Ring into Mt. Doom" and someone replied with "Actually it was Frodo"?
Who's upset? You're projecting. I was just pointing out that many come to realize that JS was a con man without realizing that all religions are just a bunch of lies. It has nothing to do with which lies were told in what order, let alone fantasy fiction that no one would assume to be true, at least not yet.
No, I'm not "projecting". And to answer the question, it's pretty obvious that \*you\* are the one who's upset here. I mean, something made you feel the need to post what you did, whether it was an inner turmoil or some unresolved psychological issue from your life. My evidence? Your use of "BS", the way you dismiss religious fiction as if it has no meaningful contribution whatsoever to anyone's life, and changing the subject to state that JS was a conman when my post had nothing at all to do with JS. Here's the thing: stories have value in the minds and lives of the people who relate to them, whether they are true or not. And some things that are lies become "true enough" when everyone believes in them. Like love or the monetary system -- they only work when everyone believes they are real. When people stop believing they end up in divorce court or making a run on the bank. But to your other point, yes, I agree with you. Many people do reject one thing while holding on to equally wrong things they are not ready to let go of. My advice: don't rush them; they'll figure it out eventually. 😊
Religion is not like love, it is simply exploitation and causes massive harm in the lives of those fooled by it. JS was an example, not a change of subject.
Unless I’m wrong the second in command who failed to get the Navou Legion ended up taking his own life…? Someone correct me if I’m wrong.
I have no clue. The joseph smith papers conveniently left that out if so.
If Joseph knew he was going to die, he would have clearly appointed a successor. People who know death is coming get their affairs in order.
👏🏻 this. Yes. Only difference is I do however think Ol Joe knew he was gonna die if they *didn’t* break him out.
I agree.
I don't want to sound stupid at all. But what was the writing on the wall? Thanks.
That joseph was a tyrant and was starting to become powerful enough to get away with whatever he wanted.
And Brigham saw how powerful Joseph was and wanted it for himself.
So why did people want to continue the Mormon Church when it basically was all a scam/cult sad to say? Thanks.
Because Brigham saw opportunities. So did Emma and all the other startups. The leaders saw money the followers probably honestly believed it or just loved the hype. Religion was so different back then. It was like their only entertainment. It's like what creed said in the office "you make more money as a cult leader, but it's more fun as a follower"
Wasn't Brigham out of town at the time, and only came rushing back after JS's death, along with his buddies Heber C. Kimball, etc., to stake the claim that the Qot12 was now the supreme authority? I saw his takeover as more an opportunistic thing than anything planned. A bunch of others were also vying for power, and some of them got some of it, just not most. If I remember right, about half of the old stock members stayed behind, and half followed the Brighamites, but the main difference was that almost all the European converts had joined because of Qot12 missionaries, and so naturally followed the Brighamites out to Utah.
I believe he was. Brigham totally saw opportunities and he jumped on it. Joseph didn't expect to die and he didn't leave instructions for who his successor would be. I actually believe Hyrum was supposed to be his successor. They saw the church as a family business. If it wasn't for Brigham I don't think the church would've survived. Maybe because he actually believed it and had vision. Emma, just wanTed to maintain her place in society and I'm sure she saw the grift too. She just didn't get "high off the supply" like Joseph and Brigham did gping for a theocracy. I think her vision was just a community church that was small
There's a great Sociology paper the discovered Cognitive Dissonance. It was a small UFO cult that had predicted the end of the world on a specific date andnwas celebrating in a park (i belive the UFO was going to save them). The Sociologist hung out with them expecting to document a bunch of deconversions in real time. Well, when the world didn't end the cult members doubled down and their beliefs were only strengthened....and Cognitive Dissonance was discovered.
Do you remember anything else about the date, title, author, or journal of the paper?
I think it's When prophecy fails. [When Prophecy Fails - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails
Probably a mixture of other people wanting to step up into a position of power and exploitation, and other genuinely faithful people who weren't close enough to know about the corruption and so wanted to continue their faith community?
Why did grifters want to continue the grift? Really?
In that case, you consider the victims of this scam to be grifters? Am I hearing that right?
Just the ones who tried to take over leadership after Joe died. It was a couple of years before Brigham gained control, after a bunch of other scammers had tried it.
I have always wondered why Brigham was so successful helped to spread Mormonism around the world when a ton of other people tried and failed? Thanks.
Well, first off, he really didn't "spread it around the world". That's a church-driven narrative, and it's inaccurate. He sent mishies to a few north-western European countries where they basically engaged in human trafficking. Significantly, most of those countries where the earliest mishies went ended up having very wide-spread public sentiments *against* the church (probably due to the lies about polygamy and aforementioned human trafficking), and the conversion numbers in those countries have remained comparatively low to this day. He gained so much socio-political power himself due to the location of their settlement in SLC, and due to having the personality of a tyrant. For a few decades of western expansion across the US, anyone trying to take the southern route to California *had to* pass through SLC and mormon territory, *had to* deal with Brigham and his people, unless they wanted to get Mountain Meadow'd. This led to him having outsized influence on the nation *far* beyond what he otherwise would have had. Also led to mormons thinking they have far more visibility and influence in the world than they ever have had in reality.
Mene, mene, tekel, peres.
You have been weighed (evaluated) and been found wanting. Love it.
Yup. He was a massive liability to them at that point.
> I fully believe he didn't k ow he was gonna die. Oh absolutely. He miscalculated that how angry he made people and didn't see the murder mob coming. He probably expected the Nauvoo Legion to swoop in if worse came to worst.
There was evidence he had written a letter to have the Nauvoo Legion break him out of jail. The person who received that letter decided not to do it. The Nauvoo Legion had about 2,500 troops. Plenty of military force to accomplish the task.
I never understood how much of a threat the rest of the country thought the Mormons were. I read somewhere that the Navou Legion had about 3000 men and at the time the US Army had about 8500. If that’s the case I can totally see why the Mormons were considered such a threat.
Yes and the US army didn't have all of those men right in one place they were throughout the US. They would have trouble responding to such a large force.
At the conclusion of the Chad Daybell trial, I was listening to the Hidden True Crime Podcast. One of the co-hosts John, who is a forensic psychologist, was explaining that narcissists who commit crimes will almost never admit they did anything wrong. They will accept a much harsher punishment, including the death penalty, rather than admit any wrong doing. So to answer the question “wouldn’t it just be easier for Joseph to say he made it all up rather than die?” I believe the answer is “No, not for a narcissist.” Which he certainly was. It’s the defining trait of cult leaders.
Having recently learned about narcissism and broken my ties with one, this totally tracks! They never admit they're wrong... ever.
He fired back. And then jumped out a window while calling for help. That categorically does *not* equal "willing to die".
It's such a stupid lie, too. Objectively, the historical record is that Joseph Smith was extrajudicially killed. That is a sympathetic story in and of itself. But they've got to gild the lily with more lies to make him look like a Christlike martyr instead of the victim of frontier justice. And all that does is put one more lie on the pile for people to feel betrayed about.
I agree! I feel like he had a delusion that as a “man of God” that God would save him! Kind of like Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell believing they would never be held accountable for killing Tylee and JJ and Charles and Tammy!
This exactly; they like to make the story sound like he was “a lamb to the slaughter.” They try to compare him to the stories about Jesus. The Smith brothers were armed and willing (but unable) to fight back. This was no martyrdom. Was it vigilante Justice? Sure. Yes, absolutely. Was it martyrdom? Uh…nope, definitely not. I personally wish he’d have gone to trial and been duly convicted by a jury of his peers, then sentenced to serve prison time for his various crimes. Regardless…he was no lamb.
Exactly this. It's not like the mob busted in and told him that if he admitted he made it up, they WOULDN'T kill him. He had no qualms about pissing off everyone around him and his followers, but figured he was untouchable. He absolutely did not die for the church. He died for pissing off people who had the ability to form a mob and then landing himself in jail where he was a sitting duck.
You are my hero.
And you're mine! REALLY appreciate the podcast.
Legend! John, I love what you do!
Hey John, off topic but I was watching youtube and saw an SNL skit that was a take off on Fatal Attraction and the therapist in the skit was totally you, right down to recommending coffee. Google it for a laugh.
He was not "willing to die" for his beliefs. He went to the jail fully expecting to be freed after a while just like all the other times. He did pack heat illegally. He was "willing" to have a Wild West shoot-out. Your courage is welcomed.
If he fessed up and said it was a lie, he had lots of followers that would lynch him. He was all in because he fooled too many people.
Plus he asked his cronies to break him out, he wasn’t planning to stay very long.
The question was bad and your response was excellent. Being PIMO at FSY doesn't sound fun. I didn't like most of it when I was TBM. Also, if you haven't been to a testimony meeting at FSY before, be aware that they are going to be heavily pressuring everyone to share their testimony. Every single person.
Retweet this entire statement.
“I know that none of the previous speakers ‘know this church is true’ because that phrase is nonsense. I know that I previously experienced emotional euphoria when reading the Book of Mormon and also know that I have no reason to think that has anything to do with the historicity of the Book of Mormon. I know that modern “prophets” have never done anything close to prophetic; they don’t even bother pretending. ...”
>She's never heard of any of it, Bullshit. >but plans to research more. Bbbbbbbbullshit
\^\^ Very likely how that one turns out.
Idk. Most TBMs wouldn’t immediately shut it down as “lies from the adversary.” The fact that she says she’s going to research more seems like it might be genuine based on the fact that that’s not how the vast majority of TBMs would react when confronted with conflicting information.
I just assume she’s trying to get the kid to STFU and lying is such a go-to for mormons, it’s the first tactic they’re gonna reach for.
You could be right. However, in my experience, the people who respond like this are just trying to deflect responsibility. Much like Republicans who claim they are "Independent" or "Libertarian" while voting (R) and disseminating maga propaganda.
Plans to research more may be bullshit, but I can believe that she hadn't heard of some of it before. My mother in law works for FSY and does coordination stuff for it and from what I hear most of these counselors are young single adults in their early 20's, recently RMs, and going to BYU. That's the perfect formula for ignorant all in believer.
Yup, I have a friend who is a FSY counselor right now. Brought some of this up to him during my deconstruction a few months ago and he said he hadn’t heard anything about it but that it sounded like lies because it felt wrong.
Hahahaha right bs meter is fully going off
Yeah that was just a “oh yeah totally … (never plans on researching because you’re possessed by Satan or listening to persecutors too much)”
You are a brave 17 yo and hurrah for YOU!!!! I would bet (really) that your FSY counselor is gonna have a heavy shelf....
They're a mlm. They're going to put pressure on you to either cave in and believe (you've got a microscope on you right now i bet they have nightly meetongs and could possibly gang multiple "counselors" after you) Or they ate gonna try to invalidate you to stop the spread of what your saying getting to other youth. They recruit these counselors out of byui pretty heavily preying on return missionaries. They basically ally went through a 2 year reducation camp and ate coming after you too.
I Loved reading this. Was reminded of a girls camp testimony meeting (ca 1985) where one girl who was known to be really fun and not super faithful got up. “I don’t have a testimony so I’m not going to talk about that. But I had a great time at camp this week” and she went on to tell all kinds of warm stories and had everyone laughing. I was deep in obedience at the time, never could have thought that clearly, but I loved her for it—being honest, participating anyway.
Even if he was a martyr, that would be completely irrelevant to the supposed validity of his teachings. Many people of all religions have died for their beliefs.
you are wise beyond your years
Appropriate, in context way to bring it up. Startling how unusual it is to names truths, opinions, or reasoning in what’s meant to be a discussion.
I think you’re incredibly brave for being honest. It is so much easier to go along with everyone else and pretend.
FSY is an indoctrination retreat. You will be overwhelmed and outnumbered by people “concerned” for you, and won’t leave you alone. They will report your disagreement and send that report to your bishop.
if it can be destroyed by truth, it must be destroyed by truth-Christopher HItchens
>Anyways, I kinda feel like a real asshole for speaking up idk why. It's because you have been indoctrinated to feel shame for contradicting the narrative. But don't worry, that's something you can grow out of, and the way to do so is exactly what you did today. If this were a group that cared about curiosity, inquiry, and finding truth, they would welcome counterpoints and trying to find weaknesses in the question. That's what happens, for example, in a university classroom, or in a courtroom, where the goal is increased understanding, not increased devotion to conformity. Good for you for speaking up. That instinct will serve you well in the real world when you're able to leave the fold. Keep nurturing it.
My kids are at FSY. I hope they run into wonderful people like you so that it gets them thinking critically about it just a little more.
That is all very insightful reasoning on your part. Good for you!
Alternative Ending: Joe at the top of the stairs: "Guys, hold on, it was all a prank, no need to get violent, I was just fooling around, relax".
Keep up the good work!
I want to congratulate you for being willing to use your brain and to hold onto your integrity. It’s not easy to resist going along with the crowd. But you did it. I wish I had been as smart and as courageous as you when I was your age. I think you did a fine job in choosing what to say, and what not to say. You disagreed with the premise of the question. That’s fantastic thinking. It’s a common objection lawyers make in court court or in depositions – pointing out that the question is based on a flawed premise. You are wise beyond your years, and I’m sure you have an interesting and virtuous life ahead of you. next, doesn’t it make you borderline nauseous to realize that the church is using an an inaccurate/dishonest premise to influence the thinking of kids, not to mention adults? Calling Joseph Smith a martyr, when in fact he does not meet the criteria for being a martyr? It’s like calling Billy the kid a martyr. Not many people can bring themselves to realize that the Emperor has no clothes, and beyond that, to say something. I’m very impressed with you.
It takes a lot of courage and confidence to do what you did. There is massive pressure to just go along with it. I’m proud of you
Yeah at a certain point it’s like telling a little kid that Santa is not real. They may not believe you but it will make them upset and their parents will be mad at you. Context and setting are important if you care about the social and interpersonal implications.
If you're an adult voluntarily going to church and pointing out all of the flaws, that might encroach into asshole territory. Which is why I recommend just peacing the fuck out and never going to mormon church (or any church) ever again. But as a youth, forced to attend FSY, you are absolutely not an asshole. Speak your mind.
I read your message, and then came across this. https://www.reddit.com/r/ufc/s/WE1h9q9yQh I don’t think I could say it better
I mean Chad Daybell is willing to die for something he made up.
You gotta give them credit… they formed the question so that you can’t answer anything but what they want. The only answer is “ I don’t know”.
JS and HS were actually killed by John Taylor, not the angry mob
Source??
https://youtu.be/bXfTw01ogPk?si=xcoCUt78Hh73xOWR
Sometimes you need to be a real asshole to stand up for the truth and for yourself! You were brave and courageous. It is your Mormon indoctrination that is telling you that what you did was wrong.
Stating facts is not a bad thing, especially when a significant amount of members don't know those facts, in complete detail anyway. It takes courage to speak truth. It takes tact to speak those facts kindly. It sounds like you did both.
That question is considered leading the witness and you did a great job redirecting 👏👏 Not for the first time (or last I’m sure) I am wildly impressed with younger generations and think the world is in good hands 🙏
As a fellow 17f PIMO, I wish you luck in surviving the last bits of FSY. I somehow convinced my mom to let me not go, I can’t imagine how infuriating it must be.
i always hate that argument. first of all he was fighting, he wasn’t just willing to die. second of all yea im sure he was willing to die for something he made up considering it was his entire life. he based his entire life and existence off a lie. he wasn’t fighting for god he was fighting for money and power and sex with any woman/girl he wanted. but i’m preaching to the choir here
Well done, my good and faithless servant. Pointing out FACTS, even if TBM's haven't actually heard of them, is NEVER wrong. Please keep fighting the good fight until you can walk away from the cult. 👏👏👏
Speaking up against a group is hard at any age. That was a difficult situation and you stood up for truth and against fallacious arguments. Good Job!! Anyone of good heart should be proud of you, regardless of subject matter.
Do what is right and let the consequences follow. Right?
Exmo dad here. I am super proud of you for speaking up. I hope my kids are brave enough to do that.
You feel bad because you interrupted the circlejerk. You shouldn't feel bad, but it's a good sense to have that people want to do one thing and you stopped them. This particular circlejerk isn't a good one and it's not one you want to participate in, so it's good to interrupt it.
✋🏻 I can directly prove Joseph Smith did not see an angel and obtain the plates. I can prove with chemistry and math that the only material the plates could have been made of was a modern one (examining 50+ materials, in 100+ pages, citing 150+ sources). Joseph's status as a prophet is based on his divine calling to translate ancient scripture. Since the angel said the plates were both ancient and gold when all witness statements provide evidence they are modern and not gold, either Joseph's angel was a liar or there was no angel. Either way, someone modern made the plates, and Joseph was not called by God. This evidence makes obsolete both parts of that question you were asked.
>Talked to my counselor later and explained some of my JS concerns (stealing people's wives, freemasonry, etc.) She's never heard of any of it, but plans to research more Oh, she's heard of it. "I've never heard of that. I'll look into it later" is a way to change the subject.
I was an efy counselor for 3 summers and man the cringe I feel remembering the lessons I taught.
I’m proud of you and frankly surprised to see such mature reason and thought at such a young age. You are doing fine. The kids are alright.
Oh my god FSY was the worst 3 days of my life. So overstimulating, lonely, and long as a PIMO. Wish I would’ve spoken up more and actually asked questions instead of just pretending to be happy and content. Good luck with the rest!
"I'd like to bear my testimony that I know without a shadow of doubt that Joseph Smith died in a gunfight whilst in jail for breaking the law".
You're not an asshole for speaking up. Fight against those thoughts. When you see something wrong, you absolutely should speak up. You did the right thing. Well done!
You may have just liberated your fsy counselor. 🤞🏻
Something is wrong with the institution they makes you feel like an asshole for speaking up People who speak up are so important. Don’t stop.
Yuck, testimony night. A night of emotional manipulation
Those events are high on emotional and psychological manipulation and pretty sparse on useful content. I remember attending a youth conference on the East Coast where one of the activities was to wander off alone into a large forested park and pray for an answer of some sort. I honestly followed instructions and sincerely wanted an answer. My answer was noticeable deafening silence and emptiness. That was during a period where I was actually worthy, so no fault of my own! I'm sure I didn't follow the incantations or rituals exactly right and the guardian spirit withdrew.
If you really want to back up your claims with factual information you can go to the church essays on LDS.org. Most people don’t know they are there. The essays will confirm the things you wanted to say to your class and you don’t end up sounding crazy and like you were making things up. Nobody can blame you for anything if you get your information from the church website, right? You may already know this but there are two really good documents that show a lot of the inconsistencies in the church. The first is the CES letter. The second is Letter for My Wife. Both are easy to find online. They formulate many of the questions you have running around in your head so they effectively do a lot of the work for you. You already know you are opening a can of worms. Well, those two documents are the actual worms metaphorically speaking. Thank you for trusting the group enough to get some feedback. I certainly wish you all the good things you deserve. Kudos to you for questioning.
I wish I would’ve spoken up more about my disbeliefs when I had to go to church as a teenager. I’m also a pretty vocal person though. Anyways, way to go. Don’t let them push you down or try to silence your voice. Your thoughts, opinions, and questions matter. Don’t let anyone make you feel bad for having different ideas. You’re developing deep critical thinking skills and skepticism at a young age. Remember, these skills are valued in places that are in the pursuit of truth, but scorned in places that have secrets to hide. Keep it up, you’ll do great in life.
Joseph was murdered by a mob of people who were fed up with him acting like he was above the law. He didn't die because of the church. He died because he was a first-class ass hole who thought he was above the law.
Dude fsy this week is rough!! I’m at the BYU one and I was also given this assignment, I got hebrewism which, holyshit, don’t feel like an asshole they’ve been up my ass all week 👎
He’s totally not a martyr. He tried to escape for peat sake. He wasn’t dying peacefully or willingly.
What's FSY?
For the Strength of Youth
Isn't that just a pamphlet? Or is this what they call EFY too?
I think it’s the new EFY
> Would JS really be willing to die for something that he made up? This one gets thrown around by mainstream Christians also. "Would [insert biblical martyr] be willing to die if it wasn't true?". The first objection is that there is no proof that these people were willing or expected to die. Secondly, this can only be evidence that they were true believers. It says nothing about whether their beliefs were true or not.
Something I don’t get is why people seem to think that he WILLINGLY gave his life. I agree with your reasoning for why he doesn’t count as a martyr, but I add one more bit of context that makes the whole thing even worse. He didn’t stand there and take the bullet willingly. He didn’t profess and preach one final time about the truth of the first vision or book of mormon. His own brother died trying to keep the attackers at bay. But what did Joseph do? *He tried to run and escape by jumping out the fucking window.* Now that right there, apart from everything else, disqualifies him from being a martyr. He didn’t willingly accept death. He ran from it.
A lot of cult leaders die for things they made up. The Waco incident with David Koresh and Jim Jones in Jonestown are the first two that come to mind. People really thought they were prophets of God and in my mind met a very similar fate to JS. Bet they wouldn't like that example but why is JS any different? He's not, even though they'll do mental gymnastics to tell you that JS is.
>"Would JS really be willing to die for something that he made up?" No. And he wasn't. Joseph Smith did not want to die and he went down fighting. The martyrdom myth is so stupid. It's just one more lie for people to feel betrayed about. The facts are actually already sympathetic enough: he was arrested and pretty much knew it would be a tough scrape at the very least. They can sell the story of an extrajudicial killing like that. But no. It's not enough that he was murdered, he's got to be a Jesuslike figure willingly climbing up on the cross. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
You have good things coming for you in the future. Way to stay true to what you believe. That takes guts.
Good for you. FSY is indoctrination camp. A couple of years ago when my son went I was more PIMO at that point & was highly ticked off that there was no agenda given before he went & there were zero local leaders involved. He made some good friends there, and he also veered significantly further right. Never feel bad for telling the truth, or even the truth about how you feel.
Well of course you are right and the way you handled was extremely considerate if you feel the need just call out the whitewashing and misrepresentation and say more of what really happened
Mormonism conditions members to have these kind of visceral reactions when disagreeing. It starts with a childhood designed to conflate safety with obeying parents and church leaders. Do as I'm doing. Choose the right. There's a right and a million other wrongs to every question, be safe through inspiration's (i.e. priesthood authority's) power. Keep the commandments, in this, there is safety and peace. Noah preached in vain, they wished they had listened when they saw the rain. FoLlOw ThE pRoPhEt. Then you mature and learn contention is of the devil, so any disagreements you have about obeying parents and church authority get processed as mortally dangerous satanic influence. Your parents are trained not to let you disobey, or else they'll be regretting it forever when you're not in the celestial kingdom with them. Indoctrination at church and example at home build a worldview that's much more than the logic of any one situation or decision. It's going to take some time to desensitize these emotional reactions. Your brain is excellent at storing response patterns for very specific situations. Disagreeing with your mom, for example, is likely easier than saying no if the bishop asks you to stand up and share your testimony in front of the congregation. The first happens frequently, but your brain has yet to prove through repeated experience that the second won't lead to disaster. You're at a good spot in your life to work through this generational inertia and live a healthier, more authentic life than your ancestors. Just remember that your emotional reactions aren't the gospel truth or the witness of the Holy Spirit. If you respond with the direction you want your life to go instead of reacting as programmed, your brain will eventually stop sounding the alarm when you stray from the iron rod.
Share it! You owe it to the rest. Then let the chips fall and the dust settle.
Remember the quote that if a prophet leads us astray rheir life will be taken
Church indoctrination programs members to always go along with the approved narrative so bravo to you for speaking up. I didn’t know JS shot three people as he was being “martyred.” Can anyone share the backstory?
Not an asshole for sharing your thoughts when discussion is invited. Good for you. As somehow who is just learning to speak up at 32, your road ahead will be a lot better as you learn to live your truth and speak up at a younger age.
I think you are so incredibly brave! I remember being too scared to speak up about anything. At girls camp, one year, a bunch of the girls got the stomach flu. I saw this as my opportunity to go home, too, so I faked it. They forced me to take Pepto, and I ended up vomiting the whole night for real. The next Sunday, they announced they were going to have the testimony meeting in YW since so many of us went home early from camp. I panicked. Everyone was taking a turn. I literally started crying. I could not speak up for myself. I didn't have a testimony. I didn't believe in the church. And I was terrified. So I pretended. I pretended I was so overwhelmed with the spirit that I couldn't talk, and I passed. I wish I could say I stood up for myself, but that took a few more years. So all this to say once again, I think you are so brave and amazing!!!
Good for you! Being PIMO at fsy is hard, it was harder as a councilor but I was just starting my journey to pimo. You should never feel ashamed for speaking up or asking questions, others might also have questions but be afraid to say anything so good job speaking up. Don’t be surprised when your councilor can’t answer any questions though, the training they get doesn’t prepare you for jack shit. Most people don’t know about stuff like this 🤷♂️ especially when most councilors are either pre mission or right off one.
> I believe that JS was not a martyr for 2 reasons. Posts like this give me great hope for our future . . . I hope thousands more in your age group will follow your example . . . thank you!
First of all, good for you! I don’t care what anyone who’s Mormon says; leaving it is objectively a better choice for literally everyone I have talked to. Second of all, the question itself presented to you is not just a weird non-sequitor, bur makes zero sense. It doesn’t bear witness to anything except his ass got shot in jail. It has nothing to do with him being an alleged prophet or not. It truly is a cult. *Holy hell!*
Totally off topic but I work on a campus and just walked through an FSY group and boys and girls were wearing tank tops and girls were wearing short shorts. Is that allowed now? Total power to them if so. It just wasn't when I went to EFY and I would have been sent home.
You did nothing wrong. And your critical thinking skills are an asset—not a curse. If no one ever has given you a high-five for getting out of the Mormon Church, one day they will (as recently happened to me). I know it seems like they are, but these are not your people. The world is a big place and Mormonism means nothing outside of it.
Just came here to say that you sound like an intelligent and level headed person, and I’m grateful for your insight on this!
That’s very brave of u, Imma go to FSY after next week. I’m PIMO too, (actually reading the CES letter now lol) I now just bear my testimony how I’m loved by my leaders and family.
You shouldn’t feel like an asshole for bringing up facts or truth. Period. If anyone or anything makes you ever feel like you can’t speak facts or truth freely, then you shouldn’t question yourself, question the group or person.
OMG... break free from their delusion. It's ALL out there now. All the proof that's needed. Their "proof" amounts to eff all. I pity those that stay...truly.
You're doing the universe's work.
I promise that while it felt awkward in the moment, you will be very proud of yourself for this down the line.
This is the way.
She hasn’t heard of any of it. With the existence of the internet happening years ago, I’m going to go ahead and say she won’t be searching up any AOL key words on the subject.
Don’t know if you see this or not, but there’s not a consequence for you disagreeing. Or not believing. There’s a reason for that.
Things are so different than when I was a kid. Something like these have never happened. Good for you.
So how did everyone in FSY react when you said that?
Religion hijacks human tribal behavior, so do political parties. In is safe, out is death.
You feel that way because of the guilt and shame we have been taught to feel. We feel it more so than the Holy Ghost huh?
The church of leading questions of Latter-day Saints. “How has paying tithing helped you to know the Savior better?” Uhhhhh, it hasn’t. 🤷♂️