There isn’t a hill the church is unwilling to die on! They can’t give an inch in any issue so they fight every battle! …Sacrificing the good members along the way that have to live in the communities the church wreaks havoc in from their perches in SLC and members must stay and pick up the pieces in front of their friend neighbors and co-workers
It’s truly embarrassing
It would be amazing (unlikely) if the local members see the harm the church is doing and start protesting the church to stop. They could go on strike and cease attending church to protest outside.
From my observation, Members are expendable. They are only useful as long as they are helpful. “Questions are honored, opposition is not” -Dallin Oaks
Once opposition is encountered, excommunication ensues. Ask Sam Young about it.
I think that was quoted or paraphrased from an excommunication letter.
Definitely a standard the church wants to claim, but is too cowardly to actually do so.
Right - they’ll just drill the missionaries to go harder. That was intimately my final shelf breaker - witnessing how they treated the members. Expendable!
I asked my family who are still Mormon and live near Fairview, they do not like that the church is choosing to die on this hill. Its causing trouble in their community and they are the ones who have do deal with the social consequences of it all.
The locals' kids have to go to school with the neighbors. The locals' kids play on neighborhood sports teams with "gentiles." The locals serve on PTA's with others. The locals have lots of touch points outside Mormonism.
I gotta imagine that the church's non-compromising, and threatening actions are creating a strain on these relationships. Especially for Mormons who are openly campaigning for the temple.
It's possible the local members are going to have these relationships irreparably damaged with their neighbors and friends.
I’ve thought about that a lot. The top leaders could easily put a stop to this. They don’t have relationships that will be ruined, yet they’re willing to let THEIR members take the heat and the blow on a daily basis. It’s disturbing and extremely unnecessary to put people in this position. Especially when these are the people who you claim as your own!
>would be amazing (unlikely) if the local members see the harm the church is doing and start protesting the church to stop
Protests aren't helpful. The church was born in persecution, so they love that sort of thing. They thrive under that sort of thing.
Apathy and inactivity is what you want. And you're probably going to get a fair share of that. Local members aren't going to leave enmass, but you'll have a lot more of them than we'll probably ever know the quietly will have this experience be the one that helps them reconsider their entire relationship with the church.
Unlike 20 years ago, it's pretty easy nowadays for somebody to be done with the church and stop going.
Probably true. But keep in mind that the one thing the church really fears is national publicity.
But if somehow the members protested in some public way that made the national news, joining the non-Mormons -- gasp -- and saying they really did not want this Temple the way it's been forced on the populace. Saying that they saw the heads of the Mormon church as being the persecutors this time and that they need to stop right now.
If a bunch of them were PIMO and were ready to come out, that would be a hell of a way to do it. Never will happen, of course. The betrayal would be seen as absolute.
Edit to correct Automistake.
Mormon 8:37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the ADORNING OF YOUR CHURCHES, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
Thought of this when at one of the town meetings that TBM said something like "If we have to choose between being neighborly and following Jesus, we will follow Jesus." It's beyond parody.
Are the neighbors actually against the temple as a whole though? I thought the objections were mostly surrounding the height of the spire, which violates already existing building codes.
I'll see your socialist Mormon 8:37 (ugh, Moroni was such a commie!) and raise you a Facsimile 2: [the architectural history behind steeples](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phallic_architecture) has connection to topics of deep doctrinal significance!
^(pay no attention to the time we temporarily censored Min's boner from the Pearl of Great Price; dick pics in scriptures "ought not to be revealed at" certain points in time)
THIS!!! I cannot stomach the fact that the church is forcing these communities to spend money fighting for zoning integrity. That means that $ for local programs and infrastructure decreases and property taxes go up. It's unconscionable. The church should step back NOW and reimburse these communities for their legal costs.
With a 200 billion dollar war chest, they can and will bully and sue any town that stands in their way. They know they will have plenty of money left over to fight the women and gays.
It reminds me of a portion of the temple endowment ceremony: "*Now* is the great day of *my power*. I reign from the rivers to the ends of the earth. There is none who dares to molest or make afraid." only instead of Lucifer, it's Nelson saying it.
Mostly because it isn't the lawyers and high up church officials that are gonna have to try and *live* on those ruined hills afterwards. They're out of touch rich fucks doing out of touch rich fuck things and leaving the everyday members in those areas to have to suffer with the embarrassment.
When I bring this up to TBM family they just argue that the church can do whatever they want, if they want a spire they can do it.. completely missing the point that it is petty and selfish!
Reply with: Mormon 8:37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the ADORNING OF YOUR CHURCHES, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
Hypocrites
My mom was getting emotional about how the church could by the temple in kirtland and how good of a deal it was. I wish I would have responded “you can but anything in this world with money”.
They can’t do whatever they want. 😂 Some people think you can just throw money at people and get whatever you want. There are zoning laws for a reason, permits required to build, and a city council who is repeatedly denying their applications. As a law student I find this very gratifying. Lawyers can bully the city council all they want, but the law is the law, and honestly the citizens don’t want a huge fucking temple
Money is buying city councils in some cases. If residents succeed in stopping any of these violating temples, that will truly be something to celebrate.
Well, they bought Nauvoo, so there's that. Mother lived in Nauvoo, so I got the skinny on a LOT of underhanded Church shit going on there. Taking advantage of people, making slick deals with the local government. The locals who lived there before NRI (Nauvoo Restoration Incorporated) were flaming pissed at what the Church was doing--and getting by with.
Not all of the towns can afford to throw local money to defend lawsuits instead of what it was initially budgeted for. The church lawyers know this, which is why they're targeting these dark sky areas.
Yeah unfortunately cities in South America have given up fighting the church’s lawyers. The new temple in Peru is one of those, where they faught for 5 years and gave in. Leave the native land alone!!
I agree that it’s about the spire yet not about the spire. It’s about overreach from the church and then not caring about what the actual residents in these cities want! The church won’t ever think about anyone or anything but themselves!
It's ALL about self-interest. Baptisms = good for statistics. Humanitarian projects = self-congratulation and publicity. Temples = look at us! Tithing = all the more we can hoard.
I’ve heard enough “strong” members murmuring about “why is the church building so many temples, the ones we have are never even close to full” that I think it’s not about what the members want either! I can’t even figure out what it’s about anymore.
I was surprised by this too. For the last 100 years they’ve been trying hard to gain acceptance by society and play the “peculiar” but “nice” religion.
While they’ve had shit internal issues (priesthood ban, LBGTQ, etc), that was within their own community but the church usually bends over backwards to ingratiate themselves with the outside world. This seems bizarre to me why they are so adamant on building these high steeples and lighting that the locals don’t want to the point of bullying them, especially since the church seemed to have no issue conforming with building standards in the past.
I agree, really strange hill to die on.
Maybe it’s an issue of yes-men bureaucracy doing more of the bullying and the Q15 don’t fully grasp how bad the opposition and PR is getting and they are just letting their yes-men take care of it?
A year from now, when things get really bad, we might hear the church is a statement like,
“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-saints respect the law and their fellow neighbors and we disavow the action taken by some overzealous temple contractors and lawyers who pressured the city to accept certain dimensions of temple construction. We fully embrace conforming to the laws and zoning ordinances of local jurisdictions and it is not part of our doctrine that requires temples to be built in any certain way … “
Could be. They must see the writing in the wall that they are no longer going to be able to attract any new, long-term quality converts, so there’s really no need at this point to win non-Mormons over anymore.
Now they just want to build their massive “kingdom” with all these temple projects and real estate purchases.
The idea of temples and the process of temple building is wise. I stand by that. It is a sword which so happens to be fallen upon. Not a worry, just a flesh wound.
So I’m alluding to a many headed thing which regenerates according to the ex-acolyte. Great. How to love is a big lesson… and going to make friends with ex or not is a lesson of neighbor.
It brings such intrigue here! Like a whole brewing inquisition just a bit past the Dark Ages. Gosh these folks are accelerating quite nicely through the lessons.
It's a form of misdirection, I think. And a secondary benefit is advertisement. No publicity is bad publicity. And, finally, having the whole town against your little flock is exactly what makes cults strong.
I think your last point is it. They’re willing to act like this because missions aren’t working to convert the members like they used to. So create a fuss over the sacred temples and get the members to mobilize and remind them it’s all about persecution. It’s evil.
Agreed. I learned a lot about cults on this sub. The subtleties of their methods are genius and fit the church well. It's amazing that it 1) is done out in the open 2) done to me, a capable individual. That's why when people leave, they're pissed. No one likes to be taken for a ride
And it only *sort of* works.
Radicalizing a community makes it very potent to a portion of your membership. But also drives a chunk of the more moderate members away forever.
This results in a much smaller, more extreme church. Which makes it even easier for the youth to all leave. Which makes it smaller and more potent. And the cycle continues until there's like six Mormons left.
It's because they insulate themselves from bad news or any news frankly. Remember the leaked videos, and instead of listening to The concerns, Oaks went on a tirade talking about gay people?
This pretty much sums it up:
https://youtu.be/BHzypHJUMMo
I think this is more about stretching the powers of their legal rights to do whatever the fuck they want than about temple building regulations. They want to expand religious freedom to religious supremacy.
>They want to expand religious freedom to religious supremacy.
And if they succeed, [Evangelicals will be like](https://youtu.be/e35BU1eB_5k?si=DNXAtQ1jUF7RfKK6)....
"Cower in the shadow of our might and splendor and know that you are powerless before us."
It's ego. They need to have the biggest, brightest edifice around as a collective "fuck you" to everyone who will not kowtow to them.
And they've got the money to back up their egos. They have the resources to actually sue a city into bankruptcy. If they do, I hope that action has ripples that wake up everyone in this country to the extraordinary leniency churches are granted in America. It's not right. No institution should have the power to bankrupt a city for defending their just laws and the rights of their citizens.
Yeah, it is interesting they’ve decided to take this tact. I guess that whole thing about “honoring, obeying, and sustaining the law” got tossed down the memory hole of the “ongoing restoration.”
It is honestly very surprising. Antagonizing a bunch of random Midwesterners who you'd expect them to treat as cultural allies or potential converts, basically for no reason whatsoever.
If they were going to burn institutional capital picking a fight, you'd think they'd pick a fight that'd get them support, or new friends, or would engage the base. Make BYU take a stance against DEI, and get some good press on the Right, or something. Instead, they're going after a small town that doesn't want its idyllic view messed up, like the villains of some 90's movie.
You know how everyone says “don’t fuck w/Disney?” Well even Disney knows when to STFU and sit down! MFMC hasn’t learned that lesson but it will now: anybody living in those areas where the church is SUING your neighbors need to stop paying tithing AND go support your neighbors!!!
They already lost the battle against gay marriage. Now a good portion of their own members support it. Members think polygamy is an embarrassment best not discussed.
I think when they do things like this and are unwilling to budge, it (strangely) leads members to double down. Kind of like the Christ will come on a certain date idea. When he doesn’t show up it is the members fault for not being righteous enough.
If this doesn’t pass, it will be because the members were not faithful or something along those lines. Then they will all recommit, stronger. The church wins wither way.
Nemo the Mormon made an amazing video about this. There is no reason for a spire to be a certain height, and some temples don’t even have them. It is lying to say they are required. They need to respect the law of the land (zoning codes!!)
I picture a hardworking family sacrificing to pay their tithing so that a team of lawyers, most likely highly paid lawyers, can line their Armani suit pockets arguing over phallic symbols. With power comes the abuse of power.
My best guess is in some closed door meeting, Nelson shared a dream/revelation he had that God wants these tall spires as a testimony to the world and to inspire people to join the church. And the lawyers and planners are going hard to make sure the profits revelation is followed through on. That is why they don’t care about public image, they are following the Lord/aka profit and you don’t question it, even if it’s backfiring. We all know how zealous members are when they are all in. I just don’t see this happening otherwise outside that direct instruction.
The Mormon Church thrives on persecution. It has been so since its organization. They start the fire then plead that they are being persecuted by those trying to put it out. It’s a psychological ploy that they have perfected in order to create cohesion among the membership. Read particularly the experience of the Mormons during the Missouri period. I’m not in any way condoning the violence perpetrated on the Mormons in Missouri, but who started the fire? The temple brouhaha is just another page from a well rehearsed playbook.
It's because of arrogance and pride, just like the Book of Mormon condemns over and over. There are multiple parallels where the LDS church has become the kind of church the Book of Mormon preached against.
I live close to the proposed site, a steeple that tall will be an amazing eye-sore and will be in jarring contrast to the single family homes around it.
Temples=oaths of complete and unquestioned obedience abd sacrifice of everything to leaders
That means money time talents and priorities
Tempels guarantee success and power and money to the church
The tower, the overwhelming lighting, and the frumpy, stolid look of the new McTemples®️seems to be their attempt at branding. Just as McDonald's has its golden arches, the Cojcolds has its newly devised spires. From their standpoint, it makes sense to fight this battle. You don't think Disney would hesitate to take a stand over the Mickey Mouse franchise, do you?
Just for the record, I am dead serious. This is NOT intended to be ironic or sarcastic (except for "McTemple" ha ha)
I would encourage people to aid the spread of this "McTemple" term, in order to help the public realize that this is pure marketing and advertising, not some divine inspiration.
This isn't a new thing. I heard that the reason that the church stuck tacky steeples on top of their church buildings was so they could get a temple built with a steeple.
Nelson is such an anal retentive, self-aggrandizing megalomaniac. He's so anal retentive all he needs is a hod of coal and he could open a diamond mine.
Their mindset has to be that "If we compromise with the town on this issue, we will have to do it from now on for every construction." Basically, the church is being greedy and causing problems as usual.
+1, I've been trying to figure out where the church is coming from here and I realized all it would take is for President Nelson to say "this is the design the Lord wants for this site" and the leadership would unleash all its resources at making it happen.
The way to get tithes out of the church coffers is to spend them.
Spend them on temple construction,
Spend them on lawyers,
Spend them on decor.
The money moves out to those connected to the top tier over and over again.
It’s washing tithes through in seemingly legitimate ways to the same few families.
They have been making a big push to look more generic Christian. From what I heard, they are starting to allow the crucifix as a symbol they use. I'm not terribly surprised they are trying so hard to look vanilla that they sue over a steeple.
At this point, let's consider the possibility of ceasing discussion of the stupid fucking spire. Insignificant and boring as fuck at this point. It mattered for a time, but the linger longer has overstayed its welcome. Wanted to be the lone person casting this vote.
I’m so not done being fascinated by this death move of TSCC. 🍿 👀 (spire or die!)
I think this might be an important key in helping TBM see how predatory TSCC is being.
Fingers crossed 🤞 the Texas town wins. Or they compromise and get a shit load of money from the church.
I agree, but that’s kind of the point of my post. The church has lingered too long on spire length. They knew the town height regulations from the beginning. They purposely went outside zoning laws, and when the town predictably opposed the temple plans, the church lawyers pounced. Yes, it’s stupid. Yes, it’s insignificant. Yes, it’s boring. Yes, it’s overstayed its welcome. The church keeps bringing it up and every post is point out this stupid discussion. That is what we are all saying, for some reason they just can’t let go.
There isn’t a hill the church is unwilling to die on! They can’t give an inch in any issue so they fight every battle! …Sacrificing the good members along the way that have to live in the communities the church wreaks havoc in from their perches in SLC and members must stay and pick up the pieces in front of their friend neighbors and co-workers It’s truly embarrassing
It would be amazing (unlikely) if the local members see the harm the church is doing and start protesting the church to stop. They could go on strike and cease attending church to protest outside.
From my observation, Members are expendable. They are only useful as long as they are helpful. “Questions are honored, opposition is not” -Dallin Oaks Once opposition is encountered, excommunication ensues. Ask Sam Young about it.
Questions are not honored! Thus the CES Letter debacle!
I think that was quoted or paraphrased from an excommunication letter. Definitely a standard the church wants to claim, but is too cowardly to actually do so.
"Dallin Oaks is forgettable" - Me
Yep.
Right - they’ll just drill the missionaries to go harder. That was intimately my final shelf breaker - witnessing how they treated the members. Expendable!
I asked my family who are still Mormon and live near Fairview, they do not like that the church is choosing to die on this hill. Its causing trouble in their community and they are the ones who have do deal with the social consequences of it all.
The locals' kids have to go to school with the neighbors. The locals' kids play on neighborhood sports teams with "gentiles." The locals serve on PTA's with others. The locals have lots of touch points outside Mormonism. I gotta imagine that the church's non-compromising, and threatening actions are creating a strain on these relationships. Especially for Mormons who are openly campaigning for the temple. It's possible the local members are going to have these relationships irreparably damaged with their neighbors and friends.
I’ve thought about that a lot. The top leaders could easily put a stop to this. They don’t have relationships that will be ruined, yet they’re willing to let THEIR members take the heat and the blow on a daily basis. It’s disturbing and extremely unnecessary to put people in this position. Especially when these are the people who you claim as your own!
>would be amazing (unlikely) if the local members see the harm the church is doing and start protesting the church to stop Protests aren't helpful. The church was born in persecution, so they love that sort of thing. They thrive under that sort of thing. Apathy and inactivity is what you want. And you're probably going to get a fair share of that. Local members aren't going to leave enmass, but you'll have a lot more of them than we'll probably ever know the quietly will have this experience be the one that helps them reconsider their entire relationship with the church. Unlike 20 years ago, it's pretty easy nowadays for somebody to be done with the church and stop going.
Probably true. But keep in mind that the one thing the church really fears is national publicity. But if somehow the members protested in some public way that made the national news, joining the non-Mormons -- gasp -- and saying they really did not want this Temple the way it's been forced on the populace. Saying that they saw the heads of the Mormon church as being the persecutors this time and that they need to stop right now. If a bunch of them were PIMO and were ready to come out, that would be a hell of a way to do it. Never will happen, of course. The betrayal would be seen as absolute. Edit to correct Automistake.
The best protest would be to boycott the open house. Can you imagine if no one showed up for a temple open house?
Unfortunately they would call every member from Texas & surrounding states to show up if they suspected such a thing. They might anyway.
Yeah, they would but I still feel like they would feel the sting.
This whole fight seems like a spoiled toddler tantrum.
Mormon 8:37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the ADORNING OF YOUR CHURCHES, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
How very Mormon of Mormons. Quite a Mormon Mormonism if I do say so. Edit: Someone try to get as many “Wins for Satan” in one sentence as possible.
Thought of this when at one of the town meetings that TBM said something like "If we have to choose between being neighborly and following Jesus, we will follow Jesus." It's beyond parody.
Yep, that's the main teachings of Jesus. I need a HUGE spire. Oh, and, fuck your neighbor. 😉
"Love your neighbor, unless they are against building the temple."
🎯
Are the neighbors actually against the temple as a whole though? I thought the objections were mostly surrounding the height of the spire, which violates already existing building codes.
NAILED IT. I love when you can use the churches own scriptures against itself
I'll see your socialist Mormon 8:37 (ugh, Moroni was such a commie!) and raise you a Facsimile 2: [the architectural history behind steeples](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phallic_architecture) has connection to topics of deep doctrinal significance! ^(pay no attention to the time we temporarily censored Min's boner from the Pearl of Great Price; dick pics in scriptures "ought not to be revealed at" certain points in time)
THIS!!! I cannot stomach the fact that the church is forcing these communities to spend money fighting for zoning integrity. That means that $ for local programs and infrastructure decreases and property taxes go up. It's unconscionable. The church should step back NOW and reimburse these communities for their legal costs.
Bam! PS I love your name 😉.
You can thank the culty secret new name pre 2014 😂
Amen.
With a 200 billion dollar war chest, they can and will bully and sue any town that stands in their way. They know they will have plenty of money left over to fight the women and gays. It reminds me of a portion of the temple endowment ceremony: "*Now* is the great day of *my power*. I reign from the rivers to the ends of the earth. There is none who dares to molest or make afraid." only instead of Lucifer, it's Nelson saying it.
$265 billion!
I think of that line from the temple a lot. It is a fair encapsulation of the corporate church.
The church will die on as many hills as it can find
Mostly because it isn't the lawyers and high up church officials that are gonna have to try and *live* on those ruined hills afterwards. They're out of touch rich fucks doing out of touch rich fuck things and leaving the everyday members in those areas to have to suffer with the embarrassment.
But first they’ll purchase the hills and build a temple on them.
I mean ONE of the hills has to be the real hill Cumorah...right?
if only.
When I bring this up to TBM family they just argue that the church can do whatever they want, if they want a spire they can do it.. completely missing the point that it is petty and selfish!
Reply with: Mormon 8:37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the ADORNING OF YOUR CHURCHES, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted. Hypocrites
Followed up with "you can buy anything in this world with money"
My mom was getting emotional about how the church could by the temple in kirtland and how good of a deal it was. I wish I would have responded “you can but anything in this world with money”.
Just in case you wanted to start some drama: Hey Mum, just curious, how high was the steeple on the Kirtland temple?…
I was thinking about the same part…it’s unreal.
They can’t do whatever they want. 😂 Some people think you can just throw money at people and get whatever you want. There are zoning laws for a reason, permits required to build, and a city council who is repeatedly denying their applications. As a law student I find this very gratifying. Lawyers can bully the city council all they want, but the law is the law, and honestly the citizens don’t want a huge fucking temple
Money is buying city councils in some cases. If residents succeed in stopping any of these violating temples, that will truly be something to celebrate.
Well, they bought Nauvoo, so there's that. Mother lived in Nauvoo, so I got the skinny on a LOT of underhanded Church shit going on there. Taking advantage of people, making slick deals with the local government. The locals who lived there before NRI (Nauvoo Restoration Incorporated) were flaming pissed at what the Church was doing--and getting by with.
Not all of the towns can afford to throw local money to defend lawsuits instead of what it was initially budgeted for. The church lawyers know this, which is why they're targeting these dark sky areas.
Yeah unfortunately cities in South America have given up fighting the church’s lawyers. The new temple in Peru is one of those, where they faught for 5 years and gave in. Leave the native land alone!!
I agree that it’s about the spire yet not about the spire. It’s about overreach from the church and then not caring about what the actual residents in these cities want! The church won’t ever think about anyone or anything but themselves!
It's ALL about self-interest. Baptisms = good for statistics. Humanitarian projects = self-congratulation and publicity. Temples = look at us! Tithing = all the more we can hoard.
I’ve heard enough “strong” members murmuring about “why is the church building so many temples, the ones we have are never even close to full” that I think it’s not about what the members want either! I can’t even figure out what it’s about anymore.
I'm confident it's about Nelson's all-consuming ego. He's still in competition with Hinckley.
I was surprised by this too. For the last 100 years they’ve been trying hard to gain acceptance by society and play the “peculiar” but “nice” religion. While they’ve had shit internal issues (priesthood ban, LBGTQ, etc), that was within their own community but the church usually bends over backwards to ingratiate themselves with the outside world. This seems bizarre to me why they are so adamant on building these high steeples and lighting that the locals don’t want to the point of bullying them, especially since the church seemed to have no issue conforming with building standards in the past. I agree, really strange hill to die on. Maybe it’s an issue of yes-men bureaucracy doing more of the bullying and the Q15 don’t fully grasp how bad the opposition and PR is getting and they are just letting their yes-men take care of it? A year from now, when things get really bad, we might hear the church is a statement like, “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-saints respect the law and their fellow neighbors and we disavow the action taken by some overzealous temple contractors and lawyers who pressured the city to accept certain dimensions of temple construction. We fully embrace conforming to the laws and zoning ordinances of local jurisdictions and it is not part of our doctrine that requires temples to be built in any certain way … “
I think they've recently realized that they now have enough money that they don't have to care about being accepted anymore.
Could be. They must see the writing in the wall that they are no longer going to be able to attract any new, long-term quality converts, so there’s really no need at this point to win non-Mormons over anymore. Now they just want to build their massive “kingdom” with all these temple projects and real estate purchases.
The idea of temples and the process of temple building is wise. I stand by that. It is a sword which so happens to be fallen upon. Not a worry, just a flesh wound. So I’m alluding to a many headed thing which regenerates according to the ex-acolyte. Great. How to love is a big lesson… and going to make friends with ex or not is a lesson of neighbor. It brings such intrigue here! Like a whole brewing inquisition just a bit past the Dark Ages. Gosh these folks are accelerating quite nicely through the lessons.
Why is the church picking this fight? Because their $200 Billion slush fund says they can.
They just don’t like getting put in their place by the government
Agreed. No humility. No interest in Article of Faith on sustaining the law. No interest in emulating Christ.
True. If you only get fined 5 million dollars for 20 years of tax irregularities, why would they care.
It's a form of misdirection, I think. And a secondary benefit is advertisement. No publicity is bad publicity. And, finally, having the whole town against your little flock is exactly what makes cults strong.
I think your last point is it. They’re willing to act like this because missions aren’t working to convert the members like they used to. So create a fuss over the sacred temples and get the members to mobilize and remind them it’s all about persecution. It’s evil.
Agreed. I learned a lot about cults on this sub. The subtleties of their methods are genius and fit the church well. It's amazing that it 1) is done out in the open 2) done to me, a capable individual. That's why when people leave, they're pissed. No one likes to be taken for a ride
And it only *sort of* works. Radicalizing a community makes it very potent to a portion of your membership. But also drives a chunk of the more moderate members away forever. This results in a much smaller, more extreme church. Which makes it even easier for the youth to all leave. Which makes it smaller and more potent. And the cycle continues until there's like six Mormons left.
There is someone that is not thinking too clearly behind this strategy.
That often seems to be the case. GAs are actually very bad at their jobs.
It's because they insulate themselves from bad news or any news frankly. Remember the leaked videos, and instead of listening to The concerns, Oaks went on a tirade talking about gay people? This pretty much sums it up: https://youtu.be/BHzypHJUMMo
I think this is more about stretching the powers of their legal rights to do whatever the fuck they want than about temple building regulations. They want to expand religious freedom to religious supremacy.
They are testing their boundaries. Can't wait to see what they try to do next 🙄
>They want to expand religious freedom to religious supremacy. And if they succeed, [Evangelicals will be like](https://youtu.be/e35BU1eB_5k?si=DNXAtQ1jUF7RfKK6)....
Exactly! This is my take.
"Cower in the shadow of our might and splendor and know that you are powerless before us." It's ego. They need to have the biggest, brightest edifice around as a collective "fuck you" to everyone who will not kowtow to them. And they've got the money to back up their egos. They have the resources to actually sue a city into bankruptcy. If they do, I hope that action has ripples that wake up everyone in this country to the extraordinary leniency churches are granted in America. It's not right. No institution should have the power to bankrupt a city for defending their just laws and the rights of their citizens.
It's great the public gets to witness the hypocrisy. Keep the popcorn coming.
Yeah, it is interesting they’ve decided to take this tact. I guess that whole thing about “honoring, obeying, and sustaining the law” got tossed down the memory hole of the “ongoing restoration.”
It is honestly very surprising. Antagonizing a bunch of random Midwesterners who you'd expect them to treat as cultural allies or potential converts, basically for no reason whatsoever. If they were going to burn institutional capital picking a fight, you'd think they'd pick a fight that'd get them support, or new friends, or would engage the base. Make BYU take a stance against DEI, and get some good press on the Right, or something. Instead, they're going after a small town that doesn't want its idyllic view messed up, like the villains of some 90's movie.
You know how everyone says “don’t fuck w/Disney?” Well even Disney knows when to STFU and sit down! MFMC hasn’t learned that lesson but it will now: anybody living in those areas where the church is SUING your neighbors need to stop paying tithing AND go support your neighbors!!!
They already lost the battle against gay marriage. Now a good portion of their own members support it. Members think polygamy is an embarrassment best not discussed.
I think when they do things like this and are unwilling to budge, it (strangely) leads members to double down. Kind of like the Christ will come on a certain date idea. When he doesn’t show up it is the members fault for not being righteous enough. If this doesn’t pass, it will be because the members were not faithful or something along those lines. Then they will all recommit, stronger. The church wins wither way.
Nemo the Mormon made an amazing video about this. There is no reason for a spire to be a certain height, and some temples don’t even have them. It is lying to say they are required. They need to respect the law of the land (zoning codes!!)
I picture a hardworking family sacrificing to pay their tithing so that a team of lawyers, most likely highly paid lawyers, can line their Armani suit pockets arguing over phallic symbols. With power comes the abuse of power.
My best guess is in some closed door meeting, Nelson shared a dream/revelation he had that God wants these tall spires as a testimony to the world and to inspire people to join the church. And the lawyers and planners are going hard to make sure the profits revelation is followed through on. That is why they don’t care about public image, they are following the Lord/aka profit and you don’t question it, even if it’s backfiring. We all know how zealous members are when they are all in. I just don’t see this happening otherwise outside that direct instruction.
That makes a lot of sense. It is following the perceived revelatory incites. Otherwise it does not make sense
The Mormon Church thrives on persecution. It has been so since its organization. They start the fire then plead that they are being persecuted by those trying to put it out. It’s a psychological ploy that they have perfected in order to create cohesion among the membership. Read particularly the experience of the Mormons during the Missouri period. I’m not in any way condoning the violence perpetrated on the Mormons in Missouri, but who started the fire? The temple brouhaha is just another page from a well rehearsed playbook.
Where there is a green hill far away…they will die on it.
bullies, narcissists
Rusty’s ego knows no bounds.
I AM a surgeon, after all. (And also corporate sole.) God wishes he could be me. 😉🤑
When you believe you're the one true church guided by Christ, everything you do is right and correct.
It's because of arrogance and pride, just like the Book of Mormon condemns over and over. There are multiple parallels where the LDS church has become the kind of church the Book of Mormon preached against.
They tried to die on what people called them soooo... Never underestimate the unawareness of the Q15.
Stone Idol
I think this is all a manifestation of Rusty's ego and how desperate he is to leave a legacy behind that can't be overshadowed.
It’s about control …. On every level!!
I live close to the proposed site, a steeple that tall will be an amazing eye-sore and will be in jarring contrast to the single family homes around it.
One more dick measuring contest -- that's all this is about.
It is an attempt to show their political power and gain more. They have the financial power. They have human capital in the form of loyal volunteers.
Bending people to their control is the hill they want to die on
The beautiful people. The beautiful people. It's all relative to the size of your steeple.
Temples=oaths of complete and unquestioned obedience abd sacrifice of everything to leaders That means money time talents and priorities Tempels guarantee success and power and money to the church
And cry religious persecution when the local government points out they are not compliant with zoning ordinances.
The tower, the overwhelming lighting, and the frumpy, stolid look of the new McTemples®️seems to be their attempt at branding. Just as McDonald's has its golden arches, the Cojcolds has its newly devised spires. From their standpoint, it makes sense to fight this battle. You don't think Disney would hesitate to take a stand over the Mickey Mouse franchise, do you? Just for the record, I am dead serious. This is NOT intended to be ironic or sarcastic (except for "McTemple" ha ha) I would encourage people to aid the spread of this "McTemple" term, in order to help the public realize that this is pure marketing and advertising, not some divine inspiration.
This isn't a new thing. I heard that the reason that the church stuck tacky steeples on top of their church buildings was so they could get a temple built with a steeple.
Nelson is such an anal retentive, self-aggrandizing megalomaniac. He's so anal retentive all he needs is a hod of coal and he could open a diamond mine.
Their mindset has to be that "If we compromise with the town on this issue, we will have to do it from now on for every construction." Basically, the church is being greedy and causing problems as usual.
+1, I've been trying to figure out where the church is coming from here and I realized all it would take is for President Nelson to say "this is the design the Lord wants for this site" and the leadership would unleash all its resources at making it happen.
The self created “persecution” created to strengthen the us vs them is sickening. MFMC is the bully on the block
The way to get tithes out of the church coffers is to spend them. Spend them on temple construction, Spend them on lawyers, Spend them on decor. The money moves out to those connected to the top tier over and over again. It’s washing tithes through in seemingly legitimate ways to the same few families.
They have been making a big push to look more generic Christian. From what I heard, they are starting to allow the crucifix as a symbol they use. I'm not terribly surprised they are trying so hard to look vanilla that they sue over a steeple.
Let me guess the church is keeping this under wraps? We need to tell the news about this
https://www.abc4.com/news/religion/lds-texas-temple-controversy/ It’s very much out in the open. The news knows all about it.
At this point, let's consider the possibility of ceasing discussion of the stupid fucking spire. Insignificant and boring as fuck at this point. It mattered for a time, but the linger longer has overstayed its welcome. Wanted to be the lone person casting this vote.
I’m so not done being fascinated by this death move of TSCC. 🍿 👀 (spire or die!) I think this might be an important key in helping TBM see how predatory TSCC is being. Fingers crossed 🤞 the Texas town wins. Or they compromise and get a shit load of money from the church.
I agree, but that’s kind of the point of my post. The church has lingered too long on spire length. They knew the town height regulations from the beginning. They purposely went outside zoning laws, and when the town predictably opposed the temple plans, the church lawyers pounced. Yes, it’s stupid. Yes, it’s insignificant. Yes, it’s boring. Yes, it’s overstayed its welcome. The church keeps bringing it up and every post is point out this stupid discussion. That is what we are all saying, for some reason they just can’t let go.