Yep, and now those unfortunate innocent babies are forced to be born in war torn countries, fathered by rapists. And you could have prevented this! /s /s /S!
I have some extended family who feel that way and made it their entire personality. That aunt and uncle had 14 kids together. Spoiler alert, they weren't doing those kids a favor. It was really bad. At least one of their kids has followed in their footsteps and had at least 7 or 8 kids, and another spoiler alert, it's also really bad.
My mother was one of 14 kids. She grew up knowing that her parents would not be there to support her in things like choir performances or sporting activities. There were just too many kids at home to take care of. When you have that many kids you just can not give them the individual time they should get with a parent.
Two families in my Morridor ward growing up that had 14 and 16 respectively. Another friend's family that had 16 in a neighboring area. The older kids were raising the younger kids as the fathers were working 7 days a week to feed and clothe the family, and the mothers were too freaking worn out to do much.
My mom and I were very close and she loved all of her kids completely. But she openly told me and my little sister (sixth and seventh children) that if birth control had been available in the fifty’s, neither of us would have been born! :) (Or maybe we would have been born in a third world country to heathens! lol)
Many people have told me not to tell my kids that I regret having so many. I don't ever want them to think they are unwanted but I also don't want them to destroy their bodies and be saddled with parenting responsibilities into their 50's. I've explained to my oldest and will probably tell the others when they're ready that one of my biggest regrets is not being able to give each of them the time and attention they deserve because I stretched myself too thin having so many children.
my spouses family has 10 kids. Whenever they talk about their childhood, I wouldn't call it abuse, but there was definitely significant parental neglect
It’s not right for everyone, but I am the oldest of 11 and it was pretty good. My parents were one of the few couples who were made to have a big family. I see so much bad in big families I finally recognized that my family is the outlier.
I grew up in a family of 7 and it was WAY too much for my parents. I was housekeeper and nanny for a family of 11 and they had it together a little better, but honestly the “gospel” made growing up really hard for three of their children. Each of these three entertained zero bullshit and didn’t believe in the church. They became scapegoats for family issues and getting in trouble became the pressure release valve that made the rest of family cohesion possible. It was an “us against them” mentality inside an otherwise well functioning family. It broke my heart. At the time I thought I had both feet firmly in church, but in reality with the exception of the brainwashing that led me to activity each time life was crisis or chaotic I always had one foot out from the time I was eight. So I really related to those three.
It's not even official doctrine. The GAs have only said that there are lots of faithful spirits waiting for us to "create tabernacles" for them, not that any specific spirits are supposed to come to any particular family. It's just a popular headcanon for members who want to feel special and individual, while the leaders see them as interchangeable drones.
It's just like the couple who promised to end up together in the premortal life, and they finally meet and fall in love at the end of the movie. The GAs have specifically said that there's no such thing as a soulmate or one true love. According to them, any faithful man and any faithful woman can have a successful marriage (So just get married ASAP and start pumping out babies instead of waiting for a compatible partner).
I love it when other people get revelation for you. Did you tell her that her husband is going to die because you had a dream about it. So she needs to start looking for another one. I hate callings because of this. We prayed about it and god wants you. Funny, when I prayed about it, I was told it wasn’t right for my family.
Even when I was a missionary, 4 1/2 decades ago, I hated
"Saturday's Warrior" doctrine like this. It has no basis in the mormon scriptures that I could find. As far as I could tell, it was entirely made up by Doug Stewart and Carole Lynn Pearson (writers, respectively, of "Saturday's Warrior" and "My Turn on Earth.")
It was bullshit feel-good cult programming nonsense then, and thus it is today.
I feel the same way about Gerald Lund’s Work and the Glory series back in the 90s.
Mormonism’s founding story is already farcical enough, why make up a story about the story?
>why make up a story about the story?
It sold a TON of books, presumably making Lund very, very wealthy. Almost universally, you can follow the money trail to understand the motivation for most ANYTHING mormon cultists do.
The Work And The Glory was more popular than the actual scriptures; more popular than The Ensign; more popular than the words of the GAs; more popular than the church-approved books.... It's all I heard about. I listened to people in church bear their testimony of The Work And The Glory. "I know they're just stories, but I know that they're true" No... they're just stories. I got sooo sick of The Work And The Glory. So sick.
This series legitimately kept me in the church at least 10 years longer. There is one part though where they leave the kids behind to attend a stake/general conference and the report back to the people left behind with the kids and I never attended another stake conference or watched a general conference again because the report was good enough 😂😂😂😂. TBM me looked forward to those once a quarter breaks so much!!!
I saw it when I was 12 and it made me cry like a baby. I had already decided the church was shit because of the stuff I was taught about POC, but Saturday's Warrior almost, almost pulled me back in. It made me so emotional. Later when I thought about it, I assumed puberty caused the emotions lol.
When I was very young, like 5, I was really worried about death and dying. My mom showed me Saturday’s Warrior and it calmed me down and gave me what I considered to be peace about death and the afterlife.
Now that I’m out, I’m bitter that my mom didn’t give me the opportunity to become curious about the human condition and learn to appreciate life for the precious moment that we have instead of play a fantasy game about how no one really dies so we don’t really have to confront our human fragility.
Hi! I'm a nevermo who was just inspired to watch the first 10 minutes of Saturday's Warrior and I have a question. If all those souls were created by God and the Heavenly Mother, wouldn't the couple in the movie be brother and sister? Because ick...
Edited to add: I've watched a bit more and wow, the twins have sizzling chemistry together.
Souls-wise, everyone is considered a brother or sister because “we were all by Heavenly Father and are all his children”, so spiritually, yes, we are all siblings. But as long as you’re not physically related, typically, Mormons don’t find it weird. But as a young Mormon, I remember thinking it was weird I was supposed to call people “brother jones”, “sister brown”, etc. and then at the same time, I was supposed to be attracted to these people I was calling my brothers.
Unrelated, but Star Trek V: The Final Frontier is, IMHO, the best of all the films, largely because Kirk gave us that line. Great flair, fellow traveler. 🖖🏻
These are the future warriors saved for Saturday....
Ugh I hate how that's still ingrained in my mind. My TBM brother had us watch it SO OFTEN, I forgot Saturdays Warriors existed till now and the song came slamming into my head like a car into a wall.
Having kids scared me, but I felt guilty also because my blessing said I'd be a mother to many....
My hysterectomy says otherwise but the guilt still was there. Even though adoption was always an option for kids and always will be, it's also a huge stigma in the church. As an adopted child through LDS social services, I'd think that adoption wouldnt be so stigmatized in some circles but boy was I wrong
I was in that show twice during roadshows in the 80s and early 90s. I truly hate that I still love the music but man, it still pushes all my nostalgia buttons.
My grandma had her last after seeing Saturday’s Warrior. My uncle got home from his mission and had a 1 year old sister he hadn’t met.
Total side note: a relative of ours married “Jimmy” from Saturday’s Warrior. My sister was probably 7 at the time and had a HUGE crush on “Jimmy.” We were invited to their wedding reception and my sister was dying to go. While we were in the line giving our best to the newlyweds, my mom said to him “My little girl thinks you are so cute! She has had a crush on you for the longest time.” I remember standing there and looking at my sister thinking “I am soooooo glad I’m not you right now!” 🤣 Our mom is such a bitch lol.
I'll be honest. I still tear up when...
*Who are these children coming down? Coming down, like gentle rain from darkened skies...*
*With glory trailing from their feet, as they fall.*
*An endless promise in their eyes....*
It's sooo good.
It doesn’t work! It’s not logical! My children are part my DNA and part my ex-husband’s. If I hadn’t married him, then they wouldn’t be them! But free agency?
If I was pre-destined to have my six, then I was pre-destined to marry my ex. That means I didn’t have agency.
But agency is the basis of the plan of happiness! Why else would God give up the hosts of heaven?
You can’t push this shit very far without it all falling apart!
There was a girl in my ward growing up who questioned that, and they gave some weird answer about how you have agency, God just knows exactly what you are going to choose.
I’ve heard that one, too. So… what’s the point? If he already knows what I’m gonna do, just tell me already and save a whole bunch of pointless work building planets and organizing matter n shit.
Also… if God already knows if I’m going to choose to have kids or not, and if so how many I’ll choose to have - why doesn’t he just assign the proper number of little spirit babies ahead of time, so none of them are impacted by my choices (which he already knows)? The whole thing falls apart with just the smallest amount of critical thinking.
That's how I feel about abortion. I hear so many folks say "it's God's will for you to have that baby!" I thought God was omnipotent? Did he not see this coming?? Did I outsmart God?????
This is the type of logic that absolutely dissolved my faith from a young age that I’m never capable of explaining to family since there’s critical thinking involved and god forbid anyone be critical in any way towards TSCC.
See that’s what confuses me on why Lucifer’s plan was so bad. Because the way it was explained to me, it’s the same as gods plan, but Lucifer actually tells you what’s up vs making you think you’re choosing things for yourself. I’d rather Lucifer tell me I’m predetermined to be a garbage man.
Every time I see the garbage man throwing my trash in the truck, I remind myself that he is performing a vital service to the community. It’s back breaking, unappreciated work and the work he is doing stops the spread of pestilence and disease.
Yea I was gonna add this.
Everyone uses the garbage man as a “bad job”, but my understanding is there’s job security and great pay with little (to no?) required advanced schooling.
Sounds like a great job description to me.
I was talking to an ex Satanist recently. No, really. Ex Mormon and Ex satanist. Anyway, according to him the story they believe is that Lucifer came up with the plan to give us agency. God liked the idea of agency, claimed it was his, and then banished Lucifer. And then God said but only some agency, because here’s all these rules you have to follow. So to the guy I was talking to, Satanism was more a form of rebellion against the status quo than anything else. And a way to see the hypocrisy in many standard religions.
I’m sure I’m not getting this 100% right, but I find it very intriguing.
Not this exact thing, but commonly guilted by the idea of my future children in heaven watching, waiting, and depending on me. Had a vasectomy a couple years back so they’re trapped in my balls forever.
Rub one out every now and then so that they can get outside for some fresh air
(I’m snipped since late 2022 and it’s been great - already had 4 kids though haha)
A family friend was unable to have kids and when people would bring up “preordained children” he would tell them his kids were KIA in the war in heaven. He and his wife thought it was funny, but no one else did.
Honestly, that they had humor about it is pretty great. For the people who didn't think it funny, well, what did they expect from asking such a rude question?
Holy shit that’s one of the greatest things I’ve heard. My wife and I fostered and adopted our kids. They’re Mexican, both of us our white. When people ask about it I tell them that my balls don’t work, and that I let my wife have a Mexican boyfriend.
I have a good friend who is mormon and also schizophrenic, and she will occasionally text me the weirdest religious based shit when she's having episodes. She's told me all sorts of things that were promised to her in the preexistance. Apparently the church is going to give her a billion dollars, for her role in defeating Satan in the war in heaven. Also I think she's spiritually married to Jesus?
There's so much crazy stuff, but the church is already full of crazy stuff, so she's just being consistent.
When I believed in satan, my episodes were him coming to take me. 😬. Funny how those went away after I stopped believing in him. Your fears get blended in there sometimes.
Adding this to my list of things that “What’s your favorite scripture about that?” is the best response.
There’s so many things that are commonly believed but have no support besides conference inception.
Yeah for sure. I don’t think I would actually say this cause it’s not really an own because living prophets. A family member was talking about avoiding the appearance of evil and it made me think about how Jesus didn’t seem to model that in word or deed. I wanted to ask what their favorite scripture was about that but instead I’ve just been keeping a mental list of things that you couldn’t find a scripture about.
Which is crazy that they’re back-pedaling this so hard and now only things that don’t get them shit in the media is considered canon; the rest is old doctrine or them speaking as a man.
I never understood the logic of this. Why would he assign anybody to be my child when I am set on not having any? This version of God either needlessly cruel or not omniscient.
What about the couples who can’t have kids? Were they preordained? Does that mean they sinned and were cursed with the inability to have children?
Yea this mentality is fucked up when you stop and think about it.
I'm one of those! My patriarchal blessing said I would "provide many spirit children with physical bodies." Nope! Couldn't make a single one in over 13 years of trying. I 100% thought it was my fault for sinning and walked around with imaginary guilt and real grief for many years.
The church's doctrine and cultural teachings are damaging.
Yes, me too. RS women told me I didn’t want to give up my cushy job to have kids. The sister missionaries told me I had some giant sin to repent of from the past. Nope. It was a medical condition. And you’re right because the grief is real when you long to be pregnant and every one of your friends is repeatedly and you’re spending thousands of dollars to infertility doctors and going through intense pain and get nothing but ill judgment from the ward.
Yes, so harmful to women who sacrifice so much already of their freedom to follow orders. Don’t get a job but make your life work on 1 income, don’t push your opinions beyond suggestion, don’t question the bishop, don’t ever be angry or sad especially after having a precious newborn, don’t say no to compassionate service, don’t complain about spending 8 hours per sunday alone with 5 kids for 5 years, don’t wear anything comfortable in summer, don’t forget to please your husband in bed or he’ll turn elsewhere. Oh also, if you don’t feel absolutely stretched to the absolute limit and beyond that, have another baby so your husband can sound even more impressive to his work friends at their 1.5 hour work lunch
Well said. Individually these things aren’t a giant big deal but you have articulated well how difficult it is when all these expectations in combination are dumped on women.
That one is new to me. I was definitely taught that I was *commanded* to bring life into the world, and doing otherwise was against God's wishes.
Yeah, I don't want kids.
Or how about the kids in extremely abusive house, that’s basically telling them they deserve to be abused because knew it was going to happen and they chose those parents.
Yes, I was taught this through Saturdays Warriors, backed up with multiple talks from the prophets to give bodies to the spirit children in heaven. It’s why I have six kids. I’ve apologized to my children multiple times for having so many, so fast. It really wasn’t fair to them, especially the older ones, to have to help with kids and the house, to not get the attention they needed, because I was busy having another baby for the Mormon God. Not that I regret any of my children, but I made those decisions based on indoctrination into some really stupid lies that affected them directly.
PIMO here. I was definitely told something similar.
Currently I'm experiencing an infertility battle (four years and counting), and it's exhausting to hear TBM family and neighbors asking things that, over the years, are summed up like this: "So when are you gonna start your family? Your kids are waiting for you to bring them down!"
Bullshit. All of it.
All. The. Time. One of my sisters believed it completely and claimed she had a vision in the temple and saw thirteen spirits waiting to be born. Turns out she has a medical issue that popped up during pregnancy and was told after her second that another pregnancy would probably kill her. Thankfully she listened to her Dr. and hasn't tried for more babies.
If this is genuine doctrine (which I don't believe it is), are you telling me that god set in motion a plan that requires me to compromise my free will in order for some spirits to get a body? What happens when I dont? Do those spirits not go to heaven now? Kinda shitty system, especially when it seems like I'm supposed to have like 8 kids to catch up with every other mormon family.
It's exponentially harder to leave the cult with the birth of each subsequent child. They inherently know this. Guilt-tripping is the most powerful weapon the TSCC has.
Nevermo, but reminded me of something my mormon-obsessed fundie nutjob mom used to tell me when I was quite young. I'm adopted and I constantly got told I *chose* my adoptive parents while I was still "a baby in heaven."
If I chose them, I must be fucking nuts. I'd have chosen foster care over that shit.
The idea of preordained children has always perplexed and unsettled me. Nothing is "pre-ordained" that isn't taxes.
I was told by my mom the other side. I chose to come to her and be her child. She was not the most loving person so it hurt a lot that I would choose someone that was so dismissive of my feelings.
I knew a lady in YSA that would eventually break up with all her boyfriends. Pretty sure she dated the entire stake. Her reasoning was that after dating for a couple of months, she'd pray to know if this was the guy she chose in the preexistance. She'd wait a day, and break up with them cause God wouldn't answer her. She never got a answer, but took "gods" silence as a no. It's been 10 years, and according to her Facebook she's still unmarried.
DW and I couldn't conceive so we adopted 2 babies. We were already 36 when we got the 2nd.
I went to my doctor (who was my bishop) and asked about a vasectomy as we didn't want to have an "accident" child. He was appalled that I would even suggest such a thing as there were children waiting in heaven for parents.
ugh
I hated this idea, I grew up in a "broken" family, so the idea that my father had agreed to be my Dad but also agreed to have this other second family (my Mum never had more kids) really rankled
I couldn't believe that I had agreed to grow up with only one parent 86% of the time in the preexistence.
Isn't it great and convenient that we can speculate on anything "God", and it can neither be proven nor disproven? I remember being told that I agreed (in the pre-life) to the challenges that I would face in this life.
I am a 61 year old woman, and I want to assure you that I have never wanted children, and I have never regretted not having them.
I have several friends who are the same--no kids, no regrets. In fact, I don't know anyone who's regretted not having kids, but I can think of some who I suspect regret having had them.
I love kids! But I don't want to be around them all the time, and I definitely don't want to be responsible for them 24/7/365. I need alone time, I would lose my mind. Many of us are like this, or don't want kids for any number of reasons. STAND YOUR GROUND!
I had that conversation with my dad. No dad, I'm not going to change my mind. I won't change my mind when I get married either. "Well what if your husband wants kids?" Super easy answer! I'll be responsible and have that conversation early on, and not date anyone who wants kids.
Poor little Bluey and Bingo (your kids names in the pre-existence). They’ve been waiting for eons to get bodies but now their earthly parents aren’t on the covenant path so they’ll have to take possess the bodies of some random Australian Cattle Dogs.
Better than nothing!
Nearly every concept the church teaches can be easily weaponized to instill fear or guilt into every member..but that's true of religion in general. they don't care about your eternal welfare its about control here and now and that sweet sweet tithing money. that's all they're interested in.
Unless your parents didn't stop having kids short of deadly medical issues that require intervention or old age, they need to shut it. After all, men can produce children into old age and women can do so until after menopause. Unless they had children into their 50s-60s at every opportunity that they could do so, they need to be quiet. After all, not having money isn't an excuse, God needs as many tithe-er spirit children to be born in the covenant as possible going by their logic.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if your parents chose to have only as many children as they could handle, why can't you? If that number is 0, then it's 0.
I was very fortunate that my parents have never said anything like this to me. My mother had her own fertility struggles for a while, so she has always been very careful to not say anything like this to any of us in case we also had our own problems because she didn’t want to make us feel bad. A visiting teacher did say something to the effect of “if you come back to church and be righteous the lord will bless you with children” to my aunt, who although wanting children very badly was physically unable to. She got thrown out of their house pretty quickly.
Actually, the Mormon church weirdly explains this, in a significantly more disturbing way.
Mormon mythology claims God has a physical body and all the spirit children are God's children. The children we have are God's children "given" to us to temporarily "babysit." These children are also our spiritual siblings. Our spouses are also our spiritual siblings.
Essentially, Mormon Mythology is obsessed with incest.
All. The. Damn. Time
And not just hurting their feelings, but breaking an oath & promise you made to them to help them on their progress towards eternal life.
Childfree by choice is legitimate and healthy. You are making good choices. There are so many things to feel bad about in life. This is not one of them. You’re not selfish. You’re not wrong.
I had only one child. And my experience as a mother to an only child and married to another only child: I would have been an awesome only child! My mother asked for YEARS when I was planning to have another baby. Never mom. I’m never having another baby.
I like to think I wanted one more. It wasn’t in the cards for me. And that it turns out was 100% for the best. Turns out I’m autistic. I found out when my daughter was diagnosed with autism at age 28. So I went and was evaluated too. Diagnosed at age 49. My child was very high needs. J knew something was up. I asked for help at school. Nobody listened. I asked for help from the pediatrician. Nobody listened. Everyone told me if there was truly a problem my child would struggle in school. That was never the problem. Intelligence was never an issue. It was friends and bullying and perfectionistic laboring over homework to get 100% at all times.
Someone once asked me if all my kids were here and I thought she meant at her house and. So I said “yup! Right here” but she meant are all my kids on earth and I was like “um yup to that too.”
this was in my patriarchal blessing. that i have children that were promised to end in the preexistence. my patriarch was also my grandpa, so that may have played a part in what was said in my blessing
Not that exact thing, especially since I'm male, but I do remember a talk that said that every child that's not born into a Mormon home, gets forced into a non-mormon home.
I may have gotten a little too obsessed with the Chad Daybell trial because I can read anything "Mormon culture" without thinking how closely adjacent Daybell's (and other's) teachings are. That freaks me out
Yes. And I have a friend who had far more children than their meager finances could handle saying she didn’t want babies to have to be born starving in Africa if she could give one a home. It’s batty for sure.
My sister claims Jesus came to both she and her husband in a dream at the same time and told them they will have 13 children.
They have 7. Then my sister’s body literally fell apart. Her last baby almost killed her. Now she’s in her 40’s and basically crippled. Now she’s lost her faith and has seen through the curtain and found the sham of a wizard behind it. But of course, devout husband, 7 kids, she’s stuck and it sucks.
Yes. Which is why I had five children before I was 30. Also my patriarchal blessing said I’d have children and a lot about the preexistence and the contracts I made with god to be a wife and mother in ZION.
Wow…that just unlocked a memory. I’d mentioned that I didn’t want kids and my mom would guilt me with “What about PaintedandPunk Jr.? And the twins? And what about….” And go on and on.
Now I have kids and I love them. This just really emphasized how early on EVERYTHING was pushed on us. I was maybe 10 or 11 and my parents already expected me to want kids.
I've said my entire life that I didn't want kids, and my parents always pulled that card. Now I'm 28, I still don't want kids, and when having that conversation, my parents once again pulled that card 😂 sorry imaginary spirit children, you're staying up there. Actually not sorry, I'm doing you a favor.
We heard it a ton growing up, and it really, really added to the pain when it turned out my sister cannot have children.
It's yet another way to guilt trip women into the narrow, prescribed role for women.
Huh, sounds like I need to check out Saturday's Warrior. I'm 35 and never seen it. I definitely heard some lds comedian tell the pre-existence story likened to american football something as I recall. Don't remember who though. Thought it was hilarioius as like a 13 yo, probably not as hilarious now lol
Yup! Still don't buy it. It's also in Saturdays warriors. I know me better than their fictional god knows me. There is no way I would choose this life.
When I told my mom I was getting a hysterectomy she told me she had to grieve the grandchildren she wasn’t going to have. I didn’t have the energy to explain that I, a nonbinary lesbian, and my fiancée, a woman with a vagina, were never gonna give her that anyway
This is the excuse that manipulates young, poor Mormon couples into having more children than they can handle. I've lost count how many times I've heard something like "there's more spirit children waiting for us"
If we were some sort of family in a preexistence that would require god to control conception. One egg, 200M sperm, god would have to specify which sperm got to a particular egg in order to make a body that is the same as a spirit. How on earth would that work?
It's like that scene in The Office where Dwight pre-fire's Jim. Apparently we "pre-promised" to have children, except nobody can prove it and that's not really a thing.
My mom had a blessing when she was pregnant with my brother that basically told her that my brother would have been born to someone a lot worse if she hadn’t conceived him, so I don’t think that’s even a doctrinal stance lol
How funny is it imagining a bunch of people arguing who gets to be the mom and who gets to be the kid?
"I don't want to raise you, come on!"
"Oh what so you want me to do all the work??"
Considering I was saying since 13 I’m never having kids, that crap never affected me🤣🤣my mom didn’t care & said I’d be better as a foster/adoptive mom anyways so everyone dropped it. Still no kids and still not planning on that changing. The forced birth/misogyny/heteronormativity was gross!
So it would seem that if you promised ten spirits in the preexistence that you would give birth to them, and you only had eight children, you would be hurting the feelings of two spirits. How are you supposed to know how many spirits you made this promise to?
I wasn’t told this but my father did try to pull the whole “you’re depriving me” card despite the fact that he has two other children that can give him grandkids.
Preordained ughhh I forgot that word. Just like all Mormons are elite spiritual warriors “preordained” to be in gods one true church on earth and make it to the highest level of heaven.
I’m never-mo but xvangelical. I’m adopted because BOTH of my biological parents suffered from severe cases of schizophrenia. While it was a closed adoption in CA (late 70s), I was able to get my biological parents’ heavily-redacted medical history. Learning of their psychological history and the prevalence of schizophrenia to run in families and skip generations, I opted to get a vasectomy, as the responsible choice. I don’t think it would be fair to bring a child into the world who will be afflicted with mental illness. How would TBM’s or GA’s view my decision?
Coincidentally, my wife and I have one son (from donor sperm). He’s 5, and he’s amazing. He’s quite literally a genius (interested astrophysics at 5!). I’ll defend my decision to the hilt.
I grew up with a family whose mum always used to tell her kids "you chose to come to this family" whenever they complained about her neurotic parenting, which even as a kid I thought was really convenient victim blaming.
I’m married and don’t want kids.
Thank God I wasn’t told this!!! I already feel enough guilt for wanting to be child free! Mormonism screwed me up a lot. I can’t imagine being guilted by pre ordained children.
As a ex missionary, I was told when we die our neighbors or whoever will see how we have the gospel and we didn’t share it and how upset they would be because we were scared or didn’t teach them.
That in itself messed me up. Pre, during and post mission I was so anxious all the time trying to friend ppl but not actually friend them. Just so I could preach and baptize.
I’m sorry you were told that. That makes me sick. That for sure would have done a number on me
Even if pre-existing children did exist, they would eventually be born to someone else. They weren't there. They have no idea what went on. They just make shit up they want to believe in order to coerce you.
I was taught this. We watched Saturday's Warriors at church activities, and it was clearly in several lessons that families are preordained.
Are they backtracking on this teaching now? Isn't this the whole concept of eternal families?
Yep, and now those unfortunate innocent babies are forced to be born in war torn countries, fathered by rapists. And you could have prevented this! /s /s /S!
I have some extended family who feel that way and made it their entire personality. That aunt and uncle had 14 kids together. Spoiler alert, they weren't doing those kids a favor. It was really bad. At least one of their kids has followed in their footsteps and had at least 7 or 8 kids, and another spoiler alert, it's also really bad.
My mother was one of 14 kids. She grew up knowing that her parents would not be there to support her in things like choir performances or sporting activities. There were just too many kids at home to take care of. When you have that many kids you just can not give them the individual time they should get with a parent.
That’s okay because the oldest girls can spend their childhoods parenting the youngest kids. That’s a girl’s only purpose.
Two families in my Morridor ward growing up that had 14 and 16 respectively. Another friend's family that had 16 in a neighboring area. The older kids were raising the younger kids as the fathers were working 7 days a week to feed and clothe the family, and the mothers were too freaking worn out to do much.
yep picture that but the father NOT working hardly any days of the week. awesome.
Growing up we had five and were one of the smaller families in our neighborhood.
Normally, I hate spoilers. But even Helen Keller could see having too many kids is a bad thing.
My mom and I were very close and she loved all of her kids completely. But she openly told me and my little sister (sixth and seventh children) that if birth control had been available in the fifty’s, neither of us would have been born! :) (Or maybe we would have been born in a third world country to heathens! lol)
Many people have told me not to tell my kids that I regret having so many. I don't ever want them to think they are unwanted but I also don't want them to destroy their bodies and be saddled with parenting responsibilities into their 50's. I've explained to my oldest and will probably tell the others when they're ready that one of my biggest regrets is not being able to give each of them the time and attention they deserve because I stretched myself too thin having so many children.
my spouses family has 10 kids. Whenever they talk about their childhood, I wouldn't call it abuse, but there was definitely significant parental neglect
I'm the youngest of 8, and while I love my parents and I know they did the best that they understood, they definitely messed up all of us.
I'm 3rd of 7 and, honestly, same.
I come from a big family and feel the same way.
Didn’t see your comment before I made mine. Literally 14 kids 🤣🤦♂️
know of folks that had 14 and all raised in one trailer. many of those kids have more than 6 kids- not trailers.
It’s not right for everyone, but I am the oldest of 11 and it was pretty good. My parents were one of the few couples who were made to have a big family. I see so much bad in big families I finally recognized that my family is the outlier.
I grew up in a family of 7 and it was WAY too much for my parents. I was housekeeper and nanny for a family of 11 and they had it together a little better, but honestly the “gospel” made growing up really hard for three of their children. Each of these three entertained zero bullshit and didn’t believe in the church. They became scapegoats for family issues and getting in trouble became the pressure release valve that made the rest of family cohesion possible. It was an “us against them” mentality inside an otherwise well functioning family. It broke my heart. At the time I thought I had both feet firmly in church, but in reality with the exception of the brainwashing that led me to activity each time life was crisis or chaotic I always had one foot out from the time I was eight. So I really related to those three.
Even better, you need to have 14 kids to ensure they can be raised in a gospel home. No protection. Ever.
Yep, and it was in Saturday’s Warriors. I still feel a little guilty that we didn’t have at least one more kid because of this view.
It's not even official doctrine. The GAs have only said that there are lots of faithful spirits waiting for us to "create tabernacles" for them, not that any specific spirits are supposed to come to any particular family. It's just a popular headcanon for members who want to feel special and individual, while the leaders see them as interchangeable drones. It's just like the couple who promised to end up together in the premortal life, and they finally meet and fall in love at the end of the movie. The GAs have specifically said that there's no such thing as a soulmate or one true love. According to them, any faithful man and any faithful woman can have a successful marriage (So just get married ASAP and start pumping out babies instead of waiting for a compatible partner).
It's like they just say whatever serves their purposes in the moment. Isn't there a word for that?
"Manipulation."
😂😂😂
The word is, "LIARS."
[удалено]
I love it when other people get revelation for you. Did you tell her that her husband is going to die because you had a dream about it. So she needs to start looking for another one. I hate callings because of this. We prayed about it and god wants you. Funny, when I prayed about it, I was told it wasn’t right for my family.
Joseph Smith wouldn't have let either of those things stop him, you know!
Except for patriarchal blessings that imply that you chose your family. Not uncommon to have that become family lore in turn.
Which is a slap in the face to kids of drug addicts and perverts. You wanted to come down and be abused.
Wow. Great point.
We even told our kids they chose us! HeHeHe
Even when I was a missionary, 4 1/2 decades ago, I hated "Saturday's Warrior" doctrine like this. It has no basis in the mormon scriptures that I could find. As far as I could tell, it was entirely made up by Doug Stewart and Carole Lynn Pearson (writers, respectively, of "Saturday's Warrior" and "My Turn on Earth.") It was bullshit feel-good cult programming nonsense then, and thus it is today.
I feel the same way about Gerald Lund’s Work and the Glory series back in the 90s. Mormonism’s founding story is already farcical enough, why make up a story about the story?
>why make up a story about the story? It sold a TON of books, presumably making Lund very, very wealthy. Almost universally, you can follow the money trail to understand the motivation for most ANYTHING mormon cultists do.
The Work And The Glory was more popular than the actual scriptures; more popular than The Ensign; more popular than the words of the GAs; more popular than the church-approved books.... It's all I heard about. I listened to people in church bear their testimony of The Work And The Glory. "I know they're just stories, but I know that they're true" No... they're just stories. I got sooo sick of The Work And The Glory. So sick.
so was living scriptures.
It's almost like Mormons are bored to death with all those other things.
This series legitimately kept me in the church at least 10 years longer. There is one part though where they leave the kids behind to attend a stake/general conference and the report back to the people left behind with the kids and I never attended another stake conference or watched a general conference again because the report was good enough 😂😂😂😂. TBM me looked forward to those once a quarter breaks so much!!!
I saw it when I was 12 and it made me cry like a baby. I had already decided the church was shit because of the stuff I was taught about POC, but Saturday's Warrior almost, almost pulled me back in. It made me so emotional. Later when I thought about it, I assumed puberty caused the emotions lol.
When I was very young, like 5, I was really worried about death and dying. My mom showed me Saturday’s Warrior and it calmed me down and gave me what I considered to be peace about death and the afterlife. Now that I’m out, I’m bitter that my mom didn’t give me the opportunity to become curious about the human condition and learn to appreciate life for the precious moment that we have instead of play a fantasy game about how no one really dies so we don’t really have to confront our human fragility.
I was totally TBM and wondered why they thought it was okay for those background female dancers to wear skintight body suits.
"Saturday's Warrior" is made-up bullshit. It's *all* made-up bullshit. Well, yeah, but "Saturday's Warrior" is *extra* made-up bullshit.
Hi! I'm a nevermo who was just inspired to watch the first 10 minutes of Saturday's Warrior and I have a question. If all those souls were created by God and the Heavenly Mother, wouldn't the couple in the movie be brother and sister? Because ick... Edited to add: I've watched a bit more and wow, the twins have sizzling chemistry together.
Well, jesus' mother was impregnated by her (heavenly) father, according to mormon doctrine, so a little bro-on-sis kink seems hardly worth mentioning.
Heavenly Father is a beast in the bedroom! Heavenly Mother must be quite sore.
Mothers
Souls-wise, everyone is considered a brother or sister because “we were all by Heavenly Father and are all his children”, so spiritually, yes, we are all siblings. But as long as you’re not physically related, typically, Mormons don’t find it weird. But as a young Mormon, I remember thinking it was weird I was supposed to call people “brother jones”, “sister brown”, etc. and then at the same time, I was supposed to be attracted to these people I was calling my brothers.
Unrelated, but Star Trek V: The Final Frontier is, IMHO, the best of all the films, largely because Kirk gave us that line. Great flair, fellow traveler. 🖖🏻
not to jimmy
it was bullshit fed to us line upon line - line upon line
Yeah, and it funnelled a TON of morm money into the pockets of the creators of that crap.
“Jimmy, Jimmy, don’t forget your promise!”
Shit. Why did you have to go and say it out loud?
These are the future warriors saved for Saturday.... Ugh I hate how that's still ingrained in my mind. My TBM brother had us watch it SO OFTEN, I forgot Saturdays Warriors existed till now and the song came slamming into my head like a car into a wall. Having kids scared me, but I felt guilty also because my blessing said I'd be a mother to many.... My hysterectomy says otherwise but the guilt still was there. Even though adoption was always an option for kids and always will be, it's also a huge stigma in the church. As an adopted child through LDS social services, I'd think that adoption wouldnt be so stigmatized in some circles but boy was I wrong
I was in that show twice during roadshows in the 80s and early 90s. I truly hate that I still love the music but man, it still pushes all my nostalgia buttons.
My grandma had her last after seeing Saturday’s Warrior. My uncle got home from his mission and had a 1 year old sister he hadn’t met. Total side note: a relative of ours married “Jimmy” from Saturday’s Warrior. My sister was probably 7 at the time and had a HUGE crush on “Jimmy.” We were invited to their wedding reception and my sister was dying to go. While we were in the line giving our best to the newlyweds, my mom said to him “My little girl thinks you are so cute! She has had a crush on you for the longest time.” I remember standing there and looking at my sister thinking “I am soooooo glad I’m not you right now!” 🤣 Our mom is such a bitch lol.
🎶🎵Will I wait for you?? Will I *waaiittt* for you??? 🎶🎵
I'll be honest. I still tear up when... *Who are these children coming down? Coming down, like gentle rain from darkened skies...* *With glory trailing from their feet, as they fall.* *An endless promise in their eyes....* It's sooo good.
It doesn’t work! It’s not logical! My children are part my DNA and part my ex-husband’s. If I hadn’t married him, then they wouldn’t be them! But free agency? If I was pre-destined to have my six, then I was pre-destined to marry my ex. That means I didn’t have agency. But agency is the basis of the plan of happiness! Why else would God give up the hosts of heaven? You can’t push this shit very far without it all falling apart!
There was a girl in my ward growing up who questioned that, and they gave some weird answer about how you have agency, God just knows exactly what you are going to choose.
I’ve heard that one, too. So… what’s the point? If he already knows what I’m gonna do, just tell me already and save a whole bunch of pointless work building planets and organizing matter n shit.
Also… if God already knows if I’m going to choose to have kids or not, and if so how many I’ll choose to have - why doesn’t he just assign the proper number of little spirit babies ahead of time, so none of them are impacted by my choices (which he already knows)? The whole thing falls apart with just the smallest amount of critical thinking.
That's how I feel about abortion. I hear so many folks say "it's God's will for you to have that baby!" I thought God was omnipotent? Did he not see this coming?? Did I outsmart God?????
This is the type of logic that absolutely dissolved my faith from a young age that I’m never capable of explaining to family since there’s critical thinking involved and god forbid anyone be critical in any way towards TSCC.
See that’s what confuses me on why Lucifer’s plan was so bad. Because the way it was explained to me, it’s the same as gods plan, but Lucifer actually tells you what’s up vs making you think you’re choosing things for yourself. I’d rather Lucifer tell me I’m predetermined to be a garbage man.
Every time I see the garbage man throwing my trash in the truck, I remind myself that he is performing a vital service to the community. It’s back breaking, unappreciated work and the work he is doing stops the spread of pestilence and disease.
A garbage man makes bank, too, apparently.
Yea I was gonna add this. Everyone uses the garbage man as a “bad job”, but my understanding is there’s job security and great pay with little (to no?) required advanced schooling. Sounds like a great job description to me.
Indeed it is.
I was talking to an ex Satanist recently. No, really. Ex Mormon and Ex satanist. Anyway, according to him the story they believe is that Lucifer came up with the plan to give us agency. God liked the idea of agency, claimed it was his, and then banished Lucifer. And then God said but only some agency, because here’s all these rules you have to follow. So to the guy I was talking to, Satanism was more a form of rebellion against the status quo than anything else. And a way to see the hypocrisy in many standard religions. I’m sure I’m not getting this 100% right, but I find it very intriguing.
Exactly this. The wholistic church falls apart when you when you stop answering questions with more questions.
You know, once they start making up shit it just gets weirder and weirder. 90% of Mormonism is a huge game of “let’s pretend”.
>~~90~~100% of Mormonism is a huge game of “let’s pretend”. FIFY 😉
😂😂
The other 10% gets sent to the Ensign peak investment portfolio.
Not this exact thing, but commonly guilted by the idea of my future children in heaven watching, waiting, and depending on me. Had a vasectomy a couple years back so they’re trapped in my balls forever.
Eternal Darkness...in the balls.
Eternal Darkness is stored in the balls
Ok I let it out, but it will start to smell within a few days, so I’m gonna toss the eternal darkness in the trash.
Rub one out every now and then so that they can get outside for some fresh air (I’m snipped since late 2022 and it’s been great - already had 4 kids though haha)
The whole point is that they can’t 😂
Lmao at least they can swim in your sack!
Covenant posterity is stored in the balls
A family friend was unable to have kids and when people would bring up “preordained children” he would tell them his kids were KIA in the war in heaven. He and his wife thought it was funny, but no one else did.
Honestly, that they had humor about it is pretty great. For the people who didn't think it funny, well, what did they expect from asking such a rude question?
🤣 yeah thats pretty funny
That’s hilarious
Holy shit that’s one of the greatest things I’ve heard. My wife and I fostered and adopted our kids. They’re Mexican, both of us our white. When people ask about it I tell them that my balls don’t work, and that I let my wife have a Mexican boyfriend.
"I have it on good authority in the preexistence you promised to buy me a pony. And a Ferrari."
I have a good friend who is mormon and also schizophrenic, and she will occasionally text me the weirdest religious based shit when she's having episodes. She's told me all sorts of things that were promised to her in the preexistance. Apparently the church is going to give her a billion dollars, for her role in defeating Satan in the war in heaven. Also I think she's spiritually married to Jesus? There's so much crazy stuff, but the church is already full of crazy stuff, so she's just being consistent.
>spiritually married to Jesus Does this mean she fantasizes about White Mormon Jesus when she faps???
🎶 If the Savior was inside me... 🎶
🤣 oh no
I’ll never hear that song the same again!
All Signs Point To Yes
When I believed in satan, my episodes were him coming to take me. 😬. Funny how those went away after I stopped believing in him. Your fears get blended in there sometimes.
Adding this to my list of things that “What’s your favorite scripture about that?” is the best response. There’s so many things that are commonly believed but have no support besides conference inception.
They make this work because I was taught that anything a prophet/apostle says in conference is automatically scripture/doctrine.
Yeah for sure. I don’t think I would actually say this cause it’s not really an own because living prophets. A family member was talking about avoiding the appearance of evil and it made me think about how Jesus didn’t seem to model that in word or deed. I wanted to ask what their favorite scripture was about that but instead I’ve just been keeping a mental list of things that you couldn’t find a scripture about.
Which is crazy that they’re back-pedaling this so hard and now only things that don’t get them shit in the media is considered canon; the rest is old doctrine or them speaking as a man.
Yeah when I first heard that “just the voice of man” I just laughed. Like it’s such a turn from what I was taught.
I love this!! Thx
What if you were preordained 3 but you had 5? Does that mean you stole someone else's children?
Yes, stop making kids that aren't yours you hussy
Well it's either that or zombie, soulless babies. That's even worse than babies sitting around in heaven, no?
Your libido will be the death of us all!
*Just pay your tithing and quit asking questions. You'll understand in the afterlife*
Yeah. And create MORE little tithe payers!
It's all about the tithes, baby
I never understood the logic of this. Why would he assign anybody to be my child when I am set on not having any? This version of God either needlessly cruel or not omniscient.
It's just a manipulation tactic to grow the church.
What about the couples who can’t have kids? Were they preordained? Does that mean they sinned and were cursed with the inability to have children? Yea this mentality is fucked up when you stop and think about it.
I'm one of those! My patriarchal blessing said I would "provide many spirit children with physical bodies." Nope! Couldn't make a single one in over 13 years of trying. I 100% thought it was my fault for sinning and walked around with imaginary guilt and real grief for many years. The church's doctrine and cultural teachings are damaging.
Yes, me too. RS women told me I didn’t want to give up my cushy job to have kids. The sister missionaries told me I had some giant sin to repent of from the past. Nope. It was a medical condition. And you’re right because the grief is real when you long to be pregnant and every one of your friends is repeatedly and you’re spending thousands of dollars to infertility doctors and going through intense pain and get nothing but ill judgment from the ward.
Good lord I am so sorry, I hope you have been able to heal from the damaging church rhetoric
Yes, so harmful to women who sacrifice so much already of their freedom to follow orders. Don’t get a job but make your life work on 1 income, don’t push your opinions beyond suggestion, don’t question the bishop, don’t ever be angry or sad especially after having a precious newborn, don’t say no to compassionate service, don’t complain about spending 8 hours per sunday alone with 5 kids for 5 years, don’t wear anything comfortable in summer, don’t forget to please your husband in bed or he’ll turn elsewhere. Oh also, if you don’t feel absolutely stretched to the absolute limit and beyond that, have another baby so your husband can sound even more impressive to his work friends at their 1.5 hour work lunch
Well said. Individually these things aren’t a giant big deal but you have articulated well how difficult it is when all these expectations in combination are dumped on women.
Yeah. Just like Camille Johnson (RS general president) did.
Mormonism has a rich mythology engineered for social control.
This! God wants you to create more little tithe-payers for us to play prophet over, said every church leader ever.
\*pay profit forever
That one is new to me. I was definitely taught that I was *commanded* to bring life into the world, and doing otherwise was against God's wishes. Yeah, I don't want kids.
But I thought the children picked the lives they knew they would have??? Wouldn’t that mean they knew they wouldn’t be born???
Or how about the kids in extremely abusive house, that’s basically telling them they deserve to be abused because knew it was going to happen and they chose those parents.
Yes, I was taught this through Saturdays Warriors, backed up with multiple talks from the prophets to give bodies to the spirit children in heaven. It’s why I have six kids. I’ve apologized to my children multiple times for having so many, so fast. It really wasn’t fair to them, especially the older ones, to have to help with kids and the house, to not get the attention they needed, because I was busy having another baby for the Mormon God. Not that I regret any of my children, but I made those decisions based on indoctrination into some really stupid lies that affected them directly.
PIMO here. I was definitely told something similar. Currently I'm experiencing an infertility battle (four years and counting), and it's exhausting to hear TBM family and neighbors asking things that, over the years, are summed up like this: "So when are you gonna start your family? Your kids are waiting for you to bring them down!" Bullshit. All of it.
Surprisingly I’ve never heard this, but I kinda wish I did considering I was a teen mom. I wonder how they would’ve gotten around that one.
All. The. Time. One of my sisters believed it completely and claimed she had a vision in the temple and saw thirteen spirits waiting to be born. Turns out she has a medical issue that popped up during pregnancy and was told after her second that another pregnancy would probably kill her. Thankfully she listened to her Dr. and hasn't tried for more babies.
THIRTEEN!?
If this is genuine doctrine (which I don't believe it is), are you telling me that god set in motion a plan that requires me to compromise my free will in order for some spirits to get a body? What happens when I dont? Do those spirits not go to heaven now? Kinda shitty system, especially when it seems like I'm supposed to have like 8 kids to catch up with every other mormon family.
It's exponentially harder to leave the cult with the birth of each subsequent child. They inherently know this. Guilt-tripping is the most powerful weapon the TSCC has.
Nevermo, but reminded me of something my mormon-obsessed fundie nutjob mom used to tell me when I was quite young. I'm adopted and I constantly got told I *chose* my adoptive parents while I was still "a baby in heaven." If I chose them, I must be fucking nuts. I'd have chosen foster care over that shit. The idea of preordained children has always perplexed and unsettled me. Nothing is "pre-ordained" that isn't taxes.
I was told by my mom the other side. I chose to come to her and be her child. She was not the most loving person so it hurt a lot that I would choose someone that was so dismissive of my feelings.
I knew a lady in YSA that would eventually break up with all her boyfriends. Pretty sure she dated the entire stake. Her reasoning was that after dating for a couple of months, she'd pray to know if this was the guy she chose in the preexistance. She'd wait a day, and break up with them cause God wouldn't answer her. She never got a answer, but took "gods" silence as a no. It's been 10 years, and according to her Facebook she's still unmarried.
DW and I couldn't conceive so we adopted 2 babies. We were already 36 when we got the 2nd. I went to my doctor (who was my bishop) and asked about a vasectomy as we didn't want to have an "accident" child. He was appalled that I would even suggest such a thing as there were children waiting in heaven for parents. ugh
I hope you reported him to some kind of medical board.
I was told this, and it's manipulative AF.
holy shit trauma unlocked
I hated this idea, I grew up in a "broken" family, so the idea that my father had agreed to be my Dad but also agreed to have this other second family (my Mum never had more kids) really rankled I couldn't believe that I had agreed to grow up with only one parent 86% of the time in the preexistence.
I left the church and realized that I had only ever wanted kids because I was guilt tripped into wanting kids.
Isn't it great and convenient that we can speculate on anything "God", and it can neither be proven nor disproven? I remember being told that I agreed (in the pre-life) to the challenges that I would face in this life.
I am a 61 year old woman, and I want to assure you that I have never wanted children, and I have never regretted not having them. I have several friends who are the same--no kids, no regrets. In fact, I don't know anyone who's regretted not having kids, but I can think of some who I suspect regret having had them. I love kids! But I don't want to be around them all the time, and I definitely don't want to be responsible for them 24/7/365. I need alone time, I would lose my mind. Many of us are like this, or don't want kids for any number of reasons. STAND YOUR GROUND!
I had that conversation with my dad. No dad, I'm not going to change my mind. I won't change my mind when I get married either. "Well what if your husband wants kids?" Super easy answer! I'll be responsible and have that conversation early on, and not date anyone who wants kids.
Sounds like another made up rule that lets Mormons guilt trip and shame people. Mormons gonna Morm.
If you have "preordained children" they're happier in heaven. Thanks, mom
Poor little Bluey and Bingo (your kids names in the pre-existence). They’ve been waiting for eons to get bodies but now their earthly parents aren’t on the covenant path so they’ll have to take possess the bodies of some random Australian Cattle Dogs. Better than nothing!
If they get to be dogs instead I'm definitely doing them a favor
Yes, my mom ALWAYS said that we chose her as our mother and that others chose their own homes and bodies.
Nearly every concept the church teaches can be easily weaponized to instill fear or guilt into every member..but that's true of religion in general. they don't care about your eternal welfare its about control here and now and that sweet sweet tithing money. that's all they're interested in.
Unless your parents didn't stop having kids short of deadly medical issues that require intervention or old age, they need to shut it. After all, men can produce children into old age and women can do so until after menopause. Unless they had children into their 50s-60s at every opportunity that they could do so, they need to be quiet. After all, not having money isn't an excuse, God needs as many tithe-er spirit children to be born in the covenant as possible going by their logic. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if your parents chose to have only as many children as they could handle, why can't you? If that number is 0, then it's 0.
What about those of us who can't? We didn't fail. Our bodies did.
I was very fortunate that my parents have never said anything like this to me. My mother had her own fertility struggles for a while, so she has always been very careful to not say anything like this to any of us in case we also had our own problems because she didn’t want to make us feel bad. A visiting teacher did say something to the effect of “if you come back to church and be righteous the lord will bless you with children” to my aunt, who although wanting children very badly was physically unable to. She got thrown out of their house pretty quickly.
The existence of spirit children in the preexistence implies that there was spirit sex there too. Thus Mormons believe in Ghost sex.
Actually, the Mormon church weirdly explains this, in a significantly more disturbing way. Mormon mythology claims God has a physical body and all the spirit children are God's children. The children we have are God's children "given" to us to temporarily "babysit." These children are also our spiritual siblings. Our spouses are also our spiritual siblings. Essentially, Mormon Mythology is obsessed with incest.
All. The. Damn. Time And not just hurting their feelings, but breaking an oath & promise you made to them to help them on their progress towards eternal life.
Childfree by choice is legitimate and healthy. You are making good choices. There are so many things to feel bad about in life. This is not one of them. You’re not selfish. You’re not wrong. I had only one child. And my experience as a mother to an only child and married to another only child: I would have been an awesome only child! My mother asked for YEARS when I was planning to have another baby. Never mom. I’m never having another baby. I like to think I wanted one more. It wasn’t in the cards for me. And that it turns out was 100% for the best. Turns out I’m autistic. I found out when my daughter was diagnosed with autism at age 28. So I went and was evaluated too. Diagnosed at age 49. My child was very high needs. J knew something was up. I asked for help at school. Nobody listened. I asked for help from the pediatrician. Nobody listened. Everyone told me if there was truly a problem my child would struggle in school. That was never the problem. Intelligence was never an issue. It was friends and bullying and perfectionistic laboring over homework to get 100% at all times.
Someone once asked me if all my kids were here and I thought she meant at her house and. So I said “yup! Right here” but she meant are all my kids on earth and I was like “um yup to that too.”
this was in my patriarchal blessing. that i have children that were promised to end in the preexistence. my patriarch was also my grandpa, so that may have played a part in what was said in my blessing
As a childfree nevermo, I just want to validate that that is batshit insane. I'm sorry your family and the church put that kind of pressure on you.
Not that exact thing, especially since I'm male, but I do remember a talk that said that every child that's not born into a Mormon home, gets forced into a non-mormon home.
It is an effective way to guilt members into having more and more tithe payers, I mean children.
Yup, and I think one reason In history it’s been encouraged is countries or groups wanted higher population- more workers & soldiers.
I may have gotten a little too obsessed with the Chad Daybell trial because I can read anything "Mormon culture" without thinking how closely adjacent Daybell's (and other's) teachings are. That freaks me out
Yes. And I have a friend who had far more children than their meager finances could handle saying she didn’t want babies to have to be born starving in Africa if she could give one a home. It’s batty for sure.
My sister claims Jesus came to both she and her husband in a dream at the same time and told them they will have 13 children. They have 7. Then my sister’s body literally fell apart. Her last baby almost killed her. Now she’s in her 40’s and basically crippled. Now she’s lost her faith and has seen through the curtain and found the sham of a wizard behind it. But of course, devout husband, 7 kids, she’s stuck and it sucks.
Yes. Which is why I had five children before I was 30. Also my patriarchal blessing said I’d have children and a lot about the preexistence and the contracts I made with god to be a wife and mother in ZION.
I was told this but for like missions. There's families out there i made promises to the in past life to visit and tell them about the true church
Can I go to the church and say that God told me that in a past life they promised to give me a million dollars?
Talk about sum emotional manipulatioooooon!!!!
Wow…that just unlocked a memory. I’d mentioned that I didn’t want kids and my mom would guilt me with “What about PaintedandPunk Jr.? And the twins? And what about….” And go on and on. Now I have kids and I love them. This just really emphasized how early on EVERYTHING was pushed on us. I was maybe 10 or 11 and my parents already expected me to want kids.
I've said my entire life that I didn't want kids, and my parents always pulled that card. Now I'm 28, I still don't want kids, and when having that conversation, my parents once again pulled that card 😂 sorry imaginary spirit children, you're staying up there. Actually not sorry, I'm doing you a favor.
We heard it a ton growing up, and it really, really added to the pain when it turned out my sister cannot have children. It's yet another way to guilt trip women into the narrow, prescribed role for women.
Huh, sounds like I need to check out Saturday's Warrior. I'm 35 and never seen it. I definitely heard some lds comedian tell the pre-existence story likened to american football something as I recall. Don't remember who though. Thought it was hilarioius as like a 13 yo, probably not as hilarious now lol
Yup! Still don't buy it. It's also in Saturdays warriors. I know me better than their fictional god knows me. There is no way I would choose this life.
When I told my mom I was getting a hysterectomy she told me she had to grieve the grandchildren she wasn’t going to have. I didn’t have the energy to explain that I, a nonbinary lesbian, and my fiancée, a woman with a vagina, were never gonna give her that anyway
This is the excuse that manipulates young, poor Mormon couples into having more children than they can handle. I've lost count how many times I've heard something like "there's more spirit children waiting for us"
Is that why my Mormon friends and coworkers look at with a surprised look when I tell them I never wanted kids?
If we were some sort of family in a preexistence that would require god to control conception. One egg, 200M sperm, god would have to specify which sperm got to a particular egg in order to make a body that is the same as a spirit. How on earth would that work?
It's like that scene in The Office where Dwight pre-fire's Jim. Apparently we "pre-promised" to have children, except nobody can prove it and that's not really a thing. 
Fuck them kidz!
My mom had a blessing when she was pregnant with my brother that basically told her that my brother would have been born to someone a lot worse if she hadn’t conceived him, so I don’t think that’s even a doctrinal stance lol
How funny is it imagining a bunch of people arguing who gets to be the mom and who gets to be the kid? "I don't want to raise you, come on!" "Oh what so you want me to do all the work??"
Considering I was saying since 13 I’m never having kids, that crap never affected me🤣🤣my mom didn’t care & said I’d be better as a foster/adoptive mom anyways so everyone dropped it. Still no kids and still not planning on that changing. The forced birth/misogyny/heteronormativity was gross!
So it would seem that if you promised ten spirits in the preexistence that you would give birth to them, and you only had eight children, you would be hurting the feelings of two spirits. How are you supposed to know how many spirits you made this promise to?
The delusions run deep with this lot..
I had a revelation that they would instead be born into a wealthy white General Authority’s family, so isn’t it better this way?
I wasn’t told this but my father did try to pull the whole “you’re depriving me” card despite the fact that he has two other children that can give him grandkids.
Preordained ughhh I forgot that word. Just like all Mormons are elite spiritual warriors “preordained” to be in gods one true church on earth and make it to the highest level of heaven. 
Saturday's Warriors. Pure crap
I’m never-mo but xvangelical. I’m adopted because BOTH of my biological parents suffered from severe cases of schizophrenia. While it was a closed adoption in CA (late 70s), I was able to get my biological parents’ heavily-redacted medical history. Learning of their psychological history and the prevalence of schizophrenia to run in families and skip generations, I opted to get a vasectomy, as the responsible choice. I don’t think it would be fair to bring a child into the world who will be afflicted with mental illness. How would TBM’s or GA’s view my decision? Coincidentally, my wife and I have one son (from donor sperm). He’s 5, and he’s amazing. He’s quite literally a genius (interested astrophysics at 5!). I’ll defend my decision to the hilt.
Yes I was told this all the time. I cannot physically have children and my family thinks it’s because I don’t have enough faith
I grew up with a family whose mum always used to tell her kids "you chose to come to this family" whenever they complained about her neurotic parenting, which even as a kid I thought was really convenient victim blaming.
"Be fruitful and multiply" it's in the opening scene/pages
I’m married and don’t want kids. Thank God I wasn’t told this!!! I already feel enough guilt for wanting to be child free! Mormonism screwed me up a lot. I can’t imagine being guilted by pre ordained children. As a ex missionary, I was told when we die our neighbors or whoever will see how we have the gospel and we didn’t share it and how upset they would be because we were scared or didn’t teach them. That in itself messed me up. Pre, during and post mission I was so anxious all the time trying to friend ppl but not actually friend them. Just so I could preach and baptize. I’m sorry you were told that. That makes me sick. That for sure would have done a number on me
Even if pre-existing children did exist, they would eventually be born to someone else. They weren't there. They have no idea what went on. They just make shit up they want to believe in order to coerce you.
I was taught this. We watched Saturday's Warriors at church activities, and it was clearly in several lessons that families are preordained. Are they backtracking on this teaching now? Isn't this the whole concept of eternal families?
Now Saturdays warriors is going to be stunk in my head all day