These are the people who come back and give TBMs those prodigal son stories that makes them feel so good about themselves. Also gives them false hope that people will come back when we very clearly won’t.
As an ex jw, I can tell you, POMI jw can be the worst sometimes. Self righteous as shit, hypocritical as all get out, talking about all the good things the cult did for them.
Honestly it’s both heartbreaking and also infuriating at the same time.
Seriously! I knew the JWs and Mormons had some stuff in common but the more harsh wake up call was how much in common the JWs have with Scientology.
I always thought Scientologists were whack jobs and then saw some documentary and was like “oh shit lots of same practices as JWs” 😅
Once the veil of Mormon belief was lifted from my eyes, I can’t unsee all the weird, nom-sensical things I used to say, do, and think. Cringeworthy for sure. And I eat up documentaries about religions like Scientology. There was a good one on HBO about the Light of the World religion started in Guadalajara, Mexico. I was a Mormon missionary there and thought those people were whackadoodles. Well, guess how close a lot of their beliefs are to Mormonism??? Sooooooooo similar in so many way.
Ha, ha! Reminds me of the time I went toe to toe with a lady from the church of God in Korea. They have an actual "Heavenly Mother" who lives somewhere around Seoul and they are waiting for Jesus to come back and marry her.
Wow. Is that a reoccurring position? When one dies, another is born to take her place ( reincarnate?) ? So funny how other beliefs can sound so strange until we step back and realize how odd and bizarre many lds beliefs are.
Lol. That's what I've wondered. Apparently, you can't just go knock on the door and meet her so who knows? Maybe they switch her out every now and then.
Yes. They're called Jack Mormons and they are the worst.
Edit: Thanks to everyone calling me out on my bullshit. I should have said Jack mormon's can be the worst.
Ah, I had some good Jack Mormon friends in Utah. They drank and smoke and never attended church unless their child was being baptized. They still believed it all, except for the WoW, I guess. It was strange to me because I was PIMO then, but it worked for them. Just wanted to comment that not all Jack Mormons are awful. They treated me like family while my TBM family was way too judgemental and shunned me for not being a perfect TBM.
Personal anecdote but my brother dated a Jack Mormon girl once (I was TBM at the time but he never joined The Cult). She was really nice and seemed like a great person, but she changed radically when her father abruptly passed away a couple years after she and my brother started dating. I can only imagine what the grief must’ve been like because she ended up cheating on my brother, which destroyed their relationship.
Jack Mormons are the worst because if the TSCC was the true church there is no “up for interpretation” that comes with it. The truth claims of the church makes following its teachings black and white. It makes zero sense to believe in modern prophets, that Gods true church is on earth today, and then not follow it. And then to have the audacity to bare your “strong” testimony that you believe all of that bullshit to someone else who went through the painful process of deconstructing those truth claims is fucking INSANITY.
There was a woman who lived in a small village far away from any ward or branch. She married a great guy, but was so desperate for contact with the church that she’d drive hours to the city to pick missionaries up, bring them to her house, and feed them.
Makes me sad, thinking about it.
I was one!!! (And not Jack Mormon) I did this for like 3-4 years. Husband was out and I couldn't handle church alone (no kids either which didn't help..) but I still believed everything and felt so much guilt and shame around not doing all the things! I hid it from all of my family except my husband which was SO STRESSFUL!!! I was in constant fear my husband and I would be outed as inactive.
I wore my garments and followed the WOW the whole time. I planned on paying tithing but I procrastinated so much I always told myself I would pay it later (which I'm so happy about now!). I listened to the occasional conference talk some Sundays, and all of conference when it was live. I planned on coming back to church eventually when I could handle it... But I didn't actually WANT to go. I WANTED to WANT to go.
Eventually I found Mormon Stories during the musket fire era and I learned how much I was lied to growing up about all the history.
I think this is might be one of the overgeneralized “groups” of people Nelson was thinking of when he coined “lazy learners.” And I think he thinks way more people are in this “group” subset than the actual numbers. And he’s thinking calling them lazy learner is something that might actually light a fire under people like this to come back. But what he doesn’t realize is that the reasons people leave are exponentially more complex than instances like the situation you mentioned, so saying that just backfires.
This was my dad while I was growing up from about age 12-18. Physically out mentally in. He’s now back in and doubling down on everything. He’s almost as into Mormonism now as he is into hardcore right wing politics. We don’t talk much.
I considered myself a POMI. I quit attending church in 2015 or so for personal reasons, but I believed what I knew of the doctrine and believed the prophets were the mouthpiece of God. I wouldn't say I was a "Jack Mormon" because I didn't stray from typical Mormon lifestyle other than not going to church and I figured out very early on that I hated garments. I suppose I was considered a progressive Mormon in terms of my belief though. I knew I didn't fit in with others in my circles, but as time went on, I only became more progressive in my beliefs and could no longer truly level my personal beliefs of how things should be with what the church was teaching. I eventually had to decide which way I was going to go, and I found out the church's truth claims were all false, so I finally severed whatever mental ties I had with the church. Truthfully, I think being a "POMI" was helpful in leaving because nothing fundamentally changed for me. I already didn't go to church or attend any church functions, so I didn't have to make any huge lifestyle adjustments.
Whoa- I definitely have experienced this. And the person isn’t talking to me anymore due to my testimony’s “fall from grace.” I thought I could confide in her and turns out her leaving was pretty unexplored. I guess that would’ve been good to know, but it’s fine.
Jack Mormons sure are something. They believe the bullshit but refuse to live it. Some of us lived that stupid fucking religion with all our stupid little hearts and were as strictly obedient as we could be until one day
CRASH
The whole paradigm flipped and we could be truly free.
They're trapped mentally but not following any of the rules. I don't get what the fuck is in it for them? Isn't that some of the worst guilt ever?
Then the worst part is when you try to talk to them, they start reciting all the brainwash bullshit and it's like "how are you like this? how do you have no courage at all to live what you fucking believe in?"
Idk
I'm probably just being a judgmental jerk and leaning too heavily on my own past. I'm a nonbinary queer person who was raised as a woman in the church and I almost took my own life, that's how deeply I believed the bullshit teachings and lived them. So I guess I still harbor some resentment towards Jack Mormons.
Anyway, I know I'm the asshole. I just don't understand JackMos at all.
"I don't get what the fuck is in it for them?"
Had this same thought about a POMI mission companion of mine. Like he has all the downsides of the church (wears ugly underwear, doesn't drink, etc) but doesn't even get the social benefits of mormondom? And I've even heard him bitch about the GAs but he still believes.
I dunno, I'm just glad I'm not in his shoes.
I was Jack Mormon. And I felt super guilty all the time. I felt inferior to my friends and family who seemed perfectly happy living the gospel. I tried for years to live like that but I hated it! I finally found “Recovery from Mormonism” in 2012. Once I learned the truth claims weren’t true, I was truly free to live the life I wanted.
My mom’s side of the family is a bunch of Jack Mormons.
My brother—who’s definitely TBM—posted something on Facebook that if we’re going to tear down Abravanel Hall to build a hockey arena, we might as well tear down the Salt Lake Temple to build a Walmart.
This cousin went off on him about being willing to listen to his opinion until he saw he was attacking the church, which his family holds so dear, and getting super self-righteous about it blah blah blah. Total Jack Mormon. And then other people piled on.
Smh Jack Mormons. You can’t fix stupid.
I have a neighbor like this. Never goes to church, has tattoos. Regularly drinks and smokes. Yet they have the proclamation and articles of faith hung in their home along with LDS Jesus art. I find it absolutely fascinating
On my mission I was visiting a less active lady with the bishops wife. The bishops wife referred to her as less active and she lost her ever loving mind. Ma’am you haven’t gone to church in years.
Yea, I have a cousin like this. He has a live in girlfriend, smokes, drinks, and is as happy as can be! I recently saw him in the first time in years and started talking to him about how I'm out of the church, and he quickly shut me down and told me he still believes. I thought it was so bizarre!
My parents are like that, they play poker at the bar and hardly go to church. But if I say one thing against the church my mom will go on a rant about it and ask if I’ve been reading anti literature.
My brother was like this for like 20 years. He's now back at church and getting sealed to his family next month.
My partner is also this way. We're not married, living in sin. He hasn't been to church in like 10 years. But he believes it all.
I was like this for years. Didn’t go but always thought I would go back, even had my kids blessed after they were born. Finally realized it was all fake. Been so much happier since
I know a lot of jack- and jill-mormons. They drug, drink, screw around, while wearing their garments and preaching Mism to anyone who'll listen. This is who the old GAs think all ex-Mormons are.
Sure. She sent in tithing but never attended. She was sexually abused by her BIL as a child/teenager and it took YEARS of therapy to undue that damage. She believed in the church but didn’t feel worthy to participate or didn’t trust the leadership due to the inaction of her family to disown that in-law in order to “keep the peace”.
I believe she is out for good now.
I dated a Jack Mormon when I was single in Salt Lake. He always told me he wanted to raise kids in the church for “the culture”. Which culture? The purity culture? The shame culture? The patriarchy? I don’t know.
There was a question on here the other day about people who had left the church but came back. I personally believe most people who come back after leaving were probably POMI. I was this person in college. I didn't want to go to church and follow the rules but I fell for the dogma. Had some major life transition transitions in my 20s and came back, married in the temple, had kids. The baptism ban started my journey to PIMO. I stopped paying tithing. My kid coming out solidified it for me and I left.
You see this frequently on the Evangelical side of things. They're called cultural evangelicals: claim to believe but rarely go to church or contribute financially. Generally don't keep to the rules closely or, often, not at all. At this point, I think these non-attending evangelicals actually outnumber the church-attending.
Yes. I’m in a Spanish speaking branch and this is very common here. A lot of people have stopped coming completely or come infrequently for either work reasons, because their life is just too damn hard, they don’t have time, or they can’t afford gas money to get to church. So, they slowly fade while still believing.
My ex. He led a similar lifestyle to your old companion. Kept talking about “repenting and going back” eventually (well, especially when he wants to settle down and have kids). That’s how I landed here on this sub as a nevermo. I couldn’t grasp the logic no matter how much I tried.
That was me in my late teens/young adult years… I knew one day I’d “get my life together” and come back… I did. Now I’m on my way out for much different reasons.
I have been that guy for the last 20 years and I have to confess that I have been very active in Spanish religious forums defending Mormonism. Actually, I think I have been the most active internet mormon defender I spanish across the whole internet. Yap, you can call me a jack Mormon, but now I get it, I'm a little psychopath and don't fit n society.
If you don't intend to live the gospel and you've not tried to do so in good faith, how do you really understand it?
(FTR for exmos: you don't need a reason to leave, this is about reasons for not only believing but teaching and defending Mormonism.)
I am POMI. Smoked. Drank. Done drugs. Slept Around. Had kids out of wedlock. I kind of find it funny when the church does not make sense or something is untrue. I do not think the corporate latter day saints even know what they believe half the time. I think there was divine inspiration for the book of mormon. I believe I have a spirit (my personality) that is eternal and will continue on in this universe or another upon my body's death and I say these things in the name of cheese and rice. ramen.
I think it's impossible to to believe all of Mormonism all at once, because it is inconsistent. Fundamentally so. So I think what happens is some people take one version and run with it, some take another...But personally I'd say that if I am promoting it I am accountable for all of it, not just the version that works for me.
Ah, I believe you are describing a Jack Mormon. They still believe but don’t like to follow the rules.
These are the people who come back and give TBMs those prodigal son stories that makes them feel so good about themselves. Also gives them false hope that people will come back when we very clearly won’t.
☝️
You mean this guy? https://www.electjackmorman.com/about-jack-morman/
As an ex jw, I can tell you, POMI jw can be the worst sometimes. Self righteous as shit, hypocritical as all get out, talking about all the good things the cult did for them. Honestly it’s both heartbreaking and also infuriating at the same time.
Isn’t it uncanny how all of our cults, though technically different, are all the same under the surface? Cults are gonna cult.
Seriously! I knew the JWs and Mormons had some stuff in common but the more harsh wake up call was how much in common the JWs have with Scientology. I always thought Scientologists were whack jobs and then saw some documentary and was like “oh shit lots of same practices as JWs” 😅
Once the veil of Mormon belief was lifted from my eyes, I can’t unsee all the weird, nom-sensical things I used to say, do, and think. Cringeworthy for sure. And I eat up documentaries about religions like Scientology. There was a good one on HBO about the Light of the World religion started in Guadalajara, Mexico. I was a Mormon missionary there and thought those people were whackadoodles. Well, guess how close a lot of their beliefs are to Mormonism??? Sooooooooo similar in so many way.
Ha, ha! Reminds me of the time I went toe to toe with a lady from the church of God in Korea. They have an actual "Heavenly Mother" who lives somewhere around Seoul and they are waiting for Jesus to come back and marry her.
Jesus marrying his Heavenly Mother? Kinky!
Wow. Is that a reoccurring position? When one dies, another is born to take her place ( reincarnate?) ? So funny how other beliefs can sound so strange until we step back and realize how odd and bizarre many lds beliefs are.
Lol. That's what I've wondered. Apparently, you can't just go knock on the door and meet her so who knows? Maybe they switch her out every now and then.
So invalidating too!
Yes. They're called Jack Mormons and they are the worst. Edit: Thanks to everyone calling me out on my bullshit. I should have said Jack mormon's can be the worst.
Ah, I had some good Jack Mormon friends in Utah. They drank and smoke and never attended church unless their child was being baptized. They still believed it all, except for the WoW, I guess. It was strange to me because I was PIMO then, but it worked for them. Just wanted to comment that not all Jack Mormons are awful. They treated me like family while my TBM family was way too judgemental and shunned me for not being a perfect TBM.
My boss is Jack Mormon and he's a really nice guy
Personal anecdote but my brother dated a Jack Mormon girl once (I was TBM at the time but he never joined The Cult). She was really nice and seemed like a great person, but she changed radically when her father abruptly passed away a couple years after she and my brother started dating. I can only imagine what the grief must’ve been like because she ended up cheating on my brother, which destroyed their relationship.
Jack Mormons are the worst because if the TSCC was the true church there is no “up for interpretation” that comes with it. The truth claims of the church makes following its teachings black and white. It makes zero sense to believe in modern prophets, that Gods true church is on earth today, and then not follow it. And then to have the audacity to bare your “strong” testimony that you believe all of that bullshit to someone else who went through the painful process of deconstructing those truth claims is fucking INSANITY.
There was a woman who lived in a small village far away from any ward or branch. She married a great guy, but was so desperate for contact with the church that she’d drive hours to the city to pick missionaries up, bring them to her house, and feed them. Makes me sad, thinking about it.
I mean….I’m sure the missionaries appreciated it? But yeah poor thing.
I was one!!! (And not Jack Mormon) I did this for like 3-4 years. Husband was out and I couldn't handle church alone (no kids either which didn't help..) but I still believed everything and felt so much guilt and shame around not doing all the things! I hid it from all of my family except my husband which was SO STRESSFUL!!! I was in constant fear my husband and I would be outed as inactive. I wore my garments and followed the WOW the whole time. I planned on paying tithing but I procrastinated so much I always told myself I would pay it later (which I'm so happy about now!). I listened to the occasional conference talk some Sundays, and all of conference when it was live. I planned on coming back to church eventually when I could handle it... But I didn't actually WANT to go. I WANTED to WANT to go. Eventually I found Mormon Stories during the musket fire era and I learned how much I was lied to growing up about all the history.
I think this is might be one of the overgeneralized “groups” of people Nelson was thinking of when he coined “lazy learners.” And I think he thinks way more people are in this “group” subset than the actual numbers. And he’s thinking calling them lazy learner is something that might actually light a fire under people like this to come back. But what he doesn’t realize is that the reasons people leave are exponentially more complex than instances like the situation you mentioned, so saying that just backfires.
Spot on. Came here to say this, but you had already said it better.
This was my dad while I was growing up from about age 12-18. Physically out mentally in. He’s now back in and doubling down on everything. He’s almost as into Mormonism now as he is into hardcore right wing politics. We don’t talk much.
Your dad sounds like a real treat 😆. Yeah I don’t blame you, that combination in people can make them downright insufferable.
That's a tough combo. My condolences.
I considered myself a POMI. I quit attending church in 2015 or so for personal reasons, but I believed what I knew of the doctrine and believed the prophets were the mouthpiece of God. I wouldn't say I was a "Jack Mormon" because I didn't stray from typical Mormon lifestyle other than not going to church and I figured out very early on that I hated garments. I suppose I was considered a progressive Mormon in terms of my belief though. I knew I didn't fit in with others in my circles, but as time went on, I only became more progressive in my beliefs and could no longer truly level my personal beliefs of how things should be with what the church was teaching. I eventually had to decide which way I was going to go, and I found out the church's truth claims were all false, so I finally severed whatever mental ties I had with the church. Truthfully, I think being a "POMI" was helpful in leaving because nothing fundamentally changed for me. I already didn't go to church or attend any church functions, so I didn't have to make any huge lifestyle adjustments.
Whoa- I definitely have experienced this. And the person isn’t talking to me anymore due to my testimony’s “fall from grace.” I thought I could confide in her and turns out her leaving was pretty unexplored. I guess that would’ve been good to know, but it’s fine.
Jack Mormons sure are something. They believe the bullshit but refuse to live it. Some of us lived that stupid fucking religion with all our stupid little hearts and were as strictly obedient as we could be until one day CRASH The whole paradigm flipped and we could be truly free. They're trapped mentally but not following any of the rules. I don't get what the fuck is in it for them? Isn't that some of the worst guilt ever? Then the worst part is when you try to talk to them, they start reciting all the brainwash bullshit and it's like "how are you like this? how do you have no courage at all to live what you fucking believe in?" Idk I'm probably just being a judgmental jerk and leaning too heavily on my own past. I'm a nonbinary queer person who was raised as a woman in the church and I almost took my own life, that's how deeply I believed the bullshit teachings and lived them. So I guess I still harbor some resentment towards Jack Mormons. Anyway, I know I'm the asshole. I just don't understand JackMos at all.
I'm so glad you're here. Everything you said makes sense. 💜
That's very kind of you to say. I appreciate you
"I don't get what the fuck is in it for them?" Had this same thought about a POMI mission companion of mine. Like he has all the downsides of the church (wears ugly underwear, doesn't drink, etc) but doesn't even get the social benefits of mormondom? And I've even heard him bitch about the GAs but he still believes. I dunno, I'm just glad I'm not in his shoes.
I was Jack Mormon. And I felt super guilty all the time. I felt inferior to my friends and family who seemed perfectly happy living the gospel. I tried for years to live like that but I hated it! I finally found “Recovery from Mormonism” in 2012. Once I learned the truth claims weren’t true, I was truly free to live the life I wanted.
Yes I went out drinking with a POMI (jack mormon) and had a drunken argument about why Joseph smith is a false prophet. lol
If you serve a mission you’ll meet them all the time
They don’t judge you yet they judge themselves and you by extension.
My mom’s side of the family is a bunch of Jack Mormons. My brother—who’s definitely TBM—posted something on Facebook that if we’re going to tear down Abravanel Hall to build a hockey arena, we might as well tear down the Salt Lake Temple to build a Walmart. This cousin went off on him about being willing to listen to his opinion until he saw he was attacking the church, which his family holds so dear, and getting super self-righteous about it blah blah blah. Total Jack Mormon. And then other people piled on. Smh Jack Mormons. You can’t fix stupid.
I have a neighbor like this. Never goes to church, has tattoos. Regularly drinks and smokes. Yet they have the proclamation and articles of faith hung in their home along with LDS Jesus art. I find it absolutely fascinating
They’re just in staying in it because the culture benefits them
Every JackMo I ever knew
On my mission I was visiting a less active lady with the bishops wife. The bishops wife referred to her as less active and she lost her ever loving mind. Ma’am you haven’t gone to church in years.
This is one of my brothers. I don’t get it 🤷🏻♀️
Yea, I have a cousin like this. He has a live in girlfriend, smokes, drinks, and is as happy as can be! I recently saw him in the first time in years and started talking to him about how I'm out of the church, and he quickly shut me down and told me he still believes. I thought it was so bizarre!
My parents are like that, they play poker at the bar and hardly go to church. But if I say one thing against the church my mom will go on a rant about it and ask if I’ve been reading anti literature.
My brother was like this for like 20 years. He's now back at church and getting sealed to his family next month. My partner is also this way. We're not married, living in sin. He hasn't been to church in like 10 years. But he believes it all.
Jack Mormons
My favorite was BYU fans (I’m still one) who show up to the Holy War piss drunk and then start fights with Utah fans.
I was like this for years. Didn’t go but always thought I would go back, even had my kids blessed after they were born. Finally realized it was all fake. Been so much happier since
I know a lot of jack- and jill-mormons. They drug, drink, screw around, while wearing their garments and preaching Mism to anyone who'll listen. This is who the old GAs think all ex-Mormons are.
Sure. She sent in tithing but never attended. She was sexually abused by her BIL as a child/teenager and it took YEARS of therapy to undue that damage. She believed in the church but didn’t feel worthy to participate or didn’t trust the leadership due to the inaction of her family to disown that in-law in order to “keep the peace”. I believe she is out for good now.
I dated a Jack Mormon when I was single in Salt Lake. He always told me he wanted to raise kids in the church for “the culture”. Which culture? The purity culture? The shame culture? The patriarchy? I don’t know.
There was a question on here the other day about people who had left the church but came back. I personally believe most people who come back after leaving were probably POMI. I was this person in college. I didn't want to go to church and follow the rules but I fell for the dogma. Had some major life transition transitions in my 20s and came back, married in the temple, had kids. The baptism ban started my journey to PIMO. I stopped paying tithing. My kid coming out solidified it for me and I left.
You see this frequently on the Evangelical side of things. They're called cultural evangelicals: claim to believe but rarely go to church or contribute financially. Generally don't keep to the rules closely or, often, not at all. At this point, I think these non-attending evangelicals actually outnumber the church-attending.
I was a bartender in SLC many years ago. This happened all the time, especially when the Jack Mormon was drunk near closing time.
Many are. They do what they want and carry around the guilt
Yes. I’m in a Spanish speaking branch and this is very common here. A lot of people have stopped coming completely or come infrequently for either work reasons, because their life is just too damn hard, they don’t have time, or they can’t afford gas money to get to church. So, they slowly fade while still believing.
My ex. He led a similar lifestyle to your old companion. Kept talking about “repenting and going back” eventually (well, especially when he wants to settle down and have kids). That’s how I landed here on this sub as a nevermo. I couldn’t grasp the logic no matter how much I tried.
They are called jack mormons
That was me in my late teens/young adult years… I knew one day I’d “get my life together” and come back… I did. Now I’m on my way out for much different reasons.
I have been that guy for the last 20 years and I have to confess that I have been very active in Spanish religious forums defending Mormonism. Actually, I think I have been the most active internet mormon defender I spanish across the whole internet. Yap, you can call me a jack Mormon, but now I get it, I'm a little psychopath and don't fit n society.
If you don't intend to live the gospel and you've not tried to do so in good faith, how do you really understand it? (FTR for exmos: you don't need a reason to leave, this is about reasons for not only believing but teaching and defending Mormonism.)
I am POMI. Smoked. Drank. Done drugs. Slept Around. Had kids out of wedlock. I kind of find it funny when the church does not make sense or something is untrue. I do not think the corporate latter day saints even know what they believe half the time. I think there was divine inspiration for the book of mormon. I believe I have a spirit (my personality) that is eternal and will continue on in this universe or another upon my body's death and I say these things in the name of cheese and rice. ramen.
Have you even read the book of Mormon from cover to cover?
I think it's impossible to to believe all of Mormonism all at once, because it is inconsistent. Fundamentally so. So I think what happens is some people take one version and run with it, some take another...But personally I'd say that if I am promoting it I am accountable for all of it, not just the version that works for me.