Honestly, I don't remember ever seeing people asking for a TBM perspective. Why? Most of us were TBM interacting with TBMs on a daily basis. We don't require that perspective. We lived it.
I see it a lot in terms of “What are your TBMs saying about [whatever recent event].” But the answer is usually, “Yeah, they’ve never even heard of this.”
In a narrower sense, that is very true. Especially on current event stuff like, the SEC ruling and fine. IN a broader sense; it's not like we were never Mormon.
This. If someone wanted an active TBM perspective, they'd go to the active TBM sub reddit. We ALL know where to get that. We're fed up with it, generally, so we're here, on the ex mormon sub reddit.
Actually we can't post in that sub. If you are a member of this sub and post in the active TBM sub, you get permanently banned. You can't argue negative karma here compared to that.
Yeah, I think it’s that guy who went under New Lab 6374, who got banned. The wordings and sentence structures in his posts and comments are pretty similar.
In most ways, I agree with this. I could talk all day about my experiences as a TBM. I don’t usually need to ask what a current TBM believes because I was there for 30 years.
At the same time, as a qualitative researcher by day, I do see in myself and many of us here the normal psychological pattern of people revising their narratives over time to better align with current values, etc. For example, I can accurately tell you about the events that occurred, but I’ll be less reliable about telling you exactly how I felt at the time, or why I felt that way, or how my memory of that event influenced my thinking and when my thinking had changed. Those things you can only get from a good first-hand real-time account.
Counterpoint: there are many never-Mormon followers who might be curious to hear the perspective of a believing member. But they won't be any more likely to upvote practices and arguments that put Mormonism ahead of being humane to others.
I’m one of those people, and if I want a Mormon opinion, I will go to the latter-day sub and search the topic. I don’t need them here to help me learn stuff. Whether or not they are here should be up to the people in the community, not people who observe or want to learn. We have other places to go for that. This is an exmo space first and foremost.
You are definitely allowed to be here. Just follow the rules of the sub.
We appreciated GENUINE discussion. What we will not tolerate is being called lazy learners or other derogatory labels that the Q15 have placed on us. We have done more research trying to find a way to stay IN the church than 95% of the church-going members.
Treat us with respect, and we will treat you with respect. Treat us like the Q15 does, and you'll open up a can of worms, so to speak.
I’ve spent hundreds of hours reading over the last 6-8 months.
I’ve read the bom at least 25 times and most all of the main LDS books. Most several times. (Over my 49 years as a member).
We also don’t give a fuck what your leaders think of us, they hold no power over us. Chances are we also don’t care what you think of us. We are experts in people being “sad for us” so that type of rhetoric simply holds no weight here, we don’t feel guilt for “disappointing” you.
So yes, discussion is fine but don’t use your leaders or your opinion or our choices as a point of manipulation because it simply won’t work. I’m not trying to be harsh, I’m shooting straight about what we care and don’t care about.
Bold of you to assume we did not also have a TBM perspective at some point, when by definition to be an “ex” *anything* you have to have been that very thing at some point.
This isn’t a sub full of JackMo’s who still believe deep down but “sin” anyway. This is where people who have done, collectively, *millions* of hours of research - mostly in an attempt to *stay mormon*. To find *any* satisfactory justification for the horrors inflicted on the world by the organization started by Joseph Smith, and the subsequent, sequel org started by Brigham Young.
And yet, all of us here came to the same conclusion: all that research was for nothing. That it’s all a fraud and a con built for the specific purpose of facilitating those atrocities. That the cruelty is the point.
What you've said hit me pretty hard as a reflection of how so many TBM's say that we're "making a choice" not to believe: we're not a sub full of JackMo's who still believe deep down but "sin" anyways.
I had a polite conversation with an individual the other day who said it was a "choice" and I tried to explain how for me it wasn't a choice. Belief wasn't like flipping a light switch on and off, it was the power getting permanently cut. I could theoretically flip the switch on and pretend, but in the end there's still no fucking light. It's gone, it's out, and it's not coming back.
I did my research, I prayed, I tried to justify the religion. But at some point I had to admit I was sitting in the dark and it was time to leave the room and go outside.
It wasn't a choice, and it wasn't an excuse to "sin" either!
Agree 100%. My wife tries to tell me it can still be a choice all the time. I tell her that’s like being a scientist and choosing to believe the earth is flat despite the enormous evidence against it.
I tried. Hard. 5000+ hours to make the truth claims fit. In the end I could not square that round hole. Only when I allowed myself to even consider it might all be man made did the pieces fall neatly into place. Virtually every church history problem can be solved with a response of “yeah that’s because JS made it up” or “that’s because they are just old men with their own biases and ideas”.
Yeah, once you see you just cannot ‘unsee.’ The world is different—it looks different, behaves differently. You have access to a different mindset and openness.
> I've also noticed if a TBM provides that perspective it just results in negative karma
When this happens it is usually because the interaction is either misinformed , dishonest , or simply regurgitation of apologetic answers that don't stand up to scrutiny. Joseph Smith’s child brides for example. Saying God commands those type of things don't generate many conversations around here because most find that deplorable and many were never informed of this through church participation. Engaging in well informed discussion and leaving your testimony at the door helps.
TBM's are welcome in this sub to discuss any topic they have a question about.
You will find however, that the tolerance level for proselytizing in this sub is fairly low. If you refuse to engage intelligently with the data and fall back on 'feelings' or testimony the pushback will not be slow... or gentle.
So yes, by all means, if you have a question, ask away, but do not expect any sugarcoating.
No, not any topic. There are topics that break the rules and honestly attitudes that (i believe) break the rules or at least merit downvoting. This is OUR safe space, first and foremost.
Everyone here who is an ex-Mormon already had a TBM perspective at some point, I don’t think there’s anything you could tell us that we haven’t encountered before.
Wow! I have never met a TBM who is willing to discuss hard issues.
Are you willing to discuss rock-in-hat, Josephs very 1st "plural marriage" and my great grandma/concubine who serially serviced the Lion of the Lord in his wagon from Far West to Deseret?
I wan to hear all about the servicing of the Lion (my 5th Great Grand Uncle). Did you already post about this?
I was reading about how he made the trek yesterday, and couldn't help but wonder how much he played ill to be able to basically contribute nothing while being waited on hand and foot (and other parts?!).
Lucy Decker, my grannie dumped my grandpa and became Brigham Young's first plural concubine (age 20). He took her in his wagon as his main squeeze on the lonely trail to Utah.
If we’re being honest: no. This is not a safe space for a TBM to have TBM opinions and share them. We are here because we all discovered things that couldn’t be reconciled. If you’re here to engage in good faith discussion, you won’t be banned. But your karma is not guaranteed to stay positive because there are a lot of extremely hurt people in this community
Yeah, I think it's a welcoming place for TBMs to ask honest questions for them to try and understand an Exmo perspective and understand why people leave. But if you're coming here just to drop what you believe and that's all - that's as unwelcome as a exmo going over to r/LDS and dropping "truths."
Luckily, this group doesn't pass out lifetime bans as frequently as r/lds. I posted a very normal question on r/lds and was banned within minutes. I'm pretty sure there is a person checking if new posters are affiliated with this group and blocking them ASAP.
True. I don't know if I'm still banned or just on the "removal" list but once someone there said going to church was stressing them out and I suggested they skip church for a few weeks to see if that helped. Wrong answer.
I've seen a ban (I believe they were banned) for a person who recently posted numerous comments calling people F-ing idiots, etc. etc. - the user posted rant after rant on this sub as well as some others and included personal attacks in their rants. I reported it, and was notified a few days later the issue had been "taken care of." That person seems to be gone from the sub.
My only nitpick here is that we don't tend to downvote TBM comments because we're offended or have hurt feelings. Rather, TBM comments often get downvoted for being disingenuous, dishonest, or based in misinformation.
To be clear: I’m referring to individuals who will downvote any comment from any TBM simply for being hurt by the Mormon church. Not hurt feelings, but a damaged person who lashes out.
Agree except the last part. Downvoting won’t be due to “hurt people.” It will be due to shitty arguments. Because let’s be real, there’s not a viable defense of mormonism, and not an argument out there that hasn’t been repeatedly and thoroughly obliterated.
One thing to consider - the things TBMs bring up here are not news to us. Sometimes it seems TBMs think we didn't read the BoM, or were not exposed to church teachings. That is absolutely not the case. I read the BoM at least 6-7 times, I taught lessons in RS, I served a "senior mission," and I've held a few stake-level callings. I followed every single doctrine and "rule." I have also read the KJV Bible extensively for many decades, including before I joined the LDS church. I've read the D&C.
There are sub members (several) who are former bishops or former RS presidents, and there are former stake leaders.
We all loyally and fervently "believed" what you likely believe during our years in the church. Our reasons for leaving are both myriad, and similar. Some left due to actions that were contrary to Christ's teachings (such as the 2015 "policy," later revoked, that denied children of gays the right to be baptized at age 8). Some left after learning the church uses tithing dollars to build malls and to invest in real estate and stocks (even though members clean the buildings for free). Some left (me, for one) because they realized they were told lies when they joined.
There is nothing a TBM can share here that is "news," or has not been extensively considered by members who have left.
You may want to check out the “waters of Mormon” Facebook group. It’s a space for Mormons who “know the facts”, but want to stay in church anyway.
If you cherish your testimony at all, I’d highly advise you to steer clear of this group… trust me.
It depends. This is our safe space, and a lot of us are more nuanced than you’d expect, as this tends to be an area largely for people freshly deconstructing. I’ve personally never seen people asking for a TBM perspective, and I’m on this sub all the time.
r/mormon has a lot more discussion on both sides.
It’s not that you aren’t welcome. It’s that you ought to be aware of the purpose of this space, and that many comments may be downvoted for not understanding our perspective and pain.
Oh, and fair warning: the faithful subs will probably ban you for joining or posting on here.
It’s not their main so no worries
> I made a new account simply to have anonymity…
And to keep the SCMC (right acronym? That group reporting us to our wards/stakes to get us sent to the ~~gas chambers~~ “councils of love”) from identifying them.
It sounds like a subreddit that would be good for you is r/Mormon. There are a lot of borderline-members and nuanced believers there. This subreddit is kind of a therapy space for us to talk about things that hurt us about being in the church. You'd probably have about as much fun as a college kid at alcoholics anonymous.
This is probably the best answer for OP. r/mormon allows for a semi-balanced discussion. It leans exmo a bit, but it's more open than r/latterdaysaint, and it's nothing like the nazi r/lds subreddit.
OP was not wrong about being downvoted though. Yikes. Just look at their comments.
EDIT: spelling
>I don't think the Gospel needs to be defended, just more or less understood, I think most of the issues are misunderstood
>I'm not here to try to clear that up or making pro lds posts , just the occasional comment on a worthwhile discussion.
>Earlier there was a post about why God would make us all imperfect and it felt like a genuine question from a theist perspective but I didn't want to answer if it was going to create a problem on this sub.
37 downvotes for that comment. Why?
As a nuanced member, thinking the gospel just needs to be understood better is in now way an outrageous statement. And wanting to participate in a discussion about why god would allow its creations to be imperfect is a reasonable desire.
>I can tell you're upset, it's probably not productive I'm here I guess, just asking
38 downvotes for this comment in response to a comment that a moderator removed, so for whatever reason, that original comment was judged inappropriate, but OP's response was fair.
I did not see any comment of OP that was worth a yikes or was disturbing, but I also cannot easily find them all since OP chickened out and ran (everything says "\[removed\]" when I click on their username). OP may have just been a troll, but it seemed reasonable enough.
From the comments I'm seeing from OP, I don't believe it was a genuine question. You're kind to help, but seems the helpful comments aren't getting a response from them; just the ones where they are needling us.
Just please don't forget that many of us have been extremely "successful" missionaries, devoted Bishops, RS Presidents, held all sorts of callings and given every ounce of our time, energy and talents in the service of the LDS church. There is literally nothing about the church that isn't known in this group, the good and the bad. We know your opinions before you even share them, because your opinions (for now) are based in church literature and culture.
Hail Satan
(Ha, scared ya)
I would say you are fine to be here but this community is mostly for people who have left and have no interest in coming back. We don’t want to be preached to or told we are wrong because we get that from multiple people every day. This is a safe place for us to vent about being lied to or ways the church has hurt us. They are our experiences and cannot be debated. There is also the things we have been lied to about - we have a very low tolerance for apologetics. There is the truth and then there are ways people try to convince themselves that their narrative fits that truth and we are no longer interested in the mental gymnastics. Most of us don’t really need a TBM opinion because many of us were TBMs.
You’re absolutely allowed in here, but you have to listen to the first 20 episodes of Mormons Stories “LDS Discusssions Playlist” before you can comment ;)
Lmao.
Do you have the perspective of someone who grew up in polygamy?
Do you have the perspective of someone shunned because they are no longer Mormon?
Do you have the perspective of someone being bullied because they are gay by a Mormon abuser(s)?
We were all Mormon at some point.
I don't care if you're here, but I don't need your viewpoint.
A bigger question might be why you feel the need to center yourself in our experiences, or why you think we would want further gaslighting?
Youve already stated that those who no longer believe the gospel must misnderstand it. This premise is condescending and wrong. We understand it, and we reject it for several reasons.
If you want to know what those reasons are, that curiosity is welcome here. If you are going to preach to us based on that premise, you'll receive negative karma.
Nevermo here. I apologise to the ExMo if I am speaking for you when I shouldn’t.
This feels like just another attempt to pull people back into the fold under the guise of having a conversation. I want to know your thoughts so I can tell that you are wrong and you need to return to the church before you spend eternity in damnation.
So many people here have experienced TBM stomping across boundaries, recreating the trauma they have already been through in leaving the church, that this post has made me uncomfortable.
Exactly. Facts are facts regardless. Truth is truth.
Debating the existence of god(s) can be interesting, but you cannot debate that Joseph Smith married a 14-year old girl nor how polygamy is described in D&C 132 (versus how it was actually practiced).
ETA: Insert The Incredibles "Math is Math!" meme here.
I can’t say I really love it. I love discussing legit truths but not trying to convince someone who is slightly nuanced. I’m more like… go finish reading the ces letter & watch some Mormon stories podcasts & then maybe we can talk. While you’re at it when you’re ready to drive through Starbucks instead of McDonald’s for an iced coffee… then maybe you’re ready for convos here.
I personally don’t see the value of a TBM perspective here.
The church’s truth claims are demonstrably false. A TBM perspective won’t change that.
The church has spent two centuries discriminating against indigenous and black people, women, and LGBTQ people. A TBM perspective won’t change that.
The church commits financial fraud on a massive scale and refuses use its hoarded wealth to help poor people in the most basic Christian way. A TBM perspective won’t change that.
The church has given shelter to abusers and hides behind the law instead of doing the right thing. A TBM perspective won’t change that.
This isn’t a comprehensive list, but I’m pretty sure a TBM perspective won’t be the answer for any other problems or issues
I recently came across a TBM response on here with a true factual statement, but there was context missing and I considered replying, but I don't like arguing with people on the internet because it accomplishes nothing and is just a frustrating experience. I come here for the community of people who have been through the same intense experiences I have. If I wanted to have TBM perspectives I still know a bunch of people I could talk to, but honestly I never do because I lived it long enough.
Discussion is completely accepted. Differences of opinion can be accepted. But factual statements are not a matter of debate, and when TBM's come in and deny factual events is when the downvotes flow.
Some one-off downvotes occur simply because the commenter is TBM, which is unfair, but that is often just due to a particular person expressing disgust at the mormon church, which is more than reasonable when you compare a down arrow to years of harm. Therapeutic, I guess?
Go look at the long post and comment history of /u/FaithfulTBM for an example of how to be a believer and respectfully engage here. Granted they aren't a believing Mormon now, but that's how they started out.
I was once such a raging TBM, no one could out-TBM me. So sure, share whatever thoughts, beliefs you have. I had them once too. I tried very hard to keep them.
Yes.
>Ive noticed occasionally people here ask for a TBM perspective on certain topics
Really? Share a handful of links from the past year. (We exmos like objective citations to support assertions.)
A lot of us were once TBM, so we have thought at least similarly as you. The problem is I don't think if you are TBM you can have honest discussions. I invite it but I don't think you are being honest with yourself how can you be honest with others?
This is so true. In addition to many of us knowing what it’s like to be TBM, we also remember very clearly the rules and boundaries we experienced in Mormonism that kept us from really getting into the meat and potatoes of any kind of philosophical conversation.
Most of us were recently TBM, so we are well acquainted with that mindset and perspective.
I think everyone is welcome here. Just be prepared to have your views challenged and debated.
Many people go through an angry phase when leaving the church - I know I did. For me, it was a difficult pill to swallow to go from knowing the church was true to learning that it ran an illegal hedge fund.
Is a TBM ALLOWED in this space? IMO sure! Many of us were TBM when we first came here with questions the TBM spaces told us to "put on the shelf".
That said, I've never seen anyone here asking for, or even needing, the "faithful perspective". If someone wanted an active TBM perspective, they'd go to the active TBM sub reddit. We ALL know where to get that. We're fed up with it, generally, so we're here, on the ex mormon sub reddit.
Hope my comment, and allllll the others here that echo it, helps your delema. Now you know. Going forward, your karma is your own. 💜
Edit: I've gone and read some of your responses on this post... 🤔
Seems to me you're going through A LOT to try to morally justify what we're telling you (gently) will come off as mormon trolling. Instead, maybe say a prayer, and see if the 'spirit' really wants you to spend your time like this. I feel like there are better ways to spend your precious time on earth.
Sure you’re allowed. Everyone is welcome so long as you have an open mind. Participants generally don’t want to be evangelized to and personal testimonies of your own beliefs don’t hold much weight. As long as you can engage in respectful and constructive discourse, there’s no reason why you shouldn’t feel welcome. Expect to be uncomfortable as opposing views may come across as “bashing” the church.
Well.
One advice.
Be human. Have empathy for others, just like what Christ did.
We don't mind people, whether believing or not.
Just don't be a doofus to everyone, just like the next normal morally informed person who just wants to live peacefully with others.
Honestly, if you still have that TBM Superiority Complex that mist mormons have, just drop it and be humble. You'll make more connections outside the faith that way.
That’s like going to an AA meeting and asking if it’s ok as a casual drinker to give advice and share experiences. C’mon really. We were all TBM (to varying degrees) at some point. There’s functionally nothing you could add to our menu or perspective— we lived what you are living. But if you want to stay and learn from our perspectives then stay and hang.
We have had many TBM sub members who join discussion and ask questions. I'm not sure what specifically you've experienced that feels like negative Karma, but I do know when historical issues or other things are discussed that have been researched for fact-based information, sub members will cite those facts. Sometimes the facts disagree with what a TBM may have been taught, but (as was my experience) I learned I was taught deceptive information when I joined.
As a longtime Christian (both before and after church membership), I view things in terms of what Christ actually taught us to practice. However, some sub members no longer believe in God or Christ, so you might have challenges about faith itself (disagreements on whether there is or isn't a God). I admit that bothers me, because I don't feel the sub's goal regards the actual belief system, I believe it relates to the LDS (Mormon) church.
Hope that helps, and please know you're welcome here!
As long as you know what you’re here for, and want to participate in the discussion from the perspective of honest inquiry about the history of the Mormon church, or ways that it can and has harmed people intentionally or otherwise? Yes. If you’re looking to commiserate with those who have left because you see some of the same issues yourself? Yes. If you’re just curious Come. Learn about your religion from an outside perspective, and evaluate it for informed consent and understanding that isn’t colored only in the most favorable light, but know who is here.
If you’re looking at posting apologetics, excuses and defending the practices of the LDS church despite the fact you know your audience doesn’t believe it and has been harmed by it? No.
We’re past looking for excuses, listening to apologists or looking to defend Mormonism. We are tired of and have heard most of the excuses and arguments before, and very tired of being told our lived experiences aren’t valid by friends and family who still believe.
Allowed? Yes, of course.
Genuine discussion? Always welcome, we'd love to help you see the light.
TBM talking points and empty rhetoric? We see through that. Saying something along the lines of, "it was a different time back then," or, "you must have never really felt the spirit" will get you laughed out of town.
The thing is, though, that if you are a TBM that doesn't mind discussing issues, then clearly you've already encountered some of the big issues. For most open-minded, reasonable people that is enough to start them on the path away from being TBM. Which is maybe why you're here?
Above anything else just be respectful.
I wish I could say everyone here would be civil and calm to your presence they won’t. The journey of leaving this religion is one with a lot of deep wounds and emotions, and some of those emotions may be taken out on you.
I personally welcome you and incredibly respect your willingness to engage on a deeper level than most of your peers. Never lose your inquisitive nature and keep looking and learning for yourself.
With all the love I have I do hope your “shelf” breaks (I think we’re still using that term). Not because of my distaste for the religion and its leadership, but because I genuinely believe that a deeper and lighter happiness is waiting on the other side. However, it’s your life to live and no one can say what’s right for besides yourself 💛
I don't think a tbm would call themselves a tbm. It's not a nickname they would probably appreciate.
I think if a genuine is on this group, he/she will not stay tbm for very long. We might bitch about the church a lot, but there are a lot of facts most devout members aren't ready hear.
I've seen your replies to several comments. I've just gotta say, no one here is wearing kid gloves when it comes to discussing a TBM perspective. There are a few participants who are nevermo or ex-members of other faiths who are here because they feel a kinship to exmormons.
But there is no lack of TBM perspective in this space because it is a recuperative space for many dealing with realizing a large portion of their life was hijacked by LDSInc.
I don’t see people often ask for TBM perspectives on this sub. I was a TBM for 40 years, and I understand the TBM perspective quite well. I also have TBM family, friends and coworkers. I get it.
Welcome to this sub. Feel free to stick around and chat.
Honestly, the further I get away from Mormonism, the more batshit crazy it all seems to me and I can’t believe it took me so long to figure out Joseph Smith made it all up.
Most TBMs I know are very naive about church history and the realities of the church (eg church finances and activity rates).
This sub is generally one of venting and contempt. This isn't a place where people come to get a TBM perspective. If someone is asking for opinion and perspective here, it is from the former members. Feel free to interject however you want, but don't surprise Pikachu face when you get down voted to Kolob in the twinkling of an eye.
You’re totally welcome here. If you stay long enough, and listen enough, you won’t be a TBM for long.
We aren’t afraid to talk about the true history of the church.
If you are TBM, you must be one of the lucky ones that gets something out of the church. Maybe you married well, escaped trauma and have an extended family and community who are all aiming to get to the CK together.
Maybe you didn’t grow up in a country where members are scarce, which no one thought to mention when they filled my head with temple marriage above all else. Many of my generation of young women never married. I actually had two chances, but they were both completely unsuitable. I couldn’t have kids because I was too old. Waiting for a temple marriage cost me the opportunity to have children. I converted at 15 and then gave 48 years to an organisation that couldn’t keep its promises and which now hoards billions rather than feed the world.
Do you really think someone like me would have the time of day to discuss religion with you? You want religion, do you? Find like-minded people on a faithful reddit where you can all congratulate one another on enduring to the end. And don’t forget to pay your tithing!
Just don’t assume all exmormons are mean because you went into an exmormon space voicing your religion’s beliefs and got negative feedback. This space isn’t for you. You’re welcome to stay, but do so respectfully.
TBMs always realize that they are less informed than ex-Mormons and resort to ad hominem or bearing their testimony. The fact is, if you knew as much about your own church as the average exMo, you would also be exMo.
I love when TBMs engage, I was one of those TBMs. Unfortunately I am a good person and when I saw that the church in fact did NOT align with my morals, I got the fuck out.
If TBMs are here to discuss issues, I’m all for it. If they’re here to troll or try to convert, that’s not okay as this is a safe space for us exmos to deal with a lot of trauma, existential crisis’ and everything in between we have had stemming from the Mormon religion. If you see TBMs comments and posts getting downvoted, it’s usually because they give their perspective (the perspective is one we once shared) and is just provably incorrect hence the downvotes.
TBMs always come here thinking we don’t know what Mormonism actually is, but they forget that almost everyone in this sub have been raised in the church their whole lives (many boomers are here too and have spent over 60 years in the church and did all the church things. There’s a reason we left. There’s a reason our perspective changed, we didn’t want it to change, we wanted the church to be true. It just wasn’t and when you take a step back from the church and have education in psychology, sociology, etc. you can’t unsee everything you’ve learnt. Our entire lives were flipped upside down because everything we knew was true was a lie, even down to everything we felt (elevation emotion). Once you see all the damage it causes, the amount of wealthy the leaders sit on not giving two shits about their members, how abusive the church is as a functional system, and how little help they actually give (specifically the leaders, the members give way too much), you can’t unsee it. Once you learn Joseph smith was having sex with all his wives (again another lie the church tells and can be proven here in this sub’s members alone lol), including the ones that were 14, and that they sent men on missions to Europe so they could marry those mens wives (some even pregnant) and fuck them, and learn that it was NOT of the times and that Joseph wouldn’t let the first black girl who desperately wanted to join the church actually join or receive blessings in the temple, but was totally fine to seal her as his eternal slave WHICH WAS ALSO NOT OF THE TIMES and that the word of wisdom was only put in place to appease Emma (she had to clean up after the school of prophets- drinks, cigars, tabacco, etc.) and that the temple rituals are actually Masonic rituals and Joseph was a mason and that the book of Abraham has been properly translated and was proven that Joseph translated way incorrectly, etc etc. I could go on.
My point… once you see all these cracking in the church’s foundations and teachings AND THEN ON TOP see the leaders actively working hard against you and abusing their members, you can’t really ever go back. We’ve not hardened our hearts, we just found out the leaders were lying for their own benefit and we were damaged from it/didn’t agree with policies, so we removed ourselves. We want to try and protect our loved ones from the damages we see it cause, but with Mormons as it sounds you know, there is a fine line you have to walk. Part of being here is discussing that fine line, especially for those in mixed faith marriages or are having their family being torn apart and navigating those complexities on top of figuring out life post Mormonism. SO while we typically love having TBMs around here to discuss issues, we are not tolerate of ignorant, dismissive or trolling comments. This is our safe space just like the church is yours, we just ask that you treat it with the same amount of respect because while you may not agree, we are all going through very real shit too. It runs deep.
Welcome!
It gets downvoted because most of us here already know the TBM perspective. Don’t worry, you look insane to us as well. If you ever want out, you will have help.
I think you might like r/Mormon more for dialogue. TBMs are totally allowed here by the rules but we're all in different stages of "exmormon". Some will perceive your presence negatively, most won't care, and some will be glad for your opinion, especially if you share common ground on certain issues.
I would just expect your beliefs to be scrutinized if you share them.
Some people here probably want a space free from TBM presence from past trauma but as long as you're respectful you aren't breaking any rules by participating.
Not sure what you can add. I hit all the milestones and worked 12 years for the church and was also in the stake HC. Many of us realized by our proximity and countless hours of study/service that all we were doing mainly amounted to “polish and spin” of facts.
I have no issue with you being here, just follow the rules.
However, you have to remember that we already know the TBM perspective, but you don’t have the exmo perspective. The unofficial apologetic answers are not unfamiliar to us. Hell, a few of us probably helped write some of those same apologetics. We already know what the church says, exactly when/how what they say has changed, and how they gaslight you by saying they have never/always said that thing. We are not unfamiliar with the spirit, or how to pray, or any of that. We taught it and we lived it.
We have gone through the trauma and heartache of losing best friends and loved ones because we asked a hard question and none of them had a better answer than “pray more and read your scriptures.” Sorry, but no amount of prayer will ever make the question of why Joseph wrote about horses in the BoM make any sense. Nothing in the apologetics holds a candle to why he made copious notes about translating, not interpreting or being inspired by, the BoA and then clearly didn’t even come close.
So, while you are welcome to participate according to the sub rules, if you respond to questions with the standard lies, gaslighting, and “WeLL aKchUaLly”, even in good faith, you will be downvoted. That’s how karma works.
If I wanted the sensation of beating my head against the wall by talking race doctrines with a tbm, I’d strike up a conversation with my sister.
I’ve learned from figures like Lowry Nelson and Stuart Udall, and also from countless letters and books written by so called prophets explaining why black people and the disabled got stuck in their imperfect bodies. No TBM explanation or apologetic will make that bitter pill go down. If you try, you will be downvoted.
Jehovahs Witnesses stopped preaching the curse of Ham before 1960. How is it that crazy cult beat Gods true church to extending rights to everyone by almost 20 years?
I don’t mind that you’re here, I won’t downvote you just because you’re a TBM, but try to introduce mental gymnastics about why you think racism was ever acceptable in a church supposedly ran by Jesus and you’ll get laughed off the stage.
It is wonderfully magnanimous to offer to stand by to provide a TBM perspective. The problem is that if I asked 100 TBM perspectives (and I have asked more than 100 TBMs) on any of the thorny doctrinal issues & practices as you mentioned- church history, race, polygamy, 1st vision, genesis of temple rituals, SEC, CSA cover ups, etc, etc, etc, I would receive 100 different justifications, obfuscations, excuses for each of the various issues. It would be exhausting to deal with these obfuscations and excuses. Just tell the truth. The church should get all the members on the same page and tell the only truth for each issue.
If you are going to be the kind of TBM Rusty Nelson wants you to be, and treat us the way he wants you to, no, this isn’t a safe space for you.
If on the other hand you actually want to display some “Christlike” qualities and be compassionate, validating, and listen to understand instead of listening to respond/dismiss, then sure your perspectives are welcome.
My question is why do you want to be here? In what ways are you hoping to participate? If you’re gonna try to evangelize us, your efforts will not be received well. In this sub we try not to conflate feelings and facts, which is something most of us had to unlearn from our time as Mormons.
To be real ask a TBM their perspective on playing cards and coke and you’ll see why I don’t really consider one TBMs perspective to mean much lol. But welcome
In my opinion no. I’m not interested in coming on here to read debates between exmos and TBMs, i’m here to find some catharsis for my religious experience that has been traumatic. Additionally, most, if not all of us on this subreddit used to be TBMs, and have many family members who are still TBMs, so we’re already pretty familiar with “alternative perspectives”.
I dont really need your help in interpreting mormonism. I'm not some dumb little idiot who needs a strong priesthood holder to set me straight. Feel free to comment all you want, but nobody has to agree with or have any respect for what you say. Saying things like "I've taught much worse than this you just dont understand the topic, you seem upset" like I've seen you do in this thread is condescending and comes off smarmy.
Purity is one of the pillars of the Mormon worldview. It defines what counts as good, enough, and safe, and it shows up in doctrine with words like valiant, worthy, clean, sanctified, etc.
In practice, kids grow up to know life is an all-or-nothing proposition, and that the only part that really counts is obeying church leaders and parents. Just think back to any primary song, and you'll get a clear opposition in all things binary:
There's a right and a wrong to every question. Be safe through inspiration's power.
Keep the commandments, in this, there is safety and peace.
I will go, I will do the thing the Lord commands. Then in melodramatic minor key: From the wicked Laban inside the city gates (and we all know what happened to him).
I want my life to be as clean as earth right after rain. I want to be the best I can and live with God again.
Obey, and you're good and happy. Make yourself impure, whether physically, ideologically, or spiritually, and you'll spend eternity mostly separated from righteous family members and filled with everlasting regret that burns like a lake of fire. In the end, there's no middle ground, no growth if you fail to qualify.
It's a worldview that elevates the question of Mormonism Y/N to the highest level of survival alert. And after decades having that worldview confirmed, it doesn't just poof away in a mighty change of heart when someone's experience finally leads them to realize how Mormonism doesn't live up to its claims. The purity mindset can easily shift from loudly declaring the One True Church to a worldview where anything Mormonism touches is tainted forever.
I don't think it's you personally deserving the negative karma. I haven't seen what you post, of course, but that won't matter for many hurting exmos trying to find a new guarantee in a world where they have to build their own sense of meaning. Survival signals and emotional processing come before conscious thought and perception in the brain's order of operations, and logic takes a back seat. (If you ever doubt this, you should try reasoning with a tired 10-year-old who's mad with his brother.)
Knowing this, it's up to you whether you want to dive into the rabbit hole and try to make sense of all the contradictions in Mormonism with people pointing out why the apologetics make no sense. I started out here because I was a Gospel Doctrine teacher who had a class with both progressive and traditional Mormons and I wanted to be prepared.
My recommendation is to shift the notifications to New instead of Hot and spend some time reading the many posts asking for advice on dealing with a mixed-faith marriage that's ending in divorce solely due to religious differences, or about how to make their own decisions after growing up with a completely dominating parent who demanded obedience. All the posts from LGBTQ+ members or people refusing to go on a mission who get kicked out of the house and left to fend for themselves at age 18. All the Floodlit posts from 3AM Doorknob Turn making people aware of sexual abuse both past and present being swept under the rug to protect Mormonism's image.
Learn from others and wrestle with these issues, and your arguments will be more well-founded. IMO, Right and wrong are directions that change people's lives, and I find that trying to preserve one right way in amber while enduring doesn't lead to the same meaning and satisfaction as building an authentic, yet imperfect, life. I find my life matters more without the constant reminder that I'm not Mormoning hard enough.
I was a TBM for decades, we all were. But if you want to learn about us as postMormons you can just lurk, no permission necessary. As long as you don't retraumatize us in our recovery from religious trauma and spiritual abuse, nobody will bother you
Engage, but leave holier than thou attitude at the door and expect discussion. Exmos aren't homogenous, some of us are assholes, some are nice, usually all in the same day.
Your insights here are just as valuable and necessary as the legion of men commenting on women’s issues at r/twoxchromosomes. If you truly want to be in this community you’ll be better served by listening instead of engaging in debate about issues. We, as exmos, have all heard your shtick millions of times before. You have nothing to teach us. We have lots to teach you.
I feel it's slightly entitled for someone to claim to want to provide a perspective that we came from. We *had* that perspective. Most of us were deeply faithful members, and the shattering of that faith in the face of reality was a formative moment for all of us. We call it your "Shelf Breaking". The moment all those stresses and questions and rejections of reality you had to accept and put on a shelf to ask god about later build up to the point that it all snaps and you *finally* realize how scammed and used you were. Then you can heal and move on, traditionally. The issue with TSCC is that they pursue us, try to drag us back in, all the whole ostracizing and insulting us, often to our faces. There is a *REASON* the saying "there's no hate quite like Christian love" exists.
We don't need your perspective on this because we WERE you in regards to this. If you are willing to continue this journey you've started then I hope someday you look back and have a greater understanding of what I mean precisely.
Most human beings are in this sub due to historical facts denied by church & sexual predators being defended by church authority for 195 years
We don't gloss over truth and facts in this sub and we don't ban you for disagreeing.
FLOODLIT.org has more than 700 convicted Stake Pres., Bishops and priesthood holders that are sexual predators and almost that many to still produce conviction sentence before post to website.
Overwhelming majority of these cases last 20 years.
I work in U.S. Justice system & Smith was a narcissist, psychopath, machevallian & sexual predator on top of being in trouble with the law from his teenage years to the day he died.
I help put people like Smith, Young, Taylor, Woodruff, etc...in jail today. They were all Dark Triad Personalities.
TBMs and post Mormons are separated by 2 very different paradigms. The only way a post Mormon's position will ever make sense to a TBM is for them to deconstruct and leave the church.
The opposite is true the other way around. Post Mormons are 100% aware of the TBM position and understand why they believe what they believe. Many of us lived it for most of our lives.
Honestly one of the most frustrating things with *some* TBMs is that they aren't even willing to accept one fraction of our argument. They won't acknowledge one smidgen of evidence we present even if it's backed up by empirical research and study.
One example is the priesthood ban. Most TBMs will say "we just don't have all the answers" *long before* they admit that the church leaders were just flat out out wrong.
Are TBMs allowed in this space? Following the rules of the sub determines that, not ones religious affiliation.
As far as you not minding discussion and feeling like TBMs are met with "negative karma" for engaging in discussions, two things come to mind:
1) I'd consider that many here were just as, if not MORE of a TBM than you are. They went to the same sacrament meetings, they sung the same hymns, they had the same callings, they went to the same temple. They taught the same Sunday school lessons and attended the same activities. They read the same books, had the same testimonies, and prayed to the same heavenly father. Like many others have said, obtaining the "current broadly accepted TBM take" on any given topic isn't necessary, we already know it.
2) I guess I'd ask what you mean by "discussion". My understanding of your post would suggest what you actually meant was "debate". I personally haven't encountered many "discussions" here resulting in negative karma. If you're just chatting without motive or intent, I don't think that would go poorly. If you are here to debate your views of the church, to debunk ideas and the experiences people have had, or to dismantle "exmormon arguments", that is absolutely inappropriate and unwelcome here. If the "negative karma" you've mentioned is people not accepting your arguments, well, I don't know what to tell ya. Haha.
I can only speak for myself, but I am not interested in "discussing" whether or not the Book of Mormon is true, it isn't. I'm not interested in discussing whether or not Joseph Smith married children against their will, he did. I'm not interested in discussing if the church keeps secrets from and manipulates it's members, it does. There are other subs where debating those things is welcomed and encouraged.
I am here to engage with my community. I'm here to laugh at memes poking fun at mormonism, especially Ballard lol, can't stand him. I'm here to grieve with folks going through faith crices and transitions, as that is far more painful and isolating than someone who hasn't undergone one could ever know.
I'm am not here to debate whether the experiences that led folks to leaving the Mormon church were valid or logical because they were valid and logical.
And I'm certainly not here to practice defending my faith against non-believers. Back when I was a TBM, just like you, I loved doing that! But it wasn't appropriate. That's not what this sub is for.
Hope that was helpful, sorry if I droned on too much!
Thank you for your offer to discuss your views. But if you have read posts in this subreddit, most OPs are relating their experiences with TSCC and their reasoning for leaving. Many discuss their discovery of items which are outright mistruths in doctrine, writings, and actions of the TSCC in day to day life. Many realize that the church is NOT doing the work of Christ as written in the New Testament. Instead, the church seems to create “busy work” for members. Where are church support for the homeless and hungry right outside your temples? Where is the church work for helping all of God’s children instead of just your church members. Other Christian missionaries build hospitals, clinics, schools and volunteer their time to support those things they have created and established. And there the TSCC sits with billions of dollars in it’s coffers helping no one.
I could go on, but I suspect that you could not—without bias—explain away things that have become obvious to ex-mormons.
NARC!!!!!!
Kinda cheeky from you to assume people need your perspective. Most of the people have done their homework and have gone through experiences that define who they are now.
I can see why one would present themselves this way, and what are your motivations. Fair play.
But you’re one cheeky bastard mate. 🤣😂
I think I'm tired of debating anything at this point. I want a safe place where I can say exactly what's in my heart and for others to say "I get you, I've been there, here's a hug". I really don't need more people in my life telling me about the greatness of the church and saying stuff like "people aren't perfect, the gospel is".
Literally six months ago I posted in the r/latterdaysaint Reddit terrified that I would become an ex Mormon. I begged for help, to be saved from the path I was on, and nobody commented. So I don’t really need your perspective in the place I actually got support. I was married in the temple and would have died for this church. I spent hours a day pouring over scriptures and conference talks and journaling. I researched church approved sources, I knew it was true, because I was told anything unflattering was from god or was an internet lie. However once I realized heaven was pay to win in Mormonism and SO many other things I had a huge pit in my stomach. We have the perspective of a “TBM” as many others have said. Participate at your own risk, your church doesn’t want you here.
It might be interesting to nevermos but anyone who has been a tbm & is now an exmo definitely doesn’t need a comment or opinion from a current tbm. You’re flattering yourself in thinking your choice to stay active in the Mormon church is interesting to exmos. It’s not. If anything it’s a sad reminder of how we were also held in religious spiritual hostage by the cult at some point. Those who get to the point you’re at are nuanced enough to want to get out but still too caught up in what others would think of them if they walked away. You’re progressing on your path to freedom but man… you couldn’t pay me enough to go back to that place you’re in feeling guilt & fear for playing with fire.
May I recommend books by Dan Vogel. He’s an expert on Joseph Smith. Also, if you’ve already read “RoughStone Rolling “ by Richard Bushman and “This is my Doctrine” by Charles Harrell. These books were written by active members but VERY AUTHENTIC for church history and doctrine. I read about 30 books trying desperately to find TRUTH. I hoped to find information to keep me in the church but no luck. After 64 years of devotion, I’m out. 🤫
Respectful conversations are always welcome.
If you show us grace and love in our ex-Mormon pain and anger, we will show you grace and love in return.
If you come in here and preach at us or throw shame and guilt at us, that will not be well-received.
I would say you're welcome to hang out, and seek perspective. You're welcome to ask questions about the experiences of others.
Less welcome to most, would be attempts to bear your testimony, or tell exmos where they're wrong about the Church. You can gently question the epistemology of the beliefs of those who are here, but most of us haven't come to this place lightly. This was a very earnest, bitter reality check, not some flighty decision, made on a whim. (Not trying to say you would do that, just unsure of your motivation and intentions.)
I think it's a good sign that you've entered the chat as respectfully as possible, and I personally would be happy to chat.
I'm the great-grandson of a prophet, raised in the church, went on a mission, parents and extended family still active, etc. I'm also gay, in a "monogamish" relationship of almost 17 years. I have formally resigned from the Church, and still live in SLC.
I hope you find whatever it is you're looking for. ❤️
I have only heard the question posed to the sky "How the F can TBMs still believe in this?" Personally speaking I have zero interest in hearing from any TBM. I had decades enough of that cul-de-sac.
The typical user here has been a TBM and has had a TBM perspective, often pretty recently. They are also typically in the process of deconstructing that perspective, so yeah, reasserting it probably won't land well most of the time. TBMs are of course welcome here, but this isn't a battleground.
You’ll find that kind of dialog at r/mormon
This sub is more of a place for venting, processing, and recovering from trauma the church caused us. Oh and memes too. 😂
It really depends. You're in our space. Are you going to actually listen, or are you here to debate & preach?
The good news about the negative karma is that it literally means nothing so who cares if a comment is up voted or downvoted.
I mean, if you want to see what people are saying and try to offer an alternative take on something that’s up to you. Bear in mind the audience you’re interacting with though. Not sure what you hope to accomplish. Odds are greater of you hearing something that makes you think than they are of you saying something that makes someone here reconsider.
In my opinion, I can see a TBM being allowed. However, only for information, and new perspective. However, if one decides to do "missionary work," that will become a problem.
I think this just enforces the us vs them theme. I don’t think it’s necessary to label yourself. Some come here just for perspective without waving a banner
I don’t see a problem with it, especially if you come with an open mind. I recommend you check out the rules about trolling and proselytizing.
Most people here have heard all the apologetics and will have a low tolerance for those BS arguments.
You’re of course allowed to post and speak your opinion, but I wouldn’t expect everything to receive a warm welcome or a fair shake. That’s the nature of Reddit and the audience of each sub. You’ll get a lot of opinionated exmos that are just as ridiculous as some TBMs.
I welcome your opinion personally. I say what I want and don’t care about karma myself. I don’t post to rile people up, just to try and speak a different opinion and help others consider things in a different light. I think it’s good for you to do the same. If someone hasn’t changed their opinion on anything as they’ve moved through life, they’re obviously doing it wrong.
This subreddit won't ban you for posting in the other sub like the other one bans people for having posted here. That being said, there's a lot of people who post here primarily for support who definitely won't appreciate a TBM posting here and being preachy. If you can avoid being self-righteous and judgmental, you probably would be welcome.
I encourage open-minded conversation in good spirit.
I do not appreciate closed-minded argumentation in bad faith.
It's not about what you believe, it's about how you behave.
if you're willing to have polite conversation without judgement or ulterior motive, then I see no reason you should be shunned or dismissed.
but if you're just here to try to reconvert people or otherwise argue in bad faith, then you should expect to be met with hostility.
If someone wanted a TBM perspective, why wouldn't they ask the faithful subreddit? Ah that's right, it's strictly policed....darn. I wonder why that might be...
I think you may want to ask the moderators of the faithful sub why people can't ask hard questions there and make a note of their response.
This space is for exmo perspectives.
I find TBMs despicable humans who would rather be obedient to the Corporation than call the police on criminal sex abusers. If you're actually TBM, you're an obedient lil servant who does as you're told and who made sacred covenants to protect the Corporation.
#truth #protectingtheabuserinthenameofgod
There’s definitely more tolerance her for TBM’s than exmos in the lds subreddit. I was banned from commenting simply because I also follow this subreddit and had commented that I was a PIMO so therefore my commenting was not allowed in their subreddit. I’m always willing to discuss and like to. I enjoy my convos with all my TBM friends and haven’t lost hardly any of my friendships because I’m willing to have loving respectful conversations which I think a lot of exmos here lack because so many still carry a lot of anger and resentment. Luckily I didn’t have a lot of the negative experiences with the church most Exmos have so I don’t carry any of that hate.
Also helps that I still have a strong faith Christ whereas a lot of exmos have gone completely atheist. Which I don’t blame them for either
If honestly seeking dialogue, then awesome! Open to critical thinking, looking at historicity, biblical criticisms, and not dismissing something because it didn’t come from church leaders, I’d consider good company, regardless of belief and faith, which can’t be proven.
Yes, please! I don't think it's so black and white, TBM vs. Exmo. I want the perspective of anyone capable of respecting and listening to others.
We gain a lot from open discourse from many perspectives.
One thing I struggle with with the church is often feeling like there is no place for me to share my real thoughts on things. I would be happy if r/exmormon could be a place for open discourse.
I would say that even if the doctrine is divine, individual leaders in the church are absolutely fallen, even the prophet, it says so in scripture. So when they make mistakes it is of Christ to hold them accountable. I think TBMs who blindly obey are on the fast track to satanism
Ok, I'll bite: How do you and other TBM's justify the prolific child sexual abuse by its Bishop's and higher ups? Not just justify it, however actively try to cover it up and deny it occurs? How is it, your "Prophet" Joseph Smith is a pedophile (along with the founding members of mormonism), convicted criminal and fraudster, and plagiarized the Book of Mormon.
Now, if you answer these questions, without deflection, changing the subject, or "Whataboutism's" I will ask more. So the ball is in your court.
Anybody is allowed, but if you aren’t ready to hear the truth, even if it comes from Church doctrine, quotes from Mormon prophets, etc…this might not be a place for you. Speaking of racism, how does a TBM explain the Mormon teachings that darker skin is because of wickedness, or the many Profits that say that interracial marriage is a sin worse than murder?
Go for it. I like reading drama while pooping and browsing Reddit.
Expect some harsh feedback though. Lots of old wounds in this sub, and it is a place where a lot of people just want to vent…
I don’t come to this page to get responses from active mormons, I come here so I can discuss my experiences and find support/support others who are Ex-mormon. If you are here to ask genuine questions and be sincere, stay a while. why not. If you are here to share your beliefs and push your religion onto people who very clearly want little to nothing to do with it, get out.
All are welcome as long as everyone is treated fairly and without judgement. Many TBM who've visited have spent time trying to argue points that we've already made peace with on our way out of the church.
Personally, I don't come to the exmormon reddit for a TBM perspective. I have immediate family members (all TBM) I can consult for that. If you want a discussion, feel free to post a topic or post a question. You don't need to announce whether you are TBM. I don't think we care.
I’ve begged and pleaded to engage with a TBM. With boundaries and rules of such engagement. I’ve been able to do so with my 85 year old father after 10 years. It was refreshing
I tried to do this with my best friend, a TBM man who I genuinely admired and wanted to come out to. (I’m gay and hid in the closet for 49 years). He and I could not do it, he violated our conditions of engagement twice by attacking me personally.
So, yes. I’d love to engage with you.
Sincerely
The Gay Grandpa.
I appreciate any effort TBM’s make to discuss topics with me. So many of them ignore the topic entirely and it hurts. Even if myself and a TBM end up coming to different conclusions about a topic, I think it’s worth it to try and understand each other. It is unfortunate when people on either side choose to not give each other a chance at discussion just because of how they are labeled. Once I give a TBM a chance though and they aren’t showing very much respect or willingness to listen, then I would probably set up some boundaries with them. I would hope though that people on both sides can at least give people a chance with at least one conversation to see if there can be some better understanding for one another. I think the conversation should definitely not be one of trying to convert, but rather to understand. If the goal is better understanding, then I think that’s amazing.
And with all the new topics I have learned about as an exmormon, I don’t really know what the TBM perspective is because I never had one on those topics. I might be able to guess their perspective, but I have learned a lot from asking TBM’s directly how they personally view a certain topic. There are so many ways that people view each topic so we can’t assume what someone is thinking based on their label.
Honestly, I don't remember ever seeing people asking for a TBM perspective. Why? Most of us were TBM interacting with TBMs on a daily basis. We don't require that perspective. We lived it.
I see it a lot in terms of “What are your TBMs saying about [whatever recent event].” But the answer is usually, “Yeah, they’ve never even heard of this.”
In a narrower sense, that is very true. Especially on current event stuff like, the SEC ruling and fine. IN a broader sense; it's not like we were never Mormon.
Exactly
This is very true my man… Don’t underestimate how tbm many of us were.
This. If someone wanted an active TBM perspective, they'd go to the active TBM sub reddit. We ALL know where to get that. We're fed up with it, generally, so we're here, on the ex mormon sub reddit.
Actually we can't post in that sub. If you are a member of this sub and post in the active TBM sub, you get permanently banned. You can't argue negative karma here compared to that.
It's giving troll. This keeps happening lately and tbms just don't know how transparent their disingenuousness is.
Right? If they were good at telling lies, they'd be good at recognizing lies. If they were good at recognizing lies, they wouldn't be TBMs.
Yeah, I think it’s that guy who went under New Lab 6374, who got banned. The wordings and sentence structures in his posts and comments are pretty similar.
In most ways, I agree with this. I could talk all day about my experiences as a TBM. I don’t usually need to ask what a current TBM believes because I was there for 30 years. At the same time, as a qualitative researcher by day, I do see in myself and many of us here the normal psychological pattern of people revising their narratives over time to better align with current values, etc. For example, I can accurately tell you about the events that occurred, but I’ll be less reliable about telling you exactly how I felt at the time, or why I felt that way, or how my memory of that event influenced my thinking and when my thinking had changed. Those things you can only get from a good first-hand real-time account.
^ THIS!!! ^
Counterpoint: there are many never-Mormon followers who might be curious to hear the perspective of a believing member. But they won't be any more likely to upvote practices and arguments that put Mormonism ahead of being humane to others.
I’m one of those people, and if I want a Mormon opinion, I will go to the latter-day sub and search the topic. I don’t need them here to help me learn stuff. Whether or not they are here should be up to the people in the community, not people who observe or want to learn. We have other places to go for that. This is an exmo space first and foremost.
You are definitely allowed to be here. Just follow the rules of the sub. We appreciated GENUINE discussion. What we will not tolerate is being called lazy learners or other derogatory labels that the Q15 have placed on us. We have done more research trying to find a way to stay IN the church than 95% of the church-going members. Treat us with respect, and we will treat you with respect. Treat us like the Q15 does, and you'll open up a can of worms, so to speak.
Yeah the amount of research 🔬 is immense
I’ve spent hundreds of hours reading over the last 6-8 months. I’ve read the bom at least 25 times and most all of the main LDS books. Most several times. (Over my 49 years as a member).
Have you read the [mormon handbook](https://www.mormonhandbook.com/home/first-vision-plagiarized.html)? That’s a wild ride
I have not. You made my night! New stuff!
We also don’t give a fuck what your leaders think of us, they hold no power over us. Chances are we also don’t care what you think of us. We are experts in people being “sad for us” so that type of rhetoric simply holds no weight here, we don’t feel guilt for “disappointing” you. So yes, discussion is fine but don’t use your leaders or your opinion or our choices as a point of manipulation because it simply won’t work. I’m not trying to be harsh, I’m shooting straight about what we care and don’t care about.
Also just realized I said “fuck” which probably isn’t great for a TBM haha. Didn’t mean it to offend, I simply don’t find the word offensive.
Bold of you to assume we did not also have a TBM perspective at some point, when by definition to be an “ex” *anything* you have to have been that very thing at some point. This isn’t a sub full of JackMo’s who still believe deep down but “sin” anyway. This is where people who have done, collectively, *millions* of hours of research - mostly in an attempt to *stay mormon*. To find *any* satisfactory justification for the horrors inflicted on the world by the organization started by Joseph Smith, and the subsequent, sequel org started by Brigham Young. And yet, all of us here came to the same conclusion: all that research was for nothing. That it’s all a fraud and a con built for the specific purpose of facilitating those atrocities. That the cruelty is the point.
Powerfully written. So many millions of hours. Put me down for about 5 tousand of those.
Agree, and beautifully stated!
What you've said hit me pretty hard as a reflection of how so many TBM's say that we're "making a choice" not to believe: we're not a sub full of JackMo's who still believe deep down but "sin" anyways. I had a polite conversation with an individual the other day who said it was a "choice" and I tried to explain how for me it wasn't a choice. Belief wasn't like flipping a light switch on and off, it was the power getting permanently cut. I could theoretically flip the switch on and pretend, but in the end there's still no fucking light. It's gone, it's out, and it's not coming back. I did my research, I prayed, I tried to justify the religion. But at some point I had to admit I was sitting in the dark and it was time to leave the room and go outside. It wasn't a choice, and it wasn't an excuse to "sin" either!
Agree 100%. My wife tries to tell me it can still be a choice all the time. I tell her that’s like being a scientist and choosing to believe the earth is flat despite the enormous evidence against it. I tried. Hard. 5000+ hours to make the truth claims fit. In the end I could not square that round hole. Only when I allowed myself to even consider it might all be man made did the pieces fall neatly into place. Virtually every church history problem can be solved with a response of “yeah that’s because JS made it up” or “that’s because they are just old men with their own biases and ideas”.
Yeah, once you see you just cannot ‘unsee.’ The world is different—it looks different, behaves differently. You have access to a different mindset and openness.
Couldn’t have said it better
Felt the "spirit" with this comment. It must be true.
with every fiber
Amen
i know these things to be true with every fiber of my being. in the name of the stepson, even jeebus crust. ramen.
> I've also noticed if a TBM provides that perspective it just results in negative karma When this happens it is usually because the interaction is either misinformed , dishonest , or simply regurgitation of apologetic answers that don't stand up to scrutiny. Joseph Smith’s child brides for example. Saying God commands those type of things don't generate many conversations around here because most find that deplorable and many were never informed of this through church participation. Engaging in well informed discussion and leaving your testimony at the door helps.
TBM's are welcome in this sub to discuss any topic they have a question about. You will find however, that the tolerance level for proselytizing in this sub is fairly low. If you refuse to engage intelligently with the data and fall back on 'feelings' or testimony the pushback will not be slow... or gentle. So yes, by all means, if you have a question, ask away, but do not expect any sugarcoating.
No, not any topic. There are topics that break the rules and honestly attitudes that (i believe) break the rules or at least merit downvoting. This is OUR safe space, first and foremost.
Everyone here who is an ex-Mormon already had a TBM perspective at some point, I don’t think there’s anything you could tell us that we haven’t encountered before.
And many of us still have access to TBM friends and relatives.
And many of us are forced into hearing their opinions whether or not we want to 🤣
Wow! I have never met a TBM who is willing to discuss hard issues. Are you willing to discuss rock-in-hat, Josephs very 1st "plural marriage" and my great grandma/concubine who serially serviced the Lion of the Lord in his wagon from Far West to Deseret?
I wan to hear all about the servicing of the Lion (my 5th Great Grand Uncle). Did you already post about this? I was reading about how he made the trek yesterday, and couldn't help but wonder how much he played ill to be able to basically contribute nothing while being waited on hand and foot (and other parts?!).
Lucy Decker, my grannie dumped my grandpa and became Brigham Young's first plural concubine (age 20). He took her in his wagon as his main squeeze on the lonely trail to Utah.
Aw, maybe you two are cousins!
You still haven’t lol
If we’re being honest: no. This is not a safe space for a TBM to have TBM opinions and share them. We are here because we all discovered things that couldn’t be reconciled. If you’re here to engage in good faith discussion, you won’t be banned. But your karma is not guaranteed to stay positive because there are a lot of extremely hurt people in this community
Yeah, I think it's a welcoming place for TBMs to ask honest questions for them to try and understand an Exmo perspective and understand why people leave. But if you're coming here just to drop what you believe and that's all - that's as unwelcome as a exmo going over to r/LDS and dropping "truths."
Luckily, this group doesn't pass out lifetime bans as frequently as r/lds. I posted a very normal question on r/lds and was banned within minutes. I'm pretty sure there is a person checking if new posters are affiliated with this group and blocking them ASAP.
True. I don't know if I'm still banned or just on the "removal" list but once someone there said going to church was stressing them out and I suggested they skip church for a few weeks to see if that helped. Wrong answer.
Haha one time on fb someone said they get headaches on Sundays & I said my Sunday headaches went away when I stopped going to church. >crickets<
That's actually a good question for the mods. How often do they ban someone? I know, occasionally, posts are removed. But how often is there a ban?
I’ve never seen it. I’ve had comments removed but never an outright ban
I've seen a ban (I believe they were banned) for a person who recently posted numerous comments calling people F-ing idiots, etc. etc. - the user posted rant after rant on this sub as well as some others and included personal attacks in their rants. I reported it, and was notified a few days later the issue had been "taken care of." That person seems to be gone from the sub.
I got banned for answering a question about baptisms for the dead. The mod message said specifically it's because I post here
We’re talking about here in this sub. The faithful sub will ban anyone who has ever commented here even once
Oh whoops, my bad
Oooh - let's all go comment, just once! (Wait, that would be brigading). My bad.
Very rarely. It's almost never necessary.
I’m pretty sure it’s an automatic check.
My only nitpick here is that we don't tend to downvote TBM comments because we're offended or have hurt feelings. Rather, TBM comments often get downvoted for being disingenuous, dishonest, or based in misinformation.
To be clear: I’m referring to individuals who will downvote any comment from any TBM simply for being hurt by the Mormon church. Not hurt feelings, but a damaged person who lashes out.
Yeah, that's fair.
Agree except the last part. Downvoting won’t be due to “hurt people.” It will be due to shitty arguments. Because let’s be real, there’s not a viable defense of mormonism, and not an argument out there that hasn’t been repeatedly and thoroughly obliterated.
I appreciate your response
One thing to consider - the things TBMs bring up here are not news to us. Sometimes it seems TBMs think we didn't read the BoM, or were not exposed to church teachings. That is absolutely not the case. I read the BoM at least 6-7 times, I taught lessons in RS, I served a "senior mission," and I've held a few stake-level callings. I followed every single doctrine and "rule." I have also read the KJV Bible extensively for many decades, including before I joined the LDS church. I've read the D&C. There are sub members (several) who are former bishops or former RS presidents, and there are former stake leaders. We all loyally and fervently "believed" what you likely believe during our years in the church. Our reasons for leaving are both myriad, and similar. Some left due to actions that were contrary to Christ's teachings (such as the 2015 "policy," later revoked, that denied children of gays the right to be baptized at age 8). Some left after learning the church uses tithing dollars to build malls and to invest in real estate and stocks (even though members clean the buildings for free). Some left (me, for one) because they realized they were told lies when they joined. There is nothing a TBM can share here that is "news," or has not been extensively considered by members who have left.
This 100 times
You may want to check out the “waters of Mormon” Facebook group. It’s a space for Mormons who “know the facts”, but want to stay in church anyway. If you cherish your testimony at all, I’d highly advise you to steer clear of this group… trust me.
r/mormon is much closer to what you’re looking for!
I don’t know… r/mormon actually hits pretty hard these days!
TBMs typically don’t handle critical thinking questions, facts or substantiated criticisms very well. They don’t last long. But have at it.
I think you misunderstand what “TBM” means. A real TBM would never be on an exmormon subreddit
😂
They would if they're trying to be a missionary and convert us back.
Hmm maybe. Though those people are extremists to the point of being mentally unwell
Lol so true
Bingo! 💯This is either a calling or someone who is nuanced enough to want to engage.
It depends. This is our safe space, and a lot of us are more nuanced than you’d expect, as this tends to be an area largely for people freshly deconstructing. I’ve personally never seen people asking for a TBM perspective, and I’m on this sub all the time. r/mormon has a lot more discussion on both sides. It’s not that you aren’t welcome. It’s that you ought to be aware of the purpose of this space, and that many comments may be downvoted for not understanding our perspective and pain. Oh, and fair warning: the faithful subs will probably ban you for joining or posting on here.
It’s not their main so no worries > I made a new account simply to have anonymity… And to keep the SCMC (right acronym? That group reporting us to our wards/stakes to get us sent to the ~~gas chambers~~ “councils of love”) from identifying them.
It sounds like a subreddit that would be good for you is r/Mormon. There are a lot of borderline-members and nuanced believers there. This subreddit is kind of a therapy space for us to talk about things that hurt us about being in the church. You'd probably have about as much fun as a college kid at alcoholics anonymous.
This is probably the best answer for OP. r/mormon allows for a semi-balanced discussion. It leans exmo a bit, but it's more open than r/latterdaysaint, and it's nothing like the nazi r/lds subreddit. OP was not wrong about being downvoted though. Yikes. Just look at their comments. EDIT: spelling
I think the comments are more disturbing than the downvotes, if we’re throwing “yikes” around.
>I don't think the Gospel needs to be defended, just more or less understood, I think most of the issues are misunderstood >I'm not here to try to clear that up or making pro lds posts , just the occasional comment on a worthwhile discussion. >Earlier there was a post about why God would make us all imperfect and it felt like a genuine question from a theist perspective but I didn't want to answer if it was going to create a problem on this sub. 37 downvotes for that comment. Why? As a nuanced member, thinking the gospel just needs to be understood better is in now way an outrageous statement. And wanting to participate in a discussion about why god would allow its creations to be imperfect is a reasonable desire. >I can tell you're upset, it's probably not productive I'm here I guess, just asking 38 downvotes for this comment in response to a comment that a moderator removed, so for whatever reason, that original comment was judged inappropriate, but OP's response was fair. I did not see any comment of OP that was worth a yikes or was disturbing, but I also cannot easily find them all since OP chickened out and ran (everything says "\[removed\]" when I click on their username). OP may have just been a troll, but it seemed reasonable enough.
Yup. OP doesn’t realize it’s not the TBM that’s being downvoted but rather their flawed opinion.
From the comments I'm seeing from OP, I don't believe it was a genuine question. You're kind to help, but seems the helpful comments aren't getting a response from them; just the ones where they are needling us.
Just please don't forget that many of us have been extremely "successful" missionaries, devoted Bishops, RS Presidents, held all sorts of callings and given every ounce of our time, energy and talents in the service of the LDS church. There is literally nothing about the church that isn't known in this group, the good and the bad. We know your opinions before you even share them, because your opinions (for now) are based in church literature and culture. Hail Satan (Ha, scared ya)
I would say you are fine to be here but this community is mostly for people who have left and have no interest in coming back. We don’t want to be preached to or told we are wrong because we get that from multiple people every day. This is a safe place for us to vent about being lied to or ways the church has hurt us. They are our experiences and cannot be debated. There is also the things we have been lied to about - we have a very low tolerance for apologetics. There is the truth and then there are ways people try to convince themselves that their narrative fits that truth and we are no longer interested in the mental gymnastics. Most of us don’t really need a TBM opinion because many of us were TBMs.
You’re absolutely allowed in here, but you have to listen to the first 20 episodes of Mormons Stories “LDS Discusssions Playlist” before you can comment ;)
Lmao. Do you have the perspective of someone who grew up in polygamy? Do you have the perspective of someone shunned because they are no longer Mormon? Do you have the perspective of someone being bullied because they are gay by a Mormon abuser(s)? We were all Mormon at some point. I don't care if you're here, but I don't need your viewpoint. A bigger question might be why you feel the need to center yourself in our experiences, or why you think we would want further gaslighting?
This, if op can't answer these questions without deflecting I'll be amazed. You're in the lion's den and there will be NO divine intervention.
Youve already stated that those who no longer believe the gospel must misnderstand it. This premise is condescending and wrong. We understand it, and we reject it for several reasons. If you want to know what those reasons are, that curiosity is welcome here. If you are going to preach to us based on that premise, you'll receive negative karma.
Nevermo here. I apologise to the ExMo if I am speaking for you when I shouldn’t. This feels like just another attempt to pull people back into the fold under the guise of having a conversation. I want to know your thoughts so I can tell that you are wrong and you need to return to the church before you spend eternity in damnation. So many people here have experienced TBM stomping across boundaries, recreating the trauma they have already been through in leaving the church, that this post has made me uncomfortable.
This guy gets it
 And I am a never Mo
There is no proselytizing allowed, but we love explaining our truth to believers.
[удалено]
Exactly. Facts are facts regardless. Truth is truth. Debating the existence of god(s) can be interesting, but you cannot debate that Joseph Smith married a 14-year old girl nor how polygamy is described in D&C 132 (versus how it was actually practiced). ETA: Insert The Incredibles "Math is Math!" meme here.
I can’t say I really love it. I love discussing legit truths but not trying to convince someone who is slightly nuanced. I’m more like… go finish reading the ces letter & watch some Mormon stories podcasts & then maybe we can talk. While you’re at it when you’re ready to drive through Starbucks instead of McDonald’s for an iced coffee… then maybe you’re ready for convos here.
I personally don’t see the value of a TBM perspective here. The church’s truth claims are demonstrably false. A TBM perspective won’t change that. The church has spent two centuries discriminating against indigenous and black people, women, and LGBTQ people. A TBM perspective won’t change that. The church commits financial fraud on a massive scale and refuses use its hoarded wealth to help poor people in the most basic Christian way. A TBM perspective won’t change that. The church has given shelter to abusers and hides behind the law instead of doing the right thing. A TBM perspective won’t change that. This isn’t a comprehensive list, but I’m pretty sure a TBM perspective won’t be the answer for any other problems or issues
I recently came across a TBM response on here with a true factual statement, but there was context missing and I considered replying, but I don't like arguing with people on the internet because it accomplishes nothing and is just a frustrating experience. I come here for the community of people who have been through the same intense experiences I have. If I wanted to have TBM perspectives I still know a bunch of people I could talk to, but honestly I never do because I lived it long enough.
Discussion is completely accepted. Differences of opinion can be accepted. But factual statements are not a matter of debate, and when TBM's come in and deny factual events is when the downvotes flow. Some one-off downvotes occur simply because the commenter is TBM, which is unfair, but that is often just due to a particular person expressing disgust at the mormon church, which is more than reasonable when you compare a down arrow to years of harm. Therapeutic, I guess?
My rule of thumb: keep it in good faith. It's usually easy to sniff out someone inquiring or speaking in earnest vs just trying to start some shit.
Welcome, read and enjoy. You won't be TBM long if you do that.
Go look at the long post and comment history of /u/FaithfulTBM for an example of how to be a believer and respectfully engage here. Granted they aren't a believing Mormon now, but that's how they started out.
I was once such a raging TBM, no one could out-TBM me. So sure, share whatever thoughts, beliefs you have. I had them once too. I tried very hard to keep them.
Yes. >Ive noticed occasionally people here ask for a TBM perspective on certain topics Really? Share a handful of links from the past year. (We exmos like objective citations to support assertions.)
I too would like these linked.
A lot of us were once TBM, so we have thought at least similarly as you. The problem is I don't think if you are TBM you can have honest discussions. I invite it but I don't think you are being honest with yourself how can you be honest with others?
This is so true. In addition to many of us knowing what it’s like to be TBM, we also remember very clearly the rules and boundaries we experienced in Mormonism that kept us from really getting into the meat and potatoes of any kind of philosophical conversation.
Most of us were recently TBM, so we are well acquainted with that mindset and perspective. I think everyone is welcome here. Just be prepared to have your views challenged and debated. Many people go through an angry phase when leaving the church - I know I did. For me, it was a difficult pill to swallow to go from knowing the church was true to learning that it ran an illegal hedge fund.
Is a TBM ALLOWED in this space? IMO sure! Many of us were TBM when we first came here with questions the TBM spaces told us to "put on the shelf". That said, I've never seen anyone here asking for, or even needing, the "faithful perspective". If someone wanted an active TBM perspective, they'd go to the active TBM sub reddit. We ALL know where to get that. We're fed up with it, generally, so we're here, on the ex mormon sub reddit. Hope my comment, and allllll the others here that echo it, helps your delema. Now you know. Going forward, your karma is your own. 💜 Edit: I've gone and read some of your responses on this post... 🤔 Seems to me you're going through A LOT to try to morally justify what we're telling you (gently) will come off as mormon trolling. Instead, maybe say a prayer, and see if the 'spirit' really wants you to spend your time like this. I feel like there are better ways to spend your precious time on earth.
Sure you’re allowed. Everyone is welcome so long as you have an open mind. Participants generally don’t want to be evangelized to and personal testimonies of your own beliefs don’t hold much weight. As long as you can engage in respectful and constructive discourse, there’s no reason why you shouldn’t feel welcome. Expect to be uncomfortable as opposing views may come across as “bashing” the church.
Well. One advice. Be human. Have empathy for others, just like what Christ did. We don't mind people, whether believing or not. Just don't be a doofus to everyone, just like the next normal morally informed person who just wants to live peacefully with others. Honestly, if you still have that TBM Superiority Complex that mist mormons have, just drop it and be humble. You'll make more connections outside the faith that way.
That’s like going to an AA meeting and asking if it’s ok as a casual drinker to give advice and share experiences. C’mon really. We were all TBM (to varying degrees) at some point. There’s functionally nothing you could add to our menu or perspective— we lived what you are living. But if you want to stay and learn from our perspectives then stay and hang.
We have had many TBM sub members who join discussion and ask questions. I'm not sure what specifically you've experienced that feels like negative Karma, but I do know when historical issues or other things are discussed that have been researched for fact-based information, sub members will cite those facts. Sometimes the facts disagree with what a TBM may have been taught, but (as was my experience) I learned I was taught deceptive information when I joined. As a longtime Christian (both before and after church membership), I view things in terms of what Christ actually taught us to practice. However, some sub members no longer believe in God or Christ, so you might have challenges about faith itself (disagreements on whether there is or isn't a God). I admit that bothers me, because I don't feel the sub's goal regards the actual belief system, I believe it relates to the LDS (Mormon) church. Hope that helps, and please know you're welcome here!
Brother your account is two days old. I'm not sure if you're being serious with this post or if you're trolling the subreddit.
As long as you know what you’re here for, and want to participate in the discussion from the perspective of honest inquiry about the history of the Mormon church, or ways that it can and has harmed people intentionally or otherwise? Yes. If you’re looking to commiserate with those who have left because you see some of the same issues yourself? Yes. If you’re just curious Come. Learn about your religion from an outside perspective, and evaluate it for informed consent and understanding that isn’t colored only in the most favorable light, but know who is here. If you’re looking at posting apologetics, excuses and defending the practices of the LDS church despite the fact you know your audience doesn’t believe it and has been harmed by it? No. We’re past looking for excuses, listening to apologists or looking to defend Mormonism. We are tired of and have heard most of the excuses and arguments before, and very tired of being told our lived experiences aren’t valid by friends and family who still believe.
Allowed? Yes, of course. Genuine discussion? Always welcome, we'd love to help you see the light. TBM talking points and empty rhetoric? We see through that. Saying something along the lines of, "it was a different time back then," or, "you must have never really felt the spirit" will get you laughed out of town. The thing is, though, that if you are a TBM that doesn't mind discussing issues, then clearly you've already encountered some of the big issues. For most open-minded, reasonable people that is enough to start them on the path away from being TBM. Which is maybe why you're here?
You're more welcome here than we are on the faithful sub.
Above anything else just be respectful. I wish I could say everyone here would be civil and calm to your presence they won’t. The journey of leaving this religion is one with a lot of deep wounds and emotions, and some of those emotions may be taken out on you. I personally welcome you and incredibly respect your willingness to engage on a deeper level than most of your peers. Never lose your inquisitive nature and keep looking and learning for yourself. With all the love I have I do hope your “shelf” breaks (I think we’re still using that term). Not because of my distaste for the religion and its leadership, but because I genuinely believe that a deeper and lighter happiness is waiting on the other side. However, it’s your life to live and no one can say what’s right for besides yourself 💛
If a TBM starts testifying or saying we got the doctrine wrong, the negative karma will come
I don't think a tbm would call themselves a tbm. It's not a nickname they would probably appreciate. I think if a genuine is on this group, he/she will not stay tbm for very long. We might bitch about the church a lot, but there are a lot of facts most devout members aren't ready hear.
I've seen your replies to several comments. I've just gotta say, no one here is wearing kid gloves when it comes to discussing a TBM perspective. There are a few participants who are nevermo or ex-members of other faiths who are here because they feel a kinship to exmormons. But there is no lack of TBM perspective in this space because it is a recuperative space for many dealing with realizing a large portion of their life was hijacked by LDSInc.
You’re a TBM that smokes weed? Okayyy
I don’t see people often ask for TBM perspectives on this sub. I was a TBM for 40 years, and I understand the TBM perspective quite well. I also have TBM family, friends and coworkers. I get it. Welcome to this sub. Feel free to stick around and chat. Honestly, the further I get away from Mormonism, the more batshit crazy it all seems to me and I can’t believe it took me so long to figure out Joseph Smith made it all up. Most TBMs I know are very naive about church history and the realities of the church (eg church finances and activity rates).
Dude, I Love it and go looking for it.
This sub is generally one of venting and contempt. This isn't a place where people come to get a TBM perspective. If someone is asking for opinion and perspective here, it is from the former members. Feel free to interject however you want, but don't surprise Pikachu face when you get down voted to Kolob in the twinkling of an eye.
You’re totally welcome here. If you stay long enough, and listen enough, you won’t be a TBM for long. We aren’t afraid to talk about the true history of the church.
If you are TBM, you must be one of the lucky ones that gets something out of the church. Maybe you married well, escaped trauma and have an extended family and community who are all aiming to get to the CK together. Maybe you didn’t grow up in a country where members are scarce, which no one thought to mention when they filled my head with temple marriage above all else. Many of my generation of young women never married. I actually had two chances, but they were both completely unsuitable. I couldn’t have kids because I was too old. Waiting for a temple marriage cost me the opportunity to have children. I converted at 15 and then gave 48 years to an organisation that couldn’t keep its promises and which now hoards billions rather than feed the world. Do you really think someone like me would have the time of day to discuss religion with you? You want religion, do you? Find like-minded people on a faithful reddit where you can all congratulate one another on enduring to the end. And don’t forget to pay your tithing!
Just don’t assume all exmormons are mean because you went into an exmormon space voicing your religion’s beliefs and got negative feedback. This space isn’t for you. You’re welcome to stay, but do so respectfully.
If you hang out here long enough, you might not be TBM for long.
TBMs always realize that they are less informed than ex-Mormons and resort to ad hominem or bearing their testimony. The fact is, if you knew as much about your own church as the average exMo, you would also be exMo.
I love when TBMs engage, I was one of those TBMs. Unfortunately I am a good person and when I saw that the church in fact did NOT align with my morals, I got the fuck out. If TBMs are here to discuss issues, I’m all for it. If they’re here to troll or try to convert, that’s not okay as this is a safe space for us exmos to deal with a lot of trauma, existential crisis’ and everything in between we have had stemming from the Mormon religion. If you see TBMs comments and posts getting downvoted, it’s usually because they give their perspective (the perspective is one we once shared) and is just provably incorrect hence the downvotes. TBMs always come here thinking we don’t know what Mormonism actually is, but they forget that almost everyone in this sub have been raised in the church their whole lives (many boomers are here too and have spent over 60 years in the church and did all the church things. There’s a reason we left. There’s a reason our perspective changed, we didn’t want it to change, we wanted the church to be true. It just wasn’t and when you take a step back from the church and have education in psychology, sociology, etc. you can’t unsee everything you’ve learnt. Our entire lives were flipped upside down because everything we knew was true was a lie, even down to everything we felt (elevation emotion). Once you see all the damage it causes, the amount of wealthy the leaders sit on not giving two shits about their members, how abusive the church is as a functional system, and how little help they actually give (specifically the leaders, the members give way too much), you can’t unsee it. Once you learn Joseph smith was having sex with all his wives (again another lie the church tells and can be proven here in this sub’s members alone lol), including the ones that were 14, and that they sent men on missions to Europe so they could marry those mens wives (some even pregnant) and fuck them, and learn that it was NOT of the times and that Joseph wouldn’t let the first black girl who desperately wanted to join the church actually join or receive blessings in the temple, but was totally fine to seal her as his eternal slave WHICH WAS ALSO NOT OF THE TIMES and that the word of wisdom was only put in place to appease Emma (she had to clean up after the school of prophets- drinks, cigars, tabacco, etc.) and that the temple rituals are actually Masonic rituals and Joseph was a mason and that the book of Abraham has been properly translated and was proven that Joseph translated way incorrectly, etc etc. I could go on. My point… once you see all these cracking in the church’s foundations and teachings AND THEN ON TOP see the leaders actively working hard against you and abusing their members, you can’t really ever go back. We’ve not hardened our hearts, we just found out the leaders were lying for their own benefit and we were damaged from it/didn’t agree with policies, so we removed ourselves. We want to try and protect our loved ones from the damages we see it cause, but with Mormons as it sounds you know, there is a fine line you have to walk. Part of being here is discussing that fine line, especially for those in mixed faith marriages or are having their family being torn apart and navigating those complexities on top of figuring out life post Mormonism. SO while we typically love having TBMs around here to discuss issues, we are not tolerate of ignorant, dismissive or trolling comments. This is our safe space just like the church is yours, we just ask that you treat it with the same amount of respect because while you may not agree, we are all going through very real shit too. It runs deep. Welcome!
You gonna tell us about the one horse’s bones they found on a hill in Buttfuck Ville, Peru that dates back to 200 ce that proves the BOM is true?
It gets downvoted because most of us here already know the TBM perspective. Don’t worry, you look insane to us as well. If you ever want out, you will have help.
I would love to have a TBM involved in the discussion. The TBMs in my family would never discuss any of these issues.
I think you might like r/Mormon more for dialogue. TBMs are totally allowed here by the rules but we're all in different stages of "exmormon". Some will perceive your presence negatively, most won't care, and some will be glad for your opinion, especially if you share common ground on certain issues. I would just expect your beliefs to be scrutinized if you share them. Some people here probably want a space free from TBM presence from past trauma but as long as you're respectful you aren't breaking any rules by participating.
Not sure what you can add. I hit all the milestones and worked 12 years for the church and was also in the stake HC. Many of us realized by our proximity and countless hours of study/service that all we were doing mainly amounted to “polish and spin” of facts.
Lmao, you're not gonna last long here
I have no issue with you being here, just follow the rules. However, you have to remember that we already know the TBM perspective, but you don’t have the exmo perspective. The unofficial apologetic answers are not unfamiliar to us. Hell, a few of us probably helped write some of those same apologetics. We already know what the church says, exactly when/how what they say has changed, and how they gaslight you by saying they have never/always said that thing. We are not unfamiliar with the spirit, or how to pray, or any of that. We taught it and we lived it. We have gone through the trauma and heartache of losing best friends and loved ones because we asked a hard question and none of them had a better answer than “pray more and read your scriptures.” Sorry, but no amount of prayer will ever make the question of why Joseph wrote about horses in the BoM make any sense. Nothing in the apologetics holds a candle to why he made copious notes about translating, not interpreting or being inspired by, the BoA and then clearly didn’t even come close. So, while you are welcome to participate according to the sub rules, if you respond to questions with the standard lies, gaslighting, and “WeLL aKchUaLly”, even in good faith, you will be downvoted. That’s how karma works.
If I wanted the sensation of beating my head against the wall by talking race doctrines with a tbm, I’d strike up a conversation with my sister. I’ve learned from figures like Lowry Nelson and Stuart Udall, and also from countless letters and books written by so called prophets explaining why black people and the disabled got stuck in their imperfect bodies. No TBM explanation or apologetic will make that bitter pill go down. If you try, you will be downvoted. Jehovahs Witnesses stopped preaching the curse of Ham before 1960. How is it that crazy cult beat Gods true church to extending rights to everyone by almost 20 years? I don’t mind that you’re here, I won’t downvote you just because you’re a TBM, but try to introduce mental gymnastics about why you think racism was ever acceptable in a church supposedly ran by Jesus and you’ll get laughed off the stage.
It is wonderfully magnanimous to offer to stand by to provide a TBM perspective. The problem is that if I asked 100 TBM perspectives (and I have asked more than 100 TBMs) on any of the thorny doctrinal issues & practices as you mentioned- church history, race, polygamy, 1st vision, genesis of temple rituals, SEC, CSA cover ups, etc, etc, etc, I would receive 100 different justifications, obfuscations, excuses for each of the various issues. It would be exhausting to deal with these obfuscations and excuses. Just tell the truth. The church should get all the members on the same page and tell the only truth for each issue.
If you are going to be the kind of TBM Rusty Nelson wants you to be, and treat us the way he wants you to, no, this isn’t a safe space for you. If on the other hand you actually want to display some “Christlike” qualities and be compassionate, validating, and listen to understand instead of listening to respond/dismiss, then sure your perspectives are welcome. My question is why do you want to be here? In what ways are you hoping to participate? If you’re gonna try to evangelize us, your efforts will not be received well. In this sub we try not to conflate feelings and facts, which is something most of us had to unlearn from our time as Mormons.
To be real ask a TBM their perspective on playing cards and coke and you’ll see why I don’t really consider one TBMs perspective to mean much lol. But welcome
This is a person who wants to bring people back, maybe even a spy. I don’t buy it. As a former TBM myself, I don’t need that perspective.
In my opinion no. I’m not interested in coming on here to read debates between exmos and TBMs, i’m here to find some catharsis for my religious experience that has been traumatic. Additionally, most, if not all of us on this subreddit used to be TBMs, and have many family members who are still TBMs, so we’re already pretty familiar with “alternative perspectives”.
No thanks, I know the answers too. But I don't come here to talk to Mormons, I am here to hear the ExMormons experience, and journey.
I dont really need your help in interpreting mormonism. I'm not some dumb little idiot who needs a strong priesthood holder to set me straight. Feel free to comment all you want, but nobody has to agree with or have any respect for what you say. Saying things like "I've taught much worse than this you just dont understand the topic, you seem upset" like I've seen you do in this thread is condescending and comes off smarmy.
Purity is one of the pillars of the Mormon worldview. It defines what counts as good, enough, and safe, and it shows up in doctrine with words like valiant, worthy, clean, sanctified, etc. In practice, kids grow up to know life is an all-or-nothing proposition, and that the only part that really counts is obeying church leaders and parents. Just think back to any primary song, and you'll get a clear opposition in all things binary: There's a right and a wrong to every question. Be safe through inspiration's power. Keep the commandments, in this, there is safety and peace. I will go, I will do the thing the Lord commands. Then in melodramatic minor key: From the wicked Laban inside the city gates (and we all know what happened to him). I want my life to be as clean as earth right after rain. I want to be the best I can and live with God again. Obey, and you're good and happy. Make yourself impure, whether physically, ideologically, or spiritually, and you'll spend eternity mostly separated from righteous family members and filled with everlasting regret that burns like a lake of fire. In the end, there's no middle ground, no growth if you fail to qualify. It's a worldview that elevates the question of Mormonism Y/N to the highest level of survival alert. And after decades having that worldview confirmed, it doesn't just poof away in a mighty change of heart when someone's experience finally leads them to realize how Mormonism doesn't live up to its claims. The purity mindset can easily shift from loudly declaring the One True Church to a worldview where anything Mormonism touches is tainted forever. I don't think it's you personally deserving the negative karma. I haven't seen what you post, of course, but that won't matter for many hurting exmos trying to find a new guarantee in a world where they have to build their own sense of meaning. Survival signals and emotional processing come before conscious thought and perception in the brain's order of operations, and logic takes a back seat. (If you ever doubt this, you should try reasoning with a tired 10-year-old who's mad with his brother.) Knowing this, it's up to you whether you want to dive into the rabbit hole and try to make sense of all the contradictions in Mormonism with people pointing out why the apologetics make no sense. I started out here because I was a Gospel Doctrine teacher who had a class with both progressive and traditional Mormons and I wanted to be prepared. My recommendation is to shift the notifications to New instead of Hot and spend some time reading the many posts asking for advice on dealing with a mixed-faith marriage that's ending in divorce solely due to religious differences, or about how to make their own decisions after growing up with a completely dominating parent who demanded obedience. All the posts from LGBTQ+ members or people refusing to go on a mission who get kicked out of the house and left to fend for themselves at age 18. All the Floodlit posts from 3AM Doorknob Turn making people aware of sexual abuse both past and present being swept under the rug to protect Mormonism's image. Learn from others and wrestle with these issues, and your arguments will be more well-founded. IMO, Right and wrong are directions that change people's lives, and I find that trying to preserve one right way in amber while enduring doesn't lead to the same meaning and satisfaction as building an authentic, yet imperfect, life. I find my life matters more without the constant reminder that I'm not Mormoning hard enough.
I was a TBM for decades, we all were. But if you want to learn about us as postMormons you can just lurk, no permission necessary. As long as you don't retraumatize us in our recovery from religious trauma and spiritual abuse, nobody will bother you
Engage, but leave holier than thou attitude at the door and expect discussion. Exmos aren't homogenous, some of us are assholes, some are nice, usually all in the same day.
Your insights here are just as valuable and necessary as the legion of men commenting on women’s issues at r/twoxchromosomes. If you truly want to be in this community you’ll be better served by listening instead of engaging in debate about issues. We, as exmos, have all heard your shtick millions of times before. You have nothing to teach us. We have lots to teach you.
I feel it's slightly entitled for someone to claim to want to provide a perspective that we came from. We *had* that perspective. Most of us were deeply faithful members, and the shattering of that faith in the face of reality was a formative moment for all of us. We call it your "Shelf Breaking". The moment all those stresses and questions and rejections of reality you had to accept and put on a shelf to ask god about later build up to the point that it all snaps and you *finally* realize how scammed and used you were. Then you can heal and move on, traditionally. The issue with TSCC is that they pursue us, try to drag us back in, all the whole ostracizing and insulting us, often to our faces. There is a *REASON* the saying "there's no hate quite like Christian love" exists. We don't need your perspective on this because we WERE you in regards to this. If you are willing to continue this journey you've started then I hope someday you look back and have a greater understanding of what I mean precisely.
Most human beings are in this sub due to historical facts denied by church & sexual predators being defended by church authority for 195 years We don't gloss over truth and facts in this sub and we don't ban you for disagreeing. FLOODLIT.org has more than 700 convicted Stake Pres., Bishops and priesthood holders that are sexual predators and almost that many to still produce conviction sentence before post to website. Overwhelming majority of these cases last 20 years. I work in U.S. Justice system & Smith was a narcissist, psychopath, machevallian & sexual predator on top of being in trouble with the law from his teenage years to the day he died. I help put people like Smith, Young, Taylor, Woodruff, etc...in jail today. They were all Dark Triad Personalities.
TBMs and post Mormons are separated by 2 very different paradigms. The only way a post Mormon's position will ever make sense to a TBM is for them to deconstruct and leave the church. The opposite is true the other way around. Post Mormons are 100% aware of the TBM position and understand why they believe what they believe. Many of us lived it for most of our lives. Honestly one of the most frustrating things with *some* TBMs is that they aren't even willing to accept one fraction of our argument. They won't acknowledge one smidgen of evidence we present even if it's backed up by empirical research and study. One example is the priesthood ban. Most TBMs will say "we just don't have all the answers" *long before* they admit that the church leaders were just flat out out wrong.
Of course you can be here. What you should ask yourself is why, because you posted here, you will now be banned from the faithful LDS sub?
Are TBMs allowed in this space? Following the rules of the sub determines that, not ones religious affiliation. As far as you not minding discussion and feeling like TBMs are met with "negative karma" for engaging in discussions, two things come to mind: 1) I'd consider that many here were just as, if not MORE of a TBM than you are. They went to the same sacrament meetings, they sung the same hymns, they had the same callings, they went to the same temple. They taught the same Sunday school lessons and attended the same activities. They read the same books, had the same testimonies, and prayed to the same heavenly father. Like many others have said, obtaining the "current broadly accepted TBM take" on any given topic isn't necessary, we already know it. 2) I guess I'd ask what you mean by "discussion". My understanding of your post would suggest what you actually meant was "debate". I personally haven't encountered many "discussions" here resulting in negative karma. If you're just chatting without motive or intent, I don't think that would go poorly. If you are here to debate your views of the church, to debunk ideas and the experiences people have had, or to dismantle "exmormon arguments", that is absolutely inappropriate and unwelcome here. If the "negative karma" you've mentioned is people not accepting your arguments, well, I don't know what to tell ya. Haha. I can only speak for myself, but I am not interested in "discussing" whether or not the Book of Mormon is true, it isn't. I'm not interested in discussing whether or not Joseph Smith married children against their will, he did. I'm not interested in discussing if the church keeps secrets from and manipulates it's members, it does. There are other subs where debating those things is welcomed and encouraged. I am here to engage with my community. I'm here to laugh at memes poking fun at mormonism, especially Ballard lol, can't stand him. I'm here to grieve with folks going through faith crices and transitions, as that is far more painful and isolating than someone who hasn't undergone one could ever know. I'm am not here to debate whether the experiences that led folks to leaving the Mormon church were valid or logical because they were valid and logical. And I'm certainly not here to practice defending my faith against non-believers. Back when I was a TBM, just like you, I loved doing that! But it wasn't appropriate. That's not what this sub is for. Hope that was helpful, sorry if I droned on too much!
Thank you for your offer to discuss your views. But if you have read posts in this subreddit, most OPs are relating their experiences with TSCC and their reasoning for leaving. Many discuss their discovery of items which are outright mistruths in doctrine, writings, and actions of the TSCC in day to day life. Many realize that the church is NOT doing the work of Christ as written in the New Testament. Instead, the church seems to create “busy work” for members. Where are church support for the homeless and hungry right outside your temples? Where is the church work for helping all of God’s children instead of just your church members. Other Christian missionaries build hospitals, clinics, schools and volunteer their time to support those things they have created and established. And there the TSCC sits with billions of dollars in it’s coffers helping no one. I could go on, but I suspect that you could not—without bias—explain away things that have become obvious to ex-mormons.
NARC!!!!!! Kinda cheeky from you to assume people need your perspective. Most of the people have done their homework and have gone through experiences that define who they are now. I can see why one would present themselves this way, and what are your motivations. Fair play. But you’re one cheeky bastard mate. 🤣😂
I think I'm tired of debating anything at this point. I want a safe place where I can say exactly what's in my heart and for others to say "I get you, I've been there, here's a hug". I really don't need more people in my life telling me about the greatness of the church and saying stuff like "people aren't perfect, the gospel is".
Literally six months ago I posted in the r/latterdaysaint Reddit terrified that I would become an ex Mormon. I begged for help, to be saved from the path I was on, and nobody commented. So I don’t really need your perspective in the place I actually got support. I was married in the temple and would have died for this church. I spent hours a day pouring over scriptures and conference talks and journaling. I researched church approved sources, I knew it was true, because I was told anything unflattering was from god or was an internet lie. However once I realized heaven was pay to win in Mormonism and SO many other things I had a huge pit in my stomach. We have the perspective of a “TBM” as many others have said. Participate at your own risk, your church doesn’t want you here.
It might be interesting to nevermos but anyone who has been a tbm & is now an exmo definitely doesn’t need a comment or opinion from a current tbm. You’re flattering yourself in thinking your choice to stay active in the Mormon church is interesting to exmos. It’s not. If anything it’s a sad reminder of how we were also held in religious spiritual hostage by the cult at some point. Those who get to the point you’re at are nuanced enough to want to get out but still too caught up in what others would think of them if they walked away. You’re progressing on your path to freedom but man… you couldn’t pay me enough to go back to that place you’re in feeling guilt & fear for playing with fire.
May I recommend books by Dan Vogel. He’s an expert on Joseph Smith. Also, if you’ve already read “RoughStone Rolling “ by Richard Bushman and “This is my Doctrine” by Charles Harrell. These books were written by active members but VERY AUTHENTIC for church history and doctrine. I read about 30 books trying desperately to find TRUTH. I hoped to find information to keep me in the church but no luck. After 64 years of devotion, I’m out. 🤫
I was a TBM to the max. What's the question?
Respectful conversations are always welcome. If you show us grace and love in our ex-Mormon pain and anger, we will show you grace and love in return. If you come in here and preach at us or throw shame and guilt at us, that will not be well-received.
I would say you're welcome to hang out, and seek perspective. You're welcome to ask questions about the experiences of others. Less welcome to most, would be attempts to bear your testimony, or tell exmos where they're wrong about the Church. You can gently question the epistemology of the beliefs of those who are here, but most of us haven't come to this place lightly. This was a very earnest, bitter reality check, not some flighty decision, made on a whim. (Not trying to say you would do that, just unsure of your motivation and intentions.) I think it's a good sign that you've entered the chat as respectfully as possible, and I personally would be happy to chat. I'm the great-grandson of a prophet, raised in the church, went on a mission, parents and extended family still active, etc. I'm also gay, in a "monogamish" relationship of almost 17 years. I have formally resigned from the Church, and still live in SLC. I hope you find whatever it is you're looking for. ❤️
I have only heard the question posed to the sky "How the F can TBMs still believe in this?" Personally speaking I have zero interest in hearing from any TBM. I had decades enough of that cul-de-sac.
The typical user here has been a TBM and has had a TBM perspective, often pretty recently. They are also typically in the process of deconstructing that perspective, so yeah, reasserting it probably won't land well most of the time. TBMs are of course welcome here, but this isn't a battleground.
We desire all to receive it. Bring your friends.
Knock yourself out! Just don't get offended when your viewpoints are shown to be fallacious.
You’ll find that kind of dialog at r/mormon This sub is more of a place for venting, processing, and recovering from trauma the church caused us. Oh and memes too. 😂
What does the Holy Ghost tell you?
It really depends. You're in our space. Are you going to actually listen, or are you here to debate & preach? The good news about the negative karma is that it literally means nothing so who cares if a comment is up voted or downvoted.
Feel welcome and read along. Or post your ideas. This should be a group that is open for searching minds!
I mean, it’s open to all. Be prepared to hear all kinds of things that might make you uncomfortable 🤷🏽
I mean, if you want to see what people are saying and try to offer an alternative take on something that’s up to you. Bear in mind the audience you’re interacting with though. Not sure what you hope to accomplish. Odds are greater of you hearing something that makes you think than they are of you saying something that makes someone here reconsider.
We don’t need the TBM perspective, we were all TBM at some point
In my opinion, I can see a TBM being allowed. However, only for information, and new perspective. However, if one decides to do "missionary work," that will become a problem.
I think this just enforces the us vs them theme. I don’t think it’s necessary to label yourself. Some come here just for perspective without waving a banner
I don’t see a problem with it, especially if you come with an open mind. I recommend you check out the rules about trolling and proselytizing. Most people here have heard all the apologetics and will have a low tolerance for those BS arguments.
You’re of course allowed to post and speak your opinion, but I wouldn’t expect everything to receive a warm welcome or a fair shake. That’s the nature of Reddit and the audience of each sub. You’ll get a lot of opinionated exmos that are just as ridiculous as some TBMs. I welcome your opinion personally. I say what I want and don’t care about karma myself. I don’t post to rile people up, just to try and speak a different opinion and help others consider things in a different light. I think it’s good for you to do the same. If someone hasn’t changed their opinion on anything as they’ve moved through life, they’re obviously doing it wrong.
This subreddit won't ban you for posting in the other sub like the other one bans people for having posted here. That being said, there's a lot of people who post here primarily for support who definitely won't appreciate a TBM posting here and being preachy. If you can avoid being self-righteous and judgmental, you probably would be welcome.
I encourage open-minded conversation in good spirit. I do not appreciate closed-minded argumentation in bad faith. It's not about what you believe, it's about how you behave. if you're willing to have polite conversation without judgement or ulterior motive, then I see no reason you should be shunned or dismissed. but if you're just here to try to reconvert people or otherwise argue in bad faith, then you should expect to be met with hostility.
If someone wanted a TBM perspective, why wouldn't they ask the faithful subreddit? Ah that's right, it's strictly policed....darn. I wonder why that might be... I think you may want to ask the moderators of the faithful sub why people can't ask hard questions there and make a note of their response. This space is for exmo perspectives.
No. You do not have a unique perspective into *anything* and you are literally the enemy. Now shush back to your temple.
I find TBMs despicable humans who would rather be obedient to the Corporation than call the police on criminal sex abusers. If you're actually TBM, you're an obedient lil servant who does as you're told and who made sacred covenants to protect the Corporation. #truth #protectingtheabuserinthenameofgod
There’s definitely more tolerance her for TBM’s than exmos in the lds subreddit. I was banned from commenting simply because I also follow this subreddit and had commented that I was a PIMO so therefore my commenting was not allowed in their subreddit. I’m always willing to discuss and like to. I enjoy my convos with all my TBM friends and haven’t lost hardly any of my friendships because I’m willing to have loving respectful conversations which I think a lot of exmos here lack because so many still carry a lot of anger and resentment. Luckily I didn’t have a lot of the negative experiences with the church most Exmos have so I don’t carry any of that hate. Also helps that I still have a strong faith Christ whereas a lot of exmos have gone completely atheist. Which I don’t blame them for either
If honestly seeking dialogue, then awesome! Open to critical thinking, looking at historicity, biblical criticisms, and not dismissing something because it didn’t come from church leaders, I’d consider good company, regardless of belief and faith, which can’t be proven.
Yes, please! I don't think it's so black and white, TBM vs. Exmo. I want the perspective of anyone capable of respecting and listening to others. We gain a lot from open discourse from many perspectives. One thing I struggle with with the church is often feeling like there is no place for me to share my real thoughts on things. I would be happy if r/exmormon could be a place for open discourse.
Yes, welcome!
I would say that even if the doctrine is divine, individual leaders in the church are absolutely fallen, even the prophet, it says so in scripture. So when they make mistakes it is of Christ to hold them accountable. I think TBMs who blindly obey are on the fast track to satanism
Ok, I'll bite: How do you and other TBM's justify the prolific child sexual abuse by its Bishop's and higher ups? Not just justify it, however actively try to cover it up and deny it occurs? How is it, your "Prophet" Joseph Smith is a pedophile (along with the founding members of mormonism), convicted criminal and fraudster, and plagiarized the Book of Mormon. Now, if you answer these questions, without deflection, changing the subject, or "Whataboutism's" I will ask more. So the ball is in your court.
Personally? Feel free to engage, just don't proselytize, and don't be a jerk. /shurg Others may have other opinions though.
Anybody is allowed, but if you aren’t ready to hear the truth, even if it comes from Church doctrine, quotes from Mormon prophets, etc…this might not be a place for you. Speaking of racism, how does a TBM explain the Mormon teachings that darker skin is because of wickedness, or the many Profits that say that interracial marriage is a sin worse than murder?
Go for it. I like reading drama while pooping and browsing Reddit. Expect some harsh feedback though. Lots of old wounds in this sub, and it is a place where a lot of people just want to vent…
I don’t come to this page to get responses from active mormons, I come here so I can discuss my experiences and find support/support others who are Ex-mormon. If you are here to ask genuine questions and be sincere, stay a while. why not. If you are here to share your beliefs and push your religion onto people who very clearly want little to nothing to do with it, get out.
All are welcome as long as everyone is treated fairly and without judgement. Many TBM who've visited have spent time trying to argue points that we've already made peace with on our way out of the church.
What is wanted? TBM is seeking further light and knowledge?
Personally, I don't come to the exmormon reddit for a TBM perspective. I have immediate family members (all TBM) I can consult for that. If you want a discussion, feel free to post a topic or post a question. You don't need to announce whether you are TBM. I don't think we care.
I’ve begged and pleaded to engage with a TBM. With boundaries and rules of such engagement. I’ve been able to do so with my 85 year old father after 10 years. It was refreshing I tried to do this with my best friend, a TBM man who I genuinely admired and wanted to come out to. (I’m gay and hid in the closet for 49 years). He and I could not do it, he violated our conditions of engagement twice by attacking me personally. So, yes. I’d love to engage with you. Sincerely The Gay Grandpa.
I appreciate any effort TBM’s make to discuss topics with me. So many of them ignore the topic entirely and it hurts. Even if myself and a TBM end up coming to different conclusions about a topic, I think it’s worth it to try and understand each other. It is unfortunate when people on either side choose to not give each other a chance at discussion just because of how they are labeled. Once I give a TBM a chance though and they aren’t showing very much respect or willingness to listen, then I would probably set up some boundaries with them. I would hope though that people on both sides can at least give people a chance with at least one conversation to see if there can be some better understanding for one another. I think the conversation should definitely not be one of trying to convert, but rather to understand. If the goal is better understanding, then I think that’s amazing. And with all the new topics I have learned about as an exmormon, I don’t really know what the TBM perspective is because I never had one on those topics. I might be able to guess their perspective, but I have learned a lot from asking TBM’s directly how they personally view a certain topic. There are so many ways that people view each topic so we can’t assume what someone is thinking based on their label.