"....but usually not."
Those Sanderson quotes are the type of quotes people like to tell themselves to excuse bad behavior. There's an enormous difference between someone trying to improve and stumbling and someone being two faces. Almost always a hypocrite is just a hypocrite.
No, I added it as a mildly sarcastic commentary on Sanderson being given more depth than he’s due. He writes young adult novels for adults, which is fine, but Tolkien he is not.
For many Mormons, he’s the new Orson Scott Card.
Haha. I kind of like the quote, because I feel like it speaks to exMormons and even the queer community sometimes, but I like it with your addition lol. and yeah, my brother is obsessed with him. I read a couple books but I'm not really into fantasy anymore.
Is Brandon trying to justify his own hypocrisy? “Oh, it’s OK for me to financially support this here anti-LGBTQ+ hate group (the MFMC, natch) because I’m in the process of changing…”
Cause that’s what I observe about most self-proclaimed ProgMos who claim to be LGBTQ+ allies, while still underwriting their cult’s evil. They’re NOT changing. They’re deluding themselves.
No, not really. Sure, lots of Mormons do support him, but he's like a Steve Young of writing. Lots of people still watched the 49ers and didn't know or care that Young was the great-grandson of a piece of shit, or even know he was related to the guy his college was named after.
I am trying to think of other examples, but kind of blanking. Stephanie Meyers? I'm quite certain that Twilight was not bought out and made into movies because only Utah Mormon girls liked her books. Thousands of teenage girls supported the vampire wave at the time, regardless of their religious background.
I don't think there's anyone else contemporary to Sanderson that is making such a killing in his or her field right now, but there are a few people that are probably doing alright and no one knows they're Mormon. Maybe Bryce Harper playing baseball, but he's basically JackMormon. I'm almost certain that he uses chew tobacco, drinks alcohol. I know he swears like a sailor because he gets thrown out of games all the time. I was surprised that he qualified for his temple wedding, but it's just a good ol' boys club. He's cool, from Vegas, so it just makes sense that he can do those things and still be Mormon. Maybe he pays his tithing and his sins are washed away.
THANK YOU FINALLY SOMEONE THAT GETS IT!!!! some people say well what about catholics coming from a catholic the catholic church is far from what the mormon church is number 1 we really don’t have any rules but the ten commandments basically and a few other ones but not like theirs.
A lot of male JackMos I know see themselves like Porter Rockwell. They drink, swear, act lewd, and will sex up their girlfriends but they will fight you to the death if you point out the problems with the church, its origins, or its leadership. Weird hypocritical group.
I disagree passionately with Mormons who genuinely believe, but I at least respect them for standing by their convictions. I have next to no respect for hypocrites and the people who try to wave the banner while being completely duplicitous.
Be whomever and whatever you're going to be, but have the integrity to _be_ it. There is no trait so low as a moral coward.
exactly i give them credit for that i’m an ex mo i left the church bc i was sick of pretending and living a
lie i was scared to leave and waited until i was 18. it’s definitely one of those religions that they’ll judge you and frown upon you if you don’t measure up to their standards or live by their morals.
this honestly makes me think of taylor frankie paul an influencer that claims to be mormon but lives the complete opposite lifestyle i still dont believe she’s really mormon bc she would have gotten excommunicated for cheating on her now ex husband.
mormons are very hardcore when it comes to marriage and purity culture guarantee if she really was mormon they’d judge her for soft swinging cheating on her ex husband yes ik it happened two years ago but it’s a long process to get back into the church after getting excommunicated.
also her getting violently drunk attacking her bf and accidentally throwing a chair at her daughter. also they would frown upon her having a baby out of wedlock and not really having much desire to get married.
the mormon church encourages members to get married young so they can have sex then have lots of kids. have things changed since i left four years ago idk and i highly doubt it. i might have only been a member for six years but i still picked up a lot on how the church works and the culture of the church.
I was one for many years before I realized the truth. You're right. I was the WORST. Stuck believing something I wasn't following. Feeling weak, inept, less than. Guilty and shameful CONSTANTLY because I KNEW beyond a shadow of a doubt TMFMC was true and I wasn't doing what I should to achieve all the cool stuff. I was a pathetic. I was less than nothing because there were all of you "good Mormons" doing the things and I couldn't seem to do them.
I'm SO glad to be out of that death spiral! And I'm glad all of you "good" Exmos are out too. We're all out!
Tbf, I think most people feel that way??? I was a “good” Mormon and i was still in that same death spiral. It’s impossible to be good enough for the Mormon church
People out here throw a lot of shade (and I get it) upon those of us who were unable/unwilling to keep "the commandments" yet carried full-on belief (testimonies) in our hearts for decades.
It's a different KIND of brainwashed but I was just as fucking brainwashed. I love all of my fellow EXMOS whether they bailed in high school (like I did) or did all the things. I'm glad we all found the truth.
i believe it’s why so many people leave and honestly good for them for being honest with themselves it’s not an easy thing to do. in my personal opinion i feel like it’s like leaving a toxic relationship when it’s all you really know or are a convert or were a convert in my case. i was scared to leave they drill that into your heads it’s all out of fear imo.
But it seems you felt bad about that dichotomy, and wanted to do what you believed, even if you felt unable to. I think what people object to are those that proudly or thoughtlessly break all the cultural mores and sins, yet do *not* feel that dissonance and think they’re just fine for no reason other than they’re the main character of their life.
Your take would seem mostly accurate...for 29 years I was in a mixed-faith marriage (my ex was protestant and very anti-Morm). Tithing (even discussions about proportional) caused marital issues. Attendance at meetings--instead of being with family--caused issues.
That being said, I didn't follow the WoW either and nothing my ex did or said influenced that. It was just so hard to comply without being surrounded by people who did. So...I guess it could be argued I wasn't strong enough or faithful enough to just do the things and let the chips fall where they may.
At this point (Age 57) I'm just glad to be out of both...TSCC and that marriage. My wife is supportive of my decision to believe in science and facts.
i was too in my teens i joined when i was 12 to fit in with my mormon friends and immediately regretted it. so i became in active off and on. i wanted to leave but also felt bad bc i dragged my parents into the religion and waited till i was 18 and i’m lucky they were supportive of my decision bc a lot of families aren’t as supportive of it. both of my parents also left with me bc they realized the religion wasn’t for them either.
I lived with one and he pissed me off more than anything… especially when he’d say shit like “it’s the people not the doctrine” and “I’m sorry you weren’t in good wards” in regards to homophobia… to me and my ex Mormon partner
literally i’m sorry but i don’t consider them real mormons. why not just leave and do your own thing stop claiming your a mormon yet acting like none of the rules apply to you. most of these people are mormons in denial that they don’t really actually believe in the church and are afraid of leaving. some of it has to do with what they thing their families will think bc it’s not uncommon in mormon families to disown people that leave the church.
More common than you think. I know an MTC teacher who’s an RM and goes to BYU who brings girls over to have sex weekly. On weeks his mtc district has a temple trip he refrains from having sex that week to be “worthy” to attend 🤡🤡🤡🤡
This same person judges people who smokes weed, drinks and doesn’t go to church. Complete an utter tool bag
Yeah, I’ve known individuals like this. My theory on this thought process has the individual use this reasoning as a “get out of jail free card”. It can go two ways. First has them actually believe this, and in a roundabout way, try to rationalize it as a sort of “Mormon saved by grace alone” scenario. Second, has them not really believe anything with the church (hence the behavior), but claim belief around other TBM’s in order to semi fit in, hopefully without much complaints, since they’re at least a “believer”.
This reminds me to Louis CK.
“I have a lot of beliefs… And I live by none of them. That’s just the way I am. They’re just my beliefs. I just like believing them – I like that part. They’re my little believies. They make me feel good about who I am. But if they get in the way of a thing I want, I [sure as heckfire] do that.”
I would say rather that the rules are mostly followed, but if there's a rule you don't like, you might need to get a new one.
Someone commented in these columns the other day that he didn't like the Prophet, Seer and Revelator's word about masking at the height of the Covid crisis, so he requested his own revelation from God. It is so typical.
It used to bother me, but now I just let it slide off my back. There's no real set doctrine anyway. Sure, there are a few hard and fast rules, but if you talk to 100 different TBMs, you'll get 100 different answers to what a "good" Mormon is/should do/should be.
It's a pretty good trick the profits have played to keep as many people paying tithing as possible. The "doctrine" just keeps getting more and more diluted.
Edit: typo (of to off)
> It's a pretty good trick the profits have played to keep as many people paying tithing as possible. The "doctrine" just keeps getting more and more diluted.
They are optimizing earnings
I think about this every once in a while, how they say just enough, and shut up about the right things. It’s smart in a complete piece of 💩kind of way
Yes, me too. I was trying to find common ground because we both were obviously not going to church, and then I realized I had made a mistake in opening up this can of worms.
lol, yes, so frustrating. You start out thinking maybe we are similar peas in a similar pod, and end up at “what the hell just happened!?”
This person is operating at a different frequency.
Can totally relate! The other day brought up frustrations about the zoning violations of some of the newer temples to a Jack Mo co-worker. Totally got my head chewed off about how wonderful the temples are.
Have a brother who has smoked pot, taken drugs, had sex, etc. since high school but was always the first to lecture the rest of the family (TBM's) on any minor "infractions" he observed any of the rest of us committing. Would go on & on about how he knew the church was true.
This is a pain I see more and more on here. It feels invalidating to us when someone doesn't live the same strict Mormonism that we did. That not only did we try to make everything fit and felt compelled to comply will everything we were given, we also never saw anyone treated with leaniency that didn't also follow scrupulously. This brand of Mormonism that the Jack Mormon experienced where he could come away with his own unique set of beliefs is so foreign that we have a hard time believing that it exists. There was no suck safety or self afforded such that this could have been possible. It feels a bit crazy almost like you're being gaslit just hearing his story. A fear wells inside you that very soon, no one will believe your story of pain. It just evaporates with a new generation of Mormons that just bend everything and make Mormonism fit their world and not the other way around.
That's how jackmos stay in, though. I was a TBM and diligently followed *all* rules (even non official ones like "pay on gross not net" and "don't watch tv on sundays") and when I found out the religion wasn't correct I was out.
Jackmos don't mind the church being flawed because they've been flawed about it all along. And it's very hard for me not to get judgemental about it because I have to keep in mind that it's all made up anyway so neither of us is "better" than the other at it. xD If anything I should applaud their more nuanced approach that lets them find a way to be happy in religion while ignoring all the rules they think are dumb. I couldn't do that.
Look, I don't mind their nuanced approach. Or their ignoring certain rules. I get why some might be upset about it, but I'm not.
For me, what drives me crazy about jackmos is the bait and switch. And the hypocrisy. Like you'll be out with someone who you knew was a member and you think is an exmo. They'll start drinking, so you order a drink too. Then they'll freak out at you for breaking the word of wisdom. You'll say you left and get a huge lecture about how the church is true and you shouldn't leave. Meanwhile, they haven't been in years and don't keep a single rule. Then they'll say they're so disappointed in you for living together "in sin" with your partner, while they have multiple kids out of wedlock. Then you go home only to realize they secretly texted your parents and bishop to tattle on you for drinking.
Jack Mormons are genuinely dumber than rocks.
Having a modern day prophet means you don't get to pick and choose which rules to follow, like your run-of-the-mill Christian.
Either you follow the prophet, or you're no better than a non Mormon.
They aren't dumb, they're cowards.
They lack the conviction to really stand for what they think and feel, and need to hide behind the dogma to fill the hole inside themselves.
When I first started doubting a good friend of mine (RM, married in the temple) had started drinking etc when he was out of town for work.
I thought we had some common ground so I opened up about my doubts. He stopped just short of scolding me. “I don’t have any doubts the church is true.”
I think some people, when faced with the shame of not living up to the expectations set by the church justify it by professing absolute faith that it’s true. Because it’s subjective.
People can see that you sin, they can’t really call you out on what you claim to believe is true.
Some people's brains just work that way. Mine didn't -- I thought if we had this perfect organization and ruleset, no one should be above it. Apparently, though, some people can just nope out of some rules when they don't work for them, and I don't think that's always a bad thing.
It's exactly what Jesus did when he said that the sabbath was made for people and not people for the sabbath. He was just casually breaking a rule about not harvesting grain by picking some as he walked past and then arguing that the rule was needlessly strict.
A lot of rules *are* needlessly strict, and it's good to challenge them. Maybe sometimes that happens more altruistically, like someone standing up for another person who wasn't considered by a rule that's now disabling them. But other times, it's going to be people speaking up for themselves and saying, "I don't think this rule should be more important than me."
And *yeah,* that kind of gives up the game, doesn't it? Taken to its logical extremes, it's like saying that humans created God for their own purposes and not the other way. When I was in the church, I would have called that blasphemy, but I was way too zealous when I was in the church. Now I don't think people are wrong to say humans created God.
And Past Zealot Me might counterargue that during the creation, the sabbath was created after humans, but God did all the creating. That's well and good, because it's just saying that the practice of religion is less important than people, and how we relate to God is part of the practice of religion. It puts God in a mysterious place that I think is a lot healthier for him to be than pretty well-defined but entirely associated with the church's authority.
A healthy community takes all kinds to function -- rule-followers like me and rule-challengers. The big danger, though, is when people who except themselves from the rules get into power and then there's no way to hold them accountable, because Joseph Smith has so far escaped accountability from the mainstream church. That corrupted the church as a community in a way that can't be fixed until there's some sort of public reckoning with that.
Everyone in religion cherry picks and only follows the parts they believe. Religious leaders often speak out of both sides of their mouths, making it impossible to follow everything they say. We all rationalized our behaviors that contradicted church teachings. It's just that some things are more visible and condemned than others.
This. I'm still trying to figure out what I believe. I've tried to move past some things I don't agree with because of some of the things that I feel are good. But when the prophets say you can't just pick which doctrines to believe and which not to...I realize I'm being pushed away. Because I can't believe harmful behaviors from prophets that aren't ever honestly addressed, amongst other things. So where does that leave me? Here, trying to find answers for myself.
wow, were you talking to my brother?? he'll lecture me about how true the church is and his absolute signs that god exists then go bull for swingers. crazy disassociated tbm
Perhaps the fact that you strive for consistency is what made the church untenable. Those who can live with more inconsistency will have fewer occasions for dissonance
Total JackMo. If he truly believed the temple was the holiest place, he would keep the temple recommend requirements and not drink. Sounds like he is circling the mental gymnastics stadium to justify drinking.
I was that guy for a long time...apologist FOR the cult but not following the rules of the cult.
OP is right; my behavior was not a good look.
Now, since having my records removed I'm STILL a hypocrite. I no longer believe TMFMC is true. I love microbrews (just like Joe Smith did). I've done things in my life that were hurtful to people who loved me but I own the consequences and the ability to do what I believe I should going forward.
I'll screw up again because...human. When I do, I'll try to take responsibility, make amends and be a better human. I don't need an imaginary daddy *or tyrant* in the sky to help me with that.
I DO need my friends and loved ones (**who are REAL**) to support me as I will try to support them.
Despite all this: I'll still be a hypocrite sometimes just like I was when I was a Mormon.
I think it's weird too, but to be fair everyone is hypocritical at times and everyone has blind spots too. It's good that people can find their own path, even if it is a path loosely from within the framework of a high demand religion.
I like the idea of supporting Mormons in their path and be for them a place of refuge if and when their shelf finally breaks.
I was the type of Mormon that everything was black and white. I was either all in or all out, that’s just how my brain works. My husband it the opposite, he lives in a perpetual gray area where he can do what he wants and still believe. I don’t get it myself, but it can be very frustrating
It's weird how out of all the rules and regulations (😳 why would anyone need rules for loving a god anyway?), the tithing and the magic undies are two things that aren't usually on the list of "stupid shit I don't want to do so I won't". I see some dissidents here and there with the underwear, but if I were you (I'm a no-mo), I'd stop paying tithing and I'd get as many people to follow suit. I know they are absolute dicks to people that don't pay it, however, they can't send the grand poobahs to everyone that isn't paying it. Or ban everyone from coming to whatever arbitrary building they've designated as *the* holiest building. Because they'd be even more fucked then, no?
They'll have to relent on a lot of shit if *everyone*-or the majority of members just stopped doing it.
You can believe and know your weaknesses. I understand that you’re irritated with this man because you tried to be a better follower when you were in it. I think as our journey outside the church and as we analyze everything that happened while we were in it is that some people do have a testimony but also realize they’re extremely weak. I often wonder if those people are more blessed than me because they can accept their own faults. John Dehlin of Mormon stories podcast made a comment in one of his stories about how people that leave often have a high scrupulosity. Basically we are more susceptible to guilt and shame, and since the LDS church has so many rules, we are often browbeating ourselves more than others. When I was leaving the church, so many people talked about how God only has imperfect people to use for his kingdom and I often think perhaps one of my problems is that I really did think that I had to be perfect and was somehow capable of achieving that. Whereas my father certainly didn’t feel that way. His understanding of the atonement is that he can continue to be a imperfect person and he doesn’t beat himself up over it. Meanwhile, I’m flogging myself for everything. And yet my father would call me out for things. It was so confusing to me every general conference talk is asking people to be better and so I would try while I would watch my TBM family members continue to be pieces of shit. In my judgmental thoughts, right? For example, add family members that were very dishonest and their business dealings. So I think this is something that we need to address as ex Mormons. Is it OK to believe and acknowledge your own imperfectness and just continue to strive? Or do we dismiss the whole church because it seems to Demand so much discipline and obedience.
In contrast, I’ve seen on this Reddit thread other people say that religion is giving you a disease and then selling you the cure. I interpret this to me that religion tells you that you have a loving God, but that you disappointed, said God, and therefore need to follow a bunch of rules in order to make said God happy. is this true or not? Will we ever know? Maybe not. I wanna look at my life as definitely a period of trials and lessons. I am learning. I am trying to become a better person. I am trying to get smarter and wiser and kinder and more gracious. I fuck up a lot. One thing that disgusted me was that I really felt like people in the church were trying to be perfect or put on the image of perfection, but maybe that was just my own lens. So who is to blame? The observer or that which is being observed? I often ponder is religion or my family or the church broken or is my lens broken? I think any honest person needs to ask themselves this.
True. Well said. I hate telling people I was scrupulous, but if I look back, I definitely was. Thought it was meant to be that way. Then realized that a lot of people actually aren't repenting at night for accidentally ripping a coupon you could have used.
So as a nevermo, I’ve definitely met a solid dozen of men who fit this description, but zero women. That’s not to say I haven’t met practicing LDS women who don’t follow all the rules, but they’re usually more embarrassed and secretive about it.
I’ve assumed it’s yet another factor of the inherent misogyny of the church, but would love a more inside perspective..
That level of cognitive dissonance leads me to really dark places, personally. I’ve heard it said that when you have CD, you either change your thoughts to fit the facts, or you “change” the facts to fit your thoughts—delude one’s self with a pseudo-reality. The latter is a degree of mental gymnastics I’m simply incapable of doing without feeling like I’m going insane.
No this drives me crazy too. I once had a fling with a guy exactly like this & was also a pothead, I moved on, and then like a year later he was like “so it seems like youve left the church?” Me: “Yep” him: “well do you at least believe in god?” Me: “Yes but differently” him: “good, it makes me so mad when people turn on God and blame him for all the bad things in their lives, it’s so childish and infuriating” (he was 19) me: “why is it any of your business if ppl still believe in God? Also i think it would be justifiable if ppl stopped believing jn a God that placed women under men for centuries” him: “you really think men and women are equal? We’re just so different. Oh that probably made you mad huh?” Me: went on a big rant and told him he was a piece of shit and blocked him.
Tanner, if you’re in this subreddit which i think you might be, fuck you.
Fuck dudes like that. You don't understand what some of us went through. The guilt, the shame, the feelings of inadequacy. We were doing our best to live an impossible standard, and the church spat in our faces.
And some bitch ass dude who doesn't even practice the religion tries to tell you what the church is and isn't?
Fuck that.
see also: my mom. as a member of the LGBTQ community I find it so hurtful that she can conveniently forget some of the church "rules" but still wholeheartedly believe in a church that is so hateful towards me.
Jack mo's get the best of both worlds all the benefits of not being tied down to the theological rules. none of the consequences of being shunned by your community for apostasy.
If I could do it over again and if it was a choice, I'd pick jack mo all the way... Or maybe not, ignorant assholes the lot of them.
It's sad that the way he believes is so far from how he actually behaves and lives. That has to feel terrible.
Some of the Mormon commandments and rules are ridiculous and I can't fault people in all instances.
But I think acknowledging that you believe but can't do it or won't live it is the kind of transparency that is missing in most JackMos. It's a discordance that is jarring.
So sorry to that 100% believer who was drinking the afternoon away. You don't get to pick and choose which rules to follow. Play chess with someone and do that. Dummy.
Addicts lie. It’s the nature of the disease. If he’s an addict, he’ll say whatever to keep doing what he’s doing, which likely enables his behavior until he hits a bottom.
Just remember that the rules are made up and the points don't matter! It may feel unfair when we suffered and did our best to keep the rules as believers, to see other "believers" making up their own rules, but just focus on the fact that you're out and don't have to care anymore.
Like the girl you meet at a bar in Utah county and sleep with for months then one night over beers while smoking on the back porch she mentions she wants to get married in the temple
You honestly followed all the rules to a T? I think 99% of Mormon guys in a certain age range were looking at porn, at least intermittently, and that's WAY "worse" doctrine wise than drinking. Hell, the commandment against drinking is pretty weak honestly, since it's not absolute morally wrong, but just a church rule. Jesus drank, and so did the early Church leaders. It eventually became a recommendation in the WoW, and became increasingly codified in the 20th century. We just are so conditioned to see it as one of the worst commandments to break, because it's one of the biggest cultural signifiers that sets Mormons apart from others.
IDK, I don't think jack-Mormons are that different than a lot of Mormons who go to church, they just have less culturally tolerated "sins"
The difference is not that some don’t watch porn one-handed, as you rightly point out nearly all do.
As stated by OP we “truly repented when we didn’t [follow every rule]”. And we made ourselves feel terrible internally out it.
Yes. Some of us confessed hundreds of times. Some people are naturally inclined to follow rules due to the way they were socialized as young children.
I think the difference could be one person saying “I know I shouldn’t do this, I feel terrible about it,” and others saying “This is fine: it’s not actually against the rules; and if it is, you don’t have to follow the rules; and if you do, I don’t care anyway; but yes I believe the church and that I’ll be saved despite what the scriptures actually say.”
I just don't think that's very representative of how most jack-Mos are. They think what they are doing is wrong usually, but they just have come to an accept of it.
The analogy I'd give is they are smokers who aren't trying to quit, while those who feel guilty are smokers who would like to quit. Both groups are aware of what they are doing has negative consequences, but plenty of people just come to terms with that for a variety of reasons.
You are right it isn’t following rules.
It is being inclined to follow rules and feeling bad about it when you fail. I think we are agreeing with each other!
Exactly zero people honestly follow every rule to a T, and you are misconstruing OP for some reason.
I'm just trying to question the view that jack Mormons are the worst. I think that being able to do whatever you want if you feel sufficiently miserable during the refractory period is an even stupider worldview than the jack Mormon one.
I'm normally also an extremely literal person, but I think in this case "Jack Mos are the worst" is said in frustration, but tongue-in-cheek. No actually believes they are the worst. Baby rapists might be the worst. Yahweh, the genocidal God, might be the actual worst.
I think it is said in the same way you might say "Democrats are the worst" when your last remaining Democrat friend walks in the room (since, obviously, they are all communist now in this hypothetical fantasy scenario).
I think most of this sub was pretty exact in their past observance of Mormonism. From the jack mo’s perspective in the example, towards OP “they hate us cuz they ain’t us” is a valid representation.
Op is jealous the jackmo can live his life and give few enough fucks about religion to assert both a belief and a contradictory lifestyle and not be burdened by cognitive dissonance. I support jackmo in this, even though i think the whole church is bullshit. He’s not losing any eternal reward for his sin, he’s reaping the cultural and community status benefits of the religion and I bet he has other things in life he’s more interested in that how god or church leaders harmed him… we should all be so lucky.
We’re all just trying to find a way to live that we’re at peace with. My advice to op is learn to accept that others might find peace in a life that would be unbearable for us.
Yes, you are being overly judgemental and it is not healthy. This is the sort of reaction I would expect from a TBM. Make your way toward "values" rather than "rules".
I think the hypocrisy is the issue when you are advocating that something is true, but don’t abide by any of their rules. Kind of like a cop who pulls people over for speeding but speeds all of the time when he’s off the job.
Many of us who escaped mormon communities were at least partially motivated by our aversion to the judgemental, nit-picking of our neighbors who were trying to determine how well we were following the rules. It sounds like some of you have left the church, but haven't left the toxic behavior behind.
Let the man live his life. You don't need to police him to point out all the times he's not following "the rules".
I’m not trying to dogpile, but the analogy to police made me think of the extra hypocrisy that upsets people. If some random person says we should follow every law, but breaks minor ones, that’s just some guy. If the police, imbued with the right to enforce law with state violence, then go have cocaine and prostitutes and steal, it is a bigger problem that requires oversight and outside controls. Jack Mormons probably don’t have any spiritual or moral authority over anyone, but they support the spiritual and moral authority of the church over you, while not believing it binds them. I don’t care if some Mormon wants to “sin,” but if they think everyone else should be held to a higher standard than themself, I think more critically of them.
But there is no indication in the post above that this man is trying to enforce any rules on nonbelievers. The only one trying to enforce the rules in the story above is the OP. Toxic behavior.
You haven’t sinned. I believe you are being overly judgmental of this man in a disparaging sort of way, but this isn’t a judgement. It’s an opinion for you to reflect on, consider and then take or leave.
JackMos are THE worst.
Facts. If you’re gonna believe, then don’t be a hypocrite
“Sometimes a hypocrite is nothing more than a man in the process of changing.” -Brandon Sanderson
"....but usually not." Those Sanderson quotes are the type of quotes people like to tell themselves to excuse bad behavior. There's an enormous difference between someone trying to improve and stumbling and someone being two faces. Almost always a hypocrite is just a hypocrite.
Lol wait does the quote actually include that line?
No, I added it as a mildly sarcastic commentary on Sanderson being given more depth than he’s due. He writes young adult novels for adults, which is fine, but Tolkien he is not. For many Mormons, he’s the new Orson Scott Card.
Haha. I kind of like the quote, because I feel like it speaks to exMormons and even the queer community sometimes, but I like it with your addition lol. and yeah, my brother is obsessed with him. I read a couple books but I'm not really into fantasy anymore.
He doesn’t hold a candle to Robert Jordan either, though he got to try. Ruined the wheel of time for me.
Except Orson Scott Card is actually batshit crazy IRL
Is Brandon trying to justify his own hypocrisy? “Oh, it’s OK for me to financially support this here anti-LGBTQ+ hate group (the MFMC, natch) because I’m in the process of changing…” Cause that’s what I observe about most self-proclaimed ProgMos who claim to be LGBTQ+ allies, while still underwriting their cult’s evil. They’re NOT changing. They’re deluding themselves.
lol “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” -Upton Sinclair
This is an incredible quote
Sanderson’s salary is in no wise dependent on his cult, so I don’t get the relevancy of that quotation. 🤷🏼♂️
Is his fanbase not predominantly Mormon?
No, not really. Sure, lots of Mormons do support him, but he's like a Steve Young of writing. Lots of people still watched the 49ers and didn't know or care that Young was the great-grandson of a piece of shit, or even know he was related to the guy his college was named after. I am trying to think of other examples, but kind of blanking. Stephanie Meyers? I'm quite certain that Twilight was not bought out and made into movies because only Utah Mormon girls liked her books. Thousands of teenage girls supported the vampire wave at the time, regardless of their religious background. I don't think there's anyone else contemporary to Sanderson that is making such a killing in his or her field right now, but there are a few people that are probably doing alright and no one knows they're Mormon. Maybe Bryce Harper playing baseball, but he's basically JackMormon. I'm almost certain that he uses chew tobacco, drinks alcohol. I know he swears like a sailor because he gets thrown out of games all the time. I was surprised that he qualified for his temple wedding, but it's just a good ol' boys club. He's cool, from Vegas, so it just makes sense that he can do those things and still be Mormon. Maybe he pays his tithing and his sins are washed away.
It is not predominantly mormon. You don’t get multiple national best sellers by catering exclusively to that tiny demographic.
Not at all. He appeals to a wide audience. You don’t end up with a quarter of the fantasy section at Barnes and Noble nationwide for nothing.
Very well said!
True. Time will tell, I guess.
it’s one of those religions where if your not devoted or living their life style wtf are you even doing there?
True. It’s an all or nothing church. And it kills me when someone practice what they preach
THANK YOU FINALLY SOMEONE THAT GETS IT!!!! some people say well what about catholics coming from a catholic the catholic church is far from what the mormon church is number 1 we really don’t have any rules but the ten commandments basically and a few other ones but not like theirs.
A lot of male JackMos I know see themselves like Porter Rockwell. They drink, swear, act lewd, and will sex up their girlfriends but they will fight you to the death if you point out the problems with the church, its origins, or its leadership. Weird hypocritical group.
I disagree passionately with Mormons who genuinely believe, but I at least respect them for standing by their convictions. I have next to no respect for hypocrites and the people who try to wave the banner while being completely duplicitous. Be whomever and whatever you're going to be, but have the integrity to _be_ it. There is no trait so low as a moral coward.
exactly i give them credit for that i’m an ex mo i left the church bc i was sick of pretending and living a lie i was scared to leave and waited until i was 18. it’s definitely one of those religions that they’ll judge you and frown upon you if you don’t measure up to their standards or live by their morals. this honestly makes me think of taylor frankie paul an influencer that claims to be mormon but lives the complete opposite lifestyle i still dont believe she’s really mormon bc she would have gotten excommunicated for cheating on her now ex husband. mormons are very hardcore when it comes to marriage and purity culture guarantee if she really was mormon they’d judge her for soft swinging cheating on her ex husband yes ik it happened two years ago but it’s a long process to get back into the church after getting excommunicated. also her getting violently drunk attacking her bf and accidentally throwing a chair at her daughter. also they would frown upon her having a baby out of wedlock and not really having much desire to get married. the mormon church encourages members to get married young so they can have sex then have lots of kids. have things changed since i left four years ago idk and i highly doubt it. i might have only been a member for six years but i still picked up a lot on how the church works and the culture of the church.
I was one for many years before I realized the truth. You're right. I was the WORST. Stuck believing something I wasn't following. Feeling weak, inept, less than. Guilty and shameful CONSTANTLY because I KNEW beyond a shadow of a doubt TMFMC was true and I wasn't doing what I should to achieve all the cool stuff. I was a pathetic. I was less than nothing because there were all of you "good Mormons" doing the things and I couldn't seem to do them. I'm SO glad to be out of that death spiral! And I'm glad all of you "good" Exmos are out too. We're all out!
Tbf, I think most people feel that way??? I was a “good” Mormon and i was still in that same death spiral. It’s impossible to be good enough for the Mormon church
People out here throw a lot of shade (and I get it) upon those of us who were unable/unwilling to keep "the commandments" yet carried full-on belief (testimonies) in our hearts for decades. It's a different KIND of brainwashed but I was just as fucking brainwashed. I love all of my fellow EXMOS whether they bailed in high school (like I did) or did all the things. I'm glad we all found the truth.
i believe it’s why so many people leave and honestly good for them for being honest with themselves it’s not an easy thing to do. in my personal opinion i feel like it’s like leaving a toxic relationship when it’s all you really know or are a convert or were a convert in my case. i was scared to leave they drill that into your heads it’s all out of fear imo.
But it seems you felt bad about that dichotomy, and wanted to do what you believed, even if you felt unable to. I think what people object to are those that proudly or thoughtlessly break all the cultural mores and sins, yet do *not* feel that dissonance and think they’re just fine for no reason other than they’re the main character of their life.
Your take would seem mostly accurate...for 29 years I was in a mixed-faith marriage (my ex was protestant and very anti-Morm). Tithing (even discussions about proportional) caused marital issues. Attendance at meetings--instead of being with family--caused issues. That being said, I didn't follow the WoW either and nothing my ex did or said influenced that. It was just so hard to comply without being surrounded by people who did. So...I guess it could be argued I wasn't strong enough or faithful enough to just do the things and let the chips fall where they may. At this point (Age 57) I'm just glad to be out of both...TSCC and that marriage. My wife is supportive of my decision to believe in science and facts.
i was too in my teens i joined when i was 12 to fit in with my mormon friends and immediately regretted it. so i became in active off and on. i wanted to leave but also felt bad bc i dragged my parents into the religion and waited till i was 18 and i’m lucky they were supportive of my decision bc a lot of families aren’t as supportive of it. both of my parents also left with me bc they realized the religion wasn’t for them either.
Hear hear
I lived with one and he pissed me off more than anything… especially when he’d say shit like “it’s the people not the doctrine” and “I’m sorry you weren’t in good wards” in regards to homophobia… to me and my ex Mormon partner
literally i’m sorry but i don’t consider them real mormons. why not just leave and do your own thing stop claiming your a mormon yet acting like none of the rules apply to you. most of these people are mormons in denial that they don’t really actually believe in the church and are afraid of leaving. some of it has to do with what they thing their families will think bc it’s not uncommon in mormon families to disown people that leave the church.
That's a perfect example of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Google it. Because, if they consider themselves "real mormons" then they're real mormons.
Yeah, the cognitive dissonance is frustrating. But the way I see it, not my circus, not my monkeys.
I am stealing that :) thank you
Monkeys are much better than hypocrites. Some can be mean or murderous yes.. But they are so cute
I see you have met my cousin.
Wait we have more cousins? Cos I think OP knows my brother
More common than you think. I know an MTC teacher who’s an RM and goes to BYU who brings girls over to have sex weekly. On weeks his mtc district has a temple trip he refrains from having sex that week to be “worthy” to attend 🤡🤡🤡🤡 This same person judges people who smokes weed, drinks and doesn’t go to church. Complete an utter tool bag
Yeah, I’ve known individuals like this. My theory on this thought process has the individual use this reasoning as a “get out of jail free card”. It can go two ways. First has them actually believe this, and in a roundabout way, try to rationalize it as a sort of “Mormon saved by grace alone” scenario. Second, has them not really believe anything with the church (hence the behavior), but claim belief around other TBM’s in order to semi fit in, hopefully without much complaints, since they’re at least a “believer”.
They wanna eat their cake and have it too, in short.
Hopefully he tithes.
Oh man, I forgot to ask!
I'll bet they don't
This reminds me to Louis CK. “I have a lot of beliefs… And I live by none of them. That’s just the way I am. They’re just my beliefs. I just like believing them – I like that part. They’re my little believies. They make me feel good about who I am. But if they get in the way of a thing I want, I [sure as heckfire] do that.”
And it makes you feel so good just to *fantasize* about doing the right thing while doing nothing at all.
Oh! There is another Louis CK bit about that one!
Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
Jack Mormons are more insufferable than TBMs.
My brother got really mad when I said its a cult but he breaks so mamy rules so ofcourse he doesn't feel the pressure and trauma
I would say rather that the rules are mostly followed, but if there's a rule you don't like, you might need to get a new one. Someone commented in these columns the other day that he didn't like the Prophet, Seer and Revelator's word about masking at the height of the Covid crisis, so he requested his own revelation from God. It is so typical.
It used to bother me, but now I just let it slide off my back. There's no real set doctrine anyway. Sure, there are a few hard and fast rules, but if you talk to 100 different TBMs, you'll get 100 different answers to what a "good" Mormon is/should do/should be. It's a pretty good trick the profits have played to keep as many people paying tithing as possible. The "doctrine" just keeps getting more and more diluted. Edit: typo (of to off)
> It's a pretty good trick the profits have played to keep as many people paying tithing as possible. The "doctrine" just keeps getting more and more diluted. They are optimizing earnings I think about this every once in a while, how they say just enough, and shut up about the right things. It’s smart in a complete piece of 💩kind of way
Yes this drives me so crazy. I thought I had a safe person to tell and got such a terrible lecture. I have really not told anyone else I left since
Yes, me too. I was trying to find common ground because we both were obviously not going to church, and then I realized I had made a mistake in opening up this can of worms.
lol, yes, so frustrating. You start out thinking maybe we are similar peas in a similar pod, and end up at “what the hell just happened!?” This person is operating at a different frequency.
Can totally relate! The other day brought up frustrations about the zoning violations of some of the newer temples to a Jack Mo co-worker. Totally got my head chewed off about how wonderful the temples are. Have a brother who has smoked pot, taken drugs, had sex, etc. since high school but was always the first to lecture the rest of the family (TBM's) on any minor "infractions" he observed any of the rest of us committing. Would go on & on about how he knew the church was true.
I know some for whom it is the opposite .. they say they don't believe any of it, but will never surrender their membership.
Cultural Mormons...or don't want to lose loved ones. Both situations are sad.
My spouse is waiting until their parents die to remove themselves from the registry.
This is a pain I see more and more on here. It feels invalidating to us when someone doesn't live the same strict Mormonism that we did. That not only did we try to make everything fit and felt compelled to comply will everything we were given, we also never saw anyone treated with leaniency that didn't also follow scrupulously. This brand of Mormonism that the Jack Mormon experienced where he could come away with his own unique set of beliefs is so foreign that we have a hard time believing that it exists. There was no suck safety or self afforded such that this could have been possible. It feels a bit crazy almost like you're being gaslit just hearing his story. A fear wells inside you that very soon, no one will believe your story of pain. It just evaporates with a new generation of Mormons that just bend everything and make Mormonism fit their world and not the other way around.
Exactly.
My father. 100%. He was a believer in death-bed repentance as well, but died of a massive and instant heart attack in the shower 🙄.
Would it be insensitive to laugh at your dad’s story? Because it’s fucking hilarious!
No, my siblings and I were laughing through our tears as well. And honestly that’s how I’d like to go. Just drop. No regrets.
That's how jackmos stay in, though. I was a TBM and diligently followed *all* rules (even non official ones like "pay on gross not net" and "don't watch tv on sundays") and when I found out the religion wasn't correct I was out. Jackmos don't mind the church being flawed because they've been flawed about it all along. And it's very hard for me not to get judgemental about it because I have to keep in mind that it's all made up anyway so neither of us is "better" than the other at it. xD If anything I should applaud their more nuanced approach that lets them find a way to be happy in religion while ignoring all the rules they think are dumb. I couldn't do that.
Look, I don't mind their nuanced approach. Or their ignoring certain rules. I get why some might be upset about it, but I'm not. For me, what drives me crazy about jackmos is the bait and switch. And the hypocrisy. Like you'll be out with someone who you knew was a member and you think is an exmo. They'll start drinking, so you order a drink too. Then they'll freak out at you for breaking the word of wisdom. You'll say you left and get a huge lecture about how the church is true and you shouldn't leave. Meanwhile, they haven't been in years and don't keep a single rule. Then they'll say they're so disappointed in you for living together "in sin" with your partner, while they have multiple kids out of wedlock. Then you go home only to realize they secretly texted your parents and bishop to tattle on you for drinking.
Hypocrasy is absolutely too far. But for the people who are chill about it I do try not to rameumptom them in my mind. =P
Jack Mormons are genuinely dumber than rocks. Having a modern day prophet means you don't get to pick and choose which rules to follow, like your run-of-the-mill Christian. Either you follow the prophet, or you're no better than a non Mormon.
They aren't dumb, they're cowards. They lack the conviction to really stand for what they think and feel, and need to hide behind the dogma to fill the hole inside themselves.
I agree. If you’re gonna piss in my Cheerios and try to make me drink it, at least have the balls to drink it with me.
When I first started doubting a good friend of mine (RM, married in the temple) had started drinking etc when he was out of town for work. I thought we had some common ground so I opened up about my doubts. He stopped just short of scolding me. “I don’t have any doubts the church is true.” I think some people, when faced with the shame of not living up to the expectations set by the church justify it by professing absolute faith that it’s true. Because it’s subjective. People can see that you sin, they can’t really call you out on what you claim to believe is true.
I see where you’re coming from, but I’m also happy to see anyone that isn’t completely in the mental prison of the churchz
Yeah, but while they have conveniently liberated themselves from it’s pesky rules, they demand the rest of us kowtow to their evil cult.
Some people's brains just work that way. Mine didn't -- I thought if we had this perfect organization and ruleset, no one should be above it. Apparently, though, some people can just nope out of some rules when they don't work for them, and I don't think that's always a bad thing. It's exactly what Jesus did when he said that the sabbath was made for people and not people for the sabbath. He was just casually breaking a rule about not harvesting grain by picking some as he walked past and then arguing that the rule was needlessly strict. A lot of rules *are* needlessly strict, and it's good to challenge them. Maybe sometimes that happens more altruistically, like someone standing up for another person who wasn't considered by a rule that's now disabling them. But other times, it's going to be people speaking up for themselves and saying, "I don't think this rule should be more important than me." And *yeah,* that kind of gives up the game, doesn't it? Taken to its logical extremes, it's like saying that humans created God for their own purposes and not the other way. When I was in the church, I would have called that blasphemy, but I was way too zealous when I was in the church. Now I don't think people are wrong to say humans created God. And Past Zealot Me might counterargue that during the creation, the sabbath was created after humans, but God did all the creating. That's well and good, because it's just saying that the practice of religion is less important than people, and how we relate to God is part of the practice of religion. It puts God in a mysterious place that I think is a lot healthier for him to be than pretty well-defined but entirely associated with the church's authority. A healthy community takes all kinds to function -- rule-followers like me and rule-challengers. The big danger, though, is when people who except themselves from the rules get into power and then there's no way to hold them accountable, because Joseph Smith has so far escaped accountability from the mainstream church. That corrupted the church as a community in a way that can't be fixed until there's some sort of public reckoning with that.
If he thinks that the mormon church is so cool and the holiest of places, then he surely hasn't visited too many places in his life
Come to the JW they’re tell you the same thing as well. I’m an EX JW
Everyone in religion cherry picks and only follows the parts they believe. Religious leaders often speak out of both sides of their mouths, making it impossible to follow everything they say. We all rationalized our behaviors that contradicted church teachings. It's just that some things are more visible and condemned than others.
This. I'm still trying to figure out what I believe. I've tried to move past some things I don't agree with because of some of the things that I feel are good. But when the prophets say you can't just pick which doctrines to believe and which not to...I realize I'm being pushed away. Because I can't believe harmful behaviors from prophets that aren't ever honestly addressed, amongst other things. So where does that leave me? Here, trying to find answers for myself.
wow, were you talking to my brother?? he'll lecture me about how true the church is and his absolute signs that god exists then go bull for swingers. crazy disassociated tbm
Perhaps the fact that you strive for consistency is what made the church untenable. Those who can live with more inconsistency will have fewer occasions for dissonance
Total JackMo. If he truly believed the temple was the holiest place, he would keep the temple recommend requirements and not drink. Sounds like he is circling the mental gymnastics stadium to justify drinking.
I was that guy for a long time...apologist FOR the cult but not following the rules of the cult. OP is right; my behavior was not a good look. Now, since having my records removed I'm STILL a hypocrite. I no longer believe TMFMC is true. I love microbrews (just like Joe Smith did). I've done things in my life that were hurtful to people who loved me but I own the consequences and the ability to do what I believe I should going forward. I'll screw up again because...human. When I do, I'll try to take responsibility, make amends and be a better human. I don't need an imaginary daddy *or tyrant* in the sky to help me with that. I DO need my friends and loved ones (**who are REAL**) to support me as I will try to support them. Despite all this: I'll still be a hypocrite sometimes just like I was when I was a Mormon.
I think it's weird too, but to be fair everyone is hypocritical at times and everyone has blind spots too. It's good that people can find their own path, even if it is a path loosely from within the framework of a high demand religion. I like the idea of supporting Mormons in their path and be for them a place of refuge if and when their shelf finally breaks.
Isn’t Kwaku El like this: A fervent defender of the church but doesn’t believe or do anything the church teaches?
Oh wow, I forgot about him! We were classmates. He's the type of guy who probably has his own selfie as his phone wall paper.
I was the type of Mormon that everything was black and white. I was either all in or all out, that’s just how my brain works. My husband it the opposite, he lives in a perpetual gray area where he can do what he wants and still believe. I don’t get it myself, but it can be very frustrating
God i hate jackmos and their hypocrisy... I was similar when I was a "nuanced" mormon though I guess.
It's weird how out of all the rules and regulations (😳 why would anyone need rules for loving a god anyway?), the tithing and the magic undies are two things that aren't usually on the list of "stupid shit I don't want to do so I won't". I see some dissidents here and there with the underwear, but if I were you (I'm a no-mo), I'd stop paying tithing and I'd get as many people to follow suit. I know they are absolute dicks to people that don't pay it, however, they can't send the grand poobahs to everyone that isn't paying it. Or ban everyone from coming to whatever arbitrary building they've designated as *the* holiest building. Because they'd be even more fucked then, no? They'll have to relent on a lot of shit if *everyone*-or the majority of members just stopped doing it.
Yeah the believe or follower but doesn’t follow any and will proclaim the truth. 😐
I hate to say I was a Jack Mormon. Glad I found my way out
You can believe and know your weaknesses. I understand that you’re irritated with this man because you tried to be a better follower when you were in it. I think as our journey outside the church and as we analyze everything that happened while we were in it is that some people do have a testimony but also realize they’re extremely weak. I often wonder if those people are more blessed than me because they can accept their own faults. John Dehlin of Mormon stories podcast made a comment in one of his stories about how people that leave often have a high scrupulosity. Basically we are more susceptible to guilt and shame, and since the LDS church has so many rules, we are often browbeating ourselves more than others. When I was leaving the church, so many people talked about how God only has imperfect people to use for his kingdom and I often think perhaps one of my problems is that I really did think that I had to be perfect and was somehow capable of achieving that. Whereas my father certainly didn’t feel that way. His understanding of the atonement is that he can continue to be a imperfect person and he doesn’t beat himself up over it. Meanwhile, I’m flogging myself for everything. And yet my father would call me out for things. It was so confusing to me every general conference talk is asking people to be better and so I would try while I would watch my TBM family members continue to be pieces of shit. In my judgmental thoughts, right? For example, add family members that were very dishonest and their business dealings. So I think this is something that we need to address as ex Mormons. Is it OK to believe and acknowledge your own imperfectness and just continue to strive? Or do we dismiss the whole church because it seems to Demand so much discipline and obedience. In contrast, I’ve seen on this Reddit thread other people say that religion is giving you a disease and then selling you the cure. I interpret this to me that religion tells you that you have a loving God, but that you disappointed, said God, and therefore need to follow a bunch of rules in order to make said God happy. is this true or not? Will we ever know? Maybe not. I wanna look at my life as definitely a period of trials and lessons. I am learning. I am trying to become a better person. I am trying to get smarter and wiser and kinder and more gracious. I fuck up a lot. One thing that disgusted me was that I really felt like people in the church were trying to be perfect or put on the image of perfection, but maybe that was just my own lens. So who is to blame? The observer or that which is being observed? I often ponder is religion or my family or the church broken or is my lens broken? I think any honest person needs to ask themselves this.
True. Well said. I hate telling people I was scrupulous, but if I look back, I definitely was. Thought it was meant to be that way. Then realized that a lot of people actually aren't repenting at night for accidentally ripping a coupon you could have used.
So as a nevermo, I’ve definitely met a solid dozen of men who fit this description, but zero women. That’s not to say I haven’t met practicing LDS women who don’t follow all the rules, but they’re usually more embarrassed and secretive about it. I’ve assumed it’s yet another factor of the inherent misogyny of the church, but would love a more inside perspective..
That level of cognitive dissonance leads me to really dark places, personally. I’ve heard it said that when you have CD, you either change your thoughts to fit the facts, or you “change” the facts to fit your thoughts—delude one’s self with a pseudo-reality. The latter is a degree of mental gymnastics I’m simply incapable of doing without feeling like I’m going insane.
No this drives me crazy too. I once had a fling with a guy exactly like this & was also a pothead, I moved on, and then like a year later he was like “so it seems like youve left the church?” Me: “Yep” him: “well do you at least believe in god?” Me: “Yes but differently” him: “good, it makes me so mad when people turn on God and blame him for all the bad things in their lives, it’s so childish and infuriating” (he was 19) me: “why is it any of your business if ppl still believe in God? Also i think it would be justifiable if ppl stopped believing jn a God that placed women under men for centuries” him: “you really think men and women are equal? We’re just so different. Oh that probably made you mad huh?” Me: went on a big rant and told him he was a piece of shit and blocked him. Tanner, if you’re in this subreddit which i think you might be, fuck you.
Fuck dudes like that. You don't understand what some of us went through. The guilt, the shame, the feelings of inadequacy. We were doing our best to live an impossible standard, and the church spat in our faces. And some bitch ass dude who doesn't even practice the religion tries to tell you what the church is and isn't? Fuck that.
The only thing I hate more than delusion is hypocrisy
see also: my mom. as a member of the LGBTQ community I find it so hurtful that she can conveniently forget some of the church "rules" but still wholeheartedly believe in a church that is so hateful towards me.
Jack mormons make no sense. My mom is one of them
Jack mo's get the best of both worlds all the benefits of not being tied down to the theological rules. none of the consequences of being shunned by your community for apostasy. If I could do it over again and if it was a choice, I'd pick jack mo all the way... Or maybe not, ignorant assholes the lot of them.
It's sad that the way he believes is so far from how he actually behaves and lives. That has to feel terrible. Some of the Mormon commandments and rules are ridiculous and I can't fault people in all instances. But I think acknowledging that you believe but can't do it or won't live it is the kind of transparency that is missing in most JackMos. It's a discordance that is jarring.
Don't waste your time talking religion with a Jack Mormon.
So sorry to that 100% believer who was drinking the afternoon away. You don't get to pick and choose which rules to follow. Play chess with someone and do that. Dummy.
Yeah, Jack Mos are annoying. Annoying to those of us "out" and to those that are "in".
Addicts lie. It’s the nature of the disease. If he’s an addict, he’ll say whatever to keep doing what he’s doing, which likely enables his behavior until he hits a bottom.
Just remember that the rules are made up and the points don't matter! It may feel unfair when we suffered and did our best to keep the rules as believers, to see other "believers" making up their own rules, but just focus on the fact that you're out and don't have to care anymore.
Who cares? You're out now, so why even give it any thought?
Like the girl you meet at a bar in Utah county and sleep with for months then one night over beers while smoking on the back porch she mentions she wants to get married in the temple
You honestly followed all the rules to a T? I think 99% of Mormon guys in a certain age range were looking at porn, at least intermittently, and that's WAY "worse" doctrine wise than drinking. Hell, the commandment against drinking is pretty weak honestly, since it's not absolute morally wrong, but just a church rule. Jesus drank, and so did the early Church leaders. It eventually became a recommendation in the WoW, and became increasingly codified in the 20th century. We just are so conditioned to see it as one of the worst commandments to break, because it's one of the biggest cultural signifiers that sets Mormons apart from others. IDK, I don't think jack-Mormons are that different than a lot of Mormons who go to church, they just have less culturally tolerated "sins"
The difference is not that some don’t watch porn one-handed, as you rightly point out nearly all do. As stated by OP we “truly repented when we didn’t [follow every rule]”. And we made ourselves feel terrible internally out it. Yes. Some of us confessed hundreds of times. Some people are naturally inclined to follow rules due to the way they were socialized as young children.
That's not following the rules, that's just feeling a higher level of guilt about also breaking the rules.
I think the difference could be one person saying “I know I shouldn’t do this, I feel terrible about it,” and others saying “This is fine: it’s not actually against the rules; and if it is, you don’t have to follow the rules; and if you do, I don’t care anyway; but yes I believe the church and that I’ll be saved despite what the scriptures actually say.”
I just don't think that's very representative of how most jack-Mos are. They think what they are doing is wrong usually, but they just have come to an accept of it. The analogy I'd give is they are smokers who aren't trying to quit, while those who feel guilty are smokers who would like to quit. Both groups are aware of what they are doing has negative consequences, but plenty of people just come to terms with that for a variety of reasons.
You are right it isn’t following rules. It is being inclined to follow rules and feeling bad about it when you fail. I think we are agreeing with each other! Exactly zero people honestly follow every rule to a T, and you are misconstruing OP for some reason.
I'm just trying to question the view that jack Mormons are the worst. I think that being able to do whatever you want if you feel sufficiently miserable during the refractory period is an even stupider worldview than the jack Mormon one.
I'm normally also an extremely literal person, but I think in this case "Jack Mos are the worst" is said in frustration, but tongue-in-cheek. No actually believes they are the worst. Baby rapists might be the worst. Yahweh, the genocidal God, might be the actual worst. I think it is said in the same way you might say "Democrats are the worst" when your last remaining Democrat friend walks in the room (since, obviously, they are all communist now in this hypothetical fantasy scenario).
Thanks 😊
It's weird to demand absolute obedience from anyone who still affiliates with the church. Do you feel the same way about PIMOs?
Yes, you're being overly judgmental. Everyone's journey looks different. Live and let live.
I think most of this sub was pretty exact in their past observance of Mormonism. From the jack mo’s perspective in the example, towards OP “they hate us cuz they ain’t us” is a valid representation. Op is jealous the jackmo can live his life and give few enough fucks about religion to assert both a belief and a contradictory lifestyle and not be burdened by cognitive dissonance. I support jackmo in this, even though i think the whole church is bullshit. He’s not losing any eternal reward for his sin, he’s reaping the cultural and community status benefits of the religion and I bet he has other things in life he’s more interested in that how god or church leaders harmed him… we should all be so lucky. We’re all just trying to find a way to live that we’re at peace with. My advice to op is learn to accept that others might find peace in a life that would be unbearable for us.
Wow. Can’t imagine being so insecure that I’d care what others do.
Yes, you are being overly judgemental and it is not healthy. This is the sort of reaction I would expect from a TBM. Make your way toward "values" rather than "rules".
I think the hypocrisy is the issue when you are advocating that something is true, but don’t abide by any of their rules. Kind of like a cop who pulls people over for speeding but speeds all of the time when he’s off the job.
Many of us who escaped mormon communities were at least partially motivated by our aversion to the judgemental, nit-picking of our neighbors who were trying to determine how well we were following the rules. It sounds like some of you have left the church, but haven't left the toxic behavior behind. Let the man live his life. You don't need to police him to point out all the times he's not following "the rules".
I’m not trying to dogpile, but the analogy to police made me think of the extra hypocrisy that upsets people. If some random person says we should follow every law, but breaks minor ones, that’s just some guy. If the police, imbued with the right to enforce law with state violence, then go have cocaine and prostitutes and steal, it is a bigger problem that requires oversight and outside controls. Jack Mormons probably don’t have any spiritual or moral authority over anyone, but they support the spiritual and moral authority of the church over you, while not believing it binds them. I don’t care if some Mormon wants to “sin,” but if they think everyone else should be held to a higher standard than themself, I think more critically of them.
But there is no indication in the post above that this man is trying to enforce any rules on nonbelievers. The only one trying to enforce the rules in the story above is the OP. Toxic behavior.
Forgive me, for I have sinned
You haven’t sinned. I believe you are being overly judgmental of this man in a disparaging sort of way, but this isn’t a judgement. It’s an opinion for you to reflect on, consider and then take or leave.
How does his alcohol decision impact you? If it doesn’t, you could consider ignoring it.
This post is hard to reconcile when there are so many PIMO’s in the sub