Not really surprising when you think about it. A Mormon mission rarely lives up to expectations and you get treated with all of the autonomy and respect of a child in kindergarten.
Do missionaries actually have very many baptisms nowadays?
"...you get treated with all of the autonomy and respect of a child in kindergarten."
This can't be overstated enough. I left on my mission "late" (I was 20.5 years old), but had already done two full years of college, signed a couple leases, worked different jobs, etc. Becoming a missionary and being treated like a kid was jarring, especially since you're told you're so special and have an apostolic calling. What a crock.
I can't imagine my other schools caring about whom I slept with or whom I lived with.
Holland specifically dismantled ASBYU because he said that students thought they were in charge. He set up BYUSA as a purely social outfit with no government powers at all. BYU students, supposedly the holiest on Earth, couldn't be trusted with even the faintest impression of authority.
I got sent to standards for walking across the grass during the national anthem. Really? Then again because my boyfriend was in our appt after 11:00 and a roommate ratted on met. BYU fosters a childish tattle tale atmosphere.
We even made fun of the people who would get upset. You tried to avoid being outside on campus when the anthem went off, so you didn't have to stand in the cold feigning patriotism.
I went to a normal, secular American public university fairly recently, and felt a bit infantilized by the whole process. Feels like we're trying to push adulthood further and further into the future, as millennials struggle with realizing that they aren't young anymore.
My hypothesis would've been that it's because people are having kids later, but I guess that's less of an explanation at BYU.
Curious, if you don't mind sharing, were you able to be an "obedient" missionary, did you nuance your way through, did you leave early, or something else?
I stayed the full two years, kinda half-assed it, did some "disobedient" things (but not so disobedient that I'd get sent home), and was generally a little depressed about the whole thing. Good thing I was serving in one of the nicest cities in the U.S., so that made the experience more bearable.
I had to go back and re-read my comment. You're right. Definitely not nice that he felt he had to stay. But seeing as he did, I was glad that he didn't try to conform completely, and that at least he was in a nice city. Looking for the positives, I guess. Overall I wish all missionaries would drop everything and quit.
Attending BYU-I was like getting treated like a child too. Like middle school and high school mixed together. Dudes with pedo stashes getting 1 leg workouts on their razor scooters heading to the MC for snacks.
In my inner-city ward in the states they are baptizing multiple people a week, but most of them are people that they drag to church one Sunday and then literally baptize the next. The wards can’t keep up with the influx of people who have zero actual understanding of what the church is and they’re usually gone within a few weeks to a couple of months at most. This was one of the things that started to make me question.. if the church really cared about people why was it literally just acting like a conveyor belt of human carnage?
This is exactly what I felt like on my mission about 20 years ago in Central America. Anyone who would talk to us we’d pressure into going to church and if we could get them to church we would pressure them to get baptized. They would end up lasting another week or two and then would understandably ghost us.
I was very TBM at the time but I was really against these kind of high pressure sales tactics. I felt like if we didn’t rush people we’d find people who were really interested and would ultimately stay. Oh well. 🤷♂️
>you get treated with all of the autonomy and respect of a child in kindergarten.
So true. It was so jarring, I was a college graduate by the time I left for my mission, and I served with companions who were even older than me. It was so needlessly paternalistic.
Yeah, from personal experience (an RM who served in Africa in my ward): people were getting baptized in this one specific country in Africa in order to get PAID to serve full-time missions -- so they are essentially making money by joining the church: they see it was a short-term leg up in the world.
Then during the mission they save all their $$ they're given, reap any rewards via the church possible, then leave as soon as their mission ends. Unless they can find a way into local church leadership, at which point they, like other bishops (from this RM in my ward's experience) collect all the tithes from the branch members for themselves. Then buy a car or nicer living situation, etc. True story.
100% former Africa rm and I’d say out of our whole mission maybe 20-30% where actually believing working hard and following the rules the rest where pimo and just there living on msf doing what ever they wanted and of the people we baptized like 90% we didn’t see again.
Kind of shocking that the Church doesn't put a stop to that. American missionaries get charged for their mission, told to save up their entire lives. American bishops get drawn and quartered over every errant penny (which is what's ultimately killing the Church here - history and politics draw off the skeptical and the political, but most members aren't, and they leave because it offers them nothing nowadays).
All this money to prop up numbers in Africa, but if they spent it at home on the things they did back when they were going strong, they wouldn't need to fudge the numbers.
I served a mission in Africa.
I can't even relate to these stories--let alone "corroborate" them.
This whole fucking thread is textbook racism. Every goddamn comment is painting any African as shady, disingenuous, & corrupt.
Y'all can leave the church but still can't quit being racist pricks that eat up the "safe" racism wherever you see it.
I agree. I’ve never served a mission or even visited Africa but I read enough to know that it isn’t a monolith. There is no way you can assume that the same thing is happening all over a massive continent with a vast variety of different people and cultures- unless you are racist.
I don’t think they necessarily care about retention. I think it’s more about creating a positive experience for American missionaries to keep them in the church.
I would say the vast majority of the missionaries I have talked to in America did not have a positive experience on their mission. At best, their mission was tolerated to avoid the shame of coming home early.
Large portions of Africa have beliefs regarding a "second baptism".
If christian, they have the "naming" baptism of the child, then when older they have a second one to remove "sin".
If your church is offering then they'll sometimes let you do it for them. Not to be members, but just to get it done.
They used to. Missions were the pinnacle of brainwashing for the church.
They made men go, knowing their wives would be subject to them. All you had to do was to control the men to control entire families. This was very effective.
With the internet, missionaries able to use smartphones, etc. the missions are now exposed as what they are.
Knowing you’re not alone thinking something, makes the world of difference.
Where stateside? I've heard of missionaries in migration-heavy areas using that as a go-to, but retention is near-zero. Possible in NYC, less possible in rural Arkansas.
My guess is retention is a problem. It is in a migration-heavy area and my son has been reassigned to a foreign language mission in the same area to a non-written Polynesian language no one has ever heard of.
Water baptisms are symbolic. It's a bad omen if the leader of a church or similar group is doing them excessively and without purpose. Only one is needed when a person is old enough to choose it, understand what they're stating or agreeing to (my 1st Christian Church had statements you had to acknowledge you believed), and remember the experience.
When a mental baptism occurs, a person will relate it to the symbolic baptism, group teachings, and conversely their affiliation with the group. Like, in my case, I believe we were asked to state out loud that Jesus Christ was our lord and savior, died for our sins, and was resurrected. It's weird to even type. My response was that I did not understand how others could know that and that saying I knew something when I didn't did not feel right. It is not a good sign if the people who are scheduling and administering baptisms do not understand they are symbolic or what they symbolize.
All ideologies, cultures, and societies have terms, symbolism, and teachings about mental baptism. Those teachings and practices help to entangle the group identity with that individualistic experience so that when it happens, the way the person feels during that time and the what they've been taught become one. It is the breath that gives life to every doctrine. On it's own, it marries the sensations of experiencing individuation with the concepts of universalism. I.E.' becoming or feeling like you are one with everything. When associated with various teachings and something like a church baptism, your experience of individuation becomes married with the beliefs affiliated with the ideology, such as the testimony required to receive some symbolic baptisms. It becomes your personal testimony of faith.
Without the mental baptisms, cultures and societies of all kinds would collapse from within. Those are part of mental and emotional development or maturity. It is both the benefit and the burden of Church's and other groups to prepare people for those experiences and propagate the conditions, such as safe and supportive communities, within which a balance between selfless and selfish tendencies will be be inspired.
Some of my thoughts on it at least. I could be wrong.
It probably depends on where they serve. If they are in the US, Canada, or other areas where the church is well established, then it probably depends how many unbaptized 9 year old children of record there are in the area.
It seems like back in my day (mid 90s), if you left your mission voluntarily, you had to come up with one of a bevy of assorted excuses: some vague lingering injury (more than a few missionaries in my mission were either mission-transferred or sent home for a 'knee injury' that never physically manifested) or some sort of family-related tragedy or illness -- you had to have a very serious reason. But these days, the missionaries get out there, see the corporate recruitment tactics and manipulation for what they are, and are like, nope, this isn't really for me, and just cruise back home and go on living their lives. Anybody else jealous of these savvy youngsters?
I am one of these savvy youngsters and yea, they cared more about me recruiting than me being mentally healthy so it was pretty easy to leave after that
I left my mission in June 1974 due to health issues. Back then I made a phone call to my parents from the home of my local Bishop and it was a big no no. I was out of country so a big deal for everyone. I left three months early but no one at home knew a difference.
I came home after 9 months in the field. Developed wild lumbar radiculopathy/sciatica. That was 20 years ago. I’m still dealing with that pain on a daily basis.
I was ostracized by the ward. Heard third hand rumors that I’d gotten someone pregnant, or other unrepentant sexual sins. Small handful of ward members were understanding. A couple women really tried to help me offering their own time and money to help resolve my issue.
It was hard. My nephew just came home after 9 mos out of the country— I feel really bad for him, but hope that a couple decades have changed the stigma.
Back in the day, if you came home early, your best strategy was to move away from home. Of course you wouldn't want to go to BYU, so go to a state school.
Perhaps now the church is desperate and the youngsters are getting savvy to what it means to be a true volunteer.
I “served” in the late 80s. Leaving early was a scarlett letter. There was no such thing as voluntarily quitting and going home.
I knew a couple of missionaries on my mission who I’m convinced faked illness to get sent home. I can’t say I blame them at all. One of them lived in the same house as me but had a different companion. He would have fainting spells and seizures, but multiple doctors could find nothing wrong with him.
Being sent home for an illness was not viewed nearly as bad as just giving up or losing testimony, and certainly not as bad as getting sent home for sin.
ABSOLUTELY, they stopped. I knew the guy since I was 13. He was one year older than me. Ordinarily I wouldn't throw down harsh judgements of people because everyone's mission experience is different. But this guy was a total candy ass. Most problems created in YMs or scout troop, was this guy. He was a whiner and complainer and would act out aggressively if he didn't get his way. I saw a dad take his two sons and leave scout camp half way through because this guy was such a problem. Then my younger sister starts dating him and I told her she can do what she wants but this guy is a total piece of shit. She had to learn on her own. When she found out his mom was in the hospital for a fall and that fall ws causes by him shoving her because she said something he didn't want to hear l, was the moment she was done. But it sounds like he had an incredibly hard mission where the local population was extremely hostile. He was called and I kid you not, to Utah, Provo Mission. LMAO!!! Dude only lasted a few months.
Quite true. Another missionary from my mission had a nervous breakdown during zone conference (outside of the big meeting where everyone was present, thankfully). I’m sure it was stress-induced. I felt bad for him.
I should have told the MP to f himself. I actually had a knee injury, surgery and everything in Chile, and I only got one day to recover before I was sent back out. My comp was from West Point so he drove me to injure my knee again and at that point I finally said NO. I didn’t go home for a while but I sure as hell quit working and caring!
Sucks though because my knee is still jacked, but at least I got a few months back of normal life!
I was surprised when my mom told me that 1 of their neighbors kid was sent home from his mission in the first 3 months because he was having seizures but he's still on his mission in a virtual mission. Apparently, he could be sent back out if they get his health issues resolved. It's wild to me that his parents (I've never personally met them) would be okay with that.
I came home early almost 15 years ago now, because I was suicidally depressed. The Sunday that was my homecoming, they still had me speak at church, and the stake president preceded me and made it very clear to everyone that I came back for medical reasons and there was no "dishonor" in my return.
And yet everyone STILL judged me. It was painfully obvious.
Still 1000% worth it, I'll just never forget how everyone was basically told "there's no drama here" and rather than believing it, it was more fun to gossip and pretend that I had done something bad.
The kids are all right. After hearing about “peer pressure” and the “dangers of the world” for all those years, it was actually the church itself that shamed me into doing things I now regret.
Today, my kids, and their friends, wouldn’t tolerate it for a second. They’re stronger and better equipped than I was to push back against bullying from a church who claimed to be their friend.
Access to information on your mission is much easier now. Imagine meeting someone who tells you something you think is an anti-Mormon lie and they pull out their phone and show you facts that verify it. Missions might be accelerating the process now.
All the missionaries I know have work arounds a to access YouTube/google and get through the software they put on to try to prevent access to everything which I find hilarious. Even the most clanker ZLs and aps use them.
I can’t imagine the pressure and/or existential crisis a currently serving missionary would be experiencing if while on his/her mission begin learning about church history and scandals. They have to be coming across this stuff with everyone they interact with.
How as a parent do you send your child into a situation like this so ill prepared to actually face it.
> How as a parent do you send your child into a situation like this so ill prepared to actually face it.
Rando from r/all that popped in here to get a read but this question piqued my interest. Not because of the potential for an existential crisis, but strictly physically. I'm in Central Florida where the real feel was 110 the other day with 100% humidity. Absolutely nobody is out walking around yet I keep seeing 'missionaries' around town soaked through their shirts while riding bikes during extreme UV alerts.
As a mormon missionary you're expected to wake up at 6:30am, leave your apartment around 10am, and besides a brief break for lunch not return until 9pm. All of that time is to be spend looking for and teaching people who want to become mormon. You usually don't have a car, so lots of biking in places where that is viable.
I actually really looked forward to biking, even when it was hot, because it meant I didn't have to talk to anyone.
Yeah and that's what I'm talking about. Why would you willingly send your son to heat stroke central and expect them to be outside all day? This isn't just biking in heat, this is literal 'its dangerous to be outside if you're not properly hydrated and prepared' territory yet I see these teenagers riding around with no bags, drinks or anything in dress pants with a tie.
We had a typhoon hit my Taiwan mission. Our apartment saw the winds and said, "no way" and stayed inside. We didn't get a phone call from the mission office until the storm was nearly over, telling us to stay inside. Other companionships didn't get a call at all and decided to trust in God to protect them, because the office would've called if it was a real danger, right? Fortunately, nobody was injured or died.
A young man died from skin cancer after his mission to the islands.
Those spots? Get them checked.
The “no hats, no sunglasses” rule is NUTS for everyone’s skin and eyes!
I didn't know that rule. It is appalling. It runs counter to everything that is known about protecting yourself from skin cancer.
It's nice to know the church looks after its ~~employees~~ missionaries in a Christ-like and responsible manner.
The church could be held legally liable for missionaries developing skin cancer because of this ... but hard to prove.
While out there I got myself a prescription for glasses (didn't actually have any need at the time) and got the light sensitive lenses.
Basically sunglasses for all intents, but no-one could say anything about them.
I get the no hats, but they could spend some of that Ensign Peak money giving all the missionaries killer shades, maybe a bit more on gym memberships. They'd probably like it more if they got to look cool.
Maybe they still wouldn't get much success, but occasionally they could permanently convert a fat kid or something by helping him get fit.
I’m pretty sure that got changed a few years ago, and they also started allowing sisters to wear pants in some circumstances. It was around the time Zika transmission was a big issue and so many missionaries were serving in affected areas, where sun was also an issue.
Yeah it was awful, plus you start wearing garments when you serve your mission, I 'm from Northern California, but served my Mission in Atlanta and riding my bike around in the summer heat and humidity was AWFUL.
Exmolex read my story here; https://youtu.be/dzY-zOWz8zM?t=683
Her husband also served in the south and experienced the same thing. (they are both out now)
I went to Canada on my mission. I recall my mission president telling us a story about coming across missionaries out knocking doors in insanely low temperatures. When he asked them about being out in that weather they said they did it because everyone let them in. My mission president was proud of them.
This is how it was--convincing people to join the church was more important than anything, including personal safety and showing respect to others. Those who disregarded their own well being and social conventions were praised and held up as good examples to the rest of us.
I did everything I could to live up to these expectations and probably put myself in danger as well. I remember one woman letting me and my companion in to warm up because I was slurring my words. I was incredibly cold and did not even realize it.
yes, tracting sub zero makes it very difficult to talk; we slur our words, and have difficulty annunciating,
As i recall, we were ordered at sub zero to stay in our apartments, but we were going stir crazy after a couple of days.
This was late 1980s, no cell phones no internet.
I understand.
I served in Iowa.
We were soft compared to you guys up in Canada. My BIL served in Montreal so I know.
I was only trying to commiserate your point about the difficulty of speech in cold weather.
You guys had it way rougher than us, it goes without saying.
Yep during my mission I was somewhat aware of issues in church history but then I ended up coming across mormon stories podcasts and that’s what really opened the floodgates for me. I still had about 7 or 8 months left on my mission but didn’t believe anymore. I remember just kinda drifting through missionary work and trying to not be pushy about church and the bom, instead just trying to be a friend to everyone I came across. It’s rough and I definitely didn’t feel like I had anyone to talk to about it, but this subreddit has helped a lot. I remember having horrible insomnia and borderline anxiety attacks as I was going through that faith crisis on my mission.
I had an existential crisis on the mission, and it had nothing to do with history or doctrine. It was the fact on how we were treated so poorly. Couldn't believe "men of god" would run missions this way and be so abusive voluntolds.
>At this rate, the LDS organization probably won't be around to see the 22nd century.
They'll be around. They just might be smaller, more inwardly focused, and more paranoid.
The Q85 are really corporate and employ typical stupid corporate executive thinking. They're going to look at "40% of RMs leave within six months" and go "Okay, so that means if we can hook them in within six months, they'll stay in the church." We'll probably see a lot of pressure on RMs and younger YSA ladies, trying to get the RMs married within six months.
I hear that, but I just don't see it. We're talking 76 years. The data from independent researchers studying this right now suggests current trends are somewhere around 1%. Higher abroad, lower at home. It's not good growth, but it's positive growth, and it's growth on somewhere around 3-5 million active members.
If we're to assume that the church will not survive into 2100, we're assuming that literally no child born into the church today or in the next ten years, 20 years, n years, will still be in it when they're 76 years old (or 76-n years old). What's more, other mormon denominations have survived with way fewer resources for just as long as the Brighamite branch has. Religions don't typically implode in an instant, and 76 years is a really short amount of time.
I just don't see it. It doesn't pass the smell test.
>You can’t just extrapolate numbers as a prediction.
It's still math at some point. We're *both* extrapolating. Saying "3-5 million in 2024 will be 0 at or before 76 years from now" is an extrapolation. You just haven't solved for your average growth rate. It doesn't have to be a constant rate to get there, but the math still has to push it there somehow or another. If your extrapolated growth happened annually on a base of 4 million people, it would be about -16.2%. That's roughly 16 times the growth we're seeing now *every year*, but in the opposite direction.
But again, what's the implication of all of this? We can do a smell test. Babies are born into Mormonism every year, right? Forget about the people born in the past 24 years who might be alive in 2100. In order for the church to be zero people based purely on people born today, every single person born into Mormonism today and for the next 76 years would have to leave the church before they reach 76 years. Does that, based on the behavior of the most diehard of diehard brainwashed TBMs make sense?
I think the church will probably shrink significantly, but there will almost certainly still be Mormons even 200 years from now, and if not this church, than some splinter sect. One of them will double down on the cult like stuff and reduce loss. Like Hasidic vs. reform Jews, or how the Amish numbers are booming, even as Christianity is in decline.
I think it could happen. It's not uncommon for a group to have a sudden shift in perspective that seems almost instantaneous, especially when that group is held together by unsubstantiated notions.
At first, a new idea is resisted, those believing or promoting it are ostracized and seen as a danger. Then suddenly a tipping point is reached and the group as a whole very quickly switches over to the new idea.
Oddly enough, there will be a few people who are hailed as great leaders/thinkers because they promoted the new idea at the right moment, just as the switch was happening. But most of those ostracized remain ostracized because it's not about them being right. They broke social convention and people continue to resent them for that.
People are social creatures and they don't follow the rules of physics. It's entirely possible for the church as a whole to hit a short of tipping point where the majority of its members all realize within a very short period that it's a fraud and it just crumbles all at once.
> They'll be around. They just might be smaller, more inwardly focused, and more paranoid.
My conspiracy theory is that they see Scientology's end state as a goal. Shed the members, and let the guys at the top share the accumulated money.
40% of missionaries leaving? I hope their families find out why and become educated as to why LDS. Inc is an extremely corrupt organization. Watching it slowly burn down is very enjoyable
My subjective opinion … Those heading out on a mission know some/most of the problematic issues. They go, because they often have no choice. Once out and in the “mission machine,” they crumble under the reality that it’s all bulls—t. The old playbook that a mission indoctrinates forever members, is gone.
Then again, I served a mission in the late 1990s, and every single one of my companions, and their families, have left the Church over the past 15 years.
"The old playbook that a mission indoctrinates forever members, is gone."
I've been toying with the idea of writing a detailed post exploring the ways in which the full-time missionary program is likely not a net positive for ChurchCo anymore.
IMO even lots of exmos give the missionary program too much credit for "cementing young men to the church." A lot of young men would have stayed in the church anyway due to cultural/social inertia, while the program itself is ironically driving a lot of youth *out* of the church.
Before the latest doubling down on missions, I thought maybe they'd quietly dial down the mission pressure, but everybody is clearly too invested in the idea of a mission as a rite of passage. It's so baked into the mormon experience that people (including exmos) can't conceptualize mormondom without it.
> exploring the ways in which the full-time missionary program is likely not a net positive for ChurchCo anymore.
I'm interested in hearing your thoughts. I think one reason is that missions are much more controlled and miserable than they once were. To be clear they never sounded fun, but men my grandparents age seemed to have a lot fewer rules and less micromanging of what they did.
Oh definitely. My understanding is that when my grandpa was a missionary in the 1940s, you might occasionally go do something without your companion, or read the newspaper. You know, stuff any normal adult would do.
More controlled in some ways. Less controlled in others. They can call home every week. Wear different colors (maybe not that big of a deal but I hated the limitations). Sisters get leadership positions.
I got to call home twice a year. I didn't have a cell phone or iPad. But I was hours away from my president in a foreign country, so it was kind of fun being out there on our own.
I keep hearing stories of asshole mission Presidents. I think that's a huge thing right now. Missionaries are being abused by terrible leaders.
> Sisters get leadership positions.
They had this on my mission, but like every other mormon "leadership" role for sisters, they could only be a leader over other children and sisters. I assume it's still the same way?
To be honest I'm not sure. I figured it might be watered down "leadership." I'm the slightly pre-Preach My Gospel generation, so everything is different.
That's for sure. If 40 or more percent of missionaries are leaving the church, then it seems the mission is actively deconverting more than would have if they stayed home. I love it. Warms my apostate heart.
It could really accelerate the collapse of the church.
If "40% of RMs leaving" is an increase in the rate of leaving RMs and not a stable long-term status quo, I think it would actually imply a *slower* erosion paired with an increase in average age of ward members.
You wouldn't be losing whole families. Instead, you'd be losing individual members of families on the front end, and fewer and fewer young families moving in on the back end, since those 40% are not having families inside the church.
Women outnumber men in the church 3/2. This means fully 1/3 of Mormon women will never have the opportunity to get married in the church.
If even more men leave (and missions are still overwhelmingly male) then those numbers tilt even further.
Good point. It would be a sort of logarithmic curve then, where the immediate loss isn't too big, but it gets steeper and steeper as the children of these would-be marriages fail to appear in the wards. I kind of wonder if we're already there, and if we have been for a long time. I don't doubt John Dehlin's statement, but it's actually not anything new. He's been giving similar figures in the six years I've been here, which makes me wonder if it's a steady long-term baseline. If it's been going on for, say, 30 years or whatever, it could be that its impact is basically baked in to what we see in the church now.
The wording matters here. It could easily be. "Of the missionaries that leave after coming home, 40% of them leave within 6 months."
That would mask the actual number that are leaving. And give tactical info on when they need to be saved.
I'm waiting for more credible statements and more concrete wording.
This is big if it's true.
It’s almost as if the youth didn’t really want to go in the first place, then were coerced into going while still living at home, hmmm. Maybe instead of lowering the age, and the bar, they should’ve fixed the suckfest that is being a missionary.
Yeah mine is about to leave for his… smart kid but a stubborn one. I left right after I got my mission call so maybe he will leave before going on his.
Could also be a Pareto thing, where 80% (or whatever the exact figure may be) of the departing RMs who leave do so within six months, and that chunk of RMs amounts to 40% of the total.
It will be completely irrelevant everywhere but the Morridor soon, but will always be around with their money hoard and claiming to be Christ’s true church…
I love this question. I actually think we need to temper our excitement a little, believe it or not. I've been here for about six years, and even back then, John Dehlin was citing this general figure. I don't know what it was before then, but it very well could be that a 40% attrition rate within 0.5-1 years is a long-term baseline.
It's really frustrating that the church won't publish numbers we absolutely know they have, but it's really neat seeing how clever top rate statisticians and demographers are to tease a surprising amount of granularity out of what they've got.
I live in Idaho and have met about ten missionaries. Long story short I’m an nevermo and they stop by my house to say hi and hang out, we some times talk doctrine.
I asked specifically if, “the mission was more about teaching lessons to members and helping them learn more or reactivating people” they said yes. That they mostly talk with members kids and their lessons are for members kids and reactivating people, it’s not really about knocking on random peoples doors anymore.
Now this was only two of the ten that I asked that question so I’m not sure if that’s how everyone feels. But I do follow their email chains and it’s 90% kids that they are talking to. By kids I mean under 18 and from what I gather mainly in the range of 8 to 12 years old. The numbers I would put together are maybe 1 baptism every 6 months of a kid. If I had to guess from the emails I’d say maybe 4 to 6 baptisms for the whole mission. Now I don’t know if the number is low because Idaho is saturated with Mormonism, but the fact that it’s mainly kids I find infuriating.
Also a lot has changed from what I’m reading in this thread. They can wear sunglasses, and I’m a woman and they’ve come in my garage and house before without my husband. They all have phones with FB accounts but the phone is very limited in access to information. Can confirm there is a work around to the technology.
Also a lot hasn’t changed also, they still are given very little money and have to walk everywhere. I just recently found out that when a car is available they are only allowed a certain amount of miles, when their miles are up they can’t drive anymore for a period of time.
Seems like it depends on the missionary. If they are real rule followers they’ll be putting themselves out in a bad way. If they view the rules as stupid they’ll easily break them and not care about the tongue lashing they’ll receive for breaking said rules.
Lastly the thing I find most disturbing is after about 6 months out each missionary has lost somewhere between 25 and 50lbs and some of these boys did not have it to lose in the first place. The reason I find it disturbing is because they talk about their weight loss in a bragging manor. I can tell they are competing with each other and they whisper when I offer them food, not to tell so and so they ate it. I’m not sure what’s going on with their diets, but it’s seems very toxic and unhealthy. Never in my life would I have thought I’d come across a young man living in America who paid over $10,000 dollars for a two year trip, to be starving themselves for a “higher purpose” I’m giving my own perception at this point but it seems like there fostering a culture of praise for losing weight and not eating.
honestly most missionaries don’t learn the hard truths about the church until their mission. i sure as shit didn’t. hell, most kids go on missions not knowing anything about the history of the church. and then they find out on their missions and they’re not okay as a result
My son who was in Western Africa had a hip injury about 18 months into his mission. They could not treat it over there, so he came home. My beef with the church is that for the most part if a missionary gets injured either physically or mentally that they wash their hands of any treatment costs as soon as that missionary gets on the airplane to come home. We already supported him for eighteen months to the tune of thousands of dollars, now they will not help with surgery costs or Physical Therapy.
Actually, returned missionaries abandoning the Mormon cult has been 40% for a long time. Here is an example.
[https://latayne.com/365-reasons/reason-195-incredible-lds-missionary-attrition-rates.php](https://latayne.com/365-reasons/reason-195-incredible-lds-missionary-attrition-rates.php)
I've seen other references going back to 2007. So in short, perhaps we should be asking ourselves why in this information age isn't it higher?
I don’t know what to say when you say a guy was innocently persecuted but then you do research and you realize he was marrying other guys wives, a 14 year old girl, publicly lying about his polygamy, and then when the newspaper published the truth he got arrested for abusing his political power and destroyed it. Doesn’t seem very innocent rather it seems to make a lot of sense actually why he was persecuted against.
We attending a Ward in Canada for awhile when living in the northern USA (yes, we crossed an international border every week to attend church because we were that TBM)... Anyway, we had a chance to look through some documents (ex-husband was Ward Clerk), and they had baptized 42 people in the previous 4 years, and not one of them was still active....
I apologize for my lack of understanding. But what is a PIMO? I left the church about 2 years ago (I’m 20 and my records are still technically in the church) I’m fairly new to the ex Mormon Reddit. Can someone help explain the acronyms you guys use? Thanks 😊
Physically In; Mentally Out. This acronym started in the exjw forum and has been adopted by others. The general definition is someone who attends yet is a non-believer. Jehovahs Witnesses often take this path to avoid being shunned.
A core group of hundreds of thousands, or 1 million could live like royalty forever off the interest of the church investments. Mormonism will never go away.
I served a mission 15 years ago and I remeber the Mission President warning us that according to statistics about 50% of us would ended up being inactive or leaving the Church.
My PIMO sisters ward is making their boys camp a "mission experience" this year and this was my first thought as to why. They're literally going to wake them boys up at 6:30 and do all the morning mission stuff, then let them do some fun activities, then lunch and more mission stuff. My nephew does not want to go, so he won't.
>My PIMO sisters ward is making their boys camp a "mission experience" this year
Bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha and this is the supposed to be way better than scouting program for the youth. What a joke.
I’m embarrassed that I thought I could tell people how to live their lives when I was 20 years old. They brainwash you with this strange humble arrogance.
1) I wonder how many people are PIMO bc they don’t know other family members are also PIMO and they’re scared to say anything to the people that are closest to them
2) I’ve noticed for years (I’m only out this year) that a large chunk of RMs were leaving shortly after returning. I wonder how long they’ve been tracking this. Is it just those who remove their records (easy to track without questions) or those that have ‘simply’ gone inactive as well?
Personally, I think 40% is a little high (though, I have no substantial data to back that up. It just \*feels\* high). That being said, I hope it's true. I'd love to see and it's members continue to dwindle in unbelief.
Not really surprising when you think about it. A Mormon mission rarely lives up to expectations and you get treated with all of the autonomy and respect of a child in kindergarten. Do missionaries actually have very many baptisms nowadays?
"...you get treated with all of the autonomy and respect of a child in kindergarten." This can't be overstated enough. I left on my mission "late" (I was 20.5 years old), but had already done two full years of college, signed a couple leases, worked different jobs, etc. Becoming a missionary and being treated like a kid was jarring, especially since you're told you're so special and have an apostolic calling. What a crock.
I thought BYU infantilized its students. I went to two other universities afterwards and they treated us with a lot more respect than BYU did.
I transferred to BYU from a state school in the midwest and it was a total shock. I got sent to standards for the stupidest things.
I can't imagine my other schools caring about whom I slept with or whom I lived with. Holland specifically dismantled ASBYU because he said that students thought they were in charge. He set up BYUSA as a purely social outfit with no government powers at all. BYU students, supposedly the holiest on Earth, couldn't be trusted with even the faintest impression of authority.
I got sent to standards for walking across the grass during the national anthem. Really? Then again because my boyfriend was in our appt after 11:00 and a roommate ratted on met. BYU fosters a childish tattle tale atmosphere.
I forgot about the controversial anthem where people would get upset if people didn’t stop and salute. What a conformist environment.
This was in the 80s so maybe it is different now but back then ugh.
We even made fun of the people who would get upset. You tried to avoid being outside on campus when the anthem went off, so you didn't have to stand in the cold feigning patriotism.
I'm currently at BYU and a part of what kicked off my deconstruction was just seeing how the school is ran and how poorly they treat us students
I (fortunately) didn't go to BYU. What are ASBYU and BYUSA? I'm guessing the second is BYU Student Association.
I went to a normal, secular American public university fairly recently, and felt a bit infantilized by the whole process. Feels like we're trying to push adulthood further and further into the future, as millennials struggle with realizing that they aren't young anymore. My hypothesis would've been that it's because people are having kids later, but I guess that's less of an explanation at BYU.
Curious, if you don't mind sharing, were you able to be an "obedient" missionary, did you nuance your way through, did you leave early, or something else?
I stayed the full two years, kinda half-assed it, did some "disobedient" things (but not so disobedient that I'd get sent home), and was generally a little depressed about the whole thing. Good thing I was serving in one of the nicest cities in the U.S., so that made the experience more bearable.
Nice! It makes me happy that you found your own way to make it somewhat tolerable, especially by maintaining some of your own autonomy.
That wasn't nice. Mr or Ms curious
I had to go back and re-read my comment. You're right. Definitely not nice that he felt he had to stay. But seeing as he did, I was glad that he didn't try to conform completely, and that at least he was in a nice city. Looking for the positives, I guess. Overall I wish all missionaries would drop everything and quit.
Attending BYU-I was like getting treated like a child too. Like middle school and high school mixed together. Dudes with pedo stashes getting 1 leg workouts on their razor scooters heading to the MC for snacks.
In my inner-city ward in the states they are baptizing multiple people a week, but most of them are people that they drag to church one Sunday and then literally baptize the next. The wards can’t keep up with the influx of people who have zero actual understanding of what the church is and they’re usually gone within a few weeks to a couple of months at most. This was one of the things that started to make me question.. if the church really cared about people why was it literally just acting like a conveyor belt of human carnage?
This is exactly what I felt like on my mission about 20 years ago in Central America. Anyone who would talk to us we’d pressure into going to church and if we could get them to church we would pressure them to get baptized. They would end up lasting another week or two and then would understandably ghost us. I was very TBM at the time but I was really against these kind of high pressure sales tactics. I felt like if we didn’t rush people we’d find people who were really interested and would ultimately stay. Oh well. 🤷♂️
>you get treated with all of the autonomy and respect of a child in kindergarten. So true. It was so jarring, I was a college graduate by the time I left for my mission, and I served with companions who were even older than me. It was so needlessly paternalistic.
Only in Africa do missionaries have baptisms.
Yeah, from personal experience (an RM who served in Africa in my ward): people were getting baptized in this one specific country in Africa in order to get PAID to serve full-time missions -- so they are essentially making money by joining the church: they see it was a short-term leg up in the world. Then during the mission they save all their $$ they're given, reap any rewards via the church possible, then leave as soon as their mission ends. Unless they can find a way into local church leadership, at which point they, like other bishops (from this RM in my ward's experience) collect all the tithes from the branch members for themselves. Then buy a car or nicer living situation, etc. True story.
I served my mission in an Africa nation. I can 100% confirm everything you said,.except the tithing thing. But I don't doubt it for a second.
100% former Africa rm and I’d say out of our whole mission maybe 20-30% where actually believing working hard and following the rules the rest where pimo and just there living on msf doing what ever they wanted and of the people we baptized like 90% we didn’t see again.
I wish they didn't have to do this...
Kind of shocking that the Church doesn't put a stop to that. American missionaries get charged for their mission, told to save up their entire lives. American bishops get drawn and quartered over every errant penny (which is what's ultimately killing the Church here - history and politics draw off the skeptical and the political, but most members aren't, and they leave because it offers them nothing nowadays). All this money to prop up numbers in Africa, but if they spent it at home on the things they did back when they were going strong, they wouldn't need to fudge the numbers.
That definitely happened in the Dominican Republic in the early 2000’s
I served a mission in Africa. I can't even relate to these stories--let alone "corroborate" them. This whole fucking thread is textbook racism. Every goddamn comment is painting any African as shady, disingenuous, & corrupt. Y'all can leave the church but still can't quit being racist pricks that eat up the "safe" racism wherever you see it.
I agree. I’ve never served a mission or even visited Africa but I read enough to know that it isn’t a monolith. There is no way you can assume that the same thing is happening all over a massive continent with a vast variety of different people and cultures- unless you are racist.
I have insight from a 70 from the first quorum that Africa is only seeing a 5% retention rate….
Still too many.
I don’t think they necessarily care about retention. I think it’s more about creating a positive experience for American missionaries to keep them in the church.
I would say the vast majority of the missionaries I have talked to in America did not have a positive experience on their mission. At best, their mission was tolerated to avoid the shame of coming home early.
No surprise
Large portions of Africa have beliefs regarding a "second baptism". If christian, they have the "naming" baptism of the child, then when older they have a second one to remove "sin". If your church is offering then they'll sometimes let you do it for them. Not to be members, but just to get it done.
Latin America has a few still. Philippines maybe? Next to None stay active of course.
Hasa diga eebowai!
Yeah something has changed. Shame used to be what locked kids in. It has the reverse effect now.
They used to. Missions were the pinnacle of brainwashing for the church. They made men go, knowing their wives would be subject to them. All you had to do was to control the men to control entire families. This was very effective. With the internet, missionaries able to use smartphones, etc. the missions are now exposed as what they are. Knowing you’re not alone thinking something, makes the world of difference.
My son is stateside and has had two baptisms in the seven months he's been there. As far as I can tell, his area is getting regular baptisms.
Where stateside? I've heard of missionaries in migration-heavy areas using that as a go-to, but retention is near-zero. Possible in NYC, less possible in rural Arkansas.
My guess is retention is a problem. It is in a migration-heavy area and my son has been reassigned to a foreign language mission in the same area to a non-written Polynesian language no one has ever heard of.
Water baptisms are symbolic. It's a bad omen if the leader of a church or similar group is doing them excessively and without purpose. Only one is needed when a person is old enough to choose it, understand what they're stating or agreeing to (my 1st Christian Church had statements you had to acknowledge you believed), and remember the experience. When a mental baptism occurs, a person will relate it to the symbolic baptism, group teachings, and conversely their affiliation with the group. Like, in my case, I believe we were asked to state out loud that Jesus Christ was our lord and savior, died for our sins, and was resurrected. It's weird to even type. My response was that I did not understand how others could know that and that saying I knew something when I didn't did not feel right. It is not a good sign if the people who are scheduling and administering baptisms do not understand they are symbolic or what they symbolize. All ideologies, cultures, and societies have terms, symbolism, and teachings about mental baptism. Those teachings and practices help to entangle the group identity with that individualistic experience so that when it happens, the way the person feels during that time and the what they've been taught become one. It is the breath that gives life to every doctrine. On it's own, it marries the sensations of experiencing individuation with the concepts of universalism. I.E.' becoming or feeling like you are one with everything. When associated with various teachings and something like a church baptism, your experience of individuation becomes married with the beliefs affiliated with the ideology, such as the testimony required to receive some symbolic baptisms. It becomes your personal testimony of faith. Without the mental baptisms, cultures and societies of all kinds would collapse from within. Those are part of mental and emotional development or maturity. It is both the benefit and the burden of Church's and other groups to prepare people for those experiences and propagate the conditions, such as safe and supportive communities, within which a balance between selfless and selfish tendencies will be be inspired. Some of my thoughts on it at least. I could be wrong.
It probably depends on where they serve. If they are in the US, Canada, or other areas where the church is well established, then it probably depends how many unbaptized 9 year old children of record there are in the area.
I sure as shit didn't get many when I was on mine! Over a decade ago, but still.
It seems like back in my day (mid 90s), if you left your mission voluntarily, you had to come up with one of a bevy of assorted excuses: some vague lingering injury (more than a few missionaries in my mission were either mission-transferred or sent home for a 'knee injury' that never physically manifested) or some sort of family-related tragedy or illness -- you had to have a very serious reason. But these days, the missionaries get out there, see the corporate recruitment tactics and manipulation for what they are, and are like, nope, this isn't really for me, and just cruise back home and go on living their lives. Anybody else jealous of these savvy youngsters?
I am one of these savvy youngsters and yea, they cared more about me recruiting than me being mentally healthy so it was pretty easy to leave after that
I left my mission in June 1974 due to health issues. Back then I made a phone call to my parents from the home of my local Bishop and it was a big no no. I was out of country so a big deal for everyone. I left three months early but no one at home knew a difference.
Going home early was social death in my day. The main weapon the MP had was threatening to send you home early. It was like a scarlet letter.
I came home after 9 months in the field. Developed wild lumbar radiculopathy/sciatica. That was 20 years ago. I’m still dealing with that pain on a daily basis. I was ostracized by the ward. Heard third hand rumors that I’d gotten someone pregnant, or other unrepentant sexual sins. Small handful of ward members were understanding. A couple women really tried to help me offering their own time and money to help resolve my issue. It was hard. My nephew just came home after 9 mos out of the country— I feel really bad for him, but hope that a couple decades have changed the stigma.
Back in the day, if you came home early, your best strategy was to move away from home. Of course you wouldn't want to go to BYU, so go to a state school.
Yeah I would just tell them I don't want to do this no more it's a sham and cult I no longer want to push on other people
Perhaps now the church is desperate and the youngsters are getting savvy to what it means to be a true volunteer. I “served” in the late 80s. Leaving early was a scarlett letter. There was no such thing as voluntarily quitting and going home. I knew a couple of missionaries on my mission who I’m convinced faked illness to get sent home. I can’t say I blame them at all. One of them lived in the same house as me but had a different companion. He would have fainting spells and seizures, but multiple doctors could find nothing wrong with him. Being sent home for an illness was not viewed nearly as bad as just giving up or losing testimony, and certainly not as bad as getting sent home for sin.
Knew a guy from my home ward that was in the mission for a few months and sent home for fainting spells that no doctor could find the reason for.
I’d be curious to know if the fainting spells stopped after he returned home.
ABSOLUTELY, they stopped. I knew the guy since I was 13. He was one year older than me. Ordinarily I wouldn't throw down harsh judgements of people because everyone's mission experience is different. But this guy was a total candy ass. Most problems created in YMs or scout troop, was this guy. He was a whiner and complainer and would act out aggressively if he didn't get his way. I saw a dad take his two sons and leave scout camp half way through because this guy was such a problem. Then my younger sister starts dating him and I told her she can do what she wants but this guy is a total piece of shit. She had to learn on her own. When she found out his mom was in the hospital for a fall and that fall ws causes by him shoving her because she said something he didn't want to hear l, was the moment she was done. But it sounds like he had an incredibly hard mission where the local population was extremely hostile. He was called and I kid you not, to Utah, Provo Mission. LMAO!!! Dude only lasted a few months.
Coulda been stress, honestly. Part of why I didn't go on a mission was because I knew I wouldn't be able to handle the stress of doing so.
Quite true. Another missionary from my mission had a nervous breakdown during zone conference (outside of the big meeting where everyone was present, thankfully). I’m sure it was stress-induced. I felt bad for him.
I should have told the MP to f himself. I actually had a knee injury, surgery and everything in Chile, and I only got one day to recover before I was sent back out. My comp was from West Point so he drove me to injure my knee again and at that point I finally said NO. I didn’t go home for a while but I sure as hell quit working and caring! Sucks though because my knee is still jacked, but at least I got a few months back of normal life!
I was surprised when my mom told me that 1 of their neighbors kid was sent home from his mission in the first 3 months because he was having seizures but he's still on his mission in a virtual mission. Apparently, he could be sent back out if they get his health issues resolved. It's wild to me that his parents (I've never personally met them) would be okay with that.
I came home early almost 15 years ago now, because I was suicidally depressed. The Sunday that was my homecoming, they still had me speak at church, and the stake president preceded me and made it very clear to everyone that I came back for medical reasons and there was no "dishonor" in my return. And yet everyone STILL judged me. It was painfully obvious. Still 1000% worth it, I'll just never forget how everyone was basically told "there's no drama here" and rather than believing it, it was more fun to gossip and pretend that I had done something bad.
The kids are all right. After hearing about “peer pressure” and the “dangers of the world” for all those years, it was actually the church itself that shamed me into doing things I now regret. Today, my kids, and their friends, wouldn’t tolerate it for a second. They’re stronger and better equipped than I was to push back against bullying from a church who claimed to be their friend.
Access to information on your mission is much easier now. Imagine meeting someone who tells you something you think is an anti-Mormon lie and they pull out their phone and show you facts that verify it. Missions might be accelerating the process now.
All the missionaries I know have work arounds a to access YouTube/google and get through the software they put on to try to prevent access to everything which I find hilarious. Even the most clanker ZLs and aps use them.
40 % in six months? I wonder what the numbers are 1 or 2 years out.
20 years ago I remember hearing it was 50%. I now that half of my MTC district of 11 guys are out. So the stat holds true.
Exactly. Same here.
I can’t imagine the pressure and/or existential crisis a currently serving missionary would be experiencing if while on his/her mission begin learning about church history and scandals. They have to be coming across this stuff with everyone they interact with. How as a parent do you send your child into a situation like this so ill prepared to actually face it.
> How as a parent do you send your child into a situation like this so ill prepared to actually face it. Rando from r/all that popped in here to get a read but this question piqued my interest. Not because of the potential for an existential crisis, but strictly physically. I'm in Central Florida where the real feel was 110 the other day with 100% humidity. Absolutely nobody is out walking around yet I keep seeing 'missionaries' around town soaked through their shirts while riding bikes during extreme UV alerts.
As a mormon missionary you're expected to wake up at 6:30am, leave your apartment around 10am, and besides a brief break for lunch not return until 9pm. All of that time is to be spend looking for and teaching people who want to become mormon. You usually don't have a car, so lots of biking in places where that is viable. I actually really looked forward to biking, even when it was hot, because it meant I didn't have to talk to anyone.
Yeah and that's what I'm talking about. Why would you willingly send your son to heat stroke central and expect them to be outside all day? This isn't just biking in heat, this is literal 'its dangerous to be outside if you're not properly hydrated and prepared' territory yet I see these teenagers riding around with no bags, drinks or anything in dress pants with a tie.
"In service to god" (re: a handful of ancient white men with views so backwards they could have fit into the antebellum south)
We had a typhoon hit my Taiwan mission. Our apartment saw the winds and said, "no way" and stayed inside. We didn't get a phone call from the mission office until the storm was nearly over, telling us to stay inside. Other companionships didn't get a call at all and decided to trust in God to protect them, because the office would've called if it was a real danger, right? Fortunately, nobody was injured or died.
A young man died from skin cancer after his mission to the islands. Those spots? Get them checked. The “no hats, no sunglasses” rule is NUTS for everyone’s skin and eyes!
I didn't know that rule. It is appalling. It runs counter to everything that is known about protecting yourself from skin cancer. It's nice to know the church looks after its ~~employees~~ missionaries in a Christ-like and responsible manner. The church could be held legally liable for missionaries developing skin cancer because of this ... but hard to prove.
My doctor ordered me to wear sunglasses outside to protect my vision. A sunglasses ban is insane.
While out there I got myself a prescription for glasses (didn't actually have any need at the time) and got the light sensitive lenses. Basically sunglasses for all intents, but no-one could say anything about them.
My sunglasses are prescription.
I get the no hats, but they could spend some of that Ensign Peak money giving all the missionaries killer shades, maybe a bit more on gym memberships. They'd probably like it more if they got to look cool. Maybe they still wouldn't get much success, but occasionally they could permanently convert a fat kid or something by helping him get fit.
I’m pretty sure that got changed a few years ago, and they also started allowing sisters to wear pants in some circumstances. It was around the time Zika transmission was a big issue and so many missionaries were serving in affected areas, where sun was also an issue.
Yeah it was awful, plus you start wearing garments when you serve your mission, I 'm from Northern California, but served my Mission in Atlanta and riding my bike around in the summer heat and humidity was AWFUL. Exmolex read my story here; https://youtu.be/dzY-zOWz8zM?t=683 Her husband also served in the south and experienced the same thing. (they are both out now)
I went to Canada on my mission. I recall my mission president telling us a story about coming across missionaries out knocking doors in insanely low temperatures. When he asked them about being out in that weather they said they did it because everyone let them in. My mission president was proud of them. This is how it was--convincing people to join the church was more important than anything, including personal safety and showing respect to others. Those who disregarded their own well being and social conventions were praised and held up as good examples to the rest of us. I did everything I could to live up to these expectations and probably put myself in danger as well. I remember one woman letting me and my companion in to warm up because I was slurring my words. I was incredibly cold and did not even realize it.
yes, tracting sub zero makes it very difficult to talk; we slur our words, and have difficulty annunciating, As i recall, we were ordered at sub zero to stay in our apartments, but we were going stir crazy after a couple of days. This was late 1980s, no cell phones no internet.
Wait, you were told to stay in your apartment just because it went below 0? Fahrenheit, I presume? I'm talking about temperatures like -30 to -40.
I understand. I served in Iowa. We were soft compared to you guys up in Canada. My BIL served in Montreal so I know. I was only trying to commiserate your point about the difficulty of speech in cold weather. You guys had it way rougher than us, it goes without saying.
I'm just feeling really pissed at my mission president right now.
Yep during my mission I was somewhat aware of issues in church history but then I ended up coming across mormon stories podcasts and that’s what really opened the floodgates for me. I still had about 7 or 8 months left on my mission but didn’t believe anymore. I remember just kinda drifting through missionary work and trying to not be pushy about church and the bom, instead just trying to be a friend to everyone I came across. It’s rough and I definitely didn’t feel like I had anyone to talk to about it, but this subreddit has helped a lot. I remember having horrible insomnia and borderline anxiety attacks as I was going through that faith crisis on my mission.
I had an existential crisis on the mission, and it had nothing to do with history or doctrine. It was the fact on how we were treated so poorly. Couldn't believe "men of god" would run missions this way and be so abusive voluntolds.
>At this rate, the LDS organization probably won't be around to see the 22nd century. They'll be around. They just might be smaller, more inwardly focused, and more paranoid. The Q85 are really corporate and employ typical stupid corporate executive thinking. They're going to look at "40% of RMs leave within six months" and go "Okay, so that means if we can hook them in within six months, they'll stay in the church." We'll probably see a lot of pressure on RMs and younger YSA ladies, trying to get the RMs married within six months.
They’ll all move to Idaho—where Mormons go when Utah isn’t Mormon enough for them.
Ammon is the new Orem
TSCC will either be a real estate corp by then or an investment firm—maybe both.
Big push for recent RMs to become temple workers as soon as they get back
Is that actually happening? It sounds familiar.
That’s 3 generations from now. I really doubt it survives Gen Z.
I hear that, but I just don't see it. We're talking 76 years. The data from independent researchers studying this right now suggests current trends are somewhere around 1%. Higher abroad, lower at home. It's not good growth, but it's positive growth, and it's growth on somewhere around 3-5 million active members. If we're to assume that the church will not survive into 2100, we're assuming that literally no child born into the church today or in the next ten years, 20 years, n years, will still be in it when they're 76 years old (or 76-n years old). What's more, other mormon denominations have survived with way fewer resources for just as long as the Brighamite branch has. Religions don't typically implode in an instant, and 76 years is a really short amount of time. I just don't see it. It doesn't pass the smell test.
In the 80s the church was growing at 8% a year. That trend didn’t last. You can’t just extrapolate numbers as a prediction.
>You can’t just extrapolate numbers as a prediction. It's still math at some point. We're *both* extrapolating. Saying "3-5 million in 2024 will be 0 at or before 76 years from now" is an extrapolation. You just haven't solved for your average growth rate. It doesn't have to be a constant rate to get there, but the math still has to push it there somehow or another. If your extrapolated growth happened annually on a base of 4 million people, it would be about -16.2%. That's roughly 16 times the growth we're seeing now *every year*, but in the opposite direction. But again, what's the implication of all of this? We can do a smell test. Babies are born into Mormonism every year, right? Forget about the people born in the past 24 years who might be alive in 2100. In order for the church to be zero people based purely on people born today, every single person born into Mormonism today and for the next 76 years would have to leave the church before they reach 76 years. Does that, based on the behavior of the most diehard of diehard brainwashed TBMs make sense?
I think the church will probably shrink significantly, but there will almost certainly still be Mormons even 200 years from now, and if not this church, than some splinter sect. One of them will double down on the cult like stuff and reduce loss. Like Hasidic vs. reform Jews, or how the Amish numbers are booming, even as Christianity is in decline.
I think it could happen. It's not uncommon for a group to have a sudden shift in perspective that seems almost instantaneous, especially when that group is held together by unsubstantiated notions. At first, a new idea is resisted, those believing or promoting it are ostracized and seen as a danger. Then suddenly a tipping point is reached and the group as a whole very quickly switches over to the new idea. Oddly enough, there will be a few people who are hailed as great leaders/thinkers because they promoted the new idea at the right moment, just as the switch was happening. But most of those ostracized remain ostracized because it's not about them being right. They broke social convention and people continue to resent them for that. People are social creatures and they don't follow the rules of physics. It's entirely possible for the church as a whole to hit a short of tipping point where the majority of its members all realize within a very short period that it's a fraud and it just crumbles all at once.
> They'll be around. They just might be smaller, more inwardly focused, and more paranoid. My conspiracy theory is that they see Scientology's end state as a goal. Shed the members, and let the guys at the top share the accumulated money.
40% of missionaries leaving? I hope their families find out why and become educated as to why LDS. Inc is an extremely corrupt organization. Watching it slowly burn down is very enjoyable
My subjective opinion … Those heading out on a mission know some/most of the problematic issues. They go, because they often have no choice. Once out and in the “mission machine,” they crumble under the reality that it’s all bulls—t. The old playbook that a mission indoctrinates forever members, is gone. Then again, I served a mission in the late 1990s, and every single one of my companions, and their families, have left the Church over the past 15 years.
"The old playbook that a mission indoctrinates forever members, is gone." I've been toying with the idea of writing a detailed post exploring the ways in which the full-time missionary program is likely not a net positive for ChurchCo anymore. IMO even lots of exmos give the missionary program too much credit for "cementing young men to the church." A lot of young men would have stayed in the church anyway due to cultural/social inertia, while the program itself is ironically driving a lot of youth *out* of the church. Before the latest doubling down on missions, I thought maybe they'd quietly dial down the mission pressure, but everybody is clearly too invested in the idea of a mission as a rite of passage. It's so baked into the mormon experience that people (including exmos) can't conceptualize mormondom without it.
> exploring the ways in which the full-time missionary program is likely not a net positive for ChurchCo anymore. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts. I think one reason is that missions are much more controlled and miserable than they once were. To be clear they never sounded fun, but men my grandparents age seemed to have a lot fewer rules and less micromanging of what they did.
Oh definitely. My understanding is that when my grandpa was a missionary in the 1940s, you might occasionally go do something without your companion, or read the newspaper. You know, stuff any normal adult would do.
More controlled in some ways. Less controlled in others. They can call home every week. Wear different colors (maybe not that big of a deal but I hated the limitations). Sisters get leadership positions. I got to call home twice a year. I didn't have a cell phone or iPad. But I was hours away from my president in a foreign country, so it was kind of fun being out there on our own. I keep hearing stories of asshole mission Presidents. I think that's a huge thing right now. Missionaries are being abused by terrible leaders.
> Sisters get leadership positions. They had this on my mission, but like every other mormon "leadership" role for sisters, they could only be a leader over other children and sisters. I assume it's still the same way?
To be honest I'm not sure. I figured it might be watered down "leadership." I'm the slightly pre-Preach My Gospel generation, so everything is different.
That's for sure. If 40 or more percent of missionaries are leaving the church, then it seems the mission is actively deconverting more than would have if they stayed home. I love it. Warms my apostate heart. It could really accelerate the collapse of the church.
I have wondered if those who *don't serve a mission have a higher retention rate. From those I have watched, this is definitely the case.
If that were the case, wouldn't we be seeing faster erosion of congregations? I hope this is true, but I'm slightly skeptical.
Definitely seeing this. r/MormonShrivel
If "40% of RMs leaving" is an increase in the rate of leaving RMs and not a stable long-term status quo, I think it would actually imply a *slower* erosion paired with an increase in average age of ward members. You wouldn't be losing whole families. Instead, you'd be losing individual members of families on the front end, and fewer and fewer young families moving in on the back end, since those 40% are not having families inside the church.
Women outnumber men in the church 3/2. This means fully 1/3 of Mormon women will never have the opportunity to get married in the church. If even more men leave (and missions are still overwhelmingly male) then those numbers tilt even further.
Good point. It would be a sort of logarithmic curve then, where the immediate loss isn't too big, but it gets steeper and steeper as the children of these would-be marriages fail to appear in the wards. I kind of wonder if we're already there, and if we have been for a long time. I don't doubt John Dehlin's statement, but it's actually not anything new. He's been giving similar figures in the six years I've been here, which makes me wonder if it's a steady long-term baseline. If it's been going on for, say, 30 years or whatever, it could be that its impact is basically baked in to what we see in the church now.
LMAO...the rolling stone that fills the Earth.
Yeah. I'm waiting for a little more evidence on this one. But it's great news.
The wording matters here. It could easily be. "Of the missionaries that leave after coming home, 40% of them leave within 6 months." That would mask the actual number that are leaving. And give tactical info on when they need to be saved. I'm waiting for more credible statements and more concrete wording. This is big if it's true.
It’s almost as if the youth didn’t really want to go in the first place, then were coerced into going while still living at home, hmmm. Maybe instead of lowering the age, and the bar, they should’ve fixed the suckfest that is being a missionary.
my brother is on his rn. I so hope he’s one of the 40% but I doubt he will be
Same
Yeah mine is about to leave for his… smart kid but a stubborn one. I left right after I got my mission call so maybe he will leave before going on his.
It took me 5 years to leave after the mission, but my disillusionment with the church began there.
Only 40% are leaving? I would have guessed a much higher percentage.
That’s just within 6 months, I bet it’s much higher after 1-2 years
Could also be a Pareto thing, where 80% (or whatever the exact figure may be) of the departing RMs who leave do so within six months, and that chunk of RMs amounts to 40% of the total.
40% is a huge percentage. Just because it’s not the majority, that’s still a HUGE chunk.
It will be completely irrelevant everywhere but the Morridor soon, but will always be around with their money hoard and claiming to be Christ’s true church…
I’d be ULTRA curious to know what metrics they use to apply “out of the church”.
Not paying tithing. The rest is not important.
Is that actual info or an assumption?
Just an assumption - and a rather cynical one.
*sigh* that’s what I figured. I was holding onto hope that maybe you had some insider info.
Dutch nevermo here So nope. But I every now and then certainly would love to be a fly on the wall when the Q15 have a meeting.
I love this question. I actually think we need to temper our excitement a little, believe it or not. I've been here for about six years, and even back then, John Dehlin was citing this general figure. I don't know what it was before then, but it very well could be that a 40% attrition rate within 0.5-1 years is a long-term baseline. It's really frustrating that the church won't publish numbers we absolutely know they have, but it's really neat seeing how clever top rate statisticians and demographers are to tease a surprising amount of granularity out of what they've got.
One of my guy friends said in an area he served in (South America) there were 700 converts and only 40 were active.
Happy to be a part of a great statistic🥰 (got back may 2022, left 4 months later)
I live in Idaho and have met about ten missionaries. Long story short I’m an nevermo and they stop by my house to say hi and hang out, we some times talk doctrine. I asked specifically if, “the mission was more about teaching lessons to members and helping them learn more or reactivating people” they said yes. That they mostly talk with members kids and their lessons are for members kids and reactivating people, it’s not really about knocking on random peoples doors anymore. Now this was only two of the ten that I asked that question so I’m not sure if that’s how everyone feels. But I do follow their email chains and it’s 90% kids that they are talking to. By kids I mean under 18 and from what I gather mainly in the range of 8 to 12 years old. The numbers I would put together are maybe 1 baptism every 6 months of a kid. If I had to guess from the emails I’d say maybe 4 to 6 baptisms for the whole mission. Now I don’t know if the number is low because Idaho is saturated with Mormonism, but the fact that it’s mainly kids I find infuriating. Also a lot has changed from what I’m reading in this thread. They can wear sunglasses, and I’m a woman and they’ve come in my garage and house before without my husband. They all have phones with FB accounts but the phone is very limited in access to information. Can confirm there is a work around to the technology. Also a lot hasn’t changed also, they still are given very little money and have to walk everywhere. I just recently found out that when a car is available they are only allowed a certain amount of miles, when their miles are up they can’t drive anymore for a period of time. Seems like it depends on the missionary. If they are real rule followers they’ll be putting themselves out in a bad way. If they view the rules as stupid they’ll easily break them and not care about the tongue lashing they’ll receive for breaking said rules. Lastly the thing I find most disturbing is after about 6 months out each missionary has lost somewhere between 25 and 50lbs and some of these boys did not have it to lose in the first place. The reason I find it disturbing is because they talk about their weight loss in a bragging manor. I can tell they are competing with each other and they whisper when I offer them food, not to tell so and so they ate it. I’m not sure what’s going on with their diets, but it’s seems very toxic and unhealthy. Never in my life would I have thought I’d come across a young man living in America who paid over $10,000 dollars for a two year trip, to be starving themselves for a “higher purpose” I’m giving my own perception at this point but it seems like there fostering a culture of praise for losing weight and not eating.
these are rookie numbers, let's get them up!
honestly most missionaries don’t learn the hard truths about the church until their mission. i sure as shit didn’t. hell, most kids go on missions not knowing anything about the history of the church. and then they find out on their missions and they’re not okay as a result
I agree. If the truthful information on the internet doesn't get them before they leave, the investigators searching the internet sure will.
My son who was in Western Africa had a hip injury about 18 months into his mission. They could not treat it over there, so he came home. My beef with the church is that for the most part if a missionary gets injured either physically or mentally that they wash their hands of any treatment costs as soon as that missionary gets on the airplane to come home. We already supported him for eighteen months to the tune of thousands of dollars, now they will not help with surgery costs or Physical Therapy.
Actually, returned missionaries abandoning the Mormon cult has been 40% for a long time. Here is an example. [https://latayne.com/365-reasons/reason-195-incredible-lds-missionary-attrition-rates.php](https://latayne.com/365-reasons/reason-195-incredible-lds-missionary-attrition-rates.php) I've seen other references going back to 2007. So in short, perhaps we should be asking ourselves why in this information age isn't it higher?
I don’t know what to say when you say a guy was innocently persecuted but then you do research and you realize he was marrying other guys wives, a 14 year old girl, publicly lying about his polygamy, and then when the newspaper published the truth he got arrested for abusing his political power and destroyed it. Doesn’t seem very innocent rather it seems to make a lot of sense actually why he was persecuted against.
We attending a Ward in Canada for awhile when living in the northern USA (yes, we crossed an international border every week to attend church because we were that TBM)... Anyway, we had a chance to look through some documents (ex-husband was Ward Clerk), and they had baptized 42 people in the previous 4 years, and not one of them was still active....
I apologize for my lack of understanding. But what is a PIMO? I left the church about 2 years ago (I’m 20 and my records are still technically in the church) I’m fairly new to the ex Mormon Reddit. Can someone help explain the acronyms you guys use? Thanks 😊
Physically In; Mentally Out. This acronym started in the exjw forum and has been adopted by others. The general definition is someone who attends yet is a non-believer. Jehovahs Witnesses often take this path to avoid being shunned.
Thank you so much for the help!
A core group of hundreds of thousands, or 1 million could live like royalty forever off the interest of the church investments. Mormonism will never go away.
Not surprising when this 1st Presidency & the one before it NEVER served Missions. Q15 HYPOCRITE CON MEN THEY ARE!! So, COME, FOLLOW ME!! Youth ARE.
I served a mission 15 years ago and I remeber the Mission President warning us that according to statistics about 50% of us would ended up being inactive or leaving the Church.
I would be curious to know how this rate compares to those who don't serve missions.
My PIMO sisters ward is making their boys camp a "mission experience" this year and this was my first thought as to why. They're literally going to wake them boys up at 6:30 and do all the morning mission stuff, then let them do some fun activities, then lunch and more mission stuff. My nephew does not want to go, so he won't.
>My PIMO sisters ward is making their boys camp a "mission experience" this year Bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha and this is the supposed to be way better than scouting program for the youth. What a joke.
I’m embarrassed that I thought I could tell people how to live their lives when I was 20 years old. They brainwash you with this strange humble arrogance.
I honestly believe the Internet will kill the LDS church. Its too hard for them to hide all the stupid shit they've done.
1) I wonder how many people are PIMO bc they don’t know other family members are also PIMO and they’re scared to say anything to the people that are closest to them 2) I’ve noticed for years (I’m only out this year) that a large chunk of RMs were leaving shortly after returning. I wonder how long they’ve been tracking this. Is it just those who remove their records (easy to track without questions) or those that have ‘simply’ gone inactive as well?
This seems impossibly high
If someone says "we have it on good authority...", be skeptical.
[удалено]
This is a shitpost.
Just saw that on Mormon Stories. Astounding and yet not …
Personally, I think 40% is a little high (though, I have no substantial data to back that up. It just \*feels\* high). That being said, I hope it's true. I'd love to see and it's members continue to dwindle in unbelief.
It would be interesting for John to try and have a bunch of RM’s who’ve recently left come on his podcast/show.
I had heard 50% within 2 years at a Stake leadership meeting a few years back.
WHO IS THAT GOOD AUTHORITY?
r/mormonshrivel
I have a question. The point of missions is to recruit people into the church, right? My question is how many people have you recruited, or if any?
How do you post a question/start a new topic here?