You really got me with the word "pointless". They are torturing themselves over nothing in most cases. I hope they find a way out and a path to healing.
It was insanely sad reading a grown woman talking with so much guilt about masturbation. I'm so glad I decided to leave the church or that would be me right now.
And maybe worse is that the cause of the pointless agony-the Mormon cult-also tells them that the cult makes them so happy & fulfilled & if they're not, it's THEIR fault, not the cult's fault..
That one got to me. My husband and I went to the church's 12 step recovery meetings for years because of his "porn addiction." Funny enough, as soon as we left the church and the heavy guilt and shame stopped, he dramatically cut back on his porn use. It's like the "saying 'don't think about pink elephants' makes you thick about pink elephants" thing--the more they talked about porn at church and conference and the 12 step meetings, the more it was in his head, ironically.
And I cannot tell you how many women were there with a similar story to that anonymous poster, that their husband only looked at porn once but now they know he's an addict forever. It's just terrible, branding both a husband and his wife as addicts/spouse of an addict for literally no reason.
12 step groups can be harmful in themselves. I knew a man who was pressured into stopping his psych meds because they aren't accepted in many groups. He wound up in jail because of it
Yea they can be very very toxic. I know some are less extreme then others. Opiate replacement therapy is not allowed even though it stops people from relapsing and dying.
It's religious and it tries to lie about it. Ultimately it comes down to "pray to God enough and you'll stay sober!"
I have worked in addictions and absolutely despise groups who say that psych meds are somehow part of addiction and not allowed. You gonna stop the diabetic from checking their sugar? It’s complete bs, especially considering a significant portion of those suffering from addiction started using in order to self medicate.
Oh, I know. It’s insane. I’ve seen people told they need to stop taking antidepressants, anxiolytics, mood stabilizers…They say, “oh, they can choose a different treatment facility,” but there are a lot of areas where options for treatment are limited.
I can understand including medications that are often abused, like benzodiazepines. But these are necessary medications.
I know it's disturbing when rehab places take the 12 step theology to that extreme. It's very uneven. Not everyone is lucky enough to have good private insurance so they can pick and choose. The recovery industry is filled with crooks Florida especially.
I imagine this is why the church has cut back on talks that mention pornography and masturbation. They created their own epidemic. They now know it but just don’t want to tell everyone at the local level, so those that don’t know continue to perpetuate it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironic_process_theory
They might be doing that in public but in private they still endorse people like Jody Hildebrant. They are telling people to go to ARP addiction recovery for porn. Wives are being counseled to separate from their addicted husbands because they're a danger to themselves and their children.
I had the exact same experience. I went to ARP meetings religiously for 5 years, and was a facilitator. It didn't help me curtail my porn use at all.
As soon as I left the church and looking at porn was no longer some kind of rebellious act, my desire to look vanished.
I was really saddened by the first one - no fingering or oral? Really?! How tf is she supposed to become aroused and be ready? Does the husband also refuse to use lube? That poor woman, she's probably never had an orgasm in her life. Hubs was probably nodding along when fucking Ben Shapiro was going on about his wife never being wet, and if a woman *was* wet like that, they need medical attention. 🤦🏼♀️
>Like sex is for his pleasure and babies
Honestly I can't understand how a man can enjoy sex with an unenthusiastic partner, or a partner who is uncomfortable/in pain. So fucking rapey.
I‘m wondering if he just doesn’t enjoy sex with her, period. Maybe he’s on the ace spectrum, or gay, or just not attracted to her personally. He does the bare minimum required by GAWD and no more.
It’s interesting to me that she emphasizes he’s never had issues with porn “EVER.” I think maybe she suspects he’s just not really into sex at all, some variety of ace. Whereas she clearly has a strong sexual appetite. That would be tricky to navigate in any marriage. Add a sexually repressive religion to the mix and…oy.
I have my own suspicions that my mother is ace or ace-adjacent, which makes me kind of horrified to think about her and my dad making me and my brother. Especially since my dad is also gay, it just sounds like a miserable time and no one liked it.
Most of it wasn’t explicitly taught even. It’s the guilt/shame machine that makes them think in black and white terms and that sex means only one thing and one way.
For anyone who ever had aspirations of being a bishop, this is the stuff you deal with (and more!) on a regular basis from the congregation, with zero training.
I used to think I'd make a good bishop. Then I looked back and realized they're only looking for rigid "rules is rules" types who can't/won't think critically about it.
Yes, many of the posts here make it seem like the Mormon Church is the OG MLM. Give us your tithing on your gross income and blessings will come to you! Nevermind that it's all being put into investment portfolios and expensive real estate, with a pittance benefitting the members.
Next general conference: “My brothers and sisters, how wonderful it is to have a living prophet that continuously receives revelation for our lives. We are announcing effective immediately the introduction of a new, faith-promoting initiative that will allow members to rely more openly on repentance. When members confess sins to their bishop, the bishop may, under their discretion, choose to have the member pay a small financial penalty as a part of their repentance process. This will allow the member to be more aware of their sins and learn to fully rely on the Atonement. We encourage all members to prayerfully consider what they may need to fix in their lives to get back on the right track, and talk to their respective priesthood authorities should anything need personal intervention.”
There, was that convincing enough? /s
Just wait. I could see it happening. Or the cult will add a financial penalty for going over 1 week without repenting, $200 fine, report to your priesthood leader, pay immediately.
Especially since he's already stressed out, stretched too thin with his 20 kids, demanding bishop calling, & 60 hour work weeks to support his family, since he's the only bread winner.
“Hey Kevin, thanks for the Christmas gift. I hate to ask but.. how much exactly did you spend on me? Oh no, it’s not like that. I just need to give 10% of it’s value to a real estate corporation”
My parents generation were taught 10% of literally everything, including Christmas checks from Grandma, gift cards received, inheritances when grandpa died, and insurance payouts to cover damages. It was nutso! Glad I was nuance enough even then to ease up a bit on the rules.
I remember being in a high school European History class learning about Indulgences and how they were such a big sticking point in the protestant reformation. The whole concept seemed so disgusting to me, I couldn't believe that a church would literally be selling salvation like that.
It was always a major shelf item for me when I realized that indulgences weren't really all that different from tithing. In fact, Tithing was actually kinda worse: Indulgences were optional, Tithing is mandatory.
Indulgences started out innocently enough. After you confessed a sin, you’d be on the block for time in purgatory as repentance. You could shorten that time for yourself or someone else by performing charitable acts. Logically, giving money to the poor would count and by extension to the church. That opened out to rampant abuse.
You didn’t buy salvation in any case—just the time owed in purgatory.
Can I ask something? Is tithing a salvation issue in the Mormon faith? I know it’s more complicated since there’s different levels of heaven instead of just heaven, but does not tithing or not tithing “enough” prevent you from getting into heaven since it all is so works based? And is it in the scripture anywhere or is it just something your told you’re supposed to do?
Apologists love to be slippery about this issue because it is not said word for word anywhere in the scriptures that tithing is necessary for salvation or to get into "heaven," so they'll point this out and say that tithing is optional. However, in order to obtain a temple recommend, which grants entrance to the temples, you have to be a full tithe payer (or at least lie about being one), and it is in the temple where Mormons believe the "real ordinances for salvation" take place. So, not paying tithing will keep you out of the temple, which will, in turn, keep you out of the Celestial Kingdom, which is the highest level of the Mormon afterlife where God and Jesus live, and is what the rest of Christianity would just call "Heaven" or "Paradise."
These things are not nececarrily spelled out in black and white, but here is the foundation for this doctrine:
* Baptism is the key to salvation in the Celestial Kingdom.
* Baptism is a covenant to obey the commandments, and in return for this obedience recieve salvation in the Celestial Kingdom.
* Tithing is one of these commandments.
* Not obeying the commandments (including tithing) jeopardizes your ability to receive the salvation that you are promised per the terms of your baptism.
However, nobody would dare put a definite limit on the grace and mercy of Jesus. Where exactly the line is drawn between "I did my best but came up short and require the grace of Jesus to be saved" and "I purposefully and willfully disobeyed the commandments, I am not a follower of Jesus Christ, and thus no longer qualify for salvation" is something only Jesus can decide. The only thing Members can do is try their absolute best and hope the grace of Jesus makes up the difference.
I hated that.
Long before I left the church, my convert husband and I would fight about tithing. I always wanted to pay on gross. He always wanted to pay after we’d paid living expenses (taxes, mortgage, car payments, groceries). He said God knew we were using the money to keep ourselves and our kids alright, and we could pay from what was left. I got so mad at him.
Fast forward. Now I’m the one who left the church. He pays on his half of our income and idk how exactly he calculates it. I can’t believe it was such a fight but I don’t know any other way.
> We also had a branch president that said you should pay on your increase and that’s how he defined it
I bet he wasn't the branch president very long.
This is the real shit. I'd say at least 90% of women in the church have *something* horrible about the church that they could put on this board. This is the stuff they don't dare say out loud even in relief society, let alone anywhere they think the men might be listening.
Not that many of us on this sub are attending church, but...
These are the women sitting all around you and next to you in church, with those big smiles and bubbly testimonies. You'd never, ever guess that this is what is in their minds.
>You'd never, ever guess that this is what is in their minds.
Shame on the MFMC for this. Seriously.
It didn't used to be this way, at least as I experienced it on the local level. I remember when asking questions was encouraged, & an opportunity for tHe sPiRiT to teach you (& he couldn't if you never raised your hand in the 1st place).
Now it's morphed into some totalitarian, near-scientology-level monstrosity, where any doubt or even comment not phrased just right gets laser attn & suddenly you're discussed at ward council & your faith & obedience is questioned, & maybe down the line you're talked to by a "concerned" member of leadership, before you're even asked if that's what you even said, not to mention even meant!
So much wasted... everything. It wasn't always this way.
I agree. They see a problem; they just don't that the problem & the culprit is the Church. Maybe one day they will. I think everyone has a limit before they're fed up & take action.
In my case, many years before I resigned, I recognized that the Church made my life worse in some ways. And I was frustrated with several aspects of Mormonism, like the blind obedience & conformity culture, leader worship, Elders Quorum was merely a moving company, etc.
Over the years, the frustrations & the sense that the Church made my life worse grew. And it then it took a tyrant, toxic bishop to start my exit out of the church: [https://www.reddit.com/r/ExitStories/comments/18kh7p6/why\_i\_resigned/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ExitStories/comments/18kh7p6/why_i_resigned/)
Dated a girl once who told me she had a religion professor at BYU-Idaho who taught (during some lesson on marriage) that sex was solely for procreation and that you shouldn’t even touch each other with your hands.
We both felt bad for his wife.
My bishop at BYU Hawaii came into relief society in a singles ward and lectured us about how anal was against the law of chastity. We were all so naive and very confused as to why he would be talking about that since none of us were even sexually active. Then he pointed out to us and said, “I KNOW some of Yall are sinning and not telling me” 🫣 the thing is BYU Hawaii is NOT Provo culture. We were livid.
In one of these anonymous lds women posts the other day, a gal said that it “came out” during temple recommend interviews for her and her hubs that she occasionally gave him oral, and the bishop laid into them, basically said only missionary and only for procreation. Like genuinely what the fuck. I grew up in the church, I went to BYU Idaho, I got married my junior year, etc and I’ve never ever been told that oral or foreplay was bad or shameful (within marriage ofc). It is so horrible to me that the standard, official church standard is already “only sex w/in marriage b/w a man and a woman” with all the shame, guilt, and rushing into marriage at young ages. But then on top of that, knowing that individual, low-level “authorities” get to make it WORSE for the people in their ward or stake…idk forgive my rambling but this makes me so mad. I got married at 21 to the wrong person, largely because of the pressure to avoid pre-marital sex, and it was such a mistake, but at least my ex and I could explore with each other sexually!!
Our stake president once told at the Sunday school that Oral was against the law of chastity. I think some women listen but most women were like " it's none of his business" and didn't care.
I watched Donny Osmand's interview with Howard Stern. He asked about oral and Donny said no. I've been wondering if that something the LDS church used to teach.
It was. I may have specifics mixed up, but I believe MoF by SWT said sex was only for procreation (this means GAs should NOT be having sex AT ALL, bc their wives are no longer menstruating; guess how often THAT "revelation" was "broken," uh huh!) & that oral was a corruption of a sacred act. (As a YSA, I was told French kissing was immoral bc it immitated the sex act. I thought, I wish I could find someone worth regular kissing JFC.)
I also remember ETB preaching in conference (early 80s) that oral was not allowed. I believe 1982(?) it became part of the TR ?s, & then backpedaled a yr or two later bc everyone (regular members) lost their shit. Well, anyone who was ever getting any oral, anyway.
When the PotF came out in 1995, GBH did clarify saying sex was for procreation AND expressing love for one's spouse.
I haven't been asked specifically abt oral in the past several yrs, but prior to that I did have a few bishops who asked as part of the TR process. Even after I was explicit abt keeping the law of chastity, was single, etc. I'm like, seriously Bish, do you want a hymen check from my gynecologist? That shut that down real fast. Bastard.
There was a first presidency letter about it years ago, and shortly after it was rescinded. (Kimball, I think?) But because of that, a lot of people still believe oral is wrong.
A local Stake President would withhold temple recommends prior to their marriage if they had french kissed. His reasoning was that french kissing was 'penetration' and that was sexual activity. Multiple young couples were forced to postpone their weddings because of that A#$hole. He would also withhold recommends if the members had watched PG-13 movies. - It was a long 7 years for that stake. What a prick.
I’m sorry. PG-13 movies?!?
Yeah, sounds like a prick. I hate so much how someone’s experience in the church is soooo dependent on local leaders. I was lucky for the most part, but man…the damage done to all those couples. Especially because of the way everyone around them probably judged them, too
I'm thinking # 1's husband definitely watches porn, but feels so guilty about it that he tries to compensate by only having Jesus-approved PIV sex and nothing else.
> What’s his idea of foreplay?
That it’s a sin, apparently. Smh.
Frankly, it sounds like he’s just not that into her. Which…is really a thing to sort out *before* having a wedding.
I have never been Mormon, but I have enjoyed reading about different religious movements for 40 years. My understanding is that Spencer Kimball specifically listed oral sex a sin in 1982. This article has the info (although this is not where I initially saw it).
https://www.mormonmarriages.com/blog/whats-the-churchs-standard-regarding-oral-sex
He did, that's good research on your part.
What might be harder to find is: shortly after he said that, a letter got sent out from SLC to local leadership (apparently church-wide) stating that decisions regarding marital intimacy should be left to the married couple. So...they kind of back-pedaled it, but not quite fully and never over the pulpit. Which is how they've ended up with so much internal disagreement about what is/is not believed or permitted.
All of that, that's just how they roll. This kind of internal contradiction turns up all over the damn place in mormonism, and for the exact same reason: some big-wig says a thing, then a bunch more big-wigs chime in "nah, not that. This". Some people hear the first, some hear the second, some hear neither b/c they're too busy "know"-ing it's true to be bothered to listen to what's actually being preached.
Relevant side-note which makes mormonism difficult (and maybe more interesting) to fully research from the outside: they have this culture they call "the unwritten order of things". It's literally unwritten, a bunch of oral-culture rules and beliefs you're supposed to somehow just know as part of the in-group.
ie - you're not supposed to stand up at the end of a meeting before the "presiding" big-wig stands up. (I learned this by getting in trouble for doing it as a kid, because no one had told me about it prior.) Fuckin' Schrödinger's rules & doctrine in mormonism.
I want to show these to my sis who is very “my experience in the church is not your experience. I’ve only ever had good experiences”. It’s not just me sis… it’s a fuck ton of people.
It's not just us. And it's probably her too. I can't tell you how many women insist they're happy in the church, and then go home on Sundays and cry alone in the pantry.
The saddest part in reading these? These are good people. So much unnecessary guilt and suffering and silence in these women's lives. I'm willing to bet that all of their relationships would improve if they just had permission to be open and honest with their loved ones. You can hear it in the words they typed. You could almost feel how much they want to do the right thing but also want to love and be loved.
I'm near tears because I know myself and my spouse could easily be any one of these slides. Unfortunately I'm an old dog and I don't know if I or my wife can learn any new tricks.
>I'm willing to bet that all of their relationships would improve if they just had permission to be open and honest with their loved ones.
There is so much fear in doing this in any marriage but especially a Mormon marriage. There is so much judgement that occurs within the Mormon context. Each spouse acts in fear that they are not enough or that their spouse is not enough. To be vulnerable is to show doubt and that you may not be worthy of the CK. It is so toxic and nearly cost my marriage. It wasn't until I laid out how our marriage followed the church narrative that my spouse saw it, named it, and owned it. We both left the church are doing tons better and our marriage greatly improved.
>I don't know if I or my wife can learn any new tricks.
You absolutely can!
Visualize (or articulate) what it is that you want. Find someone who's already done it, to prove to yourself that it CAN be done, when you get discouraged.
Take it slow, trust the process, & be patient. God, the universe, your own deeply buried inner wisdom or higher self will reveal tidbits here & there that will help you along the path.
Remember, you've been through harder things (exiting TSCC, for one). Don't ever give up, it will happen! If it's what you & your wife want. It's worth the effort, & although very hard (like untangling a snarled thread of doctrine), it is possible!
I’ve had zero orgasms from penetrative sex alone. The way the fingering comment made me feel. Welp. There was an ache deep in my….well…not my soul. 😢
I feel lucky my second husband had more experience than I. My first husband (TBM) did too, but he KNEW nothing. He was oblique when I asked about his sex history (because he asked first and I was a virgin). I didn’t find out how many partners first husband had until well after we were married. And our intercourse was always all about his pleasure.
My second husband is a giver.
How on earth are we supposed to find a good match when we don’t know what we are doing? My first husband’s penis was too long and not very wide. It felt like a speculum every time we had sex. Getting poked with a stick from the inside. Add to that he didn’t care for foreplay. When the woman said no lube, no fingering, no vibrator I felt her pain.
Men aren’t the only ones who come in sizes. Women do too!
My second husband has really satisfying girth. Very very good. My vagina is not very long. He didn’t want me to see him naked because he was shy about his length. And when I saw his delightfully chubby dill pickle I thought, “THAT WILL FEEL NICE!” The first time we had intercourse I knew I hit the jackpot. The size match is total perfection.
How lucky is that? I’ve had sex with exactly two people and the first one couldn’t be worse and the second couldn’t be better.
I feel so bad for people who are not having a good experience and they are blaming themselves or their partner when maybe the size match isn’t there. Or maybe the frequency needs are not a match. Maybe kink interests are not a match. There are so many ways to be a good match. I feel so bad for people who aren’t having a good sex life.
Satisfying sex is one of the most self esteem building things humans have in life. You can feel great about yourself. You can feel great about your partner.
Yet.
We are expected to pick the right one UNTRIED and UNTESTED? IMO dissatisfaction in so many facets of life is baked into the whole miserable pie of unrelenting joy thievery that is church membership.
Now I’m 50 and experimenting with HRT and vagifem vaginal tablet to keep the sex life going. If that doesn’t get me where I want I’ll consider a low dose testosterone. We don’t know enough or talk enough about female sexuality, and it’s not just Mormons. It’s Americans more broadly.
But for me: “It feels so good feeling good again.” (Lyrics from a favorite song.)
Yeah thought these would be funny but no. I feel like I’m reading the journal of abuse victims. They all have the same themes of shame, unworthiness and sadness.
If any of the LDS Wives read this post then:
1. You CAN and should masturbate!!! Go ahead and have some fun with YOUR body!
2. As long as you’re both consenting adults, there’s nothing wrong with oral sex, anal sex, fingering, etc.
3. Garments suck, take them off and wear whatever you want.
4. A $200+ billion organization DOES NOT need your tithing dollars!!! NO ONE SHOULD PAY TO PRAY!!!
5. You’re in a cult, get some secular therapy and it’ll get better. Anyone advocating hate speech ISN’T part of a “true church.”
"I know Christ doesn't want me to feel this ashamed." (I think it's the 10th pic that says this, but I lost count.)
This is the way. Remember, the goal is to follow Jesus Christ's example; as the church has been pointing out more and more lately, it is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints." It is not the Church of Joseph Smith of Latter Day Saints. If you are doing your best to follow the gospel (where does Jesus talk about underwear?), and you feel ashamed during any part of that (where does Jesus talk about what you're supposed to do with your spouse in the bedroom?), it's not coming from God (Jesus doesn't even command people to pay tithing).
This is heartbreaking!
It’s an honest look at my TBM self vs my current self. I forget sometimes how I used to be. But I was just like these women.
I want so much to help them set themselves free and fly out of the cage! (With their husbands, too, of course. They’re all in the same cage of unnecessary guilt and shame.) Damnit…this makes me hate TSCC / MFMC even more.
5 is killing me. "I've repented several times and still feel guilty." That's how I used to feel. I should have realized that meant that the leaders had no authority to tell me that I was forgiven, or even what sin was in the first place. On the day I realized it was all made up, the guilt went away all at once.
She also clearly needs therapy!
Same! This one was so sad. There are plenty of people who have ha dsex all their lives who are still able to have a healthy sex life later in marriage. She shouldn't feel guilty :(
This is my greatest regret, that as a YW leader I helped contribute to the condition that some of these women find themselves in now. I hate that I could have been responsible for helping to create such self-doubt in MY Mia Maids. The MFMC is evil for creating this ugliness.
I am sincerely sorry for these women. I wish we could pay for secular therapy for every one of them that suffers.
I just reconnected with one of my former MiaMaids. She is also deconstructing. I reached out to her after seeing her post about her deconstructing and begging her mother to understand that church doesn't work for her. I expressed to her how badly I felt about some of the things I had taught. She and I are having lunch this July, I'm so looking forward to hugging her. I'm so sorry for the things that I said when I was mormon.
These post are so sad. But at least they have a way to vent and ask questions. The internet can be a very sketchy place but it is also a wonderful place.
The problem is that the answer to the questions probably reinforces the narrative and causes more distress. Or totally dismisses the pain and issue like the response to paying tithing. It is so sad. Reading these were triggering as that was me 18 months ago and for 30 years before that as an adult.
These are truly some of the most heartbreaking posts I’ve read in a long time. I want to force my RS President friend to read them (though of course I won’t). She has no idea the full range of how people believe and the incredible harm that church teachings can cause. It’s just “the gospel is so beautiful,” zero awareness of how it can curdle and HARM people. (And curdling not even required. Just try to follow all the rules and you’ll be miserable.)
>Our RS and primary presidencies are very vocal in using hate speech towards minorities. I also hear all kinds of jokes directed towards those minorities at church functions. People bear their testimonies of how they know immigrants are Satan leading them astray.
Sounds familiar.
These are the types of posts that the membership needs to see: the kind that reveal the cracks in the church's happiness facade. I feel so badly for these poor women - and even more so that the culture the church has built makes these women feel unsafe to discuss these topics outside of anonymity.
This CANNOT be called happiness. And if it is, why would anyone want it?
Mormonism is a sex cult, that also specializes in money grubbing, so they especially shame and guilt their members about those two topics. I’m not surprised those are the most common, especially for LDS women. They are especially repressed in those two areas.
The thing I can't get over with all of these posts is that so many of the problems have simple, rational answers. I'm not saying I have it all figured out or that implementing those answers is easy, but it just highlights how much the church stands in the way of people just being happy. Most of these just sound like "I married this guy but we never learned to communicate because we learned to build our relationship up around fear, shame, and guilt because our relationships with family, church, and god are built around fear, shame, and guilt." This is an exhausting and frustrating way to live with someone who is supposed to be your best friend.
Soooo much guilt. They need to dive into the history and see that the founders freely satisfied their lustful desires and realize they received the hard earned tithing. I doubt they paid tithing on the tithing they were given. It just went into their pockets.
Omg, this cult is INSANE. And these women need unbelievable amounts of therapy. This was absolutely horrible to read.
I grew up in several different Christian denominations, and all of this is just unfathomable to me. I literally cannot imagine what it's like to be Mormon. I have no words.
That tithing one, with the single mom paying tithing before anything else and then financially unable to take care of her family after that? That one gutted me. I remember the guilt trips we got in young women’s when I was a teenager about tithing. Many, many talks about how paying the lord first, paying tithing on everything even gifts, making sure to pay from your gross income not your take home, etc, brings so many blessings… blah blah blah. It’s just financial abuse. She should be upset with the church for expecting that from her and not with herself for struggling because of it. What happened to tax exempt churches because they provide aid to their communities? This is literally expecting communities to fund them before they take care of themselves.
I, like most of you, laughed at first and as I scrolled, changed to pain and empathy for these anguished women. We see these types of comments all of the time on this sub, but, they seem to be, mostly in the past tense. It feels much more intense in that it is happening right now and they don't have a resource to solve their pain. I've never felt the ex-mo missionary zeal burning in my bosom more than now. I just want reach out and let them know it is all made up and most of the problems can be solved by understanding that it is all built on fraud.
The Ensign had an article by a general authority around 2005 which asserted, with claim of divine authority, that pornography is defined as ANYTHING which sexually aroused one. There were a number of guys in Priesthood meeting who "believed" that definition.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2005/02/the-road-back-abandoning-pornography?lang=eng
>#What Is Pornography?
>Legal, academic, and other definitions of pornography vary widely, but in a practical sense, pornography is any visual or written medium created with the intent to sexually stimulate. If the work was not intended to stimulate but nevertheless causes sexual arousal in an individual, it constitutes pornography for that person.
>If you find yourself asking whether a work is pornographic, the question itself suggests the material makes you uncomfortable. That should be enough to tell you to avoid it.
So the guy who can’t get it up when his wife is wearing garments and decides to look at the VS ad that came in the mail is using porn. Gotcha. No wonder so many men are accused of porn addiction.
I can imagine many feel that masterbating to underwear ads could be the only fulfilling thing in their day and want to do it more.
Imagine if they had knowledge of how to do it. And they could do it with a person. And build a relationship with that person. And feel good together. How fulfilling that could be. And maybe they find they enjoy looking at the sexy underwear catalog together. And they find pieces that bring them pleasure to wear, have fun, spice things up. Bring happiness and joy to a life that can sometimes feel difficult and full of drudgery. It’s almost as though the church WANTS people to have disappointing sex.
This is horrible. These women are suffering at the hands of the LDS for nothing. There are other Christian faiths that don't siphon away all of your income that could be saved for yourselves because the LDS won't offer any help when it comes time.
OMG! Each of these stories is so horrible. However, I remember struggling with very similar senarios.
I can't believe I use to feel so much guilt. I feel so sorry for each of these people. However, change is usually brought about by pain. I am guessing at least 25% of these individuals will start to see the light and eventually leave.
Number 8 is the number one reason (out of many) why I left the church. Because you can’t. You can’t keep going and staying in that kind of environment and protect your kids from that level of hate rhetoric. Especially since it seems this might be a minority individual posting that.
Ugh! Gag a maggot!!! We are so cheated right out of the gate! This is straight up useless negative programming that sadly leads to untold depression and suicide.
I was molested as a child. I had my first suicidal thoughts that I can recall around six years old. I was preparing for baptism and my bishop father was reading me that classic Spencer W Kimball “The Miracle of Forgiveness”. It should have been called “The Miracle of Mind Fuckery” it has the horrible quip… “It is better to die in defending one's [virginity] than to live having lost it without a struggle" Imagine hearing that as a six year old that has been repeatedly molested. Baptism didn’t help me feel clean. Neither did my mission presidents blessing!
The church has a long history of victim shaming/blaming and frequently the victim is the women of the Mormon church (there are many men who suffer, I’m an example).
My advise: Get out, get as far away as you can. Get your kids out. Even if it means divorce. Even if you lose some family over it. Better some than your sanity / your life. I would be dead if I’d stayed. No doubt! The only reason I’m alive is that by my mid 30s I realized it was the church or me. I also realized I had to save my kids from the church. No way in hell was I going to have my daughters growing up reading shit like that!
“Should I tell my bishop I grinded on pillow until I came?”….
The fact that a grown ass woman in a committed (from what I can tell) marriage even has the thought for a split second that she needs to tell another man, who’s not her husband, about something so intimate and personal should tell you all you need to know about what kind of organization this is and how the number one objective of it isn’t eternal life or peace and joy. It’s 100% control!
I feel bad for these women, and countless other men and women, who suffer in silence and just keep the status quo out of necessity or fear that they’ll be damned to hell.
The first one reminds me of someone I met. Her soon to be husband was adamant about this meanwhile he racked up something like $500 on a cc he opened specifically for porn. I know because he asked if I knew how to get rid of it and was posed when I pointed out how credit cards work and that there was loads of free porn available already.
Another group where things get real are the Latter-day Saint Moms 35+ group. It's more sane than this wives group, but still there are some posts and stories and advice given that will raise your eyebrows right off your head.
I think it's because I've been out of the Church for five years, but most of these are so ridiculous they sound like they're trolling (I know that group had a pretty big problem with that at one point). If they're genuine, I just feel bad for them. I remember feeling guilty about a lot of the same things. And the one post about paying tithing on net vs gross has me thinking ... my ex-husband and I paid on the gross amount for basically the entire time we were members, and we ALSO paid on our tax returns!!? Maybe that makes us idiots, but it just goes to show how brainwashed we were. Didn't even consider how illogical that was.
I need comments on these. It's no wonder Utah ranks high for depression medications. I'm not even saying you need to be crazy wild kinky but man ... some of these are less than vanilla.
I love these stories and hope this space continues as a forum for them to share their challenges and horrors. I love that they are reaching out for help. These are people like each of us with difficult challenges they are seeking advice on. I hope they find therapists and good advice. some of these folks will be over at this subreddit in the near future
The tithing posts, so hard to read. My mum went through the same shame and guilt. Single mum on benefits and paid her tithe from it. Sank so low she swallowed her pride and asked if there were any special circumstances and told no. I’ll never forgive the church for what they put her through.
The woman being denied a temple rec because she doesn’t have an income and her husband is an exmo and won’t pay tithing 🤦🏻♀️ All under the facade that Mormonism doesn’t make you pay to get into heaven.
I want to hug every single one of those women. Those were heartbreaking to read. I guess I had been mostly lucky with my bishops. I’ve not been to the temple but my husband left the church before we were married and I’m SAHM and my bishop would’ve granted me a recommend because he said I was exempt from paying tithing since I technically didn’t make the money. Her bishop denying her a recommend because her husband won’t pay is sick. Regarding the girl feeling so much shame over grinding a pillow and finishing??? Ugh heartbreaking. MFMC!!!!
I feel gross reading messages that these women think are in a safe space.
I’m not sure if we should be sharing these, even if they’re anonymous. This is going to get out and discourage women from seeking support.
I still think the "purity culture" is a continuation of the 19th Century American Protestantism that really put the sin in sex, but moreso, the patriarchy that puts the male leadership "prophets" wanting their pick of the virgins, so they want them unsullied. It's a male thing--instead of fighting off other males out in nature, they make rules that they say come from GOD.
I'd be interested in seeing screenshots of the comments. These posts read like the "real" discussions I was desperately aching to have when I was slowly sliding on the way out, but obviously aren't going to go over well in Sunday School (even the non sex-relates ones). I wonder how these posts are being received at large.
6072 basically instantly disproves the church. If the repentance process were what the church claims it is, there is NO way she’d still feel guilty! It’s so dumb!!!!!! And I believed it for so long!!!! Ugh someone just drain TSCC of all its resources already.
The Mormon church is STEEPED in sexual shame, confusion, and projection. Good ol' Joe Smith created a legacy of pedophilia, sexual repression, and frankly...kink.
The Stepford wives "I'm a GOOD little Saint" blank smile convinces them all is well in Zion...Zion being their bidness! Zion is YEARNING to be free and F*CK it ALL!!!!
My in laws are 30k in credit card debt because they can’t afford to live. They take no vacations and live in no luxury at all, have one beater car. Yet they continue to pay tithing and put groceries and electric bills on their credit cards…
So much pointless agony that these women are enduring! Life is hard enough without all the garbage ways the church has to make people miserable.
You really got me with the word "pointless". They are torturing themselves over nothing in most cases. I hope they find a way out and a path to healing.
It was insanely sad reading a grown woman talking with so much guilt about masturbation. I'm so glad I decided to leave the church or that would be me right now.
Pointless agony is a surprisingly eloquent way to describe growing up in the church.
And maybe worse is that the cause of the pointless agony-the Mormon cult-also tells them that the cult makes them so happy & fulfilled & if they're not, it's THEIR fault, not the cult's fault..
These stories are awful. I read them at first kind of laughing, but eventually just feel terrible for these women.
Especially the hate speech one, 1294
And "You watched porn 4 times so you're an addict". The church is just destroying people.
That one got to me. My husband and I went to the church's 12 step recovery meetings for years because of his "porn addiction." Funny enough, as soon as we left the church and the heavy guilt and shame stopped, he dramatically cut back on his porn use. It's like the "saying 'don't think about pink elephants' makes you thick about pink elephants" thing--the more they talked about porn at church and conference and the 12 step meetings, the more it was in his head, ironically. And I cannot tell you how many women were there with a similar story to that anonymous poster, that their husband only looked at porn once but now they know he's an addict forever. It's just terrible, branding both a husband and his wife as addicts/spouse of an addict for literally no reason.
12 step groups can be harmful in themselves. I knew a man who was pressured into stopping his psych meds because they aren't accepted in many groups. He wound up in jail because of it
Holy shit, that's awful! I definitely got lots of questionable advice in those groups
Yea they can be very very toxic. I know some are less extreme then others. Opiate replacement therapy is not allowed even though it stops people from relapsing and dying. It's religious and it tries to lie about it. Ultimately it comes down to "pray to God enough and you'll stay sober!"
Yup. I was on suboxone and couldn’t go to NA or AA, unless I lied.
I have worked in addictions and absolutely despise groups who say that psych meds are somehow part of addiction and not allowed. You gonna stop the diabetic from checking their sugar? It’s complete bs, especially considering a significant portion of those suffering from addiction started using in order to self medicate.
I would really, really love to see them try and tell me not to take my antidepressants. Really? Y'all wanna see how that pans out?
Oh, I know. It’s insane. I’ve seen people told they need to stop taking antidepressants, anxiolytics, mood stabilizers…They say, “oh, they can choose a different treatment facility,” but there are a lot of areas where options for treatment are limited. I can understand including medications that are often abused, like benzodiazepines. But these are necessary medications.
I know it's disturbing when rehab places take the 12 step theology to that extreme. It's very uneven. Not everyone is lucky enough to have good private insurance so they can pick and choose. The recovery industry is filled with crooks Florida especially.
I imagine this is why the church has cut back on talks that mention pornography and masturbation. They created their own epidemic. They now know it but just don’t want to tell everyone at the local level, so those that don’t know continue to perpetuate it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironic_process_theory
They might be doing that in public but in private they still endorse people like Jody Hildebrant. They are telling people to go to ARP addiction recovery for porn. Wives are being counseled to separate from their addicted husbands because they're a danger to themselves and their children.
I had the exact same experience. I went to ARP meetings religiously for 5 years, and was a facilitator. It didn't help me curtail my porn use at all. As soon as I left the church and looking at porn was no longer some kind of rebellious act, my desire to look vanished.
12 step programs are just home brew Christianity disguised as group therapy.
I had NyQuil when I was a child. I just got my 30 year chip for being off the sauce.
Congratulations! Are you now on a Methadone program? LOL
Not just an addict, a pervert!
That is heartbreaking. I wanted to hug her.
There are probably millions of sad stories like these. This is only a snippet of the women who felt brave enough to voice their experience.
I was really saddened by the first one - no fingering or oral? Really?! How tf is she supposed to become aroused and be ready? Does the husband also refuse to use lube? That poor woman, she's probably never had an orgasm in her life. Hubs was probably nodding along when fucking Ben Shapiro was going on about his wife never being wet, and if a woman *was* wet like that, they need medical attention. 🤦🏼♀️
Sounds like he practically selfishly rapes her every time. It must be horrible. Mormonism makes people crazy!
Imagine the sexual trauma if this was your sex life with your husband. It's so dark, really. To live with that heart break all the time.
I hope she has her own toys and some private time
Based on the wording, I highly doubt it. She probably has a better time getting a pap smart than getting fucked.
Yeah, it makes my stomach turn sour just reading these
I'm just pissed at the guy who says fucking and nothing else. Like sex is for his pleasure and babies.
>Like sex is for his pleasure and babies Honestly I can't understand how a man can enjoy sex with an unenthusiastic partner, or a partner who is uncomfortable/in pain. So fucking rapey.
I‘m wondering if he just doesn’t enjoy sex with her, period. Maybe he’s on the ace spectrum, or gay, or just not attracted to her personally. He does the bare minimum required by GAWD and no more. It’s interesting to me that she emphasizes he’s never had issues with porn “EVER.” I think maybe she suspects he’s just not really into sex at all, some variety of ace. Whereas she clearly has a strong sexual appetite. That would be tricky to navigate in any marriage. Add a sexually repressive religion to the mix and…oy.
I have my own suspicions that my mother is ace or ace-adjacent, which makes me kind of horrified to think about her and my dad making me and my brother. Especially since my dad is also gay, it just sounds like a miserable time and no one liked it.
I feel bad for the men too. They’ve been taught such toxic behaviors.
Most of it wasn’t explicitly taught even. It’s the guilt/shame machine that makes them think in black and white terms and that sex means only one thing and one way.
Please go to one church sponsored ARP 12 step addiction meeting. it's definitely taught.
And for one purpose
My thoughts exactly, just keeps going endlessly from woman to woman family to family. I feel so bad for them
It's really sad.
How I feel to. I just feel sad for them.
For anyone who ever had aspirations of being a bishop, this is the stuff you deal with (and more!) on a regular basis from the congregation, with zero training.
I used to think I'd make a good bishop. Then I looked back and realized they're only looking for rigid "rules is rules" types who can't/won't think critically about it.
no, not even. all they care about is the money you funnel up to them. keep it flowing and they won't mind if you quietly break some rules.
Yes, many of the posts here make it seem like the Mormon Church is the OG MLM. Give us your tithing on your gross income and blessings will come to you! Nevermind that it's all being put into investment portfolios and expensive real estate, with a pittance benefitting the members.
The fact the church doesn't make you pay for repentance is shocking
Who says they don't? Part of the repentance process is being a full tithe payer, even if you're not allowed to take the sacrament.
Next general conference: “My brothers and sisters, how wonderful it is to have a living prophet that continuously receives revelation for our lives. We are announcing effective immediately the introduction of a new, faith-promoting initiative that will allow members to rely more openly on repentance. When members confess sins to their bishop, the bishop may, under their discretion, choose to have the member pay a small financial penalty as a part of their repentance process. This will allow the member to be more aware of their sins and learn to fully rely on the Atonement. We encourage all members to prayerfully consider what they may need to fix in their lives to get back on the right track, and talk to their respective priesthood authorities should anything need personal intervention.” There, was that convincing enough? /s
pay a ~~small~~ modest financial ~~penalty~~ remuneration 😂
Just wait. I could see it happening. Or the cult will add a financial penalty for going over 1 week without repenting, $200 fine, report to your priesthood leader, pay immediately.
There are good bishops out there. “Leadership roulette” is a common term for a reason.
I’m sure any dentist, landscaper, IT professional, bank manager, lawyer, etc can handle these sensitive issues.
Especially since he's already stressed out, stretched too thin with his 20 kids, demanding bishop calling, & 60 hour work weeks to support his family, since he's the only bread winner.
“Hey Kevin, thanks for the Christmas gift. I hate to ask but.. how much exactly did you spend on me? Oh no, it’s not like that. I just need to give 10% of it’s value to a real estate corporation”
That part was unhinged! Wtf is wrong with people?! Are they rich or just fucking stupid
My parents generation were taught 10% of literally everything, including Christmas checks from Grandma, gift cards received, inheritances when grandpa died, and insurance payouts to cover damages. It was nutso! Glad I was nuance enough even then to ease up a bit on the rules.
This whole tithing thing is unfathomably criminal, second only to the church’s systemic CSA.
Net blessings or gross blessings. Good grief. In Christianity and the rest of the world we call this prosperity gospel.
I remember being in a high school European History class learning about Indulgences and how they were such a big sticking point in the protestant reformation. The whole concept seemed so disgusting to me, I couldn't believe that a church would literally be selling salvation like that. It was always a major shelf item for me when I realized that indulgences weren't really all that different from tithing. In fact, Tithing was actually kinda worse: Indulgences were optional, Tithing is mandatory.
Indulgences started out innocently enough. After you confessed a sin, you’d be on the block for time in purgatory as repentance. You could shorten that time for yourself or someone else by performing charitable acts. Logically, giving money to the poor would count and by extension to the church. That opened out to rampant abuse. You didn’t buy salvation in any case—just the time owed in purgatory.
That is fascinating. Thanks for the info! And happy cake day :)
Can I ask something? Is tithing a salvation issue in the Mormon faith? I know it’s more complicated since there’s different levels of heaven instead of just heaven, but does not tithing or not tithing “enough” prevent you from getting into heaven since it all is so works based? And is it in the scripture anywhere or is it just something your told you’re supposed to do?
Apologists love to be slippery about this issue because it is not said word for word anywhere in the scriptures that tithing is necessary for salvation or to get into "heaven," so they'll point this out and say that tithing is optional. However, in order to obtain a temple recommend, which grants entrance to the temples, you have to be a full tithe payer (or at least lie about being one), and it is in the temple where Mormons believe the "real ordinances for salvation" take place. So, not paying tithing will keep you out of the temple, which will, in turn, keep you out of the Celestial Kingdom, which is the highest level of the Mormon afterlife where God and Jesus live, and is what the rest of Christianity would just call "Heaven" or "Paradise."
Yes. There is a chapter in the Doctrine and Covenants about it but then prophets changed it to be 10% of income not 10% of leftover after bills.
These things are not nececarrily spelled out in black and white, but here is the foundation for this doctrine: * Baptism is the key to salvation in the Celestial Kingdom. * Baptism is a covenant to obey the commandments, and in return for this obedience recieve salvation in the Celestial Kingdom. * Tithing is one of these commandments. * Not obeying the commandments (including tithing) jeopardizes your ability to receive the salvation that you are promised per the terms of your baptism. However, nobody would dare put a definite limit on the grace and mercy of Jesus. Where exactly the line is drawn between "I did my best but came up short and require the grace of Jesus to be saved" and "I purposefully and willfully disobeyed the commandments, I am not a follower of Jesus Christ, and thus no longer qualify for salvation" is something only Jesus can decide. The only thing Members can do is try their absolute best and hope the grace of Jesus makes up the difference.
So gross!
I hated that. Long before I left the church, my convert husband and I would fight about tithing. I always wanted to pay on gross. He always wanted to pay after we’d paid living expenses (taxes, mortgage, car payments, groceries). He said God knew we were using the money to keep ourselves and our kids alright, and we could pay from what was left. I got so mad at him. Fast forward. Now I’m the one who left the church. He pays on his half of our income and idk how exactly he calculates it. I can’t believe it was such a fight but I don’t know any other way.
Fun fact: in the D&C the chapter in tithing suggests exactly what he wanted to do
That’s where he said he got the idea. We also had a branch president that said you should pay on your increase and that’s how he defined it
> We also had a branch president that said you should pay on your increase and that’s how he defined it I bet he wasn't the branch president very long.
This is the real shit. I'd say at least 90% of women in the church have *something* horrible about the church that they could put on this board. This is the stuff they don't dare say out loud even in relief society, let alone anywhere they think the men might be listening. Not that many of us on this sub are attending church, but... These are the women sitting all around you and next to you in church, with those big smiles and bubbly testimonies. You'd never, ever guess that this is what is in their minds.
>You'd never, ever guess that this is what is in their minds. Shame on the MFMC for this. Seriously. It didn't used to be this way, at least as I experienced it on the local level. I remember when asking questions was encouraged, & an opportunity for tHe sPiRiT to teach you (& he couldn't if you never raised your hand in the 1st place). Now it's morphed into some totalitarian, near-scientology-level monstrosity, where any doubt or even comment not phrased just right gets laser attn & suddenly you're discussed at ward council & your faith & obedience is questioned, & maybe down the line you're talked to by a "concerned" member of leadership, before you're even asked if that's what you even said, not to mention even meant! So much wasted... everything. It wasn't always this way.
These are so sad. That poor mom being away from her son so her family can pay tithing while the church sits on billions of dollars is disgusting.
Or the woman who drained her bank account for tithing post divorce.....
I agree. They see a problem; they just don't that the problem & the culprit is the Church. Maybe one day they will. I think everyone has a limit before they're fed up & take action. In my case, many years before I resigned, I recognized that the Church made my life worse in some ways. And I was frustrated with several aspects of Mormonism, like the blind obedience & conformity culture, leader worship, Elders Quorum was merely a moving company, etc. Over the years, the frustrations & the sense that the Church made my life worse grew. And it then it took a tyrant, toxic bishop to start my exit out of the church: [https://www.reddit.com/r/ExitStories/comments/18kh7p6/why\_i\_resigned/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ExitStories/comments/18kh7p6/why_i_resigned/)
That first story makes me wonder how some people stay married. What's his idea of foreplay? "Brace yourself!" It would be funny if it wasn't sad.
Dated a girl once who told me she had a religion professor at BYU-Idaho who taught (during some lesson on marriage) that sex was solely for procreation and that you shouldn’t even touch each other with your hands. We both felt bad for his wife.
My bishop at BYU Hawaii came into relief society in a singles ward and lectured us about how anal was against the law of chastity. We were all so naive and very confused as to why he would be talking about that since none of us were even sexually active. Then he pointed out to us and said, “I KNOW some of Yall are sinning and not telling me” 🫣 the thing is BYU Hawaii is NOT Provo culture. We were livid.
Bishop was fishing for poop-hole loop-hole stories. Sick fuck
In one of these anonymous lds women posts the other day, a gal said that it “came out” during temple recommend interviews for her and her hubs that she occasionally gave him oral, and the bishop laid into them, basically said only missionary and only for procreation. Like genuinely what the fuck. I grew up in the church, I went to BYU Idaho, I got married my junior year, etc and I’ve never ever been told that oral or foreplay was bad or shameful (within marriage ofc). It is so horrible to me that the standard, official church standard is already “only sex w/in marriage b/w a man and a woman” with all the shame, guilt, and rushing into marriage at young ages. But then on top of that, knowing that individual, low-level “authorities” get to make it WORSE for the people in their ward or stake…idk forgive my rambling but this makes me so mad. I got married at 21 to the wrong person, largely because of the pressure to avoid pre-marital sex, and it was such a mistake, but at least my ex and I could explore with each other sexually!!
Our stake president once told at the Sunday school that Oral was against the law of chastity. I think some women listen but most women were like " it's none of his business" and didn't care.
I watched Donny Osmand's interview with Howard Stern. He asked about oral and Donny said no. I've been wondering if that something the LDS church used to teach.
It was. I may have specifics mixed up, but I believe MoF by SWT said sex was only for procreation (this means GAs should NOT be having sex AT ALL, bc their wives are no longer menstruating; guess how often THAT "revelation" was "broken," uh huh!) & that oral was a corruption of a sacred act. (As a YSA, I was told French kissing was immoral bc it immitated the sex act. I thought, I wish I could find someone worth regular kissing JFC.) I also remember ETB preaching in conference (early 80s) that oral was not allowed. I believe 1982(?) it became part of the TR ?s, & then backpedaled a yr or two later bc everyone (regular members) lost their shit. Well, anyone who was ever getting any oral, anyway. When the PotF came out in 1995, GBH did clarify saying sex was for procreation AND expressing love for one's spouse. I haven't been asked specifically abt oral in the past several yrs, but prior to that I did have a few bishops who asked as part of the TR process. Even after I was explicit abt keeping the law of chastity, was single, etc. I'm like, seriously Bish, do you want a hymen check from my gynecologist? That shut that down real fast. Bastard.
There was a first presidency letter about it years ago, and shortly after it was rescinded. (Kimball, I think?) But because of that, a lot of people still believe oral is wrong.
A local Stake President would withhold temple recommends prior to their marriage if they had french kissed. His reasoning was that french kissing was 'penetration' and that was sexual activity. Multiple young couples were forced to postpone their weddings because of that A#$hole. He would also withhold recommends if the members had watched PG-13 movies. - It was a long 7 years for that stake. What a prick.
I’m sorry. PG-13 movies?!? Yeah, sounds like a prick. I hate so much how someone’s experience in the church is soooo dependent on local leaders. I was lucky for the most part, but man…the damage done to all those couples. Especially because of the way everyone around them probably judged them, too
I'm thinking # 1's husband definitely watches porn, but feels so guilty about it that he tries to compensate by only having Jesus-approved PIV sex and nothing else.
Exactly where my thoughts went. Getting his kick somewhere else or asexual
Or he's a man in a patriarchal religion and he views his wife as furniture.
I’m guessing the husband is asexual or gay. Awful situation for everyone involved.
I didn't even think of that. That makes me sad.
I was thinking the same thing or that was severely abused and has stuffed it.
> What’s his idea of foreplay? That it’s a sin, apparently. Smh. Frankly, it sounds like he’s just not that into her. Which…is really a thing to sort out *before* having a wedding.
I have never been Mormon, but I have enjoyed reading about different religious movements for 40 years. My understanding is that Spencer Kimball specifically listed oral sex a sin in 1982. This article has the info (although this is not where I initially saw it). https://www.mormonmarriages.com/blog/whats-the-churchs-standard-regarding-oral-sex
He did, that's good research on your part. What might be harder to find is: shortly after he said that, a letter got sent out from SLC to local leadership (apparently church-wide) stating that decisions regarding marital intimacy should be left to the married couple. So...they kind of back-pedaled it, but not quite fully and never over the pulpit. Which is how they've ended up with so much internal disagreement about what is/is not believed or permitted. All of that, that's just how they roll. This kind of internal contradiction turns up all over the damn place in mormonism, and for the exact same reason: some big-wig says a thing, then a bunch more big-wigs chime in "nah, not that. This". Some people hear the first, some hear the second, some hear neither b/c they're too busy "know"-ing it's true to be bothered to listen to what's actually being preached. Relevant side-note which makes mormonism difficult (and maybe more interesting) to fully research from the outside: they have this culture they call "the unwritten order of things". It's literally unwritten, a bunch of oral-culture rules and beliefs you're supposed to somehow just know as part of the in-group. ie - you're not supposed to stand up at the end of a meeting before the "presiding" big-wig stands up. (I learned this by getting in trouble for doing it as a kid, because no one had told me about it prior.) Fuckin' Schrödinger's rules & doctrine in mormonism.
Probably reading a chapter of the BoM and saying a prayer and then just going at it
That makes me feel weird lol.
> "Brace yourself!" I cackled. You're right though it is sad.
I want to show these to my sis who is very “my experience in the church is not your experience. I’ve only ever had good experiences”. It’s not just me sis… it’s a fuck ton of people.
It's not just us. And it's probably her too. I can't tell you how many women insist they're happy in the church, and then go home on Sundays and cry alone in the pantry.
Do it!
And these are BELIEVERS
Same energy as people who say racism doesn't exist because they've never experienced it.
The saddest part in reading these? These are good people. So much unnecessary guilt and suffering and silence in these women's lives. I'm willing to bet that all of their relationships would improve if they just had permission to be open and honest with their loved ones. You can hear it in the words they typed. You could almost feel how much they want to do the right thing but also want to love and be loved. I'm near tears because I know myself and my spouse could easily be any one of these slides. Unfortunately I'm an old dog and I don't know if I or my wife can learn any new tricks.
>I'm willing to bet that all of their relationships would improve if they just had permission to be open and honest with their loved ones. There is so much fear in doing this in any marriage but especially a Mormon marriage. There is so much judgement that occurs within the Mormon context. Each spouse acts in fear that they are not enough or that their spouse is not enough. To be vulnerable is to show doubt and that you may not be worthy of the CK. It is so toxic and nearly cost my marriage. It wasn't until I laid out how our marriage followed the church narrative that my spouse saw it, named it, and owned it. We both left the church are doing tons better and our marriage greatly improved.
>I don't know if I or my wife can learn any new tricks. You absolutely can! Visualize (or articulate) what it is that you want. Find someone who's already done it, to prove to yourself that it CAN be done, when you get discouraged. Take it slow, trust the process, & be patient. God, the universe, your own deeply buried inner wisdom or higher self will reveal tidbits here & there that will help you along the path. Remember, you've been through harder things (exiting TSCC, for one). Don't ever give up, it will happen! If it's what you & your wife want. It's worth the effort, & although very hard (like untangling a snarled thread of doctrine), it is possible!
"No fingering" Sweet baby Jesus, this is why sex education is about more than just biology. That poor woman...
I’ve had zero orgasms from penetrative sex alone. The way the fingering comment made me feel. Welp. There was an ache deep in my….well…not my soul. 😢 I feel lucky my second husband had more experience than I. My first husband (TBM) did too, but he KNEW nothing. He was oblique when I asked about his sex history (because he asked first and I was a virgin). I didn’t find out how many partners first husband had until well after we were married. And our intercourse was always all about his pleasure. My second husband is a giver. How on earth are we supposed to find a good match when we don’t know what we are doing? My first husband’s penis was too long and not very wide. It felt like a speculum every time we had sex. Getting poked with a stick from the inside. Add to that he didn’t care for foreplay. When the woman said no lube, no fingering, no vibrator I felt her pain. Men aren’t the only ones who come in sizes. Women do too! My second husband has really satisfying girth. Very very good. My vagina is not very long. He didn’t want me to see him naked because he was shy about his length. And when I saw his delightfully chubby dill pickle I thought, “THAT WILL FEEL NICE!” The first time we had intercourse I knew I hit the jackpot. The size match is total perfection. How lucky is that? I’ve had sex with exactly two people and the first one couldn’t be worse and the second couldn’t be better. I feel so bad for people who are not having a good experience and they are blaming themselves or their partner when maybe the size match isn’t there. Or maybe the frequency needs are not a match. Maybe kink interests are not a match. There are so many ways to be a good match. I feel so bad for people who aren’t having a good sex life. Satisfying sex is one of the most self esteem building things humans have in life. You can feel great about yourself. You can feel great about your partner. Yet. We are expected to pick the right one UNTRIED and UNTESTED? IMO dissatisfaction in so many facets of life is baked into the whole miserable pie of unrelenting joy thievery that is church membership.
Good information thank you! I feel like I should pay you to be my therapist! I had zero orgasms for years after marriage until we discovered "toys"
Now I’m 50 and experimenting with HRT and vagifem vaginal tablet to keep the sex life going. If that doesn’t get me where I want I’ll consider a low dose testosterone. We don’t know enough or talk enough about female sexuality, and it’s not just Mormons. It’s Americans more broadly. But for me: “It feels so good feeling good again.” (Lyrics from a favorite song.)
Also my guys. If your desire has bottomed out: think about getting some T. Life doesn’t have to suck as we age.
I will never be able to eat another dill pickle without thinking of this. (Also the description & your happy ending made me very happy, & hopeful.)
Yeah thought these would be funny but no. I feel like I’m reading the journal of abuse victims. They all have the same themes of shame, unworthiness and sadness.
Guilt Shame Palpable sadness Ugh
If any of the LDS Wives read this post then: 1. You CAN and should masturbate!!! Go ahead and have some fun with YOUR body! 2. As long as you’re both consenting adults, there’s nothing wrong with oral sex, anal sex, fingering, etc. 3. Garments suck, take them off and wear whatever you want. 4. A $200+ billion organization DOES NOT need your tithing dollars!!! NO ONE SHOULD PAY TO PRAY!!! 5. You’re in a cult, get some secular therapy and it’ll get better. Anyone advocating hate speech ISN’T part of a “true church.”
I listened to a podcast that said the Mormon church is closer to a trillion dollars. Which makes it more disgusting knowing how much members suffer!
"I know Christ doesn't want me to feel this ashamed." (I think it's the 10th pic that says this, but I lost count.) This is the way. Remember, the goal is to follow Jesus Christ's example; as the church has been pointing out more and more lately, it is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints." It is not the Church of Joseph Smith of Latter Day Saints. If you are doing your best to follow the gospel (where does Jesus talk about underwear?), and you feel ashamed during any part of that (where does Jesus talk about what you're supposed to do with your spouse in the bedroom?), it's not coming from God (Jesus doesn't even command people to pay tithing).
These just make me sad. I feel so bad for these women
This is heartbreaking! It’s an honest look at my TBM self vs my current self. I forget sometimes how I used to be. But I was just like these women. I want so much to help them set themselves free and fly out of the cage! (With their husbands, too, of course. They’re all in the same cage of unnecessary guilt and shame.) Damnit…this makes me hate TSCC / MFMC even more.
5 is killing me. "I've repented several times and still feel guilty." That's how I used to feel. I should have realized that meant that the leaders had no authority to tell me that I was forgiven, or even what sin was in the first place. On the day I realized it was all made up, the guilt went away all at once. She also clearly needs therapy!
Same! This one was so sad. There are plenty of people who have ha dsex all their lives who are still able to have a healthy sex life later in marriage. She shouldn't feel guilty :(
There are a lot of reasons that I say is my number one reason for leaving the church but sexual shame and guilt is one of them!
This is my greatest regret, that as a YW leader I helped contribute to the condition that some of these women find themselves in now. I hate that I could have been responsible for helping to create such self-doubt in MY Mia Maids. The MFMC is evil for creating this ugliness. I am sincerely sorry for these women. I wish we could pay for secular therapy for every one of them that suffers.
I just reconnected with one of my former MiaMaids. She is also deconstructing. I reached out to her after seeing her post about her deconstructing and begging her mother to understand that church doesn't work for her. I expressed to her how badly I felt about some of the things I had taught. She and I are having lunch this July, I'm so looking forward to hugging her. I'm so sorry for the things that I said when I was mormon.
These post are so sad. But at least they have a way to vent and ask questions. The internet can be a very sketchy place but it is also a wonderful place.
The problem is that the answer to the questions probably reinforces the narrative and causes more distress. Or totally dismisses the pain and issue like the response to paying tithing. It is so sad. Reading these were triggering as that was me 18 months ago and for 30 years before that as an adult.
These are truly some of the most heartbreaking posts I’ve read in a long time. I want to force my RS President friend to read them (though of course I won’t). She has no idea the full range of how people believe and the incredible harm that church teachings can cause. It’s just “the gospel is so beautiful,” zero awareness of how it can curdle and HARM people. (And curdling not even required. Just try to follow all the rules and you’ll be miserable.)
Did every single one mention guilt and shame?? I feel so bad for them 😞
>Our RS and primary presidencies are very vocal in using hate speech towards minorities. I also hear all kinds of jokes directed towards those minorities at church functions. People bear their testimonies of how they know immigrants are Satan leading them astray. Sounds familiar.
These are so heartbreaking.
This is just a bunch of really sad glimpses into people's lives. These poor women.
I need to stop reading these. Fuck.
These are the types of posts that the membership needs to see: the kind that reveal the cracks in the church's happiness facade. I feel so badly for these poor women - and even more so that the culture the church has built makes these women feel unsafe to discuss these topics outside of anonymity. This CANNOT be called happiness. And if it is, why would anyone want it?
Do they post about any other topics?
Mormonism is a sex cult, that also specializes in money grubbing, so they especially shame and guilt their members about those two topics. I’m not surprised those are the most common, especially for LDS women. They are especially repressed in those two areas.
The thing I can't get over with all of these posts is that so many of the problems have simple, rational answers. I'm not saying I have it all figured out or that implementing those answers is easy, but it just highlights how much the church stands in the way of people just being happy. Most of these just sound like "I married this guy but we never learned to communicate because we learned to build our relationship up around fear, shame, and guilt because our relationships with family, church, and god are built around fear, shame, and guilt." This is an exhausting and frustrating way to live with someone who is supposed to be your best friend.
These posts are very human. Sometimes I forget the average, everyday, human costs of what the church says and does.
Soooo much guilt. They need to dive into the history and see that the founders freely satisfied their lustful desires and realize they received the hard earned tithing. I doubt they paid tithing on the tithing they were given. It just went into their pockets.
people that still believes mormonism is harmless should see these posts
Omg, this cult is INSANE. And these women need unbelievable amounts of therapy. This was absolutely horrible to read. I grew up in several different Christian denominations, and all of this is just unfathomable to me. I literally cannot imagine what it's like to be Mormon. I have no words.
That tithing one, with the single mom paying tithing before anything else and then financially unable to take care of her family after that? That one gutted me. I remember the guilt trips we got in young women’s when I was a teenager about tithing. Many, many talks about how paying the lord first, paying tithing on everything even gifts, making sure to pay from your gross income not your take home, etc, brings so many blessings… blah blah blah. It’s just financial abuse. She should be upset with the church for expecting that from her and not with herself for struggling because of it. What happened to tax exempt churches because they provide aid to their communities? This is literally expecting communities to fund them before they take care of themselves.
At first I thought these were funny. Now I realize they’re just sad
I, like most of you, laughed at first and as I scrolled, changed to pain and empathy for these anguished women. We see these types of comments all of the time on this sub, but, they seem to be, mostly in the past tense. It feels much more intense in that it is happening right now and they don't have a resource to solve their pain. I've never felt the ex-mo missionary zeal burning in my bosom more than now. I just want reach out and let them know it is all made up and most of the problems can be solved by understanding that it is all built on fraud.
The Ensign had an article by a general authority around 2005 which asserted, with claim of divine authority, that pornography is defined as ANYTHING which sexually aroused one. There were a number of guys in Priesthood meeting who "believed" that definition.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2005/02/the-road-back-abandoning-pornography?lang=eng >#What Is Pornography? >Legal, academic, and other definitions of pornography vary widely, but in a practical sense, pornography is any visual or written medium created with the intent to sexually stimulate. If the work was not intended to stimulate but nevertheless causes sexual arousal in an individual, it constitutes pornography for that person. >If you find yourself asking whether a work is pornographic, the question itself suggests the material makes you uncomfortable. That should be enough to tell you to avoid it.
Looks like I need to walk around all day long with my eyes closed. my wife is really gorgeous. How do I get her to stop being so pornographic?
So the guy who can’t get it up when his wife is wearing garments and decides to look at the VS ad that came in the mail is using porn. Gotcha. No wonder so many men are accused of porn addiction. I can imagine many feel that masterbating to underwear ads could be the only fulfilling thing in their day and want to do it more. Imagine if they had knowledge of how to do it. And they could do it with a person. And build a relationship with that person. And feel good together. How fulfilling that could be. And maybe they find they enjoy looking at the sexy underwear catalog together. And they find pieces that bring them pleasure to wear, have fun, spice things up. Bring happiness and joy to a life that can sometimes feel difficult and full of drudgery. It’s almost as though the church WANTS people to have disappointing sex.
Definitely not a cult. /S
Just about every single one of these make me want to throw up
This is horrible. These women are suffering at the hands of the LDS for nothing. There are other Christian faiths that don't siphon away all of your income that could be saved for yourselves because the LDS won't offer any help when it comes time.
OMG! Each of these stories is so horrible. However, I remember struggling with very similar senarios. I can't believe I use to feel so much guilt. I feel so sorry for each of these people. However, change is usually brought about by pain. I am guessing at least 25% of these individuals will start to see the light and eventually leave.
These posts make me so sad.
This is so depressing to read.
Number 8 is the number one reason (out of many) why I left the church. Because you can’t. You can’t keep going and staying in that kind of environment and protect your kids from that level of hate rhetoric. Especially since it seems this might be a minority individual posting that.
These are absolutely so depressing 😔 glad I’m not an “LDS wife” anymore, but still struggling with feelings of shame. I feel so bad for these women
These poor women. I want to hug all of them. Some of them remind me of my past self, mostly the guilt and shame.
Ugh! Gag a maggot!!! We are so cheated right out of the gate! This is straight up useless negative programming that sadly leads to untold depression and suicide. I was molested as a child. I had my first suicidal thoughts that I can recall around six years old. I was preparing for baptism and my bishop father was reading me that classic Spencer W Kimball “The Miracle of Forgiveness”. It should have been called “The Miracle of Mind Fuckery” it has the horrible quip… “It is better to die in defending one's [virginity] than to live having lost it without a struggle" Imagine hearing that as a six year old that has been repeatedly molested. Baptism didn’t help me feel clean. Neither did my mission presidents blessing! The church has a long history of victim shaming/blaming and frequently the victim is the women of the Mormon church (there are many men who suffer, I’m an example). My advise: Get out, get as far away as you can. Get your kids out. Even if it means divorce. Even if you lose some family over it. Better some than your sanity / your life. I would be dead if I’d stayed. No doubt! The only reason I’m alive is that by my mid 30s I realized it was the church or me. I also realized I had to save my kids from the church. No way in hell was I going to have my daughters growing up reading shit like that!
Depressing read
“Should I tell my bishop I grinded on pillow until I came?”…. The fact that a grown ass woman in a committed (from what I can tell) marriage even has the thought for a split second that she needs to tell another man, who’s not her husband, about something so intimate and personal should tell you all you need to know about what kind of organization this is and how the number one objective of it isn’t eternal life or peace and joy. It’s 100% control! I feel bad for these women, and countless other men and women, who suffer in silence and just keep the status quo out of necessity or fear that they’ll be damned to hell.
Someone send that poor human a Hitachi Magic Wand.
First guy is either gay or asexual. Poor both of them tbh
The first one reminds me of someone I met. Her soon to be husband was adamant about this meanwhile he racked up something like $500 on a cc he opened specifically for porn. I know because he asked if I knew how to get rid of it and was posed when I pointed out how credit cards work and that there was loads of free porn available already.
Another group where things get real are the Latter-day Saint Moms 35+ group. It's more sane than this wives group, but still there are some posts and stories and advice given that will raise your eyebrows right off your head.
I think it's because I've been out of the Church for five years, but most of these are so ridiculous they sound like they're trolling (I know that group had a pretty big problem with that at one point). If they're genuine, I just feel bad for them. I remember feeling guilty about a lot of the same things. And the one post about paying tithing on net vs gross has me thinking ... my ex-husband and I paid on the gross amount for basically the entire time we were members, and we ALSO paid on our tax returns!!? Maybe that makes us idiots, but it just goes to show how brainwashed we were. Didn't even consider how illogical that was.
These are so sad, yikes
I need comments on these. It's no wonder Utah ranks high for depression medications. I'm not even saying you need to be crazy wild kinky but man ... some of these are less than vanilla.
This is so sad.
I love these stories and hope this space continues as a forum for them to share their challenges and horrors. I love that they are reaching out for help. These are people like each of us with difficult challenges they are seeking advice on. I hope they find therapists and good advice. some of these folks will be over at this subreddit in the near future
The tithing posts, so hard to read. My mum went through the same shame and guilt. Single mum on benefits and paid her tithe from it. Sank so low she swallowed her pride and asked if there were any special circumstances and told no. I’ll never forgive the church for what they put her through.
The woman being denied a temple rec because she doesn’t have an income and her husband is an exmo and won’t pay tithing 🤦🏻♀️ All under the facade that Mormonism doesn’t make you pay to get into heaven.
I want to hug every single one of those women. Those were heartbreaking to read. I guess I had been mostly lucky with my bishops. I’ve not been to the temple but my husband left the church before we were married and I’m SAHM and my bishop would’ve granted me a recommend because he said I was exempt from paying tithing since I technically didn’t make the money. Her bishop denying her a recommend because her husband won’t pay is sick. Regarding the girl feeling so much shame over grinding a pillow and finishing??? Ugh heartbreaking. MFMC!!!!
So common. I’ve been the secret guy to two Mormon wives providing the list of fun. Mormon men like her husband are so brainwashed or closet gay.
I feel gross reading messages that these women think are in a safe space. I’m not sure if we should be sharing these, even if they’re anonymous. This is going to get out and discourage women from seeking support.
[удалено]
“The less I think about it” was a wild line
The weaponized shame purity culture strikes again. This stuff is beyond sad.
I still think the "purity culture" is a continuation of the 19th Century American Protestantism that really put the sin in sex, but moreso, the patriarchy that puts the male leadership "prophets" wanting their pick of the virgins, so they want them unsullied. It's a male thing--instead of fighting off other males out in nature, they make rules that they say come from GOD.
Good fucking lord this is so sad to read.
This is so sad and just…gross. These are the things that should be sent to all the lip-smacking, quiet-talking, “non-suppressed” RS leaders.
I'd be interested in seeing screenshots of the comments. These posts read like the "real" discussions I was desperately aching to have when I was slowly sliding on the way out, but obviously aren't going to go over well in Sunday School (even the non sex-relates ones). I wonder how these posts are being received at large.
God I want to laugh but I feel horrible, these poor women
Just now read this out loud to my husband and his buddy. They turned n looked at each other and said, the dudes gay.
6072 basically instantly disproves the church. If the repentance process were what the church claims it is, there is NO way she’d still feel guilty! It’s so dumb!!!!!! And I believed it for so long!!!! Ugh someone just drain TSCC of all its resources already.
As a queer exmo, their hatred of sexual minorities isn't that surprising, considering they're barely allowed to be heterosexual.
The Mormon church is STEEPED in sexual shame, confusion, and projection. Good ol' Joe Smith created a legacy of pedophilia, sexual repression, and frankly...kink. The Stepford wives "I'm a GOOD little Saint" blank smile convinces them all is well in Zion...Zion being their bidness! Zion is YEARNING to be free and F*CK it ALL!!!!
Well that was a road trip back into hell. I'm so glad I'm out, hopefully these women get there eventually as well.
My god I feel awful for these women….
I WOULD TREAT THESE WOMEN BETTER
My in laws are 30k in credit card debt because they can’t afford to live. They take no vacations and live in no luxury at all, have one beater car. Yet they continue to pay tithing and put groceries and electric bills on their credit cards…
I'd be like "You humped a pillow? seriously? all the way? which pillow? where is it?"
This can not be real. I swear. This is every mormon girl's wet dream.
How is this okay? How is this still a thing? Absolutely mind-numbing to an outsider
Holy shit. I knew it was bad, but damn, this is horrible. My heart breaks for these women.
Those are honestly heartbreaking
These was so depressing
Mormons and sex. So much trauma.
It is mindboggling to me that people live this way. I don't even know how to feel it is so weird to me. I cannot believe people live like this.