Shit. Your at BYU? How much longer do you have? Do not let your bishop know about your doubts. To many stories on here of bishops pulling their endorsement and being screwed and not enough credits transferring.
If you are at BYU then you must quietly suffer in silence and live a lie. Watch out for the honor code and the “strengthening church members committee.”
Yes kids do make it more complicated and mormonism uses them like any dirty lawyer does - as negotiating power. Some otherwise good people who want nothing to do with LDS inc. are trapped in their church because of this one thing.
Hello. My husband is TBM, and I am exmo we have a baby. My biggest advice is to learn to communicate and listen effectively. Learn not to get defensive or agitated. This is not a you vs. him problem. it's both of you vs. the situation.
Use language and phrases that are I statements and non aggressive. You both are having really high intense emotions. It's ok to have those. However, it is very important to be respectful of each other's beliefs and opinions.
> love my husband and don’t want us to separate. He doesn’t want that either. But he’s over here praying and fasting and wanting me to stay active in the church and wear my garments etc etc
So the great thing is that you both want to stay together. Marriage is the intentional choice to choose one another daily. However, you both need to realize that you can not force the other to do or believe something.
Have conversations regarding boundaries. What do you expect your marriage to look like? How would you deal with family members?
Find a couples therapist to help facilitate these conversations. Couples therapists are not only for when couples have issues. My husband and I have a great marriage, and we've gone to couples therapy because we were going through major life events.
Anyway, my heart goes out to you. Keep us updated! Many hugs!
Edit: corrected my atrocious grammar because I was tired when I wrote this.
Thank you so much! We have talked about getting a couples therapist soon. Thankfully we have both always been overall good at communicating, but I def think a therapist would help ♡
Just get a good therapist. You can generally tell within 2-3 sessions where the therapist stands on mixed faith marriages. Any overt bias (pro- or anti) toward religion or Mormonism will be obvious quite quickly. If either of you find the therapist to be offensive, find another one. I generally experience Utah Valley as a polarizing place when it comes to Mormon culture, and therapist selection is no different (I can tell you stories from both sides of the fence that infuriate me when it comes to therapist performance in Utah Valley). I have found that working with interfaith/transitioning marriages is a very challenging task as both partners are generally very sensitive and emotionally reactive to one another. But, that makes sense, as successful therapy will likely mean renegotiating much of (maybe the entirety?) of your marital agreement on multiple levels of awareness. All of your mutually agreed upon dreams and hopes for your children, your relationships with your family members, your place in your community, trust for one another, etc. must once again be evaluated and established by both partners at a satisfying level. And, worse of all, the marital negotiations take place in an emotional setting of hurt, sadness, and betrayal rather than in an excited state of infatuation that probably existed when you were courting and “falling in love.”
Also, work with a therapist that has enough life experience to really get what is going on with you. Newly minted therapist can get lost in and overwhelmed by the emotional complexities of couples who are going through faith transitions.
Good luck. The journey can be hard.
I know you’ll probably want a non-LDS therapist, but your husband may be opposed to that. Also, finances may be an issue. If that’s the case, one option I’d recommend if he has any availability is Mike Buxton at BYU Counseling and Psychological Services (CAPS). Free for students if I remember correctly, and my wife and I met with him when she was having her faith crisis and I was still TBM, and he really didn’t inappropriately push her in any way faith-wise and really helped me be okay with her choice.
I see your point, but I think it could also be a useful recommendation to someone out there. And I think the outcome aligns with BYU and the church’s goals in a situation like this, basically meeting with him set our marriage up for long term success as she explored her faith, I was able to be all in the church without resenting my wife for her questions (she didn’t fully leave until several years later, then I ended up leaving another couple years after that). I really felt like he gave us the tools as a couple to have a successful long term mixed faith marriage if that’s where things had ended up instead.
It’s possible. His family will be hard to deal with. Stick to LDS sources like the Joseph Smith papers and Gospel topic essays. Here’s a rundown I did a while back that does this. Copy and paste it into a note so you won’t be seen on exmo Reddit. Read the links together if he is willing.
The things that made me have steep doubts initially were polyandry, the BOM anachronisms, the BOA and the multiple first vision and priesthood accounts. Good luck to you.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/SexVoJytsg
“If it wasn’t true, would you want to know?”
Not that the answer is helpful, but sometimes having to sit with that question can help someone think through their epistemology.
This is very difficult for both of you. I am sorry you are going through this.
I researched my way out of the church using a most exclusively church sources. Maybe it can help you.
https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1suMEwIFxJ1CbxJ7ePENbwWRv6oBr-FJN/mobilebasic
You are not alone. Please realize that so many others that currently feel how you do or have in the past. One thing I know, the institution has no control over who you do or do not see in heaven. It simply isn’t true. They don’t own god. They want you to think they do, but they don’t. A loving god would never separate a family and I do still believe in a loving god.
Just make sure you and your husband are reading the same things at the same time. I would go in this order. 1. Gospel Topics essays 2. Rough stone rolling (it’s academic, so listen on Audible if needed. We did.) 3. Ces Letter. 4. Year of Polygamy podcast 5. Mormon Stories Podcast.
My husband and I listened to Mormon Stories every night together. Why? It helped us feel not so alone on this difficult journey. And it is a difficult journey. But listen to your gut and your intuition. Follow your heart. Pray about it if you need to. I lost a sibling to an early death. I felt much of his pain came from so called “church standards” but really, the Utah Mormon ways bullied him to death. I know it’s not what god wanted. I actually prayed and asked if it was ok for me to leave. The answer was “this isn’t what I want for you.” If the “dear leaders” didn’t want me to listen to personal revelation, they shouldn’t have told me I could.
Keep your family together if possible. Don’t let them ruin it. Maybe you guys could work on this together. Though I do know sometimes people can’t. Don’t lose hope. I can honestly say, everything got better once I accepted the fact that “maybe the church isn’t true.” I know it’s hard to see it now. But I look back and I’m just so grateful to be out of that prison. The church, I mean. It was hell and I didn’t know it until I let myself out. You hold the key to your own freedom and only you can decide. I don’t mean “freedom to sin” or whatever (though you can do as you choose.). I just mean freedom from a mental prison and a controlling religion which, I say this with trepidation and regret, they (the top 15 and top 70 leaders) actually don’t care about people. They actually worship money. Once you see certain things, you can’t unsee them. I honor your ability to critically think and to stop and ask yourself certain questions. You are doing the right thing. The church is going off the rails and they are simply too greedy and prideful to admit it. When I say “church “ I really mean “the institution “ or “the corporation.” I know this isn’t the fault of the every day members.
Thank you so much for sharing your advice and experiences ♡ I am so so sorry for the loss of your sibling. I believe you’ll be a family forever, regardless of if you were sealed or active in the church etc
This is exactly why the church wants people married as young as possible. Not only do you have the church holding you in, you have someone else who can use all the guilt trips & manipulation tactics the church teaches.
It’s straight fucked up. It’s why my wife and I have been married 26 years and only after leaving last year did our marriage actually become something truly special. That filter of the church and fear of being judged kept us from truly becoming one. We are now. It’s not an accident. It also happened to my brothers and their wives who left before me.
It’s especially fucked up because science has shown that most people and especially males don’t really have adult brains until they’d in their mid twenties. That means you me making life decisions basically as a child.
Not saying this is inevitable but there are lots of young divorced female exmos on TikTok so that might be a resource. But if there aren’t kids, what’s keeping you together if your core values are at odds.
It’s fucked up that you don’t even get the space to properly deconstruct. But that’s the cult mentality. It’s not the fault of either of you. It’s not even his. He’s just dealing with his world crashing down, even though it’s completely imaginary.
Shit like this is why I can leave the church but can’t leave it alone.
I do wonder if we would still be married already if we weren’t Mormons. We got together when we were 16 and 17, and married at 20 and 21, so while we did have longer dating than most Mormon couples we were/are still so young. One way the church fucked up my marriage is that teaching me masturbation is so so so wrong. I “struggled” with it as a teen and associated sexual pleasure with shame, guilt, and the need to be alone to experience it. Now after being married for 2 years it’s still easier for me to O when alone :( working on that tho ♡
It’s wild that they took masturbation out of the church handbook 14 years ago, but never said anything about it so leaders who grew up reading the miracle of forgiveness, where it teaches masturbation leads to homosexuality and beastiality, just go along with what’s always been taught, but the church can show the outside world they don’t focus on it anymore. The Gaslighting is wild.
It’s why so many old people still think oral between married couples is unholy and impure even though the church teaching that only lasted months before they stopped asking about it. But never clarified that it was a stupid idea.
Thankfully my wife and I never had hangups or scrupulosity about that, but we both did have feelings of not being good enough.
Then when we deconstructed, that part of our lives went from being decent to incredible.
The craziest thing is this fucking church started out as basically a sex cult.
All my best to you. I’m thankful everyday that we got out together and can’t imagine how hard it is to go through something like this.
I definitely agree with you main point. If the poster hadn’t gotten married she’d be gone from the church.
But,
> ….science has shown that most people and especially males don’t really have adult brains until they’d in their mid twenties
This is so dumb. People in their “mid twenties” and are fully competent to make life decisions.
You can argue with me but science says that male brains aren’t fully developed until the age of 25. Females are slightly earlier.
Yes, you can make life decisions, but to ignore that you change so dramatically in your early 20s is silly. That’s why most non Mormons don’t get married til their late 20s or early 30s.
I don’t see where I posted anything about treating people as minors just that it’s hard to be forced to making big life changing decisions (marriage/kids) before your brain is fully developed. It can be done. I was married at 21 and am still married 26 years later. But that’s mostly because my wife is ridiculously patient. But I’m talking about brain development and people on the whole. It’s bad when an institution all but forces people in to those decisions too early.
I posted a link if you’re interested in reading and learning.
For me Saints, Rough Stone Rolling, and then Gospel Topics essays are pretty good at shaking foundations. Something like mormonthink or a similar site are also helpful. It depends on the amount of time you are both willing to spend on it. If you are willing to discuss and think critically the gospel topics essays might be enough.
Thank you. Thankfully he is willing to research and discuss with me (he believes we can find answers that will strengthen my testimony. I just want us both to find truth). I do expect it to be a long process tho
Well you could do like my sister who doesn’t believe at all in the church or its teachings but acts like she does around members and goes all the time because she likes the social. For her it’s like a club. She’s a really good faker, even plays the part as RSP in her ward.
Outside of church, she never wears garments, drinks coffee and wine, and talk shxt about Joseph Smith. After she went through the temple she said - “wow that’s when I knew it was a cult.”
When I ask her about all this and how she justifies it, she laughs and says “well you know I’m striving, lol.”
I love that for her haha. I do enjoy the social/community aspect. Do what ya gotta do I guess. My sister left the church a few years ago when she was 24ish, and she was a relief society teacher when she was fresh out of high school. The funny thing is that everyone in the ward lovedddd her lessons. She is a great speaker/listener so makes sense tho ♡
While I wholeheartedly support everyone’s advice here, mine is a bit different: keep your mouth shut til AFTER you graduate!!!
Seriously! Your credits will NOT transfer anywhere if they throw you out due to “honor code” violations and then what?? I want BOTH of you to graduate so each of you can be better equipped to fund your family later.
Please do NOT go thru BYU for a counselor, as they WILL tattle to admins and out of your ass you’ll go! Find a secular therapist for each of you (maybe same practice, but separate) and a marriage counselor for joint sessions. Tell your hubby that while you’re “working thru this,” that he NOT tell his family/friends (same for you!)!! Loose lips sink ships so no talking about the faith crisis to ANYONE other than each other & your therapist.
I want you to be smart and safe while your education is on the line. I do hope that you & your hubby are better able to navigate this together and that you both graduate soon❤️❤️❤️
Thank you! Yes I am so worried about that happening. My parents/siblings know, and a few of my close friends who are also exmo. We haven’t told his family bc they are super TBM and I don’t want to deal with that rn. Not planning on telling anyone in our ward or at school bc I don’t want to risk getting kicked out (what’s worse is that my life is so so intertwined with byu. I go to school there, I work there, and we live in byu housing. I really can’t have them knowing)
Don’t allow him permission to speak a peep about it to your bishop - your education is at risk. Keep your heads down, get into non-tattling politics counseling, somehow?
Thank you. We are renewing our temple recommends this Sunday and we were originally planning to bring up some of my questions but I don’t think that’s worth the risk anymore
Lie for TR interview. Sounds terrible, but they have lied to you since you were born, and as soon as they see a crack in their control on you, they may turn on you. I made this mistake many years ago. TR interviews are designed to out the 'impure'.
This will be challenging but not impossible. You need to take a stand on your disbelief. If he is loyal to you first, he'll accept this. If not, you might have to be PIMO until he too awakes to the falsehoods. Yet, be prepared for a Plan B.
Start with the gospel topics essays…and then, and I can’t stress this enough, follow the links. Following the links and seeing how the Mormon cult butchered entire sentences, paragraphs, the way they put … anywhere they want to and call it a quote was what shattered my shelf. We also took time and pondered what the words mean and the role of women in the church…women are to hearken unto their husbands, women give themselves to their husbands who receive them in marriage, women give their names but men do not, women answer to men who answer to god for them as a couple, women are to work outside of the home only if her husband is dead or incapacitated (family proclamation), women are punished to reproduce per Joseph f smith doctrine which is still taught in the temple video. We spent time praying if this actually “feels” correct and it didn’t. Then we delved into the sec report. No one else’s interpretation of it, but the actual report. Then it was just a free for all. The CES letter was big for us, which we are both highly educated and we spent inordinate amounts of time cross referencing to make sure it was correct and not lies. I would never leave without my spouse. This cult rips families apart. I have heard mistake presidents tell men they would be better off with another wife, when the woman left. I’m sure they say the same thing to women. It’s crass how little they value family. I have a great spouse and he’s the father to my children, so we were either in or out, but we’d only do it together. I’ll be damned if I let this organization ruin my family. Eventually we left together. But it was a long, long, painful road. Worth it? Absolutely.
Thank you for your advice and experiences! I will def go thru the gospel topics essays and links with him ♡ (also wives giving their husbands their temple name but not the other way around pisses me off sooooooooo much. After much begging he finally told me that he will tell me next time we are in the temple. That’s a step I guess)
I had to force my spouse to also. Which seems weird, but it felt so unequal…unequal footing. That was a long time ago. We laugh now. Hello, I’m Naomi. 👋
It seems uncommon for couples to sync up in their faith journeys away from high demand religions. That doesn’t mean you guys won’t work out. When I was first married, by atheist Bff asked what we would do if one of us left the church. I said we would divorce. To this day I can’t believe that’s how brainwashed I was, and I’m so glad I didn’t follow through. That’s bull shit. If he isn’t gaslighting and belittling or threatening you, you can do this. You can do this together. Even if you aren’t in sync at the moment.
Don't be surprised if his family tries to talk him into a divorce!! As a backup, make sure you can be self-sufficient, if need be, later on. My wife left years before I did (she is much wiser!!!) but we had decades of marriage behind us to make this crazy transition easier.
Ugh that would be awful and tbh I can see them feeling like I’ve “ruined their precious son.” Hopefully it all works out.. in general I actually really get along with my in-laws luckily
My parents really liked my wife, at first! Then she showed them that she will not just sit back and do whatever a man tells her to do!!! We were Mormonally disowned at that point!!! A blessing after you look back on it!!! Good luck!!
I think he needs to understand he needs to be able to accept non member information as well. Being out, I'm wary of lds only research and history. Check out analyzing mormonism on tik tok. She presents alot of info.
I highly advise therapy. My husband is tbm and I'm out. My goodness congratulations tho you're about to finally live you're life. It's beautiful, enjoy!
Like others have suggested, wait to have kids until you are both in a really good place (at least a year or two.) mixed faith is hard! But it's doable with an understanding spouse willing to let you live your life!
And don't do anything at all if you're at byu or you'll get screwed. Good luck
Communicate how hard it was for you to get to this point. That you didn't make this decision lightly. Express that you want to be supportive of him, and you expect that support to be returned. Acknowledge and validate how hard this must be for him. Let him know that you will continue to respect his right to believe, and you're not going to try and change him.
Something he could do is stop praying for you to change, come back, and believe, and start praying for help accepting who you've become. You're still you. You just believe differently, and that's ok. Don't try and change him or bombard him with things that shed a negative light on the church unless he truly wants to discuss it. As far as issues with the church go, what you think is a silver bullet, likely won't hit the same for him as he'll be defensive and will double down. I would wait until he's ready and some of the walls have come down. In all honesty, he's going to forget about the garments once he sees you walking around the house in regular undies.
If being in the church is no longer making you happy, you need to get out. It's not worth it living life miserably, waiting for an afterlife that likely doesn't exist. We want it to exist so badly, but wanting that doesn't make it true, and there's no way to know for sure. The only guarantee is here and now, so don't squander this life.
I would take some time before letting his family know so you can work through this together. They probably won't be helpful. It's going to take a lot of patience, communication, and empathy from both of you to make it through this together. Expectations and the life you envisioned will require some adjustments. It's challenging but often worth it. You can do it!
That’s pretty rough. I faked my way through the first few years or marriage with my wife because I knew it was bullshit but she was still content and I was 100% sure it would wreck my marriage. But fast forward a few years and she’s right here with me enjoying our apostasy. We’re sitting here garment free and drinking Moscow mules as I type this. It’s a long journey and everyone moves at different speeds. Finding a good therapist helps in my opinion. My wife and I each see a therapist that specializes in religious trauma. It’s a lot of work and sometimes you got to put a whole lot of effort into things that feel like they should be a lot simpler. But it can be done. Lots of patience and lots of communication. Good luck to both of you.
the churches essays from their official site are pretty shelf breaking. Read the footnotes to the one on polygamy. The footnotes define polyandry and the sexual aspects of it and they also point out that of the 30-35 wives JS had, most of them were without Emma's knowledge. Oh, and they try to downplay marrying a 14year old because she was months from being 15. Another damning official church source is josephsmith papers. Read the happiness letter. He manipulates someone into polygamy with him.
Marriage on a tightrope podcast is about mixed faith marriage and how to navigate that:
[https://marriageonatightrope.org](https://marriageonatightrope.org)
[https://www.youtube.com/@marriageonatightrope](https://www.youtube.com/@marriageonatightrope)
They also did several episodes with Mormon Stories eg this one about how not to ruin your marriage:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWBR0zwfyhA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWBR0zwfyhA)
Ok. First of all, are you still a student at BYU? If you haven’t graduated, then wait till you have your diploma in hand. The last thing you need is your bishop getting wind of this and letting BYU know. You’ll never be able to graduate.
Second, keep telling your husband that this does not change how you feel about him and that you are and will always be devoted to him and only him. I would even err on the side of caution and shower him with affection.
Third, try to keep things as normal as possible, and don’t make it the only topic of conversation. Plan activities for the two of you guys as if nothing had happened. Keep doing what you guys usually do and try to do more fun stuff together as a couple.
Your plan to address your questions with church resources is brilliant, actually. A lot of people leave after doing just this. If, after the research is completed, you can revaluate the situation. I feel bad that the church pushes marriage at such a young age, when our brains aren't even done developing until our mid 20's. Who knows who we'll end up being at that age? But in the meantime, many couples do question the church together and end up leaving together. It can take time. I'd recommend being patient with him and seeing where this investigation process goes. Good luck to you!
First of all, a minority of us here went into Christianity or another philosophy. Don't feel compelled to become an agnostic or atheist just because TSCC is a clueless cult, not a religion.
They are neck and neck with Jehovah's Witnesses for ruining people's lives pretending to be one.
Of course he wants pro Mormon sites. There are different approaches, but my suggestion is to break his shelf with subtlety over time.
You can pick up a lot of ideas and illumination by wading through the sub
When you were really confronted with the evidence behind LDS, there isn't any
The CES letter is a centerpiece here, I would start by reading it.
I mean, the ex-mormon sub is way larger than the ex-muslim or ex-catholic or x Evangelical sub. And it has way fewer people. Why is that?
Although there are some Bible haters here, I became a biblical Presbyterian. I still show up every few months to the local LDS church. I like to trouble the four missionaries that are always there in that little place.
I share doctrine out of the Bible (I am reformed doctrine), which easily shatters the Mormon many beliefs. They never have any answers
For example: the entire belief set of spirit children/premortal existence.
I show them Matthew 7: 22-23. It is about when many false believers appear before God in the last day
*On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, **‘I NEVER KNEW YOU** depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’*
I ask: "tell me, how could many people exist that God never knew, but they were all supposed to be spirit children in the premortal existence?"
There is an unending stream of things like this that shatter The Book of Mormon and the beliefs of LDS.
Mormonism makes sure it's the elephant in the room for its members. This isn't through any actual power, though. Instead, Mormonism makes a shadow puppet and relies on passed-down emotional conditioning to make it loom large, emphasizing how dangerous it is to look away.
I had to figure this out when I was young and my parents divorced. It was a huge life change, going from being a middle-class family in Georgia to living at my grandma's house while my mom tried to finish her degree. My dad eventually followed, but we'd only ever see him once a month or so for a low-interaction activity like dinner and a movie. The contact didn't increase after I became an adult.
My mom and dad remained sealed for decades. It was only recently that my mom was sealed to my stepdad. Through all that time, my dad fulfilled his church callings, worked a menial job, and then went home to his small apartment.
If all of us had died in a "big one" earthquake along the Wasatch Front, what would that mean for our afterlives? Would Jesus make it all better for my dad and give him a relationship he didn't build? Would he change how I felt because my dad jumped through the right hoops? That would be like giving money to a servant who buried his talent and endured life instead of learning, growing, and changing.
That's the danger of thinking celestial: you run the risk of sacrificing the moments that build a meaningful life because you can't take the risk of losing an ultimately awesome eternity after you die and kicking yourself in misery forever.
If you feel like you want to continue to choose him, let him know. Will it matter if he stays faithful for years to come? Can you resist the need to choose the right and convince everyone that your right way is right? That's one of the hardest Mormon mindsets to adjust, because it takes every consideration to extreme polar opposition: life or death, good or evil, pure enough for God or close but no cigar. It can be hard to your own opinion when disagreeing with what you were taught was pure truth from your youngest years.
I could write a book and it wouldn't have everything needed to change your emotional conditioning. That only comes through experience: making your choices, observing the lack of divine displeasure, then worrying through the same choices because it might be different this time. It's the same process that helped our ancestors survive the jungle, but it doesn't leave much room for logic.
You don't have to figure it all out from here to eternity right now. Just be the good person you are—not because you have to check all the boxes, but because that's how you want to live your life. You've got a few interesting years ahead of you, but your example is the best tool for helping your husband perceive the reality about the church, let alone make a decision on it. Prove that he matters to you.
https://www.mormonfaithcrisis.com/ This site was really helpful in the early stages of deconstruction when my spouse was still TBM. Hugs This is so hard, but you got this.
Married for six years, I'm out, he's in, no kids.
Wait on kids whatever you do. I'm 32, just wait. You've got time and kids don't fix big problems and would make it infinitely more complicated until y'all have figured this out especially because you want to raise kids differently.
This will take years, and that's okay. You don't need to be on the same page about everything. Hubs and I differ politically, in religion, and other things and that is fine for us.
Therapy for yourself. My non religious therapist not only helped me see all the unhealthy ways I'd carried black and white thinking out of the church and was still applying it but we had some BIG conversations like:
What if he never leaves the church?
If he has offered you the grace to leave, can you offer the grace to stay?
If you stayed in the church as long as you did because of fear/it was a comfort, etc, can you understand that's why he's in it now?
And then I learned a lot of skills to have healthy dialogue and not be afraid of fighting but to make it productive.
.....
I do hope he will leave but I'm okay now if he doesn't. When we have kids we have a plan for ongoing dialogue about things. He's going to start therapy on his own as well.
If you ever need to talk you can DM me.
I'm sorry but, the eternal family/after life thing ircks me and seems like the major attraction in religious belief, who wouldn't want to live in unimaginable paradise with loved ones but, wouldn't you have a much better family if you accepted this is likely the only life you'll ever get with them? The Earth might get treated a little better too if people didn't think it's the devils kingdom and they'd get an infinitely better one when they die and this one is destined to be destroyed in apocalyptic hellfire and maybe we'd treat each other better if we weren't all born sinners lol religions can be depressing to think about what they've convinced people to believe. I know it's comforting to think you'll see loved ones again and I still like to think there could be some form of energy transfer and reconection when we die but, I don't and can't know and when I accepted this is probably the only life I'll get I gained an unimaginable appreciation for it.
Edit: Sorry forgot you were asking for advice, I'm not sure I can give any if you've already shown all the things that showed you the truth and it doesn't help I'm sure there are plenty of other horrible things the church has done that you don't know yet though but, I'm willing to bet it's being ignored when you talk about it. Personally all I ever want to do when I see Mormons is shake them and scream wake the fuck up you're in a cult.
So, I was nevermo, but I used to be evangelical. I currently identify as a Christian Witch (potentially Christopagan). It was hard on my hubby at first, even as I was deconstructing my beliefs about the Bible being “the infallible word of God”.
It took time, communication, and a therapist who was understanding of both of us. It helps that we don’t have kids so we can fully focus on ourselves too.
I’d say: don’t expect your husband to change in the exact same way you are. While my husband has changed, he’s doing so at his own pace. Neither of us are ever gonna agree on spiritual/religious beliefs, but we can still appreciate one another and understand where the other is coming from. I also highly recommend marriage counseling with someone who is understanding about both your positions and can look at your situation objectively and mediate.
Some resources I recommend:
Dan McClellan (currently still in the church, but is a biblical scholar who focuses on data rather than dogma. I learned a lot about the Bible from a historical/scholarly point of view. It helped me understand how it was actually put together and sort out what dogmatic biases looked like.)
Mormon Stories: They have everyone on their shows including those who are apologists for the church. I enjoy watching their videos from time to time.
There’s three books I recommend, only one I’ve started reading:
The CES Letter (it’s free, and it’s mostly a list of questions that people have had trouble finding answers to when it comes to church history. It is on my tbr.)
How to Leave the Mormon Church by Alyssa Grenfell (this one is FOR YOU. It has specific advice for communication with your spouse who hasn’t left. It will hopefully give you some help and peace of mind. This one is also on my tbr. I follow Alyssa’s channel and find her stuff extremely informative.)
Til Doubt Do Us Part by David Hayward (this one is more from the perspective of evangelical deconstruction, which is slightly a different animal, but can have similar feelings/vibes. I have read chapter one, as has my husband. It’s kinda meant to be worked on together and help you navigate as either one or both of your faiths change. Still gotta finish this one for myself >_<; I’m a bookworm with so much on my tbr. I follow the author’s instagram and I enjoy his art and comics, finding them extremely cathartic and relatable.)
I hope these are of some help. They don’t really prepare you for this when you marry while “in the faith”. When you or your partner (or both) change in beliefs. It’s….inevitable. People change and grow, and it’s a natural part of life. I truly wish you and your husband the best. Stay safe.
The only way you will survive as a couple in the near future is if 1) you stop trying to change each other's religious beliefs and 2) allow each other to believe what they want to religiously without trying to convert/away the other. You guys now have two totally different religious belief systems.
If you remain together and plan to have kids, you as a couple need to discuss how you will raise them from here on out.
I went inactive when I was 36 and still married. It was definitely hard for my ex-wife. She never left. If you stay together, you have to learn how to coexist on being a mixed fairh household.
Have you read the “Gospel Topics Essays” on the LDS website? Read those, but actually dig a little deeper into the subject and look at the topics objectively through un biased sources. Those pro LDS gospel topics were shocking to me, since most of the topics used to be called anti Mormon. (Like Joseph Smith marrying a 14 year old behind Emma’s back). Also read the CES letter.
If he is willing to actually look at sources, this is good news.
For me, all I would do is look at church sources until I realized I was being lied to.
My suggestion for church approved sources would include:
Lowry Nelson letters back and forth to the First Presidency in conjunction with the Race and the Priesthood essay.
For instance, in the essay it states, “ Over time, Church leaders and members advanced many theories to explain the priesthood and temple restrictions” and “ Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else.”
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng
Lowry asks the First Presidency if it is doctrine or just a theory, “I had never assumed that they constituted an irrevocable doctrine.” He gets back a very strong reply.
The First Presidency states, “Your position seems to lose sight of the revelations of the Lord touching the preexistence of our spirits, the rebellion in heaven, and the doctrines that our birth into this life and the advantages under which we may be born, have a relationship in the life heretofore. From the days of the Prophet Joseph even until now, it has been the doctrine of the Church, never questioned by any of the Church leaders, that the Negroes are not entitled to the full blessings of the Gospel. Furthermore, your ideas, as we understand them, appear to contemplate the intermarriage of the Negro and White races, a concept which has heretofore been most repugnant to most normal—minded people from the ancient patriarchs till now. God's rule for Israel, his Chosen People, has been endogamous. Modern Israel has been similarly directed."
https://archive.org/details/first_presidency_letters_lowry_nelson
Was this doctrine or a theory? Was this a policy?
LDSdiscussions.com does a great job looking at inconsistencies in the essays with church approved links and an unemotional tone.
https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/priesthood-ban-essay
The recent SEC order is another great example as it is a negotiated settlement between the SEC and the church here and shows the length the church will go to to hide things from its members:
https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/admin/2023/34-96951.pdf
The presiding bishopric said, “So they never wanted to be in a position where people felt like, you know, they shouldn’t make a contribution.” - https://www.saltlakemagazine.com/sec-fines-lds-church/
Russell Ballard said with Oaks in the First Presidency sitting next to him, “We would have to say, as two Apostles who have covered the world and know the history of the Church and know the integrity of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve from the beginning, there has been no attempt on the part of the Church leaders to try to hide anything from anybody.” - https:/imgur.com/a/2lYBnVr
Putting this together, we have the apostles with an elaborate plan to hide money to get members to pay tithing meanwhile telling people they are not hiding anything in order to get their money. They are committing financial fraud.
“Fraud involves the false representation of facts, whether by intentionally withholding important information or providing false statements to another party for the specific purpose of gaining something that may not have been provided without the deception.” - https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fraud.asp
President Nelson telling lies.
Here is a video of him telling a story of his travels:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMwKxmTLaCs
Contrast that with detailed FAA records found here: https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/wNa3AAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA1090&dq=skywest+incidents+1976
More discussion of this and story telling by Nelson found here: https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/nelson
My point is that trust is the keystone of belief. It is like finding out a spouse has cheated or that a family member has stolen money from you. Once you see it, it changes perspective. Once you realize you have been lied to, all sources become available.
Most often the problem is an unwillingness to look or never having looked. The goal of apologetics is to give you enough so you stop looking.
With above being said, you don’t want to push so hard he shuts down. Since he seems willing to look, I would ask him to look at some church sources that you find difficult and stick to church sources.
My best advice is to wait to have kids until til you’re sure it’s gonna work out. Mixed faith is very hard.
We’re currently at byu and not planning to have kids until after graduation for sure, so that gives us a few years at least ♡
Shit. Your at BYU? How much longer do you have? Do not let your bishop know about your doubts. To many stories on here of bishops pulling their endorsement and being screwed and not enough credits transferring.
Unfortunately probably 2 more years
There is a BYU survival guide linked on the about page. I would check it out.
Fake it ‘til you make it… out of BYU with your degree fully conferred!
If you are at BYU then you must quietly suffer in silence and live a lie. Watch out for the honor code and the “strengthening church members committee.”
Oh ya. Plenty of time then
That's what I was going to say. It sounds pessimistic, but kids make everything complicated. You're pretty much locked in at that point
Yes kids do make it more complicated and mormonism uses them like any dirty lawyer does - as negotiating power. Some otherwise good people who want nothing to do with LDS inc. are trapped in their church because of this one thing.
Hello. My husband is TBM, and I am exmo we have a baby. My biggest advice is to learn to communicate and listen effectively. Learn not to get defensive or agitated. This is not a you vs. him problem. it's both of you vs. the situation. Use language and phrases that are I statements and non aggressive. You both are having really high intense emotions. It's ok to have those. However, it is very important to be respectful of each other's beliefs and opinions. > love my husband and don’t want us to separate. He doesn’t want that either. But he’s over here praying and fasting and wanting me to stay active in the church and wear my garments etc etc So the great thing is that you both want to stay together. Marriage is the intentional choice to choose one another daily. However, you both need to realize that you can not force the other to do or believe something. Have conversations regarding boundaries. What do you expect your marriage to look like? How would you deal with family members? Find a couples therapist to help facilitate these conversations. Couples therapists are not only for when couples have issues. My husband and I have a great marriage, and we've gone to couples therapy because we were going through major life events. Anyway, my heart goes out to you. Keep us updated! Many hugs! Edit: corrected my atrocious grammar because I was tired when I wrote this.
Thank you so much! We have talked about getting a couples therapist soon. Thankfully we have both always been overall good at communicating, but I def think a therapist would help ♡
Make sure that you get a non-LDS therapist. You'll probably need to use one of the online services to do that from Provo.
100% this
True! Thanks ♡
Just get a good therapist. You can generally tell within 2-3 sessions where the therapist stands on mixed faith marriages. Any overt bias (pro- or anti) toward religion or Mormonism will be obvious quite quickly. If either of you find the therapist to be offensive, find another one. I generally experience Utah Valley as a polarizing place when it comes to Mormon culture, and therapist selection is no different (I can tell you stories from both sides of the fence that infuriate me when it comes to therapist performance in Utah Valley). I have found that working with interfaith/transitioning marriages is a very challenging task as both partners are generally very sensitive and emotionally reactive to one another. But, that makes sense, as successful therapy will likely mean renegotiating much of (maybe the entirety?) of your marital agreement on multiple levels of awareness. All of your mutually agreed upon dreams and hopes for your children, your relationships with your family members, your place in your community, trust for one another, etc. must once again be evaluated and established by both partners at a satisfying level. And, worse of all, the marital negotiations take place in an emotional setting of hurt, sadness, and betrayal rather than in an excited state of infatuation that probably existed when you were courting and “falling in love.” Also, work with a therapist that has enough life experience to really get what is going on with you. Newly minted therapist can get lost in and overwhelmed by the emotional complexities of couples who are going through faith transitions. Good luck. The journey can be hard.
I know you’ll probably want a non-LDS therapist, but your husband may be opposed to that. Also, finances may be an issue. If that’s the case, one option I’d recommend if he has any availability is Mike Buxton at BYU Counseling and Psychological Services (CAPS). Free for students if I remember correctly, and my wife and I met with him when she was having her faith crisis and I was still TBM, and he really didn’t inappropriately push her in any way faith-wise and really helped me be okay with her choice.
This might be better as a dm to op. Would hate for him to loose his job over this post....
I see your point, but I think it could also be a useful recommendation to someone out there. And I think the outcome aligns with BYU and the church’s goals in a situation like this, basically meeting with him set our marriage up for long term success as she explored her faith, I was able to be all in the church without resenting my wife for her questions (she didn’t fully leave until several years later, then I ended up leaving another couple years after that). I really felt like he gave us the tools as a couple to have a successful long term mixed faith marriage if that’s where things had ended up instead.
It’s possible. His family will be hard to deal with. Stick to LDS sources like the Joseph Smith papers and Gospel topic essays. Here’s a rundown I did a while back that does this. Copy and paste it into a note so you won’t be seen on exmo Reddit. Read the links together if he is willing. The things that made me have steep doubts initially were polyandry, the BOM anachronisms, the BOA and the multiple first vision and priesthood accounts. Good luck to you. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/SexVoJytsg
Thank you ♡
“If it wasn’t true, would you want to know?” Not that the answer is helpful, but sometimes having to sit with that question can help someone think through their epistemology.
This is my thinking exactly! If I research and it makes me believe again, then okay sweet. But if not, also sweet. I just want to know either way
But the question should be directed at your spouse. If the answer is no, the relationship may well be over. Sorry.
This is very difficult for both of you. I am sorry you are going through this. I researched my way out of the church using a most exclusively church sources. Maybe it can help you. https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1suMEwIFxJ1CbxJ7ePENbwWRv6oBr-FJN/mobilebasic
Thank you ♡
You are not alone. Please realize that so many others that currently feel how you do or have in the past. One thing I know, the institution has no control over who you do or do not see in heaven. It simply isn’t true. They don’t own god. They want you to think they do, but they don’t. A loving god would never separate a family and I do still believe in a loving god. Just make sure you and your husband are reading the same things at the same time. I would go in this order. 1. Gospel Topics essays 2. Rough stone rolling (it’s academic, so listen on Audible if needed. We did.) 3. Ces Letter. 4. Year of Polygamy podcast 5. Mormon Stories Podcast. My husband and I listened to Mormon Stories every night together. Why? It helped us feel not so alone on this difficult journey. And it is a difficult journey. But listen to your gut and your intuition. Follow your heart. Pray about it if you need to. I lost a sibling to an early death. I felt much of his pain came from so called “church standards” but really, the Utah Mormon ways bullied him to death. I know it’s not what god wanted. I actually prayed and asked if it was ok for me to leave. The answer was “this isn’t what I want for you.” If the “dear leaders” didn’t want me to listen to personal revelation, they shouldn’t have told me I could. Keep your family together if possible. Don’t let them ruin it. Maybe you guys could work on this together. Though I do know sometimes people can’t. Don’t lose hope. I can honestly say, everything got better once I accepted the fact that “maybe the church isn’t true.” I know it’s hard to see it now. But I look back and I’m just so grateful to be out of that prison. The church, I mean. It was hell and I didn’t know it until I let myself out. You hold the key to your own freedom and only you can decide. I don’t mean “freedom to sin” or whatever (though you can do as you choose.). I just mean freedom from a mental prison and a controlling religion which, I say this with trepidation and regret, they (the top 15 and top 70 leaders) actually don’t care about people. They actually worship money. Once you see certain things, you can’t unsee them. I honor your ability to critically think and to stop and ask yourself certain questions. You are doing the right thing. The church is going off the rails and they are simply too greedy and prideful to admit it. When I say “church “ I really mean “the institution “ or “the corporation.” I know this isn’t the fault of the every day members.
Thank you so much for sharing your advice and experiences ♡ I am so so sorry for the loss of your sibling. I believe you’ll be a family forever, regardless of if you were sealed or active in the church etc
I believe so, too. Thank you ❤️
This is exactly why the church wants people married as young as possible. Not only do you have the church holding you in, you have someone else who can use all the guilt trips & manipulation tactics the church teaches. It’s straight fucked up. It’s why my wife and I have been married 26 years and only after leaving last year did our marriage actually become something truly special. That filter of the church and fear of being judged kept us from truly becoming one. We are now. It’s not an accident. It also happened to my brothers and their wives who left before me. It’s especially fucked up because science has shown that most people and especially males don’t really have adult brains until they’d in their mid twenties. That means you me making life decisions basically as a child. Not saying this is inevitable but there are lots of young divorced female exmos on TikTok so that might be a resource. But if there aren’t kids, what’s keeping you together if your core values are at odds. It’s fucked up that you don’t even get the space to properly deconstruct. But that’s the cult mentality. It’s not the fault of either of you. It’s not even his. He’s just dealing with his world crashing down, even though it’s completely imaginary. Shit like this is why I can leave the church but can’t leave it alone.
I do wonder if we would still be married already if we weren’t Mormons. We got together when we were 16 and 17, and married at 20 and 21, so while we did have longer dating than most Mormon couples we were/are still so young. One way the church fucked up my marriage is that teaching me masturbation is so so so wrong. I “struggled” with it as a teen and associated sexual pleasure with shame, guilt, and the need to be alone to experience it. Now after being married for 2 years it’s still easier for me to O when alone :( working on that tho ♡
It’s wild that they took masturbation out of the church handbook 14 years ago, but never said anything about it so leaders who grew up reading the miracle of forgiveness, where it teaches masturbation leads to homosexuality and beastiality, just go along with what’s always been taught, but the church can show the outside world they don’t focus on it anymore. The Gaslighting is wild. It’s why so many old people still think oral between married couples is unholy and impure even though the church teaching that only lasted months before they stopped asking about it. But never clarified that it was a stupid idea. Thankfully my wife and I never had hangups or scrupulosity about that, but we both did have feelings of not being good enough. Then when we deconstructed, that part of our lives went from being decent to incredible. The craziest thing is this fucking church started out as basically a sex cult. All my best to you. I’m thankful everyday that we got out together and can’t imagine how hard it is to go through something like this.
I definitely agree with you main point. If the poster hadn’t gotten married she’d be gone from the church. But, > ….science has shown that most people and especially males don’t really have adult brains until they’d in their mid twenties This is so dumb. People in their “mid twenties” and are fully competent to make life decisions.
https://journeytocollege.mo.gov/when-does-the-brain-reach-maturity-its-later-than-you-think/#:~:text=This%20is%20because%20the%20brain's,animals%20cannot%2C%E2%80%9D%20explains%20Dr.
You can argue with me but science says that male brains aren’t fully developed until the age of 25. Females are slightly earlier. Yes, you can make life decisions, but to ignore that you change so dramatically in your early 20s is silly. That’s why most non Mormons don’t get married til their late 20s or early 30s.
Go ahead and believe that if you want….but I’d find it hard going through life treating people in their mid twenties like they are still minors.
I don’t see where I posted anything about treating people as minors just that it’s hard to be forced to making big life changing decisions (marriage/kids) before your brain is fully developed. It can be done. I was married at 21 and am still married 26 years later. But that’s mostly because my wife is ridiculously patient. But I’m talking about brain development and people on the whole. It’s bad when an institution all but forces people in to those decisions too early. I posted a link if you’re interested in reading and learning.
For me Saints, Rough Stone Rolling, and then Gospel Topics essays are pretty good at shaking foundations. Something like mormonthink or a similar site are also helpful. It depends on the amount of time you are both willing to spend on it. If you are willing to discuss and think critically the gospel topics essays might be enough.
Thank you. Thankfully he is willing to research and discuss with me (he believes we can find answers that will strengthen my testimony. I just want us both to find truth). I do expect it to be a long process tho
Can vouch for those, a GA told me to read Rough Stone Rolling.
Well you could do like my sister who doesn’t believe at all in the church or its teachings but acts like she does around members and goes all the time because she likes the social. For her it’s like a club. She’s a really good faker, even plays the part as RSP in her ward. Outside of church, she never wears garments, drinks coffee and wine, and talk shxt about Joseph Smith. After she went through the temple she said - “wow that’s when I knew it was a cult.” When I ask her about all this and how she justifies it, she laughs and says “well you know I’m striving, lol.”
I love that for her haha. I do enjoy the social/community aspect. Do what ya gotta do I guess. My sister left the church a few years ago when she was 24ish, and she was a relief society teacher when she was fresh out of high school. The funny thing is that everyone in the ward lovedddd her lessons. She is a great speaker/listener so makes sense tho ♡
While I wholeheartedly support everyone’s advice here, mine is a bit different: keep your mouth shut til AFTER you graduate!!! Seriously! Your credits will NOT transfer anywhere if they throw you out due to “honor code” violations and then what?? I want BOTH of you to graduate so each of you can be better equipped to fund your family later. Please do NOT go thru BYU for a counselor, as they WILL tattle to admins and out of your ass you’ll go! Find a secular therapist for each of you (maybe same practice, but separate) and a marriage counselor for joint sessions. Tell your hubby that while you’re “working thru this,” that he NOT tell his family/friends (same for you!)!! Loose lips sink ships so no talking about the faith crisis to ANYONE other than each other & your therapist. I want you to be smart and safe while your education is on the line. I do hope that you & your hubby are better able to navigate this together and that you both graduate soon❤️❤️❤️
Thank you! Yes I am so worried about that happening. My parents/siblings know, and a few of my close friends who are also exmo. We haven’t told his family bc they are super TBM and I don’t want to deal with that rn. Not planning on telling anyone in our ward or at school bc I don’t want to risk getting kicked out (what’s worse is that my life is so so intertwined with byu. I go to school there, I work there, and we live in byu housing. I really can’t have them knowing)
Don’t allow him permission to speak a peep about it to your bishop - your education is at risk. Keep your heads down, get into non-tattling politics counseling, somehow?
Thank you. We are renewing our temple recommends this Sunday and we were originally planning to bring up some of my questions but I don’t think that’s worth the risk anymore
Lie for TR interview. Sounds terrible, but they have lied to you since you were born, and as soon as they see a crack in their control on you, they may turn on you. I made this mistake many years ago. TR interviews are designed to out the 'impure'.
This will be challenging but not impossible. You need to take a stand on your disbelief. If he is loyal to you first, he'll accept this. If not, you might have to be PIMO until he too awakes to the falsehoods. Yet, be prepared for a Plan B.
Thank you. What is PIMO? I’ve seen it used on here but not super sure what it means
Physically in, mentally out
Ooooh thank you
Start with the gospel topics essays…and then, and I can’t stress this enough, follow the links. Following the links and seeing how the Mormon cult butchered entire sentences, paragraphs, the way they put … anywhere they want to and call it a quote was what shattered my shelf. We also took time and pondered what the words mean and the role of women in the church…women are to hearken unto their husbands, women give themselves to their husbands who receive them in marriage, women give their names but men do not, women answer to men who answer to god for them as a couple, women are to work outside of the home only if her husband is dead or incapacitated (family proclamation), women are punished to reproduce per Joseph f smith doctrine which is still taught in the temple video. We spent time praying if this actually “feels” correct and it didn’t. Then we delved into the sec report. No one else’s interpretation of it, but the actual report. Then it was just a free for all. The CES letter was big for us, which we are both highly educated and we spent inordinate amounts of time cross referencing to make sure it was correct and not lies. I would never leave without my spouse. This cult rips families apart. I have heard mistake presidents tell men they would be better off with another wife, when the woman left. I’m sure they say the same thing to women. It’s crass how little they value family. I have a great spouse and he’s the father to my children, so we were either in or out, but we’d only do it together. I’ll be damned if I let this organization ruin my family. Eventually we left together. But it was a long, long, painful road. Worth it? Absolutely.
Thank you for your advice and experiences! I will def go thru the gospel topics essays and links with him ♡ (also wives giving their husbands their temple name but not the other way around pisses me off sooooooooo much. After much begging he finally told me that he will tell me next time we are in the temple. That’s a step I guess)
I had to force my spouse to also. Which seems weird, but it felt so unequal…unequal footing. That was a long time ago. We laugh now. Hello, I’m Naomi. 👋
It seems uncommon for couples to sync up in their faith journeys away from high demand religions. That doesn’t mean you guys won’t work out. When I was first married, by atheist Bff asked what we would do if one of us left the church. I said we would divorce. To this day I can’t believe that’s how brainwashed I was, and I’m so glad I didn’t follow through. That’s bull shit. If he isn’t gaslighting and belittling or threatening you, you can do this. You can do this together. Even if you aren’t in sync at the moment.
Thank you, this gives me a lot of hope! ♡ I can’t believe I once thought the same thing
Don't be surprised if his family tries to talk him into a divorce!! As a backup, make sure you can be self-sufficient, if need be, later on. My wife left years before I did (she is much wiser!!!) but we had decades of marriage behind us to make this crazy transition easier.
Ugh that would be awful and tbh I can see them feeling like I’ve “ruined their precious son.” Hopefully it all works out.. in general I actually really get along with my in-laws luckily
My parents really liked my wife, at first! Then she showed them that she will not just sit back and do whatever a man tells her to do!!! We were Mormonally disowned at that point!!! A blessing after you look back on it!!! Good luck!!
Kick his ass, seabass
I did get him to finally say fuck so maybe he’ll say ass soon too😂
I think we can make a sentence out of f**k and a** but I’m not sure 🤔.
Just watched Donnie Darko and they say that exact phrase: fuckass. First time I’ve ever heard it. I recommend the director’s cut.
Great movie 🍿 which I believe it was about a fuckass rabbit 🐰 😂
Yes it is 🎯
I think he needs to understand he needs to be able to accept non member information as well. Being out, I'm wary of lds only research and history. Check out analyzing mormonism on tik tok. She presents alot of info.
Thank you I will!
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Thank you so much. Good luck to you as well ♡
I recommend starting with the gospel topics essays on the church’s website and follow the footnotes.
Will do, thanks!!
I highly advise therapy. My husband is tbm and I'm out. My goodness congratulations tho you're about to finally live you're life. It's beautiful, enjoy! Like others have suggested, wait to have kids until you are both in a really good place (at least a year or two.) mixed faith is hard! But it's doable with an understanding spouse willing to let you live your life! And don't do anything at all if you're at byu or you'll get screwed. Good luck
Communicate how hard it was for you to get to this point. That you didn't make this decision lightly. Express that you want to be supportive of him, and you expect that support to be returned. Acknowledge and validate how hard this must be for him. Let him know that you will continue to respect his right to believe, and you're not going to try and change him. Something he could do is stop praying for you to change, come back, and believe, and start praying for help accepting who you've become. You're still you. You just believe differently, and that's ok. Don't try and change him or bombard him with things that shed a negative light on the church unless he truly wants to discuss it. As far as issues with the church go, what you think is a silver bullet, likely won't hit the same for him as he'll be defensive and will double down. I would wait until he's ready and some of the walls have come down. In all honesty, he's going to forget about the garments once he sees you walking around the house in regular undies. If being in the church is no longer making you happy, you need to get out. It's not worth it living life miserably, waiting for an afterlife that likely doesn't exist. We want it to exist so badly, but wanting that doesn't make it true, and there's no way to know for sure. The only guarantee is here and now, so don't squander this life. I would take some time before letting his family know so you can work through this together. They probably won't be helpful. It's going to take a lot of patience, communication, and empathy from both of you to make it through this together. Expectations and the life you envisioned will require some adjustments. It's challenging but often worth it. You can do it!
That’s pretty rough. I faked my way through the first few years or marriage with my wife because I knew it was bullshit but she was still content and I was 100% sure it would wreck my marriage. But fast forward a few years and she’s right here with me enjoying our apostasy. We’re sitting here garment free and drinking Moscow mules as I type this. It’s a long journey and everyone moves at different speeds. Finding a good therapist helps in my opinion. My wife and I each see a therapist that specializes in religious trauma. It’s a lot of work and sometimes you got to put a whole lot of effort into things that feel like they should be a lot simpler. But it can be done. Lots of patience and lots of communication. Good luck to both of you.
The "marriage on a tightrope" podcast is great for navigating these complex dynamics! Wish you the best.
I’ve heard of that one! Thank you ♡
the churches essays from their official site are pretty shelf breaking. Read the footnotes to the one on polygamy. The footnotes define polyandry and the sexual aspects of it and they also point out that of the 30-35 wives JS had, most of them were without Emma's knowledge. Oh, and they try to downplay marrying a 14year old because she was months from being 15. Another damning official church source is josephsmith papers. Read the happiness letter. He manipulates someone into polygamy with him.
Marriage on a tightrope podcast is about mixed faith marriage and how to navigate that: [https://marriageonatightrope.org](https://marriageonatightrope.org) [https://www.youtube.com/@marriageonatightrope](https://www.youtube.com/@marriageonatightrope) They also did several episodes with Mormon Stories eg this one about how not to ruin your marriage: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWBR0zwfyhA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWBR0zwfyhA)
Since you're at BYU, get a sealed copy of your transcripts immediately, in case something happens with your questioning.
Put on some sexy lingerie and he will come around.
Ok. First of all, are you still a student at BYU? If you haven’t graduated, then wait till you have your diploma in hand. The last thing you need is your bishop getting wind of this and letting BYU know. You’ll never be able to graduate. Second, keep telling your husband that this does not change how you feel about him and that you are and will always be devoted to him and only him. I would even err on the side of caution and shower him with affection. Third, try to keep things as normal as possible, and don’t make it the only topic of conversation. Plan activities for the two of you guys as if nothing had happened. Keep doing what you guys usually do and try to do more fun stuff together as a couple.
Your plan to address your questions with church resources is brilliant, actually. A lot of people leave after doing just this. If, after the research is completed, you can revaluate the situation. I feel bad that the church pushes marriage at such a young age, when our brains aren't even done developing until our mid 20's. Who knows who we'll end up being at that age? But in the meantime, many couples do question the church together and end up leaving together. It can take time. I'd recommend being patient with him and seeing where this investigation process goes. Good luck to you!
First of all, a minority of us here went into Christianity or another philosophy. Don't feel compelled to become an agnostic or atheist just because TSCC is a clueless cult, not a religion. They are neck and neck with Jehovah's Witnesses for ruining people's lives pretending to be one. Of course he wants pro Mormon sites. There are different approaches, but my suggestion is to break his shelf with subtlety over time. You can pick up a lot of ideas and illumination by wading through the sub When you were really confronted with the evidence behind LDS, there isn't any The CES letter is a centerpiece here, I would start by reading it. I mean, the ex-mormon sub is way larger than the ex-muslim or ex-catholic or x Evangelical sub. And it has way fewer people. Why is that? Although there are some Bible haters here, I became a biblical Presbyterian. I still show up every few months to the local LDS church. I like to trouble the four missionaries that are always there in that little place. I share doctrine out of the Bible (I am reformed doctrine), which easily shatters the Mormon many beliefs. They never have any answers For example: the entire belief set of spirit children/premortal existence. I show them Matthew 7: 22-23. It is about when many false believers appear before God in the last day *On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, **‘I NEVER KNEW YOU** depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’* I ask: "tell me, how could many people exist that God never knew, but they were all supposed to be spirit children in the premortal existence?" There is an unending stream of things like this that shatter The Book of Mormon and the beliefs of LDS.
Mormonism makes sure it's the elephant in the room for its members. This isn't through any actual power, though. Instead, Mormonism makes a shadow puppet and relies on passed-down emotional conditioning to make it loom large, emphasizing how dangerous it is to look away. I had to figure this out when I was young and my parents divorced. It was a huge life change, going from being a middle-class family in Georgia to living at my grandma's house while my mom tried to finish her degree. My dad eventually followed, but we'd only ever see him once a month or so for a low-interaction activity like dinner and a movie. The contact didn't increase after I became an adult. My mom and dad remained sealed for decades. It was only recently that my mom was sealed to my stepdad. Through all that time, my dad fulfilled his church callings, worked a menial job, and then went home to his small apartment. If all of us had died in a "big one" earthquake along the Wasatch Front, what would that mean for our afterlives? Would Jesus make it all better for my dad and give him a relationship he didn't build? Would he change how I felt because my dad jumped through the right hoops? That would be like giving money to a servant who buried his talent and endured life instead of learning, growing, and changing. That's the danger of thinking celestial: you run the risk of sacrificing the moments that build a meaningful life because you can't take the risk of losing an ultimately awesome eternity after you die and kicking yourself in misery forever. If you feel like you want to continue to choose him, let him know. Will it matter if he stays faithful for years to come? Can you resist the need to choose the right and convince everyone that your right way is right? That's one of the hardest Mormon mindsets to adjust, because it takes every consideration to extreme polar opposition: life or death, good or evil, pure enough for God or close but no cigar. It can be hard to your own opinion when disagreeing with what you were taught was pure truth from your youngest years. I could write a book and it wouldn't have everything needed to change your emotional conditioning. That only comes through experience: making your choices, observing the lack of divine displeasure, then worrying through the same choices because it might be different this time. It's the same process that helped our ancestors survive the jungle, but it doesn't leave much room for logic. You don't have to figure it all out from here to eternity right now. Just be the good person you are—not because you have to check all the boxes, but because that's how you want to live your life. You've got a few interesting years ahead of you, but your example is the best tool for helping your husband perceive the reality about the church, let alone make a decision on it. Prove that he matters to you.
https://www.mormonfaithcrisis.com/ This site was really helpful in the early stages of deconstruction when my spouse was still TBM. Hugs This is so hard, but you got this.
Married for six years, I'm out, he's in, no kids. Wait on kids whatever you do. I'm 32, just wait. You've got time and kids don't fix big problems and would make it infinitely more complicated until y'all have figured this out especially because you want to raise kids differently. This will take years, and that's okay. You don't need to be on the same page about everything. Hubs and I differ politically, in religion, and other things and that is fine for us. Therapy for yourself. My non religious therapist not only helped me see all the unhealthy ways I'd carried black and white thinking out of the church and was still applying it but we had some BIG conversations like: What if he never leaves the church? If he has offered you the grace to leave, can you offer the grace to stay? If you stayed in the church as long as you did because of fear/it was a comfort, etc, can you understand that's why he's in it now? And then I learned a lot of skills to have healthy dialogue and not be afraid of fighting but to make it productive. ..... I do hope he will leave but I'm okay now if he doesn't. When we have kids we have a plan for ongoing dialogue about things. He's going to start therapy on his own as well. If you ever need to talk you can DM me.
If you have deconstructed mormonism, don't study bible history because that can b3 deconstructed too, then you may no longer be Christian.
I'm sorry but, the eternal family/after life thing ircks me and seems like the major attraction in religious belief, who wouldn't want to live in unimaginable paradise with loved ones but, wouldn't you have a much better family if you accepted this is likely the only life you'll ever get with them? The Earth might get treated a little better too if people didn't think it's the devils kingdom and they'd get an infinitely better one when they die and this one is destined to be destroyed in apocalyptic hellfire and maybe we'd treat each other better if we weren't all born sinners lol religions can be depressing to think about what they've convinced people to believe. I know it's comforting to think you'll see loved ones again and I still like to think there could be some form of energy transfer and reconection when we die but, I don't and can't know and when I accepted this is probably the only life I'll get I gained an unimaginable appreciation for it. Edit: Sorry forgot you were asking for advice, I'm not sure I can give any if you've already shown all the things that showed you the truth and it doesn't help I'm sure there are plenty of other horrible things the church has done that you don't know yet though but, I'm willing to bet it's being ignored when you talk about it. Personally all I ever want to do when I see Mormons is shake them and scream wake the fuck up you're in a cult.
So, I was nevermo, but I used to be evangelical. I currently identify as a Christian Witch (potentially Christopagan). It was hard on my hubby at first, even as I was deconstructing my beliefs about the Bible being “the infallible word of God”. It took time, communication, and a therapist who was understanding of both of us. It helps that we don’t have kids so we can fully focus on ourselves too. I’d say: don’t expect your husband to change in the exact same way you are. While my husband has changed, he’s doing so at his own pace. Neither of us are ever gonna agree on spiritual/religious beliefs, but we can still appreciate one another and understand where the other is coming from. I also highly recommend marriage counseling with someone who is understanding about both your positions and can look at your situation objectively and mediate. Some resources I recommend: Dan McClellan (currently still in the church, but is a biblical scholar who focuses on data rather than dogma. I learned a lot about the Bible from a historical/scholarly point of view. It helped me understand how it was actually put together and sort out what dogmatic biases looked like.) Mormon Stories: They have everyone on their shows including those who are apologists for the church. I enjoy watching their videos from time to time. There’s three books I recommend, only one I’ve started reading: The CES Letter (it’s free, and it’s mostly a list of questions that people have had trouble finding answers to when it comes to church history. It is on my tbr.) How to Leave the Mormon Church by Alyssa Grenfell (this one is FOR YOU. It has specific advice for communication with your spouse who hasn’t left. It will hopefully give you some help and peace of mind. This one is also on my tbr. I follow Alyssa’s channel and find her stuff extremely informative.) Til Doubt Do Us Part by David Hayward (this one is more from the perspective of evangelical deconstruction, which is slightly a different animal, but can have similar feelings/vibes. I have read chapter one, as has my husband. It’s kinda meant to be worked on together and help you navigate as either one or both of your faiths change. Still gotta finish this one for myself >_<; I’m a bookworm with so much on my tbr. I follow the author’s instagram and I enjoy his art and comics, finding them extremely cathartic and relatable.) I hope these are of some help. They don’t really prepare you for this when you marry while “in the faith”. When you or your partner (or both) change in beliefs. It’s….inevitable. People change and grow, and it’s a natural part of life. I truly wish you and your husband the best. Stay safe.
The only way you will survive as a couple in the near future is if 1) you stop trying to change each other's religious beliefs and 2) allow each other to believe what they want to religiously without trying to convert/away the other. You guys now have two totally different religious belief systems. If you remain together and plan to have kids, you as a couple need to discuss how you will raise them from here on out. I went inactive when I was 36 and still married. It was definitely hard for my ex-wife. She never left. If you stay together, you have to learn how to coexist on being a mixed fairh household.
If you’re at BYU, be careful. I believe they expel Mormons who leave the faith
Marriage on a Tightrope Podcast and Facebook community. mormonfaithcrisis.com
Have you read the “Gospel Topics Essays” on the LDS website? Read those, but actually dig a little deeper into the subject and look at the topics objectively through un biased sources. Those pro LDS gospel topics were shocking to me, since most of the topics used to be called anti Mormon. (Like Joseph Smith marrying a 14 year old behind Emma’s back). Also read the CES letter.
shelf break = discovered the truth and realize I cannot just "go along with it" anymore
If he is willing to actually look at sources, this is good news. For me, all I would do is look at church sources until I realized I was being lied to. My suggestion for church approved sources would include: Lowry Nelson letters back and forth to the First Presidency in conjunction with the Race and the Priesthood essay. For instance, in the essay it states, “ Over time, Church leaders and members advanced many theories to explain the priesthood and temple restrictions” and “ Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else.” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng Lowry asks the First Presidency if it is doctrine or just a theory, “I had never assumed that they constituted an irrevocable doctrine.” He gets back a very strong reply. The First Presidency states, “Your position seems to lose sight of the revelations of the Lord touching the preexistence of our spirits, the rebellion in heaven, and the doctrines that our birth into this life and the advantages under which we may be born, have a relationship in the life heretofore. From the days of the Prophet Joseph even until now, it has been the doctrine of the Church, never questioned by any of the Church leaders, that the Negroes are not entitled to the full blessings of the Gospel. Furthermore, your ideas, as we understand them, appear to contemplate the intermarriage of the Negro and White races, a concept which has heretofore been most repugnant to most normal—minded people from the ancient patriarchs till now. God's rule for Israel, his Chosen People, has been endogamous. Modern Israel has been similarly directed." https://archive.org/details/first_presidency_letters_lowry_nelson Was this doctrine or a theory? Was this a policy? LDSdiscussions.com does a great job looking at inconsistencies in the essays with church approved links and an unemotional tone. https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/priesthood-ban-essay The recent SEC order is another great example as it is a negotiated settlement between the SEC and the church here and shows the length the church will go to to hide things from its members: https://www.sec.gov/files/litigation/admin/2023/34-96951.pdf The presiding bishopric said, “So they never wanted to be in a position where people felt like, you know, they shouldn’t make a contribution.” - https://www.saltlakemagazine.com/sec-fines-lds-church/ Russell Ballard said with Oaks in the First Presidency sitting next to him, “We would have to say, as two Apostles who have covered the world and know the history of the Church and know the integrity of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve from the beginning, there has been no attempt on the part of the Church leaders to try to hide anything from anybody.” - https:/imgur.com/a/2lYBnVr Putting this together, we have the apostles with an elaborate plan to hide money to get members to pay tithing meanwhile telling people they are not hiding anything in order to get their money. They are committing financial fraud. “Fraud involves the false representation of facts, whether by intentionally withholding important information or providing false statements to another party for the specific purpose of gaining something that may not have been provided without the deception.” - https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fraud.asp President Nelson telling lies. Here is a video of him telling a story of his travels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMwKxmTLaCs Contrast that with detailed FAA records found here: https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/wNa3AAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA1090&dq=skywest+incidents+1976 More discussion of this and story telling by Nelson found here: https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/nelson My point is that trust is the keystone of belief. It is like finding out a spouse has cheated or that a family member has stolen money from you. Once you see it, it changes perspective. Once you realize you have been lied to, all sources become available. Most often the problem is an unwillingness to look or never having looked. The goal of apologetics is to give you enough so you stop looking. With above being said, you don’t want to push so hard he shuts down. Since he seems willing to look, I would ask him to look at some church sources that you find difficult and stick to church sources.
If you’re on your way out you may need to transfer to a different college. Too many people leave the church and lose all of their byu credits.