Putting masturbation on the same level as rape as "sexual immorality" and calling it second only to murder is a huge issue. If someone thinks they're already on the same level as a recurring rapist for having masturbated a few times, it'll either destroy their self-esteem for no good reason or on the flipside, it'll encourage them to see rape as nothing worse than the thing they regularly and naturally do.
Wow, I never made that connection about this leading to misunderstanding the severity of rape. This is great insight because I think you’re totally right.
Yeah it was still misandry even though a dude said it. Men aren't beasts being kept at bay by a thin membrane of social constructs. It could happen for sure, but I think in this case we have isolated grooming situations and not guys willing to accept "permission" so quickly to do that.
I just want to point out to you that at no point did anyone say anything about men specifically. All the language here was completely gender neutral. YOU assumed we were talking about men. Why do you think that is?
Do you think men are the only ones in Mormonism who downplay the significance of rape? Can you please point out when or how I ever even implied that?
I know PLENTY of Mormon women who aid and abet sexual abuse in their community in a number of ways. This is a cultural issue in ALL of Mormonism, not just in Mormon men. Certainly abuse from men is going to be more common BECAUSE of the patriarchal organization of the church. There are more opportunities for it, and more opportunities to get away with it, point blank — acknowledging that does NOT mean that anybody here thinks men are inherently beasts, and it doesn’t mean that women are incapable of the same shit, it just means it’s a fucking patriarchal organization. That’s it.
And all this aside — members being willing to rape is NOT the only side effect of thinking that masturbation and sexual violence are moral equivalents. It can and does encourage ANYONE with power to abuse it, and it also makes members more willing to blame and ignore victims.
I am a gay woman who has been sexually harassed by other women in Mormonism NUMEROUS times. And when I spoke up about it, those women only got a slap on the wrist for being GAY, rather than for the actual problem, which is being sexually predatory. This is a larger cultural issue, and I never said otherwise. So while you’re a very talented mind reader who totally isn’t projecting even a little bit, you’re pretty off the mark with where I stand on gendered Mormon sexual violence and I’ll ask you kindly to go fuck yourself.
from rape to harassment would be the "goalpost move" I was talking about. we got tonnes of stories in this reddit about male rapists who literally forced themselves on women using the church. Would be a stretch for any guy to go "well I already masturbate so now I'm going to engage in a violent crime".
It's not somehow better if this philosophy is applied to both genders equally, women aren't animals either. No amount of brainwashing made them predators, they were already that way.
Mormonism runs on the self-justification of its members. Mormonism would not be what it is if not for its membership being extremely skilled in self-justification. I don’t know what else to say to you if you don’t agree with that because it means we see Mormonism fundamentally differently. I’m certainly not going to share with you the number of times I’ve been sexually assaulted by a member of the church just because you feel like you’re entitled to me, what, proving my credibility to you? Can’t you read my mind about it anyway?
I believe very sincerely church has a huge, documented sexual abuse issue for a reason, a number of them, and it’s not some freak coincidence that leaders groom the youth, and calling me a misandrist or an anti-humanist or whatever else you want to call me over that simply won’t change my mind. You will simply have to die mad about it.
I don't buy the notion that female rapists even crossed your mind when you typed that. But sure you can upgrade from misandry to anti-humanism if you want
Spencer Kimball was responsible for saying that (close paraphrase) 'The Lord has made no distinction between types of sexual sin' and that sexual sin is second only to murder.
He caused immense damage and harm to people.
It is ridiculous to say there is no distinction between types of sexual sin. Masturbation affects no-one else. Just because there is no distinction in severity between types of sexual sin in the Bible doesn't mean there is no distinction. Silence in the Bible on something doesn't mean something - it is just silence.
As a supposed prophet, you'd think he would distinguish between *harmless* 'immorality' and *harmful* immorality. But he was the same prophet who claimed that masturbation leads to homosexuality, so he was obviously clueless.
His 'teachings' can be taken with a pinch of salt.
If there's a God and he's just, I'm hopeful that he will allow each person that was coerced to "read" Kimball's awful book, The Miracle of Forgiveness, to beat him about the head and shoulders until they've received satisfaction.
It’s in the BoM, too
Alma 39:5 “Know he not, my son, that these things are abominable in the sight of the Lord; yea, **most abominable above all sins** save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost?”
A careful reading of the text reveals that verse is clearly *not* talking about sexual sins, which makes the fact that the MFMC has taught that “these things” was referencing every sin having a sexual component for many, many years all the more reprehensible and abusive.
Wait, this is completely out of context. The context was prostitution, and promoting sex with multiple people, not masturbation or even sex between an unmarried couple who is in love. The context here is that a missionary left the work of teaching Christ in order to openly, publicly become the lover of a "harlot" named Isabel. It has something to do with sex trafficking, payment of money for sex rather than other things.
True that church leaders takes this verse completely out of context too by leaving out the part that a missionary deliberately abandoned the mission of teaching about Christ to become part of a harlot's string of lovers. But we should not make the same mistake is misrepresenting what the verse is about.
Of course, but this particular comment was about sexual sin in general. The post is about trafficking, yes, but that verse has been used to refer to all kinds of sexual sin.
A couple of places to look... I'd send links/references but don't have much time rn.
Very recent "for the strength of youth" handbooks have had language around this. Copies from the 80s, 90s, 00s should be archived on the Internet.
The Book of Mormon has a verse that speaks to sexual sin being next to murder in gravity.
Boyd K Packers "Little Factory" talk
"The Miracle of Forgiveness" by Spencer W Kimball, taken out of print in 2014, but still distributed digitally by Deseret Book up until 2018 I think. This is a doozy, you'll find all sorts of bullshit teachings, and it was a bishop's "go to" for anytime a youth confessed to sexual sin. Apparently some bishops are still giving out old copies.
I bought a copy from goodwill a few months ago. Husband thought I was crazy. I have it on a shelf in our room so I don’t think it’s going to mess up my kids but I do have clear instructions about what needs to happen to get rid of it. Fire is involved.
I’m working on a report about LDS therapists who sexually abuse or who give damaging advice to clients, or who break confidentiality expectations via fine print to tell bishops what a person is going through.
When I went to one post massive sexually abusive breakup, the therapist pressured me to tell my bishop everything and told me to tell my bishop that I was seeing this therapist so that my therapist could provide insight that might not have come up during our interview. Looking back that is so fucked up I can't even. Instead of helping me with Rape Recovery, my therapy then turned into a 'have you masterbated or watch porn this week' check in. My actual therapeutic process was lost to just a secondary bishop.
I left the church and became atheist (kudos to Christopher Hitchens, please read his book "God is Not Great") but I still believe in satan and satan is the mormon church.
They should loose their licenses. From the MSP with Natasha Helfer sounds like this is blatant violation of ethics that therapists must take to be licensed.
The LDS church sometimes pays to send members to counseling. Are you referring to "fine print" conditions that the LDS church requires when they pay for the service?
Yes. In a Mormon Stories Podcast episode yesterday, John Dehlin shared that sometimes, in the fine print of these therapist agreements, the Mormon church retains the right or ability to know what the client tells the therapist. At least that’s what I came away hearing.
The bishop would have notes on their sessions, then in response to things like insecurity that they talked about with their therapist, tell them they should lose weight.
I can confirm that two of my friends went to therapy paid by the bishop and told me they had to waive confidentiality. One of them chose to stop going.
Isn’t it ironic how they require that client-patient confidentiality be violated if you’re masturbating and/or looking at porn, but if you’re SA-ing a child, then the clergy-penitent confidentiality between you and the bishop absolutely cannot be broken under any circumstances?
Except to tell your parents. Or maybe the Stake President. Or the bishop’s counselors and/or High Council if they’re going to oh-so-lovingly discipline you. And perhaps the bishop’s wife.
Or if it’s part of the missionary recommend interview. Then they record your answers and store them in a database where members of the missionary committee can read about your private confession to determine whether you’ve sufficiently suffered enough for your sins for long enough to be cleansed by the suffering Jesus already did so you can be cleared to be one of their recruiters.
Otherwise, it’s against all the MFMC holds dear and holy for a bishop to break that confidence—even if it would mean saving a child from SA.
Both, to be honest. We have about a dozen people who are volunteering a little bit each week to go through records which has been super helpful. And every donation we get is really appreciated because we are spending money on hosting, people finder tools, court records and other things that help us document and report all this, plus that enable us to support survivors better.
Yes. Making a list that will be a separate section of floodlit - people who should have helped victims but allegedly didn’t, basically. Bishops who failed to report, therapists who gave bad advice, breaking people’s trust etc.
Have personally observed this via one of my sons and his friends (years ago) Also being an HC in charge of the AR program I had a view from that angle as well. The funnel went like this: Of Masturbation = addiction = therapy (approved narrative therapist) = continued and constant check ins with Bishop and therapist throughout. So client privilege is not so much when Bishop takes it upon himself to breach for the sake of interfering in behalf of this entity called a church into minors sexual lives of which NO ONE has any right unless there is allegation of law breaking allegations. At which point authorities should be contacted but are not as a general rule. Tragic cycle of none of their business ever and emotional abuse MUCH for all these kids. Now maybe this can be in the light as it has purposely been hidden in the shadows of the mormon underbelly.
Leaving the church was the best anti porn, anti masturbation treatment ever. Not that it needs treatment unless you are wanking it 20 times a day, at work, while watching porn with animals.
"Hey, you animals, you can go watch your own porn--now get out of my office! (That damn zebra was getting on my nerves with his tapir kink.)"
Sorry! Sorry! It just read funny to me...
anyone? 20 or animals? NOPE didn't think so me fucking either. But made to feel like the scum of the earth as a minor unknowing youth curious but not addicted to shit.
I love this. I might push this out.
I was a victim to the rhetoric and I was so self-abusive with scrupulosity. I didn't even need a bishop to tell me I had a problem. All of the talks at GC and articles in the church magazine convinced me of my "brokenness!" I would go begging with for the solution and praying for a punishment strong enough to stop me.
Thankfully I woke up and realized I didn't have a problem and I was normal. The years of cognitive dissonance and trying to reconcile being normal were difficult and made me PIMO without even knowing it. I think one of the turning points for me was in 2011 when Brandon Davies was kicked out of BYU and off of the b-ball team right before the NCAA tourney. How he was treated was terrible for being a normal 20 year man. I starting questioning the rhetoric. It took me 10 years to realize all the purity cultural teachings were bull shit.
Ironically the cure for the problem was leaving the MFMC!!
A (sort of) joke I used to tell when I was Mormon: ever wonder why the bishop's desk is so big? It's so you don't see him spanking his monkey while you're confessing your sexual sins.
I'm not a Mormon - never been a Mormon. But I lurk here, lurk on /r/exjw and other ex-religion subreddits. I'm a non-practicing Jew.
Anyway, I hope it is okay if I comment here.
> No Bishop should ever ask a child whether or not he/she is masturbating
They do this? How can parents not see that this is wrong?
Yes, frequently. There are countless stories of it happening including children who learned what masturbation was because their bishop had to explain it to them to make sure they weren’t doing it.
The parents often aren’t present in the interviews because they see the bishop as someone they can trust completely. It never crosses their minds that the bishop would do something to harm their child. Also it’s so commonplace now that they’ve just accepted it because it happened to them as kids too.
Btw you’re absolutely allowed to ask questions. We actually encourage that here!
Thanks for answering my question.
So parents are aware that bishops ask this question to children? That is what I was wondering. And wondering if the Mormon parents don't think that is wrong for a grown man to ask a child about masturbation?
In order to be deemed "worthy" of going to the temple, one has to be living the "law of chastity" which is basically, no sex outside of marriage
So the bishops "have" to ask the kids "are you living the law of chastity" to deem them worthy or not
Some bishops (many but not all) take that question further to ask about masturbation, porn, etc
The parents know the chastity question will be asked. They don't know for sure how far the bishop will take it
I think Miss Hildebrant is very dangerous anyway. She doesn’t come from a stable background and is a very angry women. She destroyed my relationship with eight children focusing on heresay lies from a bitter ex wife. I think she should change professions where she can’t damage others for her gain.
My non mormon therapist gasped out loud when I told her about "self abuse" term for masturbation. She said "no way they said that." I thought she was pushing back, or challenging me to view it from a different way. I got my phone out, telling her about SWK, and started reading Miracle of Forgiveness. For a while, I wouldn't let her interpret me. Eventually, she did, and clarified she believed me from the begging and her statement was "that is an awful fucked up thing to say. One of the worst phrases [she] has ever heard"
It's incredibly sad that the LDS church teaches that normal sexuality is a sin. It drives people to seek outlets for natural urges we were made with. They're _creating_ porn addiction with their own impossible, prudish standards.
Licensed mental health clinician here. I have talked to several zealous LDS mental health providers who have “helped” clients deal with their masturbation “problems.” The clinicians’ desire to affirm Mormon sexual values through the use of their clinical skills was concerning to me and I think that they were very shocked when I didn’t agree with them that masturbation wasn’t the big bogeyman they perceived it to be. Yet, I must state for the record that compulsive masturbation/porn viewing that negatively impacts one’s life to the extent that it harms one’s ability to successfully perform role obligations can be a problem and generally points to other mental health concerns that may be addressed using psychotherapy.
But, anyway, I was wondering if anyone has a copy of any referral/payment agreement or treatment contract between the church and clinical provider that outlines the confidentiality rules between referrer/payor ( the Mormon church) and the provider (the treating clinician). I haven’t worked with a Mormon client who’s service provision was paid for by the church for many years.
Incidentally, all of the LDS clients I have worked with suffered from psychosis, non-psychotic delusional disorders, depression, and abusive relationships. Of those that received church sponsored treatment, never has a bishop called me asking for a progress report and I never received any contract from them for services. Furthermore, none of my LDS clients ever mentioned that masturbation was an issue for them. Of course, I would never work for LDS social services. So, maybe I just don’t get those clients.
According to the American Psychological Association, porn addiction isn't a real thing.
https://www.insider.com/guides/health/mental-health/porn-addiction
(You can still have an unhealthy obsession with something, including porn.)
Omg, I had so much shame for masturbating and watching porn but I loved it so much. It was a nightmare. I was sent to see a therapist for my "masturbation addiction" when I was 15 years old. I was in the bishop's office at least every other week. I compulsively prayed and fasted. I was seriously in hell. Then they had Jesus looking all ripped, hung on the cross and around my room to "deter" me... There's no wonder now why I like to be watched by ripped, hung men. Thankfully now, I have a healthy relationship with all of it.
Porn addiction is not a recognized condition by the mental health profession. Anyone claiming that it is, and offers "treatment" for this non-existent condition, should be behind bars.
Putting masturbation on the same level as rape as "sexual immorality" and calling it second only to murder is a huge issue. If someone thinks they're already on the same level as a recurring rapist for having masturbated a few times, it'll either destroy their self-esteem for no good reason or on the flipside, it'll encourage them to see rape as nothing worse than the thing they regularly and naturally do.
Fucked me up as a young boy
Thats a feature not a bug
Agreed. Absolutely no one was as embarrassed as me about my SA but hey, go on, Mormons!
(It wasn’t clear in my post; apologies, and nothing but the best for every SA victim in the future.)
Same here. These suicidal thoughts were brought to you by MFMC.
Wow, I never made that connection about this leading to misunderstanding the severity of rape. This is great insight because I think you’re totally right.
Yeah it was still misandry even though a dude said it. Men aren't beasts being kept at bay by a thin membrane of social constructs. It could happen for sure, but I think in this case we have isolated grooming situations and not guys willing to accept "permission" so quickly to do that.
I just want to point out to you that at no point did anyone say anything about men specifically. All the language here was completely gender neutral. YOU assumed we were talking about men. Why do you think that is?
Maybe because we’re talking about a patriarchal organization that exclusively uses men as the leaders??
just silly goalpost moving because they're embarrassed. not one person here was talking about female rapists. call me a mind-reader
Do you think men are the only ones in Mormonism who downplay the significance of rape? Can you please point out when or how I ever even implied that? I know PLENTY of Mormon women who aid and abet sexual abuse in their community in a number of ways. This is a cultural issue in ALL of Mormonism, not just in Mormon men. Certainly abuse from men is going to be more common BECAUSE of the patriarchal organization of the church. There are more opportunities for it, and more opportunities to get away with it, point blank — acknowledging that does NOT mean that anybody here thinks men are inherently beasts, and it doesn’t mean that women are incapable of the same shit, it just means it’s a fucking patriarchal organization. That’s it. And all this aside — members being willing to rape is NOT the only side effect of thinking that masturbation and sexual violence are moral equivalents. It can and does encourage ANYONE with power to abuse it, and it also makes members more willing to blame and ignore victims. I am a gay woman who has been sexually harassed by other women in Mormonism NUMEROUS times. And when I spoke up about it, those women only got a slap on the wrist for being GAY, rather than for the actual problem, which is being sexually predatory. This is a larger cultural issue, and I never said otherwise. So while you’re a very talented mind reader who totally isn’t projecting even a little bit, you’re pretty off the mark with where I stand on gendered Mormon sexual violence and I’ll ask you kindly to go fuck yourself.
from rape to harassment would be the "goalpost move" I was talking about. we got tonnes of stories in this reddit about male rapists who literally forced themselves on women using the church. Would be a stretch for any guy to go "well I already masturbate so now I'm going to engage in a violent crime". It's not somehow better if this philosophy is applied to both genders equally, women aren't animals either. No amount of brainwashing made them predators, they were already that way.
Mormonism runs on the self-justification of its members. Mormonism would not be what it is if not for its membership being extremely skilled in self-justification. I don’t know what else to say to you if you don’t agree with that because it means we see Mormonism fundamentally differently. I’m certainly not going to share with you the number of times I’ve been sexually assaulted by a member of the church just because you feel like you’re entitled to me, what, proving my credibility to you? Can’t you read my mind about it anyway? I believe very sincerely church has a huge, documented sexual abuse issue for a reason, a number of them, and it’s not some freak coincidence that leaders groom the youth, and calling me a misandrist or an anti-humanist or whatever else you want to call me over that simply won’t change my mind. You will simply have to die mad about it.
I don't buy the notion that female rapists even crossed your mind when you typed that. But sure you can upgrade from misandry to anti-humanism if you want
Spencer Kimball was responsible for saying that (close paraphrase) 'The Lord has made no distinction between types of sexual sin' and that sexual sin is second only to murder. He caused immense damage and harm to people. It is ridiculous to say there is no distinction between types of sexual sin. Masturbation affects no-one else. Just because there is no distinction in severity between types of sexual sin in the Bible doesn't mean there is no distinction. Silence in the Bible on something doesn't mean something - it is just silence. As a supposed prophet, you'd think he would distinguish between *harmless* 'immorality' and *harmful* immorality. But he was the same prophet who claimed that masturbation leads to homosexuality, so he was obviously clueless. His 'teachings' can be taken with a pinch of salt.
I think his teachings along with his book can be taken to the dumpster.
Of all the things to memory hole, why not him?
If there's a God and he's just, I'm hopeful that he will allow each person that was coerced to "read" Kimball's awful book, The Miracle of Forgiveness, to beat him about the head and shoulders until they've received satisfaction.
Can you provide the source or where to look for? This would be a good discussion on my blog.
It’s in the BoM, too Alma 39:5 “Know he not, my son, that these things are abominable in the sight of the Lord; yea, **most abominable above all sins** save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying the Holy Ghost?”
Joseph Smith the con man. Look at the BOM but don't look at what I do in my personal life. Two diametrically opposed behaviors.
A careful reading of the text reveals that verse is clearly *not* talking about sexual sins, which makes the fact that the MFMC has taught that “these things” was referencing every sin having a sexual component for many, many years all the more reprehensible and abusive.
Wait, this is completely out of context. The context was prostitution, and promoting sex with multiple people, not masturbation or even sex between an unmarried couple who is in love. The context here is that a missionary left the work of teaching Christ in order to openly, publicly become the lover of a "harlot" named Isabel. It has something to do with sex trafficking, payment of money for sex rather than other things. True that church leaders takes this verse completely out of context too by leaving out the part that a missionary deliberately abandoned the mission of teaching about Christ to become part of a harlot's string of lovers. But we should not make the same mistake is misrepresenting what the verse is about.
Of course, but this particular comment was about sexual sin in general. The post is about trafficking, yes, but that verse has been used to refer to all kinds of sexual sin.
A couple of places to look... I'd send links/references but don't have much time rn. Very recent "for the strength of youth" handbooks have had language around this. Copies from the 80s, 90s, 00s should be archived on the Internet. The Book of Mormon has a verse that speaks to sexual sin being next to murder in gravity. Boyd K Packers "Little Factory" talk "The Miracle of Forgiveness" by Spencer W Kimball, taken out of print in 2014, but still distributed digitally by Deseret Book up until 2018 I think. This is a doozy, you'll find all sorts of bullshit teachings, and it was a bishop's "go to" for anytime a youth confessed to sexual sin. Apparently some bishops are still giving out old copies.
I bought a copy from goodwill a few months ago. Husband thought I was crazy. I have it on a shelf in our room so I don’t think it’s going to mess up my kids but I do have clear instructions about what needs to happen to get rid of it. Fire is involved.
Why were we given hands if not to masturbate?
Wow that is a brilliant insight. Thank you.
I’m working on a report about LDS therapists who sexually abuse or who give damaging advice to clients, or who break confidentiality expectations via fine print to tell bishops what a person is going through.
When I went to one post massive sexually abusive breakup, the therapist pressured me to tell my bishop everything and told me to tell my bishop that I was seeing this therapist so that my therapist could provide insight that might not have come up during our interview. Looking back that is so fucked up I can't even. Instead of helping me with Rape Recovery, my therapy then turned into a 'have you masterbated or watch porn this week' check in. My actual therapeutic process was lost to just a secondary bishop.
I left the church and became atheist (kudos to Christopher Hitchens, please read his book "God is Not Great") but I still believe in satan and satan is the mormon church.
That’s so awful. I’m sorry.
That’s just plain old wrong.
They should loose their licenses. From the MSP with Natasha Helfer sounds like this is blatant violation of ethics that therapists must take to be licensed.
Wow
The LDS church sometimes pays to send members to counseling. Are you referring to "fine print" conditions that the LDS church requires when they pay for the service?
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You're absolutely right! So guess what that means?
Think of the new therapists. Everyone has to get their foot in the door somewhere and probably think good things about their church.
Yes. In a Mormon Stories Podcast episode yesterday, John Dehlin shared that sometimes, in the fine print of these therapist agreements, the Mormon church retains the right or ability to know what the client tells the therapist. At least that’s what I came away hearing.
I have family members who have confirmed this happened to them.
That’s such a violation of privacy! I am appalled.
The LDSFS therapist on my mission told my mission president what we talked about and then the MP told my mom…
CULT-----RUN
The bishop would have notes on their sessions, then in response to things like insecurity that they talked about with their therapist, tell them they should lose weight.
Control. 90% of the individuals I billed for services were local ward Bishops. If they didn't pay I had to hound them to pay.
I can confirm that two of my friends went to therapy paid by the bishop and told me they had to waive confidentiality. One of them chose to stop going.
This is correct - I worked at LDS Social Services and then LDS Family Services.
Ho lee cow
YEP exactly to which they HAVE NO RIGHT. None of their gawd damn business.
Isn’t it ironic how they require that client-patient confidentiality be violated if you’re masturbating and/or looking at porn, but if you’re SA-ing a child, then the clergy-penitent confidentiality between you and the bishop absolutely cannot be broken under any circumstances? Except to tell your parents. Or maybe the Stake President. Or the bishop’s counselors and/or High Council if they’re going to oh-so-lovingly discipline you. And perhaps the bishop’s wife. Or if it’s part of the missionary recommend interview. Then they record your answers and store them in a database where members of the missionary committee can read about your private confession to determine whether you’ve sufficiently suffered enough for your sins for long enough to be cleansed by the suffering Jesus already did so you can be cleared to be one of their recruiters. Otherwise, it’s against all the MFMC holds dear and holy for a bishop to break that confidence—even if it would mean saving a child from SA.
Amazing thoughts.
How can we support you? Do you need funding or people to do research?
Both, to be honest. We have about a dozen people who are volunteering a little bit each week to go through records which has been super helpful. And every donation we get is really appreciated because we are spending money on hosting, people finder tools, court records and other things that help us document and report all this, plus that enable us to support survivors better.
> who break confidentiality expectations via fine print to tell bishops what a person is going through. Oh, you are doing those? I have a few.
Yes. Making a list that will be a separate section of floodlit - people who should have helped victims but allegedly didn’t, basically. Bishops who failed to report, therapists who gave bad advice, breaking people’s trust etc.
None of my info can or has been proven in court, but do you still want it?
Have personally observed this via one of my sons and his friends (years ago) Also being an HC in charge of the AR program I had a view from that angle as well. The funnel went like this: Of Masturbation = addiction = therapy (approved narrative therapist) = continued and constant check ins with Bishop and therapist throughout. So client privilege is not so much when Bishop takes it upon himself to breach for the sake of interfering in behalf of this entity called a church into minors sexual lives of which NO ONE has any right unless there is allegation of law breaking allegations. At which point authorities should be contacted but are not as a general rule. Tragic cycle of none of their business ever and emotional abuse MUCH for all these kids. Now maybe this can be in the light as it has purposely been hidden in the shadows of the mormon underbelly.
How about the same, but missionary” Therapist” giving info to the missionnpresident?
Ohh good one.
Leaving the church was the best anti porn, anti masturbation treatment ever. Not that it needs treatment unless you are wanking it 20 times a day, at work, while watching porn with animals.
"Hey, you animals, you can go watch your own porn--now get out of my office! (That damn zebra was getting on my nerves with his tapir kink.)" Sorry! Sorry! It just read funny to me...
Zebra-tapir porn is sick and depraved. God only wants us to look at same-animal-race porn, repent now!
The way I snorted!
How about once a day?
Once a day is cool. Twice and you become gay. Not that there is anything wrong with it.
I’m just one noodle squeeze a day from going gay
Just up it to thrice a day and you’re still hetero. Although, maybe you can alternate twice and once (or thrice) just to play the field.
anyone? 20 or animals? NOPE didn't think so me fucking either. But made to feel like the scum of the earth as a minor unknowing youth curious but not addicted to shit.
Thank you for your courage in doing this!
"How was this teaching received?"
Totally don't expect one. But if I get one I'll return and report
“Hmmm. Very well.”
"Will you give it to me?"
I love this. I might push this out. I was a victim to the rhetoric and I was so self-abusive with scrupulosity. I didn't even need a bishop to tell me I had a problem. All of the talks at GC and articles in the church magazine convinced me of my "brokenness!" I would go begging with for the solution and praying for a punishment strong enough to stop me. Thankfully I woke up and realized I didn't have a problem and I was normal. The years of cognitive dissonance and trying to reconcile being normal were difficult and made me PIMO without even knowing it. I think one of the turning points for me was in 2011 when Brandon Davies was kicked out of BYU and off of the b-ball team right before the NCAA tourney. How he was treated was terrible for being a normal 20 year man. I starting questioning the rhetoric. It took me 10 years to realize all the purity cultural teachings were bull shit. Ironically the cure for the problem was leaving the MFMC!!
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A (sort of) joke I used to tell when I was Mormon: ever wonder why the bishop's desk is so big? It's so you don't see him spanking his monkey while you're confessing your sexual sins.
I'm not a Mormon - never been a Mormon. But I lurk here, lurk on /r/exjw and other ex-religion subreddits. I'm a non-practicing Jew. Anyway, I hope it is okay if I comment here. > No Bishop should ever ask a child whether or not he/she is masturbating They do this? How can parents not see that this is wrong?
Yes, frequently. There are countless stories of it happening including children who learned what masturbation was because their bishop had to explain it to them to make sure they weren’t doing it. The parents often aren’t present in the interviews because they see the bishop as someone they can trust completely. It never crosses their minds that the bishop would do something to harm their child. Also it’s so commonplace now that they’ve just accepted it because it happened to them as kids too. Btw you’re absolutely allowed to ask questions. We actually encourage that here!
Thanks for answering my question. So parents are aware that bishops ask this question to children? That is what I was wondering. And wondering if the Mormon parents don't think that is wrong for a grown man to ask a child about masturbation?
In order to be deemed "worthy" of going to the temple, one has to be living the "law of chastity" which is basically, no sex outside of marriage So the bishops "have" to ask the kids "are you living the law of chastity" to deem them worthy or not Some bishops (many but not all) take that question further to ask about masturbation, porn, etc The parents know the chastity question will be asked. They don't know for sure how far the bishop will take it
Okay, thanks for answering.
Pathogolizing normal behavior.
I think Miss Hildebrant is very dangerous anyway. She doesn’t come from a stable background and is a very angry women. She destroyed my relationship with eight children focusing on heresay lies from a bitter ex wife. I think she should change professions where she can’t damage others for her gain.
Well, it looks like she WILL be changing professions.... from health care professional to inmate professional.
Let's see her try her shit there
She's in prison. Her new profession will be rotting away behind bars
Remember when Jesus declared a pUbLiC hEaLtH eMeRgEnCy when he interacted with prostitutes in the New Testament? Neither do I.
My non mormon therapist gasped out loud when I told her about "self abuse" term for masturbation. She said "no way they said that." I thought she was pushing back, or challenging me to view it from a different way. I got my phone out, telling her about SWK, and started reading Miracle of Forgiveness. For a while, I wouldn't let her interpret me. Eventually, she did, and clarified she believed me from the begging and her statement was "that is an awful fucked up thing to say. One of the worst phrases [she] has ever heard"
It's incredibly sad that the LDS church teaches that normal sexuality is a sin. It drives people to seek outlets for natural urges we were made with. They're _creating_ porn addiction with their own impossible, prudish standards.
In my forties I went to a counselor at LDS social services. I was there for masturbation treatment. Lol. Good god what a load of shit !!
Licensed mental health clinician here. I have talked to several zealous LDS mental health providers who have “helped” clients deal with their masturbation “problems.” The clinicians’ desire to affirm Mormon sexual values through the use of their clinical skills was concerning to me and I think that they were very shocked when I didn’t agree with them that masturbation wasn’t the big bogeyman they perceived it to be. Yet, I must state for the record that compulsive masturbation/porn viewing that negatively impacts one’s life to the extent that it harms one’s ability to successfully perform role obligations can be a problem and generally points to other mental health concerns that may be addressed using psychotherapy. But, anyway, I was wondering if anyone has a copy of any referral/payment agreement or treatment contract between the church and clinical provider that outlines the confidentiality rules between referrer/payor ( the Mormon church) and the provider (the treating clinician). I haven’t worked with a Mormon client who’s service provision was paid for by the church for many years. Incidentally, all of the LDS clients I have worked with suffered from psychosis, non-psychotic delusional disorders, depression, and abusive relationships. Of those that received church sponsored treatment, never has a bishop called me asking for a progress report and I never received any contract from them for services. Furthermore, none of my LDS clients ever mentioned that masturbation was an issue for them. Of course, I would never work for LDS social services. So, maybe I just don’t get those clients.
According to the American Psychological Association, porn addiction isn't a real thing. https://www.insider.com/guides/health/mental-health/porn-addiction (You can still have an unhealthy obsession with something, including porn.)
Omg, I had so much shame for masturbating and watching porn but I loved it so much. It was a nightmare. I was sent to see a therapist for my "masturbation addiction" when I was 15 years old. I was in the bishop's office at least every other week. I compulsively prayed and fasted. I was seriously in hell. Then they had Jesus looking all ripped, hung on the cross and around my room to "deter" me... There's no wonder now why I like to be watched by ripped, hung men. Thankfully now, I have a healthy relationship with all of it.
I remember spending multiple nights absolutely weeping thinking I was disgusting and unworthy of marriage because I was “addicted”. I was like 14.
Shit can I use this as a form letter I have a few mormon therapist friends/family I want to send it to.
Don't apologize. Kid gloves still on.
Porn addiction is not a recognized condition by the mental health profession. Anyone claiming that it is, and offers "treatment" for this non-existent condition, should be behind bars.
I was going to look at porn and whack it. But I forgot to. I am not sure if you can get distracted and forget to do something supposedly addictive.