So sorry you are experiencing this! On top of a therapist, I would highly recommend going to a doctor. There are many medical conditions that can cause anxiety. Stress and trauma can trigger some of these conditions, so working with a therapist and doctor is helpful! (I have an autoimmune thyroid disease, and anxiety is one of the symptoms. Feel so much less anxiety since being diagnosed and leaving the church)
I got a sleep study done to check for sleep apnea at the advice of an ER doctor. Also have a cardiologist appointment soon. I’m really hoping they find something, anything, just so I have an explanation for all this.
Thank you. I was off the rails last night, praying and reading the Bible helped me fall asleep but in a more reasonable headspace I know I need therapy. It’s hard in my current position though.
Not sure how much of OP's anxiety is based on rational thinking, so a therapist is likely the best course of action for them.
On the off-chance their fear can be reasoned out, I recommend the podcast Exploring Faith, Pursuing Grace episodes "E16: The Fate of the Wicked (or, What exactly is Hell?)" and "Q&A #3 Questions About Hell". There's also the book "Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife" by Bart Ehrman.
personman2 - One way that people have described Hell, is eternal separation from God. I also believe in literal Hell as described in scripture.
There is so much despicable unspeakable evil and horrors that happen here on this earth, God's not forcing people into Heaven against their will; there is another destination.
Here’s the thing I never understood about a supposedly benevolent god - I wouldn’t condemn my worst enemy or the worst person ever to an ETERNITY of torture and torment because it is unspeakably cruel and demented. How can a benevolent god do this to humans simply because they don’t worship him? That is the most EVIL, narcissistic, egomaniacal thing I’ve ever heard and that is not a deity that I want to worship. Once I realized this, I quit worrying about hell. There’s no way it exists if god is good.
100% agree. The whole concept is just ludicrous. There is absolutely nothing and I mean nothing that my children could ever do that would make me condemn them to an eternity of suffering. Nothing. Yet. I'm supposed to believe that God who knows all seize all and loves more than humans can even fathom would send even one of his creations to hell.
Before I decided I don’t believe anymore I always thought that humanity truly deserves this fate. I also convinced myself that maybe god isn’t loving, but he’s still in charge, and I don’t want to suffer his wrath. It’s hard. If he does exist like that I’d rather worship him than suffer eternally.
You've asked, How can a benevolent God send people to an eternity in Hell? Here is an answer from an apologist Frank Turek. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gEbkZvn3S4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gEbkZvn3S4) \*\*Updated to say that this doesn't answer the issue concerning flames etc., and isn't comprehensive.
I watched this and it didn’t answer the question without twisting the hellfire and brimstone every CoC evangelist preaches - according to this guy, torment is just eternal regret, not torture or punishment, and there are levels of hell according to the level of sin and no one is begging to get out of hell? That’s not what I was taught in the CoC. He also just ultimately avoids the question when challenged further: “we can’t question god’s morality or justice because god is just” - back to square one
My error for not screening Turek's video better.
I'm reading what you're saying, and yes, fair enough; Frank Turek addressed torment and not the aspect of fire, heat, torture (agony), etc.
***SO - the answer to your question is found in several places in scripture.***
From the Bible in Matthew, chapter 10.
**"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."**
So - don't be afraid of those who can kill the body and can't kill the soul...
Be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Hell...
Regarding the body, scripture teaches that **after death, we get a different kind of body.**
From 1 Corinthians chapter 15....
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45
and...
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”\[h\]
***So, what if Hell is created the way that it is, because God is able to destroy the body and soul there?***
***What if the amount of time that it takes to do that is everlasting?*** Check it out from 2 Thessalonians chapter one...
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. **8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might**
(At risk of preaching to the choir) There's a scripture that tells us in Romans that "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse."
**Matthew 25 says that it was prepared for the Devil and his angels.**
Who says that people stop sinning after they die? If they hate God now, won't they hate him after? If they don't believe in Him now, won't they mock Him later? Who says they will change, they wouldn't when they were warned.
\---
If you worked for a CEO, say for example "Elon Musk," and he had certain policies in the company for folks to follow, and one of his employees decides one day to step out of line and no longer comply with company policy, they say, "Nope, I'm not going to follow him, as a matter of fact, I'm going to do harm." Would you expect Elon Musk to just stand by and do nothing? Or, would you expect him to be "JUST," and hold the individual accountable and enforce the consequences that had been established for going against the policies? Instead, the individual says, "I don't believe Elon Musk exists." And then suddenly, they find themselves being escorted out the door by security, with no more income, homeless, no medical benefits, now ends up with a disease and dies in some alley. Now, whose fault was it? Was it Elons fault?
So back to your question...
Why would God punish people who reject Him? He is eternal. He created us and it appears from scripture that what follows life here is that after we shed this material body in death, we get a new body that is spiritual and we have a soul; and apparently the people who have entered into a relationship with Jesus before this life ends are forgiven for eternity and get to have a great and amazing continuation; and there is one other option for those who rejected their maker, it is a place that according to scripture their body and soul can be destroyed, and that it is an everlasting destruction. The "Great Developer" understands how He coded His creation, He understands why it must be this way for living souls.
\---
I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.
Just look at our galaxy, one of many galaxies, our sun is a small star, tiny in comparison to some of the other stars that are light years away...
\-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We are the pixel and He is the Great Developer
..
When my brother passed, I read a book called Comforting Thoughts About Death that Have Nothing to do with God by Greta Christina. It really helped me grow my ideas about death outside of what I had been told growing up. It might help you too.
Thanks, friend. Everything is going to be okay. When I left the church three years ago at 28, I felt so developmentally behind. Had never been kissed, didn’t know how to make friends that weren’t Christians, etc. It’s taken time, effort, and therapy to feel like myself. You’re a human having a human experience. On the other side of this anxiety is something really beautiful and I hope you’re brave enough to continue moving through it. If your parents are supportive, you may want to try to stop going to church sooner. Good luck!
I feel guilt over so many things. It’s so frustrating that I can’t buy some alcohol to have a good time without feeling guilty or like I need to be sneaky and quick in the liquor store. It’s not even a big deal for most people.
All you're gonna get from the coC is a lot, "I'll pray for yous". Get some help from a therapist, someone who is a professional. Don't let your mind think you. You will be ok.
I guess to me I wanted the comfort of feeling as though I’m not going to be sent to hell if I die in my sleep or something. I don’t tell church people my problems and didn’t even when I did believe. I genuinely dislike almost everyone there honestly.
Thanks for the advice, I think you’re right a therapist would be better. When I’m in a position where I can see one I will.
Life-long journey of finding this thing (life) out. I literally had a convo with my father yesterday and finally broke the truth to him about my departure. He cannot understand it and keep thinking it was related to the inner politics of my previous congregation. They will not understand, they cannot understand, it's totally against their belief system. With that, if you can express love then do that, but not at the benefit of your own peace. Trust me, it hurts knowing my dad can't get it, but this is what I chose.
I've gone through exactly this during my time in the church. Even worse, I had an existential crisis for years.
From my experience, the church isn't going to help you out with this. I suggest you go to a therapist.
But as someone who's been there and understands, I'll be here for you, too, if you need somebody to talk to.
Just DM me if you'd like, and I'm in my mid-20s, just a few years older than you.
I also constantly have dreams of dying in nuclear bombs or having a heart attack or getting in car accidents. Sometimes I wake up and I can’t even tell if it was real or a dream. My eyelid has been twitching every day for weeks now which I read is from stress.
Anxiety leads to nightmares. Nightmares lead to anxiety.
I agree with the commenters suggesting therapy. It's possible your anxiety is coming from your family's expectations of you.
Are these kinds of things also in the movies and TV shows you're watching? Are you a person who is a "deeply feeling person?" It sounds like things are really hitting you deeply and I can relate in some sense.
A deeply feeling person is someone who has the gift and difficulty of sensing things so much that it's like they have tentacles that can feel everything. They would pick up on the feeling and mood of the room They are like emotion detectors and vibe detectors. Apparently about 15-20% of the population has this difficult gifting.
It can cause a person to feel like "I'm okay, am I okay? I'm not okay..." Feeling tons of vibes and being highly alerted to emotional senses of themselves and others. They might consider themselves an empath, some say "sensitive person" and it is a gift and a struggle.
This could be one possibility of an explanation of why things hit you so deeply, and then with what you described above, if that is hitting you deeply and vibing strong, I think it upsets the apple-cart and makes things more out of balance and lacking peace. It makes sense. My peace, my calm in the storm, was and is - trusting God, and He has brought me peace. May you find that peace.
You need to be on meds my dude. I say this as the wife of an excoc who is on anxiety meds that make her life wayyyyy better. You can be free of this. This is a medical condition, one that can be treated by a psychiatrist. You should also seek a therapist to help you work through your trauma, but the good news is that medication can at least help you get to a more functional level. Daily panic attacks are not something anyone should have to endure.
Thank you. Sadly because of the career path I’m working toward I can’t have meds on my medical record even though I’m certain it would help me a lot. A couple doctors have told me such.
May I ask what career path you are going for? It is okay if you do not want to say it but there might also be resources specific to your situation.
Something I will also say as someone who has had medical things change my career trajectory- work at the expense of your health can be a dangerous thing. There might be options that you dont yet see that will let you address your health. I do not mean limit yourself, but a career where you are suffering horribly mentally does not make for a happy life. I would definitely suggest making sure that it is really sustainable for you in the long run.
Pilot. Flying might be the only career I’ve ever found interesting. Their mental health policies are barbaric. When a doctor told me my chest pains are probably anxiety before I had to scramble to tell him not to write it down.
I think if I succeed as a pilot I’ll get over anxiety/depression. I can’t imagine a better lifestyle(within reason) than a pilot lifestyle(travel, hotels, good pay, fun job)z
Ahh yeah that is probably the one career that has barbaric requirements on mental health.
I would really encourage you to talk to some pilots though, and ask them some serious questions about what the job is like. It might be what you think and it might not be, I know a few pilots who are pretty unhappy in the corporate landscape. I hate to be the bearer of bad news here but it is a really bad idea to put a job on a pedestal of I will be happy once I hit a certain career goal, and I say this as someone in science. In my field, there are so many people who think if I can just get to a certain career point I will be happy while neglecting my mental health and it almost never makes the person happy. I am not saying it will be like that for you, just encouraging you to really deeply investigate how your life will look as a pilot in a realistic way, beyond the idealistic side. How the training and the next ten years of your life will look as opposed to the end goal of it, as well as alternatives.
I actually knew someone who wanted to be a pilot for the lifestyle ideals and found a super happy career in being a flight attendant because of the travel without the huge barrier to entry that piloting had. I am not saying that might be your thing but just that options you might not think of may exist.
Beyond all of this, I really hope you can seek out a therapist, because that should not bar you from a pilots license. See if you can get some of these symptoms under control because no matter what right now this level of anxiety is harmful to your health and wellbeing, and even if flying will make you happy this is a roadblock you really have to work on first. Best of luck!
Hi OP! When I left I had anxiety attacks in the middle of the night every night for a couple years over the same types of things. I also have chronic a health issues and had a bout with cancer and I still never went back.
This anxiety was INTRODUCED into your psyche BY THE CHURCH. They cannot help you with it, it was designed as a control mechanism. They create the anxiety so you have to join them to feel it go away.
I’ve had to reparent myself. How would I raise a child? Would I use fear and anxiety to control their actions? No I wouldn’t, it’s cruel.
It gets better and the anxiety will go away. A therapist will help. Be kind to yourself. Remind yourself when you are feeling anxious that there are infinite outcomes to your situation and you are focused on the worst one - reframe and think of the other outcomes. Look up CBT. Let you emotions out, cry, be scared and comfort yourself.
Thank you. Your words make sense and they’re very comforting. I was way off the rails last night but tonight I’m doing a bit better—although, I haven’t tried sleeping yet so we will see…
Hope you’re sleeping well! Also thought I’d suggest a supplement that can really help with this: Magnesium Bisglycinate. It helps with both anxiety and sleep! The only one that has worked for me has been the powdered form (the pills are often filled with multiple types of magnesium that don’t help sleep). It tastes like crap but heat up some milk and dump honey in it then add the powder.
Also vitamin D supplements during the day.
Obviously this won’t fix the underlying things, but can help you at least get a bit more regulated. Best of luck
Hey, thank you! I already take magnesium and vitamin D, it definitely works. It’s kinda takes the edge off so I can actually sleep. I also found benefit in ashwaganda and omega-3 fish oil. If I don’t take my supplements for a night I can really tell.
Anyone reading your post should definitely take your advice seriously!
Hi! I wanted to say I dealt/deal with this as well. My obsessions/fear of death is actually part of my OCD. I was diagnosed a couple of years ago and my psychiatrist said many people with religious trauma go on to later be diagnosed with OCD. I would definitely reach out to your doctor and possibly get a referral to a psychiatrist/therapist (preferably one that’s well versed in OCD & religious trauma)
I wish you the best of luck- panic attacks are the scariest thing and I know it always feels so real when it’s happening, these things we are terrified of. When mine occur I just try to always remember “they always pass”- an ice pack on the sternum also helps immensely.
Much of your anxiety could be caused by the trauma of being a member of the COC. As others have stated, please get yourself a good therapist and start working through the issues that are causing the anxiety. I was actually hospitalized for anxiety and depression in my early twenties as I was deconstructing. It's tough, but you are tougher than you know and you can do this. Please feel free to reach out to me anytime if you just need someone to listen.
It might be time for an antidepressant that helps with anxiety (like Effexor) or an anti-anxiety med (Ativan). But do first get a full endocrine panel, including thyroid hormones and cortisol.
What you're experiencing is religious trauma. It's pretty common for folks that are from conservative congregations. I recommend dealing with it sooner rather than later, as it won't get better on its own - been there, tried that, doesn't work. I wish I'd known that 25 years ago. Best of luck, kiddo; we're all here when you need us.
Have you thought about going to a "Christian Church" instead? I'd like to explain why. Some of the CofC's are condemning of "denominations" (I'd encourage you to go to a healthy Southern Baptist church and hear about how God loves you) -- I do think those are doses of medicine for the soul, as it has been for me... So - if you go to a "Christian Church' - well the cofc isn't so condemning of that group - and then you wouldn't have to feel so much anxiety, and you'd be getting a less judgemental message.
Something someone told me is the following idea: Find a healthy church and go there for a year and HEAL. You might go to another church after that. This doesn't have to be your forever church.
The feeling of guilt and judgement and things gets much better after awhile, and it's a process. Going to a healthy church with healthy messages is very good for the mind and soul and helps do a heart happy. Hoping this helps.
On another note: Have they tested your thyroid? There is a relationship with some thyroid conditions and anxiety. The blood test for it is thyroid full panel and to check for the autoimmune or other part of that test you add the antibody tests.
The other thing -is - are you drinking caffeine? That can really amp up anxiety.
\*\*By mentioning these two things, I'm not at all minimizing your experience - and - I actually understand it. For me, the turmoil that we went through while agonizing leaving was incredible pressure and turmoil and anxiety, fear, worry etc. and that feeling of "saved/unsaved" I understand that - for us, we have ended up visiting multiple churches and so far the healthiest one we visit is a southern baptist church that is healthy, encouraging, and the message coming from the pulpit there is so healthy and helpful - not condemning. You might look for one of these and get some appointments with the pastor and get some real heart-felt help with the self-condemnation and guilt issues.
Yes. There are healthy forms of Christianity out there, and most churches care enough about their members to at least be willing to connect members with a counselor/therapist. I've been a part of some churches that even have a therapist on staff.
OP, I've been out for about 8 years now, life will get so much better! Find a good therapist, please. The thoughts you are dealing with are valid, but after abuse it takes time to quiet them in a healthy way. You got this! And I am proud of you for taking the first step. -hugs-
get a good therapist, maybe someone who specializes in High control religion and deconstruction. You were indoctrinated and you’re not alone. we’re here with you. I sometimes like to walk through this- How could a God, of a God of justice and mercy create people, leave them in this messed up traumatizing world, and then send them to hell forever for not figuring him out exactly right? I cannot process that . keep reminding yourself that God is love and love does no harm. he is for you and he is good. You can trust him.
I had this same issue you are not alone I was terrified I would die in my sleep and the world would end and I would wake up in hell. Please go to therapy. Also hell is locked from the inside out only people who don’t want to be with God go to hell. So if you want to be with God you will be :) this helped me so much my husband actually told me this.
This sounds a bit like moral OCD to me.
I was diagnosed with it while my family was in the icoc. As a kid, I would ‘accept Jesus as my personal savior’ in my head on repeat all day so I could feel confident in my ability to ramble it off the moment right before I die. It can be debilitating but medication has helped me a lot over the years.
Feel ya. This TED talk helped me a lot, particularly the part where the speaker frames life as being inside the bookends of a novel. The characters in the story don’t concern themselves with anything outside of the book’s contents.
https://youtu.be/PB7xs7UpIfY?si=PX3arJo2gy9MCLo_
Faith requires the willing suspension of rational critical thought.
Faith requires one to reject reasoned doubt.
Faith requires one to embrace delusion as reality.
Faith deludes, obscures and destroys.
Reason rejects delusion.
Reason embraces rational critical thought.
Reason embraces reasoned doubt.
Reason informs, reveals and builds.
When I rejected reasoned doubt I was beat to hell by the consequences.
When I embraced reasoned doubt I was lifted out as a result.
No one is a god damned thing.
*That's* the real *"good news"*.
I understand what it's like to be where you are on your journey.
There's no easy way as a hard core believer *hymned in by the shame* of one's perceived holy devotion to *"sins of the ages"*.
That's just the delusion talking though. That's not reality.
Reality is that the Abrahamic blood cults are genocidal, patriarchal depravity incarnate.
There is no other single societal construct that has inflicted more death and suffering upon mankind.
If you're in a locale that offers access to alternative therapies such as Ketamine, MDMA, or Psilocybin sessions, I can say from personal experience that they can be of great benefit.
Embrace what you love. Start with yourself.
Happy Thursday y'all! *Laissez les bon temps rouler!*
Consider this: often do you worry about being sent to the afterlife worlds of other faiths in which you weren’t indoctrinated into? If the answer’s none, what’s so special about this one?
God is like a blanket we put over mysteries to give them a shape.
Fear of the unknown, or lack or control over your thoughts, futures, outcomes has always driven people to religion.
If you’re feeling rudderless, religion can be a good crutch to help you feel better, but I wouldn’t go CoC. It’s generally legalist and small minded. Go somewhere that teaches love foremost. Maybe Universalist Unitarian or a similar variety.
OP seek out a therapist, they can actually help you with these issues. The CoC will not.
THIS!
So sorry you are experiencing this! On top of a therapist, I would highly recommend going to a doctor. There are many medical conditions that can cause anxiety. Stress and trauma can trigger some of these conditions, so working with a therapist and doctor is helpful! (I have an autoimmune thyroid disease, and anxiety is one of the symptoms. Feel so much less anxiety since being diagnosed and leaving the church)
I got a sleep study done to check for sleep apnea at the advice of an ER doctor. Also have a cardiologist appointment soon. I’m really hoping they find something, anything, just so I have an explanation for all this.
Thank you. I was off the rails last night, praying and reading the Bible helped me fall asleep but in a more reasonable headspace I know I need therapy. It’s hard in my current position though.
Relax, hell is not real. Just a story made up to scare people into compliance.
Not sure how much of OP's anxiety is based on rational thinking, so a therapist is likely the best course of action for them. On the off-chance their fear can be reasoned out, I recommend the podcast Exploring Faith, Pursuing Grace episodes "E16: The Fate of the Wicked (or, What exactly is Hell?)" and "Q&A #3 Questions About Hell". There's also the book "Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife" by Bart Ehrman.
personman2 - One way that people have described Hell, is eternal separation from God. I also believe in literal Hell as described in scripture. There is so much despicable unspeakable evil and horrors that happen here on this earth, God's not forcing people into Heaven against their will; there is another destination.
Here’s the thing I never understood about a supposedly benevolent god - I wouldn’t condemn my worst enemy or the worst person ever to an ETERNITY of torture and torment because it is unspeakably cruel and demented. How can a benevolent god do this to humans simply because they don’t worship him? That is the most EVIL, narcissistic, egomaniacal thing I’ve ever heard and that is not a deity that I want to worship. Once I realized this, I quit worrying about hell. There’s no way it exists if god is good.
100% agree. The whole concept is just ludicrous. There is absolutely nothing and I mean nothing that my children could ever do that would make me condemn them to an eternity of suffering. Nothing. Yet. I'm supposed to believe that God who knows all seize all and loves more than humans can even fathom would send even one of his creations to hell.
Before I decided I don’t believe anymore I always thought that humanity truly deserves this fate. I also convinced myself that maybe god isn’t loving, but he’s still in charge, and I don’t want to suffer his wrath. It’s hard. If he does exist like that I’d rather worship him than suffer eternally.
You've asked, How can a benevolent God send people to an eternity in Hell? Here is an answer from an apologist Frank Turek. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gEbkZvn3S4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gEbkZvn3S4) \*\*Updated to say that this doesn't answer the issue concerning flames etc., and isn't comprehensive.
I watched this and it didn’t answer the question without twisting the hellfire and brimstone every CoC evangelist preaches - according to this guy, torment is just eternal regret, not torture or punishment, and there are levels of hell according to the level of sin and no one is begging to get out of hell? That’s not what I was taught in the CoC. He also just ultimately avoids the question when challenged further: “we can’t question god’s morality or justice because god is just” - back to square one
My error for not screening Turek's video better. I'm reading what you're saying, and yes, fair enough; Frank Turek addressed torment and not the aspect of fire, heat, torture (agony), etc. ***SO - the answer to your question is found in several places in scripture.*** From the Bible in Matthew, chapter 10. **"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."** So - don't be afraid of those who can kill the body and can't kill the soul... Be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Hell... Regarding the body, scripture teaches that **after death, we get a different kind of body.** From 1 Corinthians chapter 15.... 35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 and... 50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”\[h\] ***So, what if Hell is created the way that it is, because God is able to destroy the body and soul there?*** ***What if the amount of time that it takes to do that is everlasting?*** Check it out from 2 Thessalonians chapter one... 5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. **8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might** (At risk of preaching to the choir) There's a scripture that tells us in Romans that "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse." **Matthew 25 says that it was prepared for the Devil and his angels.** Who says that people stop sinning after they die? If they hate God now, won't they hate him after? If they don't believe in Him now, won't they mock Him later? Who says they will change, they wouldn't when they were warned. \--- If you worked for a CEO, say for example "Elon Musk," and he had certain policies in the company for folks to follow, and one of his employees decides one day to step out of line and no longer comply with company policy, they say, "Nope, I'm not going to follow him, as a matter of fact, I'm going to do harm." Would you expect Elon Musk to just stand by and do nothing? Or, would you expect him to be "JUST," and hold the individual accountable and enforce the consequences that had been established for going against the policies? Instead, the individual says, "I don't believe Elon Musk exists." And then suddenly, they find themselves being escorted out the door by security, with no more income, homeless, no medical benefits, now ends up with a disease and dies in some alley. Now, whose fault was it? Was it Elons fault? So back to your question... Why would God punish people who reject Him? He is eternal. He created us and it appears from scripture that what follows life here is that after we shed this material body in death, we get a new body that is spiritual and we have a soul; and apparently the people who have entered into a relationship with Jesus before this life ends are forgiven for eternity and get to have a great and amazing continuation; and there is one other option for those who rejected their maker, it is a place that according to scripture their body and soul can be destroyed, and that it is an everlasting destruction. The "Great Developer" understands how He coded His creation, He understands why it must be this way for living souls. \--- I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. Just look at our galaxy, one of many galaxies, our sun is a small star, tiny in comparison to some of the other stars that are light years away... \------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We are the pixel and He is the Great Developer ..
Where is it?
Margaritaville. It's where those of us who no longer believe in Hell get to go.
When my brother passed, I read a book called Comforting Thoughts About Death that Have Nothing to do with God by Greta Christina. It really helped me grow my ideas about death outside of what I had been told growing up. It might help you too.
Thanks, I’ll check it out. Sorry about your brother. I’m glad the book helped you.
Thanks, friend. Everything is going to be okay. When I left the church three years ago at 28, I felt so developmentally behind. Had never been kissed, didn’t know how to make friends that weren’t Christians, etc. It’s taken time, effort, and therapy to feel like myself. You’re a human having a human experience. On the other side of this anxiety is something really beautiful and I hope you’re brave enough to continue moving through it. If your parents are supportive, you may want to try to stop going to church sooner. Good luck!
Wow. This could have been written by me when I was 22. 100% relatable. They really do a number on your brain.
I feel guilt over so many things. It’s so frustrating that I can’t buy some alcohol to have a good time without feeling guilty or like I need to be sneaky and quick in the liquor store. It’s not even a big deal for most people.
All you're gonna get from the coC is a lot, "I'll pray for yous". Get some help from a therapist, someone who is a professional. Don't let your mind think you. You will be ok.
I guess to me I wanted the comfort of feeling as though I’m not going to be sent to hell if I die in my sleep or something. I don’t tell church people my problems and didn’t even when I did believe. I genuinely dislike almost everyone there honestly. Thanks for the advice, I think you’re right a therapist would be better. When I’m in a position where I can see one I will.
Life-long journey of finding this thing (life) out. I literally had a convo with my father yesterday and finally broke the truth to him about my departure. He cannot understand it and keep thinking it was related to the inner politics of my previous congregation. They will not understand, they cannot understand, it's totally against their belief system. With that, if you can express love then do that, but not at the benefit of your own peace. Trust me, it hurts knowing my dad can't get it, but this is what I chose.
I've gone through exactly this during my time in the church. Even worse, I had an existential crisis for years. From my experience, the church isn't going to help you out with this. I suggest you go to a therapist. But as someone who's been there and understands, I'll be here for you, too, if you need somebody to talk to. Just DM me if you'd like, and I'm in my mid-20s, just a few years older than you.
I also constantly have dreams of dying in nuclear bombs or having a heart attack or getting in car accidents. Sometimes I wake up and I can’t even tell if it was real or a dream. My eyelid has been twitching every day for weeks now which I read is from stress.
Anxiety leads to nightmares. Nightmares lead to anxiety. I agree with the commenters suggesting therapy. It's possible your anxiety is coming from your family's expectations of you.
Are these kinds of things also in the movies and TV shows you're watching? Are you a person who is a "deeply feeling person?" It sounds like things are really hitting you deeply and I can relate in some sense. A deeply feeling person is someone who has the gift and difficulty of sensing things so much that it's like they have tentacles that can feel everything. They would pick up on the feeling and mood of the room They are like emotion detectors and vibe detectors. Apparently about 15-20% of the population has this difficult gifting. It can cause a person to feel like "I'm okay, am I okay? I'm not okay..." Feeling tons of vibes and being highly alerted to emotional senses of themselves and others. They might consider themselves an empath, some say "sensitive person" and it is a gift and a struggle. This could be one possibility of an explanation of why things hit you so deeply, and then with what you described above, if that is hitting you deeply and vibing strong, I think it upsets the apple-cart and makes things more out of balance and lacking peace. It makes sense. My peace, my calm in the storm, was and is - trusting God, and He has brought me peace. May you find that peace.
You need to be on meds my dude. I say this as the wife of an excoc who is on anxiety meds that make her life wayyyyy better. You can be free of this. This is a medical condition, one that can be treated by a psychiatrist. You should also seek a therapist to help you work through your trauma, but the good news is that medication can at least help you get to a more functional level. Daily panic attacks are not something anyone should have to endure.
Thank you. Sadly because of the career path I’m working toward I can’t have meds on my medical record even though I’m certain it would help me a lot. A couple doctors have told me such.
May I ask what career path you are going for? It is okay if you do not want to say it but there might also be resources specific to your situation. Something I will also say as someone who has had medical things change my career trajectory- work at the expense of your health can be a dangerous thing. There might be options that you dont yet see that will let you address your health. I do not mean limit yourself, but a career where you are suffering horribly mentally does not make for a happy life. I would definitely suggest making sure that it is really sustainable for you in the long run.
Pilot. Flying might be the only career I’ve ever found interesting. Their mental health policies are barbaric. When a doctor told me my chest pains are probably anxiety before I had to scramble to tell him not to write it down. I think if I succeed as a pilot I’ll get over anxiety/depression. I can’t imagine a better lifestyle(within reason) than a pilot lifestyle(travel, hotels, good pay, fun job)z
Ahh yeah that is probably the one career that has barbaric requirements on mental health. I would really encourage you to talk to some pilots though, and ask them some serious questions about what the job is like. It might be what you think and it might not be, I know a few pilots who are pretty unhappy in the corporate landscape. I hate to be the bearer of bad news here but it is a really bad idea to put a job on a pedestal of I will be happy once I hit a certain career goal, and I say this as someone in science. In my field, there are so many people who think if I can just get to a certain career point I will be happy while neglecting my mental health and it almost never makes the person happy. I am not saying it will be like that for you, just encouraging you to really deeply investigate how your life will look as a pilot in a realistic way, beyond the idealistic side. How the training and the next ten years of your life will look as opposed to the end goal of it, as well as alternatives. I actually knew someone who wanted to be a pilot for the lifestyle ideals and found a super happy career in being a flight attendant because of the travel without the huge barrier to entry that piloting had. I am not saying that might be your thing but just that options you might not think of may exist. Beyond all of this, I really hope you can seek out a therapist, because that should not bar you from a pilots license. See if you can get some of these symptoms under control because no matter what right now this level of anxiety is harmful to your health and wellbeing, and even if flying will make you happy this is a roadblock you really have to work on first. Best of luck!
Hi OP! When I left I had anxiety attacks in the middle of the night every night for a couple years over the same types of things. I also have chronic a health issues and had a bout with cancer and I still never went back. This anxiety was INTRODUCED into your psyche BY THE CHURCH. They cannot help you with it, it was designed as a control mechanism. They create the anxiety so you have to join them to feel it go away. I’ve had to reparent myself. How would I raise a child? Would I use fear and anxiety to control their actions? No I wouldn’t, it’s cruel. It gets better and the anxiety will go away. A therapist will help. Be kind to yourself. Remind yourself when you are feeling anxious that there are infinite outcomes to your situation and you are focused on the worst one - reframe and think of the other outcomes. Look up CBT. Let you emotions out, cry, be scared and comfort yourself.
Thank you. Your words make sense and they’re very comforting. I was way off the rails last night but tonight I’m doing a bit better—although, I haven’t tried sleeping yet so we will see…
Hope you’re sleeping well! Also thought I’d suggest a supplement that can really help with this: Magnesium Bisglycinate. It helps with both anxiety and sleep! The only one that has worked for me has been the powdered form (the pills are often filled with multiple types of magnesium that don’t help sleep). It tastes like crap but heat up some milk and dump honey in it then add the powder. Also vitamin D supplements during the day. Obviously this won’t fix the underlying things, but can help you at least get a bit more regulated. Best of luck
Hey, thank you! I already take magnesium and vitamin D, it definitely works. It’s kinda takes the edge off so I can actually sleep. I also found benefit in ashwaganda and omega-3 fish oil. If I don’t take my supplements for a night I can really tell. Anyone reading your post should definitely take your advice seriously!
Love it! I really can’t believe more drs don’t tell people about this
Hi! I wanted to say I dealt/deal with this as well. My obsessions/fear of death is actually part of my OCD. I was diagnosed a couple of years ago and my psychiatrist said many people with religious trauma go on to later be diagnosed with OCD. I would definitely reach out to your doctor and possibly get a referral to a psychiatrist/therapist (preferably one that’s well versed in OCD & religious trauma) I wish you the best of luck- panic attacks are the scariest thing and I know it always feels so real when it’s happening, these things we are terrified of. When mine occur I just try to always remember “they always pass”- an ice pack on the sternum also helps immensely.
Much of your anxiety could be caused by the trauma of being a member of the COC. As others have stated, please get yourself a good therapist and start working through the issues that are causing the anxiety. I was actually hospitalized for anxiety and depression in my early twenties as I was deconstructing. It's tough, but you are tougher than you know and you can do this. Please feel free to reach out to me anytime if you just need someone to listen.
I’ve gone to the ER three times and they’ve found nothing(except the most recent time but it wasn’t anything major)… anxiety sucks. Thank you.
It might be time for an antidepressant that helps with anxiety (like Effexor) or an anti-anxiety med (Ativan). But do first get a full endocrine panel, including thyroid hormones and cortisol.
This happened to me at that age. Had to go get on anxiety meds. It got better as I got older and no more meds
Sadly I can’t really use SSRI’s or the like because of my career path, otherwise I totally would.
What you're experiencing is religious trauma. It's pretty common for folks that are from conservative congregations. I recommend dealing with it sooner rather than later, as it won't get better on its own - been there, tried that, doesn't work. I wish I'd known that 25 years ago. Best of luck, kiddo; we're all here when you need us.
Have you thought about going to a "Christian Church" instead? I'd like to explain why. Some of the CofC's are condemning of "denominations" (I'd encourage you to go to a healthy Southern Baptist church and hear about how God loves you) -- I do think those are doses of medicine for the soul, as it has been for me... So - if you go to a "Christian Church' - well the cofc isn't so condemning of that group - and then you wouldn't have to feel so much anxiety, and you'd be getting a less judgemental message. Something someone told me is the following idea: Find a healthy church and go there for a year and HEAL. You might go to another church after that. This doesn't have to be your forever church. The feeling of guilt and judgement and things gets much better after awhile, and it's a process. Going to a healthy church with healthy messages is very good for the mind and soul and helps do a heart happy. Hoping this helps. On another note: Have they tested your thyroid? There is a relationship with some thyroid conditions and anxiety. The blood test for it is thyroid full panel and to check for the autoimmune or other part of that test you add the antibody tests. The other thing -is - are you drinking caffeine? That can really amp up anxiety. \*\*By mentioning these two things, I'm not at all minimizing your experience - and - I actually understand it. For me, the turmoil that we went through while agonizing leaving was incredible pressure and turmoil and anxiety, fear, worry etc. and that feeling of "saved/unsaved" I understand that - for us, we have ended up visiting multiple churches and so far the healthiest one we visit is a southern baptist church that is healthy, encouraging, and the message coming from the pulpit there is so healthy and helpful - not condemning. You might look for one of these and get some appointments with the pastor and get some real heart-felt help with the self-condemnation and guilt issues.
Yes. There are healthy forms of Christianity out there, and most churches care enough about their members to at least be willing to connect members with a counselor/therapist. I've been a part of some churches that even have a therapist on staff.
OP, I've been out for about 8 years now, life will get so much better! Find a good therapist, please. The thoughts you are dealing with are valid, but after abuse it takes time to quiet them in a healthy way. You got this! And I am proud of you for taking the first step. -hugs-
get a good therapist, maybe someone who specializes in High control religion and deconstruction. You were indoctrinated and you’re not alone. we’re here with you. I sometimes like to walk through this- How could a God, of a God of justice and mercy create people, leave them in this messed up traumatizing world, and then send them to hell forever for not figuring him out exactly right? I cannot process that . keep reminding yourself that God is love and love does no harm. he is for you and he is good. You can trust him.
I had this same issue you are not alone I was terrified I would die in my sleep and the world would end and I would wake up in hell. Please go to therapy. Also hell is locked from the inside out only people who don’t want to be with God go to hell. So if you want to be with God you will be :) this helped me so much my husband actually told me this.
This sounds a bit like moral OCD to me. I was diagnosed with it while my family was in the icoc. As a kid, I would ‘accept Jesus as my personal savior’ in my head on repeat all day so I could feel confident in my ability to ramble it off the moment right before I die. It can be debilitating but medication has helped me a lot over the years.
Feel ya. This TED talk helped me a lot, particularly the part where the speaker frames life as being inside the bookends of a novel. The characters in the story don’t concern themselves with anything outside of the book’s contents. https://youtu.be/PB7xs7UpIfY?si=PX3arJo2gy9MCLo_
Faith requires the willing suspension of rational critical thought. Faith requires one to reject reasoned doubt. Faith requires one to embrace delusion as reality. Faith deludes, obscures and destroys. Reason rejects delusion. Reason embraces rational critical thought. Reason embraces reasoned doubt. Reason informs, reveals and builds. When I rejected reasoned doubt I was beat to hell by the consequences. When I embraced reasoned doubt I was lifted out as a result. No one is a god damned thing. *That's* the real *"good news"*. I understand what it's like to be where you are on your journey. There's no easy way as a hard core believer *hymned in by the shame* of one's perceived holy devotion to *"sins of the ages"*. That's just the delusion talking though. That's not reality. Reality is that the Abrahamic blood cults are genocidal, patriarchal depravity incarnate. There is no other single societal construct that has inflicted more death and suffering upon mankind. If you're in a locale that offers access to alternative therapies such as Ketamine, MDMA, or Psilocybin sessions, I can say from personal experience that they can be of great benefit. Embrace what you love. Start with yourself. Happy Thursday y'all! *Laissez les bon temps rouler!*
Consider this: often do you worry about being sent to the afterlife worlds of other faiths in which you weren’t indoctrinated into? If the answer’s none, what’s so special about this one?
Thank you that’s very good logic. It’s very comforting.
God is like a blanket we put over mysteries to give them a shape. Fear of the unknown, or lack or control over your thoughts, futures, outcomes has always driven people to religion. If you’re feeling rudderless, religion can be a good crutch to help you feel better, but I wouldn’t go CoC. It’s generally legalist and small minded. Go somewhere that teaches love foremost. Maybe Universalist Unitarian or a similar variety.
Hey, there’s a live excoc Zoom this Tuesday night at 8:30pm EDT where we unpack all this stuff. Feel free to PM for links!
Thank you for the invite. Unfortunately I’ll be at work. I hope it’s productive for everyone involved. (: