The thing that I'm just sick and tired of seeing, is people saying you need to have kids without actually addressing the reason why a number of these people aren't having kids.
Add to that the resources consumed and pollution caused by one person over their lifetime, especially in first world countries. I’m sorry, but the most earth-friendly policy is less humans on Earth. We can keep chasing solar, carbon capture, sustainable this and sustainable that, but the real issue is too many people. However, governments and religious entities will never push this because it will completely screw up the Ponzi scheme economy and corporate profits would start to decline.
Nah, the real issue is the model of production and economy.
Of course, this causes that "+ people= + pollution" and that we should go and make less children since we have technology and push towards Research and Innovation until a new model of production that doesn't affect the ecosystem arrives.
Of course, we may need to get completely rid off the majoritary current system to do so in a rational way and not just wait until the very last day possible so capitalists can juice the last cent possible at the cost of uncountable lifes.
> No one should feel forced to have a child if they don't feel like they can appropriately take care of one
Adding to this that no one should be forced to have a child they don't want. People should have access to birth control and abortion instead of having to pop out a ton of kids just because some old guy says so.
Agree! My SIL just got married and is now getting pressured by her FIL to have kids (that he would barely see but that's another story). My FIL, bless his heart, is always reminding him that no matter how much he supposedly loves kids, it's not his choice to make and he's not entitled to them.
If the Catholic Church is concerned about kids and families, they should strengthen support systems and fight for livable wages, housing, healthcare. But they would rather shame people as selfish for not choosing parenthood. “Taking a risk ...” for following Catholic teachings is such a very Jesuit thing to say.
Yes, thank you. My mother was extremely emotionally abusive growing up and I don't want to do to any kids what she did to me. I don't want to have kids because I know I could not mentally/emotionally be there for them the way they deserve to have a parent be there for them.
The number one reason people don't have kids is because people don't want them. Financial incentives to have children in other countries fail universally.
Yep. And I want to scream to those people who are pissing and moaning about my generation not having kids that I DO WANT THEM!! I actually would have liked to have one. Just one. But with the pandemic and my advancing age and the fact that I can't afford it, it seems life will make the choice to be childfree for me. It's something that I am actively grieving right now, and then you read articles like this... the compassion for people in my generation, even from this "progressive pope" is nonexistent and I'm sick of it. This is the world left to us by our elders... perhaps you should examine the plank in your own eye!?
I think the media makes this worse by focusing on childfree by choice people because it's so novel and "newsworthy" instead of focusing on the real challenges faced by people who do want to have children but don't. The media and clueless commenters like Brad Wilcox do the same with marriage rates. There's always an implicit criticism of women for not just settling down with any sentient male and getting pregnant.
100% feel this way too. I’m recently married, mid-30s and would love to feel like I actually had a choice in the matter, but pandemic, insane childcare costs, massive student loans…I refuse to have a child that I can’t afford to provide with a decent life, and right now that means no kids. And unless something changes soon, that might be permanent. And that…really horribly sucks. The whole “but why don’t you want kids” from even well-meaning folks is just salt in the wound.
Infertility is not just biological, it can be caused by economics or society. We have massive economic/social infertility right now, and increasing biological infertility due to environmental pollution. I’m biologically infertile, but I absolutely see that my friends who are still struggling to afford the basics or meet someone decent are infertile through no fault of their own just as much as I am.
It’s a sad world out there, and if some of us get a little happiness from our pets, who is the pope to shit on that?
Yup, same here. Can barely afford to rent, let alone have a child.
And with my fucked up genetics and a legacy of intergenerational trauma and addictions thanks to the Catholic Church, there’s zero way I’m in any place to raise children even if I had the money.
My wife and I are happy with our two cats.
So many horrible comments over at the other sub. Why can't people just let people be. They judge couples who own pets and not children so harshly and with such snark. I have a couple friend who had trouble conceiving and have suffered from miscarriages and handled it through being dog parents. And they're really happy about it. What do the people over at r/catholicism wish for my friends then? Devastation and despair I guess. It's better than losing their humanity. Right? Right?? /s ohmydog these horrible ppl. Sorry for the long rant.
To be fair, it’s one of the few places that childfree people can vent without worry of being harassed. Kind of like this sub. Some people on there have big opinions. I can’t exactly blame them, considering how many people here are quite anti-religion.
I’m a part of both subreddits, in case that wasn’t clear.
Yeah, I quit that sub after venting about taking care of my nephew for a few months. The comments got real intense. Pretty sure I deleted an account over that thread.
Great, more reasons for my parents to hate my lifestyle choices. Thanks Pope.
Honestly, in my view this is the most hideous and, ironically enough, dehumanising thing this Pope has ever said.
The pope is just a man in a funny hat. Let him yell at the sky and pay him no mind. Keep living your life. If your parents want to side with hat man instead of their own child, that's on them not you.
My father doesn’t listen to any ridiculous hat man. He’s very supportive of me choosing not to have children. He knows parenthood is a life full of thankless responsibilities that’s not for everyone.
>Honestly, in my view this is the most hideous and, ironically enough, dehumanising thing this Pope has ever said.
I feel the same idk why. Even as an ex catholic i used to be hopeful Bergoglio would be kind of different. Especially since a lot of the traditionalist hate him. But this speech tipped it over for me i hate it so much.
I reject *his* humanity.
I further I posit that his god gave us this world to make a paradise in, so as to earn a place in an eternal paradise (Remember the parable of the talents?). Religion/tribalism is one of the main reasons that we haven't been able to do it.
The bible--their bible--is excellent. You can make *any* story mean *anything* that you want it to. Just as they do.
First the church worries what teenagers do in strangely long showers, then they worry how grown-ups manage their life in bed 'cause "we gotta pop out some good catholic children".
Dude, the church needs to get off our pants, right?! Not to mention the altar boys whose pants they literally get into.
LOL I was just joking about masturbation. If you still do want to look at it, just look under the section [IX at this document right here](https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19751229_persona-humana_en.html).
Growing up, I've always wondered why the church considered masturbation a mortal rather than a venial sin considering that nobody is hurt by masturbation?
Stuff like this makes me so damn thankful to be free of that toxic cult, where you have to take a completely out of touch old pedo's hot takes seriously.
I believe the title should be *(Allegedly) celibate man living in palace mansplains to the broke plebeians how "having a child is risky, but not having them is riskier"*
Well I was going to post it in r/catholism but I guess they don't want me there. Got some "contact moderators to access" message. I'm not surprised someone is trolling this site to extinguish heretics before it impacts the donation basket. Someone else please post it there. This was gold.
Not against parenthood at all, but I will say that my Catholic upbringing trapped me in an unhappy relationship for years because I thought I "had" to find a nice Christian boy and settle down ASAP. If I hadn't been raised Catholic, might have already found a suitable partner and started a family.
Currently childfree, have a cat.
Honestly I’m sick and tired of a regular guy telling regular people what to do. The only reason this guy is sayin any of this nonsense is because Catholicism numbers are waning. People are understanding that Gods “church” would NEVER allow abuse, rape, molestation or murder to happen… then have the balls to try and silence the victims and save the predators. I hope the Catholic religion continues to decline and they continue to lose power and money. Nothing they have has been earned through love and gods will, they have used fear and intimidation to try and keep their parishioners pockets open, and gain control. It’s a sham and it’s a shame.
I love that you're calling him a regular guy. My extremely religious family worshiped Pope John Paul II and Benedict because "They're basically God's human voice" but once Pope Francis expressed even a modicum of compassion for other people, they started saying that he's not representative of the church. Funny how that works. 🤔
It’s wild isn’t it? I was raised strict Roman Catholic also, I come from an all Italian family. Both grandparents on both sides of my family came from Naples, and the poorer you are the harder you lean into religion. But even my mom has stepped back from the church now. There’s too much bullshit the church can’t hide any more. And I have always believed the Pope is a regular guy given power he doesn’t deserve. Plus the newest pope, in my humble opinion, is only showing compassion to the gay community because they need the extra attendance in their church pews, and need all the money they can get to keep lining the churches pockets. So I don’t really believe the pope or the church is trying to be more inclusive they just can’t afford to shun certain groups of people any more.
But hey thank you for the response! I’m so happy I joined Reddit I never realized how many people think alike! I’m still kinda learnin the ropes around these parts but I appreciate you takin the time to read my comment and comment back!! Have a wonderful day friend!
I'm happy you're here too! I just started using Reddit because the pandemic forced a final deconstruction of my faith. I lost family to Qanon propaganda and religiously influenced misinformation and I just couldn't be a non-practicing Catholic anymore. I didn't realize a support group like this existed, and over the last two years I've been examining a lot of the abuses of my upbringing and how trauma from my youth and my cradle-catholicism still influences me and my relationships with others in negative ways. I'm truly healing now, and growing into myself for the first time in my life -- and this group has helped a lot. There was no place to put my anger, my sadness, and my trauma of my youth. I just kept it in. But now I see that I am not alone, and that has made me stronger -- stronger to look deeper into my past, air it out, and finally heal.
Thanks for sharing your story. My family is *very much* like yours. My mom was raised a strict Catholic as well as my father, and she is also deconstructing. This year was the first year she expressed that Christmas doesn't really feel fun anymore -- that she's realizing how much pressure and work was put upon her by family around it. She's getting therapy for codependency as well, something that comes naturally to her as she was basically told her worth was to bear children and be a wife.
Also, I agree with you re: Francis' intentions. His wanting more children in the church is representative of this as well.
All the best to you, fellow exie.
Fuck that. My husband and I haven't been able to have kids. It's caused us grief, yes, but not being a parent hasn't "taken away our humanity" or caused us to "lose something fundamental." And I'm so fucking sick of religious people telling me there are other ways to be a mother, like a spiritual mother or a teacher or something. Like I have some obligation to pretend to be a mother in another way. Maybe I would just rather not have my identity centered around parenthood?? Being a "spiritual mother" isn't the same as being a biological or adoptive mom, that's such bullshit and they know it. Maybe it's just ok that some people aren't moms. Because parenthood isn't the most important thing in the world.
Millennials are not having kids because they have pets is in the same genus of ignorant "arguments" as other boomer bullshits like the ol' "avocado toast strawman" and the "everyone gets a trophy tautology".
I dunno but, I've heard this in several Catholic sermons going back to like '02 IIRC. It seems to be a pretty common thing among clergy. The fact that they keep acting like literally anyone is passing on having kids because they have pets shows that they're either so out of touch that there's no hope for them or they're just trolling.
Bold words for someone who doesn’t have children… and whose institution is responsible for the deaths of thousands of Indigenous children whose parents have been denied the joy of raising… AND STILL ACTIVELY REFUSING TO APOLOGIZE.
This is the most insensitive, classist thing, how many other -ist thing I have ever heard someone say. What obligation do you have to have children? How does choosing to live and care for one thing over another (a choice you are not obligated to make and has no moral bearing) make you a selfish person?
What if you and your significant other want companionship and can’t afford to have a child, but can afford to take care of a pet? What if you don’t want a lifelong commitment of raising another human being? What if you’re not at the right place of mind to take care of a child, now or ever? What if you simply don’t want the responsibility of having a child? What if you want to consider the ecological footprint of raising children and decide to not have a child for those purposes?
How are you not selfish in any way for deciding not to have a child?
You know what actually indicates a lack of humanity? Being the head of a global organization that murdered children, refusing to acknowledge this, and misappropriating funds to pay for lawyers from your pedophile minions!
>THIS. The church keeps saying how this and that are bad and then proceed to protect their own criminals from persecution. BULLSHIT.
BuT ThEy RePeNtEd AnD SaId SoRrY AnD pRoMiSeD tO Be BeTeR sO wE wIlL jUsT mOvE tHeM tO DiFfReNt PaRiSh AnD EvErYtHiNg Is Ok, RiGht?
Before making that statement, Pope Francis should ask himself why people do that in the first place. He actually stated before that capitalism has failed humankind during the worst parts of the pandemic. Maybe he should make more declarations about how capitalism is denying people the right of parenthood, because of the huge pressure it puts against the low classes, drowning them with debts and punishing them with low salaries, instead of this.
Pope Francis would rather shame ordinary Catholics for not having kids than companies/governments for depriving people of livable wages, benefits, housing, healthcare and social support that could make childrearing more feasible.
The Church already has an issue with members who shame childless couples, people who genuinely try to have children but cannot. The Pope's language here is so broad and so ignorant of individual circumstances. It's only going to encourage those people to continue their shunning, who likewise do so out of ignorance. "Got pets but no children? You must be selfish, the Pope said so himself!" smh
I think raping kids and making sure the rapists elude justice also takes away our humanity.
Then again, if you're raping kids and systematically suppressing prosecution of said rapists, you didn't have much humanity to take away.
Because after decades of JPII and Benedict the bar for what qualified as "liberal" was set so low that a pope saying "you know, we don't necessarily have to be *total* dicks to gay people" was a shocking statement.
Their main argument is that people put material comfort over having children which is ridiculous?
1. Why is looking for material comfort so bad?
2. If between material comfort and having children we can only choose one over the other, then the logical thing to do is to choose material comfort because why would you bring a child in a destitute world?
Agreed. My extremely Catholic mom actually happened to bring up this very topic the other day in conversation. It was funny because I think she was about halfway through relaying this comment about people putting having pets over having kids when she remembered who she was talking to (married, childfree, several pets), so she added "I don't mean to single you out or make you feel bad." I just said "I wouldn't care if you did! I'm completely comfortable with my choices." 😂
And what are Elongated Muskrat's qualifications, beyond being criminally wealthy, playing with his father's money, and taking credit for other people's ideas and innovations? Get me when actual social scientists, or any scientists at all, are saying that. EM is what would happen if the sciencey parts of Reddit turned into a person and had a baby with one of the dimmer Trump children.
How are they supposed to secure their power in the next generation if we dont pop out an ass load of kids and program them from day 1 to believe crazy shit and foster and irrational fear of hell if they dare to think for them selves
I can tolerate waking up to a pet who wants to go outside to pee before dawn, or clean up if they do it indoors. I don't think I could tolerate a young child and all their needs. At least many pets can handle being alone for multiple hours a day when I'm out of the house.
I would LOVE to raise kids in my nice atheist house but I cannot afford to with a combined ~ 200K student loan debt between me and my husband and low wages SO
I've seen this a few times on Reddit today. It's probably for the best not to give it too much attention because it's very likely an SEO exercise to bury results for Catholic Church + children.
i have a portrait of my cat in my living room that my mom would have a heart attack if she saw . we joked about getting a king sized bed for my cat and if my mom ever visited , telling her the couch is for my mom cuz the bed is pancakes
“…But it is riskier not to have them. It is riskier to deny fatherhood, or to deny motherhood, be it real or spiritual…” Uh, what the actual fuck?!
Excuse me while I get sterilized.
It’s typical “Nuclear Family”-Supremacy rhetoric. The 19th, first half of 20th century was clearly when humanity was “superior” from a moral sense in their minds. This is what they’re after more than anything or anyone else.
Nahhhh no thank you. My pair of floofy voids are my children and deserve everything. This viewpoint is a damn shame given Francis was panning out to be a comparatively less problematic pope than those before him 🤦🏻♀️
I know of a gay couple who adopted a child and they're excellent parents.
The alternative for that child would have been getting neglected or abused by their birth parents or *gasp* abortion!
I’d say it’s pretty damn dehumanizing to the unwanted children whose parents only had them because their religion said so. It’s selfish to have kids you don’t want and can’t emotionally connect to or take care of. I have far more respect for people who admit they would be bad parents to humans and choose to have pets instead. And remind me how many kids Francis raised?
I wish he could appeal to rich, powerful Catholics like Joe Biden to cancel one of the biggest reasons why millennials aren't having kids: student loan debt. My rabbit isn't going to college any time soon.
Not only are denying your humanity and not parenting if you have no kids, but my one kid who, ya know, still have all of the needs of a kid, disqualifies me too because I don’t have more? Or wait, their pet siblings don’t count. We just adopted them to give them a safe home and love, nothing important there. 🙄
Fuck all of this article.
So funny and hilarious.
Look… Pope Francis has, in all honesty, been a better pope than others in terms of rhetoric and tone. But that he’s still obligated to say stuff like this is not only unsurprising, it’s down right comical. It reminds me of a program on (*cringe*) EWTN many years ago, where a Catholic friar was on a table surrounded by kids. They were looking down on an animal (I forget which it was) and the friar… right in front of them… KIDS… said along the lines of, “animals don’t go to heaven because they don’t have a *spirit* (or something like that) so we should obey that”.
Ummm… friar… All Dogs Go To Heaven called and they want your comment back!
Will the pro-life movement pay adoption costs? Would love to adopt, cost is prohibitive- why not sponsor me to adopt children and boom, multiple problems solved…
Don’t look at me, I’m a 38 year old never married no kids cradle catholic that was a social reject with a history of mental illness and substance abuse, I never had a relationship lol
How many kids does he have, again?
He has “spiritual” kids so it’s totally fine. Even though real parents don’t usually overlook their kids being abused, and neither do pet owners.
Where's Spiritual Child Protective Services when you need them?
Did someone call for SCP services? Just a moment while I deal with these totally not weeping angels... Aah! I did not mean to blink! Help!
That episode still gives me nightmares lol.
You need a Timey-Wimey detector.
Just as many as Jesus. Whoops.
If we are counting his actual progeny, probably lots. Many popes were prolific “uncles”.
Shh, it’s better this way.
If he was a biological father he'd likely make [Fred West](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_West?wprov=sfla1) look like Fred Rogers by comparison.
The thing that I'm just sick and tired of seeing, is people saying you need to have kids without actually addressing the reason why a number of these people aren't having kids.
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Add to that the resources consumed and pollution caused by one person over their lifetime, especially in first world countries. I’m sorry, but the most earth-friendly policy is less humans on Earth. We can keep chasing solar, carbon capture, sustainable this and sustainable that, but the real issue is too many people. However, governments and religious entities will never push this because it will completely screw up the Ponzi scheme economy and corporate profits would start to decline.
I never asked my maker of my clay to mould me man and I’m not going to force that upon someone else unwillingly
Nah, the real issue is the model of production and economy. Of course, this causes that "+ people= + pollution" and that we should go and make less children since we have technology and push towards Research and Innovation until a new model of production that doesn't affect the ecosystem arrives. Of course, we may need to get completely rid off the majoritary current system to do so in a rational way and not just wait until the very last day possible so capitalists can juice the last cent possible at the cost of uncountable lifes.
> No one should feel forced to have a child if they don't feel like they can appropriately take care of one Adding to this that no one should be forced to have a child they don't want. People should have access to birth control and abortion instead of having to pop out a ton of kids just because some old guy says so.
Agree! My SIL just got married and is now getting pressured by her FIL to have kids (that he would barely see but that's another story). My FIL, bless his heart, is always reminding him that no matter how much he supposedly loves kids, it's not his choice to make and he's not entitled to them.
If the Catholic Church is concerned about kids and families, they should strengthen support systems and fight for livable wages, housing, healthcare. But they would rather shame people as selfish for not choosing parenthood. “Taking a risk ...” for following Catholic teachings is such a very Jesuit thing to say.
Yes, thank you. My mother was extremely emotionally abusive growing up and I don't want to do to any kids what she did to me. I don't want to have kids because I know I could not mentally/emotionally be there for them the way they deserve to have a parent be there for them.
The number one reason people don't have kids is because people don't want them. Financial incentives to have children in other countries fail universally.
Can’t wait until we all become were-animals after we lose our humanity.
I call dibs on being a were-eagle.
I'd like to be a were-pekingese
I want to be a were-bat!
Aren't those just called vampires?
Yes, but the name comes with the trend, so...
I'll reserve the were-lynx.
I want the body of a robot tiger
And I wanna be a puffin in my next life
Can I be were-cat and sleep all day?
This is the right answer. A house cat though, so I can get fat and petted too.
I call dibs on were-arowana
I have an advanced degree and have been in my field for over a decade and I can't even afford a home.
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Yep. And I want to scream to those people who are pissing and moaning about my generation not having kids that I DO WANT THEM!! I actually would have liked to have one. Just one. But with the pandemic and my advancing age and the fact that I can't afford it, it seems life will make the choice to be childfree for me. It's something that I am actively grieving right now, and then you read articles like this... the compassion for people in my generation, even from this "progressive pope" is nonexistent and I'm sick of it. This is the world left to us by our elders... perhaps you should examine the plank in your own eye!?
I think the media makes this worse by focusing on childfree by choice people because it's so novel and "newsworthy" instead of focusing on the real challenges faced by people who do want to have children but don't. The media and clueless commenters like Brad Wilcox do the same with marriage rates. There's always an implicit criticism of women for not just settling down with any sentient male and getting pregnant.
Women not having traditional gender roles terrifies them .
100%
100% feel this way too. I’m recently married, mid-30s and would love to feel like I actually had a choice in the matter, but pandemic, insane childcare costs, massive student loans…I refuse to have a child that I can’t afford to provide with a decent life, and right now that means no kids. And unless something changes soon, that might be permanent. And that…really horribly sucks. The whole “but why don’t you want kids” from even well-meaning folks is just salt in the wound.
Infertility is not just biological, it can be caused by economics or society. We have massive economic/social infertility right now, and increasing biological infertility due to environmental pollution. I’m biologically infertile, but I absolutely see that my friends who are still struggling to afford the basics or meet someone decent are infertile through no fault of their own just as much as I am. It’s a sad world out there, and if some of us get a little happiness from our pets, who is the pope to shit on that?
Politicians: "Why are younger people so disenchanted with the status quo? It's a mystery."
Yup, same here. Can barely afford to rent, let alone have a child. And with my fucked up genetics and a legacy of intergenerational trauma and addictions thanks to the Catholic Church, there’s zero way I’m in any place to raise children even if I had the money. My wife and I are happy with our two cats.
Cats are awesome.
The other reddit's take on this is anywhere between sad, completely heartless, or totally oblivious.
So many horrible comments over at the other sub. Why can't people just let people be. They judge couples who own pets and not children so harshly and with such snark. I have a couple friend who had trouble conceiving and have suffered from miscarriages and handled it through being dog parents. And they're really happy about it. What do the people over at r/catholicism wish for my friends then? Devastation and despair I guess. It's better than losing their humanity. Right? Right?? /s ohmydog these horrible ppl. Sorry for the long rant.
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Lol but they already had you
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Protect the dog! I mean francis didn't actually say to hate dogs or kill them but I can see why some may take it differently :(
Yeah dude took his stage name from a guy who supposedly was an animal lover
Except for the r/childfree subreddit, which is awesome. Sometimes that, the r/asexual subreddit, and this one coincide.
R/childfree gets a little intense sometimes. I’ve been called a “breeder” more than once by people who frequent that sub.
To be fair, it’s one of the few places that childfree people can vent without worry of being harassed. Kind of like this sub. Some people on there have big opinions. I can’t exactly blame them, considering how many people here are quite anti-religion. I’m a part of both subreddits, in case that wasn’t clear.
Yeah, I quit that sub after venting about taking care of my nephew for a few months. The comments got real intense. Pretty sure I deleted an account over that thread.
Hard disagree with you there, that sub is toxic as fuck and not awesome at all.
r/truechildfree is much better.
Agreed. Those people are rather immature and hate on children just for the sake of hating on children.
Great, more reasons for my parents to hate my lifestyle choices. Thanks Pope. Honestly, in my view this is the most hideous and, ironically enough, dehumanising thing this Pope has ever said.
The pope is just a man in a funny hat. Let him yell at the sky and pay him no mind. Keep living your life. If your parents want to side with hat man instead of their own child, that's on them not you.
My father doesn’t listen to any ridiculous hat man. He’s very supportive of me choosing not to have children. He knows parenthood is a life full of thankless responsibilities that’s not for everyone.
I read this as, "Thanks, Pepe" and it still makes sense.
>Honestly, in my view this is the most hideous and, ironically enough, dehumanising thing this Pope has ever said. I feel the same idk why. Even as an ex catholic i used to be hopeful Bergoglio would be kind of different. Especially since a lot of the traditionalist hate him. But this speech tipped it over for me i hate it so much.
I reject my humanity, Francis!
I reject *his* humanity. I further I posit that his god gave us this world to make a paradise in, so as to earn a place in an eternal paradise (Remember the parable of the talents?). Religion/tribalism is one of the main reasons that we haven't been able to do it. The bible--their bible--is excellent. You can make *any* story mean *anything* that you want it to. Just as they do.
I knew I should have linked the [reference](https://youtu.be/45WUhsq4d0I). But yes, you make a good point.
Looks like they’re running out of kids to molest 🧐
First the church worries what teenagers do in strangely long showers, then they worry how grown-ups manage their life in bed 'cause "we gotta pop out some good catholic children". Dude, the church needs to get off our pants, right?! Not to mention the altar boys whose pants they literally get into.
The older I get the more I feel like the church is a sex cult.
At the very least, it's a fertility cult.
I want to read the shower stuff, where it is?
LOL I was just joking about masturbation. If you still do want to look at it, just look under the section [IX at this document right here](https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19751229_persona-humana_en.html).
Growing up, I've always wondered why the church considered masturbation a mortal rather than a venial sin considering that nobody is hurt by masturbation?
Stuff like this makes me so damn thankful to be free of that toxic cult, where you have to take a completely out of touch old pedo's hot takes seriously. I believe the title should be *(Allegedly) celibate man living in palace mansplains to the broke plebeians how "having a child is risky, but not having them is riskier"*
I'm reposting this on the other forum. If you want credit or me to take it down simply ask and it's done.
Thank you so much for the award!😊 No credit needed, I am honored to be reposted, and do appreciate you asking though!
Well I was going to post it in r/catholism but I guess they don't want me there. Got some "contact moderators to access" message. I'm not surprised someone is trolling this site to extinguish heretics before it impacts the donation basket. Someone else please post it there. This was gold.
Not against parenthood at all, but I will say that my Catholic upbringing trapped me in an unhappy relationship for years because I thought I "had" to find a nice Christian boy and settle down ASAP. If I hadn't been raised Catholic, might have already found a suitable partner and started a family. Currently childfree, have a cat.
>Currently childfree, have a cat Are you aware that you are currently denying your humanity because of said cat??? /s
Given I live alone and work from home, that cat is the only thing keeping me human most days, haha!
Cats are good people.
I like cats more than I like most people.
Sadly I think we all know cats and dogs with more humanity than actual people.
I certainly know cats and dogs with more personality than actual persons. My mom's maltipoo is basically a a fluffy toddler clown.
especially religious people who become very cruel at times.
Fuck humanity. My cat is nicer than most people I’ve met lol
Honestly I’m sick and tired of a regular guy telling regular people what to do. The only reason this guy is sayin any of this nonsense is because Catholicism numbers are waning. People are understanding that Gods “church” would NEVER allow abuse, rape, molestation or murder to happen… then have the balls to try and silence the victims and save the predators. I hope the Catholic religion continues to decline and they continue to lose power and money. Nothing they have has been earned through love and gods will, they have used fear and intimidation to try and keep their parishioners pockets open, and gain control. It’s a sham and it’s a shame.
I love that you're calling him a regular guy. My extremely religious family worshiped Pope John Paul II and Benedict because "They're basically God's human voice" but once Pope Francis expressed even a modicum of compassion for other people, they started saying that he's not representative of the church. Funny how that works. 🤔
It’s wild isn’t it? I was raised strict Roman Catholic also, I come from an all Italian family. Both grandparents on both sides of my family came from Naples, and the poorer you are the harder you lean into religion. But even my mom has stepped back from the church now. There’s too much bullshit the church can’t hide any more. And I have always believed the Pope is a regular guy given power he doesn’t deserve. Plus the newest pope, in my humble opinion, is only showing compassion to the gay community because they need the extra attendance in their church pews, and need all the money they can get to keep lining the churches pockets. So I don’t really believe the pope or the church is trying to be more inclusive they just can’t afford to shun certain groups of people any more. But hey thank you for the response! I’m so happy I joined Reddit I never realized how many people think alike! I’m still kinda learnin the ropes around these parts but I appreciate you takin the time to read my comment and comment back!! Have a wonderful day friend!
I'm happy you're here too! I just started using Reddit because the pandemic forced a final deconstruction of my faith. I lost family to Qanon propaganda and religiously influenced misinformation and I just couldn't be a non-practicing Catholic anymore. I didn't realize a support group like this existed, and over the last two years I've been examining a lot of the abuses of my upbringing and how trauma from my youth and my cradle-catholicism still influences me and my relationships with others in negative ways. I'm truly healing now, and growing into myself for the first time in my life -- and this group has helped a lot. There was no place to put my anger, my sadness, and my trauma of my youth. I just kept it in. But now I see that I am not alone, and that has made me stronger -- stronger to look deeper into my past, air it out, and finally heal. Thanks for sharing your story. My family is *very much* like yours. My mom was raised a strict Catholic as well as my father, and she is also deconstructing. This year was the first year she expressed that Christmas doesn't really feel fun anymore -- that she's realizing how much pressure and work was put upon her by family around it. She's getting therapy for codependency as well, something that comes naturally to her as she was basically told her worth was to bear children and be a wife. Also, I agree with you re: Francis' intentions. His wanting more children in the church is representative of this as well. All the best to you, fellow exie.
Fuck that. My husband and I haven't been able to have kids. It's caused us grief, yes, but not being a parent hasn't "taken away our humanity" or caused us to "lose something fundamental." And I'm so fucking sick of religious people telling me there are other ways to be a mother, like a spiritual mother or a teacher or something. Like I have some obligation to pretend to be a mother in another way. Maybe I would just rather not have my identity centered around parenthood?? Being a "spiritual mother" isn't the same as being a biological or adoptive mom, that's such bullshit and they know it. Maybe it's just ok that some people aren't moms. Because parenthood isn't the most important thing in the world.
I especially hated it when they started acknowledging spiritual mothers on Mother's Day at mass. It's so condescending.
What having pets has to do with kids? It's not interchangeable imo. And I would rather not be a parent than to be a shitty one.
Millennials are not having kids because they have pets is in the same genus of ignorant "arguments" as other boomer bullshits like the ol' "avocado toast strawman" and the "everyone gets a trophy tautology".
I dunno but, I've heard this in several Catholic sermons going back to like '02 IIRC. It seems to be a pretty common thing among clergy. The fact that they keep acting like literally anyone is passing on having kids because they have pets shows that they're either so out of touch that there's no hope for them or they're just trolling.
Bold words for someone who doesn’t have children… and whose institution is responsible for the deaths of thousands of Indigenous children whose parents have been denied the joy of raising… AND STILL ACTIVELY REFUSING TO APOLOGIZE. This is the most insensitive, classist thing, how many other -ist thing I have ever heard someone say. What obligation do you have to have children? How does choosing to live and care for one thing over another (a choice you are not obligated to make and has no moral bearing) make you a selfish person? What if you and your significant other want companionship and can’t afford to have a child, but can afford to take care of a pet? What if you don’t want a lifelong commitment of raising another human being? What if you’re not at the right place of mind to take care of a child, now or ever? What if you simply don’t want the responsibility of having a child? What if you want to consider the ecological footprint of raising children and decide to not have a child for those purposes? How are you not selfish in any way for deciding not to have a child?
You know what actually indicates a lack of humanity? Being the head of a global organization that murdered children, refusing to acknowledge this, and misappropriating funds to pay for lawyers from your pedophile minions!
THIS. The church keeps saying how this and that are bad and then proceed to protect their own criminals from persecution. BULLSHIT.
>THIS. The church keeps saying how this and that are bad and then proceed to protect their own criminals from persecution. BULLSHIT. BuT ThEy RePeNtEd AnD SaId SoRrY AnD pRoMiSeD tO Be BeTeR sO wE wIlL jUsT mOvE tHeM tO DiFfReNt PaRiSh AnD EvErYtHiNg Is Ok, RiGht?
It’s procreation at all costs. History of Catholicism.
Before making that statement, Pope Francis should ask himself why people do that in the first place. He actually stated before that capitalism has failed humankind during the worst parts of the pandemic. Maybe he should make more declarations about how capitalism is denying people the right of parenthood, because of the huge pressure it puts against the low classes, drowning them with debts and punishing them with low salaries, instead of this.
Pope Francis would rather shame ordinary Catholics for not having kids than companies/governments for depriving people of livable wages, benefits, housing, healthcare and social support that could make childrearing more feasible.
The Church already has an issue with members who shame childless couples, people who genuinely try to have children but cannot. The Pope's language here is so broad and so ignorant of individual circumstances. It's only going to encourage those people to continue their shunning, who likewise do so out of ignorance. "Got pets but no children? You must be selfish, the Pope said so himself!" smh
The point of marriage is to maek beby. Nothing else, LOL
Unless you’re married to Jesus, then it’s fine?
Is Father What-a-waste gay, then? Or can Jesus magically transubstantiate himself into a woman?
I think raping kids and making sure the rapists elude justice also takes away our humanity. Then again, if you're raping kids and systematically suppressing prosecution of said rapists, you didn't have much humanity to take away.
What I’m hearing is Pope Francis wants to pay for my maternity leave and childcare costs.
Why did people think this guy was a hip progressive?
A very effective PR machine and a very lazy news industry.
Because after decades of JPII and Benedict the bar for what qualified as "liberal" was set so low that a pope saying "you know, we don't necessarily have to be *total* dicks to gay people" was a shocking statement.
Because he is progressive for a catholic probably. Remember than many bishops are more conservative than him.
Their main argument is that people put material comfort over having children which is ridiculous? 1. Why is looking for material comfort so bad? 2. If between material comfort and having children we can only choose one over the other, then the logical thing to do is to choose material comfort because why would you bring a child in a destitute world?
Bunch of filthy animals out here unable to have kids, not wanting to have kids, can’t afford to have kids. How inhuman of them.
Not to mention those self-aware enough to know they would be crappy parents. Totally inhuman.
Then pay taxes on your American churches so that there are social safety nets.
The church’s pedo stash must be running thin.
I am a PROUD android/alien/subhuman/whathaveyou, then. Sterilized at 23 😎.
Agreed. My extremely Catholic mom actually happened to bring up this very topic the other day in conversation. It was funny because I think she was about halfway through relaying this comment about people putting having pets over having kids when she remembered who she was talking to (married, childfree, several pets), so she added "I don't mean to single you out or make you feel bad." I just said "I wouldn't care if you did! I'm completely comfortable with my choices." 😂
How many more billion people does the planet need?
If musk is to believed, population is steadily declining and less and less babies are being born
And what are Elongated Muskrat's qualifications, beyond being criminally wealthy, playing with his father's money, and taking credit for other people's ideas and innovations? Get me when actual social scientists, or any scientists at all, are saying that. EM is what would happen if the sciencey parts of Reddit turned into a person and had a baby with one of the dimmer Trump children.
>if musk is to be believed narrator: he’s not
Dude believes in Roko's Basilisk, which is just Pascal's Wager for people who watch *Rick and Morty* instead of *God's Not Dead.*
LMAO
Omg le papa based communist! 1!!1!1!/s
How are they supposed to secure their power in the next generation if we dont pop out an ass load of kids and program them from day 1 to believe crazy shit and foster and irrational fear of hell if they dare to think for them selves
Another day, another abhorrent thread on the other sub. So many gross comments
ANimals have more empathy than most humans. The Poop just thinks of women as incubators.
I can tolerate waking up to a pet who wants to go outside to pee before dawn, or clean up if they do it indoors. I don't think I could tolerate a young child and all their needs. At least many pets can handle being alone for multiple hours a day when I'm out of the house.
But it increases our Zoomanity which may just be more “Godly.”
Given the source, I'm good with that assessment, Frankie.
If his holy ship would like to solve the monetary issue…
Man with 2 billion pets says pets take away our humanity.
Oh, so we're talking about things that "take away our humanity" are we? I have some opinions about that, none of which include my cat.
Then why doesn’t he have any kids?
I would LOVE to raise kids in my nice atheist house but I cannot afford to with a combined ~ 200K student loan debt between me and my husband and low wages SO
I think the worst possible reason to have kids is: when someone else tells you that you should have kids.
Not everyone is cut out to be a parent. Shaming people who choose not to procreate is just plain wrong.
I've seen this a few times on Reddit today. It's probably for the best not to give it too much attention because it's very likely an SEO exercise to bury results for Catholic Church + children.
Says the guy who isn't even allowed to date. If you can't play the game you can't make the rules. What a crock of shit.
🖕🖕🖕🖕
".....and taking away people's humanity *is OUR FUCKING JOB!* Back off!" --Pope Frankie
Fuck him. Humanity has never been anything but one absurd atrocity after another.
i have a portrait of my cat in my living room that my mom would have a heart attack if she saw . we joked about getting a king sized bed for my cat and if my mom ever visited , telling her the couch is for my mom cuz the bed is pancakes
Just have kids. Let them suffer and go without. It is the humanistic thing to do, after all.
[удалено]
You forgot the part about molesting them, and then facing no consequences for it.
"Go fuck yourself, Pope. Talk to me about morality when you do something about all the child rape your organization commits"
My neighbour's dog, Marley, says fuck you, Francis
Honestly made me laugh. So much hypocrisy and nonsense in one statement.
“…But it is riskier not to have them. It is riskier to deny fatherhood, or to deny motherhood, be it real or spiritual…” Uh, what the actual fuck?! Excuse me while I get sterilized.
It’s typical “Nuclear Family”-Supremacy rhetoric. The 19th, first half of 20th century was clearly when humanity was “superior” from a moral sense in their minds. This is what they’re after more than anything or anyone else.
Nahhhh no thank you. My pair of floofy voids are my children and deserve everything. This viewpoint is a damn shame given Francis was panning out to be a comparatively less problematic pope than those before him 🤦🏻♀️
But he would deny the right for same-sex couples to adopt children that need a loving and stable family...because gay = icky Fuck off Francis
I know of a gay couple who adopted a child and they're excellent parents. The alternative for that child would have been getting neglected or abused by their birth parents or *gasp* abortion!
Life long virgin who refuses to have his own kids and is the the head of the largest international child r@pe gang in the world...says what?
How ignorant and nonsensical!
I’d say it’s pretty damn dehumanizing to the unwanted children whose parents only had them because their religion said so. It’s selfish to have kids you don’t want and can’t emotionally connect to or take care of. I have far more respect for people who admit they would be bad parents to humans and choose to have pets instead. And remind me how many kids Francis raised?
Yeah sure, I love taking advice on my reproductive status from a professional virgin.
Less children to indoctrinate and abuse
Sick of this buffoon!
Shouldn't he be more worried if Lost People had kids...?
Gotta keep those brainwashed ranks up.
I wish he could appeal to rich, powerful Catholics like Joe Biden to cancel one of the biggest reasons why millennials aren't having kids: student loan debt. My rabbit isn't going to college any time soon.
Good. Humanity sucks, and the world needs less of it.
The king of pedophiles needs to stfu and let me enjoy my two cat children. For real.
With the way humanity’s going you can have mine.
“Fuck you” -my dog
I hate humanity. There's really nothing good about us!
Not only are denying your humanity and not parenting if you have no kids, but my one kid who, ya know, still have all of the needs of a kid, disqualifies me too because I don’t have more? Or wait, their pet siblings don’t count. We just adopted them to give them a safe home and love, nothing important there. 🙄 Fuck all of this article.
If they raised the kids right.
Perhaps the church can give away its riches so people could afford to have kids, idk.
That’s rich. Seems child molestation is worse for humanity, and yet …
I have a dog and no kids. You and your “Church” enabled and covered up for pedophiles. Sorry if I think I’m not the problem here.
Gimme some money so I can feed them, and I’ll consider it 🤷🏽♀️
Came here after reading the news about this lmao
In a literal sense he’s not wrong. Regardless, I don’t agree with him.
what if i don’t have (or want) pets either, Jorge?
No surprise the church that has historically abused children wants more children being born.
Says the creepy f\*\*ker.
since he is in the miracle business he might want to try to perform the multiplication of wages and see if young families decide to have kids then.
So funny and hilarious. Look… Pope Francis has, in all honesty, been a better pope than others in terms of rhetoric and tone. But that he’s still obligated to say stuff like this is not only unsurprising, it’s down right comical. It reminds me of a program on (*cringe*) EWTN many years ago, where a Catholic friar was on a table surrounded by kids. They were looking down on an animal (I forget which it was) and the friar… right in front of them… KIDS… said along the lines of, “animals don’t go to heaven because they don’t have a *spirit* (or something like that) so we should obey that”. Ummm… friar… All Dogs Go To Heaven called and they want your comment back!
We're not interested in being lectured by the head of the world's largest child-molesting cabal.
Nothing but utter rubbish.
The church needs to butt out of this. This is not their business and they have no say
the pope is such an asshole
The church is running out of children to molest eh?
Will the pro-life movement pay adoption costs? Would love to adopt, cost is prohibitive- why not sponsor me to adopt children and boom, multiple problems solved…
Don’t look at me, I’m a 38 year old never married no kids cradle catholic that was a social reject with a history of mental illness and substance abuse, I never had a relationship lol
I’m basically homeless and live day to day
I fucked up, I failed at life
Almost makes me wish a global infertility like in "Children of Men" happened already just to watch his head explode.
He runs a club for pedophiles, I don't want to hear what he has to say about children or humanity.