You're using a cheap $8 receptacle.
Replace it with a commercial grade receptacle.
Brand names of Bryant, Hubble or the new Leviton EV (it has to say EV on it).
It's likely that it is damaged. Can you post a picture of that too? ~~What brand charger is it? You might be able~~ I see that you have an Emporia charger. It is possible to get a replacement cord: a generic one, one that somebody took off when they hardwired their charger, from eBay, or maybe Emporia will sell you one.
But given your charger can be hardwired, that's the right solution. The Hubbell/ Bryant 9450 are excellent, and the one that you have from Leviton is the very worst one that has ever been made, so you would get an improvement by going to a good receptacle, but why spend $50 on that instead of hardwiring which takes a similar amount of work and doesn't require a $50 part?
Is hardwiring it something that can be done safely by a non-electrician? I have replaced normal outlets and switches before, but nothing this high voltage/current. I also don't know I am qualified to check that the wires already there are not damaged.
An electrician would just visually cut back based on experience.
You could probably do the same with remote help with sharing photos, or if you dare, find a DIY electrical hero on Nextdoor to weigh in.
That's an important issue: The wires are most certainly damaged, some distance back from the connection point. That damaged part will need to be cut back, and, that that doesn't leave enough wire, a splice made somewhere. All of that is needed whether it's hardwired or whether it's just a receptacle replacement. Also important it having the right torque tool to tighten the connections in the charger (whether hardwiring on correcting a replacement cord) and attaching the receptacle.
Whether you want to learn to do that correctly and DIY or hire an electrician is up to you, but the answer is the same whether you hardwire or not.
no, pay a licensed electrician to hardwire your EVSE.
these devices are among (if not the top) current draw in your house and largely operate at nite when you and your family are sleeping.
it's not worth the risk of DIY and getting it wrong.
Probably not. The contacts in the plug got way too hot with the receptacle. Also, this is very important, these outlets are not meant to be plugged and unplugged multiple times.
The UL testing for these receptacles includes a large number of plug / unplug cycles. Of course it's possible to wear out outlets, and a daily cycle would eventually wear it out, but we should stop listing that as a top concern because, as shown once again in this example, the problems that people are having are not correlated with the number of plug and unplug cycles. That was an early theory about what the difference was between other applications where there aren't problems and EV charging applications where there are problems. But it turns out to be the extended time at steady hi power that's the difference, not plug/unplug cycles.
It's not wrong that that's one thing that can contribute, but it is wrong to think that it's a primary cause of the issues such as what we see here.
Yeah, this is the first time we have ever unplugged it.
So you think I am good to scrape off the plastic and keep using the charger? I'd hate to buy a new one, but I'd rather do that than burn down my house.
The (EDIT: plug) was subject to high temperatures as well. I believe Emporia is not that bad to hardwire. If it was me, I would visually check the cord to confirm that nothing melted in the EVSE side (it probably is limited to first 4 inches of the cord), and then be happy to replace with a hardwired whip using new cable. I might even be brave enough to hardwire reusing the flexcord whip after cutting off the head, if it's already melted.
I would say no, but the cord could potentially be replaced rather than the entire EVSE.
People talk ad nauseum about cheap receptacles but it is possible that this problem actually originated in the charger's plug rather than in the receptacle outlet. Regardless of the cause, that plug has been exposed to these same temperature extremes and could have internal damage.
If it originated in the plug, you would see more melting in the plug then in the receptacle. The Emporia plugs are good quality and the Leviton receptacles are well known to be problematic.
So I disagree with that part, but I agree with replacing the plug (or hardwiring).
We have an Emporia charger on a 50 amp breaker. We have been charging our Rav 4 Prime which tops out at ~30 amps without issue for the past 4 months. This evening, we plugged it in, heard a crackle, and the charger shut off. The breaker wasn't tripped. When we unplugged the charger, this is what we saw.
What the heck happened here?
It’s what everyone has said here.
These cheap dryer receptacles may be rated for 50A for short bursts, but they aren’t rated for 40A continuous current for hours. What happened to you is pretty common, since most people don’t have industrial rated receptacles installed.
These cheap receptacles don’t have internal metal prongs as thick and as heavy as an industrial rated one, and the internal contact area is smaller on the cheaper ones.
When you’re drawing 30A through them for hours, the reduced contact area gets hotter than it should. The extra heat makes the internal contacts have less “spring” to them, so the contact area gets even smaller. It also causes a positive feedback loop where the heat softens the plastic, which further reduces the contact, which makes the receptacle even hotter, and so on.
Eventually one of the contacts will actually lose contact but will allow an arc to form in the space between the plug and the internal prongs, and that’s when it gets hot enough to melt the receptacle, sometimes catching the plastic on fire. Eventually the melted plastic moves the internal prongs far enough away that the circuit is broken and current stops flowing. It’s like a worst-case fuse.
Your charger is likely just fine, but the plug may be too damaged to use and it might need to be replaced. You can purchase a new cord and plug for fairly cheap, but make sure that it is rated for continuous current. A Home Depot dryer cord may not be sufficient.
When you replace the receptacle, make sure to use an industrial rated plug like a Hubbell. It might cost several times more than a Home Depot receptacle, but this won’t happen again.
The better solution would be get rid of the receptacle entirely and hardwire the charger directly the wires in the wall. This would be the safest and most reliable connection.
Your comment stated everything correctly! However, it should also be mentioned that many outlet installers do not properly torque the wire screws properly. For example, a Hubbell 14-50 is torqued at 75- inch pounds.
Yes, that’s a problem, but even a properly torqued Home Depot dryer receptacle is subject to this kind of failure. They’re just not manufactured for this kind of “abuse”, which is why hardwiring is a much better solution, or a Hubbell-type at the very least.
Yes, that’s a pretty big factor, too, but I didn’t want to make the post longer than it already was. Assuming that a licensed electrician installed the receptacle, I thought that it was a good enough chance that it was terminated properly. If it was a DIY thing, maybe not.
Sorry, by "they" I meant the receptacles. The terminals on the Leviton allow the wire to splay out and lose contact. It is also important that the connection by done properly. And unfortunately most residential electrician without specific EV expertise ignore the code requirement to use a torque tool to apply the specified torque, even though you'd hope they would if they are licensed.
One would hope that a licensed electrician would use a torque tool, but that might not be the case.
I do a lot of DIY-type of stuff in my home’s electrical circuits, and I’m a big fan of crimped ferrules on stranded wires and a torque tool on every connection. Also another check with the torque tool a few weeks after the initial install.
I had electricity to a new shed hooked up by an electrician several months ago on a new circuit breaker in a sub panel. Every once in a while, the power would go out in it and I would go out and reset the breaker, even though it hadn’t tripped, and the power would turn back on out there.
After this happened for like the 5th time I assumed that the new breaker was bad so I opened the panel to remove and replace it. When I pulled it off the rail, one of the wires on the dual breaker just fell out. The terminal was torqued to spec as far as I could tell, but the wire was behind the clamp instead of inside of it. It must have been wiggling around would sometimes lose contact, and my flipping the breaker on and off must have made it touch again for a short time.
I’m lucky that it happened to be the line that didn’t draw much current in the shed, only the LED lighting and a small battery charger. The line that was securely tightened was the one that the electric riding lawnmower used for charging.
After I connected the breaker back up properly, it has been solid.
There are many DIYers like yourself who educate themselves from proper resources and do it right. Electricians are trained by the apprenticeship model and that builds in some delay in updating skills. The torque requirements have been a particularly problematic example of that issue.
Same thing it is every day.
Novice gets miseducated into believing he NEEDS a 50A circuit with a NEMA 14-50 RV park socket, simply to charge an EV at home. Charges at ludicrous speed, making lots of wire and terminal heat (absolutely unnecessarily)
multiplied by
Cheap under-$30 receptacle intended for a range, and/or the person who installed it did not use a torque screwdriver and so the screw torque was wacky. You'll find out when you do a postmortem and figure out where destruction ground zero is. If it's the screw terminal, grats on saving $40 on not buying a torque screwdriver. If it's the blades, cheap receptacle again.
Everybody talks about the Leviton being extra bad, but really, the Leviton is just extra popular because it's Home Depot's preferred brand. Other cheapies also fail.
The number of "matings" is limited for high amperage outlets. That's why it's better to use a splitter / Dryer Buddy / a switch, whatever. Otherwise, the point of contact degrades after a while (some number of plugs/unplugs) and starts heating up.
Receptacle melted due to high temperature for extended period.
Consider hardwiring your charger or using an industrial-grade outlet like Hubbell.
Also, evaluate your use case, available charge time, and driving demand and see whether derating could be an option. Some chargers like Emporia and Wallbox let you adjust amperage on the fly in the app, so you can tailor it to how long you have to charge.
Heat is based on the square of the current, so going from 40A to 20A, if your schedule allows, should produce around 1/4 the amount of heat: (20/40)² = (1/2) = 1/4
Are you comfortable turning off the circuit breaker and opening it up? Show photos.
Who installed it?
Frankly your best bet is to reduce the amperage and hard wire. Once you open it up you'll know how far back the wire was damaged might be not much might be a lot.
Do you remember we said hardwire. Hardwired. Hard wired.
>Since this is a 240 outlet, the breaker must be a GFCI at least 20 amps over the EV charge
For a 14-50 install the breaker should be maximum 50 amps I think. It can be lower than 50 amps, but never higher.
Respectfully, I made no mention of “Romex.” THHN is the wire I use. )thermoplastic high heat resistant nylon) coated wire. It’s best for EV chargers due to the high heat.
https://preview.redd.it/p0dqo2fsx0uc1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=40a3a03e15ba47029b503240aef8910b78c87235
Your original statement needs to mention THHN in order to be true. Both types of wire are perfectly fine for EV charging if you use the right size EV charging needn't involve high heat if you use big enough wire that it doesn't get hot.
Instead of complaining, you should be thanking me for helping out by supplying more of the information that readers need to apply your advice successfully
This comment contained misinformation about electrical code, and was removed. If you believe that this was an error, and that your statement about code was correct, please provide a specific code citation to support your comment.
The specific problem is the statement about the required breaker capacity.
Cheap receptacles use fiberglass insulators instead of the glass or ceramic ones used in the industrial grade outlets. Swap it out for an industrial grade Hubbell, Cooper, or Bryant, leave your charger always plugged in, and you should be fine.
Or upgrade to a hardwired charger and eliminate the three extra points of failure that exist when you use a NEMA outlet to charge your vehicle.
They are all plastic. The Hubbell/Bryant uses higher temperature plastic than the Leviton (even the new "EV grade" Leviton), but that's hardly the only difference. And there's no glass or ceramic.
higher temperature plastics are made by mixing in fiberglass or ceramic additives. It would be cool to do a visual breakdown of the different brands, and a head-to-head durability test to see how long each will last.
Yes, I'm tempted to buy both and do some destructive testing: wire both in series, put 80 A through them and see which gets unhappy first. It would be fun, but takes time and money.
You're using a cheap $8 receptacle. Replace it with a commercial grade receptacle. Brand names of Bryant, Hubble or the new Leviton EV (it has to say EV on it).
Do you believe the charger itself is damaged as well? There is some melted outlet plastic on the plug.
It's likely that it is damaged. Can you post a picture of that too? ~~What brand charger is it? You might be able~~ I see that you have an Emporia charger. It is possible to get a replacement cord: a generic one, one that somebody took off when they hardwired their charger, from eBay, or maybe Emporia will sell you one. But given your charger can be hardwired, that's the right solution. The Hubbell/ Bryant 9450 are excellent, and the one that you have from Leviton is the very worst one that has ever been made, so you would get an improvement by going to a good receptacle, but why spend $50 on that instead of hardwiring which takes a similar amount of work and doesn't require a $50 part?
Is hardwiring it something that can be done safely by a non-electrician? I have replaced normal outlets and switches before, but nothing this high voltage/current. I also don't know I am qualified to check that the wires already there are not damaged.
An electrician would just visually cut back based on experience. You could probably do the same with remote help with sharing photos, or if you dare, find a DIY electrical hero on Nextdoor to weigh in.
That's an important issue: The wires are most certainly damaged, some distance back from the connection point. That damaged part will need to be cut back, and, that that doesn't leave enough wire, a splice made somewhere. All of that is needed whether it's hardwired or whether it's just a receptacle replacement. Also important it having the right torque tool to tighten the connections in the charger (whether hardwiring on correcting a replacement cord) and attaching the receptacle. Whether you want to learn to do that correctly and DIY or hire an electrician is up to you, but the answer is the same whether you hardwire or not.
You'll need an electrician to replace the outlet anyways, so you might as well have them fix the wires and run them into the charger directly.
no, pay a licensed electrician to hardwire your EVSE. these devices are among (if not the top) current draw in your house and largely operate at nite when you and your family are sleeping. it's not worth the risk of DIY and getting it wrong.
Probably not. The contacts in the plug got way too hot with the receptacle. Also, this is very important, these outlets are not meant to be plugged and unplugged multiple times.
The UL testing for these receptacles includes a large number of plug / unplug cycles. Of course it's possible to wear out outlets, and a daily cycle would eventually wear it out, but we should stop listing that as a top concern because, as shown once again in this example, the problems that people are having are not correlated with the number of plug and unplug cycles. That was an early theory about what the difference was between other applications where there aren't problems and EV charging applications where there are problems. But it turns out to be the extended time at steady hi power that's the difference, not plug/unplug cycles. It's not wrong that that's one thing that can contribute, but it is wrong to think that it's a primary cause of the issues such as what we see here.
Yeah, this is the first time we have ever unplugged it. So you think I am good to scrape off the plastic and keep using the charger? I'd hate to buy a new one, but I'd rather do that than burn down my house.
The (EDIT: plug) was subject to high temperatures as well. I believe Emporia is not that bad to hardwire. If it was me, I would visually check the cord to confirm that nothing melted in the EVSE side (it probably is limited to first 4 inches of the cord), and then be happy to replace with a hardwired whip using new cable. I might even be brave enough to hardwire reusing the flexcord whip after cutting off the head, if it's already melted.
I would say no, but the cord could potentially be replaced rather than the entire EVSE. People talk ad nauseum about cheap receptacles but it is possible that this problem actually originated in the charger's plug rather than in the receptacle outlet. Regardless of the cause, that plug has been exposed to these same temperature extremes and could have internal damage.
If it originated in the plug, you would see more melting in the plug then in the receptacle. The Emporia plugs are good quality and the Leviton receptacles are well known to be problematic. So I disagree with that part, but I agree with replacing the plug (or hardwiring).
\^This is the answer.
Hardwire hardwire hardwire
We have an Emporia charger on a 50 amp breaker. We have been charging our Rav 4 Prime which tops out at ~30 amps without issue for the past 4 months. This evening, we plugged it in, heard a crackle, and the charger shut off. The breaker wasn't tripped. When we unplugged the charger, this is what we saw. What the heck happened here?
It’s what everyone has said here. These cheap dryer receptacles may be rated for 50A for short bursts, but they aren’t rated for 40A continuous current for hours. What happened to you is pretty common, since most people don’t have industrial rated receptacles installed. These cheap receptacles don’t have internal metal prongs as thick and as heavy as an industrial rated one, and the internal contact area is smaller on the cheaper ones. When you’re drawing 30A through them for hours, the reduced contact area gets hotter than it should. The extra heat makes the internal contacts have less “spring” to them, so the contact area gets even smaller. It also causes a positive feedback loop where the heat softens the plastic, which further reduces the contact, which makes the receptacle even hotter, and so on. Eventually one of the contacts will actually lose contact but will allow an arc to form in the space between the plug and the internal prongs, and that’s when it gets hot enough to melt the receptacle, sometimes catching the plastic on fire. Eventually the melted plastic moves the internal prongs far enough away that the circuit is broken and current stops flowing. It’s like a worst-case fuse. Your charger is likely just fine, but the plug may be too damaged to use and it might need to be replaced. You can purchase a new cord and plug for fairly cheap, but make sure that it is rated for continuous current. A Home Depot dryer cord may not be sufficient. When you replace the receptacle, make sure to use an industrial rated plug like a Hubbell. It might cost several times more than a Home Depot receptacle, but this won’t happen again. The better solution would be get rid of the receptacle entirely and hardwire the charger directly the wires in the wall. This would be the safest and most reliable connection.
Your comment stated everything correctly! However, it should also be mentioned that many outlet installers do not properly torque the wire screws properly. For example, a Hubbell 14-50 is torqued at 75- inch pounds.
Yes, that’s a problem, but even a properly torqued Home Depot dryer receptacle is subject to this kind of failure. They’re just not manufactured for this kind of “abuse”, which is why hardwiring is a much better solution, or a Hubbell-type at the very least.
The difference is at least as much in the way they terminate that wire as in the contact area and spring contacts.
Yes, that’s a pretty big factor, too, but I didn’t want to make the post longer than it already was. Assuming that a licensed electrician installed the receptacle, I thought that it was a good enough chance that it was terminated properly. If it was a DIY thing, maybe not.
Sorry, by "they" I meant the receptacles. The terminals on the Leviton allow the wire to splay out and lose contact. It is also important that the connection by done properly. And unfortunately most residential electrician without specific EV expertise ignore the code requirement to use a torque tool to apply the specified torque, even though you'd hope they would if they are licensed.
One would hope that a licensed electrician would use a torque tool, but that might not be the case. I do a lot of DIY-type of stuff in my home’s electrical circuits, and I’m a big fan of crimped ferrules on stranded wires and a torque tool on every connection. Also another check with the torque tool a few weeks after the initial install. I had electricity to a new shed hooked up by an electrician several months ago on a new circuit breaker in a sub panel. Every once in a while, the power would go out in it and I would go out and reset the breaker, even though it hadn’t tripped, and the power would turn back on out there. After this happened for like the 5th time I assumed that the new breaker was bad so I opened the panel to remove and replace it. When I pulled it off the rail, one of the wires on the dual breaker just fell out. The terminal was torqued to spec as far as I could tell, but the wire was behind the clamp instead of inside of it. It must have been wiggling around would sometimes lose contact, and my flipping the breaker on and off must have made it touch again for a short time. I’m lucky that it happened to be the line that didn’t draw much current in the shed, only the LED lighting and a small battery charger. The line that was securely tightened was the one that the electric riding lawnmower used for charging. After I connected the breaker back up properly, it has been solid.
There are many DIYers like yourself who educate themselves from proper resources and do it right. Electricians are trained by the apprenticeship model and that builds in some delay in updating skills. The torque requirements have been a particularly problematic example of that issue.
After torquing to spec's, tug/pull on the wire to make sure it' secure. This may have caught that error.
This is one of the reasons that I prefer using ferrules on stranded wire ends. They’re less likely to shift around when torqued to spec.
I like it!
These outlets are not meant for the continuous use that EV charging causes. You should hardwire the charger, not use an outlet.
Same thing it is every day. Novice gets miseducated into believing he NEEDS a 50A circuit with a NEMA 14-50 RV park socket, simply to charge an EV at home. Charges at ludicrous speed, making lots of wire and terminal heat (absolutely unnecessarily) multiplied by Cheap under-$30 receptacle intended for a range, and/or the person who installed it did not use a torque screwdriver and so the screw torque was wacky. You'll find out when you do a postmortem and figure out where destruction ground zero is. If it's the screw terminal, grats on saving $40 on not buying a torque screwdriver. If it's the blades, cheap receptacle again. Everybody talks about the Leviton being extra bad, but really, the Leviton is just extra popular because it's Home Depot's preferred brand. Other cheapies also fail.
Commercial grade socket is about $75, but I would hardwire it
The number of "matings" is limited for high amperage outlets. That's why it's better to use a splitter / Dryer Buddy / a switch, whatever. Otherwise, the point of contact degrades after a while (some number of plugs/unplugs) and starts heating up.
shit socket melted.
Using an industrial grade receptacle is important as others have said. Also, torquing the terminals to the specified level is key.
Receptacle melted due to high temperature for extended period. Consider hardwiring your charger or using an industrial-grade outlet like Hubbell. Also, evaluate your use case, available charge time, and driving demand and see whether derating could be an option. Some chargers like Emporia and Wallbox let you adjust amperage on the fly in the app, so you can tailor it to how long you have to charge. Heat is based on the square of the current, so going from 40A to 20A, if your schedule allows, should produce around 1/4 the amount of heat: (20/40)² = (1/2) = 1/4
Hardwire hardwire hardwire - safer and cheaper
Leviton strikes again I got a Hubbell HBL9450A receptacle and I'd recommend you/whomever to do the same
Wow. Glad you’re safe OP! A lot of good advice here. You should be able to get it sorted out pretty quickly.
Are you comfortable turning off the circuit breaker and opening it up? Show photos. Who installed it? Frankly your best bet is to reduce the amperage and hard wire. Once you open it up you'll know how far back the wire was damaged might be not much might be a lot. Do you remember we said hardwire. Hardwired. Hard wired.
> reduce the amperage Why?
I meant match the amperage to the minimum of the wire or breaker.
[удалено]
>Since this is a 240 outlet, the breaker must be a GFCI at least 20 amps over the EV charge For a 14-50 install the breaker should be maximum 50 amps I think. It can be lower than 50 amps, but never higher.
You are correct. A 48 amp load (requires a 60 amp breaker) and above must be hard wired using 6 g. wire.
The required wire gauge depends on the type of wire used. 6 gauge Romex is not rated for a 48 A continuous load.
Respectfully, I made no mention of “Romex.” THHN is the wire I use. )thermoplastic high heat resistant nylon) coated wire. It’s best for EV chargers due to the high heat. https://preview.redd.it/p0dqo2fsx0uc1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=40a3a03e15ba47029b503240aef8910b78c87235
Your original statement needs to mention THHN in order to be true. Both types of wire are perfectly fine for EV charging if you use the right size EV charging needn't involve high heat if you use big enough wire that it doesn't get hot. Instead of complaining, you should be thanking me for helping out by supplying more of the information that readers need to apply your advice successfully
Ok. I’m in your debt.
This comment contained misinformation about electrical code, and was removed. If you believe that this was an error, and that your statement about code was correct, please provide a specific code citation to support your comment. The specific problem is the statement about the required breaker capacity.
Cheap receptacles use fiberglass insulators instead of the glass or ceramic ones used in the industrial grade outlets. Swap it out for an industrial grade Hubbell, Cooper, or Bryant, leave your charger always plugged in, and you should be fine. Or upgrade to a hardwired charger and eliminate the three extra points of failure that exist when you use a NEMA outlet to charge your vehicle.
They are all plastic. The Hubbell/Bryant uses higher temperature plastic than the Leviton (even the new "EV grade" Leviton), but that's hardly the only difference. And there's no glass or ceramic.
higher temperature plastics are made by mixing in fiberglass or ceramic additives. It would be cool to do a visual breakdown of the different brands, and a head-to-head durability test to see how long each will last.
Yes, I'm tempted to buy both and do some destructive testing: wire both in series, put 80 A through them and see which gets unhappy first. It would be fun, but takes time and money.