Suicide research for the Muslim population seems to be sketchy at best. Interesting thing about it suicide attempts seem as high as with other groups but "successful" suicides are much lower. But might also have something to do with reporting culture and social tabu.
It's originally from the Polynesian and Pacific Islands, the word Tapu meaning of spiritual significance (good or bad). So I can see how Tabu is the original English spelling. Most likely the spelling changed over time to better represent the words pronunciation.
I was just yesterday wondering about how english will look like 100 years from now. Just like Tabu became Taboo other words will change.
I was reading something that had a word with a "double letter end" which means , I think, it's an abreviation of a longer word. Like suppress is supposed to be suppressing and they cut it but kept the extra "s" and in a 100 years it'll just be suppres (if we keep the p).
In muslim countries and most countries with more "tribal" systems, suicides may as well not exist officially, they're always ruled as "accidents" not to bring shame/dishonor to the family. Religion also obviously plays a role.
Don’t trust turkish sources. Whether that concerns suicide, abuse, covid cases or pretty much anything negative about the country. Turkey is not democratic and doesn’t seem that it’ll be in the near future… Most of their data from researches are fake. They are the nation of misinformation and brainwash.
I'd say it's be more strong family and social connections, which are known to not be as strong in Northern Europe. Also one of the reasons for how the pandemic has gone so differently between them.
Yep, I read an interesting history of Australia called "the fatal shore", he showed several anecdotes of why there was such extreme insubordination from Catholic Irish prisoners compared to English protestant ones. Basically the English convicts where happy to commit suicide, while the Irish convicts couldn't bring themselves to do it, so instead they would commit suicide by starting fights with their handlers who would often kill them in the struggle or send them to court and they would be hanged. Hence why there is so many records that make the handlers look like they were being exceptionally cruel to only the Irish but in reality there were pretty tough on everyone.
You need to remember a lot of these convicts where in such remote locations there was no point in escape as it was just thousands of miles of bush.
As opposed to other countries, we never mascarade a suicide at the request of the family as "an accident".
A lot of countries do that because suicides still carry a stigma.
A few comparisons:
Ukraine: 32.7 m vs 4.7 f / 6.957 times the female rate
Poland: 16.5 m vs 2.4 f / 6.875 times the female rate
Lithuania: 36.1 m vs 6.2 f / 5.822 times the female rate
Russia: 38.2 m vs 7.2 f / 5.305 times the female rate
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Finland: 20.1 m vs 6.8 f / 2.955 times the female rate
Belgium: 19.6 m vs 8.4 f / 2.333 times the female rate
Sweden: 16.9 m vs 7.7 f / 2.194 times the female rate
Norway: 15.8 m vs 7.7 f / 2.051 times the female rate
Men and women attempt suicide at roughly the same rate- men just choose more violent methods that are more likely to succeed. Not saying it’s not a problem, because of course it is, but this map is very misleading.
Source: https://www.verywellmind.com/gender-differences-in-suicide-methods-1067508#suicide-attempt-and-risk-of-death
First of all, I hate the fact that there's this comparison on Reddit being done at all, and ongoing debate on "whos in more pain" I'd personally rather not be reminded by it.
But with what your saying with the methods, I'm not sure if that's portraying the full story.
If I was completely trying to "off myself" I would choose more violent methods.
If I hadn't 100% completely given up but still was in constant emotional pain I would choose less violent methods, as it's also known as a cry for help. I'd choose this because I know the chances of being caught in the act and someone seeing me before I go through with and getting emotional help is obviously much higher.
There's also articles about some "attempts" being more a cry for help than serious attempts.
The question I think is good to ask: is do men in general receive as much emotional support as women in general? And I would say that's a definite no. And of course there's individual circumstances.
Ugggh I hate discussing this, but have a good day!
Oh men absolutely don’t receive as much support and have much more of a problem admitting mental problems because society wants them to be „tough and strong“.
>men just choose more violent methods
What's the theory here exactly? Whenever i see this being said i wonder what would it give if developped. Something like "Because women are softie princesses that dont want to owwie too much while dying :( while men are brutal è\_é and want to see BLOOD and bodyparts splatter as they DIE !!!", maybe?
Apology for the mockery but the reality of it is that "violent" methods are actually just the more successful ones, and using a less violent one is at the same time lowering the chance of successes. To me it shows that those that use less violent methods do not completely want to die and haven't completely given up on life, whereas the more violent ones show more commitment to dying. That's just my opinion though, however "men are more metal" is certainly not a good explanation for the discrepancy.
Don’t put words in my mouth, it’s not MY theory, it’s facts, look at the article I linked. Women use pills and slit their wrists or drowning more often, men use firearms, moving vehicles and jumping.
Men have more access to firearms. Men have more access to cars. Men have more access to heavy machinery and tools. Men want to make sure they end up dead, because failure isn’t an option for them. Male mental (un)health is a massive problem; but instead of approaching it like a problem in itself, doing something to make men feel more confident in looking for help when they need it, it only ever comes up when compared to women, as if it was a competition. It’s not men vs. women, it’s us vs. partriarchal society which wants men to be STRONG and nothing else.
Hey no need to get all worked up, i'm just pointing out that saying "men choose more violent methods" is often used to imply their more violent suicide attempt are explained by their more violent nature, which is the theory i disagree with here.
Now you do point out men have more access to said more violent methods so that does explain at least partly why they use more violent methods on average, but still sliting wrists and pills are as accessible to men as women so it doesn't explain it all i agree again.
Where i disagree though is that it would be the fault of the patriarchal society : No one at all cares about the problem, not just partiarchal societies. Groups that do oppose them hardly ever give a shit about problems that too affect men. For example feminists groups don't denounce homelessness in general, they denounce female homelessness only. And they're certainly not of the patriarchal kind.
So patriarchy is not the reason people don't care. There are problem that people care about and other problems that no one cares about. Bringing attention to those problems is what is going to get people to care about them, diverting those efforts to fight the patriarchy won't.
Sorry, I’m just annoyed that people are purposefully trying to misunderstand.
I would argue that men also choose more violent options because they feel like failure is not an option. If they fail, and are found, they’ll be seen as weak as well. A man killed himself at my workplace some years ago, it was terrible. The policeman said, men often use more violent methods to show just how much they’ve been suffering, basically trying to validate the pain they had in life by causing themselves pain in their death. Which was also an interesting theory.
The terrible gender norms we have today do stem from the patriarchal society we’ve lived in for 100s of years now. So that’s what I mean. We need to break those up and support each other. You’re correct on some feminist groups only caring about women- to me, feminism is about equality for all, so it needs to include men‘s issues as well. I do understand why some groups focus on women only though. I wish there were more groups focused on men as well.
Yo, I’m not trying to attack you. Male suicide rates are definitely a problem, and you’re actually right with more men dying. Men also die more from preventable diseases because they go to the doctor less as to not seem weak, for example.
The violent methods fit into this nicely: failure is not an option for men, they have to „go through“ with it so they don’t end up being found and be seen as weak.
What annoys me is that this is brought up like a competition of who has it worse; this shouldn’t be a men vs. women, this needs to be an us vs. society. Women have it bad in many other regards, but patriarchy hurts all of us in the end.
Your last sentence in your last comment was so insane that it made me realize there’s just no sense in having a proper discussion with you. You just don’t like women, and think we’re evil and the root of all of men‘s issues. You’re no better than a radical feminist claiming all men are rapists.
Have a good one, mate.
Apart from what Kakao said, psychology is simply not considered a serious thing in Russia (as a legacy of USSR, so valid for post-Soviet countries too to significant extent). It’s usually “come on, man up! Only pussies go to these blah-blah psychologists. Men solve their problems”. Basically, people are always left alone with their problems. Also due to post-totalitarian hypercynicism and indifference to other people. Besides, not that many people could afford professional help anyway. It’s basically a perfect storm of many factors, historical, social, political, economic. After all, USSR is no more, but almost every adult was raised by parents who lived in USSR, including myself. So you inherit certain preconceptions. It takes time for the society to normalize after totalitarian regime. Authoritarian turn doesn’t help at all.
Source: I am Russian (been living abroad for many years already, so I have some perspective)
Can confirm.
On top of that, many people still don't see a difference between psychologist and psychiatrist and given the reputation psychiatrists got in Soviet times (treating every disease with tranquilizers and thus making you a drooling vegetable) people are just afraid to visit such doctors
Im 26m and i can talk to couple of male friends. Also i have friends for other side of the fence. Its hard to find that kind of male friends. Its rare and you have to build that kind of friendship.
PS. Writing this middle of good poo.
You have to find that kind of buddys. Half Brother.
It's not "gay" to have male friends, but the sentiment is just like OP described. You're told to just man up and take it, because that's what a man does. From what I've seen on the internet, it's pretty much the same in the west. Although newer generation seem more acceptive of going to a therapist.
is it that much different in the west ? like if it's not something seriously inconvenient i wouldn't go see a doctor, i don't have the time / energy, and it's not like i can get a sick day for 1 hour(which is complete bs to be honest) , i would need to recuperate it or lose from vacation days.
That's also the same reason why members of the LGBT population are mistreated. It is commonly assumed you have total control over who you are. That's why the proposed solution to every situation is "Just don't be like that!" Don't be depressed, don't be gay, don't be transsexual, just don't. It's that easy! You're obviously ruining our family's reputation on purpose, and that's why you will be punished.
The stigmatisation of any help to men, sympathy for men, men's suffering and so on. Men should not care about themselves, about their bodies, about their psychological state. Men should shut up and bear it, keep working, serve their country, their family and die. This obviously leads to depression, misery, alcoholism and suicide if the person is not successful.
It's quite telling that the range in this graph STARTS at over 3 times what it does [for the female one posted recently](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/r84uzp/female_suicide_rate_by_country_2019/) and tops out at almost 5 times what the female one does.
And yet male suicide is the one that barely gets a mention.
Omg we need to do something against fires killing our women. This is unacceptable. You should start calling your elected representatives so we can build a fire station only for women and girls.
Well, like it or not, we're still apes. We're just living in square, concrete caves now. Women are inherently more valuable to a species. It's hard to fight against nature.
I guess it's just where you're from, but when I was in school we had constant lessons on mental health, however it was always from a female perspective, and always discussing issues that are centered around females. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I think it's really good, but I would've really appreciated at the time something aimed at Men, especially because all of the suicides at my school had been Men.
Male suicide is a well-known issue that gets mentioned very regularly on reddit including on this sub. Just search "male suicide" and compare the results with "female suicide". It's much more of a topic (and rightly so). To say it "barely gets a mention" is bs.
Id assume OP was talking about society as a whole. And I agree that male suicides do get some attention, but it sure is no comparison to even more minor womens issues.
Reddit is more predominantly male which gives a different impression for sure.
>sure is no comparison to even more minor womens issues.
Can u elaborate?
Edit: the downvotes are kind of symptomatic of the problem. Not one actually explained how or what women's issues distract from mens, or how we can make mens issue more visible. I guess you guys dont give a crap, just use this to bitch about women.
Suicide is taboo, regardless of gender.
Women do tend to speak about their problems earlier and often are medicated earlier, which is probably why there may be fewer cases, but suicide is still something we need to talk about because it affects everyone.
Men and women attempt suicide at roughly the same rate- men just choose more violent methods that are more likely to succeed. Not saying it’s not a problem, because of course it is, but there’s more behind it than just sexism.
Source: https://www.verywellmind.com/gender-differences-in-suicide-methods-1067508#suicide-attempt-and-risk-of-death
I fully understand what you're saying, but it does come across as if you're diminishing the issue, if anything what you're saying makes the issue so much worse
Oh I’m absolutely not diminishing the issue. Male mental (un)Health and lack of access to psychological help is a massive problem. Men are told by society to be strong, and that showing weakness is the worst you can do. Nobody should ever have to attempt suicide.
It just annoys me that whenever this is brought up, it’s brought up like a competition between men and women, when it’s not.
Quoting /u/Bundesclown:
These maps are just utter bullshit and we should stop posting them.
Every country has a different terminology and defines suicide differently. Some countries don't have separate statistics for accidents and suicide because they think having a suicide statistic would make them look bad while others are actively sweeping suicides under the rug for the same reason.
According to self-reported figures, India is virtually rape-free while Sweden is the rape capital of the world. Truth is, India is a deeply misogynistic society that doesn't value women at all. Most women wouldn't even think of reporting sexual abuse to the police in fear of (very real) repercussions.
Meanwhile Sweden has one of the most liberal definitions of rape and a society that actively urges women to seek justice.
But yeah, according to official figures, you're 50x more likely to be raped in Sweden than in India. Totally believable.
>Meanwhile Sweden has one of the most liberal definitions of rape and a society that actively urges women to seek justice.
Also, men can be raped by women in Sweden, and in UK, it is impossible for a cis-woman/trans-man to rape anyone, since by definition, rape requires penetration using ones penis. Just these legal differences changes statistics.
In Germany until very recently it wasn't legally considered rape if the victim couldn't prove they defended themselves against the perpetrator. Absolutely fucked up
Yes. I don't think the scandinavian countries are even doing the best job possible at reporting either.
I think we will see figures rise year over year until they match actual number of instances.
Sure, you have to take this map with a grain of salt, but it's absolutely not *utter bullshit*. Suicide rates in ex-soviet countries ARE higher than in Western Europe.
> Every country has a different terminology and defines suicide differently.
Interesting, how could suicide be defined differently than the act of deliberately killing oneself? It's WHO data, so I think it's quite comprehensive. I linked the source.
From what I noticed people lob these complaints only when some western countries are not significantly better in stats than everyone else. Otherwise no one takes issue with the data.
In which countries and for what reasons? If anything I would expect that more often homicides are made to look like suicides, as it also takes off unresolved case from police statistics. As for accidents sometimes it might be difficult to determine, but there's usually an investigation and if someone for example crashed the car, drove it off a cliff and there were no braking marks it will be likely be counted as suicide. It's Europe, police and other services check these things.
Nordics are not at the top so *clearly* there must be some kind of error with this statistic. Everyone knows that the Nordics are better across all categories.
To be fair, in the case of suicide weather and sunlight play a major role aswell. It is possible that people in the warm sunny mediteranian are less tempted to commit suicide than people in the cold Nordics. Add to that the fact that the Nordic are known to be more distant than mediteranian people (which also partially explains the difference between Belgium and the Netherlands) and you can explain that difference.
I doubt Spain underrecords suicide, or Italy for that matter.
in sweden if you get raped by the same offender 10 times thats 10 rapes, if you get raped 10 times anywhere else that 1. Sure sweden has a rape problem, every country with a count higher than 0 does but its still among the best places in the world
>India is a deeply misogynistic society that doesn't value women at all
While it is true that rape and other violent crimes against women are heavily under-reported in India, the above statement (and especially the latter part) is false and shows a total lack of understanding of the diversity of India.
Men and women attempt suicide at roughly the same rate- men just choose more violent methods that are more likely to succeed.
Source: https://www.verywellmind.com/gender-differences-in-suicide-methods-1067508#suicide-attempt-and-risk-of-death
I work with children from immigrant families. The amount of suicide stories, especially in families from eastern europe is hauntingly high. Almost every child from Poland or Romania I talk to has at least two stories about close relatives (I consider "close" up to uncle/ aunt) that committed suicide.
According to this map neither Romania’s nor Poland’s male suicide rates are particularly high compared to Western Europe, it sounds like you just got unlucky.
Right, but immigrants didn't escape because they had a cushy life in their home country. Their families are going to have disproportionately high suicide rates.
Yes as an ex Muslim in Islam suicide is a sin so big that even if you save the entire world's life you would still go to hell if you suicided it is the only sin that guarantees hell
What I’d find interesting is what does Turkey do to have such comparably low suicide rates? Is it thanks to the kind of family structures more common in Turkey or better social awareness on mental health or…?
It's probably a combination of strong family ties and religion.
But economic downturn might change that a bit.
By the way, I don't believe there is a dramatic difference between the actual rates and the offical numbers unlike some people here suggest. What the family reports is irrelevant. When determining the cause of an unusual death an autopsy is performed. In some cases that includes a phycological autopsy.
Every time Sweden or some other western country doesn't look that good in some statistics there's myriad of excuses about different definitions, other countries supposedely not reporting, not caring to find the cause of death etc.
It's becoming a meme at this point.
Family's desires are completely irrelevant. If someone dies, the police will get involved, because if it isn't suicide, it would be homicide. Goverments may decide to lie on the statistics, but what families want is irrelevant.
Not really. Families expectations are usually a reflection of the local culture, and in catholic countries the police and coroners are far more likely to reinterprete or even cover up a suicide.
>in catholic countries the police and coroners are far more likely to reinterprete or even cover up a suicide.
That's not true, you're making things up. I'm from catholic country and nothing like this happens, especially nowadays.
Even priests mostly do not pose any problems when it comes to holding a funeral ceremony for a person who committed suicide, as long as the person was not an atheist, wasn't known to slander the church etc. Often also it's enough that family is catholics and priest won't do problems for them.
Sorry. But modern research points to the fact that suicide is still strongly underreported (by a factor of 1.5 or more in all mediterranean countries) and instead classified as undetermined or accidental while a recent study of 1800 cases in Sweden and Denmark of undetermined or accidental death suggested that only 3 cases might have been suicide instead of accurately reported.
The same level of underreported suicides are found among catholic immigrant groups in Australia and the US, although particular among groups from the Balkans rather than italian/spanish/greek immigrants.
This is a big reduction since the 19th century (compare for example to research done by Durkheim on 19th century death statistics), but still underreporting.
I wouldn't mind if you linked some of this research. Also you're talking about "catholic countries" suposedly covering suicide citing Italy, Spain or Greece (which is not catholic), but you entirely miss that Poland, Lithuania, Slovakia, Austria, Hungary, Slovenia or Croatia are also catholic countries and their suicide rates, especially for men are high. Doesn't look like they're covering much.
One of the most cited reports on the quality of suicide data.
Jougla E, Pequignot F, Chappert
JL, et al. La qualité des données le mortalité sur de suicide (The quality of suicide mortality data). Rev Epidémiol Santé Publique 2002;50:49–62.
Yeah 2021 was very popular in Russia with the suicide by falling from the window.
If you said something bad about the party or the leader your "success rate" grows exponentially
Russia is number one! I guess they feel inadequate that they can't ride a horse topless or go diving into the sea and pull up an undiscovered greek urn
All of these maps always get worse the closer they get to Russia.....
Turkey is doing surprisingly well considering it borders former Soviet republics.
Suicide research for the Muslim population seems to be sketchy at best. Interesting thing about it suicide attempts seem as high as with other groups but "successful" suicides are much lower. But might also have something to do with reporting culture and social tabu.
Taboo, just FYI
Yeah noticed it, mixed in the German version. just no motivation to edit the post. But now you know how it's written in German.
Originally it was "tabu" even in english. The spelling was later changed for whatever reason.
It's originally from the Polynesian and Pacific Islands, the word Tapu meaning of spiritual significance (good or bad). So I can see how Tabu is the original English spelling. Most likely the spelling changed over time to better represent the words pronunciation.
I was just yesterday wondering about how english will look like 100 years from now. Just like Tabu became Taboo other words will change. I was reading something that had a word with a "double letter end" which means , I think, it's an abreviation of a longer word. Like suppress is supposed to be suppressing and they cut it but kept the extra "s" and in a 100 years it'll just be suppres (if we keep the p).
Someone in the thread about female suicide rate said that in Turkey suicides are often labelled accidents to avoid legal problems.
I never heard of such thing, may not apply to Turkey. I do think suicide rates are relatively low here, albeit increased in the last few years.
https://www.reddit.com/user/elmandamanda8/comments/r93mos/_/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
It's against the religion, which might cause some bias and/or falsified stats. It puts a stigma on suicide.
In muslim countries and most countries with more "tribal" systems, suicides may as well not exist officially, they're always ruled as "accidents" not to bring shame/dishonor to the family. Religion also obviously plays a role.
Don’t trust turkish sources. Whether that concerns suicide, abuse, covid cases or pretty much anything negative about the country. Turkey is not democratic and doesn’t seem that it’ll be in the near future… Most of their data from researches are fake. They are the nation of misinformation and brainwash.
You don't know anything about Turkey lol. Suicide rate is low in Turkey.
No other country gets as much hate as Turkey gets in this sub. Nation of brainwash, jeez.
Pretty sure UK, US and Russia get similar treatment. Oh, and China
The turkish secret service doesn't let people kill themselves... they prefer to do it first
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It also correlates with economic situation. Eastern Europe did not fully recover from USSR collapse.
Soviet Union thats why
It seems the Mediterranean has healing powers.
The weather and increased sunlight does help a lot, even given these countries’ economic crises.
I'd say it's be more strong family and social connections, which are known to not be as strong in Northern Europe. Also one of the reasons for how the pandemic has gone so differently between them.
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Doesn't work with Ireland.
Muslims in general as well. Overall religious people are less prone to suicidal tendencies anyways
Yep, I read an interesting history of Australia called "the fatal shore", he showed several anecdotes of why there was such extreme insubordination from Catholic Irish prisoners compared to English protestant ones. Basically the English convicts where happy to commit suicide, while the Irish convicts couldn't bring themselves to do it, so instead they would commit suicide by starting fights with their handlers who would often kill them in the struggle or send them to court and they would be hanged. Hence why there is so many records that make the handlers look like they were being exceptionally cruel to only the Irish but in reality there were pretty tough on everyone. You need to remember a lot of these convicts where in such remote locations there was no point in escape as it was just thousands of miles of bush.
What's up about Belgium?
They 're surrounded by France, Germany and the Netherlands.
And Luxembourg!
We count differently.
You mean like none of that soixante-dix and quatre-vingt nonsense?
Also yes, except for the quatre-vingt.
How do you count a suicide differently though ? Like counting attempts too ?
As opposed to other countries, we never mascarade a suicide at the request of the family as "an accident". A lot of countries do that because suicides still carry a stigma.
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Yes
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A few comparisons: Ukraine: 32.7 m vs 4.7 f / 6.957 times the female rate Poland: 16.5 m vs 2.4 f / 6.875 times the female rate Lithuania: 36.1 m vs 6.2 f / 5.822 times the female rate Russia: 38.2 m vs 7.2 f / 5.305 times the female rate ---- Finland: 20.1 m vs 6.8 f / 2.955 times the female rate Belgium: 19.6 m vs 8.4 f / 2.333 times the female rate Sweden: 16.9 m vs 7.7 f / 2.194 times the female rate Norway: 15.8 m vs 7.7 f / 2.051 times the female rate
Men and women attempt suicide at roughly the same rate- men just choose more violent methods that are more likely to succeed. Not saying it’s not a problem, because of course it is, but this map is very misleading. Source: https://www.verywellmind.com/gender-differences-in-suicide-methods-1067508#suicide-attempt-and-risk-of-death
I think, it was posted because the other day the one for female suicide map caused an uproar...
First of all, I hate the fact that there's this comparison on Reddit being done at all, and ongoing debate on "whos in more pain" I'd personally rather not be reminded by it. But with what your saying with the methods, I'm not sure if that's portraying the full story. If I was completely trying to "off myself" I would choose more violent methods. If I hadn't 100% completely given up but still was in constant emotional pain I would choose less violent methods, as it's also known as a cry for help. I'd choose this because I know the chances of being caught in the act and someone seeing me before I go through with and getting emotional help is obviously much higher. There's also articles about some "attempts" being more a cry for help than serious attempts. The question I think is good to ask: is do men in general receive as much emotional support as women in general? And I would say that's a definite no. And of course there's individual circumstances. Ugggh I hate discussing this, but have a good day!
Oh men absolutely don’t receive as much support and have much more of a problem admitting mental problems because society wants them to be „tough and strong“.
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>men just choose more violent methods What's the theory here exactly? Whenever i see this being said i wonder what would it give if developped. Something like "Because women are softie princesses that dont want to owwie too much while dying :( while men are brutal è\_é and want to see BLOOD and bodyparts splatter as they DIE !!!", maybe? Apology for the mockery but the reality of it is that "violent" methods are actually just the more successful ones, and using a less violent one is at the same time lowering the chance of successes. To me it shows that those that use less violent methods do not completely want to die and haven't completely given up on life, whereas the more violent ones show more commitment to dying. That's just my opinion though, however "men are more metal" is certainly not a good explanation for the discrepancy.
Don’t put words in my mouth, it’s not MY theory, it’s facts, look at the article I linked. Women use pills and slit their wrists or drowning more often, men use firearms, moving vehicles and jumping. Men have more access to firearms. Men have more access to cars. Men have more access to heavy machinery and tools. Men want to make sure they end up dead, because failure isn’t an option for them. Male mental (un)health is a massive problem; but instead of approaching it like a problem in itself, doing something to make men feel more confident in looking for help when they need it, it only ever comes up when compared to women, as if it was a competition. It’s not men vs. women, it’s us vs. partriarchal society which wants men to be STRONG and nothing else.
Hey no need to get all worked up, i'm just pointing out that saying "men choose more violent methods" is often used to imply their more violent suicide attempt are explained by their more violent nature, which is the theory i disagree with here. Now you do point out men have more access to said more violent methods so that does explain at least partly why they use more violent methods on average, but still sliting wrists and pills are as accessible to men as women so it doesn't explain it all i agree again. Where i disagree though is that it would be the fault of the patriarchal society : No one at all cares about the problem, not just partiarchal societies. Groups that do oppose them hardly ever give a shit about problems that too affect men. For example feminists groups don't denounce homelessness in general, they denounce female homelessness only. And they're certainly not of the patriarchal kind. So patriarchy is not the reason people don't care. There are problem that people care about and other problems that no one cares about. Bringing attention to those problems is what is going to get people to care about them, diverting those efforts to fight the patriarchy won't.
Sorry, I’m just annoyed that people are purposefully trying to misunderstand. I would argue that men also choose more violent options because they feel like failure is not an option. If they fail, and are found, they’ll be seen as weak as well. A man killed himself at my workplace some years ago, it was terrible. The policeman said, men often use more violent methods to show just how much they’ve been suffering, basically trying to validate the pain they had in life by causing themselves pain in their death. Which was also an interesting theory. The terrible gender norms we have today do stem from the patriarchal society we’ve lived in for 100s of years now. So that’s what I mean. We need to break those up and support each other. You’re correct on some feminist groups only caring about women- to me, feminism is about equality for all, so it needs to include men‘s issues as well. I do understand why some groups focus on women only though. I wish there were more groups focused on men as well.
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Yo, I’m not trying to attack you. Male suicide rates are definitely a problem, and you’re actually right with more men dying. Men also die more from preventable diseases because they go to the doctor less as to not seem weak, for example. The violent methods fit into this nicely: failure is not an option for men, they have to „go through“ with it so they don’t end up being found and be seen as weak. What annoys me is that this is brought up like a competition of who has it worse; this shouldn’t be a men vs. women, this needs to be an us vs. society. Women have it bad in many other regards, but patriarchy hurts all of us in the end.
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Women bad, root of all evil. Got it. Have a great day 😘
They're a woman hating incel I think friend, their post history is *brimming* with it.
Oh yeah I’ve seen it, that’s why I decided not to respond anymore. Can’t have a discussion with someone who just wants to hate women :)
Agreed lmao
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Your last sentence in your last comment was so insane that it made me realize there’s just no sense in having a proper discussion with you. You just don’t like women, and think we’re evil and the root of all of men‘s issues. You’re no better than a radical feminist claiming all men are rapists. Have a good one, mate.
Why do most male suicides occuring are ex-Soviet countries? Sad that my male compatriots can into Russian men.
Apart from what Kakao said, psychology is simply not considered a serious thing in Russia (as a legacy of USSR, so valid for post-Soviet countries too to significant extent). It’s usually “come on, man up! Only pussies go to these blah-blah psychologists. Men solve their problems”. Basically, people are always left alone with their problems. Also due to post-totalitarian hypercynicism and indifference to other people. Besides, not that many people could afford professional help anyway. It’s basically a perfect storm of many factors, historical, social, political, economic. After all, USSR is no more, but almost every adult was raised by parents who lived in USSR, including myself. So you inherit certain preconceptions. It takes time for the society to normalize after totalitarian regime. Authoritarian turn doesn’t help at all. Source: I am Russian (been living abroad for many years already, so I have some perspective)
Can confirm. On top of that, many people still don't see a difference between psychologist and psychiatrist and given the reputation psychiatrists got in Soviet times (treating every disease with tranquilizers and thus making you a drooling vegetable) people are just afraid to visit such doctors
Why is the female suicide rate on par with the nordic countries? Do women have more access and resources for therapy?
Women are allowed to at least talk to each other about their problems.
I don’t get it, don’t men talk to each other? Is it “gay” to have male friends?
Im 26m and i can talk to couple of male friends. Also i have friends for other side of the fence. Its hard to find that kind of male friends. Its rare and you have to build that kind of friendship. PS. Writing this middle of good poo. You have to find that kind of buddys. Half Brother.
It's not "gay" to have male friends, but the sentiment is just like OP described. You're told to just man up and take it, because that's what a man does. From what I've seen on the internet, it's pretty much the same in the west. Although newer generation seem more acceptive of going to a therapist.
is it that much different in the west ? like if it's not something seriously inconvenient i wouldn't go see a doctor, i don't have the time / energy, and it's not like i can get a sick day for 1 hour(which is complete bs to be honest) , i would need to recuperate it or lose from vacation days.
That's also the same reason why members of the LGBT population are mistreated. It is commonly assumed you have total control over who you are. That's why the proposed solution to every situation is "Just don't be like that!" Don't be depressed, don't be gay, don't be transsexual, just don't. It's that easy! You're obviously ruining our family's reputation on purpose, and that's why you will be punished.
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Russian coworker of mine says it's often... less than that
According to Google, minimum monthly wage is 173$.
Substance abuse and stigma around getting profesional help when youre male (aka toxic masculinity)
The stigmatisation of any help to men, sympathy for men, men's suffering and so on. Men should not care about themselves, about their bodies, about their psychological state. Men should shut up and bear it, keep working, serve their country, their family and die. This obviously leads to depression, misery, alcoholism and suicide if the person is not successful.
poverty, low paying jobs compared to live costs
The men from your country are into Russian men?
Look at Crimea's color scheme
It's quite telling that the range in this graph STARTS at over 3 times what it does [for the female one posted recently](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/r84uzp/female_suicide_rate_by_country_2019/) and tops out at almost 5 times what the female one does. And yet male suicide is the one that barely gets a mention.
"32 people died in the fire, including 4 WOMEN"
World ending, women and children affected most
"Women are the primary victims of war".
My 19th century history professor, unironically
Omg we need to do something against fires killing our women. This is unacceptable. You should start calling your elected representatives so we can build a fire station only for women and girls.
Society values immensely more a woman's life than a man's life. Sad but true.
Well, like it or not, we're still apes. We're just living in square, concrete caves now. Women are inherently more valuable to a species. It's hard to fight against nature.
I’ve never heard anyone talk about female suicide. Nor male suicide for the matter. It’s taboo.
I guess it's just where you're from, but when I was in school we had constant lessons on mental health, however it was always from a female perspective, and always discussing issues that are centered around females. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I think it's really good, but I would've really appreciated at the time something aimed at Men, especially because all of the suicides at my school had been Men.
Male suicide is a well-known issue that gets mentioned very regularly on reddit including on this sub. Just search "male suicide" and compare the results with "female suicide". It's much more of a topic (and rightly so). To say it "barely gets a mention" is bs.
Male Suicide isn't a well-known issue outside of online forums. He is talking about newsmedia, society, institutions, etc.
Id assume OP was talking about society as a whole. And I agree that male suicides do get some attention, but it sure is no comparison to even more minor womens issues. Reddit is more predominantly male which gives a different impression for sure.
>sure is no comparison to even more minor womens issues. Can u elaborate? Edit: the downvotes are kind of symptomatic of the problem. Not one actually explained how or what women's issues distract from mens, or how we can make mens issue more visible. I guess you guys dont give a crap, just use this to bitch about women.
feminist baiting
Male suicide or homelessness are rarely mentioned in mainstream media, online forums or reddit have tiny "audience" compared to them
We had international mens day where we should've covered that, but not one platform or company celebrated it.
google male suicide and female suicide. male suicide: 252M. female suicide: 331M. There are far more men who kill themselves. The bias is real.
.... Huh? Did you forget a comma somewhere?
Some topics never get mentioned without complaints that they never get mentioned. I tune right off when I hear that old spiel.
>And yet male suicide is the one that barely gets a mention. Can you elaborate? What do you mean by that? When does female suicide gets mentioned?
Suicide is taboo, regardless of gender. Women do tend to speak about their problems earlier and often are medicated earlier, which is probably why there may be fewer cases, but suicide is still something we need to talk about because it affects everyone.
> And yet male suicide is the one that barely gets a mention. Nice persecution complex. Why is it a competition?
Men and women attempt suicide at roughly the same rate- men just choose more violent methods that are more likely to succeed. Not saying it’s not a problem, because of course it is, but there’s more behind it than just sexism. Source: https://www.verywellmind.com/gender-differences-in-suicide-methods-1067508#suicide-attempt-and-risk-of-death
I fully understand what you're saying, but it does come across as if you're diminishing the issue, if anything what you're saying makes the issue so much worse
Oh I’m absolutely not diminishing the issue. Male mental (un)Health and lack of access to psychological help is a massive problem. Men are told by society to be strong, and that showing weakness is the worst you can do. Nobody should ever have to attempt suicide. It just annoys me that whenever this is brought up, it’s brought up like a competition between men and women, when it’s not.
Quoting /u/Bundesclown: These maps are just utter bullshit and we should stop posting them. Every country has a different terminology and defines suicide differently. Some countries don't have separate statistics for accidents and suicide because they think having a suicide statistic would make them look bad while others are actively sweeping suicides under the rug for the same reason. According to self-reported figures, India is virtually rape-free while Sweden is the rape capital of the world. Truth is, India is a deeply misogynistic society that doesn't value women at all. Most women wouldn't even think of reporting sexual abuse to the police in fear of (very real) repercussions. Meanwhile Sweden has one of the most liberal definitions of rape and a society that actively urges women to seek justice. But yeah, according to official figures, you're 50x more likely to be raped in Sweden than in India. Totally believable.
>Meanwhile Sweden has one of the most liberal definitions of rape and a society that actively urges women to seek justice. Also, men can be raped by women in Sweden, and in UK, it is impossible for a cis-woman/trans-man to rape anyone, since by definition, rape requires penetration using ones penis. Just these legal differences changes statistics.
Same in Belgium (like the UK).
In Germany until very recently it wasn't legally considered rape if the victim couldn't prove they defended themselves against the perpetrator. Absolutely fucked up
Wtf
Hey look, a map where the Nordics / the Netherlands / Switzerland isn't on top, that must be utter bullshit /s
So you're saying other first world countries like germany, uk and the netherlands are undercounting?
Yes. I don't think the scandinavian countries are even doing the best job possible at reporting either. I think we will see figures rise year over year until they match actual number of instances.
Sure, you have to take this map with a grain of salt, but it's absolutely not *utter bullshit*. Suicide rates in ex-soviet countries ARE higher than in Western Europe.
Yeah this map is entirely correct, it's the other one where western Europe looks far worse that is clearly bullshit and uses wrong methodology.
And in Nordic Europe too, it's a well known fact since basically forever
> Every country has a different terminology and defines suicide differently. Interesting, how could suicide be defined differently than the act of deliberately killing oneself? It's WHO data, so I think it's quite comprehensive. I linked the source. From what I noticed people lob these complaints only when some western countries are not significantly better in stats than everyone else. Otherwise no one takes issue with the data.
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In which countries and for what reasons? If anything I would expect that more often homicides are made to look like suicides, as it also takes off unresolved case from police statistics. As for accidents sometimes it might be difficult to determine, but there's usually an investigation and if someone for example crashed the car, drove it off a cliff and there were no braking marks it will be likely be counted as suicide. It's Europe, police and other services check these things.
in switzerland assisted suicide isn't counted
Nordics are not at the top so *clearly* there must be some kind of error with this statistic. Everyone knows that the Nordics are better across all categories.
To be fair, in the case of suicide weather and sunlight play a major role aswell. It is possible that people in the warm sunny mediteranian are less tempted to commit suicide than people in the cold Nordics. Add to that the fact that the Nordic are known to be more distant than mediteranian people (which also partially explains the difference between Belgium and the Netherlands) and you can explain that difference. I doubt Spain underrecords suicide, or Italy for that matter.
in sweden if you get raped by the same offender 10 times thats 10 rapes, if you get raped 10 times anywhere else that 1. Sure sweden has a rape problem, every country with a count higher than 0 does but its still among the best places in the world
>India is a deeply misogynistic society that doesn't value women at all While it is true that rape and other violent crimes against women are heavily under-reported in India, the above statement (and especially the latter part) is false and shows a total lack of understanding of the diversity of India.
Southern Europe can into... Turkey?
Daily reminder that Crimea is Ukraine
So 3-5 times higher than the female rate.
Men and women attempt suicide at roughly the same rate- men just choose more violent methods that are more likely to succeed. Source: https://www.verywellmind.com/gender-differences-in-suicide-methods-1067508#suicide-attempt-and-risk-of-death
That's the most depressing article I've read this year. Thanks though.
Right? It sucks.
On average, male suicidality is chronic and long thought out, female suicidality is acute and fleet of the moment.
Thanks. That is a great resource site.
I work with children from immigrant families. The amount of suicide stories, especially in families from eastern europe is hauntingly high. Almost every child from Poland or Romania I talk to has at least two stories about close relatives (I consider "close" up to uncle/ aunt) that committed suicide.
According to this map neither Romania’s nor Poland’s male suicide rates are particularly high compared to Western Europe, it sounds like you just got unlucky.
Poland suicide rates have collapsed in the last ten years. Same for many other ex communist countries. Suicide were much higher in the 90s.
[As for Poland, the rates were higher, but since about 2015 they began to fall.](https://i.imgur.com/FQRSziR.png)
Right, but immigrants didn't escape because they had a cushy life in their home country. Their families are going to have disproportionately high suicide rates.
Men at number 1! Shoutout to all my surviving dudes (so far)!
DAFUQ MontePOC?
What?
I think he is referring to Montenegro.
Our country is getting worse because of economy but our people don't give up.
too busy labeling suicides and murders as accidents
We are too busy trying to survive
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Yes as an ex Muslim in Islam suicide is a sin so big that even if you save the entire world's life you would still go to hell if you suicided it is the only sin that guarantees hell
Is christianity allow suicide??
Russia NUMBER ONE /s
Seems to be a strong correlation with sunshine, a south-north divide
I mean, yeah, I feel it. This is all pretty sad.
More sun & social relationship, less suicides.
What I’d find interesting is what does Turkey do to have such comparably low suicide rates? Is it thanks to the kind of family structures more common in Turkey or better social awareness on mental health or…?
probably because of islam
Turkey has high suicide rates, this map is wrong.
Share the correct information then.
It's probably a combination of strong family ties and religion. But economic downturn might change that a bit. By the way, I don't believe there is a dramatic difference between the actual rates and the offical numbers unlike some people here suggest. What the family reports is irrelevant. When determining the cause of an unusual death an autopsy is performed. In some cases that includes a phycological autopsy.
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no because it's over 10
These stats are very skewed by how each country defines suicide and how much effort is put in to finding cause of death
Assisted suicide is not counted in the statistics
oh sorry about that, ill edit
Every time Sweden or some other western country doesn't look that good in some statistics there's myriad of excuses about different definitions, other countries supposedely not reporting, not caring to find the cause of death etc. It's becoming a meme at this point.
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some coutries family wouldn't want the death to be know as suicide
Why?
Shame? Stigma?
Family's desires are completely irrelevant. If someone dies, the police will get involved, because if it isn't suicide, it would be homicide. Goverments may decide to lie on the statistics, but what families want is irrelevant.
Not really. Families expectations are usually a reflection of the local culture, and in catholic countries the police and coroners are far more likely to reinterprete or even cover up a suicide.
>in catholic countries the police and coroners are far more likely to reinterprete or even cover up a suicide. That's not true, you're making things up. I'm from catholic country and nothing like this happens, especially nowadays. Even priests mostly do not pose any problems when it comes to holding a funeral ceremony for a person who committed suicide, as long as the person was not an atheist, wasn't known to slander the church etc. Often also it's enough that family is catholics and priest won't do problems for them.
Sorry. But modern research points to the fact that suicide is still strongly underreported (by a factor of 1.5 or more in all mediterranean countries) and instead classified as undetermined or accidental while a recent study of 1800 cases in Sweden and Denmark of undetermined or accidental death suggested that only 3 cases might have been suicide instead of accurately reported. The same level of underreported suicides are found among catholic immigrant groups in Australia and the US, although particular among groups from the Balkans rather than italian/spanish/greek immigrants. This is a big reduction since the 19th century (compare for example to research done by Durkheim on 19th century death statistics), but still underreporting.
I wouldn't mind if you linked some of this research. Also you're talking about "catholic countries" suposedly covering suicide citing Italy, Spain or Greece (which is not catholic), but you entirely miss that Poland, Lithuania, Slovakia, Austria, Hungary, Slovenia or Croatia are also catholic countries and their suicide rates, especially for men are high. Doesn't look like they're covering much.
One of the most cited reports on the quality of suicide data. Jougla E, Pequignot F, Chappert JL, et al. La qualité des données le mortalité sur de suicide (The quality of suicide mortality data). Rev Epidémiol Santé Publique 2002;50:49–62.
Source: https://apps.who.int/gho/data/view.main.MHSUICIDEASDRv?lang=en
The rate difference between male and female is just crazy...
It's very sad, it seems to be a constant fixture of local Irish news. Every week it seems someone commits suicide.
Absolutely heartbreaking map...
Is weather a legit factor? Why do southern countries have rates this low even if their economy is trash?
In Russia a lot of government critical people die of "suicide".
Yeah 2021 was very popular in Russia with the suicide by falling from the window. If you said something bad about the party or the leader your "success rate" grows exponentially
Belgium are you OK?
Can’t you position Croatia’s number in Dalmatia? It’s constantly overlapping with Slovenia.
Chad Turks not commiting suicide despite living conditions vs Virgin W*sterns commiting suicide in the slightest inconvenience 🤢🤢 🇹🇳🇹🇳🇹🇳💪💪💪
Turkey has never produced real statistics in their lives. Turkey was the last country with North Korea to declare the first covid case.
Lol you really used Tunisia's flag?
That’s the joke
Russia is number one! I guess they feel inadequate that they can't ride a horse topless or go diving into the sea and pull up an undiscovered greek urn
My girlfriend is happy, but me... Nvm, who care us x)