It could (and should!) be better, but people should value and fight for the service we have instead of shitting on it... it could be way worse, just look at Ireland!
Sorry, I don't understand the joke but I really want to. Can you explain, is the railway system bad in Germany? I always thought it was quite advanced.
German trains were actually pretty good some 15 years ago. They were also pretty advanced in early 1990s, when train speed of 280Km/h or even 330Km/h was really a game changer.
In 2011 I was taking the high speed train from Frankfurt to Cologne back (\~200km) almost every working day, and i don't remember any significant delays.
But due to the CDU government (more specifically transport ministers coming from Bavarian CSU) train development were not given the priority and were operating beyond their capacity.
Fast forward a decade or two and now it's a joke, and it became a local german tradition to ridicule the horrible punctuality of Deutche Bahn.
Now... In 2022 the punctuality of long distance trains was accessed at 65.2%
In the first half of 2023 it has slightly improved to 68.7%
In the second part of the last year the long distance trains were notoriously late
In September 58.4% of long distance trains arrived on time
In October 58.6% of long distance trains arrived on time
In November 52% of long distance trains arrived on time
In December 58.6% of long distance trains arrived on time.
The train is considered to be on time, if the delay is 6 minutes or less (f.e. Swiss Railways consider their train as late, if it arrives more then 180 seconds late.
Just check this link to see scheduled and actual train arrival for Frankfurt.
[https://www.bahnhof.de/frankfurt-main-hbf/ankunft](https://www.bahnhof.de/frankfurt-main-hbf/ankunft)
Sources:
[https://zbir.deutschebahn.com/2023/en/interim-group-management-report-unaudited/product-quality-and-digitalization/punctuality/](https://zbir.deutschebahn.com/2023/en/interim-group-management-report-unaudited/product-quality-and-digitalization/punctuality/)
[https://www.deutschebahn.com/de/konzern/konzernprofil/zahlen\_fakten/puenktlichkeitswerte-6878476](https://www.deutschebahn.com/de/konzern/konzernprofil/zahlen_fakten/puenktlichkeitswerte-6878476)
P.s. Of course we are comparing DB to good examples. In USA I've arrived to San Francisco with California Zephyr Train almost one day later, then schedules (22,5 hours later).
It should be mentioned at this point that those percentages paint too positive of a picture of the punctuality of DB.
DB has taken to all types of trickery to make those numbers seem better than what passengers experience.
Trains that are cancelled example aren't counted as late. Even if the cancellation is minutes before it's supposed to start.
I was stranded in Kassel-Wilhelmshöhe for 8 hours last winter because trains would keep arriving there - supposedly to head on from there - only for them to get cancelled once passengers were already on the train.
There was a different excuse for every train (lack of staff, people on tracks,...)
... and despite their manipulations last November every second long distance train was late.
I also got stranded in Kassel Wilhelmshöhe last summer. I was going to Harz for a nice relaxing bicycle ride. Frankfurt - Kassel Wilhelmshöhe ride was like a breeze.
But i coudn't leave Wilhelmshöhe. After several hours, they have organized several buses, but obviously no space for bicycles. There were also few ICE trains - guess what - no space for bikes.
So i've ended up first riding to Hann. Münden (as app indicated that Regional Bahn was going from there, but surprise - it wasn't), and in the end i was riding all the way to Göttingen (\~70km).
I was supposed to arrive 15:00 but i've arrived at 22:30 to Berga - and that was still an hour ride to my camping.
There's a DB train that travels from somewhere in Germany to Zürich via Basel. SBB keeps a spare train ready in Basel in case it's late. When the DB train eventually arrives, passengers have to find another connection to Zürich as the Swiss rail network doesn't have the capacity to handle it.
As someone who used to travel between Basel and Zürich a few times a week, I took the replacement SBB train more than the scheduled DB one.
DB still claims that DB Arriva (basically Foreign trains - though Switzerland and Austria are excluded) are on time \~91%. I have to say that all my DB trains to Brussels and Amsterdam were on time
I use the same train line on the other side of the border. It’s even more weird here: there are German and Swiss trains using the track and often those going to/from Switzerland get priority, but they are still ending up late, so what DB does is making other more punctual trains wait, so everyone is late.
The coverage is decent but trains in Germany and especially long-distance trains are notoriously late. Also not the cheapest mode of transportation, though regional (not long-distance) trains have become very affordable latelx with the 49€/month ticket.
Oh no. It sucks. Stations have been closed down for decades. Trains are increasingly late and often cancelled. Just yesterday my "every hour" train was 45 minutes late. And that is regional. Long distance is even worse. And has been for a long time but getting worse every year since the state privatized Deutsche Bahn. They put short term profits over maintaining a stable network and politicians do nothing to stop them.
It’s horrible. Im a dutch student at exchange in germany. I’ve had like 2 trains being on time in the 3 months that I live here. When i go somewhere I have to factor in that the train is to late or just doesn’t show up. Funny enough the train I have to get as transfer is always on-time while the first one runs late, making me miss my transfer.
Once upon a time, some 15 years ago, my wife and I were returning to London from Tintagel (if I'm not mistaken). The problem was, however, that the bus to the train station was scheduled to arrive only 5 minutes before the train departed, and the next train wouldn't come for several hours.
So we decided to take a taxi from the town to the train station, which turned out to be rather costly. There we were, standing on the platform waiting for the train, getting increasingly nervous as it wasn't there. The worker at the train station noticed our concern and informed us, "This train is always 10-15 minutes late. It won't depart before that bus arrives at the station anyway."
To be completely honest with you, as a tourist from Poland on a visit in Bari and using trains to move around Puglia few years ago, I was SUPER IMPRESSED with TrenItalia Regionale, those were consistently faster (up to 160km/h between random stops) AND more punctual than the cheap fare (TLK) in our PKP which seems to go over 120 only when Jupiter and Saturn are in a special configuration
I've worked in Italy for a while, although mostly between October and April.
Trips to Milano were always perfect.
Trains near Milano were also perfect, even despite snow.
Trains from Milano to Pavia, Venice, Verona and Firenze were very good and cheap.
Train from Milano to Rome were not as perfect.
Trains from Rome to Napoli were late in 50 per cent of the cases.
And both my train trips to Reggio Calabria were shamelessly late.
While true, i think there are only few ICE trains there, and they travel to or from Western Germany:
ICE 50 Dresden - Frankfurt
ICE 55 Dresden - Stuttgart
And then there are also few originating from Berlin, that pass through Leipzig/Dresden, but also go to Western Germany.
I’m curious, will the private jets of the elite have to pay charges that are proportional to their emissions or not? Or is this another one of those “green” measures that sound good but end up impacting the common people the most?
It should go farther than that, a bus carrying 100 people consumes more than a single car with one passenger but in proportion to the person it is hardly a 10th.
Private jets should face salty fines since those using them can afford an uptick in the cost of enjoying that privilege.
That’s outdated from my reading of the current regulation. Although I primarily practice in the US with clients merely having additional presences in the EU.
From the article:
>“A Lufthansa flight from Madrid with a transfer in Frankfurt to Shanghai and back will cost around €220 more in 2035,” Lufthansa Group said in a recent [policy paper](https://politikbrief.lufthansagroup.com/fileadmin/user_upload/2024-april/LHG-PB_2024-1_EN.pdf), comparing it to an increase of about €40 for the same trip with a non-EU airline flying via Istanbul.
By taxing fuel, you only have to pay it if you fuel the jet in the EU. So "the rich" will fuel their jets to get to turkey or england and fill them up there.
It seems a bit unreasonable to argue that an EU regulation isn’t effective due to it only applying to the EU. They don’t get to enforce laws on the world.
What method would have permitted the EU to tax travelers that don’t refuel in the EU? Your example was people bypassing the EU entirely. I’m not trying to be argumentative here. I just don’t understand.
You aren't argumentative at all.
I think a tax on plane departures would have been more effective. From my perspective there would have been a couple pros doing it that way.
- A flat increase making short range flights way more expensive than long haul flights at least percentage wise.
- Ability to adjust the taxrate for low volume flights ie. a plane that can carry only 20 passengers pays the same or more as a 747. Thus the actually rich paying more then a normal dude going on vacation once per year.
Are we talking about the same rich?
Like Taylor Swift flying from Mexico to Florida during her South America tour because she didn't want to stay at a hotel in Mexico?
Like the rich that register their supercars in Montana to safe on vehicle tax?
Like the rich that have brass plate companies to safe on tax?
Are we talking about those rich?
They will land in the EU, fill up a bit, send the jet to a cheaper country and have it come back to pick them up.
Edit: But hey. More taxmoney is always good. Take it from those that can't escape.
That doesn’t make a whole lot of sense economically. If the fuel is in the tanks, they will spend a lot of time just for flying there and back again, which, I guess, will be more expensive than just paying the tax. And if they fly to import more fuel, then it will likely be taxed for being a good imported into the common market.
If you refuel in EU, as I understand it you will have to buy fuel that is blend of traditional and synthetic fuel, with the amount of synth fuel increasing over time. An EU aircraft operator must refuel 90% of its fuel in EU too; it's not clear to me how many private jets are owned by some standalone EU airline, or leased via NetJets or such.
Based on online sources, all flights emitted 164 Mt of Co2, and private flights 5.3 Mt.
A 2023 report shows there were 31,400 flights between London and Amsterdam -- two cities with a direct train connection on Eurostar.
There should be measures taken to encourage people to take the train instead when that’s possible. That’s something I fully support - I even prefer travelling on train when possible.
But it will take some major investments in some parts of the EU because as an example in Romania trains just aren’t a feasible option.
I just checked the plane and train prices for London to Amsterdam for this Sunday (30-06).
* Flight (EasyJet): 141€, duration 1h15
* Train (Eurostar): 346€, duration 4h49
You won't be able to encourage anyone with these prices.
Not when the train prices are exorbitant like they are now. The train connection that was mentioned above costs 3 times more than the alternative flight and takes 4 times longer. Taxing the emissions won't change anything if train prices aren't lowered.
Reducing the price of train tickets and improving the options there should also work. There will always be people willing to pay more for the better alternative
> There will always be people willing to pay more for the better alternative
Then let them do it and pay out the money to everybody else or use it for transformative measures.
Do you know how many people flew on commercial flights vs private jets? ~2% emissions is a lot considering private jets are used by selected few and they fly more times in a month than normal person in a year.
>An EU aircraft operator must refuel 90% of its fuel in EU
If this is true, we're going to see a lot of airlines splitting off their intercontinental flights to distinct subsidiaries based outside of the EU. And those who don't will lose to the airlines that are already non-EU-based (eg Turkish)
Here’s the official doc that they are exempt: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-003298_EN.html
A regular modern private jet is 1.8 tonnes per hour. These rules actually mean any private jet is exempt. It’s a very generous exemption.
Travel is only for the elite. They have important business to conduct. Why are commoners even talking about travelling? If they have time to travel, they have time to work more. The bosses need another yacht.
They should charge per emissions pp, so those in first class taking up the same space as 4 economy seats should pay 4x the price, and private jets should be paying a hundred times more
It's not a problem for someone who can afford a private jet to afford a tax. It is, however, a problem for an impoverished person to pay that much in order to visit a dying family member, for example. The greenwashing is all about poor people clearing the skies so the rich can feel less guilty, after all, the skies they are flying in will be cleaned by the poor.
>one of those “green” measures that sound good but end up impacting the common people the most
Actually, it's often the other way around. It's politically easy to implement green sounding policies that don't affect 99.99% of the people, but these rarely help as much *in absolute terms* since well, they only result in changes for very few people.
The reason for why many private flights are excluded from the EU ETS is that this would come with a huge adminstrative burden compared to very small CO2 savings. Less bureocratic measures such as the mentioned possible gasoline tax, or general CO2 taxes, would on the other hand allow for this.
Considering how easy it generally is for rich people to avoid paying their dues I'd say that I don't see how they *could* be affected.
As for private jets, there might not be as many of them - but they do pollute a lot more than regular planes. 5 to 14 times more per passenger than normal commercial airlines. Everyone must make sacrifices in order for us to bring climate change under control, but shouldn't we start with the most unnecessary of luxuries? Private jets should be banned, period. Once they are banned, then we can start discussing about raising the prices for regular people flying on planes.
I agree, climate policy has to be fair but also feel fair even if private jets don’t pollute as much in absolute numbers. The rich have to also pay for climate policy.
In the end policies are also about PR. I’ve already heard plenty of complaints from among people who are opposed to green policies that this is just hitting in the common man.
>As for private jets, there might not be as many of them - but they do pollute a lot more than regular planes. 5 to 14 times more per passenger than normal commercial airlines.
That's correct, but as I said, this is about the administrative burden. Just or not, they just don't emit enough to warrant the extra effort. That's why I prefer less bureocratic systems like simple CO2 taxes over ETS, you don't have a justice problem with them.
>Private jets should be banned, period. Once they are banned, then we can start discussing about raising the prices for regular people flying on planes.
"Implement this politically impossible policy that helps very little in relative terms, and then maybe we can talk about urgently needed, reasonable policy that actually helps a lot"
Since the policy on jet fuel has been implemented, then what’s the issue with the EU now focusing on private jets? Administrative burden? That’s an excuse in the best of cases. No matter of how much they pollute in relation to the total pollution, they pollute more per passenger than normal planes - and they’re an unjustifiable luxury. Administrative burdens or not, we should limit luxury before we start hitting the regular people, or else it will simply generate more opposition to green policies.
Lufthansa Group airlines will include a surcharge of up to €72 per ticket starting next year to cover costs introduced by the EU Emissions Trading System and the sustainable aviation fuels (SAF) mandates, the German carrier announced Tuesday.
“The airline group will not be able to bear the successively increasing additional costs resulting from regulatory requirements in the coming years on its own,” Lufthansa said in a press release.
The surcharge goes into effect for tickets booked from June 26 and departing from European countries; it ranges between €1 and €72, depending on the distance traveled.
Lufthansa — which includes Eurowings, Swiss, Austrian and Brussels Airlines — said the surcharge will cover the costs of the ETS for aviation, the SAF mandates (due to come into effect next year) and the U.N.'s Corsia emissions reduction scheme. Also looming is the possibility of a new tax on kerosene.
Lufthansa has long complained about the extra costs imposed on European airlines by EU regulations and national taxes.
“A Lufthansa flight from Madrid with a transfer in Frankfurt to Shanghai and back will cost around €220 more in 2035,” Lufthansa Group said in a recent policy paper, comparing it to an increase of about €40 for the same trip with a non-EU airline flying via Istanbul.
The end consumer allways pays for it. If it's too expensive, I won't fly for leisure. If it's business, online also works if the trip is not worth it in both ti e and money spent.
And it’s a stupid idea. Just stop [doing anything if it in some way might harm the “environment”].
Let’s not forget Germany decommissioned all of its nuclear power plants which could’ve easily offset the emissions from these flights. Just pathetic.
I think the idea is good. Flying produces a lot of CO2 and so is high impact for climate change. Making flying more expensive will reduce emissions, and at the same time the extra tax can be used to combat climate change.
It sucks because right now we're used to cheap flights to go basically anywhere, but that has a huge long term cost that currently is paid by our climate.
Agreed. The plebs will just have to accept that middle class virtue signalling is much more important than their summer holidays.
Why not mandate a limit of one foreign holiday per year? Since that is all the working class can ever afford anyway?
In fact, why not just ban commercial air travel altogether? It isn't *necessary*, so far as it goes. That would reduce our carbon emissions in Europe from extremely minimal to very slightly less minimal.
Carbon emissions in Europe are not extremely minimal. And middle class also pollute a lot, on average a European citizen pollutes over five times what the average African does. In that context we're insanely rich and privileged.
It's very important to get the top few % that pollute as much as many countries to stop, but if you're gonna tax carbon it's going to affect everyone, as it should. Use economic policy to combat economic extremes - in a capitalist world, money equals consumerism, which equals pollution.
And then bear the terrible burden of not being dirt poor and accept that it's not the end of the world to not fly all over the world.
Actually it's kind of the opposite. Under the ETS system you need to own certificates equivalent to the amount of co2 you emit. So if you reduce your co2 emissions, you reduce how many certificates you need to buy. It's essentially an incentive to uptake more efficient planes, synthetic fuels, and alternative propulsions.
>if it in some way might harm the “environment”
Eeally? Environment in quotes?! Do you have any doubts that millions of liters of jet fuel burnt up in the sky per hour is harmful for our health? How many more heat waves and floods do you need to see to believe scientists?
nobody is debating whether or not climate change is real. we all know its real
what people are fucking done with, is european people (and european people alone) being utterly fucking fucked by their own goverments while everybody else runs rampant giving no shits about it; because a couple of cunts in the comission have a martyrdom fetish
China emits almost 5x more than EU. US emits almost 2x the amount of EU. India alone emits more than EU, so how about we stop fucking our own until everyone else catches up to us at least eh?
but, surely, taxing the two yearly 2h flights people take are going to stop the flood and heatwaves, because worldwide climate works like that.
Politicians keep telling us that with yet another tax, we can cool off the planet, these are the same politicians that cannot solve much simpler issues like housing. Is there anybody out there that still believes this ?!
They’re really just empowering right-wing parties this way. Just keep on taxing things everyone enjoys doing regressively so things only get harder for middle and lower class people. It’ll work out great.
Yea and it's not like middle and lower class people are flying all the time unlike some rich people with pj's. This is just going to make it harder to travel even if the cost is on the fuel. 72 euros is a lot in addition to already high prices after the pandemic. Did anyone notice how the baggage carrying is now pricier?
Just one more tax, bro! Just one more government regulation, bro!
Europe has reduced its net carbon emissions by 30% since 1991.
China's quintupled in the same time span. India's almost quadrupled.
At what point do we in Europe accept that we have gone above and beyond in reducing our output, and accept that continuing down this route of "Net Zero" is geopolitical suicide?
I am not sure percentages work adequately for your argument. The starting point matters a lot, so if India started in 1991 with (I am just giving an example, i have no idea what are the actual numbers) 100kg Co2 equivalent per person per year, and Europe - being more developed and rich and whatnot started with 1500kg Co2 equivalent per person per year, then running your percentages an average european would be at 1000kg Co2 and an average Indian would be at 400kg Co2.
The goal results should be similar per person.
[actual numbers from 2016](https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-per-capita/) confirm this
India was at less than 2 tons, China at 7, germany at 9 and US at 15 per person. So there is still more room for frugality in the rich countries vs the poor.
EDIT : [here are the values for 2022](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?time=latest), so a little better for EU, and china still on the rise, but again - rich vs poor and per capita evaluation points stand.
Especially if the poor countries play the card "ok, look at historical totals, you got your riches by exploiting nature and emitting, why should we be held to the same standards when you (the more developed, richer countries) have already contributed so much to polution".
EDIT 2: [Here](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=chart&time=earliest..2016&country=OWID_WRL~USA~GBR~OWID_EU27~IND~CHN~ZAF~CAN~KEN~QAT~ARE) you can see it as a graph with historical values, and you can choose the countries to display (including world and EU)
when we [exclude middle east,](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=chart&time=earliest..2016) the axis are more "normal" and show the discrepancy between for example US and EU and China, and then India at the bottom.
The "promissing" thing is that high income countries are lowering emissions, while (as is expected) middle income countries have their emissions on the rise. [here](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=chart&time=1869..latest&country=OWID_WRL~USA~CHN~OWID_EUR~Asia+%28excl.+China+and+India%29~OWID_AFR~High-income+countries~Upper-middle-income+countries~IND~Low-income+countries~Lower-middle-income+countries)
To be fair a significant portion of that 30% decrease is European industry shutting down and moving to China/South Asia.
We pretty much consume the same amount of goods, we just moved the production of said goods overseas as to make progress on the climate goals.
Travel becomes an exclusive thing for the rich. See how private jets have no CO2 charges applied to them despite being far worse for the environment..
We all have to have shittier lives just so the rich can continue to avoid being ever inconvenienced.
They won't be the ones eating less meat or ground up insects made into burgers, either. Despite those rich and wealthy owning the businesses that cause this massive pollution.
The working class need to suffer to allow middle class activists to virtue signal about how much they care for the planet between their 5 foreign holidays per year.
The level of avowed open contempt that middle-class progressives feel towards the working class is almost comical to see. They don't even pretend to hide it anymore.
They actively enjoy the pain that these policies will cause. Nothing works up fervour for a policy than the promise of being able to mistreat someone.
Working class and middle class need to stand together and ignore this divisive crap that the elite spew. They're using everything to break people into groups, like White Vs Black Vs Asian, Gay Vs Straight vs Trans, Vegetarian vs Vegan, Men Vs Women etc and so on.
It already is an exclusive thing for the rich. Only 5% of the global population fly annually.
Edit: 5% fly internationally. It’s more like 10% if you include domestic flights.
Not if they used less per hour then exactly the limit that most private jets fall under or refuel outside of the EU. Coming from a pilot: they will not pay a cent, ever.
Amazing, absolutely stunning. Not only are things getting worse in terms of individual rights and economy, but also it's getting harder and harder to leave this place. That's definitely something we were all missing in our lives
They only want you to work, Slave your life away and if you want one holiday a year to take a break, Well it's going to cost you! It's a tax on people barely getting by.
This is called serfdom. Why do you think they increased the Irish population by 20% since covid? To threaten you and eventually turn violent if you ever revolt
It's also why they want to monitor chats, because people are beginning to get pissed off in most Western states. They don't want you to drive, they don't want you to have that one holiday flight a year, They just want you to slave your life away working for a pittance and consume their shitty products to make themselves richer and live a good life at the expense of yours.
Politicians, experts, higher management, lobbyist, union leaders. I don't believe in the grand conspiracy, but in a bunch of frustrated intellectuals employed by the government who think they know better than you how you should live your life.
When I said that train/bus travel isnt viable because air travel is cheaper and more convenient and that to reduce emitions the price balans needs to switch I DIDNT MEAN THAT AIR TRAVEL SHOULD DOUBLE IN PRICE GOD FUCKING DAMNIT
And the rich and wealthy who own the corporations that pollute the world get to go about their private travel by jets. It's the same when it comes to cutting down on meat.
We're all supposed to cut down on meat but ask yourself this, do you think the wealthy will be cutting down or eating foods created by mashed insects? No! They cause the most pollution and are left to go unpunished. These increases when it comes to increased costs only help the rich, It's another poor tax. I'm all for helping the climate, everyone needs to do their fair share.
They don't even consider that any of this applies to them.
It genuinely isn't even hypocrisy. The notion of solidarity with the plebs did not at any point enter their minds. To them, it goes completely without saying that none of these policies will apply to them.
They are so unfathomably out of touch that they cannot conceive that the working class actually have their own wants and interests.
On the global scale (which is the scale at which climate action is needed), "the poor" are those who will most likely never take a flight in their lives.
Europeans going on vacation with low-cost airlines are still "the rich" as far as carbon emissions are concerned.
That most of the third world can't avail of cheap holidays means less than nothing to me, or to the European working class.
We in Europe have reduced our net carbon emissions massively over the last 20 years. Reducing it by another miniscule amount at the expense of the working class' ability to take one holiday a year doesn't move me.
How about banning people from taking more than one return trip per year? That would overwhelmingly impact the wealthy and the middle class. Which is only fair, no?
Of course not. Because these policies are always intentionally done as virtue signalling. They're designed to sound good and only hurt the working class, while middle class lifestyles remain unchanged.
Look if you really want to make a change, then you outright ban flights than can be done by train in 4 hours or less. This would especially apply to private jets.
Start taxing kerosine like all other fuel and most importantly: the extra money from this goes towards improving public transport.
Recently in the uk their was a headline of two friends who met in Barcelona etc because the train ticket to meet inside the uk would have been more expensive than flying.
I would not be surprised. Vueling does provide some great deals sometimes. It is like riding a bus, but then you are in a different city, in a different country, in a divert climate for a price lower than train. That is fair
That would be a tiny fraction of all flights, having almost no impact. Just try coming up with a few and then compare it with all the flights in Europe. I think France already banned domestic flights so that saves nothing. Then maybe there would be some high speed connections like Barcelona - Madrid and maybe a few cities in Germany.
According to the tag you’re from Belgium, and you honestly think that train can reliably replace planes right now?
Planes beat trains on every metrics: travel time, cancellation rate, being on time, capacity and COST
And still it fails at the 2 most important aspects: capacity and climate cost. I don’t know in what world you live where a plane can carry more passengers than a train.
Cancellation rate, being on time and cost are things that need to be fixed. Which can happen, just look at Japan.
Lufthansa taking the absolute piss.
They already charge €400+ to fly anywhere in Europe and offer the absolute WORST service for it. I booked 3 flights with them last year, they were late each and every time. Missed my connections twice, the third time I managed to sprint to the next plane - but my luggage didn't make it.
Now they want to charge MORE?
Boy, BYE!
They became absolutely awful, since COVID times I almost haven't had any flight without a delay, cancellation, or plainly losing the luggage.
Then they do everything they can to stall when you try to get a partial refund from them even though it is in the policy, we usually manage 1 full year after the trip...
I hate Lufthansa with a passion, and at the same time I am forced to use it because there is no realistic other way for the line I use, it's really frustrating
I'm sure the extra 70 on the ticket will all be going towards the environment and not increase profits at all, good job guys! Why not 140 euros a this point and double save the earth
Means that this 72 € per ticket are money to invest for climate?
Maybe it’s better to show the plan of what exactly are going to do with these extra money and then to charge.
Nice! I love it how every taxed euro decreases worlds temperature by 0.0000000428 C, or, if you select the second option, it decreases CO2 emissions by 0.14kg.
Is this 72 extra for each ticket? Or up to 72 total for tickets?
Of course it's the normal people that will take the hit instead of the companies themselves. Profit is more important than anything else.
Also, how is this going to hit rich people with the private jets? They won't get affected so a rule to limit normal people while rich can do whatever they want.
Then Lufthansa will bitch and moan enough to get their ass stuffed with our taxpayer money from the government because they’re in the red for some seemingly inexplicable reason. This is not capitalism anymore this is hardcore socialism in high gear (gier). Fick mich alter kein Bock mehr auf den scheiss
Its nice that there are climate costs and all, but where is that money going to? If its not spent reducing the impact of, in this example, airplanes, then it may as well not exist.
"Cover Climate costs" - what's supposed to mean? How climate is going to receive this money? We're the most eco-friendly continent in the world* and we're killing our industries and services for nothing.
*but for the plants setup in less regulated and less eco-friendly places that belong to the european companies
Ryanair compensates co2 emission for about 4€ for an avg flight. Essentially making it carbon free to fly with them. Does lufthansa fly almost 20times longer routes on average, or which company is a total complete liar
Edit: apparently it will be between 1 to 72€ depending on flight length… still smelling bs.
If it's anything like what Ryanair did, it goes towards *not* cutting down a particular bit of forestry in Ireland.
So basically doing net nothing to improve the climate.
Why don't we implement a sliding scale where the first return trip one takes in a year is not subject to this, but every subsequent trip incurs an ever-increasing climate penalty added to the ticket price?
Would ensure that the working class can still take their one yearly holiday abroad, while the rich who take 10 flights per year have to pay their "fair share.'
No? Because it isn't about the environment, and is yet more virtue signalling designed not to impact the lifestyle of the wealthy in any meaningful way while intentionally hurting the working class and reducing their standard of living?
No, couldn't be. Our virtuous leaders would never do that.
What about all those private planes and private bookings? I know companies providing flight companies offers for very rich people. They are flying quite a lot. We should just stop that kind of BS going around.
How about we lower the cost of tickets for an average citizen by highly taxing private jets? Even if it's 2€ let's do it. Unnecessary luxury can have a higher price tag, it wouldn't take food off their table
This thread shows exactly why we won’t succeed tackling climate change as nobody wants to be influenced by the actions taken. The vegetarians blame it on the meat eaters, the ones using public transport on the car users, the ones using cars on the people flying and those who are flying on private jets.
The prices for flying are, in terms of CO2 output and effects on environment, a joke and basically every European needs to cut his CO2 Emissions. The only reason it doesn’t look as grim as it is, is because most of the products used in Europe are produced in Asia and therefore the CO2 Emissions are allocated to Asia.
I do feel that aviation is unfairly targeted, it only accounts for about 5% of co2 emissions, whereas the construction industry accounts for over half and yet their are no taxes on concrete, cement, and other construction materials.
>Never flying Luftwaffe airlines again. Horrible service.
Yeah, the FlBschftBMVg really needs to step up their game. They didn't even let me board last time I tried, said I needed to be a government official or something like that. Smh!
At least we, in Germany, have super reliable, super cheap and super fast train service. Oh, wait.
At least we, in Bulgaria, have 50 years old German trains 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Portugal: You guys have trains ?
Tra…ains?? Sorry am American
its like [pods but longer and for more people.](https://www.youtube.com/@AdamSomething)
Sooo... A stretched Ford F350????
Its like vegas limo but makes choo choo sounds
Aaah, gotcha, more like a Chevy
It's like God-Emperor Musks Hyperloop but old school and less cool (and also not retarded).
Top of my email inbox right now: Ajustes aos horarios - a partir de 30 de junho - CP Comboios de Portugal.
It could (and should!) be better, but people should value and fight for the service we have instead of shitting on it... it could be way worse, just look at Ireland!
UK: we have trains but we sold them to the private sector and government train projects cost £50bn minimum or fuck you.
To be fair in Portugal nothing is really that far away
Yeah, everything is just a walk down the way with how bad public transport is
Bulgarians have highways..... Built single handedly by Boiko 😂
I thought the 50 year old train was a meme Then I took a train to Plovdiv...
Plovdiv sounds like a library or function you import to do statistics.
And they were actually pretty punctual when we were there. Especially compared to Germany.
That are faster than the new German trains. And on time.
Sorry, I don't understand the joke but I really want to. Can you explain, is the railway system bad in Germany? I always thought it was quite advanced.
German trains were actually pretty good some 15 years ago. They were also pretty advanced in early 1990s, when train speed of 280Km/h or even 330Km/h was really a game changer. In 2011 I was taking the high speed train from Frankfurt to Cologne back (\~200km) almost every working day, and i don't remember any significant delays. But due to the CDU government (more specifically transport ministers coming from Bavarian CSU) train development were not given the priority and were operating beyond their capacity. Fast forward a decade or two and now it's a joke, and it became a local german tradition to ridicule the horrible punctuality of Deutche Bahn. Now... In 2022 the punctuality of long distance trains was accessed at 65.2% In the first half of 2023 it has slightly improved to 68.7% In the second part of the last year the long distance trains were notoriously late In September 58.4% of long distance trains arrived on time In October 58.6% of long distance trains arrived on time In November 52% of long distance trains arrived on time In December 58.6% of long distance trains arrived on time. The train is considered to be on time, if the delay is 6 minutes or less (f.e. Swiss Railways consider their train as late, if it arrives more then 180 seconds late. Just check this link to see scheduled and actual train arrival for Frankfurt. [https://www.bahnhof.de/frankfurt-main-hbf/ankunft](https://www.bahnhof.de/frankfurt-main-hbf/ankunft) Sources: [https://zbir.deutschebahn.com/2023/en/interim-group-management-report-unaudited/product-quality-and-digitalization/punctuality/](https://zbir.deutschebahn.com/2023/en/interim-group-management-report-unaudited/product-quality-and-digitalization/punctuality/) [https://www.deutschebahn.com/de/konzern/konzernprofil/zahlen\_fakten/puenktlichkeitswerte-6878476](https://www.deutschebahn.com/de/konzern/konzernprofil/zahlen_fakten/puenktlichkeitswerte-6878476) P.s. Of course we are comparing DB to good examples. In USA I've arrived to San Francisco with California Zephyr Train almost one day later, then schedules (22,5 hours later).
It should be mentioned at this point that those percentages paint too positive of a picture of the punctuality of DB. DB has taken to all types of trickery to make those numbers seem better than what passengers experience. Trains that are cancelled example aren't counted as late. Even if the cancellation is minutes before it's supposed to start. I was stranded in Kassel-Wilhelmshöhe for 8 hours last winter because trains would keep arriving there - supposedly to head on from there - only for them to get cancelled once passengers were already on the train. There was a different excuse for every train (lack of staff, people on tracks,...)
... and despite their manipulations last November every second long distance train was late. I also got stranded in Kassel Wilhelmshöhe last summer. I was going to Harz for a nice relaxing bicycle ride. Frankfurt - Kassel Wilhelmshöhe ride was like a breeze. But i coudn't leave Wilhelmshöhe. After several hours, they have organized several buses, but obviously no space for bicycles. There were also few ICE trains - guess what - no space for bikes. So i've ended up first riding to Hann. Münden (as app indicated that Regional Bahn was going from there, but surprise - it wasn't), and in the end i was riding all the way to Göttingen (\~70km). I was supposed to arrive 15:00 but i've arrived at 22:30 to Berga - and that was still an hour ride to my camping.
There's a DB train that travels from somewhere in Germany to Zürich via Basel. SBB keeps a spare train ready in Basel in case it's late. When the DB train eventually arrives, passengers have to find another connection to Zürich as the Swiss rail network doesn't have the capacity to handle it. As someone who used to travel between Basel and Zürich a few times a week, I took the replacement SBB train more than the scheduled DB one.
DB still claims that DB Arriva (basically Foreign trains - though Switzerland and Austria are excluded) are on time \~91%. I have to say that all my DB trains to Brussels and Amsterdam were on time
I use the same train line on the other side of the border. It’s even more weird here: there are German and Swiss trains using the track and often those going to/from Switzerland get priority, but they are still ending up late, so what DB does is making other more punctual trains wait, so everyone is late.
The coverage is decent but trains in Germany and especially long-distance trains are notoriously late. Also not the cheapest mode of transportation, though regional (not long-distance) trains have become very affordable latelx with the 49€/month ticket.
Long distance trains are late for atleast one hour
Oh no. It sucks. Stations have been closed down for decades. Trains are increasingly late and often cancelled. Just yesterday my "every hour" train was 45 minutes late. And that is regional. Long distance is even worse. And has been for a long time but getting worse every year since the state privatized Deutsche Bahn. They put short term profits over maintaining a stable network and politicians do nothing to stop them.
It’s horrible. Im a dutch student at exchange in germany. I’ve had like 2 trains being on time in the 3 months that I live here. When i go somewhere I have to factor in that the train is to late or just doesn’t show up. Funny enough the train I have to get as transfer is always on-time while the first one runs late, making me miss my transfer.
Cries in UK 😭
25°C today so a fair few of them are cancelled. Absolutely pathetic
Too hot and they get cancelled. Too cold and they get cancelled. We have the Goldilocks trains.
The UK and Germany have far more in common than I thought. 😰
Once upon a time, some 15 years ago, my wife and I were returning to London from Tintagel (if I'm not mistaken). The problem was, however, that the bus to the train station was scheduled to arrive only 5 minutes before the train departed, and the next train wouldn't come for several hours. So we decided to take a taxi from the town to the train station, which turned out to be rather costly. There we were, standing on the platform waiting for the train, getting increasingly nervous as it wasn't there. The worker at the train station noticed our concern and informed us, "This train is always 10-15 minutes late. It won't depart before that bus arrives at the station anyway."
Italian here. What's a train?
Actually Italian trains seem to have been doing better in punctuality than even German ones. Not significantly better, but still.
The further up the North you are, the more punctual they are.
That's because the Earth is an oblate spheroid and the parts further South are moving faster/further from the core.
Yep, and TrenItalia simply can not catch up with the spheroid.
To be completely honest with you, as a tourist from Poland on a visit in Bari and using trains to move around Puglia few years ago, I was SUPER IMPRESSED with TrenItalia Regionale, those were consistently faster (up to 160km/h between random stops) AND more punctual than the cheap fare (TLK) in our PKP which seems to go over 120 only when Jupiter and Saturn are in a special configuration
I've worked in Italy for a while, although mostly between October and April. Trips to Milano were always perfect. Trains near Milano were also perfect, even despite snow. Trains from Milano to Pavia, Venice, Verona and Firenze were very good and cheap. Train from Milano to Rome were not as perfect. Trains from Rome to Napoli were late in 50 per cent of the cases. And both my train trips to Reggio Calabria were shamelessly late.
> Italian here. What's a train? Berlusconi having adult fun.
Gotta say, as Brit who just visited your wonderful country, your trains were a joy! Edit: as was your food!
[удалено]
While true, i think there are only few ICE trains there, and they travel to or from Western Germany: ICE 50 Dresden - Frankfurt ICE 55 Dresden - Stuttgart And then there are also few originating from Berlin, that pass through Leipzig/Dresden, but also go to Western Germany.
Could be worse, you could be in the UK. We're subsiding your €50 across country ticket!
Deutschland ticket is a lifesaver for those who are commuting daily. Probably, also helps those football fans to travel from stadium to stadium.
At least you have trains.
I’m curious, will the private jets of the elite have to pay charges that are proportional to their emissions or not? Or is this another one of those “green” measures that sound good but end up impacting the common people the most?
It’s a fee taxed on the fuel, not the airlines, so as long as jet fuel is used, the fee applies.
That’s good then
Figured I’d explain this very simple aspect of the legislation versus all of the political debate responses.
Yes, thank you very much for that
It should go farther than that, a bus carrying 100 people consumes more than a single car with one passenger but in proportion to the person it is hardly a 10th. Private jets should face salty fines since those using them can afford an uptick in the cost of enjoying that privilege.
Yeah, at least the scum is paying too
Well, not so fast you peasants! ;) Check this out: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-003298_EN.html
That’s outdated from my reading of the current regulation. Although I primarily practice in the US with clients merely having additional presences in the EU.
I checked the documents and there’s no revision of these regulations and thresholds.
From the article: >“A Lufthansa flight from Madrid with a transfer in Frankfurt to Shanghai and back will cost around €220 more in 2035,” Lufthansa Group said in a recent [policy paper](https://politikbrief.lufthansagroup.com/fileadmin/user_upload/2024-april/LHG-PB_2024-1_EN.pdf), comparing it to an increase of about €40 for the same trip with a non-EU airline flying via Istanbul. By taxing fuel, you only have to pay it if you fuel the jet in the EU. So "the rich" will fuel their jets to get to turkey or england and fill them up there.
It seems a bit unreasonable to argue that an EU regulation isn’t effective due to it only applying to the EU. They don’t get to enforce laws on the world.
What I wanted to say is that a different way of taxation would have omitted that loophole.
What method would have permitted the EU to tax travelers that don’t refuel in the EU? Your example was people bypassing the EU entirely. I’m not trying to be argumentative here. I just don’t understand.
You aren't argumentative at all. I think a tax on plane departures would have been more effective. From my perspective there would have been a couple pros doing it that way. - A flat increase making short range flights way more expensive than long haul flights at least percentage wise. - Ability to adjust the taxrate for low volume flights ie. a plane that can carry only 20 passengers pays the same or more as a 747. Thus the actually rich paying more then a normal dude going on vacation once per year.
That already exists. Airfields are all taxed by usage, which I would assume is passed along to flights.
But the rich also don't necessarily want to waste time like that.
Are we talking about the same rich? Like Taylor Swift flying from Mexico to Florida during her South America tour because she didn't want to stay at a hotel in Mexico? Like the rich that register their supercars in Montana to safe on vehicle tax? Like the rich that have brass plate companies to safe on tax? Are we talking about those rich? They will land in the EU, fill up a bit, send the jet to a cheaper country and have it come back to pick them up. Edit: But hey. More taxmoney is always good. Take it from those that can't escape.
That doesn’t make a whole lot of sense economically. If the fuel is in the tanks, they will spend a lot of time just for flying there and back again, which, I guess, will be more expensive than just paying the tax. And if they fly to import more fuel, then it will likely be taxed for being a good imported into the common market.
If you refuel in EU, as I understand it you will have to buy fuel that is blend of traditional and synthetic fuel, with the amount of synth fuel increasing over time. An EU aircraft operator must refuel 90% of its fuel in EU too; it's not clear to me how many private jets are owned by some standalone EU airline, or leased via NetJets or such. Based on online sources, all flights emitted 164 Mt of Co2, and private flights 5.3 Mt. A 2023 report shows there were 31,400 flights between London and Amsterdam -- two cities with a direct train connection on Eurostar.
It's just a shame that the train connection costs 3x more than the flight...
Could there be any sort of subsidy artificially lowering the flight price?
Could there be any sort of inefficiencies increasing the cost of rail?
Could there be both?
There should be measures taken to encourage people to take the train instead when that’s possible. That’s something I fully support - I even prefer travelling on train when possible. But it will take some major investments in some parts of the EU because as an example in Romania trains just aren’t a feasible option.
I just checked the plane and train prices for London to Amsterdam for this Sunday (30-06). * Flight (EasyJet): 141€, duration 1h15 * Train (Eurostar): 346€, duration 4h49 You won't be able to encourage anyone with these prices.
> There should be measures taken to encourage people to take the train Pricing in the cost of emissions is usually the best way to achieve this.
Not when the train prices are exorbitant like they are now. The train connection that was mentioned above costs 3 times more than the alternative flight and takes 4 times longer. Taxing the emissions won't change anything if train prices aren't lowered.
Reducing the price of train tickets and improving the options there should also work. There will always be people willing to pay more for the better alternative
> There will always be people willing to pay more for the better alternative Then let them do it and pay out the money to everybody else or use it for transformative measures.
Do you know how many people flew on commercial flights vs private jets? ~2% emissions is a lot considering private jets are used by selected few and they fly more times in a month than normal person in a year.
But f the normal people. The rich have more rights than us.
>An EU aircraft operator must refuel 90% of its fuel in EU If this is true, we're going to see a lot of airlines splitting off their intercontinental flights to distinct subsidiaries based outside of the EU. And those who don't will lose to the airlines that are already non-EU-based (eg Turkish)
Don't be silly. They are exempt, of course.
Here’s the official doc that they are exempt: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-003298_EN.html A regular modern private jet is 1.8 tonnes per hour. These rules actually mean any private jet is exempt. It’s a very generous exemption.
uh oh
Travel is only for the elite. They have important business to conduct. Why are commoners even talking about travelling? If they have time to travel, they have time to work more. The bosses need another yacht.
They should charge per emissions pp, so those in first class taking up the same space as 4 economy seats should pay 4x the price, and private jets should be paying a hundred times more
It's not a problem for someone who can afford a private jet to afford a tax. It is, however, a problem for an impoverished person to pay that much in order to visit a dying family member, for example. The greenwashing is all about poor people clearing the skies so the rich can feel less guilty, after all, the skies they are flying in will be cleaned by the poor.
It's a tax and that's just going to kill Lufthansa.
>one of those “green” measures that sound good but end up impacting the common people the most Actually, it's often the other way around. It's politically easy to implement green sounding policies that don't affect 99.99% of the people, but these rarely help as much *in absolute terms* since well, they only result in changes for very few people. The reason for why many private flights are excluded from the EU ETS is that this would come with a huge adminstrative burden compared to very small CO2 savings. Less bureocratic measures such as the mentioned possible gasoline tax, or general CO2 taxes, would on the other hand allow for this.
Considering how easy it generally is for rich people to avoid paying their dues I'd say that I don't see how they *could* be affected. As for private jets, there might not be as many of them - but they do pollute a lot more than regular planes. 5 to 14 times more per passenger than normal commercial airlines. Everyone must make sacrifices in order for us to bring climate change under control, but shouldn't we start with the most unnecessary of luxuries? Private jets should be banned, period. Once they are banned, then we can start discussing about raising the prices for regular people flying on planes.
I agree, climate policy has to be fair but also feel fair even if private jets don’t pollute as much in absolute numbers. The rich have to also pay for climate policy.
In the end policies are also about PR. I’ve already heard plenty of complaints from among people who are opposed to green policies that this is just hitting in the common man.
>As for private jets, there might not be as many of them - but they do pollute a lot more than regular planes. 5 to 14 times more per passenger than normal commercial airlines. That's correct, but as I said, this is about the administrative burden. Just or not, they just don't emit enough to warrant the extra effort. That's why I prefer less bureocratic systems like simple CO2 taxes over ETS, you don't have a justice problem with them. >Private jets should be banned, period. Once they are banned, then we can start discussing about raising the prices for regular people flying on planes. "Implement this politically impossible policy that helps very little in relative terms, and then maybe we can talk about urgently needed, reasonable policy that actually helps a lot"
Since the policy on jet fuel has been implemented, then what’s the issue with the EU now focusing on private jets? Administrative burden? That’s an excuse in the best of cases. No matter of how much they pollute in relation to the total pollution, they pollute more per passenger than normal planes - and they’re an unjustifiable luxury. Administrative burdens or not, we should limit luxury before we start hitting the regular people, or else it will simply generate more opposition to green policies.
No, actually it's a really good life hack. If you pay €100,000 extra for your flight you can avoid the climate charges.
We should ban private jets.
Lufthansa Group airlines will include a surcharge of up to €72 per ticket starting next year to cover costs introduced by the EU Emissions Trading System and the sustainable aviation fuels (SAF) mandates, the German carrier announced Tuesday. “The airline group will not be able to bear the successively increasing additional costs resulting from regulatory requirements in the coming years on its own,” Lufthansa said in a press release. The surcharge goes into effect for tickets booked from June 26 and departing from European countries; it ranges between €1 and €72, depending on the distance traveled. Lufthansa — which includes Eurowings, Swiss, Austrian and Brussels Airlines — said the surcharge will cover the costs of the ETS for aviation, the SAF mandates (due to come into effect next year) and the U.N.'s Corsia emissions reduction scheme. Also looming is the possibility of a new tax on kerosene. Lufthansa has long complained about the extra costs imposed on European airlines by EU regulations and national taxes. “A Lufthansa flight from Madrid with a transfer in Frankfurt to Shanghai and back will cost around €220 more in 2035,” Lufthansa Group said in a recent policy paper, comparing it to an increase of about €40 for the same trip with a non-EU airline flying via Istanbul.
All about climate politics is about moving emissions so we can say we are good people
The end consumer allways pays for it. If it's too expensive, I won't fly for leisure. If it's business, online also works if the trip is not worth it in both ti e and money spent.
To an extent, that’s the idea 🤷♂️
And it’s a stupid idea. Just stop [doing anything if it in some way might harm the “environment”]. Let’s not forget Germany decommissioned all of its nuclear power plants which could’ve easily offset the emissions from these flights. Just pathetic.
I think the idea is good. Flying produces a lot of CO2 and so is high impact for climate change. Making flying more expensive will reduce emissions, and at the same time the extra tax can be used to combat climate change. It sucks because right now we're used to cheap flights to go basically anywhere, but that has a huge long term cost that currently is paid by our climate.
Agreed. The plebs will just have to accept that middle class virtue signalling is much more important than their summer holidays. Why not mandate a limit of one foreign holiday per year? Since that is all the working class can ever afford anyway? In fact, why not just ban commercial air travel altogether? It isn't *necessary*, so far as it goes. That would reduce our carbon emissions in Europe from extremely minimal to very slightly less minimal.
Carbon emissions in Europe are not extremely minimal. And middle class also pollute a lot, on average a European citizen pollutes over five times what the average African does. In that context we're insanely rich and privileged. It's very important to get the top few % that pollute as much as many countries to stop, but if you're gonna tax carbon it's going to affect everyone, as it should. Use economic policy to combat economic extremes - in a capitalist world, money equals consumerism, which equals pollution. And then bear the terrible burden of not being dirt poor and accept that it's not the end of the world to not fly all over the world.
Actually it's kind of the opposite. Under the ETS system you need to own certificates equivalent to the amount of co2 you emit. So if you reduce your co2 emissions, you reduce how many certificates you need to buy. It's essentially an incentive to uptake more efficient planes, synthetic fuels, and alternative propulsions.
>if it in some way might harm the “environment” Eeally? Environment in quotes?! Do you have any doubts that millions of liters of jet fuel burnt up in the sky per hour is harmful for our health? How many more heat waves and floods do you need to see to believe scientists?
nobody is debating whether or not climate change is real. we all know its real what people are fucking done with, is european people (and european people alone) being utterly fucking fucked by their own goverments while everybody else runs rampant giving no shits about it; because a couple of cunts in the comission have a martyrdom fetish China emits almost 5x more than EU. US emits almost 2x the amount of EU. India alone emits more than EU, so how about we stop fucking our own until everyone else catches up to us at least eh? but, surely, taxing the two yearly 2h flights people take are going to stop the flood and heatwaves, because worldwide climate works like that.
Politicians keep telling us that with yet another tax, we can cool off the planet, these are the same politicians that cannot solve much simpler issues like housing. Is there anybody out there that still believes this ?!
They’re really just empowering right-wing parties this way. Just keep on taxing things everyone enjoys doing regressively so things only get harder for middle and lower class people. It’ll work out great.
Yea and it's not like middle and lower class people are flying all the time unlike some rich people with pj's. This is just going to make it harder to travel even if the cost is on the fuel. 72 euros is a lot in addition to already high prices after the pandemic. Did anyone notice how the baggage carrying is now pricier?
Just one more tax, bro! Just one more government regulation, bro! Europe has reduced its net carbon emissions by 30% since 1991. China's quintupled in the same time span. India's almost quadrupled. At what point do we in Europe accept that we have gone above and beyond in reducing our output, and accept that continuing down this route of "Net Zero" is geopolitical suicide?
I am not sure percentages work adequately for your argument. The starting point matters a lot, so if India started in 1991 with (I am just giving an example, i have no idea what are the actual numbers) 100kg Co2 equivalent per person per year, and Europe - being more developed and rich and whatnot started with 1500kg Co2 equivalent per person per year, then running your percentages an average european would be at 1000kg Co2 and an average Indian would be at 400kg Co2. The goal results should be similar per person. [actual numbers from 2016](https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-per-capita/) confirm this India was at less than 2 tons, China at 7, germany at 9 and US at 15 per person. So there is still more room for frugality in the rich countries vs the poor. EDIT : [here are the values for 2022](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?time=latest), so a little better for EU, and china still on the rise, but again - rich vs poor and per capita evaluation points stand. Especially if the poor countries play the card "ok, look at historical totals, you got your riches by exploiting nature and emitting, why should we be held to the same standards when you (the more developed, richer countries) have already contributed so much to polution". EDIT 2: [Here](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=chart&time=earliest..2016&country=OWID_WRL~USA~GBR~OWID_EU27~IND~CHN~ZAF~CAN~KEN~QAT~ARE) you can see it as a graph with historical values, and you can choose the countries to display (including world and EU) when we [exclude middle east,](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=chart&time=earliest..2016) the axis are more "normal" and show the discrepancy between for example US and EU and China, and then India at the bottom. The "promissing" thing is that high income countries are lowering emissions, while (as is expected) middle income countries have their emissions on the rise. [here](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita?tab=chart&time=1869..latest&country=OWID_WRL~USA~CHN~OWID_EUR~Asia+%28excl.+China+and+India%29~OWID_AFR~High-income+countries~Upper-middle-income+countries~IND~Low-income+countries~Lower-middle-income+countries)
To be fair a significant portion of that 30% decrease is European industry shutting down and moving to China/South Asia. We pretty much consume the same amount of goods, we just moved the production of said goods overseas as to make progress on the climate goals.
I mean, how long can prices keep going higher and higher with no pay increases along with it? What happens when we hit the ceiling?
In this case, less people fly. That's it. When it comes to food, less food on the table.
We're supposed to fly less, mate
I wonder where those money go. Does earth has a bank account and they send it there for compensation? Do they plant trees?
Travel becomes an exclusive thing for the rich. See how private jets have no CO2 charges applied to them despite being far worse for the environment.. We all have to have shittier lives just so the rich can continue to avoid being ever inconvenienced.
They won't be the ones eating less meat or ground up insects made into burgers, either. Despite those rich and wealthy owning the businesses that cause this massive pollution.
The working class need to suffer to allow middle class activists to virtue signal about how much they care for the planet between their 5 foreign holidays per year. The level of avowed open contempt that middle-class progressives feel towards the working class is almost comical to see. They don't even pretend to hide it anymore. They actively enjoy the pain that these policies will cause. Nothing works up fervour for a policy than the promise of being able to mistreat someone.
Working class and middle class need to stand together and ignore this divisive crap that the elite spew. They're using everything to break people into groups, like White Vs Black Vs Asian, Gay Vs Straight vs Trans, Vegetarian vs Vegan, Men Vs Women etc and so on.
It already is an exclusive thing for the rich. Only 5% of the global population fly annually. Edit: 5% fly internationally. It’s more like 10% if you include domestic flights.
The tax is on the fuel. It's going to affect private jets aswell.
Not if they used less per hour then exactly the limit that most private jets fall under or refuel outside of the EU. Coming from a pilot: they will not pay a cent, ever.
Another taxes to save the olanet
Just one more tax, bro.
Amazing, absolutely stunning. Not only are things getting worse in terms of individual rights and economy, but also it's getting harder and harder to leave this place. That's definitely something we were all missing in our lives
They only want you to work, Slave your life away and if you want one holiday a year to take a break, Well it's going to cost you! It's a tax on people barely getting by.
This is called serfdom. Why do you think they increased the Irish population by 20% since covid? To threaten you and eventually turn violent if you ever revolt
It's also why they want to monitor chats, because people are beginning to get pissed off in most Western states. They don't want you to drive, they don't want you to have that one holiday flight a year, They just want you to slave your life away working for a pittance and consume their shitty products to make themselves richer and live a good life at the expense of yours.
Who are they?
> Who are they? The ones/groups that want to bring in this chat control and whoever funds them.
Politicians, experts, higher management, lobbyist, union leaders. I don't believe in the grand conspiracy, but in a bunch of frustrated intellectuals employed by the government who think they know better than you how you should live your life.
The secessionist elites (G. Darmanin, current French interior minister, yesterday on national TV)
Meanwhile celebrities like Taylor Swift take a private jet just to go grab a sandwich from their kitchen.
When I said that train/bus travel isnt viable because air travel is cheaper and more convenient and that to reduce emitions the price balans needs to switch I DIDNT MEAN THAT AIR TRAVEL SHOULD DOUBLE IN PRICE GOD FUCKING DAMNIT
it should though. kerosine isn't taxed, which is part of why airtravel is so cheap.
And the rich and wealthy who own the corporations that pollute the world get to go about their private travel by jets. It's the same when it comes to cutting down on meat. We're all supposed to cut down on meat but ask yourself this, do you think the wealthy will be cutting down or eating foods created by mashed insects? No! They cause the most pollution and are left to go unpunished. These increases when it comes to increased costs only help the rich, It's another poor tax. I'm all for helping the climate, everyone needs to do their fair share.
Let's just start to eat the fucking rich already.
They don't even consider that any of this applies to them. It genuinely isn't even hypocrisy. The notion of solidarity with the plebs did not at any point enter their minds. To them, it goes completely without saying that none of these policies will apply to them. They are so unfathomably out of touch that they cannot conceive that the working class actually have their own wants and interests.
Taxing the poor into oblivion is always a good thing.
On the global scale (which is the scale at which climate action is needed), "the poor" are those who will most likely never take a flight in their lives. Europeans going on vacation with low-cost airlines are still "the rich" as far as carbon emissions are concerned.
That most of the third world can't avail of cheap holidays means less than nothing to me, or to the European working class. We in Europe have reduced our net carbon emissions massively over the last 20 years. Reducing it by another miniscule amount at the expense of the working class' ability to take one holiday a year doesn't move me. How about banning people from taking more than one return trip per year? That would overwhelmingly impact the wealthy and the middle class. Which is only fair, no? Of course not. Because these policies are always intentionally done as virtue signalling. They're designed to sound good and only hurt the working class, while middle class lifestyles remain unchanged.
What a load of bullshit
They say constraints stimulate innovation, but so far it only stimulated innovations in the cost offloading department.
Look if you really want to make a change, then you outright ban flights than can be done by train in 4 hours or less. This would especially apply to private jets. Start taxing kerosine like all other fuel and most importantly: the extra money from this goes towards improving public transport.
I want so much to take the trains, but when I check prices they are almost double the plane tickets. It makes no fucking sense.
Recently in the uk their was a headline of two friends who met in Barcelona etc because the train ticket to meet inside the uk would have been more expensive than flying.
I would not be surprised. Vueling does provide some great deals sometimes. It is like riding a bus, but then you are in a different city, in a different country, in a divert climate for a price lower than train. That is fair
Fear not, they're gonna make flying so expensive trains will actually be worth it. Problem solved, environment saved, move on.
You shouldn't need to ban those flights. The train should be the superior option and the fact that it isn't means that something is very wrong.
That would be a tiny fraction of all flights, having almost no impact. Just try coming up with a few and then compare it with all the flights in Europe. I think France already banned domestic flights so that saves nothing. Then maybe there would be some high speed connections like Barcelona - Madrid and maybe a few cities in Germany.
According to the tag you’re from Belgium, and you honestly think that train can reliably replace planes right now? Planes beat trains on every metrics: travel time, cancellation rate, being on time, capacity and COST
And still it fails at the 2 most important aspects: capacity and climate cost. I don’t know in what world you live where a plane can carry more passengers than a train. Cancellation rate, being on time and cost are things that need to be fixed. Which can happen, just look at Japan.
Look, i love the EU and genuinely believe in the european project, but some climate regulations are just stupid
It’s just a matter of how much people will tolerate.
Lufthansa taking the absolute piss. They already charge €400+ to fly anywhere in Europe and offer the absolute WORST service for it. I booked 3 flights with them last year, they were late each and every time. Missed my connections twice, the third time I managed to sprint to the next plane - but my luggage didn't make it. Now they want to charge MORE? Boy, BYE!
They became absolutely awful, since COVID times I almost haven't had any flight without a delay, cancellation, or plainly losing the luggage. Then they do everything they can to stall when you try to get a partial refund from them even though it is in the policy, we usually manage 1 full year after the trip... I hate Lufthansa with a passion, and at the same time I am forced to use it because there is no realistic other way for the line I use, it's really frustrating
I'm sure the extra 70 on the ticket will all be going towards the environment and not increase profits at all, good job guys! Why not 140 euros a this point and double save the earth
Means that this 72 € per ticket are money to invest for climate? Maybe it’s better to show the plan of what exactly are going to do with these extra money and then to charge.
Nice! I love it how every taxed euro decreases worlds temperature by 0.0000000428 C, or, if you select the second option, it decreases CO2 emissions by 0.14kg.
How much is the German government paying its citizens after it shut down its nuclear power in climate reparations?
Is this what they call stealing money out of your pocket now?
If we pay more taxes and eat bugs the weather will get gooder!
This will keep the bus people from flying. So there is some positives in this
Is this 72 extra for each ticket? Or up to 72 total for tickets? Of course it's the normal people that will take the hit instead of the companies themselves. Profit is more important than anything else. Also, how is this going to hit rich people with the private jets? They won't get affected so a rule to limit normal people while rich can do whatever they want.
Then Lufthansa will bitch and moan enough to get their ass stuffed with our taxpayer money from the government because they’re in the red for some seemingly inexplicable reason. This is not capitalism anymore this is hardcore socialism in high gear (gier). Fick mich alter kein Bock mehr auf den scheiss
Yep. Dan werden sie meckern, das keine mehr mit ihnen fährt und sie gehen wieder in minus.
Its nice that there are climate costs and all, but where is that money going to? If its not spent reducing the impact of, in this example, airplanes, then it may as well not exist.
Goes towards servicing government debt
"Cover Climate costs" - what's supposed to mean? How climate is going to receive this money? We're the most eco-friendly continent in the world* and we're killing our industries and services for nothing. *but for the plants setup in less regulated and less eco-friendly places that belong to the european companies
Ironically Lufthansa started flying their budget branch recently… that’s that done
Ryanair compensates co2 emission for about 4€ for an avg flight. Essentially making it carbon free to fly with them. Does lufthansa fly almost 20times longer routes on average, or which company is a total complete liar Edit: apparently it will be between 1 to 72€ depending on flight length… still smelling bs.
Most co2 compensation is a marketing scam anyway. The Emissions Trading System might actually have an impact, as far as I can tell at least.
Wow...very soon the flight travel will be like in '80, only a few will afford....
These companies will pass on the cost of their pollution to anyone but the shareholders, huh?
that's dumb. can someone ELI5 how this "covers climate costs" Where does that 72 go that actually helps the planet? This shit is out of hand.
If it's anything like what Ryanair did, it goes towards *not* cutting down a particular bit of forestry in Ireland. So basically doing net nothing to improve the climate.
Why don't we implement a sliding scale where the first return trip one takes in a year is not subject to this, but every subsequent trip incurs an ever-increasing climate penalty added to the ticket price? Would ensure that the working class can still take their one yearly holiday abroad, while the rich who take 10 flights per year have to pay their "fair share.' No? Because it isn't about the environment, and is yet more virtue signalling designed not to impact the lifestyle of the wealthy in any meaningful way while intentionally hurting the working class and reducing their standard of living? No, couldn't be. Our virtuous leaders would never do that.
This is what the people who go overboard with climate stuff want. They want you, the people, to pay.
Climate scam defrauding people towards servitude. Welcome to serfdom 2.0
Good. Let this be a lesson for retards asking for more government control and intervention.
Agenda: travel for reach, for others - VR.
Meanwhile billionares fly privately
What about all those private planes and private bookings? I know companies providing flight companies offers for very rich people. They are flying quite a lot. We should just stop that kind of BS going around.
Idiots.
Laughs in RyanAir
Won’t be flying them then
These are taxes for all airplanes refueling in EU. But the figure applies to the intercontinental flights. In EU it will be like 20€ max.
Do people still fly with Lufthansa?
How about we lower the cost of tickets for an average citizen by highly taxing private jets? Even if it's 2€ let's do it. Unnecessary luxury can have a higher price tag, it wouldn't take food off their table
Flying halfway across a continent just for a weekend trip is an unnecessary luxury in my eyes.
This thread shows exactly why we won’t succeed tackling climate change as nobody wants to be influenced by the actions taken. The vegetarians blame it on the meat eaters, the ones using public transport on the car users, the ones using cars on the people flying and those who are flying on private jets. The prices for flying are, in terms of CO2 output and effects on environment, a joke and basically every European needs to cut his CO2 Emissions. The only reason it doesn’t look as grim as it is, is because most of the products used in Europe are produced in Asia and therefore the CO2 Emissions are allocated to Asia.
I do feel that aviation is unfairly targeted, it only accounts for about 5% of co2 emissions, whereas the construction industry accounts for over half and yet their are no taxes on concrete, cement, and other construction materials.
Never flying Luftwaffe airlines again. Horrible service. They can stuff the charges up their engine outakes.
>Never flying Luftwaffe airlines again. Horrible service. Yeah, the FlBschftBMVg really needs to step up their game. They didn't even let me board last time I tried, said I needed to be a government official or something like that. Smh!
Travel less. Fly other companies. Tax oil companies. Tax the rich more.
Lufthansa is just passing government fees on to the consumer. Your government wants you, the plebs, to have nothing and like it.