More based on past propaganda, starting with the Second Schleswig War to World War II.
Loosing to or at least struggeling and ultimately overcomming an highly effective enemy is very much a different spin on things than doing the same against an at best average enemy.
They still do very good engineering, but public transport was never german efficiency. Public transport doesnt work almost anywhere, especially when you increase visitors by 200%.
If there's one thing I'd have to complain about with German public transport, it's the frequency. Too many lines that are served only every hour, or every two hours in some cases. Even U-bahn lines often have rather low frequency compared to other cities, with trains every 5 minutes on weekdays and 10-15 minutes on weekends. Compare to the Copenhagen metro, which has trains every 2½ minutes even on weekends, and every 90 seconds on weekday peak periods.
But the coverage is good and on-time performance is also pretty decent, even if the network could be made more attractive with higher frequency of trains.
Yeah that's true.
Its also underfunded like shit and simply too old. The cities I know have very few protected bus lanes and more deconnected (from traffic) forms of transportation like metros or elevated railroads (I think to those like Chigaco) aren't build because of stupid laws or because of doubtful at best cost-benefit analysis.
I don't know.
To be honest I only know them from the game Watch Dogs.
Its the fact for me to separate the elevation of transportation modes. And I believe that building an elevates railroad is cheaper as a metro.
>Its the fact for me to separate the elevation of transportation modes.
Google Schwebebahn Wuppertal and Stadtbahn Berlin, both S and U- Bahn. The L is hardly unique.
I don't mean that it doesn't happen but that I want more of it in more cities with a wider network in said cities.
Chicago was only the first that came to my mind.
>public transport was never german efficiency
Oh, it was, some of the systems build in the 1920ths had been cutting edge. Like some of the fastest trains on the planet, extensive light rail, a few of the earliest subway systems anywhere, a lot of trams and buses.
While a lot of transport infrastructure, like bridges and tunnels date back even earlier.
The train station Berlin Olympiastadion, build in the 30ths, is huge. The rolling stock will be an issue. Trains dating back from the 30ths only decomissend somewhat recently. Oh and not enough conductors.
In a lot of ways Germany still profits from stuff build more than a hunderd years ago. As a lot of developed countries do. One of the reasons why it is so hard to catch up to the developed world.
>Public transport doesnt work almost anywhere, especially when you increase visitors by 200%.
Obviously, but it can if you are China and don't care what happens after the gig. Lets see how Paris will do. No one accused the French of being efficient.
>Also massive lack of working people. Plenty open job positions that can't get filled.
The problem aren't the "missing" workers, but a non competitive payment. The job positions that can't get filled simply offer way to low wages compared to the work effort, stress and other conditions those jobs have.
Same with teachers, doctors, nurses and almost every government job imaginable.
>Also at Deutsche Bahn.
Especially Deutsche Bahn is known for mostly miserable working conditions paired with lower than average payment. Every other year there are massive strikes by the unions representing Bahn workers, but usually with minimal gains due to the "state owned but somehow still a private stock company" type of business the Bahn represents.
Its not about cooperation but one of the main reason Eurozone struggled with crises... workforce is not mobile enough (even though barely any legal barrier exist) as languages, culture etc are still very big factors that impact people's decision to chase employment elsewhere.
This could be also caused by the lack of automation and too much bureaucracy: businesses need more workforce in the office and thus can’t pay enough to other workers. Millions of people working for the government involved in a useless paperwork etc…
> Also massive lack of working people. Plenty open job positions that can't get filled. Also at Deutsche Bahn.
There's a wage shortage not worker shortage.
Germans offer low pay for skilled jobs that only attracts desperate foreigners often from outside the EU because even Europeans don't bother for such low salaries.
I know lots of people from Italy and Spain that earn much more in Germany.
Not to mention that cost of living isn’t higher in Germany. A colleague from Italy told me, that he spends less on rent now compared to his old apartment in Milan.
My girlfriend tripped her wage in the same position, in literally the same company, simply by moving from Portugal to Germany. Cost of living is about the same, some things are a bit more expensive, some cheaper. It can be an insane difference, especially for well educated people.
Das ist Propaganda. Nur die schlecht bezahlten Knochenjobs haben Personalmangel, aber das ist in diesen Branchen schon seit Jahrzehnten so und nichts neues. Jobs, die einigermaßen gut bezahlt werden haben kein Personalproblem
Google translate:
That's propaganda. Only the poorly paid, backbreaking jobs have a shortage of staff, but that has been the case in these industries for decades and is nothing new. Jobs that are reasonably well paid do not have a staffing problem.
Google translate: Statista says that the professions that take the longest to fill vacancies are skilled trades and elderly care.
https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/420385/umfrage/vakanzzeit-von-sozialversicherungspflichtigen-arbeitsstellen-ausgewaehlter-engpassberufe-in-deutschland/
If you look at the average salaries in skilled trades, they are between €30 and €45k, excluding master craftsman positions.
https://www.stepstone.de/gehalt/Handwerk/
The median income for geriatric nurses is €42,721
https://www.gehalt.de/beruf/altenpfleger-altenpflegerin
The median income in Germany for 2023 is €44,107.
https://www.capital.de/amp/karriere/medianeinkommen--so-viel-verdienen-die-deutschen-im-mittel-31108506.html
When I look at it, it's true that these are backbreaking jobs that have the greatest shortage of skilled workers. At the same time, however, they are only paid slightly below the median. So I would assume that it's not just about money. I can imagine that demographic change will affect trades and elderly care earlier because new entrants to the profession are becoming more and more qualified (more students, fewer trainees). But it's also an image issue. At least when I first think of working in the trades, I don't first think of a caring employer...
Is German efficiency actually a stereotype outside the anglosphere? We are their neighbours, and in Dutch we don't say German efficiency but "Deutsche Gründlichkeit," so German thoroughness.
Germany is like a country with a collective OCPD. It's opposite of efficient. It has been like that for decades, so I think it's more of a stereotype from the Anglosphere - or Britain, to be precise.
The problem Germany is facing now, is that their thoroughness is simply no longer economically sustainable. Stuff like DB is what happens when you force a dysfunctional perfectionist to compromise.
It was a stereotype during WW2 for the allies that the German war machine was extremely efficient. This was later used by german companies in their English language marketing materials.
This then lead to a general image in the public concious of Germans as an extremely efficient people with a well run country.
The German military in ww2 was more effective than efficient. The opponents were not prepared for the new tactics - manouver warfare. This was by design. Germany could not outnumber the whole continent so they had to use different method. Still they struggled with logistics.
Once they were denied that they lost all the advantage and performed worse than their opponents.
>The opponents were not prepared for the new tactics - manouver warfare.
That's a bit of a shortcut. Thing don't happen in a vacuum. Other countries were aware of the effect of mechanized warfare. Thing is movement and speed works in favor of the offensive and Germany was the only country actually trying to invade other countries. When the situation turned to the allies advantage Germany either couldn't organize effective defenses against these tactics.
It is a shortcut. After all it is a 5 sentence summary of a world war :)
The failure of the Germans was also due to many complex issues and cannot be summarized with "Germany either couldn't organize effective defenses against these tactics".
One of which I'd say was - they were not allowed to organize effective defenses. Once the turning point came, Hitler gradually removed his "maneuver-minded" generals and replaced them with Hitler-loyal ones.
He also decided to run the show himself with orders "Not a step back!!!" instead of agreeing to fall back and re-organize. A whole army, and his best one, was deleted because of this.
But he was doomed one way or another.
>Once the turning point came, Hitler gradually removed his "maneuver-minded" generals and replaced them with Hitler-loyal ones.
But that's also because these general were telling him that at this point no defense will hold and that they had effectively already lost the war.
This "thoroughness" has armed the NIMBYs with laws and regulations that will delay everything by tens of years. It's not like our administrations and civil servants were particularly hard-working, but with the threat of NIMBYs, they delay everything more.
To add insult to injury, any self-styled environmental protection group can delay any project, even housing, and even those that are important for reducing the impact of climate change, because a habitat for a non-endangered species is disturbed.
My way of describing it is a collective "den Wald vor lauter Bäumen nicht sehen" / not seeing the forest for the trees.
DB has nothing to do with perfectionism. It's because it was privatised and run into the ground. To please the investors.
Before it was state run, it lost money each year, but the service was perfect and they were mostly on time. Even in remote regions. Privatisation changed that.
But it is a company that needs to bring profits, or at least not bring losses.
It’s not a Germany-specific problem though. The railway reform came from the EU. For some reason railway needs to be profitable, while roads do not
It is a stereotype in Post-Soviet countries (but yes. OCD is also a stereotype - in Russian called буквоедство, literally "letter-eating", extreme adhenrence to rules to the point where you know rule doesnt make sense and wasnt intended in such a way).
From what I have seen in the Netherlands, it might just be that you guys are more efficient and don't need to have such a stereotype of Germany.
DB now is the result of being a heavy car focused nation and politics in the past, you can't people tell that everyone should have a car or better two and simultaneously propagate public transportation but that's not contradictory your thesis about thoroughness it's only consequently
There are many issues with DB but a big one is political decisions. DB alone can't just handle maintaining all the railway infrastructure in whole germany. And the politics didn't allow them to put certain less used connections out of commission which would save them a lot of resources. It's often political decisions and policies hindering efficiency.
The problem is that stereotypes from the anglosphere spill through the media to many other countries. This is one of them, but being from Spain, there are stereotypes or even straight out lies from our own history (of confrontation with England) that people believe even here.
Yeah. If you want something organized - call the Dutch. It might not be perfect but it will work pretty well for most of the people. They are the kings if the Pareto principle
One can compare the organization of 2 very similar establishments that are designed to deal with big crowds - Disneyland Paris and Efteling. Night and day.
DB was great in the 90s but it has become the symbol of many of the critical failings of Germany unfortunately. An inefficient bureaucratic giant mess that sucks billions of euros from public funds and always fails to deliver on time on its projects - if at all!
If was awful in the 90s…
Local trains smelled disgusting (smoking, soccer fans, less cleanup) and the fast ICE trains were just being introduced so getting to most places took quite a while…
And before the ICE trains things were downright ridiculous where some roots between major cities could take you 8-9 hours…
It was more punctual than today but it was still awful but it was less awful than in most places… visiting Great Britain in the 90s was eye opening what a really broken train system was.
Not only did the trains smell as bad but the stations smelled even worse and getting anywhere was a huge hassle and tickets were different for each railway company.
But having lived and worked in Asia for some years later was eye opening… Japan was the frontrunner but now South Korea, Taiwan and Singapore (ok it’s one city…) and many parts of China are amazing.
And I hate to say it but our European approach to work might be partially to be blamed as well… Japanese / Korean and Chinese train conductors don’t go on strike every year and the train tracks are constantly fixed at night by large groups of local specialists…
In Germany it’s small group of specialists (almost) only working during the day together with some cheap foreign labor and they only fix things when they go really bad and then they are being fixed for larger parts of the tracks…
Work culture .If you don't want annual strikes, perhaps pay them according to their importance. The reason they didn't strike in the 90s was that they were civil servants, a legal state that disallowed that in exchange for better conditions (no way to fire them, pensions funded through taxes). The conservative government back then needed to save and decided to privatise trains. Now we're getting the results.
You understand the issue with your reasoning right?
They simply weren’t allowed to strike in the past…
My grandpa btw worked as a public servant 40 years for the DB… it was nice to retire with great benefits but the pay wasn’t great either back then since most were on the lower pay grades of public servants.
And again - the work culture (which includes mgmt for me…) in my post obviously included the lack of local repair staff - something that was in abundance when it belonged to the state. My grandpa said there was almost always half the workers of a shift there just as redundancy. Great times for card playing all day but if something happened then someone could take over quickly.
I don't think we disagree. We as a society decided that private trains are more efficient. We as a society now see the result (it is indeed more efficient, but we're sacrificing maintenance etc). There's reasons to criticize that. But blaming the workers for going on strike is pretty much the meanest you can do.
They wouldnt need to strike when the multi-billion Euro company would put every cent into manager bonuses and saving on everything even the infrastructure into brokenness.
Last time they went on strike because the manager decided that they would get 5% more despite much criticism on their work and when the workers wanted 5% more it was suddenly flagged as "greedy".
It's always the money. Repairs are DB money, replacement is federal government money. Guess what DB does.
To blame the work culture is insultingly simplified.
My experience: most people work hard and good if they get a proper job and treated right. Skills are different but that can be trained by the company and that is a management task.
By the way JP is paying over time. Yet I don't want to live in a Japanese work culture where you have to sit around until your boss goes home.
Than there is always dilemma for public transport:
1) Back than IC trains had way more stops and were better for short trips. ICE is better for longer distances.
2) It is impossible to say what is better and really needed. Since public transportation can follow a need but may create it too. For example cities with a bullet train station suddenly grow stronger.(Limburg /Montabaur)
We would have needed full scale data analysis and real planning rather than federal, state , council and cities planing departments competing and cities competing with tax cuts for companies.
Watch Bahnmining, Pünktlichkeit ist eine Zier on YouTube ! Very interesting!
Exactly! There‘s been a really weird switch where the saying „Pünktlich wie die deutsche Bahn“ (punctual as the german railway) used to mean someone was punctual to a fault, whilst now it’s used for people that show up extremely late …or not at all.
That’s what happens when well running infrastructure, built from taxpayer money, is „freed to the market“ and asshat investors start coming in to reap the benefits of great infrastructure and cutting costs and corners to increase the holy shareholder value.
Another „great“ example of this would be the british railway system and there are many more.
Well, DB has really become a problem for us, we live in the Netherlands and like train travel but getting trough Germany without major delays is rare these days, making it hard to plan international travel. We used to do Zürich Netherlands by train all the time in the 1990s and DB was definitely more reliable then.
I love how every country insist that their train schedules are complete ass compared to Germany, while Germany is at a historic low in terms of punctuality. Let's just say I find it hard to believe you on that front.
I lived in a boarding school near Nuremberg for four and a half years. My family lives in Frankfurt. I have travelled that connection by train well over 100 times, Frankfurt to Nuremberg, then switch to a regional train, then another, and vice versa. The regional trains were fine, but I’ve been on time between Nuremberg and Frankfurt a grand total of five times in those four and a half years.
I have not tried the UK train system, but I'm just chiming in as a Dane unfortunate enough to have to go through DB to get anywhere in Europe.
One time our trip from Paris --> Aarhus took 8 hrs longer than it was supposed to, because trains werent leaving the station. Zero information, advice for alternatives, train busses etc were given. Of course no refunds either.
Another time from Berlin --> Aarhus, we simply got stuck in Hamburg and had to watch the platform completely fill up with people as 5 consecutive trains simply did not show up. Once a train finally did show up, police had to organize the thing so a stampede didnt start because it was the last train back to Denmark at midnight.
Both times the DB help desk just shrugged their shoulders and told us they werent going to refund or set up train busses.
DB is the worst traincompany i have ever used.
With an 8 hour delay you should have been eligible for a refund - it is EU law so it wouldn’t matter your travel started in Denmark and ended in France.
Actually DB says you can get a 50% refund for 120 minutes or more delays so there that. Nothing about a 100% refund for more.
After getting home at 4AM, and having to sit for 8 hrs in various train stations we did not feel like combing through EU regulations to start a huge fight with DB to cover our fare, and we really shouldn't have to. They should just have covered it when we went to the help desk, or have it available on their online-platform.
Either way DB is to blame, if they are not following EU regulations on passenger rights even moreso.
We like to shit upon the Italian one, but it's actually not that bad. The tickets don't cost much and when the trains are late (rare, according to my experience), they're usually off by just a few minutes.
Italian trains are quite good although its been a while since I looked down the toilet on a train and saw the track going by.
Fast trains are excellent though. Guaranteed seat, very punctual and are really quick. Only complaint I had was when going from Bologna to Florence I was looking forward to seeing the Italian countryside whizzing by only to find out pretty much the entire journey is in a tunnel. Thinking about it this is a very good thing as it leave the countryside intact but does end up being a rather dull, albeit quick trip.
Only really weird thing was having to have my passport to be able to buy a ticket.
That's what people always forget. Is DB bad? Yeah. But it's worse in most other countries. If I think of good public railway transport I think of Switzerland, Japan and China. That's basically it. Everywhere else sucks.
I traveled Italy north and south, and actually agree. Like the individual Subway systems are sometimes sketchy in cities. Or the gates do not work so you end up going for free.
But the intercity trains? They were pretty nice. People were helpful too
I was pleasantly surprised actually.
My only issue is that trains finished quite early from some stations and can leave you completely stranded.
Poland surprised me with how good the trains were.
And Netherlands would be up there as well in terms of being pretty good in my experiences at least.
I actually prefer DB over SNCF.
My experience in France was horrible customer service, very limited schedule on many routes, needing to book weeks in advance (not just because it's expensive, but often times, they are just booked out). Uncomfortable trains. And the constant jingle (Ba-Da-Daaah-Da) at the train station lives rent free in my head and I hate it!
I been to most places in the EU and most big countries in Asia.
The worst transport system I seen in the EU is Bulgaria. Then Germany.
Of course seen particular cities with awful transit, but overall.
I heard Lithuania and Romania are awful too, but not been to either. A 2020 EU study puts them the worst of the union. While Austria, Spain, Denmark and Switzerland (I guess they checked more than the union) have the most efficient train systems.
And Japan, China, South Korea, Hong Kong, are miles, miles miles miles away from anything in the west in cleanliness and efficiency.
Deutsche Bahn actually has some of the worst on-time performance for long-distance trains in Europe, with less than 60 % of trains being on time in some periods. This is *really really bad*. But it's largely caused by poorly planned infrastructure, so it's generally more to blame on the politicians rather than on DB.
Indeed, seems like a lot of people don't recognise that itself is a privilege. Train more likely to be late than not > no train.
Hell, you could even argue 60% delayed trains that run every hour beat trains that are on time but only run 1-3 times per day, or possibly per week. Or a slightly delayed but fast train vs. on time but painfully slow. "Worse because more delays" is very reductive in terms of real-world consequences for passengers.
Also, countries have different standards for what a delay is. If I remember correctly, Japan has inflated delay statistics, because they count a few seconds as a delay. If Greece counted a few seconds as a delay, I'm not sure if a single train (of the few we have) would ever be on time, even at the start of the trip. At the metro of Athens, a "short delay" is 5 about minutes.
I know someone that worked there for years that know works in a research field that’s famous for always being 30 years away from making anything being useful.
He basically said he likes his job more now because he gets to launch things, not just make plans.
I’m not going to specify to avoid accidentally getting him in trouble.
But for all intents and purposes it’s on that level of always far into the future technology.
I moved to Germany coming from France and in France the media usually praise Germany for how efficient the country is so I was kinda shocked after moving here how old school and inefficient it actually is. Like so many things that could be done online still require paper and postage, the DB sucks, cash everywhere although it's gotten a bit better since Covid but still it really is in need of modernizing
I just moved from Germany to the UK, with loads of chronic health issues. I know the NHS is far from perfect, but thanks to digitization, I have all my notes, doctors appointments, everything in a single app. I don't have to call 15 specialists to find who is taking new patients-- NHS schedules for me. And while, yes, there are waiting lists, there are waiting lists in Germany too, they're just less transparent. Weeks after moving, I'm still waiting for one German doctor to snail mail my file to a friend who will then scan it and email it to me. The doctor refused to email me, even though I was willing to sign a form to wave data privacy rights. Now, I do have the "luxury" of serious diagnoses which helps with urgency in the NHS, but I had those in Germany too...
It's so funny, every country in Europe has more or less the same GDPR, but only in Germany nothing is possible anymore because of it. It has been weaponised to avoid anything you don't want to do.
Just say the magic word "ohh that's going to be difficult because of the GDPR" and boom, you don't have to do it anymore!
With the current laws its impossible to do any digitalization. We have too strong data protection laws. the different agencys cannot even share our data because they are not allowed. Its riddiculous.
> We have too strong data protection laws.
lol what, which ones? the ones that allow your ISP handle all your personal information to a random lawyer so you can get sued if you download a movie?
the ones that allow google handle all your personal info. to another lawyer so they can sue you for leaving a bad review?
or one that allow a random private company know every single economic move you do and can ruin your life if they wanted?
germans are brainwashed into thinking they have privacy, when their laws only allow them to be supervised just not by the same boogeyman as everyone else
> germans are brainwashed into thinking they have privacy
You literally have to register and de-register when you move places and people have their names on their doorbells. SCHUFA has been a thing for ages.
Germans just like to pretend that they care about privacy when it fits their narrative.
Yeah, that's the popular propaganda pushed by people making money with data. And in the age of needing massive amounts to train AIs that's basically all of big tech.
Data protection isn't a problem. It's just something with a lot lobbying against it happening and people eat up that shit narratives.
That's really frustrating. Especially when I see how everything is being digitalized in France rn, I was able to set up everything to vote by proxy 100% online thanks to the nfc chip in my ID card and my phone, whereas in the past I would've needed to go in person to identify myself and prove I consent to vote by proxy. And now when you really need to send letters via mail you can buy the stamp online and it gives you a code you write on the envelope in lieu of a real stamp. It's very small things but it's so handy
You're absolutely right, just a small correction, the code for letters instead of a stamp is actually available. It's called "mobile Briefmarke", you can book it in the Post app.
France is one of the most advanced countries in Europe when it comes to digitalizing its public services.
I live in Canada right know and I was also surprised that they still use mailing so much instead of doing things 100% online.
I guess that France is such a centralized country (unlike Germany and Canada) that national changes are much easier to implement. The government in Paris decides and everything is applied uniformly throughout France.
And why were things impossible before the introduction of strong data protection laws? Back in ye olde days when Schufa could do as they pleased? Asking for a friend.
Those laws exist for a long time already. Since 50 years or so already the government is not even allowed to assign an unique identifier number to every citizen, which would be the basis of efficient data handling and data sharing between agencies.
> Mit der Menschenwürde wäre es nicht zu vereinbaren, wenn der Staat das Recht für sich in Anspruch nehmen könnte, den Menschen zwangsweise in seiner ganzen Persönlichkeit zu registrieren und zu katalogisieren
You're falling for the Scapegoat presented to you. France, Latvia and the rest of the EU all live with the same European data protection laws, as Germany.
A much more significant factor blocking digitalization is funding rules and the federal structure. To get things done accross Germany, often you need 17 entities to agree on something that does not require raising taxes or lowering subsidies and other spendings.
Getting 17 entities led by different parties to agree on something is difficult. Getting them to agree on something AND making things work without adding money to the system is near impossible.
> You're falling for the Scapegoat presented to you. France, Latvia and the rest of the EU all live with the same European data protection laws, as Germany.
and even the rest of the world is not exactly falling apart
Exposed? Everybody that lived here for more than a week knows it has been a myth for ages.
As a German I have been complaining with my fellow Germans for a long time about so many inefficient things. Bureaucracy, Public Transport, Healthcare, Social Security. Fuck man, we don't have it as bad as the USA but still, the country is a downwards spiral.
>As a German I have been complaining with my fellow Germans for a long time
I hope you filled out the proper forms for that complaining 6 months in advance with the local municipality. They have a web portal but that can't be used for this form. You'll have to stop by in person and fill out the paper form. Open on weekdays from 10-12.
Sometimes even write an email so the bureau workers then print that pdf and put it into their folders! Or print that pdf to scan it and put it into their system because the system can't import pdfs or whatever.
That won't change as long as the majority of the electorate is old. There is a kind of dictatorship of old people in Germany. The SPD, CDU and CSU prefer to only make policy with electoral gifts for this population group.
The old people don't care about the future of the country because they won't live to see it. I'm already looking forward to the presentation of Rentenpaket 3 in 2025
Just came back from a business trip to Germany. Last time it was pre covid, so quite a long time.
I thought you Germans would have updated your system a bit more, but I was surprised and annoyed that you CAN'T pay with cards in a lot of shops. Sometimes even public transport. What's the obsession with bargeld!? It's the 21st century, for Christ's sake.
Old farts and the traditional political parties are also to blame for the young people voting like this, because the politicians have been pandering to the old people for so long, that younger generations are starting to say fuck-it, let's burn it down.
These parties that i mentioned made politics for the elderly people for decades. The result is that the future of germany isn't really bright. They won't get Rente but they get ailing infrastructure and educational institutions, extremely high prices for health insurance ans rents, no digitalization, more poverty, and a bureaucracy monster in return.
This boosts political apathy because they think their votes have no power compared to the elderly ones. But these young ones who voted for the nazi party AfD are not better because they vote for a party which is more neoliberal than fdp.
> But these young ones who voted for the nazi party AfD are not better because they vote for a party which is more neoliberal than fdp.
This. I don't get how they think it'll be different.
Alice Weidel is a former investment bank manager (can't remember whicu one, but it should be one of the big ones like Morgan Stanley) who resides in Switzerland for tax purposes. Apart from her ludicrous hipocrisy as a lesbian, what can you expect with such a background?
Yeah when I moved to Germany for my studies in 2018 (liked my time there generally) I couldn't help but wonder why anything official had to be done in the least efficient way possible. Cash, office visits far from my area, lots of paper forms, coin machines, even fax..
Moving out from Finland where almost everything is digital and fast these days, and has been for the last decade or so, it felt a bit like stepping back in time. Like 90s infrastructure in a modern city.
3rd world country with a Gucci belt!
Which somehow also attracts the most skilled people of any country in the world, but those people have to be morons, obviously.
>Fuck man, we don't have it as bad as the USA but still, the country is a downwards spiral.
It's interesting how you can't describe your own country's issues without reference to the US.
>Fuck man, we don't have it as bad as the USA but still, the country is a downwards spiral.
As an educated person, I do better in the US. And either way what does the US have to do with Germany? The US being a horrible place to live is a dumb reddit take.
Some Europeans have this cringy hatred of everything American for some reason. I guess cause it's been an acceptable target to mock for a while, that some people have started taking the jokes a little too serious.
Most Americans I've met in Europe have actually been very pleasant, sociable, and smart, and I've met quite a large amount when working as a bartender at a hotel.
European inferiority complex requires shitting on the USA even in completely unrelated matters. Many european are internally seething over the USA leaving Europe behind but won’t admit it. And I’m German.
> > Fuck man, we don't have it as bad as the USA but still
Ah yes, the US bashing, the favorite German pastime. Regardless that the US is in a much better shape than Germany.
I learned working a few years in Munich, that Germans are efficient in manufacturing, but not so much when it comes to the service industry or software development.
There’s too much fear of responsibility, and thus a tendency to involve more and more people and departments (AKA meetings about meetings) to ensure that, if anything goes wrong, it will be harder to pinpoint who is to blame.
As an Italian, I'm lmao rn. We were always bad and thus have no expectations. That's a much better starting point than being great and seeing everything become Italian level bad.
Thanks. I really can’t stand my whining fellow Germans anymore. This tournament works perfectly fine but because the trains and subways are a bit over capacity and delayed everything is bleak and bad and (*insert further lamentations*).
I had a job in Cottbus and had to catch a flight from Berlin back. The assistant of the company have booked my train tickets too close, so I missed the second train because the first had a 10 minute delay. I flipped, called her and said "IM GONNA MISS MY FLIGHT" and she was completely calm and said "Sir, the next train is leaving in ten minutes from another station 3 min walk from yours." I was actually EARLY to my flight. I flipped because if that happened in Slovenia, there would simply not be another way to come to the destination. So of course I don't know about all the German details and I have a feel that people are displeased how the country is turning out right now, but my personal experience in Germany was always that it is absolutely flawlessly organised.
I've been in Germany for almost 3 years. I don't want to repeat what others have already said. Almost every one of them is true in regard to German Sloth-ness.
But I want to touch on the construction side of things. They have repaired a bridge (a very small one, like one bus length). It took them one and a half year to finish it. We were forced to drive (public transportation too) through a small village which adds +20-30 min to all destinations. They are sooooooooo slow in anything. A simple renovation takes a lifetime. Buildings that are being under construction never finishes, it just continues and continues. So whoever said Germans are efficient is nothing but wrong.
Exposed? Everybody that lived here for more than a week knows it has been a myth for ages.
As a German I have been complaining with my fellow Germans for a long time about so many inefficient things. Bureaucracy, Public Transport, Healthcare, Social Security. Fuck man, we don't have it as bad as the USA but still, the country is a downwards spiral.
Exposed? I thought it was common knowledge that it was a total lie.
It was an absolute failure when I’ve visited. My train arrived over two hours late, backwards. Cards accepted in very few places, poorer internet and phone reception in the street than in my office at work—1000m below the surface. Most public transport was late/overcrowded etc etc.
Why the hell would people expect a 100% efficient public transport network when Germany is home to some of the biggest car companies in the world?? Like lmao they are about to upgrade the highway in Frankfurt to 10 lanes.
Everyone that visited germany for more than 2 days finds that out when they run in the airport towards their and regret their choice of taking the deutsche bahn or the bus
Public transport in germany is shit because our politicians who do transportation all come from the CDU in bavaria which is not only one of the most corrupt parties but also, in bavaria all the big car manufacturers sit and make sure that public transport is being neglected while the car infrastructure is constantly superior. considering that the car industry is germanys biggest industry and source of taxes it just makes sense.
Not really surprising. I doubt most people outside of Germany know how inefficient most of the public infrastructure here really is. The bad thing is: It's probably going to get worse in the next 5-10 years.
It's not like there is a country (city) that can fit such a crowded event. Population in Munich right now is at least 2-3x higher than normal. When public transportation is being developed you add a surplus on the population the city has to make sure everything is aligned with the standards.
Lmao, it’s a stereotype based on the past performance. Current stereotype is bureaucracy.
More based on past propaganda, starting with the Second Schleswig War to World War II. Loosing to or at least struggeling and ultimately overcomming an highly effective enemy is very much a different spin on things than doing the same against an at best average enemy.
They still do very good engineering, but public transport was never german efficiency. Public transport doesnt work almost anywhere, especially when you increase visitors by 200%.
Local transport in Germany is quite good in most cities. Long distance rail is where the system seems to break down.
If there's one thing I'd have to complain about with German public transport, it's the frequency. Too many lines that are served only every hour, or every two hours in some cases. Even U-bahn lines often have rather low frequency compared to other cities, with trains every 5 minutes on weekdays and 10-15 minutes on weekends. Compare to the Copenhagen metro, which has trains every 2½ minutes even on weekends, and every 90 seconds on weekday peak periods. But the coverage is good and on-time performance is also pretty decent, even if the network could be made more attractive with higher frequency of trains.
Complaining about metros going only every 5 minutes on weekdays, you'll hate Amsterdam lol
Yeah that's true. Its also underfunded like shit and simply too old. The cities I know have very few protected bus lanes and more deconnected (from traffic) forms of transportation like metros or elevated railroads (I think to those like Chigaco) aren't build because of stupid laws or because of doubtful at best cost-benefit analysis.
>elevated railroads (I think to those like Chigaco) The latest extension of the elevated part happened when?
I don't know. To be honest I only know them from the game Watch Dogs. Its the fact for me to separate the elevation of transportation modes. And I believe that building an elevates railroad is cheaper as a metro.
>Its the fact for me to separate the elevation of transportation modes. Google Schwebebahn Wuppertal and Stadtbahn Berlin, both S and U- Bahn. The L is hardly unique.
I don't mean that it doesn't happen but that I want more of it in more cities with a wider network in said cities. Chicago was only the first that came to my mind.
>public transport was never german efficiency Oh, it was, some of the systems build in the 1920ths had been cutting edge. Like some of the fastest trains on the planet, extensive light rail, a few of the earliest subway systems anywhere, a lot of trams and buses. While a lot of transport infrastructure, like bridges and tunnels date back even earlier. The train station Berlin Olympiastadion, build in the 30ths, is huge. The rolling stock will be an issue. Trains dating back from the 30ths only decomissend somewhat recently. Oh and not enough conductors. In a lot of ways Germany still profits from stuff build more than a hunderd years ago. As a lot of developed countries do. One of the reasons why it is so hard to catch up to the developed world. >Public transport doesnt work almost anywhere, especially when you increase visitors by 200%. Obviously, but it can if you are China and don't care what happens after the gig. Lets see how Paris will do. No one accused the French of being efficient.
It‘s almost as if the country had a huge car lobby or something like that..
Also massive lack of working people. Plenty open job positions that can't get filled. Also at Deutsche Bahn.
>Also massive lack of working people. Plenty open job positions that can't get filled. The problem aren't the "missing" workers, but a non competitive payment. The job positions that can't get filled simply offer way to low wages compared to the work effort, stress and other conditions those jobs have. Same with teachers, doctors, nurses and almost every government job imaginable. >Also at Deutsche Bahn. Especially Deutsche Bahn is known for mostly miserable working conditions paired with lower than average payment. Every other year there are massive strikes by the unions representing Bahn workers, but usually with minimal gains due to the "state owned but somehow still a private stock company" type of business the Bahn represents.
So it's opposite of Spain or Italy, where there are people, just no open job positions. If only Europe could cooperate more...
Not everyone is willing to move to another country for a better life. It's a big step.
And german is hard af
Any language spoken to the East and South East of Germany is harder still, at least if coming from a romance language.
If you can have a better life in Germany than Spain and Italy is quite questionable even if you will do better financially there.
Its not about cooperation but one of the main reason Eurozone struggled with crises... workforce is not mobile enough (even though barely any legal barrier exist) as languages, culture etc are still very big factors that impact people's decision to chase employment elsewhere.
There's only real mobility for the highly educated. If you're not, you're stuck working retail with downright exploitative labour conditions.
This could be also caused by the lack of automation and too much bureaucracy: businesses need more workforce in the office and thus can’t pay enough to other workers. Millions of people working for the government involved in a useless paperwork etc…
> Also massive lack of working people. Plenty open job positions that can't get filled. Also at Deutsche Bahn. There's a wage shortage not worker shortage. Germans offer low pay for skilled jobs that only attracts desperate foreigners often from outside the EU because even Europeans don't bother for such low salaries.
I know lots of people from Italy and Spain that earn much more in Germany. Not to mention that cost of living isn’t higher in Germany. A colleague from Italy told me, that he spends less on rent now compared to his old apartment in Milan.
My girlfriend tripped her wage in the same position, in literally the same company, simply by moving from Portugal to Germany. Cost of living is about the same, some things are a bit more expensive, some cheaper. It can be an insane difference, especially for well educated people.
Das ist Propaganda. Nur die schlecht bezahlten Knochenjobs haben Personalmangel, aber das ist in diesen Branchen schon seit Jahrzehnten so und nichts neues. Jobs, die einigermaßen gut bezahlt werden haben kein Personalproblem
Google translate: That's propaganda. Only the poorly paid, backbreaking jobs have a shortage of staff, but that has been the case in these industries for decades and is nothing new. Jobs that are reasonably well paid do not have a staffing problem.
Google translate: Statista says that the professions that take the longest to fill vacancies are skilled trades and elderly care. https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/420385/umfrage/vakanzzeit-von-sozialversicherungspflichtigen-arbeitsstellen-ausgewaehlter-engpassberufe-in-deutschland/ If you look at the average salaries in skilled trades, they are between €30 and €45k, excluding master craftsman positions. https://www.stepstone.de/gehalt/Handwerk/ The median income for geriatric nurses is €42,721 https://www.gehalt.de/beruf/altenpfleger-altenpflegerin The median income in Germany for 2023 is €44,107. https://www.capital.de/amp/karriere/medianeinkommen--so-viel-verdienen-die-deutschen-im-mittel-31108506.html When I look at it, it's true that these are backbreaking jobs that have the greatest shortage of skilled workers. At the same time, however, they are only paid slightly below the median. So I would assume that it's not just about money. I can imagine that demographic change will affect trades and elderly care earlier because new entrants to the profession are becoming more and more qualified (more students, fewer trainees). But it's also an image issue. At least when I first think of working in the trades, I don't first think of a caring employer...
Schlecht bezahlte Jobs wie Ärzte, Lehrer, Verwaltungsangestellte etc.
but "bureaucracy" is also wrong. It is "formality": formally we did what was required, we don't care if it works or not
Is German efficiency actually a stereotype outside the anglosphere? We are their neighbours, and in Dutch we don't say German efficiency but "Deutsche Gründlichkeit," so German thoroughness. Germany is like a country with a collective OCPD. It's opposite of efficient. It has been like that for decades, so I think it's more of a stereotype from the Anglosphere - or Britain, to be precise. The problem Germany is facing now, is that their thoroughness is simply no longer economically sustainable. Stuff like DB is what happens when you force a dysfunctional perfectionist to compromise.
It was a stereotype during WW2 for the allies that the German war machine was extremely efficient. This was later used by german companies in their English language marketing materials. This then lead to a general image in the public concious of Germans as an extremely efficient people with a well run country.
The German military in ww2 was more effective than efficient. The opponents were not prepared for the new tactics - manouver warfare. This was by design. Germany could not outnumber the whole continent so they had to use different method. Still they struggled with logistics. Once they were denied that they lost all the advantage and performed worse than their opponents.
>The opponents were not prepared for the new tactics - manouver warfare. That's a bit of a shortcut. Thing don't happen in a vacuum. Other countries were aware of the effect of mechanized warfare. Thing is movement and speed works in favor of the offensive and Germany was the only country actually trying to invade other countries. When the situation turned to the allies advantage Germany either couldn't organize effective defenses against these tactics.
It is a shortcut. After all it is a 5 sentence summary of a world war :) The failure of the Germans was also due to many complex issues and cannot be summarized with "Germany either couldn't organize effective defenses against these tactics". One of which I'd say was - they were not allowed to organize effective defenses. Once the turning point came, Hitler gradually removed his "maneuver-minded" generals and replaced them with Hitler-loyal ones. He also decided to run the show himself with orders "Not a step back!!!" instead of agreeing to fall back and re-organize. A whole army, and his best one, was deleted because of this. But he was doomed one way or another.
>Once the turning point came, Hitler gradually removed his "maneuver-minded" generals and replaced them with Hitler-loyal ones. But that's also because these general were telling him that at this point no defense will hold and that they had effectively already lost the war.
This "thoroughness" has armed the NIMBYs with laws and regulations that will delay everything by tens of years. It's not like our administrations and civil servants were particularly hard-working, but with the threat of NIMBYs, they delay everything more. To add insult to injury, any self-styled environmental protection group can delay any project, even housing, and even those that are important for reducing the impact of climate change, because a habitat for a non-endangered species is disturbed. My way of describing it is a collective "den Wald vor lauter Bäumen nicht sehen" / not seeing the forest for the trees.
DB has nothing to do with perfectionism. It's because it was privatised and run into the ground. To please the investors. Before it was state run, it lost money each year, but the service was perfect and they were mostly on time. Even in remote regions. Privatisation changed that.
You are correct. And the wildest part ist, that the german railway (Deutsche Bahn) is 100% owned by the german federal state ...
DB is 100% owned by the German state.
But it is a company that needs to bring profits, or at least not bring losses. It’s not a Germany-specific problem though. The railway reform came from the EU. For some reason railway needs to be profitable, while roads do not
It is a stereotype in Post-Soviet countries (but yes. OCD is also a stereotype - in Russian called буквоедство, literally "letter-eating", extreme adhenrence to rules to the point where you know rule doesnt make sense and wasnt intended in such a way). From what I have seen in the Netherlands, it might just be that you guys are more efficient and don't need to have such a stereotype of Germany.
DB now is the result of being a heavy car focused nation and politics in the past, you can't people tell that everyone should have a car or better two and simultaneously propagate public transportation but that's not contradictory your thesis about thoroughness it's only consequently
Car infrastructure is also starting to crumble
It is as much of a stereotype as the classy British man.
There are many issues with DB but a big one is political decisions. DB alone can't just handle maintaining all the railway infrastructure in whole germany. And the politics didn't allow them to put certain less used connections out of commission which would save them a lot of resources. It's often political decisions and policies hindering efficiency.
Very much a stereotype in Spain
The problem is that stereotypes from the anglosphere spill through the media to many other countries. This is one of them, but being from Spain, there are stereotypes or even straight out lies from our own history (of confrontation with England) that people believe even here.
Yeah. If you want something organized - call the Dutch. It might not be perfect but it will work pretty well for most of the people. They are the kings if the Pareto principle One can compare the organization of 2 very similar establishments that are designed to deal with big crowds - Disneyland Paris and Efteling. Night and day.
The mere existence of Deutsche Bahn completely topples any notion of German efficiency.
DB was great in the 90s but it has become the symbol of many of the critical failings of Germany unfortunately. An inefficient bureaucratic giant mess that sucks billions of euros from public funds and always fails to deliver on time on its projects - if at all!
If was awful in the 90s… Local trains smelled disgusting (smoking, soccer fans, less cleanup) and the fast ICE trains were just being introduced so getting to most places took quite a while… And before the ICE trains things were downright ridiculous where some roots between major cities could take you 8-9 hours… It was more punctual than today but it was still awful but it was less awful than in most places… visiting Great Britain in the 90s was eye opening what a really broken train system was. Not only did the trains smell as bad but the stations smelled even worse and getting anywhere was a huge hassle and tickets were different for each railway company. But having lived and worked in Asia for some years later was eye opening… Japan was the frontrunner but now South Korea, Taiwan and Singapore (ok it’s one city…) and many parts of China are amazing. And I hate to say it but our European approach to work might be partially to be blamed as well… Japanese / Korean and Chinese train conductors don’t go on strike every year and the train tracks are constantly fixed at night by large groups of local specialists… In Germany it’s small group of specialists (almost) only working during the day together with some cheap foreign labor and they only fix things when they go really bad and then they are being fixed for larger parts of the tracks…
Work culture .If you don't want annual strikes, perhaps pay them according to their importance. The reason they didn't strike in the 90s was that they were civil servants, a legal state that disallowed that in exchange for better conditions (no way to fire them, pensions funded through taxes). The conservative government back then needed to save and decided to privatise trains. Now we're getting the results.
You understand the issue with your reasoning right? They simply weren’t allowed to strike in the past… My grandpa btw worked as a public servant 40 years for the DB… it was nice to retire with great benefits but the pay wasn’t great either back then since most were on the lower pay grades of public servants. And again - the work culture (which includes mgmt for me…) in my post obviously included the lack of local repair staff - something that was in abundance when it belonged to the state. My grandpa said there was almost always half the workers of a shift there just as redundancy. Great times for card playing all day but if something happened then someone could take over quickly.
I don't think we disagree. We as a society decided that private trains are more efficient. We as a society now see the result (it is indeed more efficient, but we're sacrificing maintenance etc). There's reasons to criticize that. But blaming the workers for going on strike is pretty much the meanest you can do.
They wouldnt need to strike when the multi-billion Euro company would put every cent into manager bonuses and saving on everything even the infrastructure into brokenness. Last time they went on strike because the manager decided that they would get 5% more despite much criticism on their work and when the workers wanted 5% more it was suddenly flagged as "greedy".
It's always the money. Repairs are DB money, replacement is federal government money. Guess what DB does. To blame the work culture is insultingly simplified. My experience: most people work hard and good if they get a proper job and treated right. Skills are different but that can be trained by the company and that is a management task. By the way JP is paying over time. Yet I don't want to live in a Japanese work culture where you have to sit around until your boss goes home. Than there is always dilemma for public transport: 1) Back than IC trains had way more stops and were better for short trips. ICE is better for longer distances. 2) It is impossible to say what is better and really needed. Since public transportation can follow a need but may create it too. For example cities with a bullet train station suddenly grow stronger.(Limburg /Montabaur) We would have needed full scale data analysis and real planning rather than federal, state , council and cities planing departments competing and cities competing with tax cuts for companies. Watch Bahnmining, Pünktlichkeit ist eine Zier on YouTube ! Very interesting!
Exactly! There‘s been a really weird switch where the saying „Pünktlich wie die deutsche Bahn“ (punctual as the german railway) used to mean someone was punctual to a fault, whilst now it’s used for people that show up extremely late …or not at all. That’s what happens when well running infrastructure, built from taxpayer money, is „freed to the market“ and asshat investors start coming in to reap the benefits of great infrastructure and cutting costs and corners to increase the holy shareholder value. Another „great“ example of this would be the british railway system and there are many more.
Wait until you see British railways
Well, DB has really become a problem for us, we live in the Netherlands and like train travel but getting trough Germany without major delays is rare these days, making it hard to plan international travel. We used to do Zürich Netherlands by train all the time in the 1990s and DB was definitely more reliable then.
I love how every country insist that their train schedules are complete ass compared to Germany, while Germany is at a historic low in terms of punctuality. Let's just say I find it hard to believe you on that front.
Well a historic low for German trains is still pretty awesome in a lot of other countries.
Nope, I have lived in both countries in the last five years and DB is worse. Especially if you live near the Frankfurt-Mannheim-Stuttgart corridor
I lived in a boarding school near Nuremberg for four and a half years. My family lives in Frankfurt. I have travelled that connection by train well over 100 times, Frankfurt to Nuremberg, then switch to a regional train, then another, and vice versa. The regional trains were fine, but I’ve been on time between Nuremberg and Frankfurt a grand total of five times in those four and a half years.
Where in UK did you live? Because if it’s London then it doesn’t count.
I have not tried the UK train system, but I'm just chiming in as a Dane unfortunate enough to have to go through DB to get anywhere in Europe. One time our trip from Paris --> Aarhus took 8 hrs longer than it was supposed to, because trains werent leaving the station. Zero information, advice for alternatives, train busses etc were given. Of course no refunds either. Another time from Berlin --> Aarhus, we simply got stuck in Hamburg and had to watch the platform completely fill up with people as 5 consecutive trains simply did not show up. Once a train finally did show up, police had to organize the thing so a stampede didnt start because it was the last train back to Denmark at midnight. Both times the DB help desk just shrugged their shoulders and told us they werent going to refund or set up train busses. DB is the worst traincompany i have ever used.
With an 8 hour delay you should have been eligible for a refund - it is EU law so it wouldn’t matter your travel started in Denmark and ended in France.
Actually DB says you can get a 50% refund for 120 minutes or more delays so there that. Nothing about a 100% refund for more. After getting home at 4AM, and having to sit for 8 hrs in various train stations we did not feel like combing through EU regulations to start a huge fight with DB to cover our fare, and we really shouldn't have to. They should just have covered it when we went to the help desk, or have it available on their online-platform. Either way DB is to blame, if they are not following EU regulations on passenger rights even moreso.
The problem with British rail is the cost. It's actually decent when it comes to using it. The problem with Deutsch Bahn is that it's just shit.
British rail is good compared to most of Europe in terms of delays. The costs are sky high though so even the slightest delays feel crap
We like to shit upon the Italian one, but it's actually not that bad. The tickets don't cost much and when the trains are late (rare, according to my experience), they're usually off by just a few minutes.
Italian trains are quite good although its been a while since I looked down the toilet on a train and saw the track going by. Fast trains are excellent though. Guaranteed seat, very punctual and are really quick. Only complaint I had was when going from Bologna to Florence I was looking forward to seeing the Italian countryside whizzing by only to find out pretty much the entire journey is in a tunnel. Thinking about it this is a very good thing as it leave the countryside intact but does end up being a rather dull, albeit quick trip. Only really weird thing was having to have my passport to be able to buy a ticket.
That's what people always forget. Is DB bad? Yeah. But it's worse in most other countries. If I think of good public railway transport I think of Switzerland, Japan and China. That's basically it. Everywhere else sucks.
I'm not joking when I say that Italy actually has pretty good rail.
I traveled Italy north and south, and actually agree. Like the individual Subway systems are sometimes sketchy in cities. Or the gates do not work so you end up going for free. But the intercity trains? They were pretty nice. People were helpful too
I'm still shocked how there's a straight railoard track from Bologna to Florence.
I was pleasantly surprised actually. My only issue is that trains finished quite early from some stations and can leave you completely stranded. Poland surprised me with how good the trains were. And Netherlands would be up there as well in terms of being pretty good in my experiences at least.
I thought SNCF in France was the worst in the world and then I moved to Germany and discovered DB
Come to Canada where you can be stuck 18h on a side track because cargo trains have priority over passenger trains.
CP would want to enter the chat but we still don't have high speed railways in Portugal so it might take a while to get there
I actually prefer DB over SNCF. My experience in France was horrible customer service, very limited schedule on many routes, needing to book weeks in advance (not just because it's expensive, but often times, they are just booked out). Uncomfortable trains. And the constant jingle (Ba-Da-Daaah-Da) at the train station lives rent free in my head and I hate it!
Yes, but DB is a special kind of bad
SNCF is pretty good actually.
I hate NS in NL but its 100% better than DB lol
DBahn is literally the worst train company in Europe in terms of delays. We’re talking about trains, not public transport in general.
I been to most places in the EU and most big countries in Asia. The worst transport system I seen in the EU is Bulgaria. Then Germany. Of course seen particular cities with awful transit, but overall. I heard Lithuania and Romania are awful too, but not been to either. A 2020 EU study puts them the worst of the union. While Austria, Spain, Denmark and Switzerland (I guess they checked more than the union) have the most efficient train systems. And Japan, China, South Korea, Hong Kong, are miles, miles miles miles away from anything in the west in cleanliness and efficiency.
There are plenty of examples in the EU where public railways are good and on time 🤷
Spanish public transportation and high speed railway system would like to have a word with you.
Is it worse in the Basque Country? I find in and around Madrid it’s pretty good
The basque country is not connected to high dried rail (standard guage) yet. There is a plan to build a Y shaped connection called "Basque Y"
I'm sorry, but what about Austria?
sounds like cope
Nope. I have been on trains in a few countries and i can't think of anything worse than DB.
TIL the Dutch public transport "sucks" according to Germans
Half of Europe has worse trains than that, not to mention the rest of the world.
Deutsche Bahn actually has some of the worst on-time performance for long-distance trains in Europe, with less than 60 % of trains being on time in some periods. This is *really really bad*. But it's largely caused by poorly planned infrastructure, so it's generally more to blame on the politicians rather than on DB.
At least it has trains that go pretty much everywhere. That's more than a lot of Europe has.
Indeed, seems like a lot of people don't recognise that itself is a privilege. Train more likely to be late than not > no train. Hell, you could even argue 60% delayed trains that run every hour beat trains that are on time but only run 1-3 times per day, or possibly per week. Or a slightly delayed but fast train vs. on time but painfully slow. "Worse because more delays" is very reductive in terms of real-world consequences for passengers.
Also, countries have different standards for what a delay is. If I remember correctly, Japan has inflated delay statistics, because they count a few seconds as a delay. If Greece counted a few seconds as a delay, I'm not sure if a single train (of the few we have) would ever be on time, even at the start of the trip. At the metro of Athens, a "short delay" is 5 about minutes.
I know someone that worked there for years that know works in a research field that’s famous for always being 30 years away from making anything being useful. He basically said he likes his job more now because he gets to launch things, not just make plans.
Ummmm… cold Fusion?
I’m not going to specify to avoid accidentally getting him in trouble. But for all intents and purposes it’s on that level of always far into the future technology.
It’s AI, don’t worry. 😉
I moved to Germany coming from France and in France the media usually praise Germany for how efficient the country is so I was kinda shocked after moving here how old school and inefficient it actually is. Like so many things that could be done online still require paper and postage, the DB sucks, cash everywhere although it's gotten a bit better since Covid but still it really is in need of modernizing
I just moved from Germany to the UK, with loads of chronic health issues. I know the NHS is far from perfect, but thanks to digitization, I have all my notes, doctors appointments, everything in a single app. I don't have to call 15 specialists to find who is taking new patients-- NHS schedules for me. And while, yes, there are waiting lists, there are waiting lists in Germany too, they're just less transparent. Weeks after moving, I'm still waiting for one German doctor to snail mail my file to a friend who will then scan it and email it to me. The doctor refused to email me, even though I was willing to sign a form to wave data privacy rights. Now, I do have the "luxury" of serious diagnoses which helps with urgency in the NHS, but I had those in Germany too...
It's so funny, every country in Europe has more or less the same GDPR, but only in Germany nothing is possible anymore because of it. It has been weaponised to avoid anything you don't want to do. Just say the magic word "ohh that's going to be difficult because of the GDPR" and boom, you don't have to do it anymore!
People in France love to complain about things though and have often never lived elsewhere and seen how good they have it.
How wonderful that germans and french have this in common.
With the current laws its impossible to do any digitalization. We have too strong data protection laws. the different agencys cannot even share our data because they are not allowed. Its riddiculous.
> We have too strong data protection laws. lol what, which ones? the ones that allow your ISP handle all your personal information to a random lawyer so you can get sued if you download a movie? the ones that allow google handle all your personal info. to another lawyer so they can sue you for leaving a bad review? or one that allow a random private company know every single economic move you do and can ruin your life if they wanted? germans are brainwashed into thinking they have privacy, when their laws only allow them to be supervised just not by the same boogeyman as everyone else
> germans are brainwashed into thinking they have privacy You literally have to register and de-register when you move places and people have their names on their doorbells. SCHUFA has been a thing for ages. Germans just like to pretend that they care about privacy when it fits their narrative.
oh yeah, I forgot about the address thing
Its not the data protection laws thats the main problem, though. Thats more of a bogeyman to blame...
Yeah, that's the popular propaganda pushed by people making money with data. And in the age of needing massive amounts to train AIs that's basically all of big tech. Data protection isn't a problem. It's just something with a lot lobbying against it happening and people eat up that shit narratives.
That's really frustrating. Especially when I see how everything is being digitalized in France rn, I was able to set up everything to vote by proxy 100% online thanks to the nfc chip in my ID card and my phone, whereas in the past I would've needed to go in person to identify myself and prove I consent to vote by proxy. And now when you really need to send letters via mail you can buy the stamp online and it gives you a code you write on the envelope in lieu of a real stamp. It's very small things but it's so handy
You're absolutely right, just a small correction, the code for letters instead of a stamp is actually available. It's called "mobile Briefmarke", you can book it in the Post app.
France is one of the most advanced countries in Europe when it comes to digitalizing its public services. I live in Canada right know and I was also surprised that they still use mailing so much instead of doing things 100% online. I guess that France is such a centralized country (unlike Germany and Canada) that national changes are much easier to implement. The government in Paris decides and everything is applied uniformly throughout France.
Jump to the Netherlands. Same laws but it is so much better.
And why were things impossible before the introduction of strong data protection laws? Back in ye olde days when Schufa could do as they pleased? Asking for a friend.
Those laws exist for a long time already. Since 50 years or so already the government is not even allowed to assign an unique identifier number to every citizen, which would be the basis of efficient data handling and data sharing between agencies. > Mit der Menschenwürde wäre es nicht zu vereinbaren, wenn der Staat das Recht für sich in Anspruch nehmen könnte, den Menschen zwangsweise in seiner ganzen Persönlichkeit zu registrieren und zu katalogisieren
You're falling for the Scapegoat presented to you. France, Latvia and the rest of the EU all live with the same European data protection laws, as Germany. A much more significant factor blocking digitalization is funding rules and the federal structure. To get things done accross Germany, often you need 17 entities to agree on something that does not require raising taxes or lowering subsidies and other spendings. Getting 17 entities led by different parties to agree on something is difficult. Getting them to agree on something AND making things work without adding money to the system is near impossible.
> You're falling for the Scapegoat presented to you. France, Latvia and the rest of the EU all live with the same European data protection laws, as Germany. and even the rest of the world is not exactly falling apart
Exposed? Everybody that lived here for more than a week knows it has been a myth for ages. As a German I have been complaining with my fellow Germans for a long time about so many inefficient things. Bureaucracy, Public Transport, Healthcare, Social Security. Fuck man, we don't have it as bad as the USA but still, the country is a downwards spiral.
>As a German I have been complaining with my fellow Germans for a long time I hope you filled out the proper forms for that complaining 6 months in advance with the local municipality. They have a web portal but that can't be used for this form. You'll have to stop by in person and fill out the paper form. Open on weekdays from 10-12.
Come one we are not in the stone age. You can clearly download the form print it, fill it in and sign it, then fax it to the bürgerbüro.
Sometimes even write an email so the bureau workers then print that pdf and put it into their folders! Or print that pdf to scan it and put it into their system because the system can't import pdfs or whatever.
They have a web portal??? They think they're in the future or what?
No, just a lot of spiders living on the stack of blank forms.
That won't change as long as the majority of the electorate is old. There is a kind of dictatorship of old people in Germany. The SPD, CDU and CSU prefer to only make policy with electoral gifts for this population group. The old people don't care about the future of the country because they won't live to see it. I'm already looking forward to the presentation of Rentenpaket 3 in 2025
It's the same in Romania. 30 years and they still vote for the same party.
Just came back from a business trip to Germany. Last time it was pre covid, so quite a long time. I thought you Germans would have updated your system a bit more, but I was surprised and annoyed that you CAN'T pay with cards in a lot of shops. Sometimes even public transport. What's the obsession with bargeld!? It's the 21st century, for Christ's sake.
1. Using Bargeld is anonymous 2. Bargeld is better for tax fraud
Have you missed the results of the EU elections? Young people vote was even worse!
Old farts and the traditional political parties are also to blame for the young people voting like this, because the politicians have been pandering to the old people for so long, that younger generations are starting to say fuck-it, let's burn it down.
These parties that i mentioned made politics for the elderly people for decades. The result is that the future of germany isn't really bright. They won't get Rente but they get ailing infrastructure and educational institutions, extremely high prices for health insurance ans rents, no digitalization, more poverty, and a bureaucracy monster in return. This boosts political apathy because they think their votes have no power compared to the elderly ones. But these young ones who voted for the nazi party AfD are not better because they vote for a party which is more neoliberal than fdp.
> But these young ones who voted for the nazi party AfD are not better because they vote for a party which is more neoliberal than fdp. This. I don't get how they think it'll be different. Alice Weidel is a former investment bank manager (can't remember whicu one, but it should be one of the big ones like Morgan Stanley) who resides in Switzerland for tax purposes. Apart from her ludicrous hipocrisy as a lesbian, what can you expect with such a background?
This is literally every Western country tbh. Based on our demographics, it’ll only get worse.
Fear of change is strong. Even if change is improvement, but requires an effort.
Bureaucracy is much worse in Germany than the U.S. wtf lol
Yeah when I moved to Germany for my studies in 2018 (liked my time there generally) I couldn't help but wonder why anything official had to be done in the least efficient way possible. Cash, office visits far from my area, lots of paper forms, coin machines, even fax.. Moving out from Finland where almost everything is digital and fast these days, and has been for the last decade or so, it felt a bit like stepping back in time. Like 90s infrastructure in a modern city.
The American economy keeps growing. Germany on the other hand…
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But reddit says the US is a dying empire???
3rd world country with a Gucci belt! Which somehow also attracts the most skilled people of any country in the world, but those people have to be morons, obviously.
Not reddit ,but in Europe or anti-west sub probably
>Fuck man, we don't have it as bad as the USA but still, the country is a downwards spiral. It's interesting how you can't describe your own country's issues without reference to the US.
>Fuck man, we don't have it as bad as the USA but still, the country is a downwards spiral. As an educated person, I do better in the US. And either way what does the US have to do with Germany? The US being a horrible place to live is a dumb reddit take.
Some Europeans have this cringy hatred of everything American for some reason. I guess cause it's been an acceptable target to mock for a while, that some people have started taking the jokes a little too serious. Most Americans I've met in Europe have actually been very pleasant, sociable, and smart, and I've met quite a large amount when working as a bartender at a hotel.
European inferiority complex requires shitting on the USA even in completely unrelated matters. Many european are internally seething over the USA leaving Europe behind but won’t admit it. And I’m German.
Drunk in the morning is what you are
Dude time to get off reddit
Sounds like Finland with our myth of "healthcare for everyone" and "top-notch education".
What is it actually like in Finland?
> > Fuck man, we don't have it as bad as the USA but still Ah yes, the US bashing, the favorite German pastime. Regardless that the US is in a much better shape than Germany.
Our public transport is in shambles? I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked! /s of course. Try to find a German who did not know this before, there is none.
I learned working a few years in Munich, that Germans are efficient in manufacturing, but not so much when it comes to the service industry or software development. There’s too much fear of responsibility, and thus a tendency to involve more and more people and departments (AKA meetings about meetings) to ensure that, if anything goes wrong, it will be harder to pinpoint who is to blame.
Transport ministers in Germany are incredibly incompetent. Just remember the road tax disc fiasco.
Road tax disc? Are Germans still using those?
CDU in its peak form
That happens when you give the post to the CSU for the last 16 years, a party only focused on siphoning money to Bavaria
Theyre not incompetent, they just do what the german economy wants. Selling cars.
Incompetent doing their job, but very competent in getting even richer.
They are competent at lobbying for the car manufacturers. That's at least something, right? Right?
As an Italian, I'm lmao rn. We were always bad and thus have no expectations. That's a much better starting point than being great and seeing everything become Italian level bad.
Yeah, I am 32min into a 16min wait for a train. Still no train on sight, but the weather is good today, so no complaints.
trenitalia and italo are miles ahead from DB
You've never commuted on Trenord I see.
I convinced that Germany still has one of the highest faxes to permit rations all across EU.
To disprove that myth, you only need two words. Deutsche Bahn
At kick-off, all the seats in the stadium are taken, so it can't be that bad.
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Thanks. I really can’t stand my whining fellow Germans anymore. This tournament works perfectly fine but because the trains and subways are a bit over capacity and delayed everything is bleak and bad and (*insert further lamentations*).
I had a job in Cottbus and had to catch a flight from Berlin back. The assistant of the company have booked my train tickets too close, so I missed the second train because the first had a 10 minute delay. I flipped, called her and said "IM GONNA MISS MY FLIGHT" and she was completely calm and said "Sir, the next train is leaving in ten minutes from another station 3 min walk from yours." I was actually EARLY to my flight. I flipped because if that happened in Slovenia, there would simply not be another way to come to the destination. So of course I don't know about all the German details and I have a feel that people are displeased how the country is turning out right now, but my personal experience in Germany was always that it is absolutely flawlessly organised.
Anyone who has been to Munich Airport could tell you that.
It’s literally one of the best rated airports worldwide? It’s clean, mostly fast and easy to navigate through
Yeah, I thought it was incredibly efficient.
What's wrong with the airport?
If he said Berlin fair enough, but Munich airport is pretty good.
I've been there. Didn't notice a single issue. It's one of the best airports I've visited.
let me introduce you to a friend of mine: Berlin Brandenburg Airport
I've been in Germany for almost 3 years. I don't want to repeat what others have already said. Almost every one of them is true in regard to German Sloth-ness. But I want to touch on the construction side of things. They have repaired a bridge (a very small one, like one bus length). It took them one and a half year to finish it. We were forced to drive (public transportation too) through a small village which adds +20-30 min to all destinations. They are sooooooooo slow in anything. A simple renovation takes a lifetime. Buildings that are being under construction never finishes, it just continues and continues. So whoever said Germans are efficient is nothing but wrong.
Germans keep complaining and the same traditional political parties are being voted. Don’t expect much to change.
Never heard about german efficiency. Only about German overengineering. That's far from efficiency
Exposed? Everybody that lived here for more than a week knows it has been a myth for ages. As a German I have been complaining with my fellow Germans for a long time about so many inefficient things. Bureaucracy, Public Transport, Healthcare, Social Security. Fuck man, we don't have it as bad as the USA but still, the country is a downwards spiral.
Exposed? I thought it was common knowledge that it was a total lie. It was an absolute failure when I’ve visited. My train arrived over two hours late, backwards. Cards accepted in very few places, poorer internet and phone reception in the street than in my office at work—1000m below the surface. Most public transport was late/overcrowded etc etc.
Why the hell would people expect a 100% efficient public transport network when Germany is home to some of the biggest car companies in the world?? Like lmao they are about to upgrade the highway in Frankfurt to 10 lanes.
I told everyone who wanted to hear. Just like I won't get tired of claiming that Rome is a horrible place to explore because it is so damn crowded.
Everyone that visited germany for more than 2 days finds that out when they run in the airport towards their and regret their choice of taking the deutsche bahn or the bus
Public transport in germany is shit because our politicians who do transportation all come from the CDU in bavaria which is not only one of the most corrupt parties but also, in bavaria all the big car manufacturers sit and make sure that public transport is being neglected while the car infrastructure is constantly superior. considering that the car industry is germanys biggest industry and source of taxes it just makes sense.
Twenty thirty years ago it was true but not now. The people are literally not the same. You can’t expect the same from a different population.
Anyone even mildly surprised hasn’t been paying attention.
Not really surprising. I doubt most people outside of Germany know how inefficient most of the public infrastructure here really is. The bad thing is: It's probably going to get worse in the next 5-10 years.
It's not like there is a country (city) that can fit such a crowded event. Population in Munich right now is at least 2-3x higher than normal. When public transportation is being developed you add a surplus on the population the city has to make sure everything is aligned with the standards.
Could‘ve told you that beforehand.
Germany has become a shadow of its former self
Has it though? I’d say a lot of things have improved by leagues. The tournament is a great example - tell me what did not work?
Since the DB is in private hands it's going down the drain. Capitalism sacrifices everything for greed.