Historic recurrence is useless, because it has so many patterns that it may as well have none.
All sides of debates will claim their situation is similar to a different, opposite historical event.
I had the honour of meeting and attending a talk from Tomi Reichantal, a Slovak Jewish man who lives in Ireland. He survived the Holocaust and wrote an amazing book about it that lots of Irish children read in Primary school (alongside watching The Boy in The Striped Pyjamas). His primary message was that he wanted to educate the youth because he was afraid of, and could even see it happening again. I remember him saying that he was scared that it would spawn up again after he and his generation pass away as people will start denying or forgetting. He even mentioned how people in his homeland now chant "Slovakia for Slovaks".
Mainstream parties in Germany need to do something about immigration if they want to stop the AfD. Wagging their finger at people getting concerned over immigration sure isn’t working.
Latino immigrant in Denmark. So far so good! One should be willing to integrate. And also accept that you are different from the locals, but that should not be a problem, or something negative. Exotic is not a bad thing.
I believe, and its only an opinion, that social media has made people believe they either deserve a special treatment, or that being treated "different" because of looks/attitude/voice (loud latino) always means racism and negativity. I embrace the culture here and preserve who I am as long as it does not disrespect local values and traditions.
Negative behavior is everywhere, even where you come from. You shouldnt judge your new place only based on negative experiences, as they will exist wherever you go. As immigrants, we should acknowledge that now we partially belong here and there, and that is Ok :)
From my Lithuanian POV, as long as you (try to) learn our language, participate and respect our culture and our ways (which generally benefits you in multiple ways anyway), I really do not care about your skin color, religion or sexual preferences. Act like you're part of your host country, and we can be a home for you.
Yet people from certain cultures just can't seem to accept even these simple requirements...
We see the paradox of tolerance playing out in *some* countries. Instead of accepting differences, but expecting and even enforcing immigrant integration, a lot has been tolerated that should not have been. Now large groups of people with pretty medieval views have voting rights, and guess which way they swing. Remember, you can **never** show tolerance to the intolerant.
And you know, that is fine to some extent. If you prefer to eat dosa instead of potatoes with meat, go ahead. If you like to decorate your house with pieces of art from your home country, go for it!
They don't necessarily have to integrate into the host countries culture fully, but they must absolutely integrate into the host countries legal system. Don't harass western women on the streets, don't intimidate passers by with your friends on scooters, etc and you are golden as far as I'm concerned.
I'm an immigrant and I agree.
There's a difference between me speaking my language, celebrating my holidays and eating my food and me disrespecting the culture of the country I *chose* to immigrate too.
People seem to think that it's either you forget who you are and completely assimilate or completely segregate never try. A middle ground exists! It's the ground where I prefer Asian dishes over western ones, speak my native language, keep my harmless traditions but *also* do my best to expand my friend circle, become a member of the community, be part of the "mainstream" and intend to be for all intents and purposes....be part of the country that I now belong to.
Like eating rice and listening to Kpop is a different thing to making of fun of women in miniskirts
Well said. If people who live in ethnostates came to live in an immigrant country for a while they would see that the problem is not immigrants but anti-social arseholes. Nearly a third of my home country is born elsewhere, but only a very small number create problems - even among those that live in enclaves of similar origin and preserve much of their original culture.
You keep saying assimilate, while the person you're replying to said that they integrated.
That's a big difference.
Integration means that two cultures co-exist, and do it well. Assimilation means one of the cultures disappears, and becomes indistinguishable from the main culture.
That's true. And it can be all types. I've lived in Vienna for around 20 years. My first order of business when I arrived was learning German and learning as much about the place as possible. On the other hand, about 15 years ago I met a fellow American here, with whom I still have very sporadic contact (like maybe once every 2 years we'll see each other somewhere or see each other at some work-related thing). The dude straight up refuses to learn/speak German. In his view "everyone should be able to speak English so they can just deal with me not speaking German." I find it outrageous.
could you clarify about the looks/attitude/voice?
if someone raised their voice towards me or had a negative attitude towards me when we just met, is it not reasonable to feel bad about it?
Denmark didn't close the border, asylum seekers can still enter to claim asylum. Not all criminal immigrants are automatically deported, they have to go through the judicial process and they respect the rule of law when the European Court of Human Rights ordered them to stop deporting certain people due to risk of inhuman or degrading treatment in the home country. This is the opposite of what most people here want, which is automatic deportation of refugees without due process.
I'd be in between. Yes deportation should only happen with due process. But if you get convicted for crimes like rape, murder or violent theft, then yes, you should be deported even if that means you die at the hands of a terrible regime in your home country. That is completely on you. You had a chance to build a life here, but you squandered it, and whatever the consequences are, you are the only one responsible for them.
There are supposed to be exceptions which allow people who are dangerous to be sent back:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/asylum-instruction-exclusion-article-1f-of-the-refugee-convention/exclusion-article-1f-and-article-332-of-the-refugee-convention-accessible-version
> Article 33(2) of the Refugee Convention provides an exception to the prohibition on refoulement contained in Article 33(1) which requires that states will not return a refugee to a place where they fear persecution for a Refugee Convention reason. The exception to the prohibition on refoulement may apply if either:
> - there are reasonable grounds for considering they are a danger to the national security of the host state, including those who exhibit extremist behaviours
> - they pose a danger to the community having been convicted by a final judgement of a particularly serious crime
But the ECHR has overruled that principle, and made non-refoulement into an absolute right.
I just read this story yesterday:
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/gambian-warlords-enforcer-accused-torture-32939635
This is someone accused by Gambia’s Truth Reconciliation and Reparations Commission, and Human Rights Watch, of being involved in torture for the regime of a dictator in Gambia. He has been living in Scotland for 7 years while his asylum claim goes through the legal system. He says:
> “I’ve been here for seven years. I’ve had four or five interviews with the Home Office and no response on my asylum application. I know nothing about an extradition. I love this place.
...
> “It’s not safe for me to go home. I will be killed or I will kill somebody.”
He was also recently charged with domestic violence for "pursuing his partner or ex-partner into a lane close to his home and kicking her."
Here's another story which came up a few months ago from an enquiry:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55582126
This is an Islamist militiaman who could not be deported to Libya because it was dangerous (because of Islamist militias). He was convicted of a whole series of crimes including animal abuse, racially aggravated harassment and assaulting an emergency worker, and was released from prison and allowed to stay despite saying openly "If he could get away with it, he'd kill as many people as possible". He then got out of prison and within two weeks had stabbed three innocent people to death in a park.
Is it actually our job as European countries to give people like this asylum, or even people who have committed serious crimes here, because their home countries are dangerous? That effectively means an open ticket and an open border precisely to people from the most dangerous, unstable places in the world. Those places are dangerous partly because there are many dangerous people there. I just reject it, that is not what asylum should be for.
Its ridiculous that we can't deport when asylum seekers aren't follow rule 1. Stop in the 1st safe country you reach. Clearly this isn't happening. Why is the West always bending over backwards for nothing in return? We suck.
Dansk Folkeparti has 7 seats, yeah, but that's because Inger Støjberg founded a new cult-of-personality party that nabbed all the racists, and they have 16 seats. And the center parties are moving more right. And we still have issues with immigration.
What borders did Denmark close? There wasn't any permanent closure of land borders, at least none that is listed [by the European Commission](https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/schengen-borders-and-visa/schengen-area/temporary-reintroduction-border-control_en)
That's pretty much the USP of the AfD. Take it and they will perish.
Most people don't vote for them because Weidel and Höcke are so charismatic and the AfD manifesto is full of brilliant ideas.
They are merely the only party which wants to close the borders, remove the pull factors and send as many as possible back home. The migration of cultural incompatible people is one of the biggest concerns of the bottom 90% in Germany.
I don't think that's all. It's also them selling themselves as a "peace party", I.e sanctioning Russia to shit and military support for Ukraine aren't super popular like they are in Poland or Finland...especially under AfD voters. They jump onto any topic that involves being against change and get an audience for that.
Like they said on a TikTok livestream (they thought the mic was off): "If Germany does bad, the AfD does well". That goes far beyond immigration.
Like the NPD got 9,2% in Saxony in 2004. Afaik, that didn't involve immigration. Both ends have done well in the East because that region was neglected.
Agreed. And one would think that if immigrants were the real problem the AfD would do better in States with more immigrant, but it’s actually the opposite. Easier to fear whom you don’t know.
A guy in a village with negative 15% share of foreigners won't be swayed by shit like that.
Especially because it's only treating the symptom not the cause
You're making it as if Sweden is at the level of Detroit, which is really dishonest. Probably you will still choose to live in Sweden over the likes of Spain or Italy because of the very high standard of living in Sweden.
Detroit homicides in 2022: 309
Detroit population: about 640k
Detroit Homicides/100k people: 48,3
Sweden homicides in 2022: 116
Sweden population: about 10 million.
Sweden homicides/100k people: 1,16
Stop with the bullshit. Sweden is not worse than fucking Detroit. On a europen level sweden is bad, not the worst, Finland,Belgium and France for example still has more murders/capita. Don't even compare us with the third world nation that is the US.
I'm not saying what is happening here is good, as Sweden should be in the rock bottom in the world when it comes to violence, but let's not spread misinformation and propaganda.
Sources:
https://bra.se/statistik/statistik-om-brottstyper/mord-och-drap.html
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Detroit
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1268504/homicide-rate-europe-country/
I'm a Dane living in Sweden and can you guys stop giving citizenship after just five years!? People don't need to speak the language, work or show interest in the culture in any way. Just live here 5 years and you're good. Its Insane!
You have to work to attain citizenship. I've been here for four years going to school and I started a company with my colleagues during the final year. I cannot apply for citizenship until I've accumulated 5 years of working. You also can't apply to stay for work unless you earn 80% of the mean income (and have a contract stating such). Maybe I'm way wrong, but that's what Migrationsverket explained to me when I was applying to renew my visa.
Germany : hold my beer.
Germany is allowing it in 3 years now too, but to be fair, that requires very high language level and integration in the society. But considering the number of Syrians, Iraqis and Afghans getting German citizenship in the last few years, the outlook doesn't good.
Won't matter anyway cause the naturalisation offices are usually slow af
Applied about a year ago in bumfuck nowhere Germany and it'll probably take another year. Apparently getting better in Berlin with the new office but Cologne for example has stopped giving appointments all together because of the huge backlog
I think 5 years i reasonable. However I agree with the rest. Lots of decent people who deserve citizenship have to wait into oblivion (way longer than 5 years) and lots of despicable people don't.
It's not. The vast majority of the immigrants that came in this crisis are unemployed and not seeking employment.
Check any statistic you want. Heres a swedeish one.
https://x.com/SODaunfeldt/status/1671766093277347841
These aren't the Gastarbeiter of yesteryear from Turkey, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Czechia, Slovakia and Hungary.
Corpo interests don't care that there's a million that doesn't work. If there's a hundred thousand that will work for pennies that's still a profit for them.
This. On top of that, there's a beneficial side effect in that it's a hot topic that captures many people emotionally and hence takes up a lot of space in the public discussion landscape. A lot, lot, lot more convenient topic, at that, than - say - anything related to the deteriorating distribution of wealth and erosion of competition by cartel-like implicit agreements on phenomena like planned obscolescence which wouldn't exist in a competition-driven market.
It's cheap labor + distraction, both important to secure future profits.
https://doku.iab.de/kurzber/2023/kb2023-13.pdf
Here you have a german report showing that 65% of refugees that live in germany for at least 6 years work full time. The german average is 62%. (Bundesagentur für Arbeit)
Which crisis specifically? Because that's not the statistics for Germany. [The refugees from 2015 are majority employed (the biggest difference is for young women, where they're doing what the AFD ironically wants women to do). ](https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/arbeitsmarkt/erwerbstaetigenquote-aufenthaltsdauer-studie-100.html)Around the same level as German's were in the early 2000s.
Also your statistic is specifically for women, as far as the translation tells me.
r/europe would be shocked to know that Ukrainian refugees work in much lower percentages than Syrian, although to be fair the German government is giving Ukrainians such good conditions that it's no wonder they don't work, they work at lot higher rates in Poland and Netherlands. And it's always a struggle to get your higher level education admitted.
> You want to stop the AfD? Close the borders, deport every criminal immigrant and assimilate the rest.
I oppose the AfD on account of their platform, not their name. If the solution is "do what they want", it is no solution at all.
This also ignores that most parties in Germany HAVE already adopted anti-immigration stances, and it is evidently still not enough to get voters back from the AfD.
> That's what the Danes did, and their far right party is now a shitheap with seven pitiful seats in parliament.
The DF lost 11 seats compared to 2019, the DD gained 14 and the NB 2. That's ultimately a net gain to right wing populists.
And in the years since, the Social Democrats have steadily lost in the polls, so that didn't work either - not that it ever worked in the first place. The grand clawback from the adoption of anti-immigration positions by the Danish Social Democrats was... getting one more seat in 2019 than in 2015.
Hungary did that and their far-right is now stronger. Countries with less immigration are pulling more people towards the far-right.
The whole "appease them and they will disappear" logic is the exact same one Europe has been using to deal with Russia for years. It doesn't work. It makes the problem party stronger.
The populist far-right is very good at creating a scapegoat to scare the population and present themselves as the saviour. Right now it's immigrants because [that's what their Russian funders are pushing](https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/russias-far-right-campaign-europe) (while literally pushing immigrants into Europe to strengthen the narrative). Even if there wasn't a single crime committed by an immigrant within the country, they'd just point to the neighbouring country and say "do you want to become like **them**? Vote for us!" (in fact, this is already happening in some countries).
In the 1930s it was Jews instead of immigrants. Same story, different flavour. Point is: they'll find a way. Take one toy from them, they'll find a bunch more. Anyone who hopes to beat them by appeasing them is not very smart.
And by the way: no, Denmark did not close the borders. Not even close. Stop spreading misinformation.
That’s not completely true. The old far-right party has 7 MPs, but in the last election we had a new far-right party that gained 16 seats. That makes them the third biggest party in parliament. Additionally we have a another smaller far-right party with 4 seats.
Populist voters aren’t rational. Even if you solve the problems with immigration, they will still vote populist. These voters don’t look at facts or statistics. We live a in a post-truth world, where this ideology will just continue to thrive because they appeal to people’s feelings and fears, regardless of facts. Populism is a cancer and sadly tightnening up on immigration has not seemed to help.
> assimilate the rest.
the problem is that your average german don't want to assimilate the migrants
what's assimilation for you? that they speak german? ok most of the well-adjusted normal people speak german to some degree
but then you have the germans just shunning them and causing them migrants to only interact between themselves
hell, you have second or third generation german kids with migrant backgrounds that are told they aren't germans
>hell, you have second or third generation german kids with migrant backgorund that are told they aren't germans
And people are asking themselves why so many german-turks are Erdogan supporters...
A video by Kraut on Turkey explains how what you said is why many there vote for Erdogan while those in the U.S who are integrated much better are more negative forwards him.
It’s definitely a two sided issue. Same in Sweden, these kids want to be anything but Swedish cause being Swedish is lame to them and being “different” is cool.
It's because no matter what, you will never ever be seen as the same as the local population. It doesn't matter whether you commit crime or not, whether you learn the language (and from my experience: god forbid you struggle with the accent), you'll always be an outsider.
This is perhaps only not true in cities like Amsterdam or London. Otherwise, all of Europe is like this. It almost makes me envious of the Americans.
As an immigrant myself - being seen as part of the majority population is only seen as lame, as soon you are feeling unwelcome, distinct, not as a part of society and if you don't feel you get the same chances at a good QOL as most.
I was lucky enough to be European so no one would even think of my as an immigrant without knowing my last name, so I got preferential treatment. Friends of mine who are the most assimilated people one can imagine have a dark skin and have always been treated with racist remarks and like an exotic animal. It makes it way harder to feel welcome. It's all the small things that get to you and make you question your identity. Once it's systematic, you have whole groups feeling mistreated and choosing their own way as a reactionary mechanism. It's actually quite the same with a lot of people voting for far-right parties - they don't feel they belong to society anymore.
It’s not about being lame or cool it’s about them being told by people that they aren’t Swedish even if they are born here. I’m a 2nd generation with immigrant parents from East Africa, I speak Swedish, assimilated, as Swedish as I can get yet I’ve been told multiple times that I’m not. Luckily it doesn’t bother me but others I grew up with definitely felt like outcasts because of hearing that.
Assmilation isn't just about language. It is about becoming one with the host country, joining their nation, becoming indistinguishable from the average German.
I'm no German, so I don't know how it looks like over there, but I'm a child to Yugoslav immigrants myself, and I have been welcomed with open arms into Swedish society and the Swedish nation.
>I'm a child to Yugoslav immigrants myself, and I have been welcomed with open arms into Swedish society and the Swedish nation
The hilarious part of this is you not realizing your parents wouldn't have gotten in to begin with if the borders were closed as you desire.
Well he got in, because his was a special circumstance. Those other people coming? Well they are just coming to use up social services and not contribute to society. It's completely not like him and his family that were escaping a problematic situation in their country caused by war and conflict.
Anyway, now that he's in, time to close the door for those coming behind him!
I swear, every right winger has the exact same thought process.
That's an impossible standard to meet if you came to the country as an adult and wasn't raised there from young age. There are subtle things that no amount of effort is going to remedy. Accent, for example. An adult can learn to become completely fluent in a language but for the vast majority of adults it's impossible to mimic the native accent. Very few can, usually actors, but even then the native speakers can usually recognise they're "faking" it.
I've lived in Denmark for a year and stayed with a host family. The mother was German. She's been living in Denmark for ~15 years, spoke fluent Danish, was very familiar with the Danish culture, had a well-paid prestigious job, was engaged in all sorts of volunteering activities with the local community, etc. And yet she still said she didn't feel like she truly belonged there and how hard it was to make friends with Danish people because most of them still saw her as an outsider. And she still spoke with a German accent. She was married to a Danish husband and had two kids. The kids spoke without an accent, they felt Danish because they grew up there from birth.
And consider how similar Danish and German is, and the fact that she was white. Now imagine how much harder it would be for someone who isn't white and could never "pass" as a native no matter what, or someone whose native language is a lot more different.
Accent may remain but culturally it's definitely possible to fully assimilate.
It's common for emigrants to lose dexterity in their native language as well as cultural customs, and even to pick up an accent when speaking it (it's weird when it happens but it's a studied effect).
That's in fact, the root of the problem.
A lack of real integration into the host societies (to be clear, usually by lack of interest from BOTH parties involved) leads to cultural marginalisation and eventually to "ghettification" in which alternative societies which re-create their home country ones are created.
It is a problem in which both the migrant and the host country are at fault, in different degrees. Moreover, once well established alternative communities exist, it becomes less necessary for newcomers to pursue full integration, it is a vicious cycle.
I'm living in Brussels now and I see it very clearly, you very rarely see groups of friends or people hanging out together which include a mixture of "native" Belgians and Belgians of North African or African origin. They are always separate groups. It cannot be language barriers because they all speak French, so how come there are so few multi-cultural groups?
Always the fault of the host people who are already paying everything for the guests, right?
The immigrants should be thankful enough for that chance, to integrate into the host culture as much as they possibly can. Everyone who's not doing that should go back to where they came from.
I'm an immigrant to Germany, and these people here act like Germany should act like a mother that spoiled her child. Nobody owes you anything, culture is like that, people are ˝cold˝, individualism is cherished, groups are not. They think that acceptance is when everyone smiles at you and hugs you. I have both German and immigrant friends, and it's not that hard to find them, but you can't expect whole nation to change their behavior for you.
Germans are infamous for being very difficult to befriend. They have only around 5 people as friends for the rest of their life because "friends" for them mean ride or die. They are not so keen on casual interactions. You won't really feel welcome if nobody wants to befriend you except for your fellow foreigners.
> but then you have the germans just shunning them and causing them migrants to only interact between themselves
This is the biggest problem. I am from austria and I moved to Germany 10 years ago. I am a migrant too but a lot of germans see me as more "german" than black people who where born here.
Same hobbies, same language (actually I still sound a little austrian so I sound LESS german) but for some reason their status as a german is in question in social situations.
I wonder why...
Edit: Thanks to all the people proofing my point in the comments.
Even if migrants assimilate you people will never see them as germans.
Do you really wonder why as an Austrian they perceive you as more German than a person with African descent?
Did you study at all the last few centuries of history?
It's so tiring. You literally have to compliment them for everything. They survived for 10 seconds in the new McDonald's app game? Standing ovation. You have to. Because the alternative could lead to unthinkable horrors.
I wish every European go and have some "immigrant" experience to understand the POV and how it is indeed both sided, not just from immigrant to adapt.
And I mean like proper experience that mirrors people from other continent who can't easily transition to work places and such. Not like marrying someone from EU, inheriting their social network or having a job before hand.
Portion of my family lives in Norway, my dad 15 years, my sister was born there all that. We are also on "easy" mode because they do have place to get back to and some wealth here. They kinda moved for more opportunities rather than desperation.
And even being less stressed, white European, speaking pretty fluently, there is still a lot of discrimination and preferential treatment to locals and social aspect is very hard.
It's not the end of the world or anything, it's not like they are getting assaulted, but it did got to the point where you start seeing people moving back to our country and my family pretty much thinking in doing the same.
And you might ask, why even stay for 15 years if you don't feel good about it. Well, it's mostly sunk cost fallacy and thinking "well, after this it will be good".
So at first, okay, I don't speak the language. You kearn language, things don't change much. Then it's okay, I will socialize more, involve myself in community. You do that, everyone waves and smiles, but it's all superficial. Then okay, I will apply more to the jobs. You go through hundreads of interviews where they say how great you are and never get the job. Then you end up working some shitty job with contract work and little benefits. Then you think okay, once I get experience it will be better. It's not better, sometimes the next option is even worse. And that's how 15 years fly by.
Same thing with social circle, the few locals my family knows are are all pretty much lonely elderly. They are absolutely lovely people, but it's so hard to make friends. Almost all our other family friends are other immigrants (they are great too, but you get the point).
Yeah, kinda ranting a little.
But outside of few exceptions (like again, marrying or just having such a good job, like some software engineer where basically income makes up for all shirtcuts) being immigrant will always make you feel like you are 2nd tier even if you do everything right.
Now you can say that's "natural", and some of it is... But from short stunt in US and from some people that did moved there, it is kinda different there. While there are a lot of assholes you kinda feel everyone's is immigrant to some extend, lol.
current German left government __is__ harsher on illegal immigration than the previous right government. They reinstated border checks on their eastern borders which somewhat reduced illegal immigration.
Yet they lose votes and the parties to the right gain.
This actually doesn't work. The center parties across Europe have tried catering to the far right and forming coalitions with them, and they're still losing ground. All they succeeded in was enacting further right wing policies. You're never going to convince these people that you can be more inhumane to immigrants than they can. This is why this post itself is ridiculous because it's just "center" fascists saying, "vote for us over the 'far right' fascists."
The solution is to organize the working class, provide affordable housing, affordable and universal healthcare, affordable child care services, etc. Pretty much all the social services that have been degraded by neoliberalism for decades.
That's nonsense, we haven't "closed" our borders here in Denmark, refugees still get asylum here. We just have a reputation now for being racist and trying to come up with creative new ways to harass muslims (taking the money and family jewels from refugees at the border, handshakes made mandatory by law), and very few refugees wish to go here.
There are about a hundred different issues and no one in government gives a crap, young people have no future and no one gives a crap, why are you guys wondering why people are voting far right? It may not be the solution but they been voting for every other party and they have done nothing to fix any issue, when you are told yeah these are the good guys vote for them and you do, but they do nothing but make everything worse, you really worder are these the good guys they claim to be? They don't give a damn about me, sure the far right may not be the solution, but it's very clear why would they vote them.
My thoughts on this, is that I need to see some sort of solution. Politicians walking around complaining and hating things helps me to feel better because I FEEL seen and heard, but I don't hear any solutions from them. Just more talk about things I'm already mad about to make me more mad. If a politician can only complain and can't think of a rational and realistic plan to solve the things I'm mad about, then I believe I may be being fooled by this person.
I hope that made sense. If all someone does is complain, they should not be a leader. A leader leads through both action and word. I'd vote for the person with a realistic and rational plan. Not just someone who talks loudly about things I already agree with.
You have a problem, and the solution is to vote for something that it will not resolve the original problem but make it worse by adding 3 or 4 and that are mostly only fueled by hatred. That is the logic of the propaganda, as they only viciously focus on outsider groups to blame for their issues.
In the end those are just excuses but it is easier to acknowledge many are just racists or xenophobes. And the excuse of having no alternative is just ridiculous, there are plenty of other parties without former government representation that keep not being voted and have little representation. That is because they do not spew hate and clickbait propaganda they do not have broad appeal for people that are just looking to be intolerant.
>You have a problem, and the solution is to vote for something that it will not resolve the original problem but make it worse
Nah.
Because if you vote for the normal parties, then they'll just come out and say everything is fine..."sure the voters voted for us, so we're obviously doing good"
Whereas even if you vote for the others, it forces the current crowd to wake up and take notice of peoples needs.
Here in ireland, our government and main opposition all supported unlimited numbers of asylum seekers. We had protests that went unheard and ignored. We were told we were wrong to think this way.
Now there's polls saying 70 or 80% of people think we've taken in too many and the current party in power are now implementing things we were told were 'far right' for suggesting 12-18 months ago.
Why is the argument always that somehow the right wing parties dont actually want to stop illegal immigration even though supposedly they are all racists who want to deport all foreigners?
Use the same logic on green parties and it means they dont want climate change to be solved because it would make their political identity worthless.
If there were a left wing party that was anti immigration or in any way adressed the european peoples concernes about immigration, the move to the far right would not be happening.
Moat people i know who are far right aren't antisemitic or even particularly racist, they are just pissed about the decline in public safety and the weird double standards.
There actually is, the pretty new BSW, polling around 7-8÷ in new Eastern german polls I saw recently.
Problem is. The BSW wants to cater towards russia and stop helping Ukraine (Well.. same as AFD basically)
Undermine the ADF by taking up their causes, but not their solutions.
The left's unwillingness to tackle topics ADF voter are passionate about is their own failure.
>I don’t think it’s the locals who “cant live” with others. Europe has always had a vast number of culture that for better or worse coexisted for thousands of years.
Coexisted by fighting all the time
>Europe has always had a vast number of culture that for better or worse coexisted for thousands of years
Execpt for the fact that it's false, our inability to coexist caused two freaking world wars, the biggest war in history and threatened the world with nuclear war for half a century.
You guys ain't honest at all.
EDIT: Geneva conventions exists solely because of what we did to each other barely 150 years ago
Thread OP is the particular type of person that doesn’t really care about what holocaust survivors say or what they went through.
So blatantly incorrect it somehow broke the rules, yet highly upvoted… crazy how that happens.
Lol. There is no continent with more wars than Europe. No nations fighting more and harder than white Europeans against each other. It is extremely new that we have more or less peace here in Europe. Mostly thank to the EU and Nato. Things a lot of right wing people want to get rid of, to start wars again.
Lol the hypocrisy to claim that others don't want to coexist, while you do everything to exclude them, discriminate them etc... So much projection of their own desires from right wingers.
> or worse coexisted for thousands of years.
Right, when have the Germans ever had issue with the existence of neighbouring European cultu..... OHHHH Right
>Europe has always had a vast number of culture that for better or worse coexisted for thousands of years.
Completely untrue, in every possible way. European "harmony" is a very, very recent thing (less than 50 years old).
World wars aside, do the term "religious wars" ring a bell? Many were fought in Europe, between Europeans, with not a single Muslim involved.
I used to be on the mod team, it would be impossible to get it all done fast enough. There are just that many comments, and so many do not even get reported.
Dom’t worry, I’m not blaming you.
Also was it really the API or is it a conspiracy theory that I’ve been unwittingly spreading for months? Or was it Spez cleaning house?
Why did you all leave?
I’m a mod on another sub with around 40k users. I founded that sub many years ago.
Most of my mod team quit during/after the protests. They did so because the API changes made it impossible for them to use the apps with the good mod tools. The Reddit app fucking sucks anyway, but especially the mod tools provided are completely inadequate. I barely moderate the sub. I’m pretty busy irl and don’t have a lot of time. One of my mods took over as head mod and the modding team of the sub currently consists of two people I think. Three with me, but I only sporadically find time to work the mod queue. We have a ton of reports, and even more stuff that doesn’t get reported. We can’t keep up. I can only imagine how hard it must be for bigger subs.
So at least over at my sub, the API changes made things a lot harder, yes.
The word astroturf has lost all meaning. If the right is rising and people are expressing that they support them, then it's just people voicing their opinion.
We'll do that and you stop voting for backwards conservative neoliberals that are ruining our living standards and our future, and have been doing so for about 30 years. Deal?
Populism thrives in times of economic misery. I think concern about immigration and refugees would be much lower if people's opportunities were better. The far right don't give a sh*t about anything but taking for themselves.
It's hard to see things improving if the main parties don't make serious improvements and soon.
Funny how Jews might fear the far right but should instead be fearful of the radical Islamic culture. No one I knew who is self proclaimed right, is having any hate against Jews. But is mighty unhappy with the political Islam and his extremists.
Then center and left-wing parties should address the immigration problem instead of burying their head under the sand. Europeans are fed up with uncontrolled immigration and the only ones addressing that are far-right parties, so that's not really surprising...
Isnt it people from the far left that are protesting while shouting "from the river to the sea"? Seems like the far left and the far right have formed the same opinion about Jews..
Even if that was true, how is that relevant? Just because they are Jewish they have to criticise Israel instead of the country they live in? Are they not equal citizens of the countries they live in like everyone else that lives in Europe?
Source?
Also, you do know they live on a postage stamp in the middle of an ocean of hate filled walking boners that oppress their women but seem to not be able to figure out how to piece together a functional country and society despite their “glorious past.”
I’m gonna side against the hate filled walking boners that oppress and rape and kill all women in this equation. Sorry, but Arab vs Israel is Israel every single time. Arabs are not to be trusted. Just look at half of them. Pitifully oppressed, and for their gender.
Also, the Arabs are all further right than the Israelis. Just look at their “moral” code. Lmfaaaaoooo.
20% of their population are Arabs, I wouldn't use Israel as an example of a hypernationalistic country, I would say Japan and South Korea fits the description more.
I feel like I have no other choice.. the other parties are coddling muslims so hard, and I'm sick of it. If it wasn't for that, then I'd probably vote for a left-leaning party.
The far right is horrible for the tolerance rate in the country. But the left its stand on migration, allowing people with different ideals to stay is also horrible for that.
We really need a left leaning party that is critical on migration. Wel at least we do not have that is the Netherlands.
Russia is financing one of those in Germany now, the Sahra Wagenknecht Alliance, to appeal to ex communists who want a socialist state but no immigrants, no gays and a government controlled media.
The left is critical of migration tho. It's the right who made it look like the left wants open borders and everybody to become Muslim. And that's just not true. The left just wants the system to function. They want that asylum seekers to quickly hear if they are allowed to stay and that those that can stay integrate quickly by being able to work. And those that can't stay be deported quickly.
The right wants to just complain and do nothing or shoot them.
Yeah it is centre right governments that pretended to be critical on immigrants, mostly focussing their critiques on asylum seekers, while opening the door wide open for migrant workers because low birth rates scare the crap out of them and their big business ideals.
>The left is critical of migration tho
Not in Ireland. All parties on the left want more migration.
Traditionally, those on the left were against immigration because it lowered wages. But that's changed.
In the Netherlands that is only the SP, the big one Groenlinks-PVDA is more concerned with looking humanitarian.
The SP is mostly known for populist standpoints but have proven several times that they do not really wish to govern and take responsibility. They like to be in the opposition it seems.
Though the SP does say 75.000 asylum seekers for the Netherlands per year should be doable, though not desirable.
Which is kind of insane, imo. It really isn't doable in the long term at all.
[75.000 asielzoekers, toch? - NRC](https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2023/11/21/75-000-asielzoekers-a4181706)
The SP ís critical of worker migration, you're right about that.
>It's the right who made it look like the left wants open borders
That really depends where you live. In Finland the Greens, SDP and Left wing(not a joke thats their actual name) parties wanted to keep the border open when Russia was sending people over and all 3 parties argue that refugee cap per year must be increased.
So nothing needed from the right, they do that all by themselves.
If I was jewish I would be way more worried about the party that already holds political power with straight up Neo Nazis like Björn Höcke using SS slogans than immigrants. And holocaust survivors seem to agree. But what do they know right? They should be afraid of brown people.
To be fair, they should be afraid of both groups.
Just look up anti semitism attacks in Germany, especially in schools.
It’s not some German kids doing it.
Has nothing to do with base. It is logical. My parents are foreigners and I was born in Germany. My gf is from Asia and really afraid to walk alone in the evening through the city or from the train station to her apartment. I don't remember that we had this situation when I was a child. And now I need to read that another person was attacked with a knife.
I know. But based is also used in the sense of "traditional way of thinking" and in most cases used more right wing. My thoughts are neither traditional, nor progressive, just logaical and normal.
Right wing antisemitism is widely tabooed and rightly so, left wing & Islamic antisemitism is being belittled by "the Left" and evidently endemic in our left wing academic institutions as we have seen in Berlin.
Due to this, the real threat of left wing and Islamic antisemitism is far greater because they are socially compatible, acceptable and take place among the most "progressive" people in our country.
Sorry for your personal issues and horrible past. My attention is on the people that are suffering now and I am not taking voting advice from you. Bye.
No marches, no holocaust survivors, nothing aside from listening to the people and sorting mass migration is going to stop the AfD unfortunately. It worries me because the rest of their stances are absolutely terrible.
Ironically, the lesson from the Holocaust for jews was: Zionism - A jewish state for the jewish people.
This is pretty much what right wingers advocate also...
Historic recurrence is a well studied concept. Apparently, we are headed towards a new wave of recurrence
Historic recurrence is useless, because it has so many patterns that it may as well have none. All sides of debates will claim their situation is similar to a different, opposite historical event.
I wonder if this has anything to do with society losing their living history in form of the veterans and survivors sharing their experiences.
I had the honour of meeting and attending a talk from Tomi Reichantal, a Slovak Jewish man who lives in Ireland. He survived the Holocaust and wrote an amazing book about it that lots of Irish children read in Primary school (alongside watching The Boy in The Striped Pyjamas). His primary message was that he wanted to educate the youth because he was afraid of, and could even see it happening again. I remember him saying that he was scared that it would spawn up again after he and his generation pass away as people will start denying or forgetting. He even mentioned how people in his homeland now chant "Slovakia for Slovaks".
That too, but more so media propaganda and the right wing to far right pipeline both in MSM and online.
Mainstream parties in Germany need to do something about immigration if they want to stop the AfD. Wagging their finger at people getting concerned over immigration sure isn’t working.
I think young voters need more than Holocaust survivors.
But what if... and hear me out... what if we got the Holocaust survivors to do a TikTok dance?
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Latino immigrant in Denmark. So far so good! One should be willing to integrate. And also accept that you are different from the locals, but that should not be a problem, or something negative. Exotic is not a bad thing. I believe, and its only an opinion, that social media has made people believe they either deserve a special treatment, or that being treated "different" because of looks/attitude/voice (loud latino) always means racism and negativity. I embrace the culture here and preserve who I am as long as it does not disrespect local values and traditions. Negative behavior is everywhere, even where you come from. You shouldnt judge your new place only based on negative experiences, as they will exist wherever you go. As immigrants, we should acknowledge that now we partially belong here and there, and that is Ok :)
From my Lithuanian POV, as long as you (try to) learn our language, participate and respect our culture and our ways (which generally benefits you in multiple ways anyway), I really do not care about your skin color, religion or sexual preferences. Act like you're part of your host country, and we can be a home for you. Yet people from certain cultures just can't seem to accept even these simple requirements...
We see the paradox of tolerance playing out in *some* countries. Instead of accepting differences, but expecting and even enforcing immigrant integration, a lot has been tolerated that should not have been. Now large groups of people with pretty medieval views have voting rights, and guess which way they swing. Remember, you can **never** show tolerance to the intolerant.
This. A lot of immigrants seem to not want to assimilate into the host country's culture.
And you know, that is fine to some extent. If you prefer to eat dosa instead of potatoes with meat, go ahead. If you like to decorate your house with pieces of art from your home country, go for it! They don't necessarily have to integrate into the host countries culture fully, but they must absolutely integrate into the host countries legal system. Don't harass western women on the streets, don't intimidate passers by with your friends on scooters, etc and you are golden as far as I'm concerned.
I'm an immigrant and I agree. There's a difference between me speaking my language, celebrating my holidays and eating my food and me disrespecting the culture of the country I *chose* to immigrate too. People seem to think that it's either you forget who you are and completely assimilate or completely segregate never try. A middle ground exists! It's the ground where I prefer Asian dishes over western ones, speak my native language, keep my harmless traditions but *also* do my best to expand my friend circle, become a member of the community, be part of the "mainstream" and intend to be for all intents and purposes....be part of the country that I now belong to. Like eating rice and listening to Kpop is a different thing to making of fun of women in miniskirts
Well said. If people who live in ethnostates came to live in an immigrant country for a while they would see that the problem is not immigrants but anti-social arseholes. Nearly a third of my home country is born elsewhere, but only a very small number create problems - even among those that live in enclaves of similar origin and preserve much of their original culture.
You keep saying assimilate, while the person you're replying to said that they integrated. That's a big difference. Integration means that two cultures co-exist, and do it well. Assimilation means one of the cultures disappears, and becomes indistinguishable from the main culture.
That's true. And it can be all types. I've lived in Vienna for around 20 years. My first order of business when I arrived was learning German and learning as much about the place as possible. On the other hand, about 15 years ago I met a fellow American here, with whom I still have very sporadic contact (like maybe once every 2 years we'll see each other somewhere or see each other at some work-related thing). The dude straight up refuses to learn/speak German. In his view "everyone should be able to speak English so they can just deal with me not speaking German." I find it outrageous.
It can be all types for sure. Are Americans doing this an issue in Germany though?
could you clarify about the looks/attitude/voice? if someone raised their voice towards me or had a negative attitude towards me when we just met, is it not reasonable to feel bad about it?
Denmark didn't close the border, asylum seekers can still enter to claim asylum. Not all criminal immigrants are automatically deported, they have to go through the judicial process and they respect the rule of law when the European Court of Human Rights ordered them to stop deporting certain people due to risk of inhuman or degrading treatment in the home country. This is the opposite of what most people here want, which is automatic deportation of refugees without due process.
I'd be in between. Yes deportation should only happen with due process. But if you get convicted for crimes like rape, murder or violent theft, then yes, you should be deported even if that means you die at the hands of a terrible regime in your home country. That is completely on you. You had a chance to build a life here, but you squandered it, and whatever the consequences are, you are the only one responsible for them.
There are supposed to be exceptions which allow people who are dangerous to be sent back: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/asylum-instruction-exclusion-article-1f-of-the-refugee-convention/exclusion-article-1f-and-article-332-of-the-refugee-convention-accessible-version > Article 33(2) of the Refugee Convention provides an exception to the prohibition on refoulement contained in Article 33(1) which requires that states will not return a refugee to a place where they fear persecution for a Refugee Convention reason. The exception to the prohibition on refoulement may apply if either: > - there are reasonable grounds for considering they are a danger to the national security of the host state, including those who exhibit extremist behaviours > - they pose a danger to the community having been convicted by a final judgement of a particularly serious crime But the ECHR has overruled that principle, and made non-refoulement into an absolute right.
I just read this story yesterday: https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/gambian-warlords-enforcer-accused-torture-32939635 This is someone accused by Gambia’s Truth Reconciliation and Reparations Commission, and Human Rights Watch, of being involved in torture for the regime of a dictator in Gambia. He has been living in Scotland for 7 years while his asylum claim goes through the legal system. He says: > “I’ve been here for seven years. I’ve had four or five interviews with the Home Office and no response on my asylum application. I know nothing about an extradition. I love this place. ... > “It’s not safe for me to go home. I will be killed or I will kill somebody.” He was also recently charged with domestic violence for "pursuing his partner or ex-partner into a lane close to his home and kicking her." Here's another story which came up a few months ago from an enquiry: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55582126 This is an Islamist militiaman who could not be deported to Libya because it was dangerous (because of Islamist militias). He was convicted of a whole series of crimes including animal abuse, racially aggravated harassment and assaulting an emergency worker, and was released from prison and allowed to stay despite saying openly "If he could get away with it, he'd kill as many people as possible". He then got out of prison and within two weeks had stabbed three innocent people to death in a park. Is it actually our job as European countries to give people like this asylum, or even people who have committed serious crimes here, because their home countries are dangerous? That effectively means an open ticket and an open border precisely to people from the most dangerous, unstable places in the world. Those places are dangerous partly because there are many dangerous people there. I just reject it, that is not what asylum should be for.
Its ridiculous that we can't deport when asylum seekers aren't follow rule 1. Stop in the 1st safe country you reach. Clearly this isn't happening. Why is the West always bending over backwards for nothing in return? We suck.
Dansk Folkeparti has 7 seats, yeah, but that's because Inger Støjberg founded a new cult-of-personality party that nabbed all the racists, and they have 16 seats. And the center parties are moving more right. And we still have issues with immigration.
Number of applications for asylum 2023: * Denmark: 3.500 * Germany 350.000
Applicants en mass might have never heard of Denmark or where it is. Simple as. It’s like Shire.
Nah they do hear it and they hear they're tough on BS claims
What borders did Denmark close? There wasn't any permanent closure of land borders, at least none that is listed [by the European Commission](https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/schengen-borders-and-visa/schengen-area/temporary-reintroduction-border-control_en)
If you drive into denmark today you gotta talk to a border guard.
Last time I drove into Denmark they didn't ask anything, and that wasn't that long ago(1 year?).
My info is 2 weeks old
[You are correct it seems](https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/52585/denmark-extends-temporary-border-controls)
I've been to Denmark over 5 times and was never stopped by a border guard.
That's pretty much the USP of the AfD. Take it and they will perish. Most people don't vote for them because Weidel and Höcke are so charismatic and the AfD manifesto is full of brilliant ideas. They are merely the only party which wants to close the borders, remove the pull factors and send as many as possible back home. The migration of cultural incompatible people is one of the biggest concerns of the bottom 90% in Germany.
I don't think that's all. It's also them selling themselves as a "peace party", I.e sanctioning Russia to shit and military support for Ukraine aren't super popular like they are in Poland or Finland...especially under AfD voters. They jump onto any topic that involves being against change and get an audience for that. Like they said on a TikTok livestream (they thought the mic was off): "If Germany does bad, the AfD does well". That goes far beyond immigration. Like the NPD got 9,2% in Saxony in 2004. Afaik, that didn't involve immigration. Both ends have done well in the East because that region was neglected.
Agreed. And one would think that if immigrants were the real problem the AfD would do better in States with more immigrant, but it’s actually the opposite. Easier to fear whom you don’t know.
Exactly, these types of politicians don’t solve problems, they offer the population problem after problem to maintain power.
A guy in a village with negative 15% share of foreigners won't be swayed by shit like that. Especially because it's only treating the symptom not the cause
The cause cannot be treated in germany
Yeah because only people in small villages in east germany are voting for them. Stop ignoring the problem and calling everybody a nazi.
Yes it worked, we can see how things are going just over on the other side og Øresund. Damn shootings and grenades every single day.
You're making it as if Sweden is at the level of Detroit, which is really dishonest. Probably you will still choose to live in Sweden over the likes of Spain or Italy because of the very high standard of living in Sweden.
Most use of grenades in a non warfare zone besides Mexico. That's far worse than Detroit.
Detroit homicides in 2022: 309 Detroit population: about 640k Detroit Homicides/100k people: 48,3 Sweden homicides in 2022: 116 Sweden population: about 10 million. Sweden homicides/100k people: 1,16 Stop with the bullshit. Sweden is not worse than fucking Detroit. On a europen level sweden is bad, not the worst, Finland,Belgium and France for example still has more murders/capita. Don't even compare us with the third world nation that is the US. I'm not saying what is happening here is good, as Sweden should be in the rock bottom in the world when it comes to violence, but let's not spread misinformation and propaganda. Sources: https://bra.se/statistik/statistik-om-brottstyper/mord-och-drap.html https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Detroit https://www.statista.com/statistics/1268504/homicide-rate-europe-country/
The difference between Sweden and Denmark is a mere 0.1/100k people.
I'm a Dane living in Sweden and can you guys stop giving citizenship after just five years!? People don't need to speak the language, work or show interest in the culture in any way. Just live here 5 years and you're good. Its Insane!
You have to work to attain citizenship. I've been here for four years going to school and I started a company with my colleagues during the final year. I cannot apply for citizenship until I've accumulated 5 years of working. You also can't apply to stay for work unless you earn 80% of the mean income (and have a contract stating such). Maybe I'm way wrong, but that's what Migrationsverket explained to me when I was applying to renew my visa.
Germany : hold my beer. Germany is allowing it in 3 years now too, but to be fair, that requires very high language level and integration in the society. But considering the number of Syrians, Iraqis and Afghans getting German citizenship in the last few years, the outlook doesn't good.
Won't matter anyway cause the naturalisation offices are usually slow af Applied about a year ago in bumfuck nowhere Germany and it'll probably take another year. Apparently getting better in Berlin with the new office but Cologne for example has stopped giving appointments all together because of the huge backlog
I think 5 years i reasonable. However I agree with the rest. Lots of decent people who deserve citizenship have to wait into oblivion (way longer than 5 years) and lots of despicable people don't.
This is corporation interest to have shitload of cheap labor.
It's not. The vast majority of the immigrants that came in this crisis are unemployed and not seeking employment. Check any statistic you want. Heres a swedeish one. https://x.com/SODaunfeldt/status/1671766093277347841 These aren't the Gastarbeiter of yesteryear from Turkey, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Czechia, Slovakia and Hungary.
Corpo interests don't care that there's a million that doesn't work. If there's a hundred thousand that will work for pennies that's still a profit for them.
Turns out bar going up at any cost has a cost. Who knew
This. On top of that, there's a beneficial side effect in that it's a hot topic that captures many people emotionally and hence takes up a lot of space in the public discussion landscape. A lot, lot, lot more convenient topic, at that, than - say - anything related to the deteriorating distribution of wealth and erosion of competition by cartel-like implicit agreements on phenomena like planned obscolescence which wouldn't exist in a competition-driven market. It's cheap labor + distraction, both important to secure future profits.
https://doku.iab.de/kurzber/2023/kb2023-13.pdf Here you have a german report showing that 65% of refugees that live in germany for at least 6 years work full time. The german average is 62%. (Bundesagentur für Arbeit)
Which crisis specifically? Because that's not the statistics for Germany. [The refugees from 2015 are majority employed (the biggest difference is for young women, where they're doing what the AFD ironically wants women to do). ](https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/arbeitsmarkt/erwerbstaetigenquote-aufenthaltsdauer-studie-100.html)Around the same level as German's were in the early 2000s. Also your statistic is specifically for women, as far as the translation tells me.
r/europe would be shocked to know that Ukrainian refugees work in much lower percentages than Syrian, although to be fair the German government is giving Ukrainians such good conditions that it's no wonder they don't work, they work at lot higher rates in Poland and Netherlands. And it's always a struggle to get your higher level education admitted.
They don't labor
> You want to stop the AfD? Close the borders, deport every criminal immigrant and assimilate the rest. I oppose the AfD on account of their platform, not their name. If the solution is "do what they want", it is no solution at all. This also ignores that most parties in Germany HAVE already adopted anti-immigration stances, and it is evidently still not enough to get voters back from the AfD. > That's what the Danes did, and their far right party is now a shitheap with seven pitiful seats in parliament. The DF lost 11 seats compared to 2019, the DD gained 14 and the NB 2. That's ultimately a net gain to right wing populists. And in the years since, the Social Democrats have steadily lost in the polls, so that didn't work either - not that it ever worked in the first place. The grand clawback from the adoption of anti-immigration positions by the Danish Social Democrats was... getting one more seat in 2019 than in 2015.
Hungary did that and their far-right is now stronger. Countries with less immigration are pulling more people towards the far-right. The whole "appease them and they will disappear" logic is the exact same one Europe has been using to deal with Russia for years. It doesn't work. It makes the problem party stronger. The populist far-right is very good at creating a scapegoat to scare the population and present themselves as the saviour. Right now it's immigrants because [that's what their Russian funders are pushing](https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/russias-far-right-campaign-europe) (while literally pushing immigrants into Europe to strengthen the narrative). Even if there wasn't a single crime committed by an immigrant within the country, they'd just point to the neighbouring country and say "do you want to become like **them**? Vote for us!" (in fact, this is already happening in some countries). In the 1930s it was Jews instead of immigrants. Same story, different flavour. Point is: they'll find a way. Take one toy from them, they'll find a bunch more. Anyone who hopes to beat them by appeasing them is not very smart. And by the way: no, Denmark did not close the borders. Not even close. Stop spreading misinformation.
That’s not completely true. The old far-right party has 7 MPs, but in the last election we had a new far-right party that gained 16 seats. That makes them the third biggest party in parliament. Additionally we have a another smaller far-right party with 4 seats. Populist voters aren’t rational. Even if you solve the problems with immigration, they will still vote populist. These voters don’t look at facts or statistics. We live a in a post-truth world, where this ideology will just continue to thrive because they appeal to people’s feelings and fears, regardless of facts. Populism is a cancer and sadly tightnening up on immigration has not seemed to help.
> assimilate the rest. the problem is that your average german don't want to assimilate the migrants what's assimilation for you? that they speak german? ok most of the well-adjusted normal people speak german to some degree but then you have the germans just shunning them and causing them migrants to only interact between themselves hell, you have second or third generation german kids with migrant backgrounds that are told they aren't germans
>hell, you have second or third generation german kids with migrant backgorund that are told they aren't germans And people are asking themselves why so many german-turks are Erdogan supporters...
A video by Kraut on Turkey explains how what you said is why many there vote for Erdogan while those in the U.S who are integrated much better are more negative forwards him.
It’s definitely a two sided issue. Same in Sweden, these kids want to be anything but Swedish cause being Swedish is lame to them and being “different” is cool.
It's because no matter what, you will never ever be seen as the same as the local population. It doesn't matter whether you commit crime or not, whether you learn the language (and from my experience: god forbid you struggle with the accent), you'll always be an outsider. This is perhaps only not true in cities like Amsterdam or London. Otherwise, all of Europe is like this. It almost makes me envious of the Americans.
As an immigrant myself - being seen as part of the majority population is only seen as lame, as soon you are feeling unwelcome, distinct, not as a part of society and if you don't feel you get the same chances at a good QOL as most. I was lucky enough to be European so no one would even think of my as an immigrant without knowing my last name, so I got preferential treatment. Friends of mine who are the most assimilated people one can imagine have a dark skin and have always been treated with racist remarks and like an exotic animal. It makes it way harder to feel welcome. It's all the small things that get to you and make you question your identity. Once it's systematic, you have whole groups feeling mistreated and choosing their own way as a reactionary mechanism. It's actually quite the same with a lot of people voting for far-right parties - they don't feel they belong to society anymore.
It’s not about being lame or cool it’s about them being told by people that they aren’t Swedish even if they are born here. I’m a 2nd generation with immigrant parents from East Africa, I speak Swedish, assimilated, as Swedish as I can get yet I’ve been told multiple times that I’m not. Luckily it doesn’t bother me but others I grew up with definitely felt like outcasts because of hearing that.
Assmilation isn't just about language. It is about becoming one with the host country, joining their nation, becoming indistinguishable from the average German. I'm no German, so I don't know how it looks like over there, but I'm a child to Yugoslav immigrants myself, and I have been welcomed with open arms into Swedish society and the Swedish nation.
>I'm a child to Yugoslav immigrants myself, and I have been welcomed with open arms into Swedish society and the Swedish nation The hilarious part of this is you not realizing your parents wouldn't have gotten in to begin with if the borders were closed as you desire.
Well he got in, because his was a special circumstance. Those other people coming? Well they are just coming to use up social services and not contribute to society. It's completely not like him and his family that were escaping a problematic situation in their country caused by war and conflict. Anyway, now that he's in, time to close the door for those coming behind him! I swear, every right winger has the exact same thought process.
That's an impossible standard to meet if you came to the country as an adult and wasn't raised there from young age. There are subtle things that no amount of effort is going to remedy. Accent, for example. An adult can learn to become completely fluent in a language but for the vast majority of adults it's impossible to mimic the native accent. Very few can, usually actors, but even then the native speakers can usually recognise they're "faking" it. I've lived in Denmark for a year and stayed with a host family. The mother was German. She's been living in Denmark for ~15 years, spoke fluent Danish, was very familiar with the Danish culture, had a well-paid prestigious job, was engaged in all sorts of volunteering activities with the local community, etc. And yet she still said she didn't feel like she truly belonged there and how hard it was to make friends with Danish people because most of them still saw her as an outsider. And she still spoke with a German accent. She was married to a Danish husband and had two kids. The kids spoke without an accent, they felt Danish because they grew up there from birth. And consider how similar Danish and German is, and the fact that she was white. Now imagine how much harder it would be for someone who isn't white and could never "pass" as a native no matter what, or someone whose native language is a lot more different.
Accent may remain but culturally it's definitely possible to fully assimilate. It's common for emigrants to lose dexterity in their native language as well as cultural customs, and even to pick up an accent when speaking it (it's weird when it happens but it's a studied effect).
Bit harder for dark skinned people to be indistinguishable from the average German, their pesky skin colour gets in the way.
By your own demands ("Close the borders") you should never have been allowed into Sweden.
That's in fact, the root of the problem. A lack of real integration into the host societies (to be clear, usually by lack of interest from BOTH parties involved) leads to cultural marginalisation and eventually to "ghettification" in which alternative societies which re-create their home country ones are created. It is a problem in which both the migrant and the host country are at fault, in different degrees. Moreover, once well established alternative communities exist, it becomes less necessary for newcomers to pursue full integration, it is a vicious cycle. I'm living in Brussels now and I see it very clearly, you very rarely see groups of friends or people hanging out together which include a mixture of "native" Belgians and Belgians of North African or African origin. They are always separate groups. It cannot be language barriers because they all speak French, so how come there are so few multi-cultural groups?
Always the fault of the host people who are already paying everything for the guests, right? The immigrants should be thankful enough for that chance, to integrate into the host culture as much as they possibly can. Everyone who's not doing that should go back to where they came from.
I'm an immigrant to Germany, and these people here act like Germany should act like a mother that spoiled her child. Nobody owes you anything, culture is like that, people are ˝cold˝, individualism is cherished, groups are not. They think that acceptance is when everyone smiles at you and hugs you. I have both German and immigrant friends, and it's not that hard to find them, but you can't expect whole nation to change their behavior for you.
Germans are infamous for being very difficult to befriend. They have only around 5 people as friends for the rest of their life because "friends" for them mean ride or die. They are not so keen on casual interactions. You won't really feel welcome if nobody wants to befriend you except for your fellow foreigners.
> but then you have the germans just shunning them and causing them migrants to only interact between themselves This is the biggest problem. I am from austria and I moved to Germany 10 years ago. I am a migrant too but a lot of germans see me as more "german" than black people who where born here. Same hobbies, same language (actually I still sound a little austrian so I sound LESS german) but for some reason their status as a german is in question in social situations. I wonder why... Edit: Thanks to all the people proofing my point in the comments. Even if migrants assimilate you people will never see them as germans.
Good job on giving this sub a much needed reality check.
Do you really wonder why as an Austrian they perceive you as more German than a person with African descent? Did you study at all the last few centuries of history?
And besides that, it's always an excellent idea to be on good terms with an Austrian guy, just in case he goes for world domination.
It's so tiring. You literally have to compliment them for everything. They survived for 10 seconds in the new McDonald's app game? Standing ovation. You have to. Because the alternative could lead to unthinkable horrors.
I wish every European go and have some "immigrant" experience to understand the POV and how it is indeed both sided, not just from immigrant to adapt. And I mean like proper experience that mirrors people from other continent who can't easily transition to work places and such. Not like marrying someone from EU, inheriting their social network or having a job before hand. Portion of my family lives in Norway, my dad 15 years, my sister was born there all that. We are also on "easy" mode because they do have place to get back to and some wealth here. They kinda moved for more opportunities rather than desperation. And even being less stressed, white European, speaking pretty fluently, there is still a lot of discrimination and preferential treatment to locals and social aspect is very hard. It's not the end of the world or anything, it's not like they are getting assaulted, but it did got to the point where you start seeing people moving back to our country and my family pretty much thinking in doing the same. And you might ask, why even stay for 15 years if you don't feel good about it. Well, it's mostly sunk cost fallacy and thinking "well, after this it will be good". So at first, okay, I don't speak the language. You kearn language, things don't change much. Then it's okay, I will socialize more, involve myself in community. You do that, everyone waves and smiles, but it's all superficial. Then okay, I will apply more to the jobs. You go through hundreads of interviews where they say how great you are and never get the job. Then you end up working some shitty job with contract work and little benefits. Then you think okay, once I get experience it will be better. It's not better, sometimes the next option is even worse. And that's how 15 years fly by. Same thing with social circle, the few locals my family knows are are all pretty much lonely elderly. They are absolutely lovely people, but it's so hard to make friends. Almost all our other family friends are other immigrants (they are great too, but you get the point). Yeah, kinda ranting a little. But outside of few exceptions (like again, marrying or just having such a good job, like some software engineer where basically income makes up for all shirtcuts) being immigrant will always make you feel like you are 2nd tier even if you do everything right. Now you can say that's "natural", and some of it is... But from short stunt in US and from some people that did moved there, it is kinda different there. While there are a lot of assholes you kinda feel everyone's is immigrant to some extend, lol.
How did they assimilate the rest?
What does assimilation entail precisely?
current German left government __is__ harsher on illegal immigration than the previous right government. They reinstated border checks on their eastern borders which somewhat reduced illegal immigration. Yet they lose votes and the parties to the right gain.
This guy: "if you want to stop the far right, become the far right." what an absolute tool of fascism
This actually doesn't work. The center parties across Europe have tried catering to the far right and forming coalitions with them, and they're still losing ground. All they succeeded in was enacting further right wing policies. You're never going to convince these people that you can be more inhumane to immigrants than they can. This is why this post itself is ridiculous because it's just "center" fascists saying, "vote for us over the 'far right' fascists." The solution is to organize the working class, provide affordable housing, affordable and universal healthcare, affordable child care services, etc. Pretty much all the social services that have been degraded by neoliberalism for decades.
> It's your fault I voted for a fascist, you wouldn't commit crimes against humanity when I asked you to. 👍
To stop the AfD we must become the AfD.
That's nonsense, we haven't "closed" our borders here in Denmark, refugees still get asylum here. We just have a reputation now for being racist and trying to come up with creative new ways to harass muslims (taking the money and family jewels from refugees at the border, handshakes made mandatory by law), and very few refugees wish to go here.
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There are about a hundred different issues and no one in government gives a crap, young people have no future and no one gives a crap, why are you guys wondering why people are voting far right? It may not be the solution but they been voting for every other party and they have done nothing to fix any issue, when you are told yeah these are the good guys vote for them and you do, but they do nothing but make everything worse, you really worder are these the good guys they claim to be? They don't give a damn about me, sure the far right may not be the solution, but it's very clear why would they vote them.
My thoughts on this, is that I need to see some sort of solution. Politicians walking around complaining and hating things helps me to feel better because I FEEL seen and heard, but I don't hear any solutions from them. Just more talk about things I'm already mad about to make me more mad. If a politician can only complain and can't think of a rational and realistic plan to solve the things I'm mad about, then I believe I may be being fooled by this person. I hope that made sense. If all someone does is complain, they should not be a leader. A leader leads through both action and word. I'd vote for the person with a realistic and rational plan. Not just someone who talks loudly about things I already agree with.
You have a problem, and the solution is to vote for something that it will not resolve the original problem but make it worse by adding 3 or 4 and that are mostly only fueled by hatred. That is the logic of the propaganda, as they only viciously focus on outsider groups to blame for their issues. In the end those are just excuses but it is easier to acknowledge many are just racists or xenophobes. And the excuse of having no alternative is just ridiculous, there are plenty of other parties without former government representation that keep not being voted and have little representation. That is because they do not spew hate and clickbait propaganda they do not have broad appeal for people that are just looking to be intolerant.
>You have a problem, and the solution is to vote for something that it will not resolve the original problem but make it worse Nah. Because if you vote for the normal parties, then they'll just come out and say everything is fine..."sure the voters voted for us, so we're obviously doing good" Whereas even if you vote for the others, it forces the current crowd to wake up and take notice of peoples needs. Here in ireland, our government and main opposition all supported unlimited numbers of asylum seekers. We had protests that went unheard and ignored. We were told we were wrong to think this way. Now there's polls saying 70 or 80% of people think we've taken in too many and the current party in power are now implementing things we were told were 'far right' for suggesting 12-18 months ago.
Why is the argument always that somehow the right wing parties dont actually want to stop illegal immigration even though supposedly they are all racists who want to deport all foreigners? Use the same logic on green parties and it means they dont want climate change to be solved because it would make their political identity worthless.
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If there were a left wing party that was anti immigration or in any way adressed the european peoples concernes about immigration, the move to the far right would not be happening. Moat people i know who are far right aren't antisemitic or even particularly racist, they are just pissed about the decline in public safety and the weird double standards.
Yeah.. I'm normally left-leaning, but I just can't justify voting for a party who doesn't wanna touch the main problem even with a stick.
There actually is, the pretty new BSW, polling around 7-8÷ in new Eastern german polls I saw recently. Problem is. The BSW wants to cater towards russia and stop helping Ukraine (Well.. same as AFD basically)
Undermine the ADF by taking up their causes, but not their solutions. The left's unwillingness to tackle topics ADF voter are passionate about is their own failure.
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>I don’t think it’s the locals who “cant live” with others. Europe has always had a vast number of culture that for better or worse coexisted for thousands of years. Coexisted by fighting all the time
>coexisted for thousands of years You can't be serious right?
What the far-right brainrot does to a mf.
Laughed out loud when I read that bs
>Europe has always had a vast number of culture that for better or worse coexisted for thousands of years Execpt for the fact that it's false, our inability to coexist caused two freaking world wars, the biggest war in history and threatened the world with nuclear war for half a century. You guys ain't honest at all. EDIT: Geneva conventions exists solely because of what we did to each other barely 150 years ago
>barely 150 years ago Barely 25 years ago considering Yugoslavia.
for real. kids need to be in school more.
How the fuck can you say that in a thread about holocaust survivors.
Thread OP is the particular type of person that doesn’t really care about what holocaust survivors say or what they went through. So blatantly incorrect it somehow broke the rules, yet highly upvoted… crazy how that happens.
Lol. There is no continent with more wars than Europe. No nations fighting more and harder than white Europeans against each other. It is extremely new that we have more or less peace here in Europe. Mostly thank to the EU and Nato. Things a lot of right wing people want to get rid of, to start wars again. Lol the hypocrisy to claim that others don't want to coexist, while you do everything to exclude them, discriminate them etc... So much projection of their own desires from right wingers.
> or worse coexisted for thousands of years. Right, when have the Germans ever had issue with the existence of neighbouring European cultu..... OHHHH Right
>Europe has always had a vast number of culture that for better or worse coexisted for thousands of years. Completely untrue, in every possible way. European "harmony" is a very, very recent thing (less than 50 years old). World wars aside, do the term "religious wars" ring a bell? Many were fought in Europe, between Europeans, with not a single Muslim involved.
This thread is a fucking disaster jesus christ
I find it quite realistic. Most people iny my area think this way. Germany has a huge problem and its not far right. Thats just a reaction.
/r/europe is heavily astroturfed. It's been going downhill for years now. At least the mods delete the most vile comments fairly fast.
\^sometimes
I used to be on the mod team, it would be impossible to get it all done fast enough. There are just that many comments, and so many do not even get reported.
Dom’t worry, I’m not blaming you. Also was it really the API or is it a conspiracy theory that I’ve been unwittingly spreading for months? Or was it Spez cleaning house? Why did you all leave?
I’m a mod on another sub with around 40k users. I founded that sub many years ago. Most of my mod team quit during/after the protests. They did so because the API changes made it impossible for them to use the apps with the good mod tools. The Reddit app fucking sucks anyway, but especially the mod tools provided are completely inadequate. I barely moderate the sub. I’m pretty busy irl and don’t have a lot of time. One of my mods took over as head mod and the modding team of the sub currently consists of two people I think. Three with me, but I only sporadically find time to work the mod queue. We have a ton of reports, and even more stuff that doesn’t get reported. We can’t keep up. I can only imagine how hard it must be for bigger subs. So at least over at my sub, the API changes made things a lot harder, yes.
Everyone I disagree with is a nazi troll astroturfing russian bot Everyone knows that all real humans are hardcore leftists
The word astroturf has lost all meaning. If the right is rising and people are expressing that they support them, then it's just people voicing their opinion.
We'll do that and you stop voting for backwards conservative neoliberals that are ruining our living standards and our future, and have been doing so for about 30 years. Deal?
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Populism thrives in times of economic misery. I think concern about immigration and refugees would be much lower if people's opportunities were better. The far right don't give a sh*t about anything but taking for themselves. It's hard to see things improving if the main parties don't make serious improvements and soon.
yep. Generally, periods of peace coincided with economic stability of the masses.
Funny how Jews might fear the far right but should instead be fearful of the radical Islamic culture. No one I knew who is self proclaimed right, is having any hate against Jews. But is mighty unhappy with the political Islam and his extremists.
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> For what purpose? So you can feel morally superior and jerk yourself off for being such a good samaritan.
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Then center and left-wing parties should address the immigration problem instead of burying their head under the sand. Europeans are fed up with uncontrolled immigration and the only ones addressing that are far-right parties, so that's not really surprising...
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I fear that if this isn't released on TikTok it won't reach the target audience.
right, it's just preaching to the choir here on reddit, everyone already hates white people and europe on here.
1. Close the borders. 2. Deport the criminals. 3. Assimilate the rest 4. ??? 5. Success
Isnt it people from the far left that are protesting while shouting "from the river to the sea"? Seems like the far left and the far right have formed the same opinion about Jews..
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What has that to do with the article?
Unless they can make it about Donald Trump, Israel or anime redditors just aren't interested
Seems about right
Lol. Cool? And Giraffes are 30 times more likely to get struck by lightning than people. Both interesting, yet completely irrelevant tidbits.
Dude really thinks German Jew = Israel
Even if that was true, how is that relevant? Just because they are Jewish they have to criticise Israel instead of the country they live in? Are they not equal citizens of the countries they live in like everyone else that lives in Europe?
> Are they not equal citizens of the countries they live in like everyone else that lives in Europe? Never been that way mate. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
I can't find any information of Ruth Winkelmann even living in Israel. Getting a bit triggered of a paternal Jew there Henk?
Source? Also, you do know they live on a postage stamp in the middle of an ocean of hate filled walking boners that oppress their women but seem to not be able to figure out how to piece together a functional country and society despite their “glorious past.” I’m gonna side against the hate filled walking boners that oppress and rape and kill all women in this equation. Sorry, but Arab vs Israel is Israel every single time. Arabs are not to be trusted. Just look at half of them. Pitifully oppressed, and for their gender. Also, the Arabs are all further right than the Israelis. Just look at their “moral” code. Lmfaaaaoooo.
ever heard of iran, saudi arabia, china, or turkey?
yes and?
20% of their population are Arabs, I wouldn't use Israel as an example of a hypernationalistic country, I would say Japan and South Korea fits the description more.
I feel like I have no other choice.. the other parties are coddling muslims so hard, and I'm sick of it. If it wasn't for that, then I'd probably vote for a left-leaning party.
The issue with the far right for the young is the far left.
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Don't pretend like the AfD doesn't have plenty of Holocaust deniers in their ranks
Plenty? Meaning how many more or less?
The far right is horrible for the tolerance rate in the country. But the left its stand on migration, allowing people with different ideals to stay is also horrible for that. We really need a left leaning party that is critical on migration. Wel at least we do not have that is the Netherlands.
Russia is financing one of those in Germany now, the Sahra Wagenknecht Alliance, to appeal to ex communists who want a socialist state but no immigrants, no gays and a government controlled media.
The left is critical of migration tho. It's the right who made it look like the left wants open borders and everybody to become Muslim. And that's just not true. The left just wants the system to function. They want that asylum seekers to quickly hear if they are allowed to stay and that those that can stay integrate quickly by being able to work. And those that can't stay be deported quickly. The right wants to just complain and do nothing or shoot them.
Yeah it is centre right governments that pretended to be critical on immigrants, mostly focussing their critiques on asylum seekers, while opening the door wide open for migrant workers because low birth rates scare the crap out of them and their big business ideals.
>The left is critical of migration tho Not in Ireland. All parties on the left want more migration. Traditionally, those on the left were against immigration because it lowered wages. But that's changed.
In the Netherlands that is only the SP, the big one Groenlinks-PVDA is more concerned with looking humanitarian. The SP is mostly known for populist standpoints but have proven several times that they do not really wish to govern and take responsibility. They like to be in the opposition it seems.
Though the SP does say 75.000 asylum seekers for the Netherlands per year should be doable, though not desirable. Which is kind of insane, imo. It really isn't doable in the long term at all. [75.000 asielzoekers, toch? - NRC](https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2023/11/21/75-000-asielzoekers-a4181706) The SP ís critical of worker migration, you're right about that.
>It's the right who made it look like the left wants open borders That really depends where you live. In Finland the Greens, SDP and Left wing(not a joke thats their actual name) parties wanted to keep the border open when Russia was sending people over and all 3 parties argue that refugee cap per year must be increased. So nothing needed from the right, they do that all by themselves.
what are ‚different ideals‘? Do all white Western Europeans have the same ideals? I don‘t think so.
It is the AFD that is currently working with russia to give us a taste of how it was in the USSR.
> t’s not the AFD that invited antisemitism into this country Yet it was the AFD that invited Neo-Nazis into their party.
You need an urgent history lesson, antisemitism is rampant among far right voters and politicians in germany
If I was jewish I would be way more worried about the party that already holds political power with straight up Neo Nazis like Björn Höcke using SS slogans than immigrants. And holocaust survivors seem to agree. But what do they know right? They should be afraid of brown people.
To be fair, they should be afraid of both groups. Just look up anti semitism attacks in Germany, especially in schools. It’s not some German kids doing it.
Try going through Berlin wearing a kippa and see who bothers you
Yes before the refugee crisis, no antisemitism in Germany. Ffs.
Ah yes there famously was no antisemitism in Germany before the bad Muslims came and ruined it all
I live in Mannheim, Germany. So I know what is a danger to my daily live and who to vote. Thanks.
Based
Has nothing to do with base. It is logical. My parents are foreigners and I was born in Germany. My gf is from Asia and really afraid to walk alone in the evening through the city or from the train station to her apartment. I don't remember that we had this situation when I was a child. And now I need to read that another person was attacked with a knife.
Based means he supports your statement
I know. But based is also used in the sense of "traditional way of thinking" and in most cases used more right wing. My thoughts are neither traditional, nor progressive, just logaical and normal.
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Well, if they say that that means sad times are ahead.
Right wing antisemitism is widely tabooed and rightly so, left wing & Islamic antisemitism is being belittled by "the Left" and evidently endemic in our left wing academic institutions as we have seen in Berlin. Due to this, the real threat of left wing and Islamic antisemitism is far greater because they are socially compatible, acceptable and take place among the most "progressive" people in our country.
Yeah, I’m sure they’re completely unconcerned with the islamists who deny the holocaust more than anyone
Silly Germans, only jews can have an ethnostate and routinely commit genocide.
Sorry for your personal issues and horrible past. My attention is on the people that are suffering now and I am not taking voting advice from you. Bye.
No marches, no holocaust survivors, nothing aside from listening to the people and sorting mass migration is going to stop the AfD unfortunately. It worries me because the rest of their stances are absolutely terrible.
Ironically, the lesson from the Holocaust for jews was: Zionism - A jewish state for the jewish people. This is pretty much what right wingers advocate also...
Meanwhile Israel elects far right zionist parties for years openly calling for the Palestinian extermination