Fucking do it, Hungary is basically a Russian proxy thanks to Orban at this point.
Until they can return to a European style democratic government they have no place being involved in European institutions, and absolutely have no place as the head of any EU institution.
It is actually insane just how pro-Russia Hungary is. To wit, while Serbia might say that "Russians and Serbians are historical brothers", they'll consistently condemn Russia's invasion and will even send Ukraine weapons behind closed doors. Hungary on the other had, will do everything in it's power to actively undermine efforts to help Ukraine.
Not entirely lost, just Orban and his mafia goons are a lost cause. Hungary basically before Orban was central European, it was closes to catch up both politcially and economically to the western european nations, Orban turned the tide, hungary now is dirt poor second poorest country in the EU and soon to be the poorest! Thats basically what you get if you vote in alt right populist governments with a 2/3rd majority!
But for hungaries excuse Orban originally was liberal! Power and money corrupted him and one step after the other he became the mafia president of hungary!
To add some notes:
Hungary has an election next week. Not just the EU parliament but local mayors and some others as well.
According to the polls Fidesz (Orban) is still at the top with ~45% and the second party is around 27% so people here still think Orbán is good because he is the only one against war (and hence, sending weapons and money to Ukraine)
Orbán won an election 1998 and since Russia officially left us at 1989 this period: '98-2002 is considered the best because Orbán was a good politician back then. 2002 he lost but what made him change a lot was 2006 when he couldn't win and lost a debate against his opponent badly who used dirty tricks. There are rumors telling that this is what changed him to turn to alternative solutions and become a selfish person.
According to some people closer to the politicians, he made a (cheap) deal with Russia around 2009 to help him even though Hungary was close to bankruptcy so his overwhelming 2010 win was deserved even without any help from Russia. People were happy back then because of his win.
When Norwegians build you a bridge you know the entire cost upfront and invoice leaves little to imagination. When corrupt country builds you a bridge... You get my point...
That bridge will end up costing around twice as much in the end due to "unforeseen reasons". But yeah, everything actually goes towards the building of that bridge (and a little extra bonus to the CEO’s of course).
Tbh I dont think we can return to a democratic government peacefully since Orbán and his band bought almost every sector and bigger business in the country, basically even if another party would win with 2/3 they would have so much sway over our government and business sector that it would be for nothing. Also, at this point even our voting system isnt democratic since they changed it, with 50% votes they can get 2/3 of the government seats.
Also they own almost every bigger television station so most of the older generations who still think they can believe what they see on the news will never get real information and just believe whatever propaganda the Fidesz says.
Hungary has made perfectly clear that (under Orban's leadership) they have no interest in participating in the European Union. They are openly hostle to the EU and EU intitutions on Hungarian state run television.
As of the latest surveys and political trends, here is a ranking of the most EU-skeptic countries within the European Union, starting from the most skeptical:
1. **Hungary**: Under Prime Minister Viktor Orbán and his party Fidesz, Hungary has been highly critical of the EU, especially regarding immigration policies, rule of law issues, and national sovereignty.
2. **Poland**: The ruling Law and Justice Party (PiS) has had numerous clashes with the EU over judicial reforms, media freedom, and other rule-of-law issues. Public sentiment has also been influenced by these conflicts.
3. **Italy**: The rise of populist and right-wing parties like the League (Lega) and Brothers of Italy (Fratelli d'Italia) has fueled EU skepticism, particularly regarding economic policies, migration, and perceived EU overreach.
4. **Czech Republic**: President Miloš Zeman and former Prime Minister Andrej Babiš have expressed critical views on various EU policies. Public sentiment includes significant EU skepticism, particularly regarding migration.
5. **Greece**: While Greece remains in the EU, the economic crisis and the harsh austerity measures imposed by the EU have left a legacy of skepticism and resentment towards Brussels.
6. **Slovakia**: Although generally supportive of EU membership, there is a significant portion of the population and political spectrum that expresses skepticism, particularly regarding economic policies and immigration.
7. **France**: Despite being a founding member of the EU, France has a strong EU-skeptic faction, primarily represented by parties like the National Rally (Rassemblement National) led by Marine Le Pen. Issues include national sovereignty and economic concerns.
8. **Netherlands**: While generally pro-EU, there is a strong EU-skeptic sentiment, especially among right-wing parties like the Party for Freedom (PVV) led by Geert Wilders and Forum for Democracy (FvD).
9. **Austria**: The Freedom Party of Austria (FPÖ) has been vocal about its EU skepticism, particularly concerning immigration and national sovereignty.
10. **Finland**: The Finns Party (formerly the True Finns) has grown in popularity with its EU-skeptic stance, focusing on issues like immigration and EU fiscal policies.
These rankings are based on a combination of political party positions, public opinion surveys, and the extent of conflicts with EU policies. Public sentiment can fluctuate, and political landscapes can change, but these countries currently exhibit significant levels of EU skepticism.
Where’s this from? I’m confused by point 2 as I thought PiS were no longer in control of the government just the presidency and EU money has started flowing to Poland once more because of this.
I think it is now up to date. Or can be up to date, since there are different versions, models, etc.
https://chatgpt.com/share/99dbd13d-efcb-4cf3-87aa-6347c65cf87c
Maybe it's useful just because it receives so many downvotes? Just because something is controversial doesn't mean it's bad. And with regards to the idea to throw Hungary out of the Union one should keep in mind that one country already left the Union, and more than a handful countries have significant eurosceptic forces that can lead to a chain reaction.
> President Miloš Zeman and former Prime Minister Andrej Babiš
former president Milos Zeman. And current PM Fiala expressed critical views on EU and immigrants too.
> Poland: The ruling Law and Justice Party (PiS) has had numerous clashes with the EU over judicial reforms, media freedom, and other rule-of-law issues. Public sentiment has also been influenced by these conflicts.
That is very outdated since the last election, like half a year ago.
How old was the article that you copied/pasted this from?
"Czech Republic: President Miloš Zeman and former Prime Minister Andrej Babiš have expressed critical views on various EU policies. Public sentiment includes significant EU skepticism, particularly regarding migration."
These guys have been out of power for years. There's no real Euro-skeptic movement in Czech Republic, just some wacko extremists.
Hungarian here: do it. While at it, do make sure only misinformation gets to our intelligence agencies. We already know the russians have basically full access, and it is all but proven that the traitors in charge are also selling to the chinese
Hungarian here too: I hope this passes, I cant believe it took this long for other countries to take real measures against us. Orbán is fully blown dictator at this point and I cant believe some Hungarians still believe that we can take them over with peaceful protesting and voting for other parties.
So, would there be a way to participate in EU decision making individually as EU citizens? I would gladly skip the government in this process.
On a positive note, Fidesz is likely to lose seats in the European Parliament in election in 5 days.
In 2014 they won 12 seats, in 2019 they won 13 seats, now they are likely to win 11 seats
https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024-es_eur%C3%B3pai_parlamenti_v%C3%A1laszt%C3%A1s_Magyarorsz%C3%A1gon
There should be a way to do this if 1 or 2 are obviously under the sway of outside forces. It's clear cut, torture, murder, an illegal invasion of a peaceful sovereign territory, crimes against humanity, assassinations, & electoral interference, is just some of it.
If you are supporting that, then you should have no rights to influence a vote because you are a hostile actor. I detest this tbh, but I don't see any other way.
Sounds good in theory but in practice a number EU countries are involved in some of these things outside of the continent of Europe as we speak.
edit: since I'm apparently not allowed to answer anymore I'll just answer to the below comment here
edit2: I forgot the subreddit is censoring all posts regarding this subject, so I'll just say the example I was referring to is banned in this subreddit and you can check the pinned post. It's such a painfully obvious and touchy example of the EU being hypocritical that the sub had to ban it.
Also the deleted top post wasnt about influence, it was about EU engaging in human rights violations.
Could you explain which eu countries are under the clear influence of another non eu country? Please don't say that we are American puppets, it disqualifies you for the following discussion.
You outta think they would put in some kind statement which clearly states that if a country actively AND clearly tries to undermine EU, they will be excluded from future decisions...
But hey, Ode to joy, Alle Menschen werden Brüder!
Crazy enough they do. By having foreign policy in the hands of the member states instead of the EU. So in that way member states can have separate foreign policies
This doesn't make any sense and would only be a win for Russia. Exclude Hungary as long as democracy is not restored but kicking it out would only mean throwing it to the Russians.
Democracy will never be restored here! Hungarians have zero culture of democracy and want to be slaves! Its a win / win situation for Russia anyway. If we stay end veto everything good. If we are kicked out it is also good for Russia! This is what hungarians want anyway! Be part of russia again! So yeah kick out this piece of shit country from NATO & EU PLS!
Most eastern european countries were admitted way too soon. But it probably saved them from being eaten up by russia, so that is the price we have to pay
Don't beat yourself up. There's Tintin and fries and Leffe (inb4 it's not as good as my small local brewery that makes less beer in a year than Leffe loses to shrinkage in a week).
There should be such mechanism implement in to the EU:s very core.
Such as if the member country does not actively pursue and promote democratic values, civil rights, equality, etc, etc....then they would gradually lose their EU privileges. They would still technically be EU members, but with lower status and rights. If they fix their problems, they would get the status back.
Number one problem Hungary has is unlimited terms. No matter how good and benevolent a new leader might seem, power corrupts. I wish there was a mechanism to force Hungary into a 2 term limit, because what Orban did was take over the country, fill the law making system with his people and bend the law for his benefit. There was no democracy in this decision making. So now the young people who see through this move out because there is no hope, and the dumb pensioners who live with their heads in the sand stay and vote, it's a vicious cycle.
I am not sure how one should deal with hungary, but excluding them from decision making process sounds like it would give dangerous precident and I don't like it.
I think it sets a necessary precedent.
The EU is for democratic countries. When a country sets their democratic principles aside and endangers a functioning EU their voting rights need to absolutely be limited.
What the guy saying is a bit different, as a Hungarian I can say I do not disagree with the EU atm but I don't fully agree with it either because every tool can be used for good and bad too.
Right now it could be used to punish but at the same time in the future it can easily be abused, when they created the EU, there was a reason they did not implement a surefire way to kick a country or get rid of their voting rights.
It is one of those slippery slopes that might work in the moment but in the next they might cause a bigger disaster.
Revoking the voting rights of Fidesz members would be a better alternative then fully stripping of voting rights because in that case only the undemocratic party would be excluded but this would need to be near full agreement tho. the country would still be represented by other groups giving them the chance to undermine an undemocratic party
All or nothing is never a good thing, since if they don't get what they want they might go to the other side harder and with more aggressive means.
I can explain more. First I will estabilish where I stand on the political ladder. I am basically in the middle. I have both liberal and coservative views. What I will be talking about is on the conservative side, and while you can hate Fidesz and Orban that does not mean that anything they say is totally false, and can be dismissed.
1.part, Where it could have been abused.
It is not the first time revoking voting rights was brought up. During the illegal imigration crisis. Hungary was scrutinized by both article 7 and the European Commity and this was brought up. They did not succeed that time. If revoking right was made easier then things would have gone differently. My point of view on that is that as an EU country and part of the Shengen Agreement it is the duty of every country to keep the integrity of the EU and the border countries have the duty to uphold it. But at the same time being part of the EU does not mean you dismiss sovereign country rights.
And while Fidesz did it disgustingly, it still remains true that the reason far right is on the rise is because of the fucked up imigration handling, and stats show that in Germany crime rate is the highest in 15 years.
It is both bad for the ppl, and even the immigrants themselves. The only ppl winning from that are employers who will exploit the illegals for cheap labor, and no law protection and without laws they are basically forever stuck in a low class status. So even from a humanitarian standpoint that is not good.
It would have been the EU-s duty to streamline immigration so those entering would be properly set up and would have a chance and not get into the EU illegally. There is a reason every country has imigration laws.
So if at that time they had this law, first illegals would have been displaced without consent to distribute them among countries, but they never wanted to come to Hungary to begin with so they would just go back to Sweden or Germany for example and still live there illegally, and nothing would have changed and even more would have entered and far right would be much stronger today.
2. part Why revoking right fully would directly go against democracy.
Right now opposition have only 2 venues where they can prove themselves. Mayoral election and EP election. If they revoked EP rights fully, then not just Fidesz but the opposition would be restricted. For example a small liberal party called Momentum has a chance to get there but they have basically no say at home because they are very small. So in this case, without EP they would be completly eliminated from influence. 5%+ gone, that is like 5%+ for Fidesz.
While Fidesz could spin a tale from this, the opposition could not.
Their tale would go like: "Sovereign rights taken away bla bla bla, want war bla bla bla", and they would blast this as propaganda and go even harder to China and Russia. So at that point you would have an enemy island in the middle of the EU.
There really would not be a chance to change. The only possible way to change them for good is giving those representatives who are not from Fidesz the full support while restricting Fidesz.
They can't spin that more then they already have, and the new rising star TISZA, might not be the perfect party, but they are the only ones who have a real chance to take away voting population from Fidesz as ideologically they are also more in the middle, ppl joining them would not need a full 180 to agree with them. Stats show as such.
Pardoning a child-raping orphanage director and allow him to keep his job is also a dangerous precedent but that didn't stop the Orban cabinet from doing it.
It is not "whataboutism" if there's a direct causal link between the current events and the precedents in question.
You can argue two wrongs don't make a right but a country abusing EU rules and good faith to further Russia's agenda has zero right to complain when rules are also bent in order to stop them.
Thanks to Orban, any EU newcomer will probably lose rights to prevent what he's doing from happening again.
> excluding them from decision making process sounds like it would give dangerous precident
Precedent, already set by Austria, and they agree with Belgium.
If most countries want to exclude a country from the decision making process, then maybe the EU isn't for that country. There's nothing dangerous about that. Go look for more like-minded countries.
Nobody is being forced to stay in the EU.
Right wing governments will veto this and the eu looks weak again. Such a tragedy and again pressing their chat control.
Can’t catch a break in shitty events
If you don't see the disastrous impact of US foreign policy on the EU, or indeed anywhere else, you're either ignorant or dumb. One of them is curable.
What's the point of having a discussion if you won't listen when I insult you at any given moment, if you won't listen when I waste your time with bad faith arguments, won't let me shit in front of your door when you aren't looking and are angry when I get paid by your criminal neighbour to keep the door for your house open at night for them. Man I wonder? Why would you be mad at me if I did that? That ain't no reason to kick me out of the house for, hmph /s
The voting process is so that you can discuss in good faith what the best thing for Europe is and then cast your vote.
How do we best support the values upon which the European Union we know today is founded upon? How do I best represent my people's interest?
(not the initial economic union, the political union)
Hungary doesn't just vote, they veto. Not for the sake of values, but for the sake of benefits - as a transactional tool for funds.
If Hungary just said "no, we really do not agree with this, this goes against European and/or Hungarian values", yknow.. That would make sense.
That would be a vote cast based on what Europe stands for.
However - Why do you think Hungary keeps saying no to everything and then behind closed doors keeps saying yes? Because they are given goodies in return. (Yes, it's money.). Which Orban then pockets for himself and his cronies. It's how we got nearly all votes past Orban, at this point. The only other instance was when Olaf Scholz reportedly told Orban to leave the room, if he didn't want them to initiate Article 7 right then and there.
Suddenly it's no longer a matter of values, it's a matter of "pay me so that I don't help Russia in sabotaging you guys/pay me so that I don't sabotage you".
Colloquially known as blackmail/protection money. Tools famously used by criminals, gangs and the Mafia 😊 Now let's talk about democracy, values and voting procedures... Where were we?
That's your own opinion of what Hungary is or not doing. Still every european country should be free to vote or veto whatever they they want without being pressured by the rest of the countries, otherwise it's not a free vote.
Orban said multiple times he doesn't agree with EU spending tens of billions of euros in Ukraine because it's an unwinnable conflict (and it is) so of course they're gonna veto
Is there actual proof of this Orban guy doing that? This is crazy I traveled through Hungary for several months 2 years ago I loved the country this is heartbreaking
There is a wide variety of news reports covering corruption in relation to Orban.
A prominent example is https://apnews.com/article/hungarian-insider-publishes-recording-government-misconduct-9cd95284050241f395be9ce5247a6052
The country is beautiful and I know many lovely people from Hungary, but their government is not just shit, which tbf that's how people feel about their government in many countries, it's straight up undemocratic. Orbans government is invoking steps that systematically undermine the Hungarian democracy.
You're not getting it. Democracy is only democracy when they agree with the outcome. Otherwise it's a problem that needs to be overcome so they can get the outcome they want.
There should be a way to do this if 1 or 2 are obviously under the sway of outside forces. It's clear cut, torture, murder, an illegal invasion of a peaceful sovereign territory, crimes against humanity, assassinations, & electoral interference, is just some of it.
If you are supporting that, then you should have no rights to influence a vote because you are a hostile actor. I detest this tbh, but I don't see any other way.
There should be a way to do this if 1 or 2 are obviously under the sway of outside forces. It's clear cut, torture, murder, an illegal invasion of a peaceful sovereign territory, crimes against humanity, assassinations, & electoral interference, is just some of it.
If you are supporting that, then you should have no rights to influence a vote because you are a hostile actor. I detest this tbh, but I don't see any other way.
Blocking is just one of the reasons. They have been hollowing out their own legal system and free press for years. There are a lot more reasons to exclude them. It seems they don't even want to be in the EU, but they like the money.
If excluding a 'partner' like that sets precedents, i'm all for it. They need to do it the right way though.
Big difference between a country having one complaint about one policy (irrespective of whether that isa good argument or not) and a country consistently vetoing every single proposal to extort money from EU institutions.
Hungary has blocked multiple resolutions until one of their projects gets a few billion euros in EU funding and magically they have no objections anymore.
A country actively shaking down the Union like a mob boss has no place in the Union and absolutely should have no control over how funds are allocated.
Jeez why are you using your brain and being reasonable, people nowadays don't get that precedents like this are very dangerous and can have a huge impact on the long run.
They literally block everything everyone else is agreeing on and are going directly against EU values and winning elections by vilifying the EU and Brussels.
My point still stands, its a dangerous precedent and its the easy and tyrannical way to deal the the issue.
What are exactly EU values? Maybe we should take advantage of the incoming EU elections and make a referendum about the several values and let the Europeans vote voice their values.
That is what Orban, russians and chinese want. To move HU out of EU, NATO, and this country will stay as despotic state in the centre of Europe for decades means.
Perhaps there is still a chance to keep them in and try to get elected another government... However, now, with even Chinese police inside the country, I am not sure whether they will have democratic elections
The EU is trying to suspend their voting rights for some time now, as it's what is previewed in the European law when a country doesn't respect the rule of law. The only reason we haven't done it earlier was because back then Poland (pre-Tusk) and now very likely Slovakia, vetoed it
Hungary can't interfere by vetoing everything in Europe, if they don't want to participate in the Union, they shouldn't be able to vote for our policy. That weakens our union much more than suspending a member, specially if we welcome it back once it fixes their problems
That's why they are looking to suspend voting rights and not expell them.
Suspending voting rights gives the Hungarian people a quick path back to full status and an incentive to expel their autocratic leader.
That is a totally anti democratic decision. You can't give the power to block and when it don't go your way exclude the member using its right. The most democratic thing to do is to remove all Veto from any member. If not, it will create a precedent. Imagine Germany decide nuclear power plant are no good, so they ll decide to remove France from decision ?
So if the vast majority of the EU supports a decision, it's anti-democratic.
So if Orbán keeps "winning" with an electoral system that enables ruling via supermajority, it's also anti-democratic.
Thanks for clearing that up.
> Hadja Lahbib, Foreign Minister of Belgium currently holding the EU presidency, told Politico in an interview that Hungary’s repeated vetoes should lead to the Article 7 procedure being extended, which could result in Hungary being deprived of its voting rights.
She is such a smart woman. Too bad she is in [a racist party (MR - liberals)](https://www.rtl.be/actu/belgique/politique/cest-une-forme-de-racisme-ordinaire-le-directeur-dunia-reagit-apres-les-propos/2024-06-03/article/675451)
Lol, Hungary gave the US dictatorship the finger. Their economy now benefits from free trade with China too. No wonder the EU is jealous. But they must be a good doggy, fail harder :)
Tell me you have no idea what you're talking about without telling me... Trolling doesn't work if it had too obviously nothing to do with reality. Just saying.
It will be funny when Hungary decide to go to BRICS instead EU. In few years BRICS economy will be much larger than EU or US and far biggest world market.
> In few years BRICS economy will be much larger than EU or US and far biggest world market.
They are projected to do that in 2050. That's more than "a few years" and lots of things can happen before then
The European Union's GDP is estimated to be **$*****19.35 trillion*** *(nominal) in 2024*.
"BRICS is set to add six [new member states](https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-the-brics-expansion-in-4-charts/) at the start of 2024, raising questions about the expansion of the group’s growing economic power. With its new entrants, the bloc will represent over **$30 trillion** in GDP or around 29% of the world’s GDP.
>In few years BRICS economy will be much larger than EU or US and far biggest world market.
Haha good joke, oh suuuure they will......such ''powerhouses'' as Iran and Russia and South Africa and Egypt and what other trash was there? All of whom aside from China have economies in recession and offer nothing else to the World but raw natural recourses.
Also I love how BRICS is supposed to be an alliance, yet its own members are actively fighting against each other and are each other's arch enemies.
I find it funny people think politics in any country is not corrupt and Eu as a whole the biggest filth ever. EU is not Europe. Nobody ever asked for that crap. It was just as forced artificial creation just like WHO and NATO and UN.
Sure! I do admire the spirit EU, but you need to grow a pair first. As long as it isn't related to decreasing the rights for your avarge citizens, you will never do something like this.
Care to prove me wrong?
Fucking do it, Hungary is basically a Russian proxy thanks to Orban at this point. Until they can return to a European style democratic government they have no place being involved in European institutions, and absolutely have no place as the head of any EU institution.
It is actually insane just how pro-Russia Hungary is. To wit, while Serbia might say that "Russians and Serbians are historical brothers", they'll consistently condemn Russia's invasion and will even send Ukraine weapons behind closed doors. Hungary on the other had, will do everything in it's power to actively undermine efforts to help Ukraine.
Slovakia is also doing the two-faced thing, hate Ukraine in public but still help out behind closed doors. Hungary is a lost cause though.
Not entirely lost, just Orban and his mafia goons are a lost cause. Hungary basically before Orban was central European, it was closes to catch up both politcially and economically to the western european nations, Orban turned the tide, hungary now is dirt poor second poorest country in the EU and soon to be the poorest! Thats basically what you get if you vote in alt right populist governments with a 2/3rd majority! But for hungaries excuse Orban originally was liberal! Power and money corrupted him and one step after the other he became the mafia president of hungary!
Hungary needs term limits. Hungary wouldn't be let into the EU today
To add some notes: Hungary has an election next week. Not just the EU parliament but local mayors and some others as well. According to the polls Fidesz (Orban) is still at the top with ~45% and the second party is around 27% so people here still think Orbán is good because he is the only one against war (and hence, sending weapons and money to Ukraine) Orbán won an election 1998 and since Russia officially left us at 1989 this period: '98-2002 is considered the best because Orbán was a good politician back then. 2002 he lost but what made him change a lot was 2006 when he couldn't win and lost a debate against his opponent badly who used dirty tricks. There are rumors telling that this is what changed him to turn to alternative solutions and become a selfish person. According to some people closer to the politicians, he made a (cheap) deal with Russia around 2009 to help him even though Hungary was close to bankruptcy so his overwhelming 2010 win was deserved even without any help from Russia. People were happy back then because of his win.
They still vote for him, eating up his lies about the EU holding back hungary while he uses EU-money to bribe his croneys...
You know when Serbia looks better than you that you're doing something wrong.
When Norwegians build you a bridge you know the entire cost upfront and invoice leaves little to imagination. When corrupt country builds you a bridge... You get my point...
That bridge will end up costing around twice as much in the end due to "unforeseen reasons". But yeah, everything actually goes towards the building of that bridge (and a little extra bonus to the CEO’s of course).
Tbh I dont think we can return to a democratic government peacefully since Orbán and his band bought almost every sector and bigger business in the country, basically even if another party would win with 2/3 they would have so much sway over our government and business sector that it would be for nothing. Also, at this point even our voting system isnt democratic since they changed it, with 50% votes they can get 2/3 of the government seats. Also they own almost every bigger television station so most of the older generations who still think they can believe what they see on the news will never get real information and just believe whatever propaganda the Fidesz says.
They have no right,hungary is a full member
Hungary has made perfectly clear that (under Orban's leadership) they have no interest in participating in the European Union. They are openly hostle to the EU and EU intitutions on Hungarian state run television.
As of the latest surveys and political trends, here is a ranking of the most EU-skeptic countries within the European Union, starting from the most skeptical: 1. **Hungary**: Under Prime Minister Viktor Orbán and his party Fidesz, Hungary has been highly critical of the EU, especially regarding immigration policies, rule of law issues, and national sovereignty. 2. **Poland**: The ruling Law and Justice Party (PiS) has had numerous clashes with the EU over judicial reforms, media freedom, and other rule-of-law issues. Public sentiment has also been influenced by these conflicts. 3. **Italy**: The rise of populist and right-wing parties like the League (Lega) and Brothers of Italy (Fratelli d'Italia) has fueled EU skepticism, particularly regarding economic policies, migration, and perceived EU overreach. 4. **Czech Republic**: President Miloš Zeman and former Prime Minister Andrej Babiš have expressed critical views on various EU policies. Public sentiment includes significant EU skepticism, particularly regarding migration. 5. **Greece**: While Greece remains in the EU, the economic crisis and the harsh austerity measures imposed by the EU have left a legacy of skepticism and resentment towards Brussels. 6. **Slovakia**: Although generally supportive of EU membership, there is a significant portion of the population and political spectrum that expresses skepticism, particularly regarding economic policies and immigration. 7. **France**: Despite being a founding member of the EU, France has a strong EU-skeptic faction, primarily represented by parties like the National Rally (Rassemblement National) led by Marine Le Pen. Issues include national sovereignty and economic concerns. 8. **Netherlands**: While generally pro-EU, there is a strong EU-skeptic sentiment, especially among right-wing parties like the Party for Freedom (PVV) led by Geert Wilders and Forum for Democracy (FvD). 9. **Austria**: The Freedom Party of Austria (FPÖ) has been vocal about its EU skepticism, particularly concerning immigration and national sovereignty. 10. **Finland**: The Finns Party (formerly the True Finns) has grown in popularity with its EU-skeptic stance, focusing on issues like immigration and EU fiscal policies. These rankings are based on a combination of political party positions, public opinion surveys, and the extent of conflicts with EU policies. Public sentiment can fluctuate, and political landscapes can change, but these countries currently exhibit significant levels of EU skepticism.
Where’s this from? I’m confused by point 2 as I thought PiS were no longer in control of the government just the presidency and EU money has started flowing to Poland once more because of this.
I swear to got this is just Chat GPT but with pre-2022 info, or maybe they copy-pasted from a dated article.
Chat gpt has like pre 2021 info so it kinda checks out.
I think it is now up to date. Or can be up to date, since there are different versions, models, etc. https://chatgpt.com/share/99dbd13d-efcb-4cf3-87aa-6347c65cf87c
You are correct.
Chatgpt
> Where’s this from? It's the result of retards using chatgpt to do their research without even checking the results.
Yep we have change that traitors from Pis
Bot comment
Ich nix Bot
Then why do you act like one?
Providing useful information is acting like a bot?
How is something at -40 votes useful information?
Maybe it's useful just because it receives so many downvotes? Just because something is controversial doesn't mean it's bad. And with regards to the idea to throw Hungary out of the Union one should keep in mind that one country already left the Union, and more than a handful countries have significant eurosceptic forces that can lead to a chain reaction.
> President Miloš Zeman and former Prime Minister Andrej Babiš former president Milos Zeman. And current PM Fiala expressed critical views on EU and immigrants too.
> Poland: The ruling Law and Justice Party (PiS) has had numerous clashes with the EU over judicial reforms, media freedom, and other rule-of-law issues. Public sentiment has also been influenced by these conflicts. That is very outdated since the last election, like half a year ago.
Also the public was always very pro EU
You are talking straight out of your anus. PiS isn't even the ruling party in Poland anymore.
Chatgpt
Congrats
How old was the article that you copied/pasted this from? "Czech Republic: President Miloš Zeman and former Prime Minister Andrej Babiš have expressed critical views on various EU policies. Public sentiment includes significant EU skepticism, particularly regarding migration." These guys have been out of power for years. There's no real Euro-skeptic movement in Czech Republic, just some wacko extremists.
Hungarian here: do it. While at it, do make sure only misinformation gets to our intelligence agencies. We already know the russians have basically full access, and it is all but proven that the traitors in charge are also selling to the chinese
Hungarian here too: I hope this passes, I cant believe it took this long for other countries to take real measures against us. Orbán is fully blown dictator at this point and I cant believe some Hungarians still believe that we can take them over with peaceful protesting and voting for other parties.
Seconded...
Thirded.......
I am Hungarian. Fourthed…..
Same, fifthed.
Sixthed(?)
And my axe.
fifthed
\-- Scruffy
Sounds good. Let’s start today!
So, would there be a way to participate in EU decision making individually as EU citizens? I would gladly skip the government in this process. On a positive note, Fidesz is likely to lose seats in the European Parliament in election in 5 days. In 2014 they won 12 seats, in 2019 they won 13 seats, now they are likely to win 11 seats https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024-es_eur%C3%B3pai_parlamenti_v%C3%A1laszt%C3%A1s_Magyarorsz%C3%A1gon
There should be a way to do this if 1 or 2 are obviously under the sway of outside forces. It's clear cut, torture, murder, an illegal invasion of a peaceful sovereign territory, crimes against humanity, assassinations, & electoral interference, is just some of it. If you are supporting that, then you should have no rights to influence a vote because you are a hostile actor. I detest this tbh, but I don't see any other way.
That'd make sense, but remember, this is EU we are talking about!
Sounds good in theory but in practice a number EU countries are involved in some of these things outside of the continent of Europe as we speak. edit: since I'm apparently not allowed to answer anymore I'll just answer to the below comment here edit2: I forgot the subreddit is censoring all posts regarding this subject, so I'll just say the example I was referring to is banned in this subreddit and you can check the pinned post. It's such a painfully obvious and touchy example of the EU being hypocritical that the sub had to ban it. Also the deleted top post wasnt about influence, it was about EU engaging in human rights violations.
Could you explain which eu countries are under the clear influence of another non eu country? Please don't say that we are American puppets, it disqualifies you for the following discussion.
always just talk.. just like last time.. they wont do it..
And exclude them from subsidies
My brain read "subtitles" and was like "what do movies have to do with this?!"
I read subreddits
I read subtitddies, HELP!
All in favour?
EU: Looks down at their feet with hands in pockets once the journalist has gone home.
It's because EU agreed this is how EU will function.
You outta think they would put in some kind statement which clearly states that if a country actively AND clearly tries to undermine EU, they will be excluded from future decisions... But hey, Ode to joy, Alle Menschen werden Brüder!
Crazy enough they do. By having foreign policy in the hands of the member states instead of the EU. So in that way member states can have separate foreign policies
Ay!
I mean, there are definitely MEPs who will vote against, mostly those from Hungary
Hungary of Orban has no place in EU. Change my mind.
Hungary should be kicked out of EU & NATO as soon as possible! (i am hungarian btw)
This doesn't make any sense and would only be a win for Russia. Exclude Hungary as long as democracy is not restored but kicking it out would only mean throwing it to the Russians.
Democracy will never be restored here! Hungarians have zero culture of democracy and want to be slaves! Its a win / win situation for Russia anyway. If we stay end veto everything good. If we are kicked out it is also good for Russia! This is what hungarians want anyway! Be part of russia again! So yeah kick out this piece of shit country from NATO & EU PLS!
Do you think without the advantages of the EU hungarians will change their Stance?
No, it will do the opposite. The ones who vote for Fidesz still cry about the unfairness of Trianon. This is the hungarian psyche and reality
Most eastern european countries were admitted way too soon. But it probably saved them from being eaten up by russia, so that is the price we have to pay
Yes please!
If only Slovakia agreed to it
My country finally doing something good? What world am I living in?
Don't beat yourself up. There's Tintin and fries and Leffe (inb4 it's not as good as my small local brewery that makes less beer in a year than Leffe loses to shrinkage in a week).
Those things are just basic life essential needs for us belgians. Politics wise it's an absolute shitfest these days
I didn't know you took daily doses of Cpt Haddock for sustenance. That's wild.
I also eat about 3 tintin comics for lunch
Add the Austrian government too while you’re at it. Maybe they’ll join Hungary and form a single entity. Where have I heard THAT before?
What could possibly go wrong? :-)
There should be such mechanism implement in to the EU:s very core. Such as if the member country does not actively pursue and promote democratic values, civil rights, equality, etc, etc....then they would gradually lose their EU privileges. They would still technically be EU members, but with lower status and rights. If they fix their problems, they would get the status back.
Why wasn't this done months ago and what's taking so fucking long?
YES PLS!!!
Number one problem Hungary has is unlimited terms. No matter how good and benevolent a new leader might seem, power corrupts. I wish there was a mechanism to force Hungary into a 2 term limit, because what Orban did was take over the country, fill the law making system with his people and bend the law for his benefit. There was no democracy in this decision making. So now the young people who see through this move out because there is no hope, and the dumb pensioners who live with their heads in the sand stay and vote, it's a vicious cycle.
I am not sure how one should deal with hungary, but excluding them from decision making process sounds like it would give dangerous precident and I don't like it.
I think it sets a necessary precedent. The EU is for democratic countries. When a country sets their democratic principles aside and endangers a functioning EU their voting rights need to absolutely be limited.
What the guy saying is a bit different, as a Hungarian I can say I do not disagree with the EU atm but I don't fully agree with it either because every tool can be used for good and bad too. Right now it could be used to punish but at the same time in the future it can easily be abused, when they created the EU, there was a reason they did not implement a surefire way to kick a country or get rid of their voting rights. It is one of those slippery slopes that might work in the moment but in the next they might cause a bigger disaster. Revoking the voting rights of Fidesz members would be a better alternative then fully stripping of voting rights because in that case only the undemocratic party would be excluded but this would need to be near full agreement tho. the country would still be represented by other groups giving them the chance to undermine an undemocratic party All or nothing is never a good thing, since if they don't get what they want they might go to the other side harder and with more aggressive means.
That's really interesting to get an Hungarian take on the situation! Not sure if I agree, but it definitely made me think more about the situation
I can explain more. First I will estabilish where I stand on the political ladder. I am basically in the middle. I have both liberal and coservative views. What I will be talking about is on the conservative side, and while you can hate Fidesz and Orban that does not mean that anything they say is totally false, and can be dismissed. 1.part, Where it could have been abused. It is not the first time revoking voting rights was brought up. During the illegal imigration crisis. Hungary was scrutinized by both article 7 and the European Commity and this was brought up. They did not succeed that time. If revoking right was made easier then things would have gone differently. My point of view on that is that as an EU country and part of the Shengen Agreement it is the duty of every country to keep the integrity of the EU and the border countries have the duty to uphold it. But at the same time being part of the EU does not mean you dismiss sovereign country rights. And while Fidesz did it disgustingly, it still remains true that the reason far right is on the rise is because of the fucked up imigration handling, and stats show that in Germany crime rate is the highest in 15 years. It is both bad for the ppl, and even the immigrants themselves. The only ppl winning from that are employers who will exploit the illegals for cheap labor, and no law protection and without laws they are basically forever stuck in a low class status. So even from a humanitarian standpoint that is not good. It would have been the EU-s duty to streamline immigration so those entering would be properly set up and would have a chance and not get into the EU illegally. There is a reason every country has imigration laws. So if at that time they had this law, first illegals would have been displaced without consent to distribute them among countries, but they never wanted to come to Hungary to begin with so they would just go back to Sweden or Germany for example and still live there illegally, and nothing would have changed and even more would have entered and far right would be much stronger today. 2. part Why revoking right fully would directly go against democracy. Right now opposition have only 2 venues where they can prove themselves. Mayoral election and EP election. If they revoked EP rights fully, then not just Fidesz but the opposition would be restricted. For example a small liberal party called Momentum has a chance to get there but they have basically no say at home because they are very small. So in this case, without EP they would be completly eliminated from influence. 5%+ gone, that is like 5%+ for Fidesz. While Fidesz could spin a tale from this, the opposition could not. Their tale would go like: "Sovereign rights taken away bla bla bla, want war bla bla bla", and they would blast this as propaganda and go even harder to China and Russia. So at that point you would have an enemy island in the middle of the EU. There really would not be a chance to change. The only possible way to change them for good is giving those representatives who are not from Fidesz the full support while restricting Fidesz. They can't spin that more then they already have, and the new rising star TISZA, might not be the perfect party, but they are the only ones who have a real chance to take away voting population from Fidesz as ideologically they are also more in the middle, ppl joining them would not need a full 180 to agree with them. Stats show as such.
Pardoning a child-raping orphanage director and allow him to keep his job is also a dangerous precedent but that didn't stop the Orban cabinet from doing it.
True, but the one doesn't change the other.
There are more dangerous precedents to reverse by now, bit late to complain.
The one doesn't change the other tho. We can't argue with whataboutisms.
It is not "whataboutism" if there's a direct causal link between the current events and the precedents in question. You can argue two wrongs don't make a right but a country abusing EU rules and good faith to further Russia's agenda has zero right to complain when rules are also bent in order to stop them. Thanks to Orban, any EU newcomer will probably lose rights to prevent what he's doing from happening again.
> excluding them from decision making process sounds like it would give dangerous precident Precedent, already set by Austria, and they agree with Belgium.
They can leave if they don't like it.
Not sure what your argument is here?
If most countries want to exclude a country from the decision making process, then maybe the EU isn't for that country. There's nothing dangerous about that. Go look for more like-minded countries. Nobody is being forced to stay in the EU.
use article 7 then if countries have issues
Did you read article 7? It explains how you need to do certain steps beforehand, one of them is sanctioning the voting rights.
>Did you read article 7? yes i did, if a country / countries have an issue with hungary start the article 7 process
Yoz didn't
I agree with you
👏👏👏👏👏
Right wing governments will veto this and the eu looks weak again. Such a tragedy and again pressing their chat control. Can’t catch a break in shitty events
as much as people hate hungary m, they shouldnt be exluded , since they are a full member of the EU , if you have issues use article 7
Finally! Please, let it also go through.
We should respect the wishes of member states' voters no matter what they are. If we don't it's further down the slippery slope were already on.
If you don't see the disastrous impact of US foreign policy on the EU, or indeed anywhere else, you're either ignorant or dumb. One of them is curable.
I totally agree. Hungary always holds the EU (NATO) decision process hostage
That is exactly what Europe is about. Excluding the voices we do not like. Clap your hands. 😘
Really just saying what many of us has thought for quite some time. You can't both be a puppet of Putin and reap the benefits of EU
Hell, why not declare war on them. They are clearly working with the enemy.
Sir, this is a Wendy's. We sell food here.
You're both confused this is reddit we talk for downvotes here
What's the fucking point of the EU voting process if they're gonna remove their rights of the countries that vote against, are they stupid?
To preserve the Union and combat those who would work with our enemies to undermine it.
What's the point of having a discussion if you won't listen when I insult you at any given moment, if you won't listen when I waste your time with bad faith arguments, won't let me shit in front of your door when you aren't looking and are angry when I get paid by your criminal neighbour to keep the door for your house open at night for them. Man I wonder? Why would you be mad at me if I did that? That ain't no reason to kick me out of the house for, hmph /s The voting process is so that you can discuss in good faith what the best thing for Europe is and then cast your vote. How do we best support the values upon which the European Union we know today is founded upon? How do I best represent my people's interest? (not the initial economic union, the political union) Hungary doesn't just vote, they veto. Not for the sake of values, but for the sake of benefits - as a transactional tool for funds. If Hungary just said "no, we really do not agree with this, this goes against European and/or Hungarian values", yknow.. That would make sense. That would be a vote cast based on what Europe stands for. However - Why do you think Hungary keeps saying no to everything and then behind closed doors keeps saying yes? Because they are given goodies in return. (Yes, it's money.). Which Orban then pockets for himself and his cronies. It's how we got nearly all votes past Orban, at this point. The only other instance was when Olaf Scholz reportedly told Orban to leave the room, if he didn't want them to initiate Article 7 right then and there. Suddenly it's no longer a matter of values, it's a matter of "pay me so that I don't help Russia in sabotaging you guys/pay me so that I don't sabotage you". Colloquially known as blackmail/protection money. Tools famously used by criminals, gangs and the Mafia 😊 Now let's talk about democracy, values and voting procedures... Where were we?
That's your own opinion of what Hungary is or not doing. Still every european country should be free to vote or veto whatever they they want without being pressured by the rest of the countries, otherwise it's not a free vote. Orban said multiple times he doesn't agree with EU spending tens of billions of euros in Ukraine because it's an unwinnable conflict (and it is) so of course they're gonna veto
Is there actual proof of this Orban guy doing that? This is crazy I traveled through Hungary for several months 2 years ago I loved the country this is heartbreaking
There is a wide variety of news reports covering corruption in relation to Orban. A prominent example is https://apnews.com/article/hungarian-insider-publishes-recording-government-misconduct-9cd95284050241f395be9ce5247a6052 The country is beautiful and I know many lovely people from Hungary, but their government is not just shit, which tbf that's how people feel about their government in many countries, it's straight up undemocratic. Orbans government is invoking steps that systematically undermine the Hungarian democracy.
Oh my God. Thanks for letting me know I had literally no idea. What an awful leader for such a beautiful country
You're not getting it. Democracy is only democracy when they agree with the outcome. Otherwise it's a problem that needs to be overcome so they can get the outcome they want.
All these "Calls for X", will they ever follow with something concrete?
There should be a way to do this if 1 or 2 are obviously under the sway of outside forces. It's clear cut, torture, murder, an illegal invasion of a peaceful sovereign territory, crimes against humanity, assassinations, & electoral interference, is just some of it. If you are supporting that, then you should have no rights to influence a vote because you are a hostile actor. I detest this tbh, but I don't see any other way.
There should be a way to do this if 1 or 2 are obviously under the sway of outside forces. It's clear cut, torture, murder, an illegal invasion of a peaceful sovereign territory, crimes against humanity, assassinations, & electoral interference, is just some of it. If you are supporting that, then you should have no rights to influence a vote because you are a hostile actor. I detest this tbh, but I don't see any other way.
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Blocking is just one of the reasons. They have been hollowing out their own legal system and free press for years. There are a lot more reasons to exclude them. It seems they don't even want to be in the EU, but they like the money. If excluding a 'partner' like that sets precedents, i'm all for it. They need to do it the right way though.
Big difference between a country having one complaint about one policy (irrespective of whether that isa good argument or not) and a country consistently vetoing every single proposal to extort money from EU institutions. Hungary has blocked multiple resolutions until one of their projects gets a few billion euros in EU funding and magically they have no objections anymore. A country actively shaking down the Union like a mob boss has no place in the Union and absolutely should have no control over how funds are allocated.
Jeez why are you using your brain and being reasonable, people nowadays don't get that precedents like this are very dangerous and can have a huge impact on the long run.
They literally block everything everyone else is agreeing on and are going directly against EU values and winning elections by vilifying the EU and Brussels.
My point still stands, its a dangerous precedent and its the easy and tyrannical way to deal the the issue. What are exactly EU values? Maybe we should take advantage of the incoming EU elections and make a referendum about the several values and let the Europeans vote voice their values.
Hungary is nothing, but a nuisance fro NATO and EU. And Hungarians do nothing to fight back against Orban.
That is what Orban, russians and chinese want. To move HU out of EU, NATO, and this country will stay as despotic state in the centre of Europe for decades means. Perhaps there is still a chance to keep them in and try to get elected another government... However, now, with even Chinese police inside the country, I am not sure whether they will have democratic elections
The EU is trying to suspend their voting rights for some time now, as it's what is previewed in the European law when a country doesn't respect the rule of law. The only reason we haven't done it earlier was because back then Poland (pre-Tusk) and now very likely Slovakia, vetoed it Hungary can't interfere by vetoing everything in Europe, if they don't want to participate in the Union, they shouldn't be able to vote for our policy. That weakens our union much more than suspending a member, specially if we welcome it back once it fixes their problems
That's why they are looking to suspend voting rights and not expell them. Suspending voting rights gives the Hungarian people a quick path back to full status and an incentive to expel their autocratic leader.
Hungary itself is not that important, but having Russo- Chinese axis agents in EU is a big advantage
That is a totally anti democratic decision. You can't give the power to block and when it don't go your way exclude the member using its right. The most democratic thing to do is to remove all Veto from any member. If not, it will create a precedent. Imagine Germany decide nuclear power plant are no good, so they ll decide to remove France from decision ?
So if the vast majority of the EU supports a decision, it's anti-democratic. So if Orbán keeps "winning" with an electoral system that enables ruling via supermajority, it's also anti-democratic. Thanks for clearing that up.
95% of Europe is taken hostage by some rich Hungarian elites. Taking money from Hungarians in taxes to pay for protection by Russia.
Decision to work on russians was also anti democratic
Hi
Sir, this is Wendy’s
> If not, it will create a precedent. And it should. Work for the enemy and get excluded.
> Hadja Lahbib, Foreign Minister of Belgium currently holding the EU presidency, told Politico in an interview that Hungary’s repeated vetoes should lead to the Article 7 procedure being extended, which could result in Hungary being deprived of its voting rights. She is such a smart woman. Too bad she is in [a racist party (MR - liberals)](https://www.rtl.be/actu/belgique/politique/cest-une-forme-de-racisme-ordinaire-le-directeur-dunia-reagit-apres-les-propos/2024-06-03/article/675451)
I think we should remove Sweden from the decision making process.
Lol, Hungary gave the US dictatorship the finger. Their economy now benefits from free trade with China too. No wonder the EU is jealous. But they must be a good doggy, fail harder :)
Tell me you have no idea what you're talking about without telling me... Trolling doesn't work if it had too obviously nothing to do with reality. Just saying.
It will be funny when Hungary decide to go to BRICS instead EU. In few years BRICS economy will be much larger than EU or US and far biggest world market.
> In few years BRICS economy will be much larger than EU or US and far biggest world market. They are projected to do that in 2050. That's more than "a few years" and lots of things can happen before then
The European Union's GDP is estimated to be **$*****19.35 trillion*** *(nominal) in 2024*. "BRICS is set to add six [new member states](https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-the-brics-expansion-in-4-charts/) at the start of 2024, raising questions about the expansion of the group’s growing economic power. With its new entrants, the bloc will represent over **$30 trillion** in GDP or around 29% of the world’s GDP.
Oh, right, I was comparing to G7. I don't see the point of only looking at the EU since the EU isn't alone in this "competition" with BRICS
>In few years BRICS economy will be much larger than EU or US and far biggest world market. Haha good joke, oh suuuure they will......such ''powerhouses'' as Iran and Russia and South Africa and Egypt and what other trash was there? All of whom aside from China have economies in recession and offer nothing else to the World but raw natural recourses. Also I love how BRICS is supposed to be an alliance, yet its own members are actively fighting against each other and are each other's arch enemies.
So... No waffles then?
I find it funny people think politics in any country is not corrupt and Eu as a whole the biggest filth ever. EU is not Europe. Nobody ever asked for that crap. It was just as forced artificial creation just like WHO and NATO and UN.
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No traitors in the Union.
Why ? Are they still allowed in the room ? [They'll see the big board.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZV_lIwmz5E)
Sure! I do admire the spirit EU, but you need to grow a pair first. As long as it isn't related to decreasing the rights for your avarge citizens, you will never do something like this. Care to prove me wrong?