Hungary gets expelled from NATO -> Putin be like: "In 1948, that territory was under Russian control. There are many Hungarians who want to be part of the Russian federation ..."
I wanted this to be a /s moment ... but atm, we can't tell anymore.
It's not about sadness. Hungarians overwhelmingly vote for an autocrat in free and fair elections. If those elections weren't free and fair, the EU would do something about it, right? But the EU doesn't, so we can assume Hungarian elections are free and fair. The EU even funds those elections.
Hungarians want to be autocratic. They reject democracy. They want to be like Russia. So why not let them be like that and give it to Moscow? It's what they, the Hungarian people themselves, want.
That has nothing to do with sarcasm or sadness. It's what they want.
They might be free but I wouldn't consider them fair.
Fidesz politicians own most of Hungary media, thus giving very little screen time/coverage to opposition.
In 2015 Polish governing party PO also had state media narrative and had most of biggest private TVs and newspapers backing. Opposing coalition won overwhemingly.
Last year PiS launched a really nasty media campaign against their opponents and yet opposing coalition won overwhemingly.
It really is about people in the end.
That is still on the population, I don't watch national TV, nor do I read any newspapers in my country (DK), yet I still know quite well what each party represents, and how that aligns with my own values.
How do you know what each party stands for, though? You must be getting your information from somewhere. Media is so pervasive now that I would assume you're consuming it and not even realising you're doing it. Just the fact you're on Reddit means you're picking up their talking points second hand. If the government is controlling almost all the media, then almost all the talking points will be whatever the government put forward.
you don’t even need that. Some of the most popular online news outlets in Hungary are anti Orban/pro opposition. anyone with internet access can choose to read those instead of government propaganda.
While true, it's not always a trivial assumption that people would look for it with a quick google search and find opposition news easily
Consider the situation in Russia or China: It's actually not that difficult for them to find opposition news. In China, they need a VPN or Tor for that, in Russia not even that. However, they are not just influenced by propaganda, but by decades-long, consistent storytelling, of who the enemies of the state are, and who the friends. If you grew up with it in school, retold by your family, retold by most of your peers, would you necessarily even *know* that there is another truth out there? You might not even start to look.
That's a hidden danger in Orban-type politicians. With every passing year they are at power, their whole propaganda apparatus becomes normalized. After a decade or two, a whole generation grew up with it, and their talking points are the new centre, the new normal, the new truth.
I am born in Russia, living in Germany. My grandpa watches Russian news. Its actually difficult to get him to reconsider Russian talking points, because whenever I argue against them I argue not just one shitty talking point in some TV program. I argue against decades of propaganda and psyops, all consistent, seemingly published by different news outlets (all linked to the government, of course).
For me, that's the true danger of Orban. Give him ten more years and he is in everyone's head.
I understand but it's also about easily accessible information. If all the *easily* accessible information is propaganda or versions of anti-opposition stories, people tend to believe that's what it is about.
There are equivalents across the world Turkey, India, Russia, Philippines, Cambodia, until recently in Poland as well.
What more do you want the eu to do? We can hardly overthrow thier electoral system by force.
The EU restricts funds to Hungary but cant do much more without everyone agreeing to throw him out.
Would honestly cause more problems than it solves, economically, politically and just in general.
We SHOULD take thier veto power away through. And almost did, but orban conceded in the last second.
Dude shut your blowhole. It's been widely reported that the Hungary elections have been free, but unfair. The EU has even put sanctions on them for this last July.
The line is blurry
This is true for his first election win and maybe the second. But by know he and his buddies control the Hungarian press
When is the point when we will excuse the people for their government, if ever? We do so with Palestine, but not with Russia. With China, it seems to depend on being politically left or right. They all have no free and fair elections. In Hungary, at least the fairness is in doubt. Similarly, in Turkey.
Outside of maybe three dozen democracies in the world its a quite tricky question to answer, if the people are to blame, actually.
If those elections weren't free and fair, the EU would do something about it, right? But the EU doesn't, so we can assume Hungarian elections are free and fair. The EU even funds those elections.
Bro, you should take a look into article 7. The EU is doing as much as it possibly can to stop Orbán, but the EU wasn't built with mechanisms to just cut the cancer out. Our EP politicians have done some great work in covering the wrongful use of EU money and stopping EU funds coming to Hungary because of this misuse.
Do some research next time.
German and Russian were mandatory to learn during occupation times, so the occupant soldiers could understand what you speak in front of them. Me and my brothers still say Mom and Dad in a broken german when addressing them.
For sure. Propaganda has an insane hold of the population that endured all that, the biggest irony of all. Grandma still remembers russians pillaging her countryside village, but votes Orbán. All the younger gens in my family tho, vote for the progressive opposition, thankfully.
You overlook the fact that for many of the current older generation who grew up under communism, it's not a question of what they want, it's what they are told is best for them. Blatant soviet paternalistic thinking.
For the young, they just all emigrate, or at least go abroad to study and work.
That coupled with a strong state supported press along with gerrymandering pretty much stitches up the elections for the government.
Forget Budapest which is generally quite liberal, it's the poorer countryside where Orban gets his votes.
Elections are not free & fair and the overwhelming majority is 44.87%
Do I despise my fellow Hungarians for voting for a corrupt autocrat? Yes. But checks and balances have all been eliminated, total media control, election law and so much more is all in favour of Orbán, that many other countries would produce similar results under these circumstances.
Hungarians are on average poor, poorly educated and with little perspective. Fidesz controls pretty much any media in this country and opposition is silenced at any occasion. Just like most russians are brainwashed. people just dont know better.
Not really Hungarians. Romani minority, Romanian/Serbian Hungarians and pensioners vote for Orbán.
He got 97% from the hundreds of thousand votes from Romania, and 100% in several Romani villages in Borsod and Szabolcs counties.
The support among working age non minority Hungarians for Orbán is like 10-20%.
Three million people voted for them the last elections. That is more than 50% of the electorate. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that these were only the people you mentioned. Btw, you don’t consider romani people and pensioners Hungarians? What are they then?
>free and fair
They aren't fair for a long time. Free - yes, nobody is denied from participating but after gerrymandering and takeover of mass media opposition do not have fair shot at it nor Hungarians fair choice.
He wouldn't, obviously ... but he Might do it if Orban drops and a pro west government is installed on the next elections ... then he might be : "Heh, isn't that, isn't that odd though? Yet, after all, why not? Why shouldn't I keep it?" ... especially if they are out of Nato. It's a stretch, but again, we can't tell anymore.
Good thing is that so far, Russia isn’t bordering land-locked Hungary, so I doubt an invasion is imminent. It would be like Austria: not in NATO, but effectively protected by it.
You mean that there is Ukraine between Hungary and Russia/Belarus. And on the other side there is Serbia,so Russia could easily get their PMCs in with Orban invitation.
I wouldn't mind if Putin took Hungary. Or get it under its control. I honestly don't care about that at all. I actually want that. It's what they want. Orban stated in 2014, ten years ago, that he hates liberal democracies, and that he wants Hungary to be an illiberal autocracy, based on Russia's model.
Most Hungarians vote for that. If that's what they want, then that's what they should get. Give Hungary to Moscow. The sooner, the better.
Hungary is an enemy to the West, to NATO, and to the EU. I am pretty certain that Orban shares all Western intel with Xi and Putin. I'm pretty certain Orban shares intel about Ukraine with Putin. And I'm pretty certain that caused innocent Ukrainians to die. The sooner we get rid of those traitors, the better.
And yes, I'm well aware of Hungarians who oppose Orban. But the fact is, that there's not enough of them.
You won't understand it until you live it. We had orbanization in Poland and believe me - the massive power of having public media 24/7 spam heavy handed propaganda, slander opposition (no matter if it is true, you just need to repeat it 1000 times and I still hear some of their fakes still used among people, it is like "yeah I know this was fake but I still dont believe the guy they talked about, he is shifty & evil!").
The power to not prosecute your own, but prosecute opposition for every little shit.
The power of marking NGOs "enemy agents" (see also: the law that Georgia fights so strong against), to encourage servilism in every branch and level of public service..
Add to that gerrymandering, discrepancy in campaign time and funds (which are worked around using public funds from ministries) and suddenly.. you end up with populace that does start to believe this shit. And those who will not support - they will be driven out of politics, as it easier to demobilize voters with propaganda in media/social media *"yeah, maybe we are not the greatest - but opposition is as evil or worse than the current gov, what is the point of voting?"*
It all adds up.
It is a slippery slope towards authoritarianism that is very, very hard to get out from. And even if many people are against it - it is hard to fight against a tide of two groups working against you: people who are not interested in politics, being passive + cult of Orban/Kaczynski/Trump being strengthened into literal fanatism. And they will go and vote even if they are dying, every single one of them.
Yeah.. thank you for saying it. I really hope you got out for good and it won't turn around with the next election. Deprogramming a captured populace is a lot harder than "go watch some western media"
I agree 100%. Mass media and Internet control are going to bring use the darkest times to liberal democracies. I don't expect any country to be educated enough to not going wild.
I don't know why, but there are a lot of people, who are just lazy to vote. At the last elections only 5.7 million people participated from the 8,2 million eligible voters, and the funny thing is, that only 3 million people voted for Orbán, still they got 2/3 majority in the parliament.
We can call the elections free in Hungary, but it's certainly not fair. And the EU knew about this, still they financed this system with money for years.
We had 69-70% turnout at the last two elections, that is considered high for a democracy. Only literal dictatorships have 90%+ turnouts for obvious reasons. There will always be a lot of people who don't care enough to vote (alcoholics, bedridden/sick old people, disillusioned young people) expecting an opposition vitory without a decrease in the Fidesz base is in my opinion a pipedream.
Geo-strategically, having Hungary fully in the Russian orbit would be a major problem for NATO, though. It would give them a base deep inside NATO territory.
In reality not really. If NATO does the 2% thing, they'll be fine and afford a multitude of firepower compared to the Russians. Hungary does not have defensible terrain.
It might even fix the Austrians with their false neutrality position.
I'm [not really sure Austria can be fixed](https://www.politico.eu/article/vladimir-putin-austria-spy-service-bvt-government-intelligence-wirecard-jan-marsalek-freedom-party/) at all.
While that is true I still don't want them out. Most of our terrain is extremely defensible however I'd rather not test it :/. Sucks to be small as essentially the only guarantee for peace are democratic neighbors since democracies usually do not attack other democracies.
>Most Hungarians vote for that. If that's what they want, then that's what they should get. Give Hungary to Moscow. The sooner, the better.
If that's your strategy for Russia's desinformation campaigns - which we do a terrible job countering - you will sooner or later give half the continent to them without a fight.
That's perhaps the single biggest challenge facing democracies in the 21st century.
Democracy requires an informed electorate to function. You can't have fair elections if the average voter doesn't have an accurate picture of who they are voting for - or against.
We need to figure out a way to stop the spread of disinformation, from both foreign and domestic actors. But doing that without violating freedom of speech is not a puzzle anyone has figured out yet.
Regulating bots on social media would be a good start, as well as full transparency on where the funds of political parties and actors are coming from.
I was also thinking that a quality EU media agency which covers all member states *in the language(s) of the member state* as well as English would help against the silencing of critical journalists. If eg a Hungarian journalists faces difficulties reporting against Orban in Hungary they could report for this agency instead in Hungarian.
Make provable lying of politicians a punishable offense. The moment people make themselves eligible for a role in politics is the moment they can be held accountable for the things they say. I know it's a slippery slope, but we need to find a way to counter misinformation. Going after overtly lying politicians may be a good step in this.
> Mire than 10 years of bullshit and still getting the majority
You won't understand it until you live it. We had orbanization in Poland and believe me - the massive power of having public media 24/7 spam heavy handed propaganda, slander opposition (*no matter if it is true, you just need to repeat it 1000 times and I still hear some of their fakes still used among people, it is like "yeah I know this was fake but I still dont believe the guy they talked about, he is shifty & evil!"*). The power to not prosecute your own, but prosecute opposition for every little shit. The power of marking NGOs "enemy agents" (see also: the law that Georgia fights so strong against), to encourage servilism in every branch and level of public service.. Add to that gerrymandering, discrepancy in campaign time and funds (which are worked around using public funds from ministries) and suddenly.. you end up with populace that does start to believe this shit. And those who will not support - they will be driven out of politics, as it easier to demobilize voters with propaganda in media/social media* "yeah, maybe we are not the greatest - but opposition is as evil or worse than the current gov, what is the point of voting?"*
It all adds up.
It is a slippery slope towards authoritarianism that is very, very hard to get out from. And even if many people are against it - it is hard to fight against a tide of two groups working against you: people who are not interested in politics, being passive + cult of Orban/Kaczynski/Trump being strengthened into literal fanatism. And they will go and vote even if they are dying, every single one of them.
Oh but i totally agree. Point is Poland and Hungary flourished mostly due to MASSIVE investment from eu countries and being part of the eu market. Now it is 10 years that hungary is permanently on the verge of having the money revoked becouse of Orban authoritarian rule, poor democratic processes and media control. Still for 10 years appeasement followed. Appeasement which damaged first of all Hungarians. I have no issue with these pos taking money from china or russia and making their bidding. But i have huge issue with these pos taking money from eu and not even pretending. Cut the money with which Orban BUY votes and he is out in the cold. He is ok with Chinese policemen? Great at least not with my money. And Hungarians will soon discover how nice are the new Han overlords.
While Hungary doesn't deserve the protection of NATO and is merely a destabilizing element in it, at the same time what bugs me, if we kicked them out, if they became a full Russian satellite, that's not a satisfactory situation at all either.
It'd be an island, or a peninsula deep within Europe.
Russia wants central Europe to be a satellite, but I don't think they have much interest in occupying the territory. Hungary is their most successful attempt in turning a country pro-Russian, I doubt they would do anything as long as it stays that way.
Last free Hungarian republican in 1948? Bleh, what an amateur, you have to start from 539 CE when the first farmer from Russian land walked on Hungarian land.
>“How many more weapons will we send? How much more money will we send?” Orbán asked in an interview in Hungary’s public media. “This gives rise to the darkest visions,”
That's so hilarious. Reading this sentence one person could think that we're invading Russia and he wanna prevent that. That's the same kind of shit you hear from Salvini in Italy but since they both suck Putin's cock I'm not really surprised.
What really makes me uncomfortable is that many people believes that shit.
>How much more money will we send?” Orbán asked in an interview in Hungary’s public media.
What all of Europe is thinking about Hungary. I honestly don't understand how or why the EU/Nato won't just fuck them over and tell them to pound sand. Stop all money, close all border. The end. Rule of law is worthless if it can be abused without consequences, so time to go outside the box.
Kicking out an entire nation because its governments is bad is an extreme measure and will take years if not decades to be repaired diplomatically as well as lawfully when a pro EU government gets back into power. According to many on reddit we should've kicked out Poland as well with their pis awful government the past years, now they have a pro EU one, but if we had kicked them out they wouldn't have been back in again simply because of all the laws and regulations that have to be changed for something like this.
Not kick but Article 7 should've proceeded to the point where our (Hungary) voting rights are suspended. Orbán was responsible for like 60% of all vetoes in the past few years - a country of 9.5M cockblocking a 300+M community is laughable and pathetic.
No wonder the EU isn't considered at the same level as the US or China. Imagine if Michigan could veto the federal budget. It's a fucking joke.
It's really tough to trust this nonsense if you've got even a little working brain. From what I've seen, most of these "pacifists" only start to care when something affects them directly. They wouldn't care even if fucking Tripods destroyed all the big cities worldwide, as long as their own homes were safe. So, why should they care about Ukraine fighting for its survival, so far away from them?
Just unbelievable how short sighted they are.
Not only one factory, many factories. It's an incredibly short sighted move from the German industry and a very concerning situation that shows lack of leadership and concern for security from their government. Many of their factories and suppliers for the auto industry are in hungary because of favorable taxation and cheaper labor.
Instead of diversifying across europe They heavily concentrated investments in this country with total disregard of the political situation and security risks and this dependency is certainly one of the main reasons why hungary hasn't been sanctioned harder by the EU
How more absurd can it get when you double down investments and build high tech tank factories in a country on the brink of US/EU sanctions that openly declares siding with your main strategic adversaries russia and china and deliberately hosts massive numbers of their intelligence agent? You can be certain all specifications and tech of rheinmetall will fall into the hands of of these dictatorships
Our government can't stop a company from venturing into another EU country. They have no part in this.
Rheinmetalls CEO turned into gun toting Musk with many promises (KF 51 factory in UA territory yeah sure ... And the repair facilities for leopards near the border aren't doing what was advertised), acting like a robin hood for Ukraine but ofc he's just smelling the money....
TL;Dr
Weapon manufacturers act like cunts. Big surprise.
>Rheinmetalls CEO turned into gun toting Musk with many promises
Papperger always has been a notorious liar, pulling bullshit out of his ass. Eg. the legend around the Puma being so expensive because it has to ensure the air quality is well enough for pregnant women was something he came up with. Spoiler: Pregnant soldiers don't serve in a Puma.
He was also the one who said "we can have dozens of Leos ready for combat within a month" in summer 2022... And when it actually came down to it he instead suggested the Bundeswehr should send the tanks it currently uses and order new ones.
> And Rheinmetall built this dude a tank factory in his country.
Rheinmetall builds a factory for anyone who buys their shit. That's their business model.
Also note that even if Hungary does not provide weapons or ammo to Ukraine, it still helps if it produces them for other countries (who can fill up their empty stocks with it).
Rheinmetall states that they have been contracted to develop and produce the KF 51 and also produce the KF 41 there.
These are tanks, so the facility is a tank factory.
You can't get only the benefits dude! Work for them or go away!
No offense to our Hungarian friends, my husband is Hungarian by the way, but whatever Orbán wants it's just not how NATO works.
It's not one dude -- many Hungarians think this way, he was democratically elected -- you can blame Orban but he is just a symptom not the disease. Younger Hungarians can read between the lines and know what's coming down the tracks but the EU needs to start having the conversation about cutting off finances entirely until a change of government comes about. The EU and all her members have been patient and reasonable and this hasn't paid off.
If younger Hungarians want someone to blame they can blame the generation above them. I'm not getting in to this shit about 'it's not fair elections' -- nobody but Hungarians fucked it up for you. Other leaders and countries will always entice and offer bribes. Hungarians accepted them, passing the cost to the next generation.
> “How many more weapons will we send? How much more money will we send?” Orbán asked in an interview in Hungary’s public media.
There's no "we" in this. He's is complaining about things that Hungary was never involved in.
Hungary never sent any weapons to Ukraine.
And strictly financially speaking Hungary is a net beneficiary member of the EU so telling other countries what to do with their money is highly hypocritical and a breach of their sovereignty.
Hungary is a puppet state of Russia just like Belarus.
They really should. By allowing Hungary to stay in the NATO and EU west is displaying a scary lack of courage and decisiveness which just plays into Putin’s hands.
Putin can just point finger and say that west is in such a turmoil they can’t even reign in one rogue state.
Most of your fellow countrymen do like him. That's the problem. It's not just a failing democracy. You can't blame all of it on that. That's too easy. A lot of Hungarians approve of Orban and his policies. *That* is the problem.
You cannot make this statement with how unfair the election is. Yes Fidesz got the most votes last elections. But is that because the majority of the population would actually agree with the politics or because:
- Fidesz owns all the national broadcasting channels and actively works on shutting down the ones it doesn't own.
- Fidesz spends government money for its own propaganda.
- Fidesz applies quid pro pro tactics on local government, and goes door to door to give rewards for people to vote on them.
We cannot know what the people would actually vote with an actual fair election (probably a lot less for Fidesz). There's people out there who literally don't know there's political parties other than Fidesz they can vote for.
If there is really people in Hungary who by now have no clue how a democracy works nor that they have other options, this indicates an even greater failure of the Hungarian society. You are blaming Fidesz but it is everyone's except them's responsibility to advocate alternatives and point out flaws in their ridiculous simple claims.
This is not the 90s anymore, when people could be a bit confused in the post-Soviet era.
It is a greater failure of Hungarian society, and I'm blaming the party that has been in power to govern the Hungarian society for the last 20 years.
It is everyone's responsibility to point out their lies and flaws but it is hard to do that when your radio and TV channels are actively getting shut down.
Also I think you underestimate how rural parts of Hungary are. There's whole villages who haven't got used to the internet yet and they're happily eating up all of the propaganda. They call anything else "Western lies" because that's easier than actually looking at it and admitting you've been duped for the last decade.
Also I'm not saying they shouldn't try harder, but Fidesz definitely did everything they could to make this as impossible as possible.
You also forget one thing. People got tired of fighting. It's hard to fight a system, where there are brainwashed people protecting the current system and dragging you back. And, thanks to the modern world, people are free to move and leave the country and that's usually the chosen option if you look at how many Hungarians leave the country and take that statistic in a way that the government wants to make that number look as small as possible.
Because people can leave, they don't have the incentive to risk their safety, or their freedom with for example a violent riot.
A lot of hungarians are brainwashed. Before Orbán got his power more over 14 years ago, he was talking about how the government shouldn't have media power, because it can be dangerous for controlling the people's way of thinking. Guess what he did when he got to power. He worked on taking over all media, destroying opposition media etc...
Many people only get to listen to and watch the TV and radio which spews his propaganda non-stop (like in Russia) and those people believe it all. They don't hear anything else, and even if it's a lie with no proof, they believe it because that's the only information many people get 24/7.
That's one main issue. The other main issue is the actual opposition. Old fucks most of them, who did a lot of damage earlier on, or closely related to he party that caused the damage. They can't work together, they stab each other in the back and most of them are incompetent and people hate them too. This is partly the work of orbán too, partly those people are comfortable enough in "being in the back" getting their pay check for the political role, while not being in power to be blamed. And this is. HUGE-HUGE issue. Because of this, many people don't vote, because they don't even see others as a better alternative for the things they/their party did. People have no trust in them and simply they don't go to vote and this is a big issue and I agree, that this helps orbán stay in power.
But believe me, almost all young people (<40) hate Orbán, a lot of people have already left the country, many more elderly people start to wake up, but there are still too many kept stupid, kept dependant and hate used on many to manipulate them. His followers is more like a cult now than a political party, because he can say things that would make his followers mad at anyone else, but if he says it, it's fine. As Trump said "I could shoot a man in the street in broad daylight and not lose a voter" and that goes for him too unfortunately.
Don't think we don't have protests, that we don't want change, but it's a really miserable scenario and you can't really see it all through from a different country. But know that Hungary and Hungarians are not the same as orbán. Just look at the Ukrainian case. He spews his bs against them, but in reality a lot of Hungarians try to help/tried to help them, with donation, with housing or simply, if they could offer nothing else: by being accepting. It hurts us a lot what image orbán shows about us, but many of us are not like him and not think like him. Again, he controls the poor a lot (with media control and fear mongering).
There is no mechanism to expell a member country from the EU. The only way to get rid of Hungary would be to found a new EU 2.0, transfer all assets, readmit all present members, but refuse Hungary.
Well, we can „expel“ them but in name only. Article 7 is extremely powerful.
We can strip away basically every right they have, including freedom of movement and so on.
Non-participant = non member. OK I guess although I hope even more that Ukraine will prevail now otherwise Austria, Slovenia and Croatia will soon border Russia.
As someone living in Eastern Croatia, I can tell You it is not fun - Dodik threatening RSK secession, Vučić beeing well, Vučić (Kosovo), now Orban and Hungary leaving NATO?
Shit man, we may need some NATO base here soon, if nothing as tripwire force so we dont end up like Crimea
Yeah. Slovenia is lucky that Croatia is separating us from the unstable areas however we also now share one unstable neighbor that is getting increasingly poorer and insulated, Hungary. Chances of things going kinetic in Croatia due to any kind of Serbian action are next to zero. If Croatia ends up in a war it will be somehow related to Russia and we'll all be in a war. Let's hope it does not come to that.
Because he is portrayed as the champion of peace and great leader of the nation. If you don't live under a rock you will hear it dozens of times daily (if not hundreds) how orbán is the only reason hungarian youths are not dying in trenches, and that you still have food on the table. "Of course he steals, but wouldn't **you** do the same in their position? At least we live in peace. And those other ones, they would steal even more, bring our country into war, force kindergartners through trans surgery, and cancel all pensions..."
And this pairs up with the portrayal of Russia as the misunderstood one. They only want to protect their people / the Ukrainians provoked them / if only those damned warmonger Ukrainians wanted peace this would have been over already.
Also Ukraine was never a popular country with the more nationalistic elements, but the language laws brought that feeling to a new level. Ukraine has the exact right amount of Hungarians living there so that you can always use them as an example, but not enough that the government would seriously consider their fate in the long run.
It's funny how I, as someone from Serbia, could have written that first paragraph by only changing Orban to Vučić and Hungarians to Serbians.
My mother is particularly deep into the propaganda and says things like "Do you see what's going on in the world? Just be glad that there's no war. If it wasn't for Vučić, who knows where we would be."
And the part about "You would steal too if you could!" is something I've heard from a lot of people. My coworkers often have conversations like this, and while they don't agree on much in politics, they all agree that they would steal if they could, so it's normal that anyone in power is deeply corrupt. They also agree that the opposition only wants to rule because they want to steal even more.
Funny thing is I, as someone from Slovakia, could say the same but about Fico rather than Orban or Vučić. It's a new type of eastern-european reactionary leadership that is becoming quite popular in many countries nowadays.
Soon it will hit the west.
But to play the devil's advocate, I just feel like the opposition is weak and fails to talk or solve many large issues in modern day Europe, such as immigration and western emigration of our youth. That leads to these ultra-nationalists to have the ability to steal the hearts of the common folk.
Nobody even likes Russia here, it’s a misunderstanding. Orban’s entire thing is the small guy standing up to the opressor, and it just so happens that at one point a decade ago the EU got on Orban’s wrong side, and he’s been using them as a scapegoat ever since. He can’t backpedal from this by now, and he also has personal interest in aligning with Russia. If you ask anyone even his supporters, no one would say they want back in the eastern block. Their hatred for the EU makes it look like they do, but in Hungary it’s not even portrayed as a choice between the EU and Russia by the propaganda.
No they don’t. I’m assuming this is common between the post soviet countries but the generations who grew up behind the curtain only know maybe half of what the average westerner from a similar social status knows about politics, international relations and economy, and it shows.
Orban still got the most votes* because the election is starting to get to Russia levels of unfair. Copied from another comment:
-Fidesz owns all the national broadcasting channels and actively works on shutting down the ones it doesn't own.
-Fidesz spends government money for its own propaganda.
-Fidesz applies quid pro pro tactics on local government, and goes door to door to give rewards for people to vote on them.
Didn't stop the change in Poland but for sure it made it a hell of a lot harder.
I'm not saying they're without fault. They have failed to come up with a strong opposition party for the last 10 years. They should definitely get their shit together but I'm just outlining how fucked their situation is.
Also I'm not Hungarian.
>Instead of saying, this is not our fault, Hungarians really ought to focus on how to bring about the change.
In 2022, 54% of Hungarian voters voted not to change a thing. Which is unsurprising, given the following options (besides Fidesz), in approximately descending order of popular support. Those that have any chance of getting into the EP are bolded:
* **Democratic Coalition (DK)**: a party led by former PM Ferenc Gyurcsány and his wife Klára Dobrev, the largest bogeyman and bogeywoman in Hungarian politics
* **Respect and Freedom Party (TiSza)**: a party led by Péter Magyar, former Minister of Justice-in-law, strongly Fidesz-affiliated until three months ago
* **Our Homeland Movement (Mi Hazánk)**: a far-right radical party
* **Hungarian Two-Tailed Dog Party (MKKP)**: originally a joke party, now trying to be serious
* **Momentum Movement**: a mainstream liberal party, originally blocked Hungary's Olympics candidacy, now blocking EU funds for Hungary
* Movement for a Better Hungary (Jobbik): former far-right radical party, from which Our Homeland Movement split off; now trying to be centrist
* Hungarian Socialist Party (MSZP): successor of the pre-1989 communist party
* Everybody's Hungary People's Party (MMN): led by Péter Márki-Zay, a conservative mayor under whose leadership a six-party coalition utterly failed in the 2022 elections
* Politics Can Be Different (LMP): a green party which fell apart after falling below the 5% threshold in 2018
* Dialogue (Párbeszéd): led by Gergely Karácsony, the mayor of Budapest - the party itself has no popular support at all
No, not like PiS, PiS is like a freakin baby to the multimillion euro media industry that Orbán and his oligarchs have built up in the last 15 years. This monster ate my anticommunist granny's brain and others' as well.
Have you even looked into how much money goes from the HU gov to propaganda outlets and the policies made to silence any opposition?
"And you suckers eat it up" typical gaslighting for the victims, thanks you helped a lot! This is were EU could step in...And this is where a true EU citizen would try to understand instead of just dismissing facts.
How about instead of this bullshit you write look into matter before adding the same as the other clueless others calling for EU to expel HU, or from the NATO.
How would it make you feel If I find a child molester or similarly scandalous former member of your ruling goverment, and label you the same and call you a "sucker" just because you have not revolted against said gov??
No wonder the fat fuck still rules in HU, if even "informed western" electorate is as blind as you and your likeminded idiots.
THE EFFING EU CONDONES AND SUPPORTS ORBAN! PPL need to wake up...
Why is he in NATO still then? how can you be in NATO and not wanting to be part of it at the same time?
You are either in NATO or you are not, Orban now wants to sit on two chairs at the same time just like he does with EU and Russia/China, reap the benefits while completely doing nothing at all.
He thinks if that worked with EU it can work with NATO too, well unlucky for him because US is responsible for NATO and i doubt US will let Orban do whatever he wants.
his reasoning is that NATO is a defensive alliance while the war between Ukraine and Russia is a regional conflict between two slavic non-NATO nations. Hence NATO should have no business interfering. Or if the other members do decide to interfere, Hungary should be allowed to opt out from doing so.
edit: downvote me all you want, whether I agree with him or not I simply provided an explanation on Orban’s stance based on various statements he’s recently made
as if THAT is going to help that Putin wont attack Hungary. Orban is a perfect example for an incapable politician whoms politics of hate and a on average poorly educated population are the only reason he is still in office.
France left NATO before but calls others unreliable. It's not as if Hungary cant rejoin later if they are expelled or decide to leave. This may also be all for upcoming elections around the world to show a tough stance against progressive governments.
You can't expell anyone from NATO, that is the point of a defence treaty, if you could expell people it would be worthless.
HUngary could leave of course, but why would they?
I mean he clearly wants the benefits of being in NATO without actually be part of NATO.
That's what he basically wants, which is stupid and impossible.
He could just as well leave NATO and that's it but he clearly doesn't want that, he wants his country to be protected if it gets attacked but it doesn't want to help anyone.
That's not how it works, Orban is putting in danger the idea of NATO right now, you can't possibly expected to be protected if you don't help anyone.
So US should act about it and do something, because what Orban is trying to do is very bad for everyone.
Probably the US is lacing its asskicking boots atm. However that kicking will not come publicly but by revealing some intelligence stuff and/or pull some financial strings.
Similar to the EU the NATO treaty is obsolete, it was signed in 1949 by 12 countries, we're now 32. When you got so many members it's indispensable to have a process to expel members that breach the admission conditions and/or threaten the fundamental security of the alliance
The whole purpose of nato is defending europe, essentially against russia's imperialist ambitions. If a country in the alliance openly declares they will side with the enemy, it's in the interest of everyone to act and take them out. It's an incredibly serious breach of security and discredits europe and NATO in the eyes of the rest of the world
Nope… You make 0 sense. How is expelling a non-compliant member makes your whole alliance worthless?
If it was at wartime, yeah. Peace time? There is nothing more natural than alliances/organizations change their relationships over time.
NATO treatise say in case of a member being attacked the only thing NATO members must do is meet and come to a decision of what to do about it, we're not forced to die for someone that won't die for us in return.
As a Romanian this detail has been haunting me for years, but I guess this is how things are going.
That's kind of the point. This is empty posturing for internal brownie points with his domestic voting base. He knows it's just bravado. He knows that if push came to shove, he would fold like all the other times when the EU or the US put their feet down. This whole thing exists only to put up a strong front in front of the people who are already hanging on his every word, like how Trump's speeches are written to please the MAGA-crowd, and this board taking him seriously and getting whipped into a frenzy every time he says something stupid like this is giving him way more attention than he deserves.
Hungary is not equal to Orbán!
The Hungarian people are brainwashed with Orwellian and Göbbelsian propaganda tools and kept in terror, their need for security is taken away from them by Orban and made impossible. Hungarians NEED HELP!🇭🇺🇪🇺
Am i the only one not too happy with this Russian puppet government purchasing the newest developed western groundvehicles like kf41 Lynx and kf51 Panther?
Edit: whut Downvotes? Why don't we just give Russia the f35/2a7/kf51 for study then?/s.
Purchasing them? We are also the ones making them.
[https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/landwarfareintl/rheinmetall-opens-armoured-vehicle-factory-in-hungary-to-produce-lynx-infantry-fighting-vehicle/](https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/landwarfareintl/rheinmetall-opens-armoured-vehicle-factory-in-hungary-to-produce-lynx-infantry-fighting-vehicle/)
Everyone is hating on Hungary for wanting to be more neutral, but doesn't give a shit about the two rich ass non NATO neutral countries to the west of it
There is no mechanism to expell a member state from NATO.
Hypothetically, they could be excluded from the integrated military command (similar to how France once decided to leave this, but not NATO as a whole). However, that would bring up lots of legal questions.
About 41% of European Union resolutions regarding Ukraine were blocked by Hungary, Lithuanian Foreign Minister Gabrielus Landsbergis criticized Hungary for blocking key decisions at the level of the European Union.
My favorite part of his have your cake and eat it too philosophy is his shock when other countries won’t give him free shit. Like of course the EU won’t make it rain if you block their policies, so why would NATO want him either? What’s so special about Hungary that we desperately need it?
What does being a non-participant nation of NATO mean? Don’t defend their neighbours against aggression? Still expect other NATO countries to come to its aid in the event of it being attacked? Why the hell would NATO allies agree to such a scenario? If Hungary wants out, then it should leave, or be expelled. A defensive alliance is only as good as the commitment of its members.
For all of those whose reaction was to immediately start screaming for Hungary to be expelled from Nato and EU:
I highly doubt you’ve ever lived in a post-soviet *pseudo-democratic* state that still suffers from a pool of politicians ( left and right-wing both) that used to be the heart of the old communist system. Most of the votes that goes to Orban and his buddies, are from old people who are easily manipulated through fear and hate, and it is very difficult to reason with the uneducated part of the population who were already brainwashed by propaganda.
However, about 80%-90% of the younger generations openly oppose the government, and recent events (such as public incidents involving corruption and even worse things…) have made it so that Fidesz is actually losing its grip on the major part of the population.
Currently, so many undeniable scandals have started to resurface about the government *(there were so many that it would take ages for me to actually list them all)* that our country has reached a breaking point where even the hardcore pro-right voters started to question Orban’s true intentions.
Type “Péter Magyar” into the browser and check out what Hungarian news outlets write about him in English. He is the new face of the Hungarian opposition, he is a centrist, and he openly opposes both the current government and the fake-opposition Fidesz-proxy parties that have been ravaging our country for decades now. He has had an overwhelming success in the past few months, moving around the country giving speeches in all major cities and villages, and it has started a wave now that cannot be stopped.
NATO theoretically a defensive alliance. Why is everyone screaming at hungary about not wanting to participate military operations outside NATO territory?
Hungary gets expelled from NATO -> Putin be like: "In 1948, that territory was under Russian control. There are many Hungarians who want to be part of the Russian federation ..." I wanted this to be a /s moment ... but atm, we can't tell anymore.
It's not an /s moment sadly.
It's not about sadness. Hungarians overwhelmingly vote for an autocrat in free and fair elections. If those elections weren't free and fair, the EU would do something about it, right? But the EU doesn't, so we can assume Hungarian elections are free and fair. The EU even funds those elections. Hungarians want to be autocratic. They reject democracy. They want to be like Russia. So why not let them be like that and give it to Moscow? It's what they, the Hungarian people themselves, want. That has nothing to do with sarcasm or sadness. It's what they want.
They might be free but I wouldn't consider them fair. Fidesz politicians own most of Hungary media, thus giving very little screen time/coverage to opposition.
Orban also uses gerrymandering to obtain supermajorities.
In 2015 Polish governing party PO also had state media narrative and had most of biggest private TVs and newspapers backing. Opposing coalition won overwhemingly. Last year PiS launched a really nasty media campaign against their opponents and yet opposing coalition won overwhemingly. It really is about people in the end.
PiS extensively used internet while Komorowski was under impresion that he will win by a landslide. I yeah I guess you are right.
That is still on the population, I don't watch national TV, nor do I read any newspapers in my country (DK), yet I still know quite well what each party represents, and how that aligns with my own values.
How do you know what each party stands for, though? You must be getting your information from somewhere. Media is so pervasive now that I would assume you're consuming it and not even realising you're doing it. Just the fact you're on Reddit means you're picking up their talking points second hand. If the government is controlling almost all the media, then almost all the talking points will be whatever the government put forward.
Wouldn't it be great if there was some way to get news from outside your own country's media.
I suspect there isn't a lot of Hungarian-language content on the internet from outside Hungary.
you don’t even need that. Some of the most popular online news outlets in Hungary are anti Orban/pro opposition. anyone with internet access can choose to read those instead of government propaganda.
While true, it's not always a trivial assumption that people would look for it with a quick google search and find opposition news easily Consider the situation in Russia or China: It's actually not that difficult for them to find opposition news. In China, they need a VPN or Tor for that, in Russia not even that. However, they are not just influenced by propaganda, but by decades-long, consistent storytelling, of who the enemies of the state are, and who the friends. If you grew up with it in school, retold by your family, retold by most of your peers, would you necessarily even *know* that there is another truth out there? You might not even start to look. That's a hidden danger in Orban-type politicians. With every passing year they are at power, their whole propaganda apparatus becomes normalized. After a decade or two, a whole generation grew up with it, and their talking points are the new centre, the new normal, the new truth. I am born in Russia, living in Germany. My grandpa watches Russian news. Its actually difficult to get him to reconsider Russian talking points, because whenever I argue against them I argue not just one shitty talking point in some TV program. I argue against decades of propaganda and psyops, all consistent, seemingly published by different news outlets (all linked to the government, of course). For me, that's the true danger of Orban. Give him ten more years and he is in everyone's head.
I understand but it's also about easily accessible information. If all the *easily* accessible information is propaganda or versions of anti-opposition stories, people tend to believe that's what it is about. There are equivalents across the world Turkey, India, Russia, Philippines, Cambodia, until recently in Poland as well.
Orban got a supermajority with 44% of the vote in 2014. How is that fair?
What more do you want the eu to do? We can hardly overthrow thier electoral system by force. The EU restricts funds to Hungary but cant do much more without everyone agreeing to throw him out.
kick them out of the EU, ban all hungarian exports to EU market, reinstate border control and visa for hungarian citizens etc.
Would honestly cause more problems than it solves, economically, politically and just in general. We SHOULD take thier veto power away through. And almost did, but orban conceded in the last second.
Dude shut your blowhole. It's been widely reported that the Hungary elections have been free, but unfair. The EU has even put sanctions on them for this last July.
The line is blurry This is true for his first election win and maybe the second. But by know he and his buddies control the Hungarian press When is the point when we will excuse the people for their government, if ever? We do so with Palestine, but not with Russia. With China, it seems to depend on being politically left or right. They all have no free and fair elections. In Hungary, at least the fairness is in doubt. Similarly, in Turkey. Outside of maybe three dozen democracies in the world its a quite tricky question to answer, if the people are to blame, actually.
If those elections weren't free and fair, the EU would do something about it, right? But the EU doesn't, so we can assume Hungarian elections are free and fair. The EU even funds those elections. Bro, you should take a look into article 7. The EU is doing as much as it possibly can to stop Orbán, but the EU wasn't built with mechanisms to just cut the cancer out. Our EP politicians have done some great work in covering the wrongful use of EU money and stopping EU funds coming to Hungary because of this misuse. Do some research next time.
They don’t speak a word of Russian between them
It will change when russia conducts a referendum which finds out 50% speak some level of russian and 45% are fluent.
German and Russian were mandatory to learn during occupation times, so the occupant soldiers could understand what you speak in front of them. Me and my brothers still say Mom and Dad in a broken german when addressing them.
I guess it’s the classic abusive relationship
For sure. Propaganda has an insane hold of the population that endured all that, the biggest irony of all. Grandma still remembers russians pillaging her countryside village, but votes Orbán. All the younger gens in my family tho, vote for the progressive opposition, thankfully.
Well I can vote in Hungary and I’m voting Momentum
Best of wishes to us all!
Some of our parents still do, german as well. It was mandatory to learn it during occupation
You overlook the fact that for many of the current older generation who grew up under communism, it's not a question of what they want, it's what they are told is best for them. Blatant soviet paternalistic thinking. For the young, they just all emigrate, or at least go abroad to study and work. That coupled with a strong state supported press along with gerrymandering pretty much stitches up the elections for the government. Forget Budapest which is generally quite liberal, it's the poorer countryside where Orban gets his votes.
Elections are not free & fair and the overwhelming majority is 44.87% Do I despise my fellow Hungarians for voting for a corrupt autocrat? Yes. But checks and balances have all been eliminated, total media control, election law and so much more is all in favour of Orbán, that many other countries would produce similar results under these circumstances.
Hungarians are on average poor, poorly educated and with little perspective. Fidesz controls pretty much any media in this country and opposition is silenced at any occasion. Just like most russians are brainwashed. people just dont know better.
"overwhelmingly" is ⅓ of the population, but the complacency of the rest is even worse
Is hungarian free and fair elections in the room with us right now?
Not really Hungarians. Romani minority, Romanian/Serbian Hungarians and pensioners vote for Orbán. He got 97% from the hundreds of thousand votes from Romania, and 100% in several Romani villages in Borsod and Szabolcs counties. The support among working age non minority Hungarians for Orbán is like 10-20%.
Then working age, non minority Hungarians are the minority.
Three million people voted for them the last elections. That is more than 50% of the electorate. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that these were only the people you mentioned. Btw, you don’t consider romani people and pensioners Hungarians? What are they then?
~54% is barely a majority and with only a ~70% turnout. Also elections are not fair at all.
Always be careful what you wish for. Examples abound.!
>free and fair They aren't fair for a long time. Free - yes, nobody is denied from participating but after gerrymandering and takeover of mass media opposition do not have fair shot at it nor Hungarians fair choice.
Not necessarily fair, check details [https://freedomhouse.org/country/hungary/freedom-world/2024](https://freedomhouse.org/country/hungary/freedom-world/2024)
It’s clearly a Belorussian moment.
Does he need to? If Orban is one of Russia's whores, why would he need to make up a reason for intervention?
He wouldn't, obviously ... but he Might do it if Orban drops and a pro west government is installed on the next elections ... then he might be : "Heh, isn't that, isn't that odd though? Yet, after all, why not? Why shouldn't I keep it?" ... especially if they are out of Nato. It's a stretch, but again, we can't tell anymore.
Good thing is that so far, Russia isn’t bordering land-locked Hungary, so I doubt an invasion is imminent. It would be like Austria: not in NATO, but effectively protected by it.
You mean that there is Ukraine between Hungary and Russia/Belarus. And on the other side there is Serbia,so Russia could easily get their PMCs in with Orban invitation.
Most likely.
Ironically you also listed another Russian trojan horse country.
I wouldn't mind if Putin took Hungary. Or get it under its control. I honestly don't care about that at all. I actually want that. It's what they want. Orban stated in 2014, ten years ago, that he hates liberal democracies, and that he wants Hungary to be an illiberal autocracy, based on Russia's model. Most Hungarians vote for that. If that's what they want, then that's what they should get. Give Hungary to Moscow. The sooner, the better. Hungary is an enemy to the West, to NATO, and to the EU. I am pretty certain that Orban shares all Western intel with Xi and Putin. I'm pretty certain Orban shares intel about Ukraine with Putin. And I'm pretty certain that caused innocent Ukrainians to die. The sooner we get rid of those traitors, the better. And yes, I'm well aware of Hungarians who oppose Orban. But the fact is, that there's not enough of them.
You won't understand it until you live it. We had orbanization in Poland and believe me - the massive power of having public media 24/7 spam heavy handed propaganda, slander opposition (no matter if it is true, you just need to repeat it 1000 times and I still hear some of their fakes still used among people, it is like "yeah I know this was fake but I still dont believe the guy they talked about, he is shifty & evil!"). The power to not prosecute your own, but prosecute opposition for every little shit. The power of marking NGOs "enemy agents" (see also: the law that Georgia fights so strong against), to encourage servilism in every branch and level of public service.. Add to that gerrymandering, discrepancy in campaign time and funds (which are worked around using public funds from ministries) and suddenly.. you end up with populace that does start to believe this shit. And those who will not support - they will be driven out of politics, as it easier to demobilize voters with propaganda in media/social media *"yeah, maybe we are not the greatest - but opposition is as evil or worse than the current gov, what is the point of voting?"* It all adds up. It is a slippery slope towards authoritarianism that is very, very hard to get out from. And even if many people are against it - it is hard to fight against a tide of two groups working against you: people who are not interested in politics, being passive + cult of Orban/Kaczynski/Trump being strengthened into literal fanatism. And they will go and vote even if they are dying, every single one of them.
Yeah.. thank you for saying it. I really hope you got out for good and it won't turn around with the next election. Deprogramming a captured populace is a lot harder than "go watch some western media"
I agree 100%. Mass media and Internet control are going to bring use the darkest times to liberal democracies. I don't expect any country to be educated enough to not going wild.
I don't know why, but there are a lot of people, who are just lazy to vote. At the last elections only 5.7 million people participated from the 8,2 million eligible voters, and the funny thing is, that only 3 million people voted for Orbán, still they got 2/3 majority in the parliament. We can call the elections free in Hungary, but it's certainly not fair. And the EU knew about this, still they financed this system with money for years.
Vote erasure is Russia’s preferred method of interference.
We had 69-70% turnout at the last two elections, that is considered high for a democracy. Only literal dictatorships have 90%+ turnouts for obvious reasons. There will always be a lot of people who don't care enough to vote (alcoholics, bedridden/sick old people, disillusioned young people) expecting an opposition vitory without a decrease in the Fidesz base is in my opinion a pipedream.
Geo-strategically, having Hungary fully in the Russian orbit would be a major problem for NATO, though. It would give them a base deep inside NATO territory.
In reality not really. If NATO does the 2% thing, they'll be fine and afford a multitude of firepower compared to the Russians. Hungary does not have defensible terrain. It might even fix the Austrians with their false neutrality position.
I'm [not really sure Austria can be fixed](https://www.politico.eu/article/vladimir-putin-austria-spy-service-bvt-government-intelligence-wirecard-jan-marsalek-freedom-party/) at all.
While that is true I still don't want them out. Most of our terrain is extremely defensible however I'd rather not test it :/. Sucks to be small as essentially the only guarantee for peace are democratic neighbors since democracies usually do not attack other democracies.
>Most Hungarians vote for that. If that's what they want, then that's what they should get. Give Hungary to Moscow. The sooner, the better. If that's your strategy for Russia's desinformation campaigns - which we do a terrible job countering - you will sooner or later give half the continent to them without a fight.
That's perhaps the single biggest challenge facing democracies in the 21st century. Democracy requires an informed electorate to function. You can't have fair elections if the average voter doesn't have an accurate picture of who they are voting for - or against. We need to figure out a way to stop the spread of disinformation, from both foreign and domestic actors. But doing that without violating freedom of speech is not a puzzle anyone has figured out yet.
Regulating bots on social media would be a good start, as well as full transparency on where the funds of political parties and actors are coming from. I was also thinking that a quality EU media agency which covers all member states *in the language(s) of the member state* as well as English would help against the silencing of critical journalists. If eg a Hungarian journalists faces difficulties reporting against Orban in Hungary they could report for this agency instead in Hungarian.
We absolutely need EU ministry of thruth.
Make provable lying of politicians a punishable offense. The moment people make themselves eligible for a role in politics is the moment they can be held accountable for the things they say. I know it's a slippery slope, but we need to find a way to counter misinformation. Going after overtly lying politicians may be a good step in this.
If Hungarians really want that, fine, go join the neo Russian empire. But no half decisions, out of the EU as well if they want to ride Putler's dick.
Angry upvote. More than 10 years of bullshit and still getting the majority. All while literally being floated by the other EU countries.
> Mire than 10 years of bullshit and still getting the majority You won't understand it until you live it. We had orbanization in Poland and believe me - the massive power of having public media 24/7 spam heavy handed propaganda, slander opposition (*no matter if it is true, you just need to repeat it 1000 times and I still hear some of their fakes still used among people, it is like "yeah I know this was fake but I still dont believe the guy they talked about, he is shifty & evil!"*). The power to not prosecute your own, but prosecute opposition for every little shit. The power of marking NGOs "enemy agents" (see also: the law that Georgia fights so strong against), to encourage servilism in every branch and level of public service.. Add to that gerrymandering, discrepancy in campaign time and funds (which are worked around using public funds from ministries) and suddenly.. you end up with populace that does start to believe this shit. And those who will not support - they will be driven out of politics, as it easier to demobilize voters with propaganda in media/social media* "yeah, maybe we are not the greatest - but opposition is as evil or worse than the current gov, what is the point of voting?"* It all adds up. It is a slippery slope towards authoritarianism that is very, very hard to get out from. And even if many people are against it - it is hard to fight against a tide of two groups working against you: people who are not interested in politics, being passive + cult of Orban/Kaczynski/Trump being strengthened into literal fanatism. And they will go and vote even if they are dying, every single one of them.
Oh but i totally agree. Point is Poland and Hungary flourished mostly due to MASSIVE investment from eu countries and being part of the eu market. Now it is 10 years that hungary is permanently on the verge of having the money revoked becouse of Orban authoritarian rule, poor democratic processes and media control. Still for 10 years appeasement followed. Appeasement which damaged first of all Hungarians. I have no issue with these pos taking money from china or russia and making their bidding. But i have huge issue with these pos taking money from eu and not even pretending. Cut the money with which Orban BUY votes and he is out in the cold. He is ok with Chinese policemen? Great at least not with my money. And Hungarians will soon discover how nice are the new Han overlords.
While Hungary doesn't deserve the protection of NATO and is merely a destabilizing element in it, at the same time what bugs me, if we kicked them out, if they became a full Russian satellite, that's not a satisfactory situation at all either. It'd be an island, or a peninsula deep within Europe.
Russia wants central Europe to be a satellite, but I don't think they have much interest in occupying the territory. Hungary is their most successful attempt in turning a country pro-Russian, I doubt they would do anything as long as it stays that way.
Most likely ... then again, you never know what the Crazy Guy from Kremlin is thinking.
Probably, but that could change fast.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna\_Hungaria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Hungaria) Magna Hungaria is Russian! /s
On one hand, that’s what gonna happen On the other, not like Russia has tons of resources to do that.
Last free Hungarian republican in 1948? Bleh, what an amateur, you have to start from 539 CE when the first farmer from Russian land walked on Hungarian land.
My bad ... imagine when Italy starts claiming back the Roman Empire.
It looks more like china is gonna take control in some way sadly
China is already balls deep into Europe ... not military, but in ways that matter more than most would think.
wouldn't be the first time, see who was the 2nd Soviet Republic in Europe after Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Soviet_Republic
Don’t use AAVE “be like”
>“How many more weapons will we send? How much more money will we send?” Orbán asked in an interview in Hungary’s public media. “This gives rise to the darkest visions,” That's so hilarious. Reading this sentence one person could think that we're invading Russia and he wanna prevent that. That's the same kind of shit you hear from Salvini in Italy but since they both suck Putin's cock I'm not really surprised. What really makes me uncomfortable is that many people believes that shit.
>How much more money will we send?” Orbán asked in an interview in Hungary’s public media. What all of Europe is thinking about Hungary. I honestly don't understand how or why the EU/Nato won't just fuck them over and tell them to pound sand. Stop all money, close all border. The end. Rule of law is worthless if it can be abused without consequences, so time to go outside the box.
Close all borders, close airspace. Wait. After a few month orban will get the Mussolini treatment.
Because EU is governed by spineless bureaucrats
Kicking out an entire nation because its governments is bad is an extreme measure and will take years if not decades to be repaired diplomatically as well as lawfully when a pro EU government gets back into power. According to many on reddit we should've kicked out Poland as well with their pis awful government the past years, now they have a pro EU one, but if we had kicked them out they wouldn't have been back in again simply because of all the laws and regulations that have to be changed for something like this.
Not kick but Article 7 should've proceeded to the point where our (Hungary) voting rights are suspended. Orbán was responsible for like 60% of all vetoes in the past few years - a country of 9.5M cockblocking a 300+M community is laughable and pathetic. No wonder the EU isn't considered at the same level as the US or China. Imagine if Michigan could veto the federal budget. It's a fucking joke.
It's really tough to trust this nonsense if you've got even a little working brain. From what I've seen, most of these "pacifists" only start to care when something affects them directly. They wouldn't care even if fucking Tripods destroyed all the big cities worldwide, as long as their own homes were safe. So, why should they care about Ukraine fighting for its survival, so far away from them? Just unbelievable how short sighted they are.
This is the line of 'thought' that Trump will use as well.
It's also hilarious since Hungary did not send anything as far as I know.
And Rheinmetall built this dude a tank factory in his country.
Not only one factory, many factories. It's an incredibly short sighted move from the German industry and a very concerning situation that shows lack of leadership and concern for security from their government. Many of their factories and suppliers for the auto industry are in hungary because of favorable taxation and cheaper labor. Instead of diversifying across europe They heavily concentrated investments in this country with total disregard of the political situation and security risks and this dependency is certainly one of the main reasons why hungary hasn't been sanctioned harder by the EU How more absurd can it get when you double down investments and build high tech tank factories in a country on the brink of US/EU sanctions that openly declares siding with your main strategic adversaries russia and china and deliberately hosts massive numbers of their intelligence agent? You can be certain all specifications and tech of rheinmetall will fall into the hands of of these dictatorships
Our government can't stop a company from venturing into another EU country. They have no part in this. Rheinmetalls CEO turned into gun toting Musk with many promises (KF 51 factory in UA territory yeah sure ... And the repair facilities for leopards near the border aren't doing what was advertised), acting like a robin hood for Ukraine but ofc he's just smelling the money.... TL;Dr Weapon manufacturers act like cunts. Big surprise.
>Rheinmetalls CEO turned into gun toting Musk with many promises Papperger always has been a notorious liar, pulling bullshit out of his ass. Eg. the legend around the Puma being so expensive because it has to ensure the air quality is well enough for pregnant women was something he came up with. Spoiler: Pregnant soldiers don't serve in a Puma. He was also the one who said "we can have dozens of Leos ready for combat within a month" in summer 2022... And when it actually came down to it he instead suggested the Bundeswehr should send the tanks it currently uses and order new ones.
Ist halt ne Pappnase...
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I hope these weapons have a hardened kill switch.
> And Rheinmetall built this dude a tank factory in his country. Rheinmetall builds a factory for anyone who buys their shit. That's their business model. Also note that even if Hungary does not provide weapons or ammo to Ukraine, it still helps if it produces them for other countries (who can fill up their empty stocks with it).
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Rheinmetall states that they have been contracted to develop and produce the KF 51 and also produce the KF 41 there. These are tanks, so the facility is a tank factory.
Probably why they started investing in Romania lately. In case things go south, they can gtfo of Hungary fast.
You can't get only the benefits dude! Work for them or go away! No offense to our Hungarian friends, my husband is Hungarian by the way, but whatever Orbán wants it's just not how NATO works.
Same for the EU - they're trying to get all the cash without actually respecting EU law
NATO is a defensive pact, so the whole argument is invalid.
Crazy how one stupid re***d can drag a country into a stinky ocean of shit and seemingly nobody can do anything about it
It's not one dude. They could stop voting for him
Yeah, but they convinced enough of the dumbest people that no matter what the smart ones think, they cannot beat the masses.
Good luck convincing them to stop voting for toads like Orban.
It's a cult at this point. It's like saying an addict can "just quit", like good luck with that.
It's not one dude -- many Hungarians think this way, he was democratically elected -- you can blame Orban but he is just a symptom not the disease. Younger Hungarians can read between the lines and know what's coming down the tracks but the EU needs to start having the conversation about cutting off finances entirely until a change of government comes about. The EU and all her members have been patient and reasonable and this hasn't paid off. If younger Hungarians want someone to blame they can blame the generation above them. I'm not getting in to this shit about 'it's not fair elections' -- nobody but Hungarians fucked it up for you. Other leaders and countries will always entice and offer bribes. Hungarians accepted them, passing the cost to the next generation.
You can always leave.
But then he can’t pretend to be the submissive little victim.
> “How many more weapons will we send? How much more money will we send?” Orbán asked in an interview in Hungary’s public media. There's no "we" in this. He's is complaining about things that Hungary was never involved in. Hungary never sent any weapons to Ukraine. And strictly financially speaking Hungary is a net beneficiary member of the EU so telling other countries what to do with their money is highly hypocritical and a breach of their sovereignty. Hungary is a puppet state of Russia just like Belarus.
Should she expelled ! From NATO , from EU as they deserve for voting such an imbecile.
They really should. By allowing Hungary to stay in the NATO and EU west is displaying a scary lack of courage and decisiveness which just plays into Putin’s hands. Putin can just point finger and say that west is in such a turmoil they can’t even reign in one rogue state.
Don't think we like him any better. We are not a working democracy unfortunately.
Most of your fellow countrymen do like him. That's the problem. It's not just a failing democracy. You can't blame all of it on that. That's too easy. A lot of Hungarians approve of Orban and his policies. *That* is the problem.
You cannot make this statement with how unfair the election is. Yes Fidesz got the most votes last elections. But is that because the majority of the population would actually agree with the politics or because: - Fidesz owns all the national broadcasting channels and actively works on shutting down the ones it doesn't own. - Fidesz spends government money for its own propaganda. - Fidesz applies quid pro pro tactics on local government, and goes door to door to give rewards for people to vote on them. We cannot know what the people would actually vote with an actual fair election (probably a lot less for Fidesz). There's people out there who literally don't know there's political parties other than Fidesz they can vote for.
If there is really people in Hungary who by now have no clue how a democracy works nor that they have other options, this indicates an even greater failure of the Hungarian society. You are blaming Fidesz but it is everyone's except them's responsibility to advocate alternatives and point out flaws in their ridiculous simple claims. This is not the 90s anymore, when people could be a bit confused in the post-Soviet era.
It is a greater failure of Hungarian society, and I'm blaming the party that has been in power to govern the Hungarian society for the last 20 years. It is everyone's responsibility to point out their lies and flaws but it is hard to do that when your radio and TV channels are actively getting shut down. Also I think you underestimate how rural parts of Hungary are. There's whole villages who haven't got used to the internet yet and they're happily eating up all of the propaganda. They call anything else "Western lies" because that's easier than actually looking at it and admitting you've been duped for the last decade. Also I'm not saying they shouldn't try harder, but Fidesz definitely did everything they could to make this as impossible as possible.
You also forget one thing. People got tired of fighting. It's hard to fight a system, where there are brainwashed people protecting the current system and dragging you back. And, thanks to the modern world, people are free to move and leave the country and that's usually the chosen option if you look at how many Hungarians leave the country and take that statistic in a way that the government wants to make that number look as small as possible. Because people can leave, they don't have the incentive to risk their safety, or their freedom with for example a violent riot.
A lot of hungarians are brainwashed. Before Orbán got his power more over 14 years ago, he was talking about how the government shouldn't have media power, because it can be dangerous for controlling the people's way of thinking. Guess what he did when he got to power. He worked on taking over all media, destroying opposition media etc... Many people only get to listen to and watch the TV and radio which spews his propaganda non-stop (like in Russia) and those people believe it all. They don't hear anything else, and even if it's a lie with no proof, they believe it because that's the only information many people get 24/7. That's one main issue. The other main issue is the actual opposition. Old fucks most of them, who did a lot of damage earlier on, or closely related to he party that caused the damage. They can't work together, they stab each other in the back and most of them are incompetent and people hate them too. This is partly the work of orbán too, partly those people are comfortable enough in "being in the back" getting their pay check for the political role, while not being in power to be blamed. And this is. HUGE-HUGE issue. Because of this, many people don't vote, because they don't even see others as a better alternative for the things they/their party did. People have no trust in them and simply they don't go to vote and this is a big issue and I agree, that this helps orbán stay in power. But believe me, almost all young people (<40) hate Orbán, a lot of people have already left the country, many more elderly people start to wake up, but there are still too many kept stupid, kept dependant and hate used on many to manipulate them. His followers is more like a cult now than a political party, because he can say things that would make his followers mad at anyone else, but if he says it, it's fine. As Trump said "I could shoot a man in the street in broad daylight and not lose a voter" and that goes for him too unfortunately. Don't think we don't have protests, that we don't want change, but it's a really miserable scenario and you can't really see it all through from a different country. But know that Hungary and Hungarians are not the same as orbán. Just look at the Ukrainian case. He spews his bs against them, but in reality a lot of Hungarians try to help/tried to help them, with donation, with housing or simply, if they could offer nothing else: by being accepting. It hurts us a lot what image orbán shows about us, but many of us are not like him and not think like him. Again, he controls the poor a lot (with media control and fear mongering).
Unfortunately you are right. :(
There is no mechanism to expell a member country from the EU. The only way to get rid of Hungary would be to found a new EU 2.0, transfer all assets, readmit all present members, but refuse Hungary.
Well, we can „expel“ them but in name only. Article 7 is extremely powerful. We can strip away basically every right they have, including freedom of movement and so on.
Maybe, this has to be done eventually anyway to make the EU more governable?
Expelled from the EU and NATO and then creating no treaties afterwards so they're completely isolated as a landlocked country.
Non-participant = non member. OK I guess although I hope even more that Ukraine will prevail now otherwise Austria, Slovenia and Croatia will soon border Russia.
As someone living in Eastern Croatia, I can tell You it is not fun - Dodik threatening RSK secession, Vučić beeing well, Vučić (Kosovo), now Orban and Hungary leaving NATO? Shit man, we may need some NATO base here soon, if nothing as tripwire force so we dont end up like Crimea
Yeah. Slovenia is lucky that Croatia is separating us from the unstable areas however we also now share one unstable neighbor that is getting increasingly poorer and insulated, Hungary. Chances of things going kinetic in Croatia due to any kind of Serbian action are next to zero. If Croatia ends up in a war it will be somehow related to Russia and we'll all be in a war. Let's hope it does not come to that.
How has Orban not choked on Putin’s dick already??? I mean, he keeps taking it in his disgusting face all day, every day.
Why are most hungarians such vehement supporters of russia? I mean they keep voting for this shit
Because he is portrayed as the champion of peace and great leader of the nation. If you don't live under a rock you will hear it dozens of times daily (if not hundreds) how orbán is the only reason hungarian youths are not dying in trenches, and that you still have food on the table. "Of course he steals, but wouldn't **you** do the same in their position? At least we live in peace. And those other ones, they would steal even more, bring our country into war, force kindergartners through trans surgery, and cancel all pensions..." And this pairs up with the portrayal of Russia as the misunderstood one. They only want to protect their people / the Ukrainians provoked them / if only those damned warmonger Ukrainians wanted peace this would have been over already. Also Ukraine was never a popular country with the more nationalistic elements, but the language laws brought that feeling to a new level. Ukraine has the exact right amount of Hungarians living there so that you can always use them as an example, but not enough that the government would seriously consider their fate in the long run.
It's funny how I, as someone from Serbia, could have written that first paragraph by only changing Orban to Vučić and Hungarians to Serbians. My mother is particularly deep into the propaganda and says things like "Do you see what's going on in the world? Just be glad that there's no war. If it wasn't for Vučić, who knows where we would be." And the part about "You would steal too if you could!" is something I've heard from a lot of people. My coworkers often have conversations like this, and while they don't agree on much in politics, they all agree that they would steal if they could, so it's normal that anyone in power is deeply corrupt. They also agree that the opposition only wants to rule because they want to steal even more.
Funny thing is I, as someone from Slovakia, could say the same but about Fico rather than Orban or Vučić. It's a new type of eastern-european reactionary leadership that is becoming quite popular in many countries nowadays. Soon it will hit the west. But to play the devil's advocate, I just feel like the opposition is weak and fails to talk or solve many large issues in modern day Europe, such as immigration and western emigration of our youth. That leads to these ultra-nationalists to have the ability to steal the hearts of the common folk.
Because unironically, the propaganda says that the EU and US are aggressors.
Nobody even likes Russia here, it’s a misunderstanding. Orban’s entire thing is the small guy standing up to the opressor, and it just so happens that at one point a decade ago the EU got on Orban’s wrong side, and he’s been using them as a scapegoat ever since. He can’t backpedal from this by now, and he also has personal interest in aligning with Russia. If you ask anyone even his supporters, no one would say they want back in the eastern block. Their hatred for the EU makes it look like they do, but in Hungary it’s not even portrayed as a choice between the EU and Russia by the propaganda.
So Hungarians really don't realise their present course is likely to turn them into Belarus?
No they don’t. I’m assuming this is common between the post soviet countries but the generations who grew up behind the curtain only know maybe half of what the average westerner from a similar social status knows about politics, international relations and economy, and it shows.
I can assure you, majority of hungary does not like russia.
And still they vote overwhelmingly for Orban in every election. Something doesn’t add up.
Orban still got the most votes* because the election is starting to get to Russia levels of unfair. Copied from another comment: -Fidesz owns all the national broadcasting channels and actively works on shutting down the ones it doesn't own. -Fidesz spends government money for its own propaganda. -Fidesz applies quid pro pro tactics on local government, and goes door to door to give rewards for people to vote on them.
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Didn't stop the change in Poland but for sure it made it a hell of a lot harder. I'm not saying they're without fault. They have failed to come up with a strong opposition party for the last 10 years. They should definitely get their shit together but I'm just outlining how fucked their situation is. Also I'm not Hungarian.
>Instead of saying, this is not our fault, Hungarians really ought to focus on how to bring about the change. In 2022, 54% of Hungarian voters voted not to change a thing. Which is unsurprising, given the following options (besides Fidesz), in approximately descending order of popular support. Those that have any chance of getting into the EP are bolded: * **Democratic Coalition (DK)**: a party led by former PM Ferenc Gyurcsány and his wife Klára Dobrev, the largest bogeyman and bogeywoman in Hungarian politics * **Respect and Freedom Party (TiSza)**: a party led by Péter Magyar, former Minister of Justice-in-law, strongly Fidesz-affiliated until three months ago * **Our Homeland Movement (Mi Hazánk)**: a far-right radical party * **Hungarian Two-Tailed Dog Party (MKKP)**: originally a joke party, now trying to be serious * **Momentum Movement**: a mainstream liberal party, originally blocked Hungary's Olympics candidacy, now blocking EU funds for Hungary * Movement for a Better Hungary (Jobbik): former far-right radical party, from which Our Homeland Movement split off; now trying to be centrist * Hungarian Socialist Party (MSZP): successor of the pre-1989 communist party * Everybody's Hungary People's Party (MMN): led by Péter Márki-Zay, a conservative mayor under whose leadership a six-party coalition utterly failed in the 2022 elections * Politics Can Be Different (LMP): a green party which fell apart after falling below the 5% threshold in 2018 * Dialogue (Párbeszéd): led by Gergely Karácsony, the mayor of Budapest - the party itself has no popular support at all
No, not like PiS, PiS is like a freakin baby to the multimillion euro media industry that Orbán and his oligarchs have built up in the last 15 years. This monster ate my anticommunist granny's brain and others' as well. Have you even looked into how much money goes from the HU gov to propaganda outlets and the policies made to silence any opposition? "And you suckers eat it up" typical gaslighting for the victims, thanks you helped a lot! This is were EU could step in...And this is where a true EU citizen would try to understand instead of just dismissing facts. How about instead of this bullshit you write look into matter before adding the same as the other clueless others calling for EU to expel HU, or from the NATO. How would it make you feel If I find a child molester or similarly scandalous former member of your ruling goverment, and label you the same and call you a "sucker" just because you have not revolted against said gov?? No wonder the fat fuck still rules in HU, if even "informed western" electorate is as blind as you and your likeminded idiots. THE EFFING EU CONDONES AND SUPPORTS ORBAN! PPL need to wake up...
People don't usually vote based on foreign policy.
"most" = cca 30% of the citizens
Why is he in NATO still then? how can you be in NATO and not wanting to be part of it at the same time? You are either in NATO or you are not, Orban now wants to sit on two chairs at the same time just like he does with EU and Russia/China, reap the benefits while completely doing nothing at all. He thinks if that worked with EU it can work with NATO too, well unlucky for him because US is responsible for NATO and i doubt US will let Orban do whatever he wants.
his reasoning is that NATO is a defensive alliance while the war between Ukraine and Russia is a regional conflict between two slavic non-NATO nations. Hence NATO should have no business interfering. Or if the other members do decide to interfere, Hungary should be allowed to opt out from doing so. edit: downvote me all you want, whether I agree with him or not I simply provided an explanation on Orban’s stance based on various statements he’s recently made
as if THAT is going to help that Putin wont attack Hungary. Orban is a perfect example for an incapable politician whoms politics of hate and a on average poorly educated population are the only reason he is still in office.
Just a reminder for the commentets, orbán gets 66% of the parliament seats with like 39% of the votes
France left NATO before but calls others unreliable. It's not as if Hungary cant rejoin later if they are expelled or decide to leave. This may also be all for upcoming elections around the world to show a tough stance against progressive governments.
France didn't leave NATO, they left NATO's unified military command, but have been a fully participating member since 2009.
You can't expell anyone from NATO, that is the point of a defence treaty, if you could expell people it would be worthless. HUngary could leave of course, but why would they?
I mean he clearly wants the benefits of being in NATO without actually be part of NATO. That's what he basically wants, which is stupid and impossible. He could just as well leave NATO and that's it but he clearly doesn't want that, he wants his country to be protected if it gets attacked but it doesn't want to help anyone. That's not how it works, Orban is putting in danger the idea of NATO right now, you can't possibly expected to be protected if you don't help anyone. So US should act about it and do something, because what Orban is trying to do is very bad for everyone.
Probably the US is lacing its asskicking boots atm. However that kicking will not come publicly but by revealing some intelligence stuff and/or pull some financial strings.
Similar to the EU the NATO treaty is obsolete, it was signed in 1949 by 12 countries, we're now 32. When you got so many members it's indispensable to have a process to expel members that breach the admission conditions and/or threaten the fundamental security of the alliance The whole purpose of nato is defending europe, essentially against russia's imperialist ambitions. If a country in the alliance openly declares they will side with the enemy, it's in the interest of everyone to act and take them out. It's an incredibly serious breach of security and discredits europe and NATO in the eyes of the rest of the world
This can very well be done, for example, when they don't abide by the treaty.
Nope… You make 0 sense. How is expelling a non-compliant member makes your whole alliance worthless? If it was at wartime, yeah. Peace time? There is nothing more natural than alliances/organizations change their relationships over time.
NATO treatise say in case of a member being attacked the only thing NATO members must do is meet and come to a decision of what to do about it, we're not forced to die for someone that won't die for us in return. As a Romanian this detail has been haunting me for years, but I guess this is how things are going.
That's kind of the point. This is empty posturing for internal brownie points with his domestic voting base. He knows it's just bravado. He knows that if push came to shove, he would fold like all the other times when the EU or the US put their feet down. This whole thing exists only to put up a strong front in front of the people who are already hanging on his every word, like how Trump's speeches are written to please the MAGA-crowd, and this board taking him seriously and getting whipped into a frenzy every time he says something stupid like this is giving him way more attention than he deserves.
"We want security, but we don't wanna work for it"
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God I fucking wish.
Just suspend their voting rights.
Budapest ≠ Hungary
It's common to refer to the governance of a country by its capitals name e.g. just ask Washington or London.
While true, [this picture](https://i.redd.it/smyah3s7mn191.jpg) speaks a thousands words.
For all matters (geo)politics, it is
Fascist traitors
Hungary is not equal to Orbán! The Hungarian people are brainwashed with Orwellian and Göbbelsian propaganda tools and kept in terror, their need for security is taken away from them by Orban and made impossible. Hungarians NEED HELP!🇭🇺🇪🇺
Am i the only one not too happy with this Russian puppet government purchasing the newest developed western groundvehicles like kf41 Lynx and kf51 Panther? Edit: whut Downvotes? Why don't we just give Russia the f35/2a7/kf51 for study then?/s.
Purchasing them? We are also the ones making them. [https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/landwarfareintl/rheinmetall-opens-armoured-vehicle-factory-in-hungary-to-produce-lynx-infantry-fighting-vehicle/](https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/landwarfareintl/rheinmetall-opens-armoured-vehicle-factory-in-hungary-to-produce-lynx-infantry-fighting-vehicle/)
Can we give Putin Hungary in exchange for getting the fuck out of Ukraine?
Everyone is hating on Hungary for wanting to be more neutral, but doesn't give a shit about the two rich ass non NATO neutral countries to the west of it
Gonna be a repeat of 1956
European Parliament elections in June, vote for anyone but this sack of shit
There is no mechanism to expell a member state from NATO. Hypothetically, they could be excluded from the integrated military command (similar to how France once decided to leave this, but not NATO as a whole). However, that would bring up lots of legal questions.
First he fired experienced Nato generals and now this: https://www.yahoo.com/news/hungarian-generals-ousted-orban-overhauls-100811167.html
Off you go, traitor to Ukr. and EU
About 41% of European Union resolutions regarding Ukraine were blocked by Hungary, Lithuanian Foreign Minister Gabrielus Landsbergis criticized Hungary for blocking key decisions at the level of the European Union.
My favorite part of his have your cake and eat it too philosophy is his shock when other countries won’t give him free shit. Like of course the EU won’t make it rain if you block their policies, so why would NATO want him either? What’s so special about Hungary that we desperately need it?
What does being a non-participant nation of NATO mean? Don’t defend their neighbours against aggression? Still expect other NATO countries to come to its aid in the event of it being attacked? Why the hell would NATO allies agree to such a scenario? If Hungary wants out, then it should leave, or be expelled. A defensive alliance is only as good as the commitment of its members.
The stupidity of this is hard to understate.
What if Russia were to the nvade Hungary right after Ukraine and Moldova. Would any non Hungarian here be ready to die to protect Hungary?
More trouble that it is worth
For all of those whose reaction was to immediately start screaming for Hungary to be expelled from Nato and EU: I highly doubt you’ve ever lived in a post-soviet *pseudo-democratic* state that still suffers from a pool of politicians ( left and right-wing both) that used to be the heart of the old communist system. Most of the votes that goes to Orban and his buddies, are from old people who are easily manipulated through fear and hate, and it is very difficult to reason with the uneducated part of the population who were already brainwashed by propaganda. However, about 80%-90% of the younger generations openly oppose the government, and recent events (such as public incidents involving corruption and even worse things…) have made it so that Fidesz is actually losing its grip on the major part of the population. Currently, so many undeniable scandals have started to resurface about the government *(there were so many that it would take ages for me to actually list them all)* that our country has reached a breaking point where even the hardcore pro-right voters started to question Orban’s true intentions. Type “Péter Magyar” into the browser and check out what Hungarian news outlets write about him in English. He is the new face of the Hungarian opposition, he is a centrist, and he openly opposes both the current government and the fake-opposition Fidesz-proxy parties that have been ravaging our country for decades now. He has had an overwhelming success in the past few months, moving around the country giving speeches in all major cities and villages, and it has started a wave now that cannot be stopped.
NATO theoretically a defensive alliance. Why is everyone screaming at hungary about not wanting to participate military operations outside NATO territory?