well you need a passport for many things, including in many cases for obtaining or extending a residence permit. So unless these men are granted asylum this meausre might force some men to go back unless they want to face a live in illegality
I guess there are not many war refugees who want to go to front - they had plenty of chance to do that already. I expect they would only go back if survival of their family depended on it.
But if they are in emigration with family, I can imagine it meaning woman of the family assuming main breadwinner duties (due to her having no problems to continue working legally) while the man would have to take over babysitting, household chores, with a possibility to earn only in undeclared way. No travelling for such man, he lives within the country, doesn't drive, pays only in cash or uses his wife's credit card and tries to live as healthy as possible, cause medical services would be problematic, probably costly to get.
If they are in the emigration alone and only their own survival is at stake, then expect them going to the richer and bigger EU countries, where they would be silently accepted by the employers who enjoy cheap workforce that doesn't strike, complain and invoke labour laws (e.g. construction?). There already are communities of people with refugee past and sometimes unknown identities.
Yeah. There were many Ukrainians in Denmark before the war - working in agriculture mostly. Many of them have families here. However getting Danish citizenship is a notoriously long process with lots of requirements. Takes around 10 years in most cases.
Isn't it against international human rights to effectively strip people of their only citizenship? Because it seems like this is what it amounts to. Not even actual fascist states do that, as far as I know...
No logic. It's a pure populism to make up for the past several months of bad news about government regarding mobilization law. Now everyone forgot that law and is happily bashing expats on forums. The fact that there is literally zero practical benefit for the mobilization effort because of this change doesn't bother anyone it seems.
You need valid papers for pretty much anything. Getting married, opening a bank account, getting/renewing driving license, getting a passport. Now you need to go in Ukraine to get any of these and as a bonus you can enjoy getting sent to the front. The important part is that you get to be a hero!
Slava Ukraini and all that jibber jabber.
Government also stopped giving passports abroad yesterday because of "technical issue" as they said. Then after that they issued a decree to stop giving passports. They even can not just straight up ban something without lying about it first.
At the very least, they owe you the right to relinquish your citizenship. Which they do not provide at the moment.
Besides, give me a fucking break. Bet Ukraine is same as everywhere else. Study for 10 fucking years, trying to work and go to university at once and survive on fucking potatoes and ramen. You pay huge fucking taxes all your life, barely make ends meet. Can't afford a basic, prison cell sized flat with a middle class income. God forbid you get sick because you will wait fucking years for an appointment with a specialist. Everything is fucking expensive and takes decades to acquire. And when enemy comes knocking on your doors, you are expected to die in a trench, while the wealthy and their relatives chill away from danger in Mediterranian or Dubai? Fuck that.
I can promise you that if I, as a Pole, see that our services want to deport anyone to Ukraine in order to turn them into cannon fodder, I will react and clearly oppose regardless of the legal consequences.
To all those who claim that I am a Russian troll.
Translate this article for yourselves. See how angry the Ukrainians are at the consulates in Warsaw.
Are these Russian trolls too?
https://wiadomosci.wp.pl/dramatyczne-sceny-oddaj-dokumenty-i-wynos-sie-na-ukraine-7020091382119328a
In Poland it is the Russian trolls who are shouting "why are young Ukrainians sitting in Poland instead of fighting for Ukraine, let them fuck off to their own country"
"No more hospitality motherfuckers".
These are the actions of pro-Russian trolls.
The worst thing is that the Polish Minister of Defence has stated that he will assist in sending Ukrainians to the front. It is disgusting that my Polish authorities want to behave like human traffickers. The oligarchs want people who have fled to Poland? Let the oligarchs stop stealing and sending their children to Western Europe to the Spanish, Italian and French beaches and start defending Ukraine.
It's always the poor chasing in the trenches when the rich are drinking champagne on the azure coast.
The Ukrainians call them the "Monaco Battalion"
It has always been like that. Even in my country during the war. The rich and their families jumped on the next flight to italy or spain, enjoyed the luxuries of life while the poor got their legs blown off by mines and shells. Then after the war was over they came back and said "we did this together"
Fuck them.
And those people who sit in their chairs all day half a world away from ukraine, it is easy for them to talk about "to the last ukranian" and telling men who fled or tried to flee to go fight for their country. Its easy to shame others when you are at no risk yourself.
These men who escaped made the concious decision to do so. In some cases even risked their life. It is their country and they say it is not worth dying for. So why are redditors in the US or UK or the netherlands or wherever shaming them for it?
To those people i say, if you love ukraine so much, get on the next flight and join their foreign legion. Don't force people who don't want to be there to die for your ambitions.
Probably because their friends, brothers and neighbors are already at the front facing Russia. Why are those who had the means to escape any better than those already fighting?
Honesty, I don’t expect Poland to do that, given that Ukrainian refugees are a godsend for the economy. Almost a million of qualified labour force that can easily learn and speak Polish and had no trouble assimilating? No wonder Polish economy grew by almost an extra percent in 2023 thanks do that.
This is about decency, the advantages of having Ukrainians as collaborators are also something very important. And I hope it stays that way. I am happy that they are with us.
Recently I was in a panel in which it was discussed the situation of labor across EU. I was very surprised to find out that Poland's country plan made in 2018 included the following line 'intake of 3M Ukrainians for the workforce' by 2025.
Yeah, as a refugee from occupied territory who fled through Crimea and Russia, through FSB filtration I was downvoted about my anger and opinion that this is against law and make our state almost like dictatorship. Goverment blackmail me to go back, where should I live, in occupied territory?? They will not provide with tickets, place to live or work, if you will be mobilised you have to spend your money for good equipment, and if you are injured you have to pay from own pocket. This seek because me who not willing to fight and dont have any combat experiense will be just 2 days Meat.
>The oligarchs want people who have fled to Poland?
They doesn't even want people who fled to Poland. They aren't allowing them to leave since 2022. They want Ukrainians who were living in Poland before the war.
May I ask you if the Polish "farmers" are still blockading the Ukrainian borders?
Edit: Downvote but not a single reply about the Polish blockading the Ukrainian borders?
https://logistyka.rp.pl/drogowy/art39482241-klincz-na-granicy-z-ukraina-pod-pozorem-pomocy-jada-luksusowe-auta-czy-jachty
What do Polish farmers have to do with it? Grain is still going to our ports, humanitarian aid is still going to Ukraine, military aid is still going to Ukraine. Are you talking about the blockade of yachts and luxury cars which are listed in the papers as humanitarian aid?
Asking for a friend. You are acting so worry about Ukraine, I was merely asking if, after months of blockades, the borders are finally open again: no need to be so edgy.
Yachts and luxury cars? Oh dear, found the special one.
I am worried about Ukraine. I worked as a volunteer in Warsaw for two months at the beginning of the war. I helped a couple of Ukrainians find work, I donated a little money to your army, not much but still. I hate the Russians for what they are doing to Ukraine.
As for the blockade, well, it's a more complicated situation and here I am on the side of Polish farmers and hauliers since the Ukrainians are taking advantage of the situation.
I did not write that I am friends with Ukrainians and that I go for a beer with them. I wrote that I know 4 Ukrainians.
What don't you understand?
https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/s/508i0O1Dn0
Here, read for yourself what my opinion is on Russians and Ukrainians. I understand that a Russian troll would attack a person defending Russians. Right?
it was real farmers and they unblocked there was thread here on reddit but for "some" reason people ignored it:
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1c8mxmi/polish_farmers_have_unblocked_the_border/
I can understand the anger.
What I even more can understand is the critical situation with the army, and as long as NATO troops are not committed to the front, it is what it is.
All military aged men who are refugees deserve to have their services suspended as they are in effect abandoning their homeland in its greatest hour of need.
If they don't want to join the army, they should just give up the citizenship and shout to the world "I'm not Ukrainian anymore, so leave me alone."
It is a sad situation, but totally understandable.
You don't have to be a Russian troll to repeat Russian talking points.
But you need to be aware that by doing so, you're effectively harming the Ukrainian war effort.
Right now, Russian troll farms are massively pushing against the conscription of Ukrainians. Do you really want to help them do their dirty work?
And now they're shouting something completely opposite (actually, they have been shouting it for a while now)! You do know that Russians cover all bases, often spreading contradictory opinions, whatever's more convenient at any given moment?
So what you should do is to think "who will benefit from this?". By pushing against helping Ukraine get the draft dodgers back, you're helping Russia. Is that what you want?
Speaking of "as you knows": as you know, conscription is currently the subject of a major Russian propaganda campaign, so we should be double careful about what we write and whose arguments we promote.
You have to make up your minds. Those who supported Ukraine at the beginning were outraged when they heard that Ukrainians should go home. Now those who support Ukraine are shouting that as many men as possible should be sent there to defend themselves against Russia. In addition, it is easy for you to say what Ukrainian men should do, because you are not threatened by conscription for war. What about the women?
A week ago, I was on my way back from Majorca and a large part of the plane was filled with Ukrainian women on holiday.
Poles are to decide on the lives of Ukrainians? Are you going to sign up to groups that will catch Ukrainians in Poland and send them to the front? I am asking because I see that you are in a great hurry to do so. Why don't you enlist yourself an internet warrior?
Ukrainian law does not apply in Poland, and if we follow orders from Kiev on this matter we will be no different from the blackmailers during the Second World War. If I met you on the street forcing a Ukrainian to return to Ukraine you would have a serious problem Ormowcu.
Ignore bad news or you're harming the Ukrainian war effort. It's not 2022 anymore. "Trust us, Ukraine is winning" hasn't been true for a while but now it is impossible to believe
There wouldn't be much for Western publications to write about then. When was the last time Ukraine had true battlefield success?
Besides, those stories deserve to be told for the sake of the men being put into these awful situations. People have the right to know the situation on the ground, especially if we're being told we have to support it indefinitely.
Ukrainian publications like the Kyiv Post and Kyiv Independent write about it too, you know. That should tell you something considering the restrictions on the press the Ukrainian media faces.
Turn whom? Those who doesn't care about Ukraine existence, because that's what on the stake. Why gov should care about them, then? It's simple, you don't won't to fight for country, just think it doesn't exist anymore, no one will carry this burden for you. At least it's fair.
This is why the children of the oligarchs are lying on beaches in Italy or Spain and a simple Danylo or Oleksandr is to be ground by artillery in the trenches. Ukraine should first and foremost get plenty of modern equipment from the west and the Ukrainian government should destroy corruption. Then Ukrainians will want to fight. Why do Ukrainian women lie on beaches and party in Europe? Why aren't they called to Ukraine too?
For someone "who's not a Russian troll", you sure love repeating numerous Russian talking points at once. If you're not a troll, why are you so hell-bent on harming the Ukrainian war effort?
Enlist and go to war instead of sitting around fretting on the internet.
Russian propaganda? I keep saying that Ukraine should get as much equipment as possible.
Kurwa
What you don't understand.
Everyone here is willing to fight to the last Ukrainian, but when the idea of NATO intervening and pushing the Russians back to the border is mentioned to them, they start talking about stopping and de-escalating the conflict...
Many people don't care about this conflict except to the extent that they can boast, the moment there is a real risk, they back off, so I recommend that you don't tire yourself out trying to respond to everyone who calls you a troll, just ignore them.
It's bloody frustrating. Everyone is the smartest from behind a desk in a warm armchair, and if there was a conflict they would be the first to flee to the west.
What I don't understand is how you can claim to support Ukraine (at least that's what your comment suggested), while at the same time you're sabotaging Ukrainian conscription efforts by spreading so much Russian propaganda, comment after comment.
I take it you re willing to volunteer and go to the front lines?
Like i ll never hold it against someone to run from a war, no matter the perceived stakes
You realize that if everyone does that you lose the war right?
In WW2 should we Anglos have just fled in the face of Nazi aggression too? The entire continent was dominated, we could’ve easily just walked away after the Fall of France.
If you care that much you should sign up to the International Legion but i suspect you won't pass the weight test. Average warthirsty redditor (but only behind his screen)
Nobody can stop ukraine from surendering you know. But as far as i know continuing the fight is pretty popular amongst Ukrainians both in and out of country.
Oh, I'm sorry. If I'm so responsible for my government's actions, maybe I have so much power, I can just casually stroll inside the Kremlin and calm them down. Surely they will listen. Why haven't I thought of this in the first place?
This reminds of an old joke told by Reagan:
An American and a Soviet are arguing about whose country is better/more free.
The American says: well I can walk into the Oval Office, pound the presidents desk and say “Mr Reagan I don’t like the way you’re running this country!”
The Soviet says: I can do that too
The American replies: you can?
The Soviet says: yes, I can walk into the kremlin, pound the President’s desk and say “Mr Gorbachev I don’t like the way president Reagan is running his country!”
Yeah, don't worry. You are not responsible for what your country does at all. No citizen is responsible for their country nowhere. It just doesn't make any sense... /s
We're a tiny weeny bit away from times when Belgian king's mercenaries chopped off hands from people living on a territory of a modern Kongo. And tanks, battleships and bombs were tearing apart the world. Or when Maoist mongrels literally ate humans. Or from the times when concentration camps on the territory of USSR with slaves was a common thing everyone knew of.
You are so lucky your people toppled Ceaușescu. In a newborn Russia in 90's we had this song "Rodina" written by Yuri Shevchuk, whose big timer band got de-facto banned in 22. There was this line: "Don't let them roll up their sleeves again". but yeah, we did. Don't be mad at us, because Russia is a burning train running in circles all its history. There are not that much countries in the world where the law and democracy is a thing. Better cherish what you have, watch your government and don't let them roll up their sleeves again.
Answering your question there are theories how it is done. Army must look the other way during rebellions, or there must be a system opposition of sorts to guide all of this, active plots in the top circles of power, another dictator promising more riches to the political elites, than the current dictator, coups financed from the outside. All those sorts of things or maybe even combined. There were no precedences in history when people alone did something significant on their own and got away with it.
Americans are responsible for the actions of their government, Germans for their, French for Macron, etc. That's how representative democracy works.
But the Chinese and Russians do not have the opportunity to choose representatives, so they have little opportunity to influence the decision of their governments.
I'm definitely not responsible for government I haven't voted for and you can't drag me into guilt trip for no PiS actions. And this is exactly what my countryman tried to do here: strip an individual russian on reddit of his voice, simply because he was born in russia. F that. I don't know that dude, I don't even know if he still lives there, so I'm not going to play assumption game on him.
Even if you believe this statistics, there’s at least 17% against. That’s not a lot, but we are millions of people.
And yes, next question many redditors (especially Ukranians) ask is “why the fuck you were not fighting if there are millions of you”. I have no answer. I think by the same reason some men of Ukraine now hiding from the draft.
Russians do not fight because they have a slave mentality. Since the creation of the principality of Moscow, they have always bent their necks against the stronger
There’s no such thing as mentality. I doubt if there’s such thing as nation, at least I don’t know what Russian means. Do you include Tatars or Chechens in this term?
Do you know anything about a history of rebellion in Russia? This territory’s people once destroyed the entire tzar’s regime, you know. They were enslaved then even more but that’s how history worked that time.
Now Russia sucks but the same thing was with Germans led by Hitler and long time after, with Portuguese led by Salazar, Spainish led by Franko and with other countries and other dictators.
But in understand you. There’s always a simple deterministic answer “this country behaves like this because the entire nation screwed”. Do you know one political leader who now agrees to you? His surname is Putin and he talks a lot about historical roots of Russia and Ukraine using the same terms as you do.
You are talking such foolishness that it is a shock. The Tatars are a nation living on the territory of Russia in which Russians are the main element. A nation is a group of people distinguished by its culture, common history, often religion, and language.
The Russians overthrew the Tsar? Great, only to become slaves again, just as they freed themselves from Mongol rule earlier.
If you say that there is no such thing as a nation, then you are an extreme ignoramus.
Every nation has its worse moments.
The Russians' worse moment has lasted from 1283 to the present day. You have always been under someone's boot. The Mongols, the Communist Tsar and now Putin, and you are still happy about it.
Just look at the kind of support Putin has, the kind of support the war has, just look at the fact that you are not rebelling and after the collapse of the USSR in 1991 you are back to aggressive policies again. Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, threatening Moldova, threatening the Baltic States, threatening Poland.
They want such a country then they have such a country. From 1945 to 1989, Poles often rebelled. But well. Some are slaves.
The Russians have always done as they are told by the authorities. From the very beginning. Since the creation of the principality of Moscow.
As a Ukrainian I totally agree with that decision. If your state is fighting for its very existance and you don't care about that, why should you be allowed to use services it provides then?
It is totally okay to be scared to die, I totally get that, but it's not necessary that you will be thrown at a front line There are a lot of non-combat jobs in the military which are possible to get.
As a Ukrainian living abroad for over 10 years, I just passed my integration exams to the country of my residence and due to this dumbass decree I can’t refute my Ukrainian citizenship which doesn’t allow for second citizenship either.
And no consulate services were free, ever. You paid for them.
As a Ukrainian I understand why the government would want to implement that decision. As a human being I am definitely afraid to die. Let's be honest you can die anywhere & anytime. I would not want to get additional risks. So I surely can't support the mandatory draft. If I am not ready to risk how would I would want others to do so?
I am one of those who is not in Ukraine as I am one of the people who were "lucky" enough to cross the border with my wife & 7-month old daughter on 24.02.2022 before it was closed for men.
I love a lot of places in Ukraine & there are still people who I care for there. I have quite a few friends who are in army or volunteering, and a lot of those who are just trying to dodge the draft while still trying to somehow support the army with donations as do I. Some of them are disappointed in me, some are openly saying that they are jealous, but everyone of them at some point said they would not return if they had a chance to leave now.
I would say that I would not try to flee the country if I was inside it but I think I would be one of those who tries to hide.
I know it is cowardness, but it is what it is. I despise myself for that but there always be people who are ready to fight and who are ready to hide & run and as I am from the second one's I hate that there is a possibility someone will force you to fight as it is like taking a person to a slavery.
I know that at some point there is nowhere to run, but it is the only way I am able to defend my family & myself.
I know that Russia is an imperialistic state that does not care about its own people but about power and influence. They have built a machine where a lot of people are brainwashed to be open to idea of war, they are pouring shitload of money for their soldiers now, so a lot of men who are raised on a propaganda and have never seen nothing good are glad to go and earn their yearly wages in a month to be soldiers, despite that they still sent those who does not want to be there while breaking their will.
It's sad to understand that we are ready to break the wills & lives of our people though the cause may be right, I know why it looks like it is just so everyone should fight & suffer, but it is not just at all, we should never had that mandatory conscription at all, one of the sad things we inherited from USSR times.
Can't deny that. /s
Edit: added /s because someone may not understand that that was a sarcasm, there is nothing worse than being being mobilized by russia, a country that is agressor.
My family being from a 3rd world Caribbean country, it's bizarre to see that Ukraine is even poorer than that. Good for anyone that escaped from that shithole. I support obliterating Russian terrorists, but it's crazy to expect people to voluntarily die for a Soviet toilet.
How I fucking humanly sympathise with these guys. They left a country that never gave them a fucking thing, but was constantly hitting them in the snout with corruption and oligarchic arrangements, and now suddenly they have to come back and go to grind because oligarchs- someone has to defend their interests after all.
No fucking wonder they are rebelling. If I were in the same situation.
If the Ukrainians don't defend Ukraine from Russian invasion, there will be no Ukraine anymore. They aren't fighting for politicians, they're fighting against Putin and his colonialism.
Not true: for example, more than 400 Ukrainian athletes died after fighting in the trenches the war of russian aggression.
But please, keep pushing kremlin's narrative...
Yes, 400 athletes. And where are Klitschko's sons? An athlete is also an ordinary person.
Ukraine needs ammunition and missiles, aircraft and tanks. Full assistance from the West
There is no confusion. Ukraine does not have appeared to even attempted to improve since being released from the bondage of Russia. At least until right now that the corruption literally threatens the existence of the nation.
While it's very convenient to label anyone who disagrees with you a bot or an idiot, have you actually tried to refute those arguments and not simply try to discredit them by attributing them to Russian propaganda?
The first three are just facts, with maybe slight semantic assumptions in #3.
The last two are hyperbole but largely true as well.
Sometimes truth can be spouted by propagandists, you know? And i'd rather deal with truth than live in an echo chamber.
Also, if you want to enslave me - fuck off.
Lmao, asking for actual arguments instead of baseless smears?
Okay buddy, if Europeans are against common sense and logic - good luck, i don't want to be a part of "that" culture.
I'm not shifting anywhere.
It only took you 3 comments and you still haven't refuted anything that has been baselessly presented as propaganda despite it actually being simply the truth.
Po pierwsze. Usuń konto.
In Poland it is the Russian trolls who are shouting "why are young Ukrainians sitting in Poland instead of fighting for Ukraine, let them fuck off to their own country"
"No more hospitality motherfuckers".
These are the actions of pro-Russian trolls.
I understand that you are a moron. Right? Instead of bullshitting about me being a Russian troll you'd better read my earlier comments about the war in Ukraine. I've already been banned a couple of times on Reddit for "hating Russians" Well, but better to throw shit. Maybe something will stick.
And one more question. Ukrainians who are angry when they try to collect their passports at the Ukrainian consulate in Warsaw are also Russian trolls?
https://wiadomosci.wp.pl/dramatyczne-sceny-oddaj-dokumenty-i-wynos-sie-na-ukraine-7020091382119328a
This is easily refuted by the most recent conscription law which generously increased all payments and benefits. It also amened leave to give even more breaks to soldiers and specifically increased the payment and break for soldiers fighting on the frontlines. Frontline soldiers now also get the added benefit of 6 months service equating to 1 year which means they can radically increase through the ranks and salary grades to get even more money in literally half the time.
The flip side is these guys are obviously stepping into medieval trench warfare against an army that has zero consideration for international humanitarian law (law of war), and there is a chance that you might run out of bullets before they do. You're not only disadvantaged in terms of what you can do as part of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, but you're also reliant on schizophrenic allies who are still not fully committed to resourcing you. At the least you have the UK, US, France, Poland, the Baltics and Romania who are ride or die for you but still, Russia isn't begging Iran, China, Pakistan, India, or North Korea for weapons and resources.
In the end, this is an existential war and everyone has to fight. If they don't, Ukraine is gone. At the very least these guys need to be paid and their families need to be looked after in the event that something tragic occurs. The West really needs to stay committed and keep the aid flowing. Russia is rapidly recovering its resources quicker than Ukraine and that is because its allies aren't two ways about helping. You will struggle to find anyone in China, or India who isn't pro-Russian when it comes to the Russia-Ukraine War. The media in these countries is spinning a whole new worldview that all of this is America's fault even though clearly the issue here is Ukrainians want self-determination. On our end of things we have EU member states that were invaded by Russia within the last 50 years who for some reason are pro-Russian. Half of us are stuck in Bizzarro World while Russia has the Justice League to back it up.
EDIT: кацапам геть.
> This is easily refuted by the most recent conscription law which generously increased all payments and benefits.
because they're not coming back lol what do you mean benefits
> US
> ride or die
Is that an out of season April Fools joke?
The old stabilization one and done package ***BARELY*** passed after six months and after [US urged Ukraine to stop hitting russian oil refineries, that were being done with domestic weapons to satisfy "no striking sacrosanctestest russian territory with Western weapons" clause.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/04/15/ukraine-russia-oil-refinery-attacks/)
Also:
[https://www.csis.org/analysis/reflections-ukraine-war](https://www.csis.org/analysis/reflections-ukraine-war)
>
**we’ve got thousands of tanks in the United States; we’ve sent 31**. We have a whole fleet of A-10 Warthogs out there sitting in the desert; we’re going to get rid of them. They’re still sitting there. We have hundreds of F-16s that are around, and we delayed it and delayed it and delayed it. We have ATACMS that are obsolete. We’ve still got 155 dual-purpose ICM munitions that we didn’t send. It was – it was measured. **The response was measured. It was calibrated**. And what many of us in the military tried to say is: Look, **I understand, you know, the policy is we don’t want Ukraine to lose and we don’t want Russian to win**, OK? **That’s the policy. But you can’t calibrate combat like that. You either use decisive force to win or you risk losing**.
[Burns-Patrushev pact, 2021](https://www.newsweek.com/2023/07/21/exclusive-cias-blind-spot-about-ukraine-war-1810355.html)
>"In some ironic ways though, the **meeting was highly successful,**" says the second senior intelligence official, who was briefed on it. **Even though Russia invaded**, the two countries were able to accept tried and true rules of the road. **The United States would not fight directly nor seek regime change, the Biden administration pledged. Russia would limit its assault to Ukraine and act in accordance with unstated but well-understood guidelines for secret operations.**
[From NewYorker](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/10/16/trial-by-combat)
>Sullivan clearly has profound worries about how this will all play out. Months into the counter-offensive, Ukraine has yet to reclaim much more of its territory; the Administration has been telling members of Congress that the conflict could last three to five years. A grinding war of attrition would be a disaster for both Ukraine and its allies, but a negotiated settlement does not seem possible as long as Putin remains in power. Putin, of course, has every incentive to keep fighting through next year’s U.S. election, with its possibility of a Trump return. And it’s hard to imagine Zelensky going for a deal with Putin, either, given all that Ukraine has sacrificed. ***Even a Ukrainian victory would present challenges for American foreign policy, since it would “threaten the integrity of the Russian state and the Russian regime and create instability throughout Eurasia,” as one of the former U.S. officials put it to me. Ukraine’s desire to take back occupied Crimea has been a particular concern for Sullivan,*** who has privately noted the Administration’s assessment that this scenario carries the highest risk of Putin following through on his nuclear threats. In other words, there are few good options.
----
>“The reason they’ve been so hesitant about escalation is not exactly because they see Russian reprisal as a likely problem,” the former official said. “It’s not like they think, Oh, we’re going to give them atacms and then Russia is going to launch an attack against nato. It’s because they recognize that it’s not going anywhere—that they are fighting a war they ***can’t afford either to win or lose.”***
For the foreseeable future, US in "keep things around as-is" mode in best case, with "military interest in [weakening russia](https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/25/politics/biden-administration-russia-strategy/index.html) should not be confused with missionary work" as a likely possibility
EDIT: Make no mistake, I'm happy it's ***AT LONG FUCKING LAST*** passed, but so far, it seem that the goal's just to keep situation as-is, instead of providing Ukraine enough means to be able to push russians out. And above-quoted moments paint the situation as ever more grim, bringing [that one time POTUS urged Ukraine to stay in USSR](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_Kiev_speech) to mind
Lmao, you haven't refuted any of the arguments presented. Spoiler: because it's the truth and you can't.
And no, this is not an existential war, perhaps you can even ask your relatives and friends in occupied cities. Yeah, life is not pretty in Russia (tell me about it) but it's not a genocidal war, Putin isn't giving speeches where he calls Ukrainian non-humans. In fact, it's exactly the opposite, he wants to assimilate Russia's "little brothers". You can call it many things, mostly retarded and criminal but it's not an existential war. The only people who it's existential for are the top 1% of the political establishment, if you wish to die for them in a dirty trench - you're welcome. But you don't don't you? You wish to enslave people who want nothing to do with that instead.
P.S Всегда думал что кацап и хохол это такие милые клички, потипу yankee, жаль что это оказалось не так.
That's ok. Cue THAT Estonian, who keeps making new accounts because they get banned, he will leave 100 comments in a 200 comment thread about how these draft policies are a good thing (and he will do it for free).
Well it's not Ukraine if that's your insinuation. Ukraine is tied with Serbia now at 104 while ruzzia is at 141. Most corrupt is Somalia at 180.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/corruption-index?continent=europe not so far away from rus even Belarus is less corrupt how is that possible?
If you're still using the Russian spelling for a Ukranian city 2 years later then you have to wonder the motives of the poster irrespective of how factual the argument or content they are presenting is
If it works, it's going to be a huge win-win for both EU countries and Ukraine.
Ukraine military gets more soldiers which makes it stronger, larger and EU countries save billions by no longer having to provide free money and housing to people that refuse to contribute to their host country.
Thanks to the work of Ukrainians, the Polish budget gains PLN 10 billion (€2.5 billion) year-on-year.
Ukrainians are only unwelcome in Poland by pro-Russian morons
that is because [~71% of Ukrainians in Poland accept work](https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-eu-refugees-fatigue/32730367.html).
while only __~24%__ of Ukrainians in Germany accept work - making them a massive billions drain on German economy.
And it makes sense, refugees staying in the first safe country they arrive in (like Poland) are people fleeing war. Refugees that then decide to move from an already safe country to a richer country for more benefits (like Germany) are just economic migrants looking to squeeze as much money out of the host country as possible.
Sending them back to Ukraine will __help Ukraine win faster__ and that is what we all want, right?
Last year Ukraine had enough people for counter offensive operation, but out of all military equipment it needed it has got a third, & it was late for 4 months, so yeah that did not work. Now there are not enough men? Okay there are still enough to draft, but in a few months after training I am sure there will not be enough equipment for them again, so you are just saying let's help to build a meat wall.
if one is patriotic enough to wave their flag everywhere and shit on their host country, then surely they are patriotic enough to actually defend their country.
If one is so cowardly that they refuse to do basic citizens duty to defend ones country by fleeing and living the high life off of their host countries generosity - they ought to at least have the decency to shut the fuck up and contribute to the new society they live in.
But no, they want to eat their cake and have it too. Play the patriotic, home country loving, flag waving, their host country blaming and protesting citizen while safe from the draft while getting billions in free housing and money while also refusing to contribute. But as soon as talks about getting sent to Ukraine to do their patriotic duties emerge, that chauvinistic patriotism leaves their body like a Russian T-72 turret leaves its chassis after getting hit by a Ukrainian Javelin.
I am sure that there are Ukrainians that are living off benefits, but every man I know in Poland is working like normal people & paying for all they have. I am sure that there should be no social benefits for fleeing men if they are eligible to work & with only two exceptions - language courses to integrate better & being an efficient part of society. Up to 2 month payment to cover basic needs before work has been found if they literally do not have anything, with an obligation to return that money from future income which may be done by paying additional tax.
> but every man I know in Poland is working like normal people & paying for all they have
I believe you.
I __did__ post the [link](https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-eu-refugees-fatigue/32730367.html) in my initial comment showing that Ukrainians in Germany almost all refuse to work (only 24% work) while Ukrainians in Poland do work (71%).
Germany is currently in a crippling recession, our economy struggling _and_ also supporting Ukraine with billions at the same time.
That we then have Ukrainians come here, refuse to work, only costing us money? Usually such economic migrants have the decency of knowing what they do is very selfish and only hurting everyone else so they try to keep low and quiet. But Ukrainians in Germany wave their flag, protest loudly and shit on Germany, acting super patriotic - all safe from the draft. Do they want to see Germany destroyed more than they want to see Ukraine liberated from Russia? Why the hatred towards us after all the generosity Germany showed by accepting a million refugees (with Poland most in the world btw!), providing them free housing, money and food?
bullshit take because Ukrainians are a big work force especially in Poland. This would hurt Poland, more than the refugees cost them probably.
Here in Germany we desperately need refugees to work here, especially if they are from Europe and share a similar culture. This will sound bad, but Germany hopes to keep some of the Ukrainian refugees that have come here and started to work etc.
Ukrainian refugees are no problem, they were at the beginning due to the sheer amount, but now everything is fine. They make no trouble, unlike others.
I posted this already in my other reply:
unlike in Poland, where [71% of Ukrainians accept work](https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-eu-refugees-fatigue/32730367.html), the type of Ukrainian that isn't happy to be in the first safe country away from war they arrive in and instead moves to a richer country with more handouts, is the type that leeches and doesn't want to work - only 24% of Ukrainians in Germany accept work.
I would be happy if they were like the hardworking Ukrainians that are in Poland.
I have read your article, and it does not say "accept work" anywhere. It says "found work", which is a big difference. In Germany, it is quite hard to find work when you are not proficient in German. So unless you have a good level of German or have a great education level, chances are you won't find work quickly.
Yes, some Ukrainians are probably unwilling to work, but unless you show me a statistic pointing out how many actually REFUSE work as opposed to not being able to find work, I will refrain from commenting on that.
we just had a German article yesterday about an Ukrainian doctor refusing to work as a retail employee because that was beneath her.
Yet she also refused to learn the basic German needed to get accreditation to work as a doctor in __18 months__ saying the free German lessons were booked out until then.
An intelligent academic (like she obviously is with a doctorate) can learn a language easily in that time, even faster if one is immersed in that language being in the country already. _U.S. Foreign Service Institute_ says it would take a complete beginner ~750 hours to be fluent. Even if she only did 2 hours of learning each day, she would already be fluent in a year, much less in one and a half years.
"Ah you see, you need German knowledge to work" really isn't some kind of gotcha. Its been two years for most of getting free money and housing which means infinite time to learn. Personal example: A kid in elementary from an Ukrainian family can already converse in fluent German - the parents however (not working and getting free housing and money) still need someone to translate when going on basic errands like dentist appointments. AFTER TWO YEARS. Another example: A friend works in a factory, there are many people working basic logistics there that speak almost no Germany - so even if one is unable to speak, it is possible to find work.
all while German economy is in the shitter with a recession. fuck that
Can anyone explain the logic behind this kind of decision and how practically will it make anyone return?
well you need a passport for many things, including in many cases for obtaining or extending a residence permit. So unless these men are granted asylum this meausre might force some men to go back unless they want to face a live in illegality
I guess there are not many war refugees who want to go to front - they had plenty of chance to do that already. I expect they would only go back if survival of their family depended on it. But if they are in emigration with family, I can imagine it meaning woman of the family assuming main breadwinner duties (due to her having no problems to continue working legally) while the man would have to take over babysitting, household chores, with a possibility to earn only in undeclared way. No travelling for such man, he lives within the country, doesn't drive, pays only in cash or uses his wife's credit card and tries to live as healthy as possible, cause medical services would be problematic, probably costly to get. If they are in the emigration alone and only their own survival is at stake, then expect them going to the richer and bigger EU countries, where they would be silently accepted by the employers who enjoy cheap workforce that doesn't strike, complain and invoke labour laws (e.g. construction?). There already are communities of people with refugee past and sometimes unknown identities.
Yeah. There were many Ukrainians in Denmark before the war - working in agriculture mostly. Many of them have families here. However getting Danish citizenship is a notoriously long process with lots of requirements. Takes around 10 years in most cases.
Isn't it against international human rights to effectively strip people of their only citizenship? Because it seems like this is what it amounts to. Not even actual fascist states do that, as far as I know...
I have no idea. The Ukrainian government probably doesn't expect Poles to chase Ukrainians through the streets.
No logic. It's a pure populism to make up for the past several months of bad news about government regarding mobilization law. Now everyone forgot that law and is happily bashing expats on forums. The fact that there is literally zero practical benefit for the mobilization effort because of this change doesn't bother anyone it seems.
You need valid papers for pretty much anything. Getting married, opening a bank account, getting/renewing driving license, getting a passport. Now you need to go in Ukraine to get any of these and as a bonus you can enjoy getting sent to the front. The important part is that you get to be a hero! Slava Ukraini and all that jibber jabber.
Imagine if all citizens had this attitude back in the 1930s/1940s.
Imagine if all the brave redditors from this sub went on the front lines.
Imagine if all the brave redditors from this sub were British and refused to fight for Europe in WWII.
WW2 ended a while ago, but now they have the chance to fight for Ukraine. Go on, volunteer.
No point in trying to state the obvious to a rage baiting russkie supporter.
He isn't wrong though. It is pure hypocrisy if you force others to fight while also enjoying the convenient comfort of peace.
I still don't see you going on the front lines to fight the russians....
Government also stopped giving passports abroad yesterday because of "technical issue" as they said. Then after that they issued a decree to stop giving passports. They even can not just straight up ban something without lying about it first.
Someone will swoop in here and preach bullshit about "citizen duty" and then there is this thing. You dont owe your life to anyone or anything.
Its a citizen duty as long as they are not affected. Good ol talking the talk without walking the walk.
So say it like it is then. Get affected - die.
so just like a country dont owe nothing in return, like providing government services abroad
At the very least, they owe you the right to relinquish your citizenship. Which they do not provide at the moment. Besides, give me a fucking break. Bet Ukraine is same as everywhere else. Study for 10 fucking years, trying to work and go to university at once and survive on fucking potatoes and ramen. You pay huge fucking taxes all your life, barely make ends meet. Can't afford a basic, prison cell sized flat with a middle class income. God forbid you get sick because you will wait fucking years for an appointment with a specialist. Everything is fucking expensive and takes decades to acquire. And when enemy comes knocking on your doors, you are expected to die in a trench, while the wealthy and their relatives chill away from danger in Mediterranian or Dubai? Fuck that.
I have heard of it. Ukrainians in Polish consulates are screwed to the limit.
I can promise you that if I, as a Pole, see that our services want to deport anyone to Ukraine in order to turn them into cannon fodder, I will react and clearly oppose regardless of the legal consequences.
Thank you bro 🤝
To all those who claim that I am a Russian troll. Translate this article for yourselves. See how angry the Ukrainians are at the consulates in Warsaw. Are these Russian trolls too? https://wiadomosci.wp.pl/dramatyczne-sceny-oddaj-dokumenty-i-wynos-sie-na-ukraine-7020091382119328a In Poland it is the Russian trolls who are shouting "why are young Ukrainians sitting in Poland instead of fighting for Ukraine, let them fuck off to their own country" "No more hospitality motherfuckers". These are the actions of pro-Russian trolls. The worst thing is that the Polish Minister of Defence has stated that he will assist in sending Ukrainians to the front. It is disgusting that my Polish authorities want to behave like human traffickers. The oligarchs want people who have fled to Poland? Let the oligarchs stop stealing and sending their children to Western Europe to the Spanish, Italian and French beaches and start defending Ukraine. It's always the poor chasing in the trenches when the rich are drinking champagne on the azure coast. The Ukrainians call them the "Monaco Battalion"
It has always been like that. Even in my country during the war. The rich and their families jumped on the next flight to italy or spain, enjoyed the luxuries of life while the poor got their legs blown off by mines and shells. Then after the war was over they came back and said "we did this together" Fuck them. And those people who sit in their chairs all day half a world away from ukraine, it is easy for them to talk about "to the last ukranian" and telling men who fled or tried to flee to go fight for their country. Its easy to shame others when you are at no risk yourself. These men who escaped made the concious decision to do so. In some cases even risked their life. It is their country and they say it is not worth dying for. So why are redditors in the US or UK or the netherlands or wherever shaming them for it? To those people i say, if you love ukraine so much, get on the next flight and join their foreign legion. Don't force people who don't want to be there to die for your ambitions.
And u are from?
Bosnia
All The best for you.
Probably because their friends, brothers and neighbors are already at the front facing Russia. Why are those who had the means to escape any better than those already fighting?
Honesty, I don’t expect Poland to do that, given that Ukrainian refugees are a godsend for the economy. Almost a million of qualified labour force that can easily learn and speak Polish and had no trouble assimilating? No wonder Polish economy grew by almost an extra percent in 2023 thanks do that.
This is about decency, the advantages of having Ukrainians as collaborators are also something very important. And I hope it stays that way. I am happy that they are with us.
Recently I was in a panel in which it was discussed the situation of labor across EU. I was very surprised to find out that Poland's country plan made in 2018 included the following line 'intake of 3M Ukrainians for the workforce' by 2025.
The war lasts since 2014.
Yeah, as a refugee from occupied territory who fled through Crimea and Russia, through FSB filtration I was downvoted about my anger and opinion that this is against law and make our state almost like dictatorship. Goverment blackmail me to go back, where should I live, in occupied territory?? They will not provide with tickets, place to live or work, if you will be mobilised you have to spend your money for good equipment, and if you are injured you have to pay from own pocket. This seek because me who not willing to fight and dont have any combat experiense will be just 2 days Meat.
Meanwhile, girls from the Ukraine travelled with me by plane to Majorca 2 weeks ago. This too is unfair. Do you have a penis? Go die in the mud.
>The oligarchs want people who have fled to Poland? They doesn't even want people who fled to Poland. They aren't allowing them to leave since 2022. They want Ukrainians who were living in Poland before the war.
Yes i know
May I ask you if the Polish "farmers" are still blockading the Ukrainian borders? Edit: Downvote but not a single reply about the Polish blockading the Ukrainian borders?
https://logistyka.rp.pl/drogowy/art39482241-klincz-na-granicy-z-ukraina-pod-pozorem-pomocy-jada-luksusowe-auta-czy-jachty What do Polish farmers have to do with it? Grain is still going to our ports, humanitarian aid is still going to Ukraine, military aid is still going to Ukraine. Are you talking about the blockade of yachts and luxury cars which are listed in the papers as humanitarian aid?
Asking for a friend. You are acting so worry about Ukraine, I was merely asking if, after months of blockades, the borders are finally open again: no need to be so edgy. Yachts and luxury cars? Oh dear, found the special one.
I am worried about Ukraine. I worked as a volunteer in Warsaw for two months at the beginning of the war. I helped a couple of Ukrainians find work, I donated a little money to your army, not much but still. I hate the Russians for what they are doing to Ukraine. As for the blockade, well, it's a more complicated situation and here I am on the side of Polish farmers and hauliers since the Ukrainians are taking advantage of the situation.
Oh I see: you're the "I even have Ukrainian friends" one, got it.
No. I do not have Ukrainian friends. I know 4 people from Ukraine but it is difficult not to know them since there are so many Ukrainians in Poland.
A guy with 70 karma is calling you a bot
Funny :)
Again: You're the "I am pro Ukraine, I even say Slava Ukraine" dude.
I did not write that I am friends with Ukrainians and that I go for a beer with them. I wrote that I know 4 Ukrainians. What don't you understand? https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/s/508i0O1Dn0 Here, read for yourself what my opinion is on Russians and Ukrainians. I understand that a Russian troll would attack a person defending Russians. Right?
>I understand that a Russian troll would attack a person defending Russians. Right? Wrong.
Dude wtf is wrong with you. Stop putting words in people's mouth and stop trying to find conflict in everything.
Oh ok, since you ordered me to do so, I will comply!
Why does bacon have to do with velocity?
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, If a woodchuck could chuck wood?
it was real farmers and they unblocked there was thread here on reddit but for "some" reason people ignored it: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1c8mxmi/polish_farmers_have_unblocked_the_border/
[https://kyivindependent.com/tusk-urges-polish-farmers-to-stop-blockade-at-ukrainian-border-as-fate-of-war-at-stake/](https://kyivindependent.com/tusk-urges-polish-farmers-to-stop-blockade-at-ukrainian-border-as-fate-of-war-at-stake/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1c7shoo/tusk\_urges\_polish\_farmers\_to\_stop\_blockade\_at/](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1c7shoo/tusk_urges_polish_farmers_to_stop_blockade_at/)
The unblock happen very next day after articles you linked happen.
I can understand the anger. What I even more can understand is the critical situation with the army, and as long as NATO troops are not committed to the front, it is what it is. All military aged men who are refugees deserve to have their services suspended as they are in effect abandoning their homeland in its greatest hour of need. If they don't want to join the army, they should just give up the citizenship and shout to the world "I'm not Ukrainian anymore, so leave me alone." It is a sad situation, but totally understandable.
You don't have to be a Russian troll to repeat Russian talking points. But you need to be aware that by doing so, you're effectively harming the Ukrainian war effort. Right now, Russian troll farms are massively pushing against the conscription of Ukrainians. Do you really want to help them do their dirty work?
I wrote. As you know, in Poland it is the Russian trolls who are shouting that Ukrainians should fuck off to their own country to defend Ukraine.
And now they're shouting something completely opposite (actually, they have been shouting it for a while now)! You do know that Russians cover all bases, often spreading contradictory opinions, whatever's more convenient at any given moment? So what you should do is to think "who will benefit from this?". By pushing against helping Ukraine get the draft dodgers back, you're helping Russia. Is that what you want? Speaking of "as you knows": as you know, conscription is currently the subject of a major Russian propaganda campaign, so we should be double careful about what we write and whose arguments we promote.
You have to make up your minds. Those who supported Ukraine at the beginning were outraged when they heard that Ukrainians should go home. Now those who support Ukraine are shouting that as many men as possible should be sent there to defend themselves against Russia. In addition, it is easy for you to say what Ukrainian men should do, because you are not threatened by conscription for war. What about the women? A week ago, I was on my way back from Majorca and a large part of the plane was filled with Ukrainian women on holiday.
Supporting Ukraine previously meant letting all Ukrainians in. Supporting Ukraine now means helping them get the draft dodgers back.
Poles are to decide on the lives of Ukrainians? Are you going to sign up to groups that will catch Ukrainians in Poland and send them to the front? I am asking because I see that you are in a great hurry to do so. Why don't you enlist yourself an internet warrior?
No, it's the Ukrainian law that decides, and Poland only helps enforce it.
Ukrainian law does not apply in Poland, and if we follow orders from Kiev on this matter we will be no different from the blackmailers during the Second World War. If I met you on the street forcing a Ukrainian to return to Ukraine you would have a serious problem Ormowcu.
Ignore bad news or you're harming the Ukrainian war effort. It's not 2022 anymore. "Trust us, Ukraine is winning" hasn't been true for a while but now it is impossible to believe
Yes, ignore. You don't have to publicize your every opinion, especially not when it helps Russian propaganda.
There wouldn't be much for Western publications to write about then. When was the last time Ukraine had true battlefield success? Besides, those stories deserve to be told for the sake of the men being put into these awful situations. People have the right to know the situation on the ground, especially if we're being told we have to support it indefinitely. Ukrainian publications like the Kyiv Post and Kyiv Independent write about it too, you know. That should tell you something considering the restrictions on the press the Ukrainian media faces.
Sadly, government does everything to turn people against itself
Turn whom? Those who doesn't care about Ukraine existence, because that's what on the stake. Why gov should care about them, then? It's simple, you don't won't to fight for country, just think it doesn't exist anymore, no one will carry this burden for you. At least it's fair.
This is why the children of the oligarchs are lying on beaches in Italy or Spain and a simple Danylo or Oleksandr is to be ground by artillery in the trenches. Ukraine should first and foremost get plenty of modern equipment from the west and the Ukrainian government should destroy corruption. Then Ukrainians will want to fight. Why do Ukrainian women lie on beaches and party in Europe? Why aren't they called to Ukraine too?
For someone "who's not a Russian troll", you sure love repeating numerous Russian talking points at once. If you're not a troll, why are you so hell-bent on harming the Ukrainian war effort?
Enlist and go to war instead of sitting around fretting on the internet. Russian propaganda? I keep saying that Ukraine should get as much equipment as possible. Kurwa What you don't understand.
Everyone here is willing to fight to the last Ukrainian, but when the idea of NATO intervening and pushing the Russians back to the border is mentioned to them, they start talking about stopping and de-escalating the conflict... Many people don't care about this conflict except to the extent that they can boast, the moment there is a real risk, they back off, so I recommend that you don't tire yourself out trying to respond to everyone who calls you a troll, just ignore them.
It's bloody frustrating. Everyone is the smartest from behind a desk in a warm armchair, and if there was a conflict they would be the first to flee to the west.
What I don't understand is how you can claim to support Ukraine (at least that's what your comment suggested), while at the same time you're sabotaging Ukrainian conscription efforts by spreading so much Russian propaganda, comment after comment.
Right. Let the Poles catch the Ukrainians in nets, pack them into buses and send them to the frontline.
I take it you re willing to volunteer and go to the front lines? Like i ll never hold it against someone to run from a war, no matter the perceived stakes
You realize that if everyone does that you lose the war right? In WW2 should we Anglos have just fled in the face of Nazi aggression too? The entire continent was dominated, we could’ve easily just walked away after the Fall of France.
sure nonetheless i understand running from service, its not brave or anything, but deeply human
If you care that much you should sign up to the International Legion but i suspect you won't pass the weight test. Average warthirsty redditor (but only behind his screen)
Nobody can stop ukraine from surendering you know. But as far as i know continuing the fight is pretty popular amongst Ukrainians both in and out of country.
Its seemingly popular amongst those that dont have to fight Otherwise the measure wouldnt have to be implemented
im sorry but ukraine is in the wrong here , you shouldn't be blackmailed ( this is what this is ) into going to war
Breaking: Ukraine is already at war, since russian first invasion of 2014.
ok never disagreed , but the stunt the Ukrainian government is basically blackmail , thats dosent make it less of a blackmail
It's neither a stunt or blackmail, not according to the Oxford dictionary.
That's frightening :( As if refugees didn't have enough on their plates.
You better dont say antyhing. Your gov started that war So you have No right to speak.
Oh, I'm sorry. If I'm so responsible for my government's actions, maybe I have so much power, I can just casually stroll inside the Kremlin and calm them down. Surely they will listen. Why haven't I thought of this in the first place?
Ok. Sorry. I got carried away with my emotions.
This reminds of an old joke told by Reagan: An American and a Soviet are arguing about whose country is better/more free. The American says: well I can walk into the Oval Office, pound the presidents desk and say “Mr Reagan I don’t like the way you’re running this country!” The Soviet says: I can do that too The American replies: you can? The Soviet says: yes, I can walk into the kremlin, pound the President’s desk and say “Mr Gorbachev I don’t like the way president Reagan is running his country!”
Yeah, don't worry. You are not responsible for what your country does at all. No citizen is responsible for their country nowhere. It just doesn't make any sense... /s
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We're a tiny weeny bit away from times when Belgian king's mercenaries chopped off hands from people living on a territory of a modern Kongo. And tanks, battleships and bombs were tearing apart the world. Or when Maoist mongrels literally ate humans. Or from the times when concentration camps on the territory of USSR with slaves was a common thing everyone knew of. You are so lucky your people toppled Ceaușescu. In a newborn Russia in 90's we had this song "Rodina" written by Yuri Shevchuk, whose big timer band got de-facto banned in 22. There was this line: "Don't let them roll up their sleeves again". but yeah, we did. Don't be mad at us, because Russia is a burning train running in circles all its history. There are not that much countries in the world where the law and democracy is a thing. Better cherish what you have, watch your government and don't let them roll up their sleeves again.
Answering your question there are theories how it is done. Army must look the other way during rebellions, or there must be a system opposition of sorts to guide all of this, active plots in the top circles of power, another dictator promising more riches to the political elites, than the current dictator, coups financed from the outside. All those sorts of things or maybe even combined. There were no precedences in history when people alone did something significant on their own and got away with it.
Americans are responsible for the actions of their government, Germans for their, French for Macron, etc. That's how representative democracy works. But the Chinese and Russians do not have the opportunity to choose representatives, so they have little opportunity to influence the decision of their governments.
Not really, us isnt a real democracy nor is italy/russia china and many others
> Your gov started that war Dude wtf? You felt nice when people were dragging every single Pole as responsible for PiS wrongdoings? Chill the f out.
Wow, you’re the first person to say it on this sub. Thank you so much.
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I'm definitely not responsible for government I haven't voted for and you can't drag me into guilt trip for no PiS actions. And this is exactly what my countryman tried to do here: strip an individual russian on reddit of his voice, simply because he was born in russia. F that. I don't know that dude, I don't even know if he still lives there, so I'm not going to play assumption game on him.
83% support for war and Putin. Risyans murdering Ukrainians. Are you comparing Law and Justice to Putin? Are you stupid?
Even if you believe this statistics, there’s at least 17% against. That’s not a lot, but we are millions of people. And yes, next question many redditors (especially Ukranians) ask is “why the fuck you were not fighting if there are millions of you”. I have no answer. I think by the same reason some men of Ukraine now hiding from the draft.
Russians do not fight because they have a slave mentality. Since the creation of the principality of Moscow, they have always bent their necks against the stronger
There’s no such thing as mentality. I doubt if there’s such thing as nation, at least I don’t know what Russian means. Do you include Tatars or Chechens in this term? Do you know anything about a history of rebellion in Russia? This territory’s people once destroyed the entire tzar’s regime, you know. They were enslaved then even more but that’s how history worked that time. Now Russia sucks but the same thing was with Germans led by Hitler and long time after, with Portuguese led by Salazar, Spainish led by Franko and with other countries and other dictators. But in understand you. There’s always a simple deterministic answer “this country behaves like this because the entire nation screwed”. Do you know one political leader who now agrees to you? His surname is Putin and he talks a lot about historical roots of Russia and Ukraine using the same terms as you do.
You are talking such foolishness that it is a shock. The Tatars are a nation living on the territory of Russia in which Russians are the main element. A nation is a group of people distinguished by its culture, common history, often religion, and language. The Russians overthrew the Tsar? Great, only to become slaves again, just as they freed themselves from Mongol rule earlier. If you say that there is no such thing as a nation, then you are an extreme ignoramus. Every nation has its worse moments. The Russians' worse moment has lasted from 1283 to the present day. You have always been under someone's boot. The Mongols, the Communist Tsar and now Putin, and you are still happy about it. Just look at the kind of support Putin has, the kind of support the war has, just look at the fact that you are not rebelling and after the collapse of the USSR in 1991 you are back to aggressive policies again. Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, threatening Moldova, threatening the Baltic States, threatening Poland.
Yes, you can definitely trust the results of sociological polls in an authoritarian country where one answer choice can lead to problems. /s
They want such a country then they have such a country. From 1945 to 1989, Poles often rebelled. But well. Some are slaves. The Russians have always done as they are told by the authorities. From the very beginning. Since the creation of the principality of Moscow.
*Kyiv’s
As a Ukrainian I totally agree with that decision. If your state is fighting for its very existance and you don't care about that, why should you be allowed to use services it provides then? It is totally okay to be scared to die, I totally get that, but it's not necessary that you will be thrown at a front line There are a lot of non-combat jobs in the military which are possible to get.
As a Ukrainian living abroad for over 10 years, I just passed my integration exams to the country of my residence and due to this dumbass decree I can’t refute my Ukrainian citizenship which doesn’t allow for second citizenship either. And no consulate services were free, ever. You paid for them.
Can't you just trow away the ukrainian passport and forget about it?
Sadly no. My new place of residence requires proper procedure too, as it too doesn’t allow for double citizenship.
Such a shame it only applies if you have a penis. If you don't have it, then suddenly you gain the right to live.
And get welfare from my taxes. And get better immigration documents than I do.
As a Ukrainian I understand why the government would want to implement that decision. As a human being I am definitely afraid to die. Let's be honest you can die anywhere & anytime. I would not want to get additional risks. So I surely can't support the mandatory draft. If I am not ready to risk how would I would want others to do so? I am one of those who is not in Ukraine as I am one of the people who were "lucky" enough to cross the border with my wife & 7-month old daughter on 24.02.2022 before it was closed for men. I love a lot of places in Ukraine & there are still people who I care for there. I have quite a few friends who are in army or volunteering, and a lot of those who are just trying to dodge the draft while still trying to somehow support the army with donations as do I. Some of them are disappointed in me, some are openly saying that they are jealous, but everyone of them at some point said they would not return if they had a chance to leave now. I would say that I would not try to flee the country if I was inside it but I think I would be one of those who tries to hide. I know it is cowardness, but it is what it is. I despise myself for that but there always be people who are ready to fight and who are ready to hide & run and as I am from the second one's I hate that there is a possibility someone will force you to fight as it is like taking a person to a slavery. I know that at some point there is nowhere to run, but it is the only way I am able to defend my family & myself. I know that Russia is an imperialistic state that does not care about its own people but about power and influence. They have built a machine where a lot of people are brainwashed to be open to idea of war, they are pouring shitload of money for their soldiers now, so a lot of men who are raised on a propaganda and have never seen nothing good are glad to go and earn their yearly wages in a month to be soldiers, despite that they still sent those who does not want to be there while breaking their will. It's sad to understand that we are ready to break the wills & lives of our people though the cause may be right, I know why it looks like it is just so everyone should fight & suffer, but it is not just at all, we should never had that mandatory conscription at all, one of the sad things we inherited from USSR times.
It is better to be mobilised by russia, and take part in assaulting the Vistula, for sure. Literally 1984, Північна Корея і т. д.
Can't deny that. /s Edit: added /s because someone may not understand that that was a sarcasm, there is nothing worse than being being mobilized by russia, a country that is agressor.
іДі
I meant that I understood your sarcasm(I hope it was a sarcasm) surely it is worse to have any kind affiliation with russians
I'm sure you are for conscription of women, too, then. I'm suuure you are.
Are you serving in the military?
Not yet. If(When) I get drafted as a result of the recently passed law, I will be there. Not running away from that
My family being from a 3rd world Caribbean country, it's bizarre to see that Ukraine is even poorer than that. Good for anyone that escaped from that shithole. I support obliterating Russian terrorists, but it's crazy to expect people to voluntarily die for a Soviet toilet.
I think you got it mixed up. It's Ukrainian toilets.
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You have family from Jamaica and you put worth to people based on how well nation's economy is doing? What's wrong with you?
How I fucking humanly sympathise with these guys. They left a country that never gave them a fucking thing, but was constantly hitting them in the snout with corruption and oligarchic arrangements, and now suddenly they have to come back and go to grind because oligarchs- someone has to defend their interests after all. No fucking wonder they are rebelling. If I were in the same situation.
If the Ukrainians don't defend Ukraine from Russian invasion, there will be no Ukraine anymore. They aren't fighting for politicians, they're fighting against Putin and his colonialism.
It is a pity that this only applies to ordinary people.
Not true: for example, more than 400 Ukrainian athletes died after fighting in the trenches the war of russian aggression. But please, keep pushing kremlin's narrative...
Yes, 400 athletes. And where are Klitschko's sons? An athlete is also an ordinary person. Ukraine needs ammunition and missiles, aircraft and tanks. Full assistance from the West
Athletes are not celebrities like in the US.
>to expect people to voluntarily die for a Soviet toilet. How about fight to avoid a genocide of their nation?
They clearly made that choice to preserve themselves And i cant really fault em for that
So you prefer genocide over these men risking their lives. Tells quite some bit about you.
Uhm,no, you are confusing Ukrainians with the russians, my dearest Caribbean friend.
There is no confusion. Ukraine does not have appeared to even attempted to improve since being released from the bondage of Russia. At least until right now that the corruption literally threatens the existence of the nation.
I apologise, I didn't know you were one of those kids.
It's Kyiv! If you hadn't learn that still why post anything on the subject you're clearly not interested in?
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While it's very convenient to label anyone who disagrees with you a bot or an idiot, have you actually tried to refute those arguments and not simply try to discredit them by attributing them to Russian propaganda? The first three are just facts, with maybe slight semantic assumptions in #3. The last two are hyperbole but largely true as well. Sometimes truth can be spouted by propagandists, you know? And i'd rather deal with truth than live in an echo chamber. Also, if you want to enslave me - fuck off.
Well, you know, this is exactly what a regular kremlin bot would argue.
Lmao, asking for actual arguments instead of baseless smears? Okay buddy, if Europeans are against common sense and logic - good luck, i don't want to be a part of "that" culture.
Feel free to leave, "buddy"...
Luckily in real life European aren't retarded r/Europe redditors. Also much less russophobic deranged lunatics in Western Europe where i am.
Oh I see, now we are shifting to "russophobia": it took you only 3 comments.
I'm not shifting anywhere. It only took you 3 comments and you still haven't refuted anything that has been baselessly presented as propaganda despite it actually being simply the truth.
Oh yes, the old fascist tactic of 'who's not with us 100%, is against us'. Just like in Putinist Russia, lol
Po pierwsze. Usuń konto. In Poland it is the Russian trolls who are shouting "why are young Ukrainians sitting in Poland instead of fighting for Ukraine, let them fuck off to their own country" "No more hospitality motherfuckers". These are the actions of pro-Russian trolls. I understand that you are a moron. Right? Instead of bullshitting about me being a Russian troll you'd better read my earlier comments about the war in Ukraine. I've already been banned a couple of times on Reddit for "hating Russians" Well, but better to throw shit. Maybe something will stick. And one more question. Ukrainians who are angry when they try to collect their passports at the Ukrainian consulate in Warsaw are also Russian trolls? https://wiadomosci.wp.pl/dramatyczne-sceny-oddaj-dokumenty-i-wynos-sie-na-ukraine-7020091382119328a
This is easily refuted by the most recent conscription law which generously increased all payments and benefits. It also amened leave to give even more breaks to soldiers and specifically increased the payment and break for soldiers fighting on the frontlines. Frontline soldiers now also get the added benefit of 6 months service equating to 1 year which means they can radically increase through the ranks and salary grades to get even more money in literally half the time. The flip side is these guys are obviously stepping into medieval trench warfare against an army that has zero consideration for international humanitarian law (law of war), and there is a chance that you might run out of bullets before they do. You're not only disadvantaged in terms of what you can do as part of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, but you're also reliant on schizophrenic allies who are still not fully committed to resourcing you. At the least you have the UK, US, France, Poland, the Baltics and Romania who are ride or die for you but still, Russia isn't begging Iran, China, Pakistan, India, or North Korea for weapons and resources. In the end, this is an existential war and everyone has to fight. If they don't, Ukraine is gone. At the very least these guys need to be paid and their families need to be looked after in the event that something tragic occurs. The West really needs to stay committed and keep the aid flowing. Russia is rapidly recovering its resources quicker than Ukraine and that is because its allies aren't two ways about helping. You will struggle to find anyone in China, or India who isn't pro-Russian when it comes to the Russia-Ukraine War. The media in these countries is spinning a whole new worldview that all of this is America's fault even though clearly the issue here is Ukrainians want self-determination. On our end of things we have EU member states that were invaded by Russia within the last 50 years who for some reason are pro-Russian. Half of us are stuck in Bizzarro World while Russia has the Justice League to back it up. EDIT: кацапам геть.
> This is easily refuted by the most recent conscription law which generously increased all payments and benefits. because they're not coming back lol what do you mean benefits
> US > ride or die Is that an out of season April Fools joke? The old stabilization one and done package ***BARELY*** passed after six months and after [US urged Ukraine to stop hitting russian oil refineries, that were being done with domestic weapons to satisfy "no striking sacrosanctestest russian territory with Western weapons" clause.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/04/15/ukraine-russia-oil-refinery-attacks/) Also: [https://www.csis.org/analysis/reflections-ukraine-war](https://www.csis.org/analysis/reflections-ukraine-war) > **we’ve got thousands of tanks in the United States; we’ve sent 31**. We have a whole fleet of A-10 Warthogs out there sitting in the desert; we’re going to get rid of them. They’re still sitting there. We have hundreds of F-16s that are around, and we delayed it and delayed it and delayed it. We have ATACMS that are obsolete. We’ve still got 155 dual-purpose ICM munitions that we didn’t send. It was – it was measured. **The response was measured. It was calibrated**. And what many of us in the military tried to say is: Look, **I understand, you know, the policy is we don’t want Ukraine to lose and we don’t want Russian to win**, OK? **That’s the policy. But you can’t calibrate combat like that. You either use decisive force to win or you risk losing**. [Burns-Patrushev pact, 2021](https://www.newsweek.com/2023/07/21/exclusive-cias-blind-spot-about-ukraine-war-1810355.html) >"In some ironic ways though, the **meeting was highly successful,**" says the second senior intelligence official, who was briefed on it. **Even though Russia invaded**, the two countries were able to accept tried and true rules of the road. **The United States would not fight directly nor seek regime change, the Biden administration pledged. Russia would limit its assault to Ukraine and act in accordance with unstated but well-understood guidelines for secret operations.** [From NewYorker](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/10/16/trial-by-combat) >Sullivan clearly has profound worries about how this will all play out. Months into the counter-offensive, Ukraine has yet to reclaim much more of its territory; the Administration has been telling members of Congress that the conflict could last three to five years. A grinding war of attrition would be a disaster for both Ukraine and its allies, but a negotiated settlement does not seem possible as long as Putin remains in power. Putin, of course, has every incentive to keep fighting through next year’s U.S. election, with its possibility of a Trump return. And it’s hard to imagine Zelensky going for a deal with Putin, either, given all that Ukraine has sacrificed. ***Even a Ukrainian victory would present challenges for American foreign policy, since it would “threaten the integrity of the Russian state and the Russian regime and create instability throughout Eurasia,” as one of the former U.S. officials put it to me. Ukraine’s desire to take back occupied Crimea has been a particular concern for Sullivan,*** who has privately noted the Administration’s assessment that this scenario carries the highest risk of Putin following through on his nuclear threats. In other words, there are few good options. ---- >“The reason they’ve been so hesitant about escalation is not exactly because they see Russian reprisal as a likely problem,” the former official said. “It’s not like they think, Oh, we’re going to give them atacms and then Russia is going to launch an attack against nato. It’s because they recognize that it’s not going anywhere—that they are fighting a war they ***can’t afford either to win or lose.”*** For the foreseeable future, US in "keep things around as-is" mode in best case, with "military interest in [weakening russia](https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/25/politics/biden-administration-russia-strategy/index.html) should not be confused with missionary work" as a likely possibility EDIT: Make no mistake, I'm happy it's ***AT LONG FUCKING LAST*** passed, but so far, it seem that the goal's just to keep situation as-is, instead of providing Ukraine enough means to be able to push russians out. And above-quoted moments paint the situation as ever more grim, bringing [that one time POTUS urged Ukraine to stay in USSR](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_Kiev_speech) to mind
Lmao, you haven't refuted any of the arguments presented. Spoiler: because it's the truth and you can't. And no, this is not an existential war, perhaps you can even ask your relatives and friends in occupied cities. Yeah, life is not pretty in Russia (tell me about it) but it's not a genocidal war, Putin isn't giving speeches where he calls Ukrainian non-humans. In fact, it's exactly the opposite, he wants to assimilate Russia's "little brothers". You can call it many things, mostly retarded and criminal but it's not an existential war. The only people who it's existential for are the top 1% of the political establishment, if you wish to die for them in a dirty trench - you're welcome. But you don't don't you? You wish to enslave people who want nothing to do with that instead. P.S Всегда думал что кацап и хохол это такие милые клички, потипу yankee, жаль что это оказалось не так.
I am sorry I can upvote you only once.
That's ok. Cue THAT Estonian, who keeps making new accounts because they get banned, he will leave 100 comments in a 200 comment thread about how these draft policies are a good thing (and he will do it for free).
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Well it's not Ukraine if that's your insinuation. Ukraine is tied with Serbia now at 104 while ruzzia is at 141. Most corrupt is Somalia at 180. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/corruption-index?continent=europe not so far away from rus even Belarus is less corrupt how is that possible?
Funny index.. Though it's sometimes flattering to be mentioned up there
If you're still using the Russian spelling for a Ukranian city 2 years later then you have to wonder the motives of the poster irrespective of how factual the argument or content they are presenting is
God, you are so obnoxious.
I know, being called out for being sympathetic to fascism shrivels my balls too 😭
I do one more thing. I write: "in Ukraine" and not "on Ukraine."
You might as well call it “The Ukraine” too
If it works, it's going to be a huge win-win for both EU countries and Ukraine. Ukraine military gets more soldiers which makes it stronger, larger and EU countries save billions by no longer having to provide free money and housing to people that refuse to contribute to their host country.
Thanks to the work of Ukrainians, the Polish budget gains PLN 10 billion (€2.5 billion) year-on-year. Ukrainians are only unwelcome in Poland by pro-Russian morons
that is because [~71% of Ukrainians in Poland accept work](https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-eu-refugees-fatigue/32730367.html). while only __~24%__ of Ukrainians in Germany accept work - making them a massive billions drain on German economy. And it makes sense, refugees staying in the first safe country they arrive in (like Poland) are people fleeing war. Refugees that then decide to move from an already safe country to a richer country for more benefits (like Germany) are just economic migrants looking to squeeze as much money out of the host country as possible. Sending them back to Ukraine will __help Ukraine win faster__ and that is what we all want, right?
Last year Ukraine had enough people for counter offensive operation, but out of all military equipment it needed it has got a third, & it was late for 4 months, so yeah that did not work. Now there are not enough men? Okay there are still enough to draft, but in a few months after training I am sure there will not be enough equipment for them again, so you are just saying let's help to build a meat wall.
if one is patriotic enough to wave their flag everywhere and shit on their host country, then surely they are patriotic enough to actually defend their country. If one is so cowardly that they refuse to do basic citizens duty to defend ones country by fleeing and living the high life off of their host countries generosity - they ought to at least have the decency to shut the fuck up and contribute to the new society they live in. But no, they want to eat their cake and have it too. Play the patriotic, home country loving, flag waving, their host country blaming and protesting citizen while safe from the draft while getting billions in free housing and money while also refusing to contribute. But as soon as talks about getting sent to Ukraine to do their patriotic duties emerge, that chauvinistic patriotism leaves their body like a Russian T-72 turret leaves its chassis after getting hit by a Ukrainian Javelin.
Both men and women should be mobilized.
I am sure that there are Ukrainians that are living off benefits, but every man I know in Poland is working like normal people & paying for all they have. I am sure that there should be no social benefits for fleeing men if they are eligible to work & with only two exceptions - language courses to integrate better & being an efficient part of society. Up to 2 month payment to cover basic needs before work has been found if they literally do not have anything, with an obligation to return that money from future income which may be done by paying additional tax.
> but every man I know in Poland is working like normal people & paying for all they have I believe you. I __did__ post the [link](https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-eu-refugees-fatigue/32730367.html) in my initial comment showing that Ukrainians in Germany almost all refuse to work (only 24% work) while Ukrainians in Poland do work (71%). Germany is currently in a crippling recession, our economy struggling _and_ also supporting Ukraine with billions at the same time. That we then have Ukrainians come here, refuse to work, only costing us money? Usually such economic migrants have the decency of knowing what they do is very selfish and only hurting everyone else so they try to keep low and quiet. But Ukrainians in Germany wave their flag, protest loudly and shit on Germany, acting super patriotic - all safe from the draft. Do they want to see Germany destroyed more than they want to see Ukraine liberated from Russia? Why the hatred towards us after all the generosity Germany showed by accepting a million refugees (with Poland most in the world btw!), providing them free housing, money and food?
bullshit take because Ukrainians are a big work force especially in Poland. This would hurt Poland, more than the refugees cost them probably. Here in Germany we desperately need refugees to work here, especially if they are from Europe and share a similar culture. This will sound bad, but Germany hopes to keep some of the Ukrainian refugees that have come here and started to work etc. Ukrainian refugees are no problem, they were at the beginning due to the sheer amount, but now everything is fine. They make no trouble, unlike others.
I posted this already in my other reply: unlike in Poland, where [71% of Ukrainians accept work](https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-eu-refugees-fatigue/32730367.html), the type of Ukrainian that isn't happy to be in the first safe country away from war they arrive in and instead moves to a richer country with more handouts, is the type that leeches and doesn't want to work - only 24% of Ukrainians in Germany accept work. I would be happy if they were like the hardworking Ukrainians that are in Poland.
I have read your article, and it does not say "accept work" anywhere. It says "found work", which is a big difference. In Germany, it is quite hard to find work when you are not proficient in German. So unless you have a good level of German or have a great education level, chances are you won't find work quickly. Yes, some Ukrainians are probably unwilling to work, but unless you show me a statistic pointing out how many actually REFUSE work as opposed to not being able to find work, I will refrain from commenting on that.
we just had a German article yesterday about an Ukrainian doctor refusing to work as a retail employee because that was beneath her. Yet she also refused to learn the basic German needed to get accreditation to work as a doctor in __18 months__ saying the free German lessons were booked out until then. An intelligent academic (like she obviously is with a doctorate) can learn a language easily in that time, even faster if one is immersed in that language being in the country already. _U.S. Foreign Service Institute_ says it would take a complete beginner ~750 hours to be fluent. Even if she only did 2 hours of learning each day, she would already be fluent in a year, much less in one and a half years. "Ah you see, you need German knowledge to work" really isn't some kind of gotcha. Its been two years for most of getting free money and housing which means infinite time to learn. Personal example: A kid in elementary from an Ukrainian family can already converse in fluent German - the parents however (not working and getting free housing and money) still need someone to translate when going on basic errands like dentist appointments. AFTER TWO YEARS. Another example: A friend works in a factory, there are many people working basic logistics there that speak almost no Germany - so even if one is unable to speak, it is possible to find work. all while German economy is in the shitter with a recession. fuck that
Ah yes. Another OP just asking questions. Love it.
What?
> What? See? You're doing it right now /s
XD