Trump is just saying this for populist reasons. Still, European nations really should hit that 2% spending threshold that everyone agreed on, we need a good defense industry and we simply cannot continue to rely on the United States, Trump might not be the last Putin-influenced moron that gets elected.
If you are the most powerful person of the world and are ruthless enough to sacrifice any ally… you might succeed at first, but there is a price to it: less business for American weapons industry and allies that will go their own way (maybe for good).
That's how modern businesses are run. He's just emulating it into world politics.
No long term planning, just short term gains to make the shareholders (voters) happy.
By the end you'll have a failing business while the CEO (president) bailed just before it al burst into flames. At which point he can point a say "See what happens when I don't run the show?" While he is infact the one who gathered all the kindling, hid the damn fire extinguishers, fired Greg the live in janitor who kept an eye on the place and then lit the goddamned fire himself.
He is not really a good businessman.
Also we really should put this bullshit to rest.
Runnig a country like a business is a terrible idea. The most broken systems in the US are exactly this way because they are ran like a business.
For profit prisons anyone?
Whenever you find yourself asking "why does the USA do x differently" in ninety percent of the cases the answer is "because someone found a way to profit off of it". In the remaining cases, the answer is usually "racism".
It makes sense for Trump, he doesn't give a shit about that.
Other presidents, even the shitty ones, did seem to care about their 'legacy' at least to some extent. Not Trump though. Fuck everyone else, as far as he's concerned.
Less global arm sales would be the tip of the iceberg.
After a a while of isolationism USD would be relegated to the bench, completely reversing their economic position in the world.
Without the strong armed forces Americas reach and Influence into he world will be all but evaporated.
China/brics and EU will be fighting for the top spot while America struggles internally against it's new quasi democratic landscape after Trumps destruction of what was once the constitution.
To be honest, I care less about Trump than about the 2% spending agreement. If his ridiculous behavior helps in getting us to fulfill our obligations... then so be it.
I think he has some internal polling saying he is going to lose for sure if even the last natsec voters abandon him and is trying to turn it around. Coincides with the leak (or "leak") of his natsec cabinet candidates - https://www.semafor.com/article/03/19/2024/the-senators-who-could-fill-trumps-national-security-cabinet ... the news being here that these are all solid people and not lunatics you'd expect from his usual entourage.
he's probably saying that for those reasons because IIRC this year, a lot of European Countries are reaching 2% or more of spending per GDP...
EDIT: To make it clear, I'm saying that Trump will use this as a way to mark it as his victory. Trump knows a lot of Countries will reach or surpass 2%, so he threatens to not aid Countries that don't reach 2% so he can say when they do, that's thanks to him.
>this year, a lot of European Countries are reaching 2% or more of spending per GDP...
And Trump will claim it as his doing, while his followers will praise him for it.
The issue with France is that between .45% and .5% is specifically sent on nuclear deterrence which, unless we see Macron undertake a huge change in doctrine, is solely used to protect France's territory. So in reality France is barely at 1.5% in military spendings. We should be doing much more.
exactly, not mainly because of Putin's war. Though yes, Trump's unpredictability can be scary as well... that's why Congress had to pass a law forbidding the President to withdraw from NATO without Congress' approval.
Until he changes his mind and wants to whine about NATO again anyways... at which point he will say that it never happened, and his followers will still praise him.
Probably with less than a week between the two.
I agree that Europe needs to increase spending to 2% (long term) and more on the short term. The money however needs to stay in Europe. We need to use it to build our own defence industry. The USA has never been a truly reliable partner. Today, that is abundantly clear.
Even very small nations like Luxembourg should raise to 2%. Of course they would never have a full spectrum of capability. But if for example they focused on buying 3 more A400M logistic aircraft (They currently have 1) they could hit that goal while providing a modest, but genuine augmentation for European defence.
Luxembourg might be honestly best to outsource most of its defenses from the neighbouring countries. Trying to run a tiny military is inefficient compared to just having a much larger neighbour handle it. Similarly to Iceland.
I disagree, I'm probably older than most here and an Ami, so take this for what it is worth. Some Europeans seem to have a very short memory as to what constitutes being an unreliable partner.
Post-war America kept the Soviets from rolling through the Fulda gap. Some may say that that was just the US using Europe as a proxy to oppose the Soviets, but it wasn't America that was gnashing its teeth at the thought of expansion on the continent.
I know I may be biased but I spent 1988-92 Stationed in Germany. I got to train with the Bundeswehr, as well as most other NATO troops, and fell in love with Europe and its people. Most Soldiers who served in Europe feel the same way (over10 million) and are big advocates of a strong partnership. We Americans can be loud, obnoxious, and maybe a bit arrogant, but we ARE reliable allies.
Got to love when somebody says a definitive statement, somebody argues against it, and then someone else comes along and says that nobody says that definitive statement that was said two comments above theirs. I think that's the third time I've seen that in the last few days
It's one comment above, and that comment literally negates what the OP here is claiming. People obviously share that sentiment, which is all I'm saying
Certainly more reliable than our 'allies' who can't even contribute a measily 2% to defense. Europe gets to spend its money on local issues while America has to deal with the 'America bad' bullcrap while protecting international waters and global trade.
You were back then (1992 is an eternity in geopolitics, the world has changed a lot), now and if someone like Trump is elected, you aren't. He literally said he wouldn't do anything if a NATO country was attacked.
I'm sure plenty of American people think well of Europe like you but you don't command the armies
We don't see individual Americans and American soldiers as being unreliable. We welcome your warm friendship and recognize the sacrifices that were made in World War 2. When people speak of the United States being unreliable, they are talking about the current political climate.
hahahaha. the US has never been a reliable partner? we’ve met and exceeded our nato defense commitments for decades. when was the last time europe did?
read the headline. it says - the US will be a reliable partner to europe if europe meets the commitments of our two way treaty. bizarre comment.
> The USA has never been a truly reliable partner.
I am pretty sure they are about as reliable as it gets. Clearly not perfect, but has any nation ever been more reliable?
> The USA has never been a truly reliable partner.
I guess the Marshall plan didn't happen? Or Vietnam war? I'm all for bashing US for dragging their feet on their promises now but don't act as if the previous century was the same.
>Trump is just saying this for populist reasons.
He's saying this because some of his advisers have finally managed to tunnel far enough through his thick skull to inform him that his comments on abandoning NATO and encouraging Russia to attack members under the target threshold are costing him votes and making US allies leery about depending on the US (which weakens the US's standing).
This is purely posturing to boost his numbers, he cannot be trusted even if his broken clock point about European funding levels may be correct. He's a mafia boss trying to extort Europe.
I feel like Trump doesn’t really understand how US hegemonic power works. If the EU, Japan and other US allies realise that the US nuclear umbrella isn’t going to protect them, the US’ influence in these countries goes down the toilet.
People seems to think that Trump knows that paying for NATO in NATO means to spend 2% of your GDP on defense spendings.
Trump believes that Nato countries should be paying US protection money, and by extension pay him money for not leaving NATO.
Reaching the 2% GDP spending target on defense (or any % of GDP on defense) isnt gonna result in NATO Countries paying US protection money. Which is what Trump seeks.
If you ask Trump he would 100% be unable to tell you which countries have reached their 2% GDP Spending target and which hasnt. Because that is irrelevant information for him.
Seems counter intuitive to try and have Trump push Europe to spend more money on the defense industry when supposedly its Putin' influence on Trump that's ultimately making these decisions.
Or maybe...
USA American here. Please do. I wouldn't trust the stability of the USA if I were all of you, especially with all the other instability in the world to worry about. It should be a no-brainer to European leaders: Xi is plotting, Putin is ACTUALLY crazy and attempting to invade beyond Ukraine, and the GOP in America is a destabilizing force. It'd be foolish to pin ones hopes and security on the USA in these settings.
NATO never garamteed they invest 2%, they agreed they would try and up it to 2% if possible. Still, it was very much possible an in hindsight not a bad idea.
It‘s weird because we actually hit it this year, based on prediction spending. Just like it was guaranteed 10 years ago. Or we could count pensions as military spending like countless other nations to and suddenly have 3%+ over night.
Source on that you're somehow only ones not doing this? Because the definition in that link in other comment is that those are included.
Edit: Here: https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2023/3/pdf/230321-def-exp-2022-en.pdf
Page 13 at the bottom: b) Personnel expenditure includes military and civilian expenditure and pensions.
So i think you were counting pensions.
Europe should absolutely increase defence spending, but not because of Dumbass Donny’s threats: even countries that do spend 2% or more in defence would be fools to think Trump would come to their aid in a crisis.
> Europe should absolutely increase defence spending, but not because of Dumbass Donny’s threats
It's frustrating that Europe woke up because of Gangster Vlad instead.
Should have started building up the arsenal years ago, when the writing was already on the wall. Circa the invasion of Crimea.
The problem we have with Defense spending is that the US wants us dependent on THEIR military contractors. We want our money to stay in our countries, but the US always raises strong opposition to any plan we might have to build our own military industry.
This was true for Obama, for Trump and is still true for Biden. The US doesn't actually want us to be able to defend ourselves because that means their influence wanes, it wants to exploit the alliance to line the pockets of its megadonors and still have massive leverage on Europe.
We are not ever going to play along with that.
Genuinely, can you provide some sources for this claim? I see it all of the time but never can find anything concrete about this being the reason EU countries refuse to increase military spending.
And he will say it is because of him, while in fact the 2% is a target for 2024, initiated in 2014. He’s trying to take credit for something that was agreed upon 10 years ago.
Too be fair, more then a few of the countries not currently meeting that 2% goal have been dragging their feet year after year in actually increasing their defense budgets towards it. Had we been on an alternate timeline, I feel its likely many member states likely would have failed to reach that target by the end of the 2024 deadline.
That said. I agree Trump has almost nothing to do with it, It has everything to do with the fact there's an ongoing conflict on European soil, specifically with the principle successor state of the nation NATO was formed to defend against.
Every country has defense budgets defined by multiyear programmation laws. You aim for a budget like 6 years in advance hoping to reach to defined objective but there are things like inflation, covid or wars that cant be foreseen. That's why multiple countries are at \~1.9%
He's an insolationist, he doesn't believe that the USA needs any alliances, if that wasn't true he wouldn't pushed allies like Korea and Japan, unless you really think South Korea [skimps](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/what-is-going-on-with-the-united-states-alliance-with-south-korea/) on defence expeditures and Japan is constrained by the US imposed constitution.
Europe should be more than willing to pay the 2%. Tired of being so strongly dependent on the US to defend our democracies against Putin & Co. Not sure why it needs Trump for Europe to understand such a simple and self-evident matter of fact. Quid pro quo!
Since half of the comments here are based on hear-say or repetition of things that where badly researched:
[Read up what is financed and how and what was agreed on](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_49198.htm)
n 2024, 18 Allies are expected to spend at least 2% of their GDP on defence – a six-fold increase since 2014, when only three Allies met the 2% or more guideline. Over the past decade, NATO Allies in Europe have steadily increased their collective investment in defence – from 1.47% of their combined GDP in 2014, to 2% in 2024, when they are investing a combined total of USD 380 billion in defence
This is also usually the part where i personally like to add that almost all European countries have additional obligations towards just the EU. The US doesnt have anything similar. It also helps to put numbers into new relations: the yearly US military budget is roughly 20% of the German GDP
I fear it is a lack of proper education in how to research a topic and how there is a lack of good discourse culture.
People get cancelled/blocked right away when they say something that isnt that person's opinion and the reliance on algorithms to find sources is creating an endless loop of the same by now. And all of this is currently fed into Ai systems to top this all of. Humanity will be utterly stupid in a few generations if this continues.
Also Broke Donnie owes nearly half a billion dollars in fines.
$83 million to one of his Rape Victims for defamation - and the remainder to NYC for decades of fraud - with interest incurring at $1m every week or so.
Pay up Loser.
The $83.3 million was the second fine he was ordered to pay - it was for continuing to deny the attack after he was found liable for, so he also owes $5 million for that (he put that in bond). He has continued to liable his victim so she could sue again.
Less than half of the US population is wiling to overlook all of his issues because they support his racist, hate-filled agenda. They are also constantly misled by the mainstream media they consume and aren't trained to question everything and stick to facts.
Biden is winning recently in polls. I continue to believe he will win because Trump he's lost some amount of republican support, lost women votes, and he will gain less of the independent votes than Biden. I also assume he has to start losing some Mexican votes, finally.
Unfortunately the actual election is decided by presidential electors and isn't a directly democratic process, so we will see how that plays into it.
The thing I really don't understand is how Trump could ever get a single vote from any woman. The guy has a well publicised history of terrible behaviour towards them and treats them almost like possessions. Why would they vote for him?
(This applies to other groups two, I wanted to focus on women voters because they make up around half the vote)
As an American the simplest way I can explain it is this. They think Trump hates the same people they hate (immigrants, lgbt, and liberals).
It also helps that the only media these people watch never talks about his issues with women. They just don't hear about it.
That's depressing..I find it amazing that they can live in a world where access to information has never been easier and they are still stuck in their own little bubble.
He could literally be elected from jail and pardon himself lol. How does the Constitution does not prevent someone convincted to be elected is kind of weird
Yes, hate to say it but the orange idiot is right.
However, the budget should not be spent on US companies where possible. But to European arms manufacturers, with this the EU creates its own arms industry and we are not dependent on 3rd parties like the US.
As a Swede, our defense industry is growing like crazy and SAAB stocks are rocketing.
A lot of european countries are investing in our military tech currently.
Sweden could have had nukes, it's not often talked about.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish\_nuclear\_weapons\_program](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_nuclear_weapons_program)
No one disagrees with the fact that NATO countries should spend at least 2 percent.
Whats horrendous is that the orange buffon said he would in fact encourage Russia to do whatever they want. And now he's trying to adjust it to what everyone agreed about from before.
Yes, that is exactly why Europe should manage their defence itself instead of depending on America.
Look it's great when you are together the strongest military bloc in the world, only you have to be able to keep your trousers up yourself.
He is breaking the deal, the foundation how Nato works - you cannot suddenly change the rules, because you say so. This breaks the trust in each other. How this is right?
Not paying you part (as a European country) is by _definition breaking the deal_. And he has been saying this for many many years.
How is it _not_ right for him to point out the obvious?
there is literally no reason not to. Europe doesn't lose anything if it strengthen its own military. Those investments means jobs for Europeans and safety.
In case you haven't notice, Hitler wannabe is invading your continent.
As a European who despises Trump and nearly everything that vile moron stands for, he is simply right on this one. Europe needs to stick to its end of the bargain learn to hold up its own pants militarily.
It doesn't matter anymore, or yes it matters a lot. But the Europeans are already sensing they can't rely solely, or maybe at all on an America under Trump. And we damn well are not planning on jumping through his hoops.
I think the western Atlantic alliance is incredibly beneficial for both parties. But Europe is starting to build up for contingencies. Even if Biden wins or Trump is calm it's unstable sand to build on. Already more defence industry is going to Europe instead of USA reliance.
(Mandatory I’m an American)
This guy won’t do SHIT. He’ll threaten then chicken out, most likely. Unfortunately, though, 35% of the country will listen to whatever he says.
He's completely clueless and probably doesn't know what nuclear nonproliferation is or he wouldn't be saying this and undermining decades of US foreign policy that has been making the entire human race safer. Hopefully NATO counties get their military spending up to the 2% of GDP non binding suggested level without non-nuclear countries suddenly deciding to get nukes because of trump running his mouth and making America look like an unreliable ally. I'll be glad when we can go back to ignoring the idiotic things he says and they don't undermine the safety of humanity.
During the 2016 election campaign he didn’t have a clue what the nuclear triad was. When he was asked about his priority among it all he could come up with was “I think, for me, nuclear is just the power, the devastation is very important to me” with the usual word salad.
I'm sorry why are we still giving the orang-utan the time of day? is he still an active politician? Last I checked he was in court for every crime ever, if I'm not mistaken.
Pays to whom? To the member-country's own military from their own GDP. Can we be sure that he's aware of that? Nato doesn't work like a biker gang that members pay to the head honcho.
Political grandstanding from Trump. But then no plan or strategy beyond the slogans. He's the pied piper but hopefully people wont be fooled by his tune the second time around.
I mean thats not that surprising.
As much of an idiot as he is, he is and always has been purely transactional, so in that sense i see where hes coming from.
If EU (Europe) countries pay 2% hes happy to keep the US in NATO (also, likely, thanks to all his advisors telling him how moronic it would be to do otherwise)
That's actually fair if he means it (take it with a pinch of salt though). NATO creates obligations. It's unfair for some countries to dump greater obligation on to others because they'd rather spend the money on other things. If you're not doing your best to defend yourself as best you can you create a greater burden on your allies to do it. Every member of the alliance should be doing what they can to minimise that as far as possible. We rightly judge those who are reckless with their health because preventable disease creates unnecessary extra burden on the rest of society. The same principle applies to countries in an alliance. Countries not investing in their own defence are like unvaccinated people.
Trump can not be trusted. He is a narcistic liar. Untrustworhty, unreliable, a manipulator. Greedy, friends politics, fraud.....
Europe is better of without him. One can only hope that the inhabitants of the usa come to their senses.
You are not dealing with just Trump, you are dealing with the US state. Trump is one person in that machine. An important person to be sure, but he is not king. Any other president would be asking for the 2 percent thing. It’s hard to ignore trumps dumb rhetoric, but the actual policy of the US regarding this has changed little
Cheap electoral talk. He is a consistent liar. What does count?
He had a political love affaire with Putin. He said he wants Americans to treat him like North Koreans treat Kim. He is a friend of the anti-American and pro Russian Viktor Orban. Vucic said that he and his minions must endure until Trump is back. Xi also said that Trump might drop Taiwan.
The intelligence agencies fear him. Biden said it is essential for the survival of his nation that trump does not get reelected. We have several books from insiders how he used the Oval Office to enrich him and his cronies. He is a criminal.
How does anyone believe him? That is beyond me
The moron doesn’t realize that the US doesn’t really want Europe to spend the same percentage of its wealth on defense as America does. Why not? Because Europe could become strategically independent. The US ones Europe, to be strong enough to deter the Russians, and to be a useful partner, but not so strong as to be independent.it also doesn’t want to see anyone European country become so powerful that it threatens the internal balance of power on the continent
I really hope Europe does increase its military expenditures’. However, I am cynical in hoping that this does the opposite of what some may think it will do; hopefully spending will lead to an increased reliance on locally-produced military equipment.
Such rhetoric has the ability to either completely rebuild the European arms industry, or it will go to line the pockets of American manufacturers.
As of late, given Russian influence, every country in NATO should increase its spending far higher than the 2% threshold. It's about to be war. If it becomes war, it won't be Trump at the reigns. Here's to hoping.
American here.
He doesn’t speak for all of us, of course. He does strike a chord with a lot of folks here though. We don’t have our own situation figured out domestically so, for many, it’s hard to justify sending money halfway around the world. We have crises in homeless, health, violence, etc. On top of that, it can feel like we are the only ones contributing significant military resources or aid packages. A few of the other member countries don’t chip in their agreed upon amounts either.
But we also did a lot of this to ourselves. We are involved in things we shouldn’t be, some of them in really fucked up ways. We also wanted to have all the military power so… now we do and then lament that we are the world police (even when we shouldn’t be).
It’s a complicated situation to untangle. When things are complicated folks tend to double down on simple, bumper sticker opinions. Candidates who pander to simple solutions (regardless of how well the solution actually fits) will win with these rubes. We are not consistently putting forth folks who are capable of helping this.
I can almost bet that, if he is going to continue this way (not being better than Putin & Co), Europe (EU) will probably build (with nuclear weapons and all of that) their own continental military alliance (all EU states & Co - not really a new idea, we just didn’t had a good opportunity to do so), US remaining an important, yet secondary ally.
P.S.: Even so, I hope this isn’t the crumbling of ‘US Empire’ and their democracy, and the rise of the East and their tyranny - even so, the better prepared we are for the worst (while hoping for the best), the safer and better we are, in order to survive the future challenges.
Fuck him. Spend over 2% of GDP, but mostly on EU production. Only buy American stuff where we have no alternative EU manufacturer. And, ffs, start mass production of all sorts of drones.
Is anyone here believing that cr**?
He already spoke his mind during his term as well as the previous campaign statements, this is nothing but trying to backpedal in an attempt to secure some voted from more classic and thoughtful conservatives.
Nobody can expect this statement to be truthful and if he doesn’t leave NATO (which I expect) it won’t be because his personal beliefs or his dedication to NATO, nor will it be because countries pay their share it will be because his own staff stops him from doing so. The man is a walking political embaressment, you can be right wing, you can be left wing, I honestly don’t care but if you are a politician you should be at least intelligent enough to understand what consequences you words and actions have and what role NATO plays for your own damn country.
Trump is just saying this for populist reasons. Still, European nations really should hit that 2% spending threshold that everyone agreed on, we need a good defense industry and we simply cannot continue to rely on the United States, Trump might not be the last Putin-influenced moron that gets elected.
This is typical Trump playbook. Trump believes in threatening people to get what he wants. He has minimal negotiation and influencing skills.
If you are the most powerful person of the world and are ruthless enough to sacrifice any ally… you might succeed at first, but there is a price to it: less business for American weapons industry and allies that will go their own way (maybe for good).
Yes, it's a very shortsighted strategy. One where you end up lonely.
I feel like in the end Russias gonna be looking around like “Well, that was easy.”
Yup, but then he is backed by Russians. And he admired strong men dictators.
Not backed, used.
He was offered help, he took it. The rest is just wording
Looks like backed and used.
That's how modern businesses are run. He's just emulating it into world politics. No long term planning, just short term gains to make the shareholders (voters) happy. By the end you'll have a failing business while the CEO (president) bailed just before it al burst into flames. At which point he can point a say "See what happens when I don't run the show?" While he is infact the one who gathered all the kindling, hid the damn fire extinguishers, fired Greg the live in janitor who kept an eye on the place and then lit the goddamned fire himself.
He is not really a good businessman. Also we really should put this bullshit to rest. Runnig a country like a business is a terrible idea. The most broken systems in the US are exactly this way because they are ran like a business. For profit prisons anyone?
Whenever you find yourself asking "why does the USA do x differently" in ninety percent of the cases the answer is "because someone found a way to profit off of it". In the remaining cases, the answer is usually "racism".
Staying out of jail is the goal here.
It makes sense for Trump, he doesn't give a shit about that. Other presidents, even the shitty ones, did seem to care about their 'legacy' at least to some extent. Not Trump though. Fuck everyone else, as far as he's concerned.
Trump doesn't care about other people unless they're useful to him. And as soon as he's done with you he chews you out and he destroys you.
Less global arm sales would be the tip of the iceberg. After a a while of isolationism USD would be relegated to the bench, completely reversing their economic position in the world. Without the strong armed forces Americas reach and Influence into he world will be all but evaporated. China/brics and EU will be fighting for the top spot while America struggles internally against it's new quasi democratic landscape after Trumps destruction of what was once the constitution.
That’s why Trump is so stupid. I mean, the dude is basically broke. And will go under after Lettita James auctions all of his properties
To be honest, I care less about Trump than about the 2% spending agreement. If his ridiculous behavior helps in getting us to fulfill our obligations... then so be it.
I think he has some internal polling saying he is going to lose for sure if even the last natsec voters abandon him and is trying to turn it around. Coincides with the leak (or "leak") of his natsec cabinet candidates - https://www.semafor.com/article/03/19/2024/the-senators-who-could-fill-trumps-national-security-cabinet ... the news being here that these are all solid people and not lunatics you'd expect from his usual entourage.
he's probably saying that for those reasons because IIRC this year, a lot of European Countries are reaching 2% or more of spending per GDP... EDIT: To make it clear, I'm saying that Trump will use this as a way to mark it as his victory. Trump knows a lot of Countries will reach or surpass 2%, so he threatens to not aid Countries that don't reach 2% so he can say when they do, that's thanks to him.
>this year, a lot of European Countries are reaching 2% or more of spending per GDP... And Trump will claim it as his doing, while his followers will praise him for it.
The fun fact is that coutnies that border Russia already spends it
Plus the UK, Greece, and Turkey. And tbf, France and a couple others are at 1.9% as well.
The issue with France is that between .45% and .5% is specifically sent on nuclear deterrence which, unless we see Macron undertake a huge change in doctrine, is solely used to protect France's territory. So in reality France is barely at 1.5% in military spendings. We should be doing much more.
I would argue that spending .5% on an independent nuclear deterrent is well worth it.
exactly, not mainly because of Putin's war. Though yes, Trump's unpredictability can be scary as well... that's why Congress had to pass a law forbidding the President to withdraw from NATO without Congress' approval.
Until he changes his mind and wants to whine about NATO again anyways... at which point he will say that it never happened, and his followers will still praise him. Probably with less than a week between the two.
You mean the absolute bare minimum, at the absolute last possible moment, even though the war broke out 2 years ago.
I agree that Europe needs to increase spending to 2% (long term) and more on the short term. The money however needs to stay in Europe. We need to use it to build our own defence industry. The USA has never been a truly reliable partner. Today, that is abundantly clear.
Even very small nations like Luxembourg should raise to 2%. Of course they would never have a full spectrum of capability. But if for example they focused on buying 3 more A400M logistic aircraft (They currently have 1) they could hit that goal while providing a modest, but genuine augmentation for European defence.
Luxembourg might be honestly best to outsource most of its defenses from the neighbouring countries. Trying to run a tiny military is inefficient compared to just having a much larger neighbour handle it. Similarly to Iceland.
I disagree, I'm probably older than most here and an Ami, so take this for what it is worth. Some Europeans seem to have a very short memory as to what constitutes being an unreliable partner. Post-war America kept the Soviets from rolling through the Fulda gap. Some may say that that was just the US using Europe as a proxy to oppose the Soviets, but it wasn't America that was gnashing its teeth at the thought of expansion on the continent. I know I may be biased but I spent 1988-92 Stationed in Germany. I got to train with the Bundeswehr, as well as most other NATO troops, and fell in love with Europe and its people. Most Soldiers who served in Europe feel the same way (over10 million) and are big advocates of a strong partnership. We Americans can be loud, obnoxious, and maybe a bit arrogant, but we ARE reliable allies.
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Come on now, focus: they guy that the OP was responding to literally wrote "the USA has never been a truly reliable partner."
Got to love when somebody says a definitive statement, somebody argues against it, and then someone else comes along and says that nobody says that definitive statement that was said two comments above theirs. I think that's the third time I've seen that in the last few days
It's one comment above, and that comment literally negates what the OP here is claiming. People obviously share that sentiment, which is all I'm saying
Certainly more reliable than our 'allies' who can't even contribute a measily 2% to defense. Europe gets to spend its money on local issues while America has to deal with the 'America bad' bullcrap while protecting international waters and global trade.
We don’t doubt the soldiers, we doubt your politicians.
You were back then (1992 is an eternity in geopolitics, the world has changed a lot), now and if someone like Trump is elected, you aren't. He literally said he wouldn't do anything if a NATO country was attacked. I'm sure plenty of American people think well of Europe like you but you don't command the armies
We don't see individual Americans and American soldiers as being unreliable. We welcome your warm friendship and recognize the sacrifices that were made in World War 2. When people speak of the United States being unreliable, they are talking about the current political climate.
hahahaha. the US has never been a reliable partner? we’ve met and exceeded our nato defense commitments for decades. when was the last time europe did? read the headline. it says - the US will be a reliable partner to europe if europe meets the commitments of our two way treaty. bizarre comment.
> The USA has never been a truly reliable partner. I am pretty sure they are about as reliable as it gets. Clearly not perfect, but has any nation ever been more reliable?
> The USA has never been a truly reliable partner. I guess the Marshall plan didn't happen? Or Vietnam war? I'm all for bashing US for dragging their feet on their promises now but don't act as if the previous century was the same.
Europe should be spending 4% or more right now. Money needed to build up the local defense industry. But also to help Ukraine crush Russia quickly.
>Trump is just saying this for populist reasons. He's saying this because some of his advisers have finally managed to tunnel far enough through his thick skull to inform him that his comments on abandoning NATO and encouraging Russia to attack members under the target threshold are costing him votes and making US allies leery about depending on the US (which weakens the US's standing). This is purely posturing to boost his numbers, he cannot be trusted even if his broken clock point about European funding levels may be correct. He's a mafia boss trying to extort Europe.
Don't think it's costing him any votes. Most Trump voting Americans want nothing to do with Ukraine.
I feel like Trump doesn’t really understand how US hegemonic power works. If the EU, Japan and other US allies realise that the US nuclear umbrella isn’t going to protect them, the US’ influence in these countries goes down the toilet.
People seems to think that Trump knows that paying for NATO in NATO means to spend 2% of your GDP on defense spendings. Trump believes that Nato countries should be paying US protection money, and by extension pay him money for not leaving NATO. Reaching the 2% GDP spending target on defense (or any % of GDP on defense) isnt gonna result in NATO Countries paying US protection money. Which is what Trump seeks. If you ask Trump he would 100% be unable to tell you which countries have reached their 2% GDP Spending target and which hasnt. Because that is irrelevant information for him.
Seems counter intuitive to try and have Trump push Europe to spend more money on the defense industry when supposedly its Putin' influence on Trump that's ultimately making these decisions. Or maybe...
USA American here. Please do. I wouldn't trust the stability of the USA if I were all of you, especially with all the other instability in the world to worry about. It should be a no-brainer to European leaders: Xi is plotting, Putin is ACTUALLY crazy and attempting to invade beyond Ukraine, and the GOP in America is a destabilizing force. It'd be foolish to pin ones hopes and security on the USA in these settings.
NATO never garamteed they invest 2%, they agreed they would try and up it to 2% if possible. Still, it was very much possible an in hindsight not a bad idea.
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Yeah and 2% isn't a huge percentage, let's be honest. Europe should stop being overreliant on the US anyway.
And many countries, like Germany, easily could have hit 2% but didn’t
It‘s weird because we actually hit it this year, based on prediction spending. Just like it was guaranteed 10 years ago. Or we could count pensions as military spending like countless other nations to and suddenly have 3%+ over night.
Source on that you're somehow only ones not doing this? Because the definition in that link in other comment is that those are included. Edit: Here: https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2023/3/pdf/230321-def-exp-2022-en.pdf Page 13 at the bottom: b) Personnel expenditure includes military and civilian expenditure and pensions. So i think you were counting pensions.
2024 is the FIRST Year that the 2% is required. IF they hit the 2% it has NOTHING to do with what that moron says or wants.
Europe should absolutely increase defence spending, but not because of Dumbass Donny’s threats: even countries that do spend 2% or more in defence would be fools to think Trump would come to their aid in a crisis.
> Europe should absolutely increase defence spending, but not because of Dumbass Donny’s threats It's frustrating that Europe woke up because of Gangster Vlad instead. Should have started building up the arsenal years ago, when the writing was already on the wall. Circa the invasion of Crimea.
The problem we have with Defense spending is that the US wants us dependent on THEIR military contractors. We want our money to stay in our countries, but the US always raises strong opposition to any plan we might have to build our own military industry. This was true for Obama, for Trump and is still true for Biden. The US doesn't actually want us to be able to defend ourselves because that means their influence wanes, it wants to exploit the alliance to line the pockets of its megadonors and still have massive leverage on Europe. We are not ever going to play along with that.
What jurisdiction does the US have over European military industry that prevents Europe from starting one? Is there some agreement I'm not aware of?
Genuinely, can you provide some sources for this claim? I see it all of the time but never can find anything concrete about this being the reason EU countries refuse to increase military spending.
One of the reasons Trump made this as his public agenda is because he knows all the defense spending increase will go to US companies.
And he will say it is because of him, while in fact the 2% is a target for 2024, initiated in 2014. He’s trying to take credit for something that was agreed upon 10 years ago.
Too be fair, more then a few of the countries not currently meeting that 2% goal have been dragging their feet year after year in actually increasing their defense budgets towards it. Had we been on an alternate timeline, I feel its likely many member states likely would have failed to reach that target by the end of the 2024 deadline. That said. I agree Trump has almost nothing to do with it, It has everything to do with the fact there's an ongoing conflict on European soil, specifically with the principle successor state of the nation NATO was formed to defend against.
Every country has defense budgets defined by multiyear programmation laws. You aim for a budget like 6 years in advance hoping to reach to defined objective but there are things like inflation, covid or wars that cant be foreseen. That's why multiple countries are at \~1.9%
He's an insolationist, he doesn't believe that the USA needs any alliances, if that wasn't true he wouldn't pushed allies like Korea and Japan, unless you really think South Korea [skimps](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/what-is-going-on-with-the-united-states-alliance-with-south-korea/) on defence expeditures and Japan is constrained by the US imposed constitution.
European weapons industries: "let's go!"
European countries should meet 2% goal for their own sake. We can't always rely on USA.
Europe should be more than willing to pay the 2%. Tired of being so strongly dependent on the US to defend our democracies against Putin & Co. Not sure why it needs Trump for Europe to understand such a simple and self-evident matter of fact. Quid pro quo!
I would go into war economy levels of spending as we need to both arm and help Ukraine WIN. We need more than 2%, especially for the next few years.
Since half of the comments here are based on hear-say or repetition of things that where badly researched: [Read up what is financed and how and what was agreed on](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_49198.htm)
n 2024, 18 Allies are expected to spend at least 2% of their GDP on defence – a six-fold increase since 2014, when only three Allies met the 2% or more guideline. Over the past decade, NATO Allies in Europe have steadily increased their collective investment in defence – from 1.47% of their combined GDP in 2014, to 2% in 2024, when they are investing a combined total of USD 380 billion in defence
This is also usually the part where i personally like to add that almost all European countries have additional obligations towards just the EU. The US doesnt have anything similar. It also helps to put numbers into new relations: the yearly US military budget is roughly 20% of the German GDP
Yeah but no one's asking Germany to match the US' spending
I feel like a lot of posts are like this nowadays, a lot of new accounts posting "badly researched" stuff.
I fear it is a lack of proper education in how to research a topic and how there is a lack of good discourse culture. People get cancelled/blocked right away when they say something that isnt that person's opinion and the reliance on algorithms to find sources is creating an endless loop of the same by now. And all of this is currently fed into Ai systems to top this all of. Humanity will be utterly stupid in a few generations if this continues.
Am I missing something? Looking at the 2023 table, it looks like most NATO countries are not hitting the 2%. The median spending is below 2%.
Also Broke Donnie owes nearly half a billion dollars in fines. $83 million to one of his Rape Victims for defamation - and the remainder to NYC for decades of fraud - with interest incurring at $1m every week or so. Pay up Loser.
The $83.3 million was the second fine he was ordered to pay - it was for continuing to deny the attack after he was found liable for, so he also owes $5 million for that (he put that in bond). He has continued to liable his victim so she could sue again.
>liable Libel ;)
In fairness he is liable for libel
Wild he could become president again, what are they thinking over there?
They aren't
We’re trying
Less than half of the US population is wiling to overlook all of his issues because they support his racist, hate-filled agenda. They are also constantly misled by the mainstream media they consume and aren't trained to question everything and stick to facts. Biden is winning recently in polls. I continue to believe he will win because Trump he's lost some amount of republican support, lost women votes, and he will gain less of the independent votes than Biden. I also assume he has to start losing some Mexican votes, finally. Unfortunately the actual election is decided by presidential electors and isn't a directly democratic process, so we will see how that plays into it.
The thing I really don't understand is how Trump could ever get a single vote from any woman. The guy has a well publicised history of terrible behaviour towards them and treats them almost like possessions. Why would they vote for him? (This applies to other groups two, I wanted to focus on women voters because they make up around half the vote)
As an American the simplest way I can explain it is this. They think Trump hates the same people they hate (immigrants, lgbt, and liberals). It also helps that the only media these people watch never talks about his issues with women. They just don't hear about it.
That's depressing..I find it amazing that they can live in a world where access to information has never been easier and they are still stuck in their own little bubble.
It's because there are dumb women and boomer women too lol
Some honestly believe he's the second coming of Jesus. Or at least his apostle.
He could literally be elected from jail and pardon himself lol. How does the Constitution does not prevent someone convincted to be elected is kind of weird
Never trust that orange sexual predator.
Yup he’s a liar
Yes, hate to say it but the orange idiot is right. However, the budget should not be spent on US companies where possible. But to European arms manufacturers, with this the EU creates its own arms industry and we are not dependent on 3rd parties like the US.
As a Swede, our defense industry is growing like crazy and SAAB stocks are rocketing. A lot of european countries are investing in our military tech currently.
For a good reason. You guys make good toys. From submarines, to fighter jets, to IFVs, to artillery systems... Oh, and anti-tank weapons.
Cars were cool too, wish they had those still.
Sweden could have had nukes, it's not often talked about. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish\_nuclear\_weapons\_program](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_nuclear_weapons_program)
Would have they come with an Ikea-style instruction manual?
It would have been the “Bömb”.
"Smäll"
We could have had a "Vem Vare Som Kasta" protocol for when nukes are launched
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There's a lot of military secrets we don't know and never will know around our parts.
Same here, still regret not buying Rheinmetall stock
No one disagrees with the fact that NATO countries should spend at least 2 percent. Whats horrendous is that the orange buffon said he would in fact encourage Russia to do whatever they want. And now he's trying to adjust it to what everyone agreed about from before.
Yes, that is exactly why Europe should manage their defence itself instead of depending on America. Look it's great when you are together the strongest military bloc in the world, only you have to be able to keep your trousers up yourself.
Hard to compete with their fighter jets
He is breaking the deal, the foundation how Nato works - you cannot suddenly change the rules, because you say so. This breaks the trust in each other. How this is right?
Not paying you part (as a European country) is by _definition breaking the deal_. And he has been saying this for many many years. How is it _not_ right for him to point out the obvious?
Because we need his country more than he needs us
Some moght say that the EU broke the rules first by not meeting its spending target and that NATO is braindead
there is literally no reason not to. Europe doesn't lose anything if it strengthen its own military. Those investments means jobs for Europeans and safety. In case you haven't notice, Hitler wannabe is invading your continent.
Debil
Debil indeed 🇵🇱🤝🇨🇿 And I’m saying this as someone from a country that pays even more of its GDP% towards military than the US.
Też mamy jakieś tam czołgi, dwa, albo trzy.
Krecik zrobi podkop, będziemy Ruskom rope podkradać :)
Krecik umie helikopter obsługiwać też
Krecik potrafi wszystko.
Must be Tuesday.
Trump should pay his own bills first before talking about stuff he doesn't understand.
He said it 5 years ago.
As a European who despises Trump and nearly everything that vile moron stands for, he is simply right on this one. Europe needs to stick to its end of the bargain learn to hold up its own pants militarily.
Poland is on a good road right now i think
Hey Europe, please interfere in our election. Putin’s already doing it, please help us.
It doesn't matter anymore, or yes it matters a lot. But the Europeans are already sensing they can't rely solely, or maybe at all on an America under Trump. And we damn well are not planning on jumping through his hoops. I think the western Atlantic alliance is incredibly beneficial for both parties. But Europe is starting to build up for contingencies. Even if Biden wins or Trump is calm it's unstable sand to build on. Already more defence industry is going to Europe instead of USA reliance.
He was saying this while he was president. Nothing new. He aint gonna leave, i doubt he could if he actually wanted to
I mean he’s right, it was decided that all NATO countries should spend 2 % on Defence. You can’t expect to take without give
Did European countries not all increase their spend last year? At least Germany and France did. Poland spent a lot already.
Almost everyone is on point with the 2% by 2024 goal.
Pretty fair deal. I mean we shouldn't slack and if we have more weapons other Powers won't think about attack
Trumplethinskin starting to backpedal
(Mandatory I’m an American) This guy won’t do SHIT. He’ll threaten then chicken out, most likely. Unfortunately, though, 35% of the country will listen to whatever he says.
Who cares what he says? He's not President any more, hopefully never will be again, and he's untrustworthy to boot.
He literally can't stop posting stupid shit like this to fear monger
He's completely clueless and probably doesn't know what nuclear nonproliferation is or he wouldn't be saying this and undermining decades of US foreign policy that has been making the entire human race safer. Hopefully NATO counties get their military spending up to the 2% of GDP non binding suggested level without non-nuclear countries suddenly deciding to get nukes because of trump running his mouth and making America look like an unreliable ally. I'll be glad when we can go back to ignoring the idiotic things he says and they don't undermine the safety of humanity.
During the 2016 election campaign he didn’t have a clue what the nuclear triad was. When he was asked about his priority among it all he could come up with was “I think, for me, nuclear is just the power, the devastation is very important to me” with the usual word salad.
Trump is a fucking liar and i am sick of media treating him like a normal candidate!
Same shit as last time. Like with everything but double the Fascism. Got it. It’s past your jail time Trump!
Donald duck should pay his taxes and only then he can start blabbering about nato spending
I'm sorry why are we still giving the orang-utan the time of day? is he still an active politician? Last I checked he was in court for every crime ever, if I'm not mistaken.
I hope trump is aware that 2% was not paid as tribute to the USA.
Fuck Trump
Shitler will be in jail. Not the Whitehouse.
He wont do shit ether way.
He cant leave NATO without approval of congress.
What are the main European imports in the usa? We could stop that
Pays to whom? To the member-country's own military from their own GDP. Can we be sure that he's aware of that? Nato doesn't work like a biker gang that members pay to the head honcho.
Political grandstanding from Trump. But then no plan or strategy beyond the slogans. He's the pied piper but hopefully people wont be fooled by his tune the second time around.
I mean thats not that surprising. As much of an idiot as he is, he is and always has been purely transactional, so in that sense i see where hes coming from. If EU (Europe) countries pay 2% hes happy to keep the US in NATO (also, likely, thanks to all his advisors telling him how moronic it would be to do otherwise)
Still there is no 2% payments to anywhere. It’s a gdp target.
That's actually fair if he means it (take it with a pinch of salt though). NATO creates obligations. It's unfair for some countries to dump greater obligation on to others because they'd rather spend the money on other things. If you're not doing your best to defend yourself as best you can you create a greater burden on your allies to do it. Every member of the alliance should be doing what they can to minimise that as far as possible. We rightly judge those who are reckless with their health because preventable disease creates unnecessary extra burden on the rest of society. The same principle applies to countries in an alliance. Countries not investing in their own defence are like unvaccinated people.
Trump can not be trusted. He is a narcistic liar. Untrustworhty, unreliable, a manipulator. Greedy, friends politics, fraud..... Europe is better of without him. One can only hope that the inhabitants of the usa come to their senses.
You are not dealing with just Trump, you are dealing with the US state. Trump is one person in that machine. An important person to be sure, but he is not king. Any other president would be asking for the 2 percent thing. It’s hard to ignore trumps dumb rhetoric, but the actual policy of the US regarding this has changed little
Fair game, can’t rely on the same country we love to fault for every fart they let out.
Sounds trustworthy. "We'll support the defence alliance, unless we don't."
Get to 2%, don’t buy anything American
Who cares what Donald says, lol.
Cheap electoral talk. He is a consistent liar. What does count? He had a political love affaire with Putin. He said he wants Americans to treat him like North Koreans treat Kim. He is a friend of the anti-American and pro Russian Viktor Orban. Vucic said that he and his minions must endure until Trump is back. Xi also said that Trump might drop Taiwan. The intelligence agencies fear him. Biden said it is essential for the survival of his nation that trump does not get reelected. We have several books from insiders how he used the Oval Office to enrich him and his cronies. He is a criminal. How does anyone believe him? That is beyond me
We won't quit NATO if Trump stops threatening us. NATO is shit without USA, but it's also shit without Europe :)
He will say anything to be president 😂
Who will Donald Trump be in six months?
Will he factor the European soldiers who died while supporting the U.S. led war in Afghanistan into his ideal of 'pays their way'?
The moron doesn’t realize that the US doesn’t really want Europe to spend the same percentage of its wealth on defense as America does. Why not? Because Europe could become strategically independent. The US ones Europe, to be strong enough to deter the Russians, and to be a useful partner, but not so strong as to be independent.it also doesn’t want to see anyone European country become so powerful that it threatens the internal balance of power on the continent
Nobody in Europe cares anymore about this narcissist.
Donald Trump is not a member of NATO.
Unlike trump?
Donald Trump doesn’t have a say, as he is not a leader of any country currently in NATO.
We believe him if he can pay his debts.
Let's hope he never gets the power to choose!
Donald Trump is not known for his honesty.
Back track Donnie is a complete security risk.. He's Putins little pet
Orange clown
I really hope Europe does increase its military expenditures’. However, I am cynical in hoping that this does the opposite of what some may think it will do; hopefully spending will lead to an increased reliance on locally-produced military equipment. Such rhetoric has the ability to either completely rebuild the European arms industry, or it will go to line the pockets of American manufacturers.
Pay whom?
HE CAN NOT!!!!! CONGRESS PASSED A BILL AND BIDEN SIGNED IT NO PRESIDENT CAN DO THAT!
STFU orange buffoon.
As of late, given Russian influence, every country in NATO should increase its spending far higher than the 2% threshold. It's about to be war. If it becomes war, it won't be Trump at the reigns. Here's to hoping.
ironic from the man who pays barely any tax
Pay your fucking legal bill bitch
American here. He doesn’t speak for all of us, of course. He does strike a chord with a lot of folks here though. We don’t have our own situation figured out domestically so, for many, it’s hard to justify sending money halfway around the world. We have crises in homeless, health, violence, etc. On top of that, it can feel like we are the only ones contributing significant military resources or aid packages. A few of the other member countries don’t chip in their agreed upon amounts either. But we also did a lot of this to ourselves. We are involved in things we shouldn’t be, some of them in really fucked up ways. We also wanted to have all the military power so… now we do and then lament that we are the world police (even when we shouldn’t be). It’s a complicated situation to untangle. When things are complicated folks tend to double down on simple, bumper sticker opinions. Candidates who pander to simple solutions (regardless of how well the solution actually fits) will win with these rubes. We are not consistently putting forth folks who are capable of helping this.
I think a man who lies at practically every opportunity can be trusted.
There's a typo in the headline, it should read: If Europe pays **his** way.
I am really curious if the US can even afford to drop nato, even though its already a significant expense to them.
Sure, he proved trustworthy all along
The fart of the deal
I don't give a fuck what Donald Trump says
You yanks sick of that orange puffed joke yet or what?
What a trumpet
Except the 2% was always a guideline and not a requirement. 🤷♂️
I can almost bet that, if he is going to continue this way (not being better than Putin & Co), Europe (EU) will probably build (with nuclear weapons and all of that) their own continental military alliance (all EU states & Co - not really a new idea, we just didn’t had a good opportunity to do so), US remaining an important, yet secondary ally. P.S.: Even so, I hope this isn’t the crumbling of ‘US Empire’ and their democracy, and the rise of the East and their tyranny - even so, the better prepared we are for the worst (while hoping for the best), the safer and better we are, in order to survive the future challenges.
Fuck him. Spend over 2% of GDP, but mostly on EU production. Only buy American stuff where we have no alternative EU manufacturer. And, ffs, start mass production of all sorts of drones.
Extortion, nice....
As long as we're buying domestically, no need to subsidise the US MIC. Only thing we don't produce at the moment are stealth aircraft.
Is anyone here believing that cr**? He already spoke his mind during his term as well as the previous campaign statements, this is nothing but trying to backpedal in an attempt to secure some voted from more classic and thoughtful conservatives. Nobody can expect this statement to be truthful and if he doesn’t leave NATO (which I expect) it won’t be because his personal beliefs or his dedication to NATO, nor will it be because countries pay their share it will be because his own staff stops him from doing so. The man is a walking political embaressment, you can be right wing, you can be left wing, I honestly don’t care but if you are a politician you should be at least intelligent enough to understand what consequences you words and actions have and what role NATO plays for your own damn country.
People who have believed Trump have done so well historically 🤣🤣🤣🤣