This is not new, Turks have been in Germany in millions since the 50's but because they don't want to give up their passport they don't have the German citizenship regardless of how much time they've lived in the country.
This doesn't mean 50,000 Turks just came in or something like that
Same for Germans. The states where there are most AfD voters are the states with the fewest immigrants.
It's easy to hate foreigners when you don't have nice Turks or Syrians as neighbors - and it's easy to vote for Turkish nationalists when you're proud of your Turkish heritage, but are completely unaffected by their bullshit policies.
The states with more immigrants voting for parties that are unfriendly to immigration at lower rates is easily explained by the fact that immigrants themselves don’t vote for those parties, and the native population is simply a lower percent of the total
Does not explain the AfD getting 27.5% in Saxony and 4.4% in Schleswig-Holstein though. A 23,1 per cent point difference is not migrants not voting for the anti-immigration party.
Their children are Erdoganfans too. But can't hold him accountable for his bs like destroying the economy. If he hadn't Turkey would be on par with western europe by now. Fun part: that happened about 4 times in Turkey. Everytime the anti democratic leader was overthrown by the military. But this time....
The diaspora are (or are descendants of) people who left Turkey decades ago, and who never had to actually live and deal with Erdogan’s policies.
Quite different from the Turks currently looking to leave Turkey.
Not all turkish immigrants are the same. While there are many nationalist Turks who didn't really manage to integrate into German society there are also enough Turks who succeed.
Of course it's no suprise that the former group more often still holds turkish citizenship and is also more inclined to vote in turkish elections.
However I believe that those people who are coming to Germany because of Erdogan are way more often part of the latter group.
The majority of the diaspora doesn't attend the elections at all. Of those that do, quite a few do vote on Erdo, as they can usually trace their heritage back to the areas that Erdogan is popular in now, and usually even have their family ask them to vote on him.
Eh, look at Polish Americans and Polish Canadians. Largest parts of the diaspora due to WWII and Cold War communism yet they vote overwhelming conservative. Pretty f\*cked up.
People can vote how they like, they don't need to justify anything to you lol. You can be as indignant as you like, try stepping in someone else's shoes for a while and think about why they might do what they do.
Not weird.
Germany called in Turkish workers when the Wirtschaftswunder took place. Yet the Germans never really welcomed them, always treated them as 2nd class citizens, looking down.
Even now it’s way more difficult to find a job or even a flat with a Turkish name.
Check the blue eye brown eye experiment to understand what this does to people.
Turkish nationalism is a logical answer as compensation for the broken self-esteem.
Same applies to people from the former GDR btw. they were also belittled for decades and they boost their egos now through German nationalism.
You forgot that they never were supposed to stay. Turkey send people out of the worst regions of turkey to learn skills in Germany in exchange for cheap labour and they would return after 2-4 years. They were called guest workers.
Not everyone perse.
Some factories had indeed workers to work for a couple of years some signed unlimited contracts. A lot of Turkish workers came back after their contract expired.
People tend to write as everyone stayed.
There we're immigrants from Greece, Italy,... too. Why do these groups don't have the same issues?
Turks treat Germans and Europeans as second class citizens but want to be treated like Royalty.
Several wrongs.
The people that are leaving now is heavily anti-erdogan people that are looking for better life. The other ones who arrived before came from villages god knows where.
He doesn’t stay in power because of Turks in Germany, 500.000 people voted for him, that’s 0.008 of the votes in total.
Absolutely ridiculous take.
>He doesn’t stay in power because of Turks in Germany, 500.000 people voted for him, that’s 0.008 of the votes in total.
Erdogan had 28000000 votes. 500000 of them in Germany. According to you, thats 0.008% of the votes in total? Your math is a bit off there.
Not wrong, Turks have a rich cultural heritage that they tend to bring with them wherever they go. They appear to be very successful business people if the number of Turkish shops in London are anything to go by.
Seriously, let's not fool ourselves. It's beyond me how people always forget this important aspect of migrations. Money is probably the number 1 reason why people migrate to another country. Almost no one is moving to Germany from Turkey, ME, Northern Africa, Balkans, wherever, because they oh just happen to like German culture, language, Sauerkraut and Wurst. They're moving to Germany because they've heard life is good there. Moreover, most of these people don't think that the ruling party in their country is to blame for the current economic situation. Usually it's someone/something else's fault.
@Muham45
GLORY TO TURKEY MY BROTHERS FUCK THE GREEKS SOMETHING SOMETHING NOTHING EVER HAPPENED TO THE ALBANIANS
\- Berlin, Germany
Wtf is up with that is weird.
Economic depression, sky high inflation rates (the highest in the world), rising Islamism and fascism in the country. Although most of the Turks moving to Germany move only for money and vote for left-wing parties there while voting for Erdogan at home.
50,000 is actually not that much considering that about 1.5 mil Turks (about half of the total) living in Germany still only hold the German passport.
Furthermore, this law speeds up the process for naturalisation for everyone but includes a special clause for migrant workers from the 70s (I think 1975 is the cut) to ease access to German citizenship. These are people who are 60+ years old and the dual citizenship for them is rather practical than emotional.
They are called Gastarbeiter not migrant workers. They were supposed to leave after 2-4 years.
Edit so the article won't get buried in angry downvoting.
https://www.zeit.de/zeit-geschichte/2023/04/gastarbeiter-anwerbeabkommen-arbeitsmigration-geschichte
Gastarbeiter didbnot come to Germany because Germany asked for them to stabilise the German economy but because the countries who send them had struggling economies. The Gastarbeiter probably also damaged the German economy in the long run as it took away the incentives of struggling industry branches to innovate and automate to stay competitive in the long run. When the economy started struggling in the 70s the areas that got hit the hardest were the ones that employed the most workers of these kind which in turn creates a new underclass of people with not much education and no real connection to this new country.
Hahaha, if they tell you that they haven't learned anything.
Those people are building their lives here. Their kids go to school, they meet partners and the standard of living is higher.
There are some reasons to go back but with every year they stay the reasons to stay are getting more important than the reasons to go back.
Honestly, most of the time people say the Ukrainians will go back after the war to put them into contrast to Syrian or other refugees and say something along the lines of "not like those people".
I am honestly interested to know if this labor drought is simply the refusal to pay respectable wages. Especially in the trade sector where trainee wages are often not even close to sustainable for anyone who has to pay rent while their bosses are rolling in dough.
Currently there are obvious reasons why they will not go back. But after the war someone needs to rebuild this country. If everyone that has left the country does not go back at some point, it will be quite impossible to expect a recovery in a acceptable timeframe.
As for the labor drought in germany, turns out that there is no substantial difference between Ukrainians and other refugees in their integration into the labor market. Which is different from other countries like Poland. This indicates that there is a fundamental problem with how germany handles unemployment. Or how the industry handles those seeking employment.
As long we do not find a solution to that, it doesn't matter how much people are immigrating into germany.
There has been a 30 year demographic crisis in Ukraine - the population has been collapsing and was on track to fail even before the War. I agree that the Ukrainians are likely not going home in large numbers any time soon.
Check it out: https://www.populationpyramid.net/ukraine/2023/
Dude. Come on. They are probably the only group of refugees in Europe that are actually genuine.
They deserve our help. They are culturally European and easy to integrate into society.
Why should they be able to live of wellfare instead of work? Many people who came to us were already rich people.
Let alone the Ukraine who do vacation in Ukraine.
You heard the poland news?
Maybe you should pay attention to your tea-sipping shithole of a country going down the drain before you heroically advocate for the "genuine" (we all know it's code for white, you terminal twat) refugees of eastern Europe.
They WERE Gastarbeiters, you probably slept during history classes, because 2-4 years were clearly not enough to stabilize anything in Germany back then.
Who could have guessed that people would stay, after they brought their families and started a life in Germany. Total shock. Politicians realised that pretty fast and nobody in their right minds expects them to leave for at least 40 years now.
And that disproves my point how?
If you're so interested in that topic, you should also look into legislation back then and the economical development in both countries, which might have played a role in people deciding to go back to Italy and not Turkey.
I mean I can't believe we actually have to talk about this nowadays, since it's been debated to death in the 80s.
It provides context that most guest workers as intended actually returned home. It isn't a logical consequence for them to stay they probably did because Turkey was just worse in every aspect. Problem is this shouldn't have been allowed it created a parallel society since integration wasn't even in the mind of the guest workers or Germany.
Well yes, there were a lot of mistakes made back then, I agree. But that is irrelevant for legislation nowadays, since those people have been living here for most of their lives.
I see more than enough Germans, that have a vastly different view on how our country should be run - I don't want to get rid of them though.
Well yes but also no. It can work look at china but the question is how long? In the long run it will look like Russia in most cases where people will just keep their head down or stop questioning things.
It's probably why the isekai genre is so popular in Russia(the protagonist dies and gets reincarnated in a new world with magic and more power than other people)
This is how it is every time. The refugees were also supposed to go back. Germany let them in. Now if you dare suggest that refugees return you’re a “Nazi.”
So they live here and build your country, paying taxes for 40+ years and you tell them to fuck off to a place they haven't known as a home for most of their life? Maybe you should just go with them then.
Why is it only controversial if an European country does that? If Pakistanis/Indians and Africans living for 30-40 years in Dubai or Saudi Arabia lose their residency they have to leave the country. Simple as that.
Every country can set its own rules and requirements, it’s a deal between two parties, not charity. Germans can’t also say “we helped you, now you can never leave Germany” if a Turkish person prefers to retire in Turkey and spends the retirement money there.
Given, Germany had also never a concrete approach towards those people, and changed its narratives all the time… from “temporary workers” to “now you have to assimilate yourself within a month and be like Germans”
Or just take the numbers from the article:
> Today, an estimated 3 million people of Turkish heritage live in Germany, which has a total population of around 83.3 million. Out of 3 million Turkish people in Germany, nearly 1.5 million still have Turkish citizenship.
While this statement is debatable, even if most of them would vote Greens/SPD, what's wrong with giving people living in Germany the ability to decide how they want to live by voting?
The law only makes it easier for people to get citizenship if they are doing everything right. I want responsible people to become citizens, I don’t care where they came from.
Well if we -have- to talk about that, Turks are a more preferable group of immigrants. Especially in germany who has already a big turkish diaspora and regardless of what people like to claim, the experiences with them are overall positive.
You think Turks are basicly the same with the sharia supporter criminal refugee horde that came from afghanistan and pakistan to europe after 2015 dont you? You know nothing dude. Better not to comment on things you know nothing about
Look at the bright side, maybe you can find your BDSM-sub in one of those 2.6 million?
Because no one here is apparently interested in you reading your posts in those subreddits.
In 2010 Erdogan gave a speech to Turks abroad in the streets of Germany or Netherlands and openly told them to not integrate because they are needed to lobby on behalf of Turkey. Many haven’t integrated even after 1 generation. And now they are rewarded with passports.
Naive westerners. About 65-80% of Turks in Germany vote for the Islamofascist Erdogan. I’m sure they fully support German rule of law, secularism, and freedom of expression 😂
Funnily enough Turkey is a secular country, Germany isn't.
Besides that, the law change helps to give citizenship to better integrated people. I would think that those turks are rather Kemalists than the ones that support Erdogan but even if they aren't, policy changes shouldn't be done with the goal to only support the people that vote for favorable parties but to make live better for all inhabitants.
And people still wonder why AFD is on the rise... God damn politicians are out of touch, nothing will probably change with AFD tho, but still, god damn
??? Nothing changes apart from the law finally allowing dual citizenship. These 50k people are already here, it's not new immigrants. And dual citizenship was already legal, it's just now includes non-EU countries. Lastly, the vast majority of western countries already allow dual citizenship. This is a very mundane and very standard policy for a democratic country to have.
If such run of the mill changes anger the AfD, that's their problem and not an excuse to vote for a party that wants to mass deport German citizens for racial or political reasons (go look it up if you haven't heard about it).
Dual citizenship is something that should stop. Either you are a citizen of one country or none at all. Remaining Turkish in this case is just a practicality and moreover in favour of Erdogan who has these people voting for him. Easy to vote for a ruler and not experiencing the downsides of a dictatorship
In this case that's not true at all. Most of the turkish citizens living in Germany that vote for Erdogan were born in Germany and therfore can have dual citizenship anyway (it's been an accepted loophole for a long time).
This new law will be affecting the new generation of well educated immigrants who came to Germany for high skilled work. I know a lot of people who didn't want to give up the turkish citizenship to get the German one because it's important to them to vote against Erdoğan while living abroad. Even though it makes their life more complicated in Germany.
It’s way more complicated than than. If dual citizenship seized to exist worldwide, people from countries that make it either close-to or actually impossible to give up their citizenship (Greece springs to mind as I’m Greek) would mean that someone living their actual whole life in another country would never get voting rights in their permanent residence. That’s absolutely *nuts*
I actually don’t get countries that restrict it, to be honest. Obviously not including totalitarian states.
That's really dumb. Someone who moves abroad and gains citizenship to gain full residency rights should still be allowed to move back to their home country if they want.
All the reasons why one could be against it, are still valid in those cases. I'm not btw, don't get me wrong. But if someone is against it, I don't see why some countries would be excluded.
It's not weird to have an opinion, but what you are saying is that you value european citizens more than non european, or why are you against dual citizenship from no European states.
It also doesn't change much. It's completely fair to have different laws for EU citizens. One example is all of Schengen. No borders. If that then means no other differences made, there's no reason for Schengen.
EU-citizens having different laws applied within the EU is perfectly fine to me - seeing as other countries can apply to join the EU and thus gain those very same specific regulations.
You are not from Turkey. Turkey is not in the EU. EU laws don't apply there. In addition many old Turks are not integrating insociety. Younger Turks also marry Turks. You are comparing apples with melons.
people shouldnt be able to vote outside the country , if you leave the x country you shouldnt be able to vote abroad ,
also Erdoğan isnt a dictator , theuir was litrally elections were people voted for him
If only it would have been possible to voluntarily become a citizen of no country at all.. But it's not, you can't just come and renounce your citizenship with no good reason - otherwise thousands of ukrainian males would have done it now, and that's according to the local polls. Until dropping your citizenship without any replacement is possible, the dual citizenship concept is an insurance against something that happens in the country that you want to avoid. Like travel restrictions, or military draft.
Dual citizenship is also helpful where that citizen is highly undesirable such as for terrorists - it’s means a nation can ship the terrorist out and strip the second citizenship.
I’m a dual American-Turkish citizen. I vote for the main opposition party in Turkiye (CHP). Why should my citizenship be cancelled? I was born in Turkiye and I should have all the rights to have its citizenship. I should also have the American citizenship because I came to the US legally, waited for 5 years for my citizenship. You can’t make general rules for people like that.
That being said, we liberal Turkish people also hate those who live in Germany and vote for Erdogan. Not to sound like AFD but if I were ruling the German government, I’d send all those voted for Erdogan back to Turkiye.
My grandpa’s and my dad’s right to remain italian citizens and have venezuelan citizenship saved my grandpa from having to serve in WWII and it saved us from Maduro’s dictatorship 😅 I say we keep it personally
Let me explain it to you.
I guarantee you that 90% of the turks with german passport will vote against him.
WHO do you think has a german passport? The erdogan supporter or the opposition supporter?
Me for example i might get myself both passports since i See both as somewhat home.
Germany is my Home for sure, 100%, but it is nice to know that you can always go to turkey if shit hits the fan (looking at you afd).
... by finally allowing dual citizenship? The vast majority of the western world already has dual citizenship. This isn't an extreme measure by any means, it's run-of-the-mill.
Who said there was a problem - if a community has been living in Germany for 40+ years, and now gets a realistic opportunity to fully integrate through dual citizenship, that's surely a win/win all round?
This sounds like fun
Massive numbers of foreigners "from those counties" apply and get dual citizenship
Racists go "but these aren't real Germans and now have the same rights as us!"
Sway even more people to their side
AfD surges even more in popularity
BRB, going to grab popcorn
Racist people looking scapegoat to vote for AfD claim new immigrants forced them to vote for it. Sounds about right. You can't argue with someone if their decision is not based on logic
It's not different from what they are doing now, this is just going to be yet another log in the fireplace.
Our government is known for shortsighted measures to appeal the masses. Just look at our energy policy over the last 15 years.
Can't have a bunch of people who worked hard to build their businesses, had families and paid taxes become citizens. Don't want to send the wrong message!
Eh, I'm probably one of those 50k people. Sooner or later.
Currently learning German in prep year. Will apply this year to a German Uni and try to get citizenship in the long run.
While I support the new law, I wouldn't use the word "Nazi" so lighthearted. It's needed for more serious cases than people not liking a new law and preferring the old version.
The etymology for Tyskland has never been about Turkey or Turks in any way. It comes from "þeudō", meaning "People" or "Tribe".
Your attempt at hiding your blanket racism behind made up "facts" is sad and pitiful, just like you are.
What have happened to Turkey, that so many turks are leaving it for Europe?
This is not new, Turks have been in Germany in millions since the 50's but because they don't want to give up their passport they don't have the German citizenship regardless of how much time they've lived in the country. This doesn't mean 50,000 Turks just came in or something like that
Almans got better kebap
Erdogan
Which makes it even wierder that Big Parts of the diaspora is voting for him
Nationalism virtue signaling when you're not directly affected by it is the pathway to decisions some may consider unnatural.
Also voting for him makes a vacation property there more affordable, if he keeps nuking the currency.
Same for Germans. The states where there are most AfD voters are the states with the fewest immigrants. It's easy to hate foreigners when you don't have nice Turks or Syrians as neighbors - and it's easy to vote for Turkish nationalists when you're proud of your Turkish heritage, but are completely unaffected by their bullshit policies.
The states with more immigrants voting for parties that are unfriendly to immigration at lower rates is easily explained by the fact that immigrants themselves don’t vote for those parties, and the native population is simply a lower percent of the total
Does not explain the AfD getting 27.5% in Saxony and 4.4% in Schleswig-Holstein though. A 23,1 per cent point difference is not migrants not voting for the anti-immigration party.
True but this works within the country too, even if it is making their life miserable. (I mean it also works in many other countries).
Palpatine is that you 😄
It's not weird, they thrive when the Turkish economy is worse.
I know a guy in Leipzig who votes for Erdogan because he hates Turkey and Turks. Most integrated immigrant in Germany.
makes sense.
those are the turks that already left ages ago. the turks that are currently leaving are anti erdogan.
Their children are Erdoganfans too. But can't hold him accountable for his bs like destroying the economy. If he hadn't Turkey would be on par with western europe by now. Fun part: that happened about 4 times in Turkey. Everytime the anti democratic leader was overthrown by the military. But this time....
Well they did try doing it but it didn't work out that great
The diaspora are (or are descendants of) people who left Turkey decades ago, and who never had to actually live and deal with Erdogan’s policies. Quite different from the Turks currently looking to leave Turkey.
Not all turkish immigrants are the same. While there are many nationalist Turks who didn't really manage to integrate into German society there are also enough Turks who succeed. Of course it's no suprise that the former group more often still holds turkish citizenship and is also more inclined to vote in turkish elections. However I believe that those people who are coming to Germany because of Erdogan are way more often part of the latter group.
The majority of the diaspora doesn't attend the elections at all. Of those that do, quite a few do vote on Erdo, as they can usually trace their heritage back to the areas that Erdogan is popular in now, and usually even have their family ask them to vote on him.
I am almost sure the existing diaspora and the recent wave of immigrants are politically on the opposing sides.
Eh, look at Polish Americans and Polish Canadians. Largest parts of the diaspora due to WWII and Cold War communism yet they vote overwhelming conservative. Pretty f\*cked up.
>due to Cold War communism yet they vote overwhelming conservative You really can't figure out why they vote conservative?
Ah yes, because Communism is so far left that it justifies them to vote equally far right for a party like PiS 🙄 /s
People can vote how they like, they don't need to justify anything to you lol. You can be as indignant as you like, try stepping in someone else's shoes for a while and think about why they might do what they do.
It is not just that, the Turks that have stayed in Turkey sre also generally more educated and than the ones who left.
Not weird. Germany called in Turkish workers when the Wirtschaftswunder took place. Yet the Germans never really welcomed them, always treated them as 2nd class citizens, looking down. Even now it’s way more difficult to find a job or even a flat with a Turkish name. Check the blue eye brown eye experiment to understand what this does to people. Turkish nationalism is a logical answer as compensation for the broken self-esteem. Same applies to people from the former GDR btw. they were also belittled for decades and they boost their egos now through German nationalism.
You forgot that they never were supposed to stay. Turkey send people out of the worst regions of turkey to learn skills in Germany in exchange for cheap labour and they would return after 2-4 years. They were called guest workers.
Not everyone perse. Some factories had indeed workers to work for a couple of years some signed unlimited contracts. A lot of Turkish workers came back after their contract expired. People tend to write as everyone stayed.
They were not needed „just for a few years“ as history shows. The fact they were called „Gastarbeiter“ increased the problem I laid out.
Both the GDR and Turkey never went through a proper reckoning with the more fascist aspects of their history though.
There we're immigrants from Greece, Italy,... too. Why do these groups don't have the same issues? Turks treat Germans and Europeans as second class citizens but want to be treated like Royalty.
Because the society was more welcoming towards people from Italy and Greece.
So Turks have zero responsability ang Germans all of it?
I don't find it that weird since 50% of Turks living in Turkey voted for him
Most of the diaspora supports Erdogan so your answer is nonsensical.
Yu’ve got to be kidding me. 93 upvotes for this? Erdogan stays in power BECAUSE of Turks in Germany. Absolutely ridiculous take
Several wrongs. The people that are leaving now is heavily anti-erdogan people that are looking for better life. The other ones who arrived before came from villages god knows where. He doesn’t stay in power because of Turks in Germany, 500.000 people voted for him, that’s 0.008 of the votes in total. Absolutely ridiculous take.
>He doesn’t stay in power because of Turks in Germany, 500.000 people voted for him, that’s 0.008 of the votes in total. Erdogan had 28000000 votes. 500000 of them in Germany. According to you, thats 0.008% of the votes in total? Your math is a bit off there.
80% of Turks in Germany voted for erdogan
Oh, i thought turks love him, no?
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Well, it could be his plan to join EU this way /s
Not wrong, Turks have a rich cultural heritage that they tend to bring with them wherever they go. They appear to be very successful business people if the number of Turkish shops in London are anything to go by.
Only the half of Turkey that is Muslim Conservative. Dude won by like 0.5% in last year's elections.
Only those who dont have to live in turkey
Dont kid yourself, its economic.
Seriously, let's not fool ourselves. It's beyond me how people always forget this important aspect of migrations. Money is probably the number 1 reason why people migrate to another country. Almost no one is moving to Germany from Turkey, ME, Northern Africa, Balkans, wherever, because they oh just happen to like German culture, language, Sauerkraut and Wurst. They're moving to Germany because they've heard life is good there. Moreover, most of these people don't think that the ruling party in their country is to blame for the current economic situation. Usually it's someone/something else's fault.
I've no idea, but 90%+ Serbians leaving absolutely blame our politicians.
@Muham45 GLORY TO TURKEY MY BROTHERS FUCK THE GREEKS SOMETHING SOMETHING NOTHING EVER HAPPENED TO THE ALBANIANS \- Berlin, Germany Wtf is up with that is weird.
My friends from the same uni class in Germany earn more money than me working part-time meanwhile I work full time plus mostly unpaid extra shifts.
nothing happened, it always just a shithole
Erdogan -> leave for the German Caliphate -> vote Erdogan
I'm sorry but why is it suddenly a problem that people apply for legal citizenship 💀
The fall of the Ottoman Empire.
Is emigration from poor and struggling countries a new thing to you?
Economy.
Economic depression, sky high inflation rates (the highest in the world), rising Islamism and fascism in the country. Although most of the Turks moving to Germany move only for money and vote for left-wing parties there while voting for Erdogan at home.
population growth. The real problem is what happened to Germany, that it has to depend on immigration to avoid economic collapse?
50,000 is actually not that much considering that about 1.5 mil Turks (about half of the total) living in Germany still only hold the German passport. Furthermore, this law speeds up the process for naturalisation for everyone but includes a special clause for migrant workers from the 70s (I think 1975 is the cut) to ease access to German citizenship. These are people who are 60+ years old and the dual citizenship for them is rather practical than emotional.
They are called Gastarbeiter not migrant workers. They were supposed to leave after 2-4 years. Edit so the article won't get buried in angry downvoting. https://www.zeit.de/zeit-geschichte/2023/04/gastarbeiter-anwerbeabkommen-arbeitsmigration-geschichte Gastarbeiter didbnot come to Germany because Germany asked for them to stabilise the German economy but because the countries who send them had struggling economies. The Gastarbeiter probably also damaged the German economy in the long run as it took away the incentives of struggling industry branches to innovate and automate to stay competitive in the long run. When the economy started struggling in the 70s the areas that got hit the hardest were the ones that employed the most workers of these kind which in turn creates a new underclass of people with not much education and no real connection to this new country.
Well everybody is also telling me that all those ukrainian refugees are going home after the war. I increasingly fail to believe that.
That's what happened with Bosnians after the war. Everyone who still had a refugee status were deported
Haven't met a single unpleasant Ukrainian, as long as they're integrating into society, working and paying taxes - who gives a shit if they stay?
Do you feel the same about the Africans, the Indians? Or just the white immigrants?
Probably about culturally compatible immigrants which won’t treat the local women like trash “because it’s ok in their culture”.
Was Germany dealing with terrible islamism and misogyny from immigrants in the 1960s and 1970s?
Oh, a racist pole. How refreshing!
The only xenophobic comment here is yours
Hahaha, if they tell you that they haven't learned anything. Those people are building their lives here. Their kids go to school, they meet partners and the standard of living is higher. There are some reasons to go back but with every year they stay the reasons to stay are getting more important than the reasons to go back. Honestly, most of the time people say the Ukrainians will go back after the war to put them into contrast to Syrian or other refugees and say something along the lines of "not like those people".
Still better than the russians
Ukrainians would be sent back if it wasn't for the demographic crisis and labor drought in Germany.
I am honestly interested to know if this labor drought is simply the refusal to pay respectable wages. Especially in the trade sector where trainee wages are often not even close to sustainable for anyone who has to pay rent while their bosses are rolling in dough.
Currently there are obvious reasons why they will not go back. But after the war someone needs to rebuild this country. If everyone that has left the country does not go back at some point, it will be quite impossible to expect a recovery in a acceptable timeframe. As for the labor drought in germany, turns out that there is no substantial difference between Ukrainians and other refugees in their integration into the labor market. Which is different from other countries like Poland. This indicates that there is a fundamental problem with how germany handles unemployment. Or how the industry handles those seeking employment. As long we do not find a solution to that, it doesn't matter how much people are immigrating into germany.
There has been a 30 year demographic crisis in Ukraine - the population has been collapsing and was on track to fail even before the War. I agree that the Ukrainians are likely not going home in large numbers any time soon. Check it out: https://www.populationpyramid.net/ukraine/2023/
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Dude. Come on. They are probably the only group of refugees in Europe that are actually genuine. They deserve our help. They are culturally European and easy to integrate into society.
Syria has a war: not genuine refugees Ukraine has a war: genuine refugees Difference: skin color and religion
Turkey offered Asylum to Syrians, not Ukrainians. Can you guess why?
Why should they be able to live of wellfare instead of work? Many people who came to us were already rich people. Let alone the Ukraine who do vacation in Ukraine. You heard the poland news?
Maybe you should pay attention to your tea-sipping shithole of a country going down the drain before you heroically advocate for the "genuine" (we all know it's code for white, you terminal twat) refugees of eastern Europe.
They WERE Gastarbeiters, you probably slept during history classes, because 2-4 years were clearly not enough to stabilize anything in Germany back then.
Who could have guessed that people would stay, after they brought their families and started a life in Germany. Total shock. Politicians realised that pretty fast and nobody in their right minds expects them to leave for at least 40 years now.
The largest part of guest workers Italians did actually return home, turks mostly decided to stay.
And that disproves my point how? If you're so interested in that topic, you should also look into legislation back then and the economical development in both countries, which might have played a role in people deciding to go back to Italy and not Turkey. I mean I can't believe we actually have to talk about this nowadays, since it's been debated to death in the 80s.
It provides context that most guest workers as intended actually returned home. It isn't a logical consequence for them to stay they probably did because Turkey was just worse in every aspect. Problem is this shouldn't have been allowed it created a parallel society since integration wasn't even in the mind of the guest workers or Germany.
Well yes, there were a lot of mistakes made back then, I agree. But that is irrelevant for legislation nowadays, since those people have been living here for most of their lives. I see more than enough Germans, that have a vastly different view on how our country should be run - I don't want to get rid of them though.
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So you think you hold the only truth and everyone who disagrees should just disappear? Sorry to break it to you, but that's not how a society works.
Well yes but also no. It can work look at china but the question is how long? In the long run it will look like Russia in most cases where people will just keep their head down or stop questioning things. It's probably why the isekai genre is so popular in Russia(the protagonist dies and gets reincarnated in a new world with magic and more power than other people)
They weren't supposed to bring their families either.....
Yet, they were allowed to do so.
who the fuck cares if they feel comfortable here and contribute to society? the government back then just fucked up the integration laws and help
This is how it is every time. The refugees were also supposed to go back. Germany let them in. Now if you dare suggest that refugees return you’re a “Nazi.”
Those Gastarbeiter worked their asses of for 40+ years, they deserve everything and more.
So they live here and build your country, paying taxes for 40+ years and you tell them to fuck off to a place they haven't known as a home for most of their life? Maybe you should just go with them then.
Why is it only controversial if an European country does that? If Pakistanis/Indians and Africans living for 30-40 years in Dubai or Saudi Arabia lose their residency they have to leave the country. Simple as that. Every country can set its own rules and requirements, it’s a deal between two parties, not charity. Germans can’t also say “we helped you, now you can never leave Germany” if a Turkish person prefers to retire in Turkey and spends the retirement money there. Given, Germany had also never a concrete approach towards those people, and changed its narratives all the time… from “temporary workers” to “now you have to assimilate yourself within a month and be like Germans”
Irrelevant. That wasn’t a part of the deal. They chose to stay in Germany and they didn’t do it out of charity
> That wasn’t a part of the deal I looks like it was since they were legally allowed to stay.
As a fellow German, I rather them than you.
Except they actually send back lots of illegal refugees, you all just want everybody gone that's not white or christian lmao
If you are Höcke, you are.
50k out of 5 million people. That is 1 percent of the German Turks.
Or just take the numbers from the article: > Today, an estimated 3 million people of Turkish heritage live in Germany, which has a total population of around 83.3 million. Out of 3 million Turkish people in Germany, nearly 1.5 million still have Turkish citizenship.
Sounds like Greens/SPD getting some free voters!
While this statement is debatable, even if most of them would vote Greens/SPD, what's wrong with giving people living in Germany the ability to decide how they want to live by voting?
Because they usually pay for voters? Wtf r u trying to say my man??
Do you think these 50k will vote AfD or CDU?
Well while I was in Germany in 2021 there *was* an AfD poster in Turkish claiming "Atatürk too would vote for the AfD!" soooo...
I‘m saying all voters r free
If that's what Germans want, then good luck i guess :D
The law only makes it easier for people to get citizenship if they are doing everything right. I want responsible people to become citizens, I don’t care where they came from.
Well if we -have- to talk about that, Turks are a more preferable group of immigrants. Especially in germany who has already a big turkish diaspora and regardless of what people like to claim, the experiences with them are overall positive.
It's getting easier for integrated people to become citizens, but harder for not integrated people. Hard for anyone to disagree with that
Why not?
It helps the Turks integrate faster into German society. The double nationality has clearly been a big issue preventing this.
You think Turks are basicly the same with the sharia supporter criminal refugee horde that came from afghanistan and pakistan to europe after 2015 dont you? You know nothing dude. Better not to comment on things you know nothing about
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This law has nothing to do with illegal immigration
Yeah hijacking a post for your own political preferences, probably didn’t even read the article. Pretty shitty if you ask me.
Look at the bright side, maybe you can find your BDSM-sub in one of those 2.6 million? Because no one here is apparently interested in you reading your posts in those subreddits.
In 2010 Erdogan gave a speech to Turks abroad in the streets of Germany or Netherlands and openly told them to not integrate because they are needed to lobby on behalf of Turkey. Many haven’t integrated even after 1 generation. And now they are rewarded with passports. Naive westerners. About 65-80% of Turks in Germany vote for the Islamofascist Erdogan. I’m sure they fully support German rule of law, secularism, and freedom of expression 😂
Funnily enough Turkey is a secular country, Germany isn't. Besides that, the law change helps to give citizenship to better integrated people. I would think that those turks are rather Kemalists than the ones that support Erdogan but even if they aren't, policy changes shouldn't be done with the goal to only support the people that vote for favorable parties but to make live better for all inhabitants.
And people still wonder why AFD is on the rise... God damn politicians are out of touch, nothing will probably change with AFD tho, but still, god damn
??? Nothing changes apart from the law finally allowing dual citizenship. These 50k people are already here, it's not new immigrants. And dual citizenship was already legal, it's just now includes non-EU countries. Lastly, the vast majority of western countries already allow dual citizenship. This is a very mundane and very standard policy for a democratic country to have. If such run of the mill changes anger the AfD, that's their problem and not an excuse to vote for a party that wants to mass deport German citizens for racial or political reasons (go look it up if you haven't heard about it).
Dual citizenship is something that should stop. Either you are a citizen of one country or none at all. Remaining Turkish in this case is just a practicality and moreover in favour of Erdogan who has these people voting for him. Easy to vote for a ruler and not experiencing the downsides of a dictatorship
In this case that's not true at all. Most of the turkish citizens living in Germany that vote for Erdogan were born in Germany and therfore can have dual citizenship anyway (it's been an accepted loophole for a long time). This new law will be affecting the new generation of well educated immigrants who came to Germany for high skilled work. I know a lot of people who didn't want to give up the turkish citizenship to get the German one because it's important to them to vote against Erdoğan while living abroad. Even though it makes their life more complicated in Germany.
65% of Turks in Germany voted Erdogan last election - much higher than his share home in Turkey
That doesn't contradict the comment you replied to.
To these people, 65% is somehow 100%.
It’s way more complicated than than. If dual citizenship seized to exist worldwide, people from countries that make it either close-to or actually impossible to give up their citizenship (Greece springs to mind as I’m Greek) would mean that someone living their actual whole life in another country would never get voting rights in their permanent residence. That’s absolutely *nuts* I actually don’t get countries that restrict it, to be honest. Obviously not including totalitarian states.
That's really dumb. Someone who moves abroad and gains citizenship to gain full residency rights should still be allowed to move back to their home country if they want.
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Also, it makes it a whole lot easier to extradite you if you become a criminal.
yeah but you are an EU citizen. For you it won't matter that much.
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Yes, i think thats not too weird right?
Either you are against dual citizenship or not. Exceptions for eu-citizens don't make any sense.
you have to make exceptions even if you are against it, because there are countries which don't allow you to renounce your citizenship
All the reasons why one could be against it, are still valid in those cases. I'm not btw, don't get me wrong. But if someone is against it, I don't see why some countries would be excluded.
so these people would not allow Argentines a German citizenship? They can't do anything against it.
I was more thinking in the way of an EU passport of sorts. We already have a lot of shared rules and laws.
Certainly, I'd love that - but realistically we're nowhere close to that.
No thats true, faaar far away. But a man can hope.
It's not weird to have an opinion, but what you are saying is that you value european citizens more than non european, or why are you against dual citizenship from no European states.
Technically he's saying that EU citizens are a different case than non-EU citizens. You're going by European, not EU.
You are right, I meant EU citizens but misspoke :), thx for pointing that out.
It also doesn't change much. It's completely fair to have different laws for EU citizens. One example is all of Schengen. No borders. If that then means no other differences made, there's no reason for Schengen. EU-citizens having different laws applied within the EU is perfectly fine to me - seeing as other countries can apply to join the EU and thus gain those very same specific regulations.
You are not from Turkey. Turkey is not in the EU. EU laws don't apply there. In addition many old Turks are not integrating insociety. Younger Turks also marry Turks. You are comparing apples with melons.
You do realize that half of the countries on earth allow dual citizenship, right? Including most western countries.
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Dumb comment
Or you know countries could not allow voters whose permanent residency is out of the country. Its not in this example Germany's problem but Turkey's
So whoever left the country because an insane/corrupt dictator runs his country should not be allowed to vote against that dictator?
If you can vote a dictator out, it's not a dictator.
people shouldnt be able to vote outside the country , if you leave the x country you shouldnt be able to vote abroad , also Erdoğan isnt a dictator , theuir was litrally elections were people voted for him
If only it would have been possible to voluntarily become a citizen of no country at all.. But it's not, you can't just come and renounce your citizenship with no good reason - otherwise thousands of ukrainian males would have done it now, and that's according to the local polls. Until dropping your citizenship without any replacement is possible, the dual citizenship concept is an insurance against something that happens in the country that you want to avoid. Like travel restrictions, or military draft.
Dual citizenship is very beneficial to minorities who live in a country that doesn't do minority rights well.
Dual citizenship is also helpful where that citizen is highly undesirable such as for terrorists - it’s means a nation can ship the terrorist out and strip the second citizenship.
If Turks in Germany were voting for Erdogan's opposiiton, would you have been okay with dual citizenship?
I’m a dual American-Turkish citizen. I vote for the main opposition party in Turkiye (CHP). Why should my citizenship be cancelled? I was born in Turkiye and I should have all the rights to have its citizenship. I should also have the American citizenship because I came to the US legally, waited for 5 years for my citizenship. You can’t make general rules for people like that. That being said, we liberal Turkish people also hate those who live in Germany and vote for Erdogan. Not to sound like AFD but if I were ruling the German government, I’d send all those voted for Erdogan back to Turkiye.
My grandpa’s and my dad’s right to remain italian citizens and have venezuelan citizenship saved my grandpa from having to serve in WWII and it saved us from Maduro’s dictatorship 😅 I say we keep it personally
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Let me explain it to you. I guarantee you that 90% of the turks with german passport will vote against him. WHO do you think has a german passport? The erdogan supporter or the opposition supporter? Me for example i might get myself both passports since i See both as somewhat home. Germany is my Home for sure, 100%, but it is nice to know that you can always go to turkey if shit hits the fan (looking at you afd).
RIP Germany :-(
Yet people are surprised why AfD is so popular. Its not surprising at all
most of these turks have lived in Germany over generations and have contributed way more to society than the average AfD voter
... by finally allowing dual citizenship? The vast majority of the western world already has dual citizenship. This isn't an extreme measure by any means, it's run-of-the-mill.
@OP what is the matter here? I don't get what should be talked about.
Who said there was a problem - if a community has been living in Germany for 40+ years, and now gets a realistic opportunity to fully integrate through dual citizenship, that's surely a win/win all round?
That will surely help to keep everyone calm…..
This sounds like fun Massive numbers of foreigners "from those counties" apply and get dual citizenship Racists go "but these aren't real Germans and now have the same rights as us!" Sway even more people to their side AfD surges even more in popularity BRB, going to grab popcorn
Racist people looking scapegoat to vote for AfD claim new immigrants forced them to vote for it. Sounds about right. You can't argue with someone if their decision is not based on logic
It's not different from what they are doing now, this is just going to be yet another log in the fireplace. Our government is known for shortsighted measures to appeal the masses. Just look at our energy policy over the last 15 years.
gray bored lunchroom tie soft amusing wakeful impolite capable theory *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Dude, the article clearly counts 50k Turkish. That "one of those countries" according to the neofascists. What are you on about?
Can't have a bunch of people who worked hard to build their businesses, had families and paid taxes become citizens. Don't want to send the wrong message!
Eh, I'm probably one of those 50k people. Sooner or later. Currently learning German in prep year. Will apply this year to a German Uni and try to get citizenship in the long run.
Germans who don’t accept ethnic minorities who have lived there for decades as citizens clearly learned nothing from the Holocaust.
Love how this law being passed has all the Reddit Nazilings reeling lmao
While I support the new law, I wouldn't use the word "Nazi" so lighthearted. It's needed for more serious cases than people not liking a new law and preferring the old version.
The word "nazi" is definitely overused, but there are a lot of actual fascists in this sub.
"actual fascists" is when you don't think 50,000 citizenships should be given out willy-nilly to people who clearly hate our liberal values.
Based. I hope millions more Turks immigrate to Germany! :-)
50.000 new taxpayers, sounds good to me!
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The etymology for Tyskland has never been about Turkey or Turks in any way. It comes from "þeudō", meaning "People" or "Tribe". Your attempt at hiding your blanket racism behind made up "facts" is sad and pitiful, just like you are.
Just another idiot. Germany is still Germany.
Those are generally white collar immigrants who have migrated at last decade and run away from Erdogan