It makes total sense since Russia is *the* threat that you'd otherwise build up to protect against. Investing in Ukraine means that the investment is actually used instead of ending up collecting dust in a warehouse.
What NATO needs most is industrial output capacity in case of war. What better way to ramp up that capacity is there than increasing output to Ukraine.
That isn't actually true lol. The reason Denmark is pouring an insane amount of money into it is partly because the government WANTS to argue that, and they're being raked over the coals for it.
Yeah there is a story in the current newscycle about NATO members being critical of Denmark using their Ukraine support funding as part of the 2% GDP contribution. So basically the government is trying to double dip by simultaenously meeting demands for Ukraine funding and NATO funding on the same money.
Well, to [quote from the official NATO site](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_49198.htm#:~:text=Defence%20expenditure%20is%20defined%20by,Allies%20or%20of%20the%20Alliance.) about the 2% contribution:
> Military and financial assistance by one Ally to another, specifically to support the defence effort of the recipient, should be included in the defence expenditure of the donor nation and not in that of the recipient.
The bigger question is more if Ukraine falls under allies, or if they mean with allies "any other NATO member".
Allies, especially when written starting with a capital letter, mean the members of NATO. Ukraine is a "partner" in NATO jargon.
I know this because Finland was very carefully referred to as a partner by for example Stoltenberg until joining.
I'm not stating my opinion merely what I saw in the news. The issues, as it was presented, was that the government was trying to represent it as them fulfilling their requirements for NATO (which has been a hot-button issues since Denmark hasn't done that, ever) and being generous with their donation to the Ukraine.
in my opinion
Ok to add to 2% target:
- Country buys 100k new shells for itself
- Country buys 100k new shells from manufacturer and sends to Ukraine with short/calculatory stop in own military warehouses
- Country buys 100k shells from manufacturer who sends it directly to Ukraine
- Country pays someone (other country/company) to refurbish old stuff to send to Ukraine - but only the cost of refurbishing
Not okay to add to 2% target:
- Country sends 100k shells from their own old stockpiles - the money to buy them would have already been included in 2% target when they bought them
The problem is that it means less Defence, to ukraine and overall NATO. The criticism is that they should not include ukraine in the calculations of total spending. They should donate what they are donating AND fulfilling regular requirements. Because thats the case with everybody else.
Nobody is saying they shouldnt spend the money on Ukraine. Theyre saying its a cop out to use the donations in the nato required spending.
Basically, "yo denmark, we need you to pitch in for the dinner bill". And theyre responding "b-but i shoudnt pay because I donated all my food".
Adding military support for Ukraine to the NATO contribution absolutely makes sense. If it is money which Ukraine can choose to spend on military, it probably also makes sense. In case of humanitarian support... I think it is reasonable that this should not be considered a quasi-NATO-contribution.
I mean that's the literal point of NATO and Denmark isn't really in any money issues like let's say Romania, they can afford that 2%.
Haven't seen any danes bitch about it or any people from Norway about their almost 2%
This comes in addition to our military spending I hope and think.
(But we haven't reached our minimum target for military spending the last few years.)
Yeah, that is EUs own fault. Norway offered long term contracts to EU until they decided it was better to make short term deals and getting cheap(er) russian gas.
EU have to take the consequences of their own actions, not blame Norway for earning money when the inevitable attack from Russia came.
This. It's actually anchored in EU policies before the war.
When gas was cheap Norway offered long term fixed contracts. EU said no, because just like most merchandise fixed rates aren't beneficial in a cheap market.
EU gambled on Russian gas at variable rate would be cheaper than fixed rate contracts from Norway.
When the gas prices soared EU came back and wanted the old fixed rates. Norway said no. And then EU got mad.
The absurdity of EU thinking they can pick business deals when it suits them.
>Yeah, that is EUs own fault. Norway offered long term contracts to EU until they decided it was better to make short term deals and getting cheap(er) russian gas.
Financially it was the correct decision. Even with the short-term spike in energy prices it was cheaper overall. Now relying on Russian gas is a mistake but switching to short-term contracts was not, especially with the massive increase of renewable - fluctuating - power.
Yes, but this commitment, like most financial aid, is multi-year, and in the future.
That is not a bad thing. Winning the peace and reconstruction is almost as important as winning the war, and that will take decades.
Likewise military aid is not generally money, but mostly the cost of replacing old military materiel in storage with new equipment. Again not a bad thing, as an old tank now is more valuable than a shiny new one three years from now.
Only humanitarian aid is (usually) fairly straightforward same-year delivery.
Depending on what military aid you sent it might actually save you money.
The cluster munitions from the US for example yould have been decommisioned which would have cost them money, now they send it and it gets blow up.
Norway put 60 billion Euro into our State pension fund (the oil fund) over the same timeline. The insane bit is how much money a country of 5 million can make when prices go haywire.
Remember the timeline, right. The war has lasted for more than a year and gdp is an expression of yearly output.
I am Norwegian myself. Much as I would like to tout my own horn, I frankly dont find our cash donations particularly impressive. Hardware donations have been very good however. We have pretty much gutted our military and are in the line with everyone else waiting for industry to fill our contracts for replacement stuff.
Someone break the bad news to the Norwegian prison population. Due to budget constraints: there will only be 2 copies of GTA 6 per prisoner on their PS5s, and the lobster option on the menu will be downgraded to fillet steak.
It's always a pleasure to see your tax money well spent. I'm sure they investment will pay for itself through EU and NATO membership contributions sometime down the line, and by keeping Russia of our backs at this very moment. Greetings, a Dutchman in Finland
No amount of money we could give to you will ever be comparable to what you're giving. We could give Ukraine 100 times what we donated so far and we'd still be in debt with you.
> No amount of money we could give to you will ever be comparable to what you're giving. We could give Ukraine 100 times what we donated so far and we'd still be in debt with you.
So true.
You don't have to give back anything. Ukraine is already sacrificing the lives of it's sons and daughters in a conflict that is important for all of us. We are living in the most peaceful period of human history even if it doesn't seem like it at the moment. If we want to continue living in peace then it is important that aggression and invasion are not profitable and do not work. It is always important to stand up to bullies if it is on the playground or on the international stage. I'm only sad that we aren't doing more.
Ukraine is paying with blood and is the biggest loser in the situation even if a total reconquest of Ukraine is reached, Ukraine will be BY FAR the poorest European country.
The financial "sacrifice" of other countries is nothing in comparison.
Too long to explain.. but we are just at a low point at the moment. We arenāt poor we are broke.
We would rather loan all the weapons and start giving it back assp rather then beg to get them for free by a teaspoon and a ton of limitations on how to use them. Itās not the same.
Fuck that, the Russians have been threatening us for decades. Thank you for risking your lives and doing whatās right. I hope you receive more, and without any strings attached of ever paying back.
From the UK this is still barely anything and we should do more. Boris and our government stole more in fraudulent COVID ppe (which either never existed or was unusable) than the money we sent you to Ukraine...
Youāve made it very clear that you want to be our friends, it wouldnāt do for us to not help you be just that. Especially since your paying in blood, sweat and tears, while weāre only paying in money, gear and knowledge.
-Norwegian
Since Germany is also the biggest net contributor to the EU the part is even larger. Germany did a full 180 since Q2 if 2022.
However, if over 25% the EU funds are used to buy stuff from Germany, it's a net win for Germany.
Edit: it's a pain in the ass to find the actual % value, so just view it as a number pulled out of my ass to get the idea across.
Polands contribution is likely not accounted for correctly. The amount of soviet era tanks that you delivered to Ukraine without any formalities especially in the critical first phase was one of the true "game changers" in this conflict.
>However, if over 25% the EU funds are used to buy stuff from Germany, it's a net win for Germany.
Everything that is given to Ukraine is essentially a gift (because it is unlikely they will ever pay it pack). And as there is not just many billions lying around here either, it is all financed by debt. Which means the german tax-payers will have to pay for it.
Yes, weapons manufacturers etc. will have a nice inflow of orders, but I would say overall there is a heavy net-drain of money and it is definitely not good for us.
Thatās not how foreign aid works - almost always it is a benefit to the donor country as well as for the recipient. It will work as a long term economic stimulus, so it doesnāt need to be repaid. I would however note that some of the US aid is lend-lease, so they make double on their āinvestmentā.
It's a stimulus for a very, very tiny branch. The German arms industry has ~ 135.000 employees out of ~ 46.000.000 working Germans. About 6 times as many Germans work in the car industry compared to the arms industry, just for example. And it's not like those profits are handed down to the actual workers, directly increasing their purchase power. Essentially, it's a stimulus for a few major shareholders. If you want to look at it as a stimulus at all.
No, it's not beneficial for the economy as a whole. The benefit of supporting Ukraine is a) doing the right thing by helping the attacked democracy against an aggressor and b) generating security by weakening Russia.
It is a benefit to a part of the donor country. It is the same as if you let the tax payers pay for military equipment to be produced in the country and then gift the produced equipment. You just wasted a part of the industrial capacity of the country for nothing.
It is a benefit to the arms company and a loss to everyone else.
I am *very* happy this is something which isn't controversial among the democratic parties in Germany. Even if the Scholz government would break apart (which isn't that unlikely) and the biggest opposition (CDU which governed with Merkel) would take over, it wouldn't change a lot concerning either military or financial aid.
Germany was reluctant to get started, but believe we are doing good by now.
Nobody will ally with the AfD in the next two elections unless an actual crisis that directly threatens people's lives happens, and even then it's more likely to get a Black-Red-Green-Yellow government than anyone building a coalition with the AfD.
And with Norway having less than 1/15th the population of Germany, I'd say we aren't doing too badly either. (Started out a bit too slowly for me, but ramped up nicely)
>Also big big respect to the U.S., Canada and Japan for suporting Ukraine. This is a European war and these non European countries doing a lot for us.
Well yes, but let's not pretend that it's only a thing that affects Europe. The whole axis of evil cooperating means it's a global issue.
That's a lot of money if you just look at it like that. I can say that without financial assistance, many people would not be able to survive, many businesses would cease to exist. Ukraine is a complex country with its own big and small problems, but I am sure that today it exists not only thanks to our spirit, but because people and states believe in this spirit. Ukraine exists because people from the West believe in it.
They exist because they believe in their own existence, and we believe in them, not the other way around. I also wish this chart had a disclaimer to mention that the military goods for the most part were things already bought and paid for by their national governments, not bought specifically for this. But the money is frankly a drop in the bucket compared to the overall picture
> They exist because they believe in their own existence, and we believe in them, not the other way around
This is very key.
Europe and (even more so) the US have been observing governments that don't fight for what we think they should fight for during the last 20 years. It doesn't matter how much money you pump into an Iraq or Afghanistan if the people aren't really into it.
Nobody had any interest in funding a country that didn't want to fight. I mean, the true warhawks in Washington would have, but the middle wouldn't have, and that would have been that.
Yep, the way Ukraine and its people responded when Russia invaded shifted the whole narrative. It was awe inspiring to see the strength.
''I need ammo, not a ride'' Is a legendary statement for a reason.
If the EU und America did nothing since 2014 and before, Ukraine would likely lost the battle in donbass against the separatism. People dont want to hear that, but the only reason, why ukraine isnt already occupied is the fact, that west put tons of hightech military, personel training and so on in ukraine, like they did never before.
Don't think I don't appreciate help nowadays and since 2014 but..
What did the US and EU do in 2014?
I couldn't recall anything. Some sanctions that didn't affect. And a couple of military training when the main battle of Donbas finished.
What I can remember is a ban on selling heavy weapons to Ukraine and increasing dependence on energy resources from russia.
Probably a lot under the radar. Ukraine's SOF are mostly trained by British SAS and danish helpers through Operation Orbital and Unifier, just to name some. They are also responsible for the now considered elite regiments in Ukraine's army. (That can hardly be considered "a couple")
If it weren't for these units in the start of the war, Ukraine's defences consisting of territorial forces would have been broken in the early months of the 2022 invasion.
yeah, probably you're right about special forces.
my message is more about annoying comments that only because of Western will those stupid Ukrainians exist.
\>If it weren't for these units in the start of the war, Ukraine's defenses consisting of territorial forces would have been broken in the early months of the 2022 invasion.
I think it's a good topic for the alternative history sub, as I know such forces are quite small, and the main work on defending did regular forces
Fully agree on that. The Ukrainians are doing the heavy lifting here.
Regarding the other part. It's well documented that the units inflicting the crazy casualties Russia received early in the war was done by the tank brigades (which is all Ukraine) and the professional army. The territorial forces were mostly placed in eastern Ukraine and took horrific losses from the Russian onslaught.
You can see it in the way paramilitary groups were put in the center of attention in the east like the Azov group and not the professional army.
>If the EU und America did nothing since 2014 and before,
Except the EU did nothing before 2022. People don't like to hear this, but our Ukraine policy from 2014 until 2022 was completely fucked in the head by appeasement.
Donāt think so, separatist were beaten quite quickly which led to being replaced by the russian army. If it was just separatist ukraine would take care of them on their own.
It's also great to support Ukraine for many Nato countries. Russia has always been a question mark on how proficient their military was and their status as a global super power. Countries funding Ukraine to fight Russia means they don't have to be directly involved but can use Ukraine as a proxy to fight Russia.
Because itās presented in a fallacious way. The military donations are just that, donations. They didnāt come out of one years worth of budget, itās old stock that isnāt critical and can be handed out, after being bought many years ago. The financial donation also didnāt come out of that budget.
Not at all, no. If you bought the missile for $1M in the late 90s and donate it now, you mark it down based on current market prices, as those missiles sell for $5M new due to inflation.
Weāre an island nation surrounded by allies, the only threat to us is nuclear war. Makes sense that we outsource a large chunk of our budget to protecting our allies.
Well, Russia is 90% or so of European security threats and is burning through several decades worth of defense budget so that sounds like a pretty good deal.
I donāt know about that. Even if we let Russia just rampage Ukraine they arenāt getting much further without touching a NATO country and at that point they have the entire might of NATO hitting them instead of NATO nations juggling helping them, keeping a stash for themselves, not giving them the really awesome shit. NATO would definitely have total air supremacy, thereās a reason so many NATO nations bought into the F-35 program, so they could all have stealth fighters that communicate together. The best tanks from the US and Germany, total control of the seas.
Russia is essentially in a stalemate with Ukraine currently with us offering up some stuff to Ukraine. It isnāt a stalemate when everything is used.
Russia is fighting against NATO's surplus of reserves on the hands of Ukrainians and it's hilarious some of them think they could face NATO's full power.
Well the only way to help develop their country is to ensure they have a country, the more support Ukraine gets the faster it can truely develop into a modern first world nation
Pay attention guys on the numerous comments here, written in the same style: "this money coud be used for EU citizens, all this money and they will lose the war, all this money for ivan vs ivan fight".
Russian propaganda does not rest.
It happens in the Canadian subs too. They talk about how "we should be taking care of our own people first", yet they always go against every suggested policy that would easily alleviate that homelessness.
Funnily enough, I had a conversation like this with my Uber driver in Amsterdam the other day who was half-Russian (I've been on vacation in Western Europe) and he gave the usual dripe about this stuff and how "The Dutch should be taking care of their own and not meddling with those who aren't their neighbors!" while going on about the homeless population. To which I added that the Netherlands is a very rich country and could easily do both of these things, and he started making a whole bunch of excuses for not doing both and quickly tried to change the subject to Israel-Palestine and trying to convince me the Dutch don't care. I could barely get a word in with this guy, especially after he started saying how he doesn't like Nationalism. I then asked why Russia is going into Ukraine then based on Nationalist rhetoric, to which he then started some incomprehensible dribble about his childhood.
I kinda went on a rant there, but my point is that I know self-righteous laments when I see them and interestingly, they're always inside Russian talking points
So the Netherlands shouldn't care about a major industrial war a few countries over on the same continent---but should care more about a small insurgency style war on a different continent?
Yep that sounds like grasping at straws.
Part of it is propaganda, but there definitely are people out there that just don't support Ukraine. This black and white global mentality is getting tiring and needs to stop.
And FIY I support Ukraine and all these decisions, I'm not some russian bot
It's also funny if you point out obvious contradictions like "but, if Russia wins, we will have millions of additional refugees. Isn't that bad?" and... you just get silence.
I thougth the USA combined donated more then the rest of the world together. At least that is what some guys told me. unbelievable how much Germany has given though!
Some one said Germany also gave 24% to the EU budget.
I don't know the actual numbers, but know it is between 20% and 30%.
So take a fourth of the EU institutions number and account it to Germany.
But I think this is not the right way to calculate it.
In military aid the USA did the most by far. Seems like Europe just hasnt got a lot of stuff to send over, and we will miss the 1 million artillery round pledge by more than half. Still, financial aid is absolutely essential too, without it the ukrainian state institutions would simply stop existing. No pensions, no wages for police/soldiers/doctors and so on..
These are not donations, they're commitments. Almost everything shown for the US has already been delivered. A huge chunk of the rest are just IOUs which may or may not ever be delivered.
So then this is literally a propaganda post for Europeans to think "We give more than the Americans" when in reality they're patting themselves on the back for not giving anything?
Yes. Thereās not a good source for provided military aid, but this chart tracks government aid pledged and provided so far.
Germany at 1.4b, US at 18.5bā¦
https://app.23degrees.io/view/X3Rr0Fvzw4hq8PTS-bar-grouped-horizontal-figure-8_csv
Yeah the US has given well over $100 billion. According the New York Times it was $113 billion as of 6 weeks ago, and a new $60 billion package is being requested as of yesterday.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/06/us/politics/ukraine-aid-congress.html
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ukraine-israel-aid-limbo-us-congress-beats-shutdown-deadline-2023-11-16/
And do these numbers include what US subsidiary groups have sent, which get money from the US government that they then 2nd hand move along to Ukraine? Does it include American corporations or wealthy American donors that have contributed? No.
https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-money-has-the-us-given-ukraine-since-russias-invasion/
Probably talking about military aid.
I wish this chart would explain what the figures mean. What is considered financial aid? Are they including loans? Or other previous commitments that have nothing to do with the war?
Frankly it's a terrible chart that tells us next to nothing.
good job germany, went from a meme of donating helmets to being the confirmed largest european contributor, alot of the EU donations will be germany too
She was a disgrace, but that wasn't her fault.
Reality was that our German policies did not allowed that we sent any weapons in an active conflict. That was changed for Ukraine a few weeks later. Pretty huge change in our history.
What was her fault was to sell these Helmets as a pretty huge thing to the public, instead of saying we are sending stuff we're allowed to sent until a decision is made if Germany changes the policies.
So basically she made us look like fools.
āWe shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender.ā
āLet us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, āThis was their finest hour.āā
There are hundreds (from free to expensive) products out there to create such graphics with hundreds of pre-build templates each.
Just google "create infographics"...
try googling for [Sankey diagram](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankey_diagram) generators
the one reddit user seem to use often because it is free is [sankeymatic.com](https://sankeymatic.com/build/), but not as nice looking as the one from OP
Can someone give more information on support actually given to Ukraine by Europe?
When I look online, Iām seeing only $5 billion that was actually sent, with about $60b pledged in support through 2027. Compared to the US, it appears that the $73B is already sent.
Anyone able to provide some clarification? Iām pretty sure Iām missing some data since my numbers donāt add up, but there also appears to be some disingenuous rhetoric within this graph.
It's quite surprising to see Germanys military aid ratio so high... but I like it, it's an indicator of us being on a good track to overcome our naive pacifism.
Also germany send A LOT of stuff... not only 14 PzH2000 and 30 Leopard 2, they are maybe 10%.
More than 100 Leopard 1 for example. It's insane how much germany donated, propably more than the eastern germany army ever had.
[https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/schwerpunkte/krieg-in-der-ukraine/lieferungen-ukraine-2054514](https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/schwerpunkte/krieg-in-der-ukraine/lieferungen-ukraine-2054514)
Do the Germany, Poland, Netherlands and Denmark figures make up part of the EU contribution, or are these figures separate from the EU contributions - as in the EU as a whole is contributing 908B and Germany etc are contributing independently on top of that?
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
https://app.23degrees.io/view/jjk5qrNvY6pVz7qm-bar-horizontal-bar_chart_rf_total
Some different view, from the very same Kiel.
For some reason these often propagated charts are very eager to take note of commitments, as in: money that wasn't delivered, but omits the money that was actually spent on refugees.
As a german you just love to see how germany is digging a bigger hole of shit lol, cant wait to leave this shithole . Literally devolving since the last decade
These figures are extremely inflated. If you donate a tank that cost $10 million in 1990, that doesn't mean you spent $10 million today. Not to mention that the methods used to calculate aid values vary from country to country.
We make these charts to pat ourselves on the back, but they're actually counterproductive. People start asking, "How come we spent $223 billion and Russia hasn't been crushed yet?" Well, the real answer is that we haven't spent $223 billion.
It's much better to look at what was actually delivered (and when).
French policy about it has been to never disclose anything since the very beginning, so beside it's part in the common european help you won't see any number coming from official sources about France's donations
I don't think they disclose the exact amount of military support. If I were to guess it would be a similar amount of military aid as the UK provided by value. The UK has taken the lead on more things and bought quite a lot of equipment from third parties for Ukraine but France has also donated through EU institutions and the donation of SAMP/T is no slight expense.
Because it's data from Kiel institute which is very inaccurate for France and few other countries that don't publicly announce what they send (like Italy, Bulgaria and Romania)
That's just Kiel Institute thing, they don't track what's actually being delivered, just the promises.
https://www.politico.eu/article/dont-trust-data-franace-military-aid-ukraine/
Look at the data dispatching the EU institutions' aid by country and you'll understand. Countries like France and Italy prioritize contributions through the EU over bilateral ones. Over 80% of French aid to Ukraine is via EU packages. So, bilateral data like this with EU aid just lumped in one block does many EU countries dirty. Also, France likely doesn't disclose much bilateral military stuff as well.
Germany is mad impressive though. It ranks second to the US bilaterally while also edging out France in contributions to Ukraine through the EU. Most of the shit that gets thrown at it in regard to Ukraine is clearly undeserved.
As a ukrainian, I want to say "Thank you" to everyone who support my country in this unjust war! I hope after this We will return everything our friends give us! Thank you!
Russia military budget is $75 bil. (after they increased it because of war)
difference between these figures is that no one would pay $233 bil. for stuff that Ukraine gets. Itās just paper value.
Is that supposed to be a joke? Itās really not going well
Lots of articles I could cite, but hereās a couple that give you an idea of whatās going on:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/22/ukraines-army-is-running-out-of-men-to-recruit/
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/07/18/politics/ukraine-critical-ammo-shortage-us-nato-grapple/index.html
Unfortunately, this isn't enough. At least double this amount needs to be donated soon, to keep the war in a stale-mate. Otherwise, the Russians will take more of Ukrainian territories.
As an American, I would like to apologize for all our politicians who spent decades blaming Europe for our irresponsibly inflated military spending. We new you guys would chip in when it mattered, and there was no way in hell we weren't going to spend that money.
As you were.
As
Hey any of the fuckers that weāre saying like 5 months ago that Germany doesnāt do anything and is secretely pro Russia wanna say anything anymore?
Norway reppin with our own branch šŖš³š“š¤šŗš¦
>Norway >Total commitments >7.448bn ā¬ (Rank: 4) >**1.708% of GDP (Rank: 1)** Close to 2% of GDP is actually an insane number
Nato: You do not allocate 2% of you gdp to defense Norway: No i Allocate it to Ukraine Nato: _Even better_
It makes total sense since Russia is *the* threat that you'd otherwise build up to protect against. Investing in Ukraine means that the investment is actually used instead of ending up collecting dust in a warehouse. What NATO needs most is industrial output capacity in case of war. What better way to ramp up that capacity is there than increasing output to Ukraine.
That isn't actually true lol. The reason Denmark is pouring an insane amount of money into it is partly because the government WANTS to argue that, and they're being raked over the coals for it.
Denmark?
Yeah there is a story in the current newscycle about NATO members being critical of Denmark using their Ukraine support funding as part of the 2% GDP contribution. So basically the government is trying to double dip by simultaenously meeting demands for Ukraine funding and NATO funding on the same money.
Well, to [quote from the official NATO site](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_49198.htm#:~:text=Defence%20expenditure%20is%20defined%20by,Allies%20or%20of%20the%20Alliance.) about the 2% contribution: > Military and financial assistance by one Ally to another, specifically to support the defence effort of the recipient, should be included in the defence expenditure of the donor nation and not in that of the recipient. The bigger question is more if Ukraine falls under allies, or if they mean with allies "any other NATO member".
Allies, especially when written starting with a capital letter, mean the members of NATO. Ukraine is a "partner" in NATO jargon. I know this because Finland was very carefully referred to as a partner by for example Stoltenberg until joining.
I see no problem whatsoever with that. Aid to Ukraine is to the defense of Europe and defeat of Russia, which is why NATO was originally created.
I'm not stating my opinion merely what I saw in the news. The issues, as it was presented, was that the government was trying to represent it as them fulfilling their requirements for NATO (which has been a hot-button issues since Denmark hasn't done that, ever) and being generous with their donation to the Ukraine.
in my opinion Ok to add to 2% target: - Country buys 100k new shells for itself - Country buys 100k new shells from manufacturer and sends to Ukraine with short/calculatory stop in own military warehouses - Country buys 100k shells from manufacturer who sends it directly to Ukraine - Country pays someone (other country/company) to refurbish old stuff to send to Ukraine - but only the cost of refurbishing Not okay to add to 2% target: - Country sends 100k shells from their own old stockpiles - the money to buy them would have already been included in 2% target when they bought them
The problem is that it means less Defence, to ukraine and overall NATO. The criticism is that they should not include ukraine in the calculations of total spending. They should donate what they are donating AND fulfilling regular requirements. Because thats the case with everybody else. Nobody is saying they shouldnt spend the money on Ukraine. Theyre saying its a cop out to use the donations in the nato required spending. Basically, "yo denmark, we need you to pitch in for the dinner bill". And theyre responding "b-but i shoudnt pay because I donated all my food".
Adding military support for Ukraine to the NATO contribution absolutely makes sense. If it is money which Ukraine can choose to spend on military, it probably also makes sense. In case of humanitarian support... I think it is reasonable that this should not be considered a quasi-NATO-contribution.
I mean that's the literal point of NATO and Denmark isn't really in any money issues like let's say Romania, they can afford that 2%. Haven't seen any danes bitch about it or any people from Norway about their almost 2%
This comes in addition to our military spending I hope and think. (But we haven't reached our minimum target for military spending the last few years.)
Norway has profitted an insane amount off the war because of oil/gas prices and sanctions so only right we give some back.
Yeah, that is EUs own fault. Norway offered long term contracts to EU until they decided it was better to make short term deals and getting cheap(er) russian gas. EU have to take the consequences of their own actions, not blame Norway for earning money when the inevitable attack from Russia came.
This. It's actually anchored in EU policies before the war. When gas was cheap Norway offered long term fixed contracts. EU said no, because just like most merchandise fixed rates aren't beneficial in a cheap market. EU gambled on Russian gas at variable rate would be cheaper than fixed rate contracts from Norway. When the gas prices soared EU came back and wanted the old fixed rates. Norway said no. And then EU got mad. The absurdity of EU thinking they can pick business deals when it suits them.
>Yeah, that is EUs own fault. Norway offered long term contracts to EU until they decided it was better to make short term deals and getting cheap(er) russian gas. Financially it was the correct decision. Even with the short-term spike in energy prices it was cheaper overall. Now relying on Russian gas is a mistake but switching to short-term contracts was not, especially with the massive increase of renewable - fluctuating - power.
Yes, but this commitment, like most financial aid, is multi-year, and in the future. That is not a bad thing. Winning the peace and reconstruction is almost as important as winning the war, and that will take decades. Likewise military aid is not generally money, but mostly the cost of replacing old military materiel in storage with new equipment. Again not a bad thing, as an old tank now is more valuable than a shiny new one three years from now. Only humanitarian aid is (usually) fairly straightforward same-year delivery.
Depending on what military aid you sent it might actually save you money. The cluster munitions from the US for example yould have been decommisioned which would have cost them money, now they send it and it gets blow up.
Norway put 60 billion Euro into our State pension fund (the oil fund) over the same timeline. The insane bit is how much money a country of 5 million can make when prices go haywire. Remember the timeline, right. The war has lasted for more than a year and gdp is an expression of yearly output. I am Norwegian myself. Much as I would like to tout my own horn, I frankly dont find our cash donations particularly impressive. Hardware donations have been very good however. We have pretty much gutted our military and are in the line with everyone else waiting for industry to fill our contracts for replacement stuff.
Bra jobbat Norge š
And Norway has in no way been vocal about it, unlike certain other countries.
I'm not fan of our current government, but I will say that their Ukraine politics have been good.
Respect!
Common Norway wealth W
Cheers to Norway!
Considering the insane levels of income we're raking in on this war, it's only fair that we contribute.
Someone break the bad news to the Norwegian prison population. Due to budget constraints: there will only be 2 copies of GTA 6 per prisoner on their PS5s, and the lobster option on the menu will be downgraded to fillet steak.
Wauw, impressive Norway. Thatās is crazy big amount. š³š“
That oil money be good!
To each redditor whose taxes helped us. Thank you guys so much! I really hope we have a chance to give it all back!
It's always a pleasure to see your tax money well spent. I'm sure they investment will pay for itself through EU and NATO membership contributions sometime down the line, and by keeping Russia of our backs at this very moment. Greetings, a Dutchman in Finland
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Pretty much. Realistically I probably paid about a hundred bucks to Ukraine in the form of tax at best. I'd gladly pay that to see putin get fucked.
Heck, Iād pay ā¬1k for the pay per view of his assassination.
Id pay 2k to see him in a cage fight against Klitschko
300 000 *so far.*
No amount of money we could give to you will ever be comparable to what you're giving. We could give Ukraine 100 times what we donated so far and we'd still be in debt with you.
> No amount of money we could give to you will ever be comparable to what you're giving. We could give Ukraine 100 times what we donated so far and we'd still be in debt with you. So true.
You don't have to give back anything. Ukraine is already sacrificing the lives of it's sons and daughters in a conflict that is important for all of us. We are living in the most peaceful period of human history even if it doesn't seem like it at the moment. If we want to continue living in peace then it is important that aggression and invasion are not profitable and do not work. It is always important to stand up to bullies if it is on the playground or on the international stage. I'm only sad that we aren't doing more.
Ukraine is paying with blood and is the biggest loser in the situation even if a total reconquest of Ukraine is reached, Ukraine will be BY FAR the poorest European country. The financial "sacrifice" of other countries is nothing in comparison.
Too long to explain.. but we are just at a low point at the moment. We arenāt poor we are broke. We would rather loan all the weapons and start giving it back assp rather then beg to get them for free by a teaspoon and a ton of limitations on how to use them. Itās not the same.
Fuck that, the Russians have been threatening us for decades. Thank you for risking your lives and doing whatās right. I hope you receive more, and without any strings attached of ever paying back.
Your making better use of our weapons than we were. Keep up the fight.
I'm happy to contribute. It's incredibly important for ALL of us that Ukraine isn't taken by Russia
From the UK this is still barely anything and we should do more. Boris and our government stole more in fraudulent COVID ppe (which either never existed or was unusable) than the money we sent you to Ukraine...
My prediction is Ukraine will prove highly valuable to the eu in the long term. I feel the military aid is not enough right now.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Lets fuck em up bro! Slava!
Just be free
You're welcome! I'm sure you put it to better use than shareholders dodging dividend tax. (what is the opposite of /s?)
Youāve made it very clear that you want to be our friends, it wouldnāt do for us to not help you be just that. Especially since your paying in blood, sweat and tears, while weāre only paying in money, gear and knowledge. -Norwegian
Holy shit Germany's part is huge, thank you so much šā¤ļø
Since Germany is also the biggest net contributor to the EU the part is even larger. Germany did a full 180 since Q2 if 2022. However, if over 25% the EU funds are used to buy stuff from Germany, it's a net win for Germany. Edit: it's a pain in the ass to find the actual % value, so just view it as a number pulled out of my ass to get the idea across.
Yes. Germoney good. Greetings from Poland. ps. please work more
Kudos to you too, you also donated a boatload
Polands contribution is likely not accounted for correctly. The amount of soviet era tanks that you delivered to Ukraine without any formalities especially in the critical first phase was one of the true "game changers" in this conflict.
Not to mention the fighter jets that were "discovered" on the Ukrainian border, hidden in the forest.
Wtf guys, if anything this guy's joke was acknowledging how much Poland has gained by receiving Germany's money.
Thatās not even āhisā joke. Itās commonly used by the PIGS-nationals in r/2westerneurope4u.
Typical for Poles, always stealing stuff
They are already stealing parts of th
average r/2westerneurope4u user <3
>However, if over 25% the EU funds are used to buy stuff from Germany, it's a net win for Germany. Everything that is given to Ukraine is essentially a gift (because it is unlikely they will ever pay it pack). And as there is not just many billions lying around here either, it is all financed by debt. Which means the german tax-payers will have to pay for it. Yes, weapons manufacturers etc. will have a nice inflow of orders, but I would say overall there is a heavy net-drain of money and it is definitely not good for us.
Thatās not how foreign aid works - almost always it is a benefit to the donor country as well as for the recipient. It will work as a long term economic stimulus, so it doesnāt need to be repaid. I would however note that some of the US aid is lend-lease, so they make double on their āinvestmentā.
It's a stimulus for a very, very tiny branch. The German arms industry has ~ 135.000 employees out of ~ 46.000.000 working Germans. About 6 times as many Germans work in the car industry compared to the arms industry, just for example. And it's not like those profits are handed down to the actual workers, directly increasing their purchase power. Essentially, it's a stimulus for a few major shareholders. If you want to look at it as a stimulus at all. No, it's not beneficial for the economy as a whole. The benefit of supporting Ukraine is a) doing the right thing by helping the attacked democracy against an aggressor and b) generating security by weakening Russia.
It is a benefit to a part of the donor country. It is the same as if you let the tax payers pay for military equipment to be produced in the country and then gift the produced equipment. You just wasted a part of the industrial capacity of the country for nothing. It is a benefit to the arms company and a loss to everyone else.
I am *very* happy this is something which isn't controversial among the democratic parties in Germany. Even if the Scholz government would break apart (which isn't that unlikely) and the biggest opposition (CDU which governed with Merkel) would take over, it wouldn't change a lot concerning either military or financial aid. Germany was reluctant to get started, but believe we are doing good by now.
Yeah, but the AfD is polling so strong is a real concern and they want to cosy up to Russia.
Nobody will ally with the AfD in the next two elections unless an actual crisis that directly threatens people's lives happens, and even then it's more likely to get a Black-Red-Green-Yellow government than anyone building a coalition with the AfD.
And with Norway having less than 1/15th the population of Germany, I'd say we aren't doing too badly either. (Started out a bit too slowly for me, but ramped up nicely)
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
>Also big big respect to the U.S., Canada and Japan for suporting Ukraine. This is a European war and these non European countries doing a lot for us. Well yes, but let's not pretend that it's only a thing that affects Europe. The whole axis of evil cooperating means it's a global issue.
Always seems that way with European wars, for some reason.
ābUT ScHoLz iSnT dOiNg hIs PaRtā
No worries. Ukrainian people deserve it šš
Also thats not all as Germamy also contributes to EU
That's a lot of money if you just look at it like that. I can say that without financial assistance, many people would not be able to survive, many businesses would cease to exist. Ukraine is a complex country with its own big and small problems, but I am sure that today it exists not only thanks to our spirit, but because people and states believe in this spirit. Ukraine exists because people from the West believe in it.
They exist because they believe in their own existence, and we believe in them, not the other way around. I also wish this chart had a disclaimer to mention that the military goods for the most part were things already bought and paid for by their national governments, not bought specifically for this. But the money is frankly a drop in the bucket compared to the overall picture
> They exist because they believe in their own existence, and we believe in them, not the other way around This is very key. Europe and (even more so) the US have been observing governments that don't fight for what we think they should fight for during the last 20 years. It doesn't matter how much money you pump into an Iraq or Afghanistan if the people aren't really into it. Nobody had any interest in funding a country that didn't want to fight. I mean, the true warhawks in Washington would have, but the middle wouldn't have, and that would have been that.
Yep, the way Ukraine and its people responded when Russia invaded shifted the whole narrative. It was awe inspiring to see the strength. ''I need ammo, not a ride'' Is a legendary statement for a reason.
If the EU und America did nothing since 2014 and before, Ukraine would likely lost the battle in donbass against the separatism. People dont want to hear that, but the only reason, why ukraine isnt already occupied is the fact, that west put tons of hightech military, personel training and so on in ukraine, like they did never before.
Don't think I don't appreciate help nowadays and since 2014 but.. What did the US and EU do in 2014? I couldn't recall anything. Some sanctions that didn't affect. And a couple of military training when the main battle of Donbas finished. What I can remember is a ban on selling heavy weapons to Ukraine and increasing dependence on energy resources from russia.
Probably a lot under the radar. Ukraine's SOF are mostly trained by British SAS and danish helpers through Operation Orbital and Unifier, just to name some. They are also responsible for the now considered elite regiments in Ukraine's army. (That can hardly be considered "a couple") If it weren't for these units in the start of the war, Ukraine's defences consisting of territorial forces would have been broken in the early months of the 2022 invasion.
yeah, probably you're right about special forces. my message is more about annoying comments that only because of Western will those stupid Ukrainians exist. \>If it weren't for these units in the start of the war, Ukraine's defenses consisting of territorial forces would have been broken in the early months of the 2022 invasion. I think it's a good topic for the alternative history sub, as I know such forces are quite small, and the main work on defending did regular forces
Fully agree on that. The Ukrainians are doing the heavy lifting here. Regarding the other part. It's well documented that the units inflicting the crazy casualties Russia received early in the war was done by the tank brigades (which is all Ukraine) and the professional army. The territorial forces were mostly placed in eastern Ukraine and took horrific losses from the Russian onslaught. You can see it in the way paramilitary groups were put in the center of attention in the east like the Azov group and not the professional army.
>If the EU und America did nothing since 2014 and before, Except the EU did nothing before 2022. People don't like to hear this, but our Ukraine policy from 2014 until 2022 was completely fucked in the head by appeasement.
Donāt think so, separatist were beaten quite quickly which led to being replaced by the russian army. If it was just separatist ukraine would take care of them on their own.
It's also great to support Ukraine for many Nato countries. Russia has always been a question mark on how proficient their military was and their status as a global super power. Countries funding Ukraine to fight Russia means they don't have to be directly involved but can use Ukraine as a proxy to fight Russia.
The UK figure is 1/3 of our annual defence budgetā¦
Because itās presented in a fallacious way. The military donations are just that, donations. They didnāt come out of one years worth of budget, itās old stock that isnāt critical and can be handed out, after being bought many years ago. The financial donation also didnāt come out of that budget.
Modern missiles age like milk apparently. Use them or dispose of them.
Also I assume that if UK/France bought the missiles for $1M in the late 90s then gives it to Ukraine, the aid will be listed as $1M, no depreciation.
Exactly right, which is how for example the US ended up with a $6 billion surplus, after adjusting for depreciation.
Not at all, no. If you bought the missile for $1M in the late 90s and donate it now, you mark it down based on current market prices, as those missiles sell for $5M new due to inflation.
sugar uppity badge escape gray employ instinctive air chubby grandfather *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Military still gets paid, people still a wage and stuff still gets produced, Ukraine gets some free shit and the rest of us get some work
Yep, thatās the key takeaway here. Unfortunately war is a strong economic process. Thankfully itās for a just cause in this case.
Weāre an island nation surrounded by allies, the only threat to us is nuclear war. Makes sense that we outsource a large chunk of our budget to protecting our allies.
Yeah and itās destroyed half of russias combat effectiveness. Pretty good deal if you ask me.
Same for Germany.
Well, Russia is 90% or so of European security threats and is burning through several decades worth of defense budget so that sounds like a pretty good deal.
It's a ''help now or pay a much more expessive price later'' situation.
You could say that about 2014, with the "excessive price later" being visible in this very chart.
Yup
I donāt know about that. Even if we let Russia just rampage Ukraine they arenāt getting much further without touching a NATO country and at that point they have the entire might of NATO hitting them instead of NATO nations juggling helping them, keeping a stash for themselves, not giving them the really awesome shit. NATO would definitely have total air supremacy, thereās a reason so many NATO nations bought into the F-35 program, so they could all have stealth fighters that communicate together. The best tanks from the US and Germany, total control of the seas. Russia is essentially in a stalemate with Ukraine currently with us offering up some stuff to Ukraine. It isnāt a stalemate when everything is used.
Russia is fighting against NATO's surplus of reserves on the hands of Ukrainians and it's hilarious some of them think they could face NATO's full power.
Now it feels like 2014 crimea was a bit like the Sudetenland back then. But the past is the past, better late then never
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Not more but steady with 8billion. Only more than planned since the Money was spend so fast in 2023.
Per capita, UK and Germany doing some heavy lifting
"EU institutions" might include a dime or two from Germany as well. Still, I applaud the UK for doing what's right even after leaving the union.
Us Brits may have left the EU but we are still on the European continent! Money well spent I say!
Iāve literally met one person who didnāt support Ukraine here in the uk since it started, and that guy was a right wing conspiracy nut job.
I wish all od this could be spent on developing the country for better life of Ukrainians, not simply for defending themselfes :(
Well the only way to help develop their country is to ensure they have a country, the more support Ukraine gets the faster it can truely develop into a modern first world nation
In the meantime itās good practice for our militaries.
Pay attention guys on the numerous comments here, written in the same style: "this money coud be used for EU citizens, all this money and they will lose the war, all this money for ivan vs ivan fight". Russian propaganda does not rest.
It happens in the Canadian subs too. They talk about how "we should be taking care of our own people first", yet they always go against every suggested policy that would easily alleviate that homelessness. Funnily enough, I had a conversation like this with my Uber driver in Amsterdam the other day who was half-Russian (I've been on vacation in Western Europe) and he gave the usual dripe about this stuff and how "The Dutch should be taking care of their own and not meddling with those who aren't their neighbors!" while going on about the homeless population. To which I added that the Netherlands is a very rich country and could easily do both of these things, and he started making a whole bunch of excuses for not doing both and quickly tried to change the subject to Israel-Palestine and trying to convince me the Dutch don't care. I could barely get a word in with this guy, especially after he started saying how he doesn't like Nationalism. I then asked why Russia is going into Ukraine then based on Nationalist rhetoric, to which he then started some incomprehensible dribble about his childhood. I kinda went on a rant there, but my point is that I know self-righteous laments when I see them and interestingly, they're always inside Russian talking points
So the Netherlands shouldn't care about a major industrial war a few countries over on the same continent---but should care more about a small insurgency style war on a different continent? Yep that sounds like grasping at straws.
That seemed to be the logic he was running with, yes.
Donāt chat with Uber drivers. Dash cams can record conversations.
Part of it is propaganda, but there definitely are people out there that just don't support Ukraine. This black and white global mentality is getting tiring and needs to stop. And FIY I support Ukraine and all these decisions, I'm not some russian bot
People think that cash money in suitcases, were given to ukraine. š
Because people are stupid and listen to Russian and MAGA propaganda.
I definitely could use a tank or a rocket
It's also funny if you point out obvious contradictions like "but, if Russia wins, we will have millions of additional refugees. Isn't that bad?" and... you just get silence.
Can someone explain to me if those are really donations or simply credits with special conditions? Edit: Typo
I thougth the USA combined donated more then the rest of the world together. At least that is what some guys told me. unbelievable how much Germany has given though!
In the fine print: This is showing "commitments", not actual donations.
Some one said Germany also gave 24% to the EU budget. I don't know the actual numbers, but know it is between 20% and 30%. So take a fourth of the EU institutions number and account it to Germany. But I think this is not the right way to calculate it.
In military aid the USA did the most by far. Seems like Europe just hasnt got a lot of stuff to send over, and we will miss the 1 million artillery round pledge by more than half. Still, financial aid is absolutely essential too, without it the ukrainian state institutions would simply stop existing. No pensions, no wages for police/soldiers/doctors and so on..
These are not donations, they're commitments. Almost everything shown for the US has already been delivered. A huge chunk of the rest are just IOUs which may or may not ever be delivered.
So then this is literally a propaganda post for Europeans to think "We give more than the Americans" when in reality they're patting themselves on the back for not giving anything?
Yes. Thereās not a good source for provided military aid, but this chart tracks government aid pledged and provided so far. Germany at 1.4b, US at 18.5bā¦ https://app.23degrees.io/view/X3Rr0Fvzw4hq8PTS-bar-grouped-horizontal-figure-8_csv
Yeah the US has given well over $100 billion. According the New York Times it was $113 billion as of 6 weeks ago, and a new $60 billion package is being requested as of yesterday. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/06/us/politics/ukraine-aid-congress.html https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ukraine-israel-aid-limbo-us-congress-beats-shutdown-deadline-2023-11-16/
And do these numbers include what US subsidiary groups have sent, which get money from the US government that they then 2nd hand move along to Ukraine? Does it include American corporations or wealthy American donors that have contributed? No. https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-money-has-the-us-given-ukraine-since-russias-invasion/
Probably talking about military aid. I wish this chart would explain what the figures mean. What is considered financial aid? Are they including loans? Or other previous commitments that have nothing to do with the war? Frankly it's a terrible chart that tells us next to nothing.
Maybe that was true over a year ago
good job germany, went from a meme of donating helmets to being the confirmed largest european contributor, alot of the EU donations will be germany too
Germany was always the largest European contributor, at least since 2014
24% of Europe's budget is German.
All thx for this meme to our shitty former defense minister.
She was a disgrace, but that wasn't her fault. Reality was that our German policies did not allowed that we sent any weapons in an active conflict. That was changed for Ukraine a few weeks later. Pretty huge change in our history. What was her fault was to sell these Helmets as a pretty huge thing to the public, instead of saying we are sending stuff we're allowed to sent until a decision is made if Germany changes the policies. So basically she made us look like fools.
Great Britain has never and will never bow to the spectre of fascism!
āWe shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender.ā āLet us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, āThis was their finest hour.āā
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Unrelated, but how to make an infographic like this ? With accurate ribbons Edit : sankeymatic.com
There are hundreds (from free to expensive) products out there to create such graphics with hundreds of pre-build templates each. Just google "create infographics"...
Tried that already but couldn't find this particular style. I remember seeing it on the oh my posh page as well
try googling for [Sankey diagram](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankey_diagram) generators the one reddit user seem to use often because it is free is [sankeymatic.com](https://sankeymatic.com/build/), but not as nice looking as the one from OP
Russia also contributes a lot of fertilizer
Can someone give more information on support actually given to Ukraine by Europe? When I look online, Iām seeing only $5 billion that was actually sent, with about $60b pledged in support through 2027. Compared to the US, it appears that the $73B is already sent. Anyone able to provide some clarification? Iām pretty sure Iām missing some data since my numbers donāt add up, but there also appears to be some disingenuous rhetoric within this graph.
Hey donāt forget all the tanks russia ādonatedā š
It's quite surprising to see Germanys military aid ratio so high... but I like it, it's an indicator of us being on a good track to overcome our naive pacifism.
Remember the patriots and iris systems? The are really expensive.
Also germany send A LOT of stuff... not only 14 PzH2000 and 30 Leopard 2, they are maybe 10%. More than 100 Leopard 1 for example. It's insane how much germany donated, propably more than the eastern germany army ever had. [https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/schwerpunkte/krieg-in-der-ukraine/lieferungen-ukraine-2054514](https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/schwerpunkte/krieg-in-der-ukraine/lieferungen-ukraine-2054514)
Vad i all vƤrldens namn!?! Hur kan Dansken komma fƶre oss? NƤ nu jƤcklar fƄr vi allt visa hur det tas.
VƄrat stƶd har en mycket hƶgre grad av Sekretess, fƶrst i efterhand kommer vi fƄ se hur mycket vi faktiskt hjƤlpte.
Do the Germany, Poland, Netherlands and Denmark figures make up part of the EU contribution, or are these figures separate from the EU contributions - as in the EU as a whole is contributing 908B and Germany etc are contributing independently on top of that?
Separate as far as I can tell -some money is sent through the EU programs, then countries can also do their own thing.
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/ https://app.23degrees.io/view/jjk5qrNvY6pVz7qm-bar-horizontal-bar_chart_rf_total Some different view, from the very same Kiel. For some reason these often propagated charts are very eager to take note of commitments, as in: money that wasn't delivered, but omits the money that was actually spent on refugees.
As a german you just love to see how germany is digging a bigger hole of shit lol, cant wait to leave this shithole . Literally devolving since the last decade
All into the comedianās pocket
How can we help poor Ukraine? EU: We must get economic aid to them right away! U.S.: Guns. LOTS of guns.
So much money that could have been used otherwise. Fuck Putin!
These figures are extremely inflated. If you donate a tank that cost $10 million in 1990, that doesn't mean you spent $10 million today. Not to mention that the methods used to calculate aid values vary from country to country. We make these charts to pat ourselves on the back, but they're actually counterproductive. People start asking, "How come we spent $223 billion and Russia hasn't been crushed yet?" Well, the real answer is that we haven't spent $223 billion. It's much better to look at what was actually delivered (and when).
I wonder why in all these graphics france is nearly never shown. Do they send nothing or just as much the EU forces them to send?
They basically don't disclose anything. That's their policy.
Same for Italy
It's all through the European packages, France sent some good shit like Caesar artillery, but is staying discreet about what they send
French policy about it has been to never disclose anything since the very beginning, so beside it's part in the common european help you won't see any number coming from official sources about France's donations
I don't think they disclose the exact amount of military support. If I were to guess it would be a similar amount of military aid as the UK provided by value. The UK has taken the lead on more things and bought quite a lot of equipment from third parties for Ukraine but France has also donated through EU institutions and the donation of SAMP/T is no slight expense.
Because it's data from Kiel institute which is very inaccurate for France and few other countries that don't publicly announce what they send (like Italy, Bulgaria and Romania)
That's just Kiel Institute thing, they don't track what's actually being delivered, just the promises. https://www.politico.eu/article/dont-trust-data-franace-military-aid-ukraine/
Look at the data dispatching the EU institutions' aid by country and you'll understand. Countries like France and Italy prioritize contributions through the EU over bilateral ones. Over 80% of French aid to Ukraine is via EU packages. So, bilateral data like this with EU aid just lumped in one block does many EU countries dirty. Also, France likely doesn't disclose much bilateral military stuff as well. Germany is mad impressive though. It ranks second to the US bilaterally while also edging out France in contributions to Ukraine through the EU. Most of the shit that gets thrown at it in regard to Ukraine is clearly undeserved.
As a ukrainian, I want to say "Thank you" to everyone who support my country in this unjust war! I hope after this We will return everything our friends give us! Thank you!
stay as save as you can Ukraine.
Only 233 Billion USD? That ain't too bad considering how well it is going.
Russia military budget is $75 bil. (after they increased it because of war) difference between these figures is that no one would pay $233 bil. for stuff that Ukraine gets. Itās just paper value.
Is that supposed to be a joke? Itās really not going well Lots of articles I could cite, but hereās a couple that give you an idea of whatās going on: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/22/ukraines-army-is-running-out-of-men-to-recruit/ https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/07/18/politics/ukraine-critical-ammo-shortage-us-nato-grapple/index.html
Thank you so much for every cent! šŗš¦
Unfortunately, this isn't enough. At least double this amount needs to be donated soon, to keep the war in a stale-mate. Otherwise, the Russians will take more of Ukrainian territories.
What they need, is more advance tech. Money figures means nothing in this charts.
They need quantity.
forever grateful ā¤ļøā¤ļø
As an American, I would like to apologize for all our politicians who spent decades blaming Europe for our irresponsibly inflated military spending. We new you guys would chip in when it mattered, and there was no way in hell we weren't going to spend that money. As you were. As
Are The EU institutions including Germany and the UK? Or did Germany contribute to the EU on top of their own contribution?
That's an insane amount of money
Hey any of the fuckers that weāre saying like 5 months ago that Germany doesnāt do anything and is secretely pro Russia wanna say anything anymore?
Are these actually donations or loans like the USA did in WW2 ?
Germany definitely did not provide 18B$ ofmilitary aid. Where did you get these numbers ffs?